Men in the Playground [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Jagg

2008-02-02, 02:25 AM

Ok I hope I'm not making a redundant thread. I read Balkash's thread "I've got this friend" and skimmed Syka's the relationships woes thread (but it's nearing 50 pages and I wasn't prepared to slog through the whole thing). Nothings seems right to say what I want however, so I felt the need to start a new thread.

Men of the Playground

...where we can discuss secret men's business. Of course I'm not putting up a sign saying girls keep out, I want you girls to read, agree, disagree, tell me I'm a misogynistic pig if needs be.

The reason why I'm doing this is I see a lot of young guys on the boards here who are looking for something. Trying to find their way as it were through the trials of being a guy in today's society. I'm probably not the oldest guy here on the forum, so I'd like to encourage the other older guys to give their views about the issues I can see getting raised here.

I wonder how much of this is because of a lack of proper male role models in society and mens lives. We men don't get given a manual on what it means to be a guy, we need to fumble through and try and find meaning for ourselves. I know when I was a teenager and my parents divorced, the lack of a male role model to explain certain things made things a lot more difficult for me.

I also think it might be necessary to post some rules, but since I'm lazy I'm just going to copy Syka's rules and repost them here.

RULES. YOU READ THESE.
-Anything of a sexual nature, please PM to either myself or one of the regular advice givers. If you just want general opinions post something like: "I have this problem, but it is not board appropriate. Could one of you guys PM me?" I know from experience that you will in fact get help.

-KEEP IT NICE. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please don't be rude.

-Joking is all fun and games, within reasons. Please do not get derogatory.

Next post will be the advice I gave Balkash's friend and possibly a bit more if I have any energy left.

Cheers,

JAGG

Jagg

2008-02-02, 02:27 AM

*Sigh* Seems like the "friend" isn't the only one with confidence issues when it comes to talking to girls. Sheesh it's not THAT hard Balkash. *puts on the Fedora of explaining and lecturing +5*

Girls are people. Say you meet this fabulously gorgeous girl. For the sake of this demonstration lets call her Haley :haley: :smallbiggrin: You can be thog :thog::smalleek: She's the kind of girl that gives you that hollow feeling in your stomach, makes your mouth dry, your heart race and your palms sweat. Now if you are a teenage boy there is only one thing you are thinking about and it's going to be front of mind when you talk to her. So you walk up and lay your best move on her. :thog: Hey..um Haley, your hair...um nice today. Now :haley: being such a scary devine alien paragon, blows you off if she's nice, :haley: "beat it creep" or shoots you down in flames and makes you feel like an idiot if she's not nice.:haley: "As If fugly. I wouldn't be seen in public with you if you paid me, I'm now calling all my girlfriends to tell them what a loser you are." Girls are particularly good at rebuffing the kind of attention that they do not want (they tend to go for more mental wrestling than physical wrestling with their peers as they develop).

So BOOM you crash and fail. :thog: "Thog sad" (there are reasons why :thog: failed and I'll get to them in a bit). So you crashed and burned and now you start to question yourself. I'm not good enough for her, I'm too short, too tall, too fat, too skinny, too pimply, too weird, too young, too old too whatever. The NEXT time you see a girl you like you hear a little voice inside your head going Don't do it Thog, she'll just crush your feelings like bug, you don't need that, you're too orcish for her. It not worth it.. :thog: "Thog cry now and transfer affection to puppies". So you lose your nerve and it becomes a vicious circle and you end up being this nervous weird kid who doesn't interact with anyone and thinks girls are scary. :thog:"Arrgh run away from the pretty girl."

So here's where we get to the interesting bit - I hope. Girls are people, and unless you are Steven Hawkins's just as smart as you. You think she doesn't know what you are thinking about when you walk on up and try your move? You've gone in with certain expectations. Humans are social animals and they pick up on those telltale signs of attraction because millions of years of evolution have designed us that way. There will be things you don't even know are happening that give it all away. Widening of your irises, opening of sweat glands, pheremones etc etc that activate because you are thinking about :haley: as a potential partner. :haley: picks up on that. Now unless you are an Adonis with perfectly sculpted abs, large muscular arms, shapely legs and butt who looks damn good in his school uniform, excels in his studies, is kind to animals and small children, is known to help with the local charity, thinks Shakespear was a prince of men and has memorized "Macbeth", isn't full of himself, has a sense of humour, has short hair/long hair/ clean shaven/ unshaven/tattoo/no tattoo/nipple piercing/no nipple piercing/ blond hair /black hair /white skin/ dark skin etc whatever etc that comes pretty close to matching :haley:'s internal list of what constitutes her ideal man, your move is unlikely to result in her sweeping the books off the table and saying. :haley: "Oh Thog - take me now". :thog: "Thog look good with Axe".

:haley: doesn't know who you are, you don't know who she is and for most girls what you look like only makes up a small part of what attracts her to you. Now :haley: could be a complete and total bitch whose idea of fun is twisting guys around her fingers to get them to do her biology homework for her. She could also be your soulmate but unless you talk to her you will never know. So how do you get to talk to her to find out? You need to speak to :haley: with no expectations.. Talk to her if she is just one of the guys. :thog: "Hey Haley. Did you finish question in Xykon's class about the skeletal system yet? Thog have trouble with question 4". Once you are talking, and :haley: knows you're not just out to jump her bones, you'll find out pretty quickly if you would be good togther. You'll also build up credits with :haley: for when you make your move, because she's gotten to know you better and like's at least some of your qualities. :haley: "You're so kind to animals Thog and I like that about you".

If you are a good fit...great, if not, you haven't gone in with any expectations, so it's no skin of your nose right? :thog: "Thog have no nose."
*takes off fedora*

Jagg

2008-02-02, 02:31 AM

The problem with that is, eventually:
:thog: haley, it thog, how are you?
:haley: What is it?
:thog: thog want to ask haley if she want to go out sometime
:haley: Oh, but Thog, we can't. The problem is, we're good friends and I wouldn't want to ruin our friendship.
:thog: thog think we still be friends later!
:haley: Sorry, thog, but we can't and we won't, so I'm sorry, but no.
:thog: thog sad and depressed and rip jagg's throat out with axe.
<No offence Jagg>

Does anyone else here really HATE that line?

Ahh the old "I just want to be friends line" Phew a good one to start with. It'll take me some time to write this out. So i'm going to post this now and start typing madly in response.

JAGG

Thanatos 51-50

2008-02-02, 02:34 AM

rubakhin

2008-02-02, 02:52 AM

The reason why I'm doing this is I see a lot of young guys on the boards here who are looking for something. Trying to find their way as it were through the trials of being a guy in today's society. I'm probably not the oldest guy here on the forum, so I'd like to encourage the other older guys to give their views about the issues I can see getting raised here.

I wonder how much of this is because of a lack of proper male role models in society and mens lives. We men don't get given a manual on what it means to be a guy, we need to fumble through and try and find meaning for ourselves. I know when I was a teenager and my parents divorced, the lack of a male role model to explain certain things made things a lot more difficult for me.

Great, this thread is going to evolve into Project Mayhem.

Ahem. Anyway. So, uh. I assume that this thread will be 95% talking about the womenfolk. Probably won't be posting here much.

Midnight Son

2008-02-02, 03:18 AM

Jagg

2008-02-02, 03:26 AM

No, I just HATE that line with a passion. I'm decent at dealing with The Fairer Sex.

In fact, I'm sort of a feminist. Odd, I know.
I hearby offer my assitance in any man-matters, following the same caveats.
(PM the sex stuff)

Feminist eh? So you are against women being discriminated against, stereotyped, objectified, oppressed, etc etc? Excellent me too. In addition to that however I'm also against all those things applying to men. Yes girls I know that men being chauvanist pigs for most of recorded history means that sometime women feel the need for a little payback. But true equality means equal, not getting your own back.

There is even a word for seeking to equalize women's rights - feminism, and hey I'm all for that. Where the men's movement though? Ever hear much from them? Or is it assumed that hey, suck it up, you're a guy. I don't like the insidious ways that the media in particular tend to treat men in general as targets who are always depicted as inferior in some way. Take this ad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peOakx3ucLM The first time I saw it I laughed, and then I went...hang on a second. If that were reversed and the ad depicted female bits being mutilated...how long do you reckon it would last on the air?. meh rant over. But I think this goes towards many of the issues I se with young guys...the media is against them.

Now about that line Thanatos, the I just want to be friends line. It really depends upon what you are looking for. If you are you just out to have naughty happy fun time with as many women as possible, then your best just treating it like a numbers game. I know someone who was not special looking who had few redeeming features and couldn't be stuffed having a relationship with women. He'd walk up to women and say "Hey babe, you look hot, wanna (Insert four letter word not allowed on these forums)". Out of hundred women he'd get 99 slaps across the face, told to go away and introduced to boyfriends who wanted to pound him....and 1 that would say yes.

Is this really what you want though? Speaking for myself, no. I want (and am lucky enough to have) a real lasting deep connection with someone.

If you truly feel that a connection may be possible with a special someone. You make your move, and special someone does that, then you need to work on your ability to read others. It's unfortunately one of those things that you learn from experience, but the only way to do so is to interact with others. Which is why you should be doing the whole no expectations thing with everyone you meet. Learn those people skills boys. I would also never say :thog: "Thog want to ask Haley if she want to go out sometime." Oo bad move. Sounds casual, but isn't, and you're going in with expectations.

JAGG

Jagg

2008-02-02, 03:32 AM

Great, this thread is going to evolve into Project Mayhem.

Ahem. Anyway. So, uh. I assume that this thread will be 95% talking about the womenfolk. Probably won't be posting here much.

Ahh Rubakhin, you don't know me very well do you? If you like boys, hey I don't care. Gay men, are still men. Except that they have special issues. Some of which I probably don't have the experience to help you with. Any Gay older guys want to help out....feel free. But some common themes run with anyone trying to make a connenction in this world, be they Gay straight or whatever. There are also issues that apply to men whether they are gay or not, so feel free to talk those as well.

But Yes I would imagine there is going to be a lot of talk about that large mystery...womenfolk.

JAGG

Jagg

2008-02-02, 03:38 AM

I am a man in the playground. Any of you feel the need to learn about men in the playground, just ask me.

Wait...Strike that. Men don't ask how to be men, we just are. You come to me with any of your, "I'm all depressed and whiny" crap, I'll give you a swift kick in the rear and tell you to man up. Then I'll direct you to the nearest sports bar where you can watch men doing manly things.

Then I'll beat my chest, grunt, scratch my nads, and sit in my recliner in my skivvies with a pizza and a beer.http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/Dwarf71/Smileys/pint.gif

Yeah yeah, real men can't dance, can talk about beer for three hours, loves watching sport on T.V. and all the rest of the mould that society likes to crush us into. Lets leave the stereotypes behind us shall we Midnight rather than perpetuating them.

Edit. Dinner time. Be back later men.

bosssmiley

2008-02-02, 08:22 AM

Wait...Strike that. Men don't ask how to be men, we just are. You come to me with any of your, "I'm all depressed and whiny" crap, I'll give you a swift kick in the rear and tell you to man up. Then I'll direct you to the nearest sports bar where you can watch men doing manly things.

Then I'll beat my chest, grunt, scratch my nads, and sit in my recliner in my skivvies with a pizza and a beer.http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/Dwarf71/Smileys/pint.gif

Signed...and I'm an egg. :smallcool:

If you get tongue-tied around whoever you're attracted to then that's generally nature's way of telling you there are other things it wants you to work on first (like exams, or learning to drive, or making a good name in your first job, or whatever).

Just do whatever you find interesting and - soon enough - girls/boys/whoever will seek you out. I dunno why (the female mind especially is a bizarre and swirly mystery), it just happens that way.

Anyone wants me I'll be doing something with powertools. :smallwink:

Midnight Son

2008-02-02, 11:12 AM

Yeah yeah, real men can't dance, can talk about beer for three hours, loves watching sport on T.V. and all the rest of the mould that society likes to crush us into. Lets leave the stereotypes behind us shall we Midnight rather than perpetuating them.

Edit. Dinner time. Be back later men.But they're so much fun to perpetuate. I tell ya; life would be far less interesting if we didn't have stereotypes to poke fun at.

Oh, and real men can dance. They just don't go all ga-ga over the prospect of it.

EmeraldRose

2008-02-02, 11:25 AM

*grins evilly*

Men on the internet is just a crazy superstition...like Bigfoot or the Toothfairy! There's not really any men on the internet. It's all women!

:smallamused:

*jumps out of thread*

QueenOfMemnoch

2008-02-02, 11:32 AM

*grins evilly*

Men on the internet is just a crazy superstition...like Bigfoot or the Toothfairy! There's not really any men on the internet. It's all women!

:smallamused:

*jumps out of thread*
Seriously, you're all just Vael alts.
::follows ER out::

Blayze

2008-02-02, 11:34 AM

Where the men's movement though?

Well, here (http://www.cooltools4men.com/), here (http://eternalbachelor.blogspot.com/), here (http://www.glennsacks.com/), here (http://antimisandry.com/) and here (http://www.equalbutdifferent.blogspot.com/), for starters.

I have my issues with feminism, too. I don't believe that a movement that has, to my knowledge, not done anything for men could possibly be considered to be a movement interested in equality. All I've seen is "Special treatment for women" across the board.

I'm a cynic through and through, but I tend to keep to myself most of the time. As a result, I observe what goes on in society. From the "Prepare your daughter for working life: Give her less pocket money than your son" posters that were everywhere back when I was in Primary School (Indoctrination into gullible minds is the foundation of education, but still...), to the ranting from the women at the office where I work about how their boyfriends suck (Just yesterday, my co-worker Stacey had an argument with her boyfriend. Afterwards, she stated "This is why I hate men." and started ranting, knowing full well that I was sat only three desks away.).

Two days ago, the mailwoman (Oh, I'm sorry. Mailperson. Bloody stupid political correctness...) who goes between our employer's sites all day, asked me if I was going upstairs to the other office, and that if I was, then I could deliver a letter for her. I told her that I wasn't, and that I was just going to the toilet.

Yesterday, she made a point of either ignoring me or flat-out shunning me ("I'm not speaking to you."), and I get the whole spiel about how she's got arthritis in both knees, etc, etc (Which, after dealing with the hundreth old git to have fallen over a slight indentation in the pavement- Sorry, I mean a pothole- even the most caring person learns to tune out), and how I was such a bad person for refusing.

That got me thinking about a subject I have been thinking about for quite some time. We all know about chivalry, yes? Or at least, what it amounts to today. Well, why does it seem as if we are under obligation to engage in it? Letting some old fart or pregnant woman have your seat on the bus... Sure, they need the seat more than us young'uns do (Or at least, that's what we're led to believe), but *why* do they always hobble over to us guys and give us disapproving looks?

Obligation. They think we're obliged to help them. It's like altruism (Personally, I don't believe altruism actually exists, as there's always some return for the giver. Recognition, praise, the feeling that they're a good person, etc. That means that there's no way it can be selfless. Ergo, there's no way altruism can be altruism.). They think we must do it, simply because... Why, exactly?

I've seen precious few women stand up in such a case. Men have definitely been the majority in that regard. But why? Because we're more willing to? Perhaps, if it's been indoctrinated more into our minds that we must. And it has.

"Go on, let her win."

I first heard those words years ago, playing Sonic 2 with my younger sister, Rachel. Every time I was winning? Those words. If I got the item that causes both players to switch locations (Thus putting her behind in the race, most often than not)?

"Swap controllers!"

Rachel would all but shout those words, tears in her eyes. Mum would deliver her spiel about how I would be a "good brother" if I let her win. Now, where have we heard words like those before?

"You'll be a good brother if you let her win."
"You'll be a good person if you do this."
"Go on, be a man. Suck it up."
"A real man would/wouldn't..."

Doesn't sound as innocent as just another game of Sonic 2 now, right? Sacrifice. Chivalry. Giving women advantages. Taking on suffering and disadvantages just because we happened to be born differently. Things we are considered to be obligated to do. Things we must do, if we do not want to be looked at with disdain.

These days, giving any of my LAN buddies a manly hug (Or more to the point, being on the receiving end of a bone-crushing manly bear-hug) would elicit yells from nearby idiots, making disparaging comments about our sexuality (Or is that "sexualities", because they're insulting more than one person?), despite the fact that few things must feel manlier than almost breaking your friend's ribs.

If I were more paranoid (Paranoia helps these days), I'd probably suspect some plot attempting to lessen mens' bonds with each other, combined with the comments to the tune of "You must have a girlfriend/have sex/go out drinking/smoke/do drugs or you're worthless" that I get at work for being a single virgin who doesn't abuse his body, leading to us guys becoming more materialistic (The alcohol, drugs and deathsticks) and depenent on how women view us.

Does it all come back to self-esteem? "Altruism", tricking yourself and/or others into believing that you're selfless, telling yourself that you're a good person? Dependency, reliant on ways in which we can be controlled (Supply and demand. Take away the supply of cancersticks, or threaten to, and what happens? Smokers become worried. This can lead to panic buying. Take away being seen as a good person in the eyes of others, and what happens? Depression. The feeling that "Things were good, back when others approved of me. I must regain that feeling!"), allowing our emotions to be manipulated and our actions guided.

Sometimes, I feel like a rat in a maze. Whichever way I turn, there's no way out, no correct path. I feel like I'm being led along by the nose, with the promise of cheese if I'd only just do what's "requested" of me... and that most of my fellow rats don't notice it.

Edit: But, to be honest, if given the choice between my life as it is and living clueless, I'd have to stick with this one. I wouldn't want to be the rat who's conditioned to jump through the flaming hoops.

---

Thank you for riding on my Train of Thought. Please dispose of the remains of your tickets in the receptacles provided.

Arang

2008-02-02, 11:50 AM

These days, giving any of my LAN buddies a manly hug (Or more to the point, being on the receiving end of a bone-crushing manly bear-hug) would elicit yells from nearby idiots, making disparaging comments about our sexuality (Or is that "sexualities", because they're insulting more than one person?), despite the fact that few things must feel manlier than almost breaking your friend's ribs.

(Sorry for not replying to the rest of your post, it was a good one)

Hugs are, if not less acceptable, less used than high fives, punches and the occasional handshake. If the sign of someone being a friend is them punching you regularly for no apparent reason and expecting you to do the same, you're probably male.

Of course, if you're so manly you cannot hug people, you're doing it wrong.

Kaelaroth

2008-02-02, 01:07 PM

*grins evilly*

Men on the internet is just a crazy superstition...like Bigfoot or the Toothfairy! There's not really any men on the internet. It's all women!

:smallamused:

*jumps out of thread*

That makes sense. But I'm on the internet, and I'm a boy? So when I hit 18 my... fall off...? :eek:

*jumps off thread*

*jumps off internet*

North

2008-02-02, 01:09 PM

Im a Men!

Wheres the beer?

Raiser Blade

2008-02-02, 01:23 PM

I'm a young men. Does that count?

Vespe Ratavo

2008-02-02, 01:26 PM

Hm...at what point does a boys become a men? :smallconfused:

Shadow

2008-02-02, 02:32 PM

Hm...at what point does a boys become a men? :smallconfused:When you stop asking that.... Seventeen days later.

bosssmiley

2008-02-02, 02:39 PM

Hm...at what point does a boys become a men? :smallconfused:

If you have to ask... :smallwink:

Zombie pixe

2008-02-02, 02:41 PM

when they lose all sence of Why and How they got here.

im still a boy :smallamused:

North

2008-02-02, 02:42 PM

I'm a young men. Does that count?

So is that a preman or a miniman?:smallwink:

Raider

2008-02-02, 04:24 PM

Well, here (http://www.cooltools4men.com/), here (http://eternalbachelor.blogspot.com/), here (http://www.glennsacks.com/), here (http://antimisandry.com/) and here (http://www.equalbutdifferent.blogspot.com/), for starters.

I have my issues with feminism, too. I don't believe that a movement that has, to my knowledge, not done anything for men could possibly be considered to be a movement interested in equality. All I've seen is "Special treatment for women" across the board.

I'm a cynic through and through, but I tend to keep to myself most of the time. As a result, I observe what goes on in society. From the "Prepare your daughter for working life: Give her less pocket money than your son" posters that were everywhere back when I was in Primary School (Indoctrination into gullible minds is the foundation of education, but still...), to the ranting from the women at the office where I work about how their boyfriends suck (Just yesterday, my co-worker Stacey had an argument with her boyfriend. Afterwards, she stated "This is why I hate men." and started ranting, knowing full well that I was sat only three desks away.).

Two days ago, the mailwoman (Oh, I'm sorry. Mailperson. Bloody stupid political correctness...) who goes between our employer's sites all day, asked me if I was going upstairs to the other office, and that if I was, then I could deliver a letter for her. I told her that I wasn't, and that I was just going to the toilet.

Yesterday, she made a point of either ignoring me or flat-out shunning me ("I'm not speaking to you."), and I get the whole spiel about how she's got arthritis in both knees, etc, etc (Which, after dealing with the hundreth old git to have fallen over a slight indentation in the pavement- Sorry, I mean a pothole- even the most caring person learns to tune out), and how I was such a bad person for refusing.

That got me thinking about a subject I have been thinking about for quite some time. We all know about chivalry, yes? Or at least, what it amounts to today. Well, why does it seem as if we are under obligation to engage in it? Letting some old fart or pregnant woman have your seat on the bus... Sure, they need the seat more than us young'uns do (Or at least, that's what we're led to believe), but *why* do they always hobble over to us guys and give us disapproving looks?

Obligation. They think we're obliged to help them. It's like altruism (Personally, I don't believe altruism actually exists, as there's always some return for the giver. Recognition, praise, the feeling that they're a good person, etc. That means that there's no way it can be selfless. Ergo, there's no way altruism can be altruism.). They think we must do it, simply because... Why, exactly?

I've seen precious few women stand up in such a case. Men have definitely been the majority in that regard. But why? Because we're more willing to? Perhaps, if it's been indoctrinated more into our minds that we must. And it has.

"Go on, let her win."

I first heard those words years ago, playing Sonic 2 with my younger sister, Rachel. Every time I was winning? Those words. If I got the item that causes both players to switch locations (Thus putting her behind in the race, most often than not)?

"Swap controllers!"

Rachel would all but shout those words, tears in her eyes. Mum would deliver her spiel about how I would be a "good brother" if I let her win. Now, where have we heard words like those before?

"You'll be a good brother if you let her win."
"You'll be a good person if you do this."
"Go on, be a man. Suck it up."
"A real man would/wouldn't..."

Doesn't sound as innocent as just another game of Sonic 2 now, right? Sacrifice. Chivalry. Giving women advantages. Taking on suffering and disadvantages just because we happened to be born differently. Things we are considered to be obligated to do. Things we must do, if we do not want to be looked at with disdain.

These days, giving any of my LAN buddies a manly hug (Or more to the point, being on the receiving end of a bone-crushing manly bear-hug) would elicit yells from nearby idiots, making disparaging comments about our sexuality (Or is that "sexualities", because they're insulting more than one person?), despite the fact that few things must feel manlier than almost breaking your friend's ribs.

If I were more paranoid (Paranoia helps these days), I'd probably suspect some plot attempting to lessen mens' bonds with each other, combined with the comments to the tune of "You must have a girlfriend/have sex/go out drinking/smoke/do drugs or you're worthless" that I get at work for being a single virgin who doesn't abuse his body, leading to us guys becoming more materialistic (The alcohol, drugs and deathsticks) and depenent on how women view us.

Does it all come back to self-esteem? "Altruism", tricking yourself and/or others into believing that you're selfless, telling yourself that you're a good person? Dependency, reliant on ways in which we can be controlled (Supply and demand. Take away the supply of cancersticks, or threaten to, and what happens? Smokers become worried. This can lead to panic buying. Take away being seen as a good person in the eyes of others, and what happens? Depression. The feeling that "Things were good, back when others approved of me. I must regain that feeling!"), allowing our emotions to be manipulated and our actions guided.

Sometimes, I feel like a rat in a maze. Whichever way I turn, there's no way out, no correct path. I feel like I'm being led along by the nose, with the promise of cheese if I'd only just do what's "requested" of me... and that most of my fellow rats don't notice it.

Edit: But, to be honest, if given the choice between my life as it is and living clueless, I'd have to stick with this one. I wouldn't want to be the rat who's conditioned to jump through the flaming hoops.

---

Thank you for riding on my Train of Thought. Please dispose of the remains of your tickets in the receptacles provided.

That was the best thing I've read about the subject in awhile.

To some up this thread, Humanities Knowledge of the female mind.............................................. .................................................. ........................................

Quinsar

2008-02-02, 04:26 PM

Hm...at what point does a boys become a men? :smallconfused:

it all depends on what kind of man you are. I became a man when I was able to drink and got a 64 camaro.

Gem Flower

2008-02-02, 04:43 PM

As a girl, to comment on an earlier post, yes. We can also tell when you're about to say some stupid thing that your friend put you up to. Trust me, we know. You will never predict our plot to read your minds! MWA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

rubakhin

2008-02-02, 05:16 PM

I have my issues with feminism, too. I don't believe that a movement that has, to my knowledge, not done anything for men could possibly be considered to be a movement interested in equality. All I've seen is "Special treatment for women" across the board.

I'm a cynic through and through, but I tend to keep to myself most of the time. As a result, I observe what goes on in society. From the "Prepare your daughter for working life: Give her less pocket money than your son" posters that were everywhere back when I was in Primary School (Indoctrination into gullible minds is the foundation of education, but still...)

So, uh. You think it's okay that women are paid less then men? I can understand the emotions behind pretty much everything else in your post, but that I can't get behind.

You know, the whole thing about the feminist movement is erasing the idea that women have to rely on/are obligated to receive special treatment from men. That's the whole point. The reason why guys get disapproving looks when they don't help out people who need more medically is because there's the perception in the culture that men are stronger and supposed to sacrifice for women. This comes from centuries of patriarchal societies emphasizing feminine weakness. You don't run into feminists who believe that men shouldn't be allowed on lifeboats, you don't run into feminists who think that only men should stand up on the bus for old folks.

(You DON'T. And if you do, they're not feminists, but selfish, misogynistic women who are against everything the movement stands for, and do more damage than anything else because it gives the idea to people such as yourself, comrade, that all feminists are like that.)

The feminists are trying to getting rid of these perceptions, which benefits men as well as women. And what about dual-income households becoming the norm, so that the monetary pressure isn't on the men? And the increased number of women attending medical school, becoming mathematicians and scientists and serving the people as a whole in their field? That is because of the feminists too.

However! There's plenty that's wrong with the Western American culture's perception of men that is probably the fault of the feminist movement. It's not right that there should be T-shirt with "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them", it's not right that every American mother on TV is smart and capable while the father is a troglodyte. Women should not be empowered by the degradation of men. These are all missteps and against the true feminist ideals of equality. Real feminists do not hate men, but love them as people and as men, and do not have the insecurity and weakness that leads to hypocrisy and misandry. You do have feminists like Valerie Solanas (author of the S.C.U.M. Manifesto, shooter of Andy Warhol) who end up hating men because they are very broken people with a lot of rage inside them that needs a whipping boy. But they're just that, broken people who are taking their emotional problems out on men. Real women do not need to hate men to feel strong. That is not a healthy way to live, that is not a healthy ideology.

This is probably the lowest point in the feminist movement, a time of transition where the two cultural perceptions of women - as being on a pedestal, and as being as capable as men - co-exist. Which gives the impression that women want it all. This is not true. In reality, the feminists are moving towards taking the pedestal down. A lot of women in this day and age, at least the ones I know, will ask you not to open doors for them and to split the bill at the end of the date instead of having you pay for it all. This is right thinking and the right mode of life, and it wouldn't be the reality fifty years ago, before the feminists.

I think that perhaps the previous generation is abusing feminism - I'm probably right in saying that you're older than me at least by a good five or ten years (I am nineteen) - as led to do so both by the mixed messages of the transitional period and by the culture of greed in the capitalist states that came to a head in the eighties. However, I believe that the situation is much improved among the women that are just maturing now.

In spite of everything, I think that if we work towards these feminist ideals with true eglatarianism in mind, the situation will be better for both men and women if we can achieve the feminist goals.

(As for your sister, I got that same exact treatment regarding my kid brother Aleksander, down to the letter. I think it's just that the younger ones of any gender are coddled to hell and back.)

... Incidentally, is it just me, or does it seem like whenever I talk about social philosophy I sound like the next sentence out of my mouth should be "Comrades!! Look towards Lenin and Stalin, and the glorious future beneath the dictatorship of the proletarian!" :smallsigh: There's that Soviet programming coming out again.

Zar Peter

2008-02-02, 05:28 PM

I hope you're right that it's a matter of age. I'm 34 and when I hear about feminism I don't have the best thoughts. I think I mostly heard from the feminists you described here:

And if you do, they're not feminists, but selfish, misogynistic women who are against everything the movement stands for, and do more damage than anything else because it gives the idea to people such as yourself, comrade, that all feminists are like that.

But I am for equal payment and stuff, I just also give my place for old or pregnant women in public transportation systems. I don't see myself as feminist, I'm just a human.

Anyway, it's a bit amusing that the first discussion in the men thread is about feminism.

Grey Paladin

2008-02-02, 05:41 PM

Blayze: Your post rings true,
they claim they are "inferior" (which is untrue) when they ask us to treat them differently, then ask us to treat them equally when it benefits them, such double standards sicken me.

My apologies for the following post, I judge people by what's between their ears, not legs, my anger is directed at the government exploiting the innate social/submissive quality more often pronounced in females then in males, by encouraging it in citizens of both genders beyond any natural level.

Society is being feminized as a whole, consumerism, the media, education, and the government are the forces at work.

From age 0 we are taught that the material world is all that matters, we are taught that we should depend on others, to work as a team, to be integrated into society and become easy to control - we are taught that money is the key to happiness, we are taught that by having a car inferior to that of our neighbor makes us inferior to them - we are taught that buying products (and thus earning money) is the only road to a good life.

The endless wave of propaganda keeps hitting our screens - a common citizen, brainwashed and isolated from reasonable opinions, believes what he sees in movies and serieses to be true. In these stories the bad guy (In the Western media, anyway) is always the big, muscular ultra-manly lone wolf, representing all that the government fears that their citizens become - and thus shown in a negative light, while the hero is often small, puny, well trimmed and feminine (even if the hero is physically masculine, watch his morals, vice versa for the villain), the hero is shown to be completely superior to the bad guy. (This is just one example, but is the most common one)

It is okay for a female to slap a male to show her anger, for a male to do so to a female makes him a monster.

This double standard is one of thousands of other things we are taught, when we are still young we rebel, but eventually we give up and accept the unfair double standards as righteous, fear of punishment has taught us better then to rebel against our superior female counterparts.

We are taught that being masculine is a crime.

They call it growing up.

What is the purpose behind all this? to make us submissive,easy to control, and encourage us to work as hard as we can so the government can milk us for our money like the cows we are.

Blayze

2008-02-02, 06:50 PM

So, uh. You think it's okay that women are paid less then men? I can understand the emotions behind pretty much everything else in your post, but that I can't get behind.

Equal pay for equal work. I read somewhere that the whole "women are paid less than men" issue was caused by the comparison of the average earnings of men versus the average earnings of women. One question: Which gender is more likely to do manual labour, work longer hours or put themselves at risk and therefore receive Danger Money?

I tell you, working in a nice, cozy office is Easy Street. Nice, dull paperwork, no more than a minute or two away from the toilet or canteen, protected from the weather? Sign me up. Oh, wait a minute. I'm there already. The point I'm trying to make is, that if that's how they worked out their figures, of course they'd come out that way.

And about the posters regarding this issue, my beef with them was that there were *anywhere* in that school. There should have been *nothing* on those walls that wasn't related to the classes that were being taught in those rooms. Children are impressionable at the best of times (Adults are just impressionable idiots), but then again the best way to get someone to believe what you have to say is to get them while they're incapable of questioning it.

And what about dual-income households becoming the norm, so that the monetary pressure isn't on the men?

I'd say that these days, you probably *need* two incomes to stay afloat, so rather than the monetary pressure being spread out, it's on everyone. Probably just the economy going to pot, though.

I'm probably right in saying that you're older than me at least by a good five or ten years (I am nineteen)

Twenty-one (Twenty-two in a few short days). I'm legal anywhere. :P

And if you do, they're not feminists, but selfish, misogynistic women

The problem with that is that there's so many different 'types' of feminist that there must be a civil war or twenty going on right now. And guess what? From the outside, if that is the case, it looks like fourteen different children were given hand-painting kits and asked to work together to recreate famous paintings on the same sheet of A4 paper.

In spite of everything, I think that if we work towards these feminist ideals with true eglatarianism in mind, the situation will be better for both men and women if we can achieve the feminist goals.

Gah. How about we strive for equalist goals? :)

Ceres

2008-02-02, 07:42 PM

We men don't get given a manual on what it means to be a guy

I do believe you are mistaken :smalltongue:

http://www.ekarlsson.se/images/manliness.jpg

The Vorpal Tribble

2008-02-02, 07:45 PM

Raistlin1040

2008-02-02, 07:58 PM

I've said this before, but I'm not sure I've said it correctly.

I have nothing against feminists. However, I do dislike the feminist movement, because it's very inconviniant for an American male teenager. As presented by the media, we are sex-crazy, childish, stupid, and irresponsible, while the calm, gentle, mature older sister/cousin/friend/girlfriend is often shown as the sypathetic protagonist.

Allow me some examples. Life with Derek isn't as bad as some other shows, but it still has mistakes. I sypathize with the Derek character, but he is presented as annoying and childish and petty and irresponsible, while his sister Casey is so put upon by having to deal with him.

So many shows on TV are like that, it drives me insane. I try to be chivalrous, opening doors and the like, but the feminists (which are an increasing population around where I live) will get mad because they think they're getting special treatment, but you can't ever really treat a girl as you'd treat a guy, without breaking social taboos.

My best friend and I screw around all the time. We fight, wrestle, trash talk, like best friends do. But if he was a girl, I would be expected to not hit, not fight, ect.

So I'd say I support feminism as a concept, but when put into practice, it's too hard to deal with it, as well as social norms.

On a slighty unrelated note, almost all married couples will say that their partner is their best friend, but girls won't date a guy because they're friends? What's up with that?

Quincunx

2008-02-02, 08:06 PM

VT: I did already give the long, truthful explanation of "let's keep ourselves friends", and it was ruder*. Relationships Woes & Advice #3, somewhere in the teens.

Blayze: Unfortunately, 'equal pay for equal work' does not happen even within the same job. Yes, there is no solidarity within feminism.

Grey Paladin: I have the collected commentaries of a blazing lunatic you may be interested in reading. . .*rips out the rear signature of Latter Days, hands it over*

Generally: I had expected this thread to crop up closer to Gender Bender Week as a bastion of the unbent and unbroken. Try not to get it locked before then and we may just derive some humor from that.

*The short, truthful explanation is too insulting to post.

rubakhin

2008-02-02, 08:10 PM

Equal pay for equal work. I read somewhere that the whole "women are paid less than men" issue was caused by the comparison of the average earnings of men versus the average earnings of women. One question: Which gender is more likely to do manual labour, work longer hours or put themselves at risk and therefore receive Danger Money?

Does manual labor really pull in that much? :smallconfused: I keep hearing a lot about people in construction making a ton of cash. I don't know the first thing about how make money, though. (Also, that's a pretty crappy way to compile those statistics, yes.)

Aaaanyway, tangent.

Twenty-one (Twenty-two in a few short days). I'm legal anywhere. :P

Ah, so you are also very young! (Working in office, though, you probably have a lot more contact with women of the previous generations than I do.) I think maybe you'll grow out of all this anger that you have ... Of course, there's no way of saying "you'll grow out of it" that doesn't sound condescending, so, er, let's pretend that I magically found a way to say it that is as respectful as I mean? :smallannoyed:

I don't think that maturity and strength is about learning how to become jaded, but learning how to become idealistic, especially in this Western American society ... whatever else you do in life, you can't hate. And you can't judge, either. The problems with society should not be ignored, rather everyone should struggle to understand them and the reasoning behind them, but you can't let it make you hate. Really, you should try to ignore and avoid the women who are bad people, or call them out on it when you can, and stay around the strong, capable, self-confident women who believe in true equality. I hate it when I see men in their late twenties and thirties, or even later, who were hurt at some point or simply started off bitter and never decided to work towards seeing the good in humanity. They end up getting very twisted, their perception of people and women is nothing short of sinister. They end up unhappy and alone. I wouldn't wish that kind of heart on anyone. Honestly, you can't hate ...

The problem with that is that there's so many different 'types' of feminist that there must be a civil war or twenty going on right now. And guess what? From the outside, if that is the case, it looks like fourteen different children were given hand-painting kits and asked to work together to recreate famous paintings on the same sheet of A4 paper.

*muse* I don't think this is true. I'm not really involved so much in the inner workings of feminism, but there's a lot of overlap in the LGBT community of which I am a member. I think at this point it's basically divided between sane people and nuts. I really think there will be an improvement in the future.

Gah. How about we strive for equalist goals? :)

Vhat iz vrongk viz egalatarianism, tovarishch? >[ Well, "equalist" then. Equality is a better word anyway.

Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité!

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-02, 08:13 PM

My 2 cp.

I don't hate laughter. Really, I don't. It's just that some girls have this really annoying habit of "laughing" to the point that they sound like they're gasping for air. You know the sort. "A-hi-hi-hi-hi." Maybe it's the frequency, or just the fact they seem to be everywhere, but that sound annoys me to no end.:smallannoyed:

More to come.:smalltongue:

Edit: I know for a fact that most Explomos are guys. Seeing as these guys literally risk life and limb to detonate suspected bombs, "blinds"(unexploded grenades) and other such ordinance, it's not really surprising that they can pull in as much as a mid-level officer(I chatted with one once while waiting out the "will it won't it" phase for a blind), and they get a somewhat hefty chunk of bonus as well. My dad works at an off-shore oil rig, and used to do the graveyard shift. Paid decently, for blue-collar work(certainly more than any of the jobs I've temped at, which have all been white-collar). Basically, if it has a chance to kill you, it's almost always a guy doing it, and there will be hazard pay(even if it's not mentioned as such and simply rolled into the overall package). Another reason(over here) that guys get paid more is because they have to go through National Service(conversely, any woman who joins the armed forces is almost guaranteed to finish as a Sergeant or officer, with commensurate benefits, since she has to sign on, rather than being drafted), which leads to 2 years of disrupted studies/work potential, coupled with another 2(or more) weeks each year of going back to camp for further training. I once read a hilarious message in the newspaper from a woman protesting the pay disparity due to National Service. She tried to argue that childbirth was a form of National Service. I was almost tempted to reply to said message with the scathing remark: "Does that mean that Nuns, infertile women, those who use contraceptives, those who get hysterectomies, and those who just plain can't get any should be arrested as Draft Dodgers?":smallbiggrin:

Metal Head

2008-02-02, 08:23 PM

So I'd say I support feminism as a concept, but when put into practice, it's too hard to deal with it, as well as social norms.

I'd definitely have to agree with that. Equality is of course a great goal, but it's become twisted Some feminists are far more sexist than those that they oppose. Has anyone noticed that respectable positions like policeman, fireman, and mailman have been made into police officer, fire fighter, and mailperson (sometimes)? I know someone who goes to a school where for a year they changed the way US history was taught so that the founding fathers became founding frames. Founding framers? To me it sounds like they're a bunch of carpenters, not the creators of a nation. All this changing, yet gunman and middleman remain unchanged. I'd say more, but Blayze said it all before me.

Anyway, how has no one yet mentioned the god of manliness, Chuck Norris?

Blayze

2008-02-02, 08:38 PM

Does manual labor really pull in that much?

Well, I work for my local Council's Highways department. Let's see...

In our depot alone, we've got roadworkers, masons, electricians, fitters, joiners, gangers and supervisors. They can pull in some hefty wads of cash. I mean, there's a *lot* of training they have to keep on top of (I've seen the records. Every one of them has a boatload of courses they've been on, and that they have to keep updating).

Employees who cost that kind of money must be worth a hell of a lot in terms of profit, and must therefore rake in quite a bit themselves. They work regular Sundays (Double time) and normal overtime/Saturdays (Time and a half), not to mention gritting/flooding rates. Then there's the bonus they get (Part of the profit), depending on the speed and quality of their work.

There's all sorts of hazards they deal with on the job, too. Working at height, traffic, uneven/slippery/unsteady ground, large machinery, etc...

The list goes on and on. Meanwhile, in the office, we make a pittance compared to what they can get. But we've got the easier jobs by far.

Working in office, though, you probably have a lot more contact with women of the previous generations than I do.

Eh, they're a mix. Some are as young as you and I, others are my mum's age, others still older.

I think maybe you'll grow out of all this anger that you have

Anger? Meh. I'm easy-going most of the time, it's just some things have the potential to set me off. S'good in a way, though. I tend to be a bit... unemotional at times. My sarcasm doesn't help, either. :P

Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité!

"I don't care about the equalities and the fraternities, but I'm NOT having the liberties!"

Jagg

2008-02-02, 08:47 PM

Signed...and I'm an egg. :smallcool:

If you get tongue-tied around whoever you're attracted to then that's generally nature's way of telling you there are other things it wants you to work on first (like exams, or learning to drive, or making a good name in your first job, or whatever).

Just do whatever you find interesting and - soon enough - girls/boys/whoever will seek you out. I dunno why (the female mind especially is a bizarre and swirly mystery), it just happens that way.

Anyone wants me I'll be doing something with powertools. :smallwink:

Sorry to drag you away from the Drills Bosssmiley, I've met guys my age who still get tounge-tied. Talking to people and people skills in general is a skill. One of the most common phobia's is speaking in public. As such it needs to be practiced or you lose it. It's also been my experience that these skills are as equally if not more important that the ability to drive, grades, first job etc.

I remember meeting I guy who was dux of our school. (scored as the highest academically gifted student in the state). The guy had no social skills whatsoever because he locked himself away in his room with his books, didn't have any friends, and studied,studied,studied. I met him five years after school finished and he was working in the exciting field of fast food. His lack of people skills seriously crimped his life.

I'm working through the posts men, bear with me.

JAGG

Jagg

2008-02-02, 09:11 PM

Jagg

2008-02-02, 09:14 PM

Im a Men!

Wheres the beer?

http://www.splitbrain.org/_media/projects/beer.jpg

That'll be two coppers.

Jagg

2008-02-02, 09:37 PM

Hm...at what point does a boys become a men? :smallconfused:

Vespe is this a serious question? I can see you got some other answers but it's really quite a difficult question. I'm reminded of many movies where the comment along the lines of "this'll sort the men from the boys" generally followed by some act of stupidity, bravery, or risk taking behaviour. Like war, or mustering cows for 3000 kilometres. But really is the ability to ride a horse or shoot a gun what marks that transitional period? Is it the mastering of some important manly skill that says you are no longer a boy? Can't be a man until you've drunk your own weight in beer? Perhaps it's having naughty fun time? I'm sure we've all heard that old chestnut about what turns a girl into a woman.

I say it's none of these things. It's not about having l33t manly skillz. It's having the maturity to make decisions, accept consequences, shoulder responsibility, have principles and goals and the determination to fight for them. Of course that's the brief version, but you get the idea.

JAGG

averagejoe

2008-02-02, 09:42 PM

I would like to note that though I am 100%, red-blooded male... I don't seem to have the age old problem with 'understand' the female mind. Well, ok, lets just say I don't find them any more confusing than my fellow guys at any rate.

Actually this is true for me as well. I've never understood, or related to, anyone talking about how women are a different species, or whatever.

#1. Does anyone else seem to have the quirk where they can see a girl, agree with others that they are, to quote, 'totally smokin' and be absolutely and completely unattracted to them?

Actually, yes, sometimes even to the point where I don't even notice that they're supposed to be attractive. Knowing very little about celebrities, it always catches me by suprise when I discover that a female celebrity is considered to be especially attractive. I rarely see it myself.

Lilly

2008-02-02, 09:44 PM

Bacon? Where's the discussion of bacon?

And even though it is right now, lets keep the discussion of feminism civil

Ya Ta Hey!

2008-02-02, 10:25 PM

To sum up this thread, Humanities Knowledge of the female mind.............................................. .................................................. ........................................

1. Don't be hatin'
2. Women are people, not walking Rubick's-cubes. Just say what's on your mind and see what happens.

The two best possible lessons, both of which I learned firsthand..

When I was a kid I let myself blame women in general for isolated cases of mistreatment, and it continued and compounded well into college (!). The worst thing was, I got very vindictive and dished out the hurt* way beyond what I had ever recieved. That accomplished absolutely nothing constructive and I still cross my fingers and hope that no young lady took it personally and, in turn, decided to mistrust men because I was an idiot. Sheesh.

Incidentally, I think that's one of the lessons that good male role models teache you, how to deal with adversity and not take it too personally. In other words, you learn that you can have raised voices and take knocks from someone and it doesn't mean that they hate you or that you should be sworn-freaking-enemies from then on. If I hadn't been such a thin skinned wuss and realized this early on, I would have saved myself a whole lot of obsessive malice. Honestly, I think self confidence is like steel; it has to take a little heat before its ready to carry any load.

So, don't be hatin. Yo. Cuz. Chief, whatever.

And secondly, the best way to relate to women is like you relate to anyone else, which is to say through some pre-existing thing you have in common. Most married couples met through friends or at something they both did together, almost never on the street.

Its almost better to learn how to be happy being single, because it completely eliminates any pressure or desperation that would otherwise be underscoring your relations with the gender of interest, and just regard them for who they are. You'll make friends indescriminantly like normal, and then you'll eventually meet someone that clicks and off you go. None of this 'unhealthy fixation on the first person who strikes you as attractive until you're enshrining them with god-like reverence'; those relationships never work out if they even start.

That's the core of going in without expectations, that you're not at the batter's plate trying to hit a homerun and aw man, you struck out. You're just talking and seeing where it goes.

So in review, doing a serious gut check and learning how to be happy with yourself and becoming okay with the idea of living alone will, paradoxically, instill you with a healthier outlook on love in general and make it way less life-or-death to prusue. You're not asking people out to the prom anymore.

*Let me add that I mean that purely in the verbal/emotional sense. I was bitter, not psychotic.

Proven_Paradox

2008-02-02, 10:41 PM

I would like to begin this post by declaring myself the paragon of all things manly. Those who would contest this claim need only look to my avatar for proof. Plus, I have a beard. It is manly. Also, I love bacon, which, as Lilly correctly pointed out, needs to be a focus of discussion in a thread about manliness.

Now that my silly and nonsensicle urges are satisfied...

I would like to note that though I am 100%, red-blooded male... I don't seem to have the age old problem with 'understand' the female mind. Well, ok, lets just say I don't find them any more confusing than my fellow guys at any rate.

I think the cause of this is that men try to understand women more than they want to understand other men. I think that if these same men tried to understand other men they would be equally mystified.

I personally don't understand women that well, but I also know I don't understand other men that well too. It would be more accurate to state that I don't understand other people. I think there is likely a difference between the way the sexes work, but I
a) believe this is probably more minor that most men would assume.
2) believe this a product of nurture rather than nature that will vanish as society becomes less gender concious.
III) acknowledge that I may be completely, totally wrong.
pi) number things strangely. (Damn you nonsensical urges! *Shakes fist*)

#1. Does anyone else seem to have the quirk where they can see a girl, agree with others that they are, to quote, 'totally smokin' and be absolutely and completely unattracted to them?

Yes, and I also find myself attracted to women who other men seem to find unattractive. Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. And I don't mean the monster.

However, no, I do not in fact act like a twerp despite having as many hormones as any guy, and quite possibly with some to spare. Is this like a rare instance here? Do the rest of y'all act like juvenile apes?

You're not alone here. The men who do that anger me. They make all men look immature. Of course, it also angers me that people as a whole seem to take things that an individual does and applies it to the entire group.

Hypocritical?

Perhaps...

"Why risk our special friendship?"

The friends zone is a very frustrating thing, and I've fallen into that with just about every woman I've been interested in a possible more-than-friends relationship. It is true that anyone I'd be willing to get into a romantic relationship I would also be willing to be friends with. The difference here is that in the former case, the key word in the phrase is more-than-friends.

My problems with women is more often that any time I meet one that I'm interested in, she's already in a relationship. Usually a long-term and serious one with my luck.

ForzaFiori

2008-02-02, 11:11 PM

*grins*

this thread amuses me :smallbiggrin:

I would like to note that though I am 100%, red-blooded male... I don't seem to have the age old problem with 'understand' the female mind. Well, ok, lets just say I don't find them any more confusing than my fellow guys at any rate.

Your not the only one. I'm completely male, and i get girls just as well as guys (sometimes better). However, according to most girls who realize this, you and me are the exception, not the rule. However, it does impress the ladies EXTREMELY. :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, as this seems to be a good thread for guys to talk about gals, I gotta couple questions.

#1. Does anyone else seem to have the quirk where they can see a girl, agree with others that they are, to quote, 'totally smokin' and be absolutely and completely unattracted to them?

Seriously, for me there is a big difference, and in general I don't care much for models or those that are 'hawt'. For instance, take a discussion I got into on the boards about Smallville and the female cast. I don't find Lana for instance at all attractive, despite being a babe. Now Chloe... ooooh yeah. I find 'cute' a whole lot more attractive than 'smokin'. Also, you can be absolutely beautiful... and not be smoking.

Totally. there are alot of chicks at my school who my friends point out and i'm like "oh yea, there REALLY HOT" and then i think "and yet i would never date them" Then i meet someone who i wind up dating, and while i think they're just beautiful, my friends think they're not. its really weird. To each his own i guess. Besides, it means there's less competition over chicks I like :smallamused:

#2. My sister says guys often hang out the windows trying to get her attention and get cat calls. The other day she was followed for nearly 30 miles by this vehicle who kept doing all this stupid stuff and finally she called the cops.

The cop was like, 'Ah, just young guys and their hormones raging, they probably didn't mean anything. Didn't we all do that kind of thing?'

My sister was like, 'Uh, my brother (Me here) doesn't.'

The cop is then, 'Oh, he does, you just don't know about it.'

However, no, I do not in fact act like a twerp despite having as many hormones as any guy, and quite possibly with some to spare. Is this like a rare instance here? Do the rest of y'all act like juvenile apes? :smallannoyed:

Btw, last comment, on the 'lets just be friends'. I don't know about you but anyone I'd want to have a relationship with would BE my best friend. In fact, the special one in my life is exactly the same.

So tell'em to tell the truth. Personally I find stupid politeness far more insulting than blunt truths.

once again, I'm not (usually) a juvenile ape. I do occasionally make the perverted joke if it is just lobbed across the plate. It would be a waste to not take a swing. But I 1) only do this around people I know are comfortable with it, and 2) know how far is too far and when to stop. Many guys, it seems, do not know this unfortunately.

Leper_Kahn

2008-02-03, 01:50 AM

#1. Does anyone else seem to have the quirk where they can see a girl, agree with others that they are, to quote, 'totally smokin' and be absolutely and completely unattracted to them?

Seriously, for me there is a big difference, and in general I don't care much for models or those that are 'hawt'. For instance, take a discussion I got into on the boards about Smallville and the female cast. I don't find Lana for instance at all attractive, despite being a babe. Now Chloe... ooooh yeah. I find 'cute' a whole lot more attractive than 'smokin'. Also, you can be absolutely beautiful... and not be smoking.

This is an old post, but I had to reply because I agree fully. So many girls who are just "Smokin," as you'd say, I wouldn't give a second glance to. I also agree with the cute thing.

Haruki-kun

2008-02-03, 02:40 AM

CharlieSmiles

2008-02-03, 03:11 AM

I've recently read that the pay gaps between genders is skewed due to the fact that the numbers are based on yearly wages not on pay per hour worked. When men and women work and equal number of hours the pay is nearly equal. But in the jobs that they're looking at, doctors for example, men work an average of 500 more hours per year. It's due to the fact that women are more likely to be the main caregiver to families and work less even in two income homes that creates this 80cents per every dollar a man earns misconception.

Serpentine

2008-02-03, 03:37 AM

So, uh. You think it's okay that women are paid less then men? I can understand the emotions behind pretty much everything else in your post, but that I can't get behind.

You know, the whole thing about the feminist movement is erasing the idea that women have to rely on/are obligated to receive special treatment from men. That's the whole point. The reason why guys get disapproving looks when they don't help out people who need more medically is because there's the perception in the culture that men are stronger and supposed to sacrifice for women. This comes from centuries of patriarchal societies emphasizing feminine weakness. You don't run into feminists who believe that men shouldn't be allowed on lifeboats, you don't run into feminists who think that only men should stand up on the bus for old folks.

(You DON'T. And if you do, they're not feminists, but selfish, misogynistic women who are against everything the movement stands for, and do more damage than anything else because it gives the idea to people such as yourself, comrade, that all feminists are like that.)

The feminists are trying to getting rid of these perceptions, which benefits men as well as women. And what about dual-income households becoming the norm, so that the monetary pressure isn't on the men? And the increased number of women attending medical school, becoming mathematicians and scientists and serving the people as a whole in their field? That is because of the feminists too.

However! There's plenty that's wrong with the Western American culture's perception of men that is probably the fault of the feminist movement. It's not right that there should be T-shirt with "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them", it's not right that every American mother on TV is smart and capable while the father is a troglodyte. Women should not be empowered by the degradation of men. These are all missteps and against the true feminist ideals of equality. Real feminists do not hate men, but love them as people and as men, and do not have the insecurity and weakness that leads to hypocrisy and misandry. You do have feminists like Valerie Solanas (author of the S.C.U.M. Manifesto, shooter of Andy Warhol) who end up hating men because they are very broken people with a lot of rage inside them that needs a whipping boy. But they're just that, broken people who are taking their emotional problems out on men. Real women do not need to hate men to feel strong. That is not a healthy way to live, that is not a healthy ideology.

This is probably the lowest point in the feminist movement, a time of transition where the two cultural perceptions of women - as being on a pedestal, and as being as capable as men - co-exist. Which gives the impression that women want it all. This is not true. In reality, the feminists are moving towards taking the pedestal down. A lot of women in this day and age, at least the ones I know, will ask you not to open doors for them and to split the bill at the end of the date instead of having you pay for it all. This is right thinking and the right mode of life, and it wouldn't be the reality fifty years ago, before the feminists.

I think that perhaps the previous generation is abusing feminism - I'm probably right in saying that you're older than me at least by a good five or ten years (I am nineteen) - as led to do so both by the mixed messages of the transitional period and by the culture of greed in the capitalist states that came to a head in the eighties. However, I believe that the situation is much improved among the women that are just maturing now.

In spite of everything, I think that if we work towards these feminist ideals with true eglatarianism in mind, the situation will be better for both men and women if we can achieve the feminist goals.

(As for your sister, I got that same exact treatment regarding my kid brother Aleksander, down to the letter. I think it's just that the younger ones of any gender are coddled to hell and back.)

... Incidentally, is it just me, or does it seem like whenever I talk about social philosophy I sound like the next sentence out of my mouth should be "Comrades!! Look towards Lenin and Stalin, and the glorious future beneath the dictatorship of the proletarian!" :smallsigh: There's that Soviet programming coming out again.Again, someone says what I want to but better than I could :smallsigh: At least this time you said it before me...
First of all, the feminists you're all descibing are not feminists. They're bigots.
Secondly, the women's rights movement of the mid-to-late 20th century (there were, believe it or not, feminist movements well before this, just without the same obvious and immediate wide-ranging social impact) was a massive upheaval of what were previously (largely) unquestioned social assumptions. Women had been second-rate citizens for millennia, and then in the space of a couple of decades they were suddenly elevated to that same status as men. They had to fight for this, and fight hard, and they still have to fight to hold onto it (sadly, far too many young women seem to have completely forgotten all of this). For every new way of thinking, there is always a backlash, a reaction or overreaction - it happens all the time in art, why wouldn't it happen in something as important as social change? Yes, there are women who have gone too far in their feminism and become just as sexist as they perceive men to be. In response, some men have taken to despising all feminists as feminazis, and most women as feminists. The so-called feminazis take their reactionary misogynism as confirmation of their own prejudice, and so on. It will take a while for things to even out, be patient. I have faith that it will happen eventually (though probably not universally).
As far as I'm concerned, feminism is all about the following: There will always be some jobs that more men want than women, and vice versa. There will always be more women in, say, childcare, and always more men as labourers. HOWEVER. If any man wants to get into a career or role dominated by women, and if any woman wants to have a career or role largely occupied by men, there should be nothing, beyond their own desire and abilities, to stop them.

On a slighty unrelated note, almost all married couples will say that their partner is their best friend, but girls won't date a guy because they're friends? What's up with that?Everything I think on this topic can be seen in the links in my signature (this is handy, saves on lots of typing...).

It is okay for a female to slap a male to show her anger, for a male to do so to a female makes him a monster.This is a double standard that does really get to me, but I'm inclined to think that it's more of a failure of men, as a whole (or... as a society, or a social force, or something), to take advantage of the opportunities offered by feminism to give up some machismic expectations. I don't really doubt that more men beat up on women than vice versa, but I also don't doubt that it happens more than is known. I would like to, somehow, get a real, true statistic of it... The trouble is, there's probably differences of definition, as well - a woman being regularly shoved or insulted would probably admit to being abused, but don't you think a man would feel silly doing the same? This, I think, is an attitude that needs to change.

I've also done the open doors for women (In fact I do it for everyone) and gotten the negative reaction of "Think I can't open a door for myself?". My response was "It's not about you princess. Don't be so self absorbed." If she was annoyed at you before, this would have really pissed her off. I don't think there's any way you could have been more condescending and insulting (assuming that's really what you say). Occasionally, an older man will give me a passing "thanks, sweetheart" or "excuse me, love", but generally I'll dismiss it as a relic of a bygone era. Calling mature, adult women by such demeaning, patronising little endearments - at least when they're strangers or acquaintances - is doing nothing but display an underlying contempt for them.
As for holding doors open, meh. I do it for guys. It's just good manners...

<.<
>.>
>acts all macho and stuff<

Gaelbert

2008-02-03, 03:41 AM

I think the princess is more directed because of the self centeredness of the person, not necessarily because they're female. I know I use that line on males who act absorbed, too.

@V: Not usually a quality I am accused of, but I think I can go with it.

Baerdog7

2008-02-03, 03:48 AM

If she was annoyed at you before, this would have really pissed her off. I don't think there's any way you could have been more condescending and insulting (assuming that's really what you say). Occasionally, an older man will give me a passing "thanks, sweetheart" or "excuse me, love", but generally I'll dismiss it as a relic of a bygone era. Calling mature, adult women by such demeaning, patronising little endearments - at least when they're strangers or acquaintances - is doing nothing but display an underlying contempt for them.
As for holding doors open, meh. I do it for guys. It's just good manners...

Emphasis mine. Like Jagg, I'm one of those people who tends to hold doors open for other people, both male and female, because it's just good manners. If somebody is going to insult me for being polite, I feel perfectly justified in giving them a piece of my mind. At this point, they have thrown my polite gesture back in my face and now they have to deal with it. I think calling someone out like that is perfectly justified. She's obviously not a "mature, adult woman" if she can't deal with having a door held open for her.

Edit: Aw, man. It took me seven minutes to figure out how I was going to word this post and Coolgaelbert managed to come in and basically condense what I meant to say in a couple of sentences. Curse you Coolgaelbert and your lack of verbosity!

Serpentine

2008-02-03, 03:54 AM

I meant to add, but forgot to, that because it's just good manners, I don't understand girls who get all defensive like that. At that point, she was well in the wrong. If it is just a way of calling someone out for being melodramatic, fine, but be aware of how it'll sound.

Baerdog7

2008-02-03, 03:57 AM

Serpentine

2008-02-03, 03:58 AM

Will it be something dead?

Mordokai

2008-02-03, 04:39 AM

Ah, it would seem that we are on the same wavelength then.

I'll just go over here and do something manly then. Maybe I'll poke something...with a stick. Yes, I shall poke something with a stick in a most masculine manner. It will be great fun and there shall be much scratching of genitals and passing of gas.

I usually just laught. Yes, I know, it's strange to laught at somebody for doing that, but it seems to work wonders. Many times when I do something nice and somebody does something bad in return(the example with doors being just one)... I laught at him. The merry laughter, not the sarcastic one. Usually people are confused at that at first but then they somehow get back in good mood. I've found out it's really not worth getting angry over such petty things. It's leads to nothing but more bickering, which doesn't do anybody any good.

Anyway, I'm male as well. Perhaps not as full blooded as some other guys in this topic, but I still am. Guess that socializing mainly with women for eight years in a row(I went to a school that had more girl - guy ratio 5:1, similiral at college and at work) will do to you. Over this years I've come to get much better around the members of gentle sex(before that I was kinda... shalll we say, indecisive?) but they still pose a on of secrets to me. As such, I doubt I'll be around here much. I'd probably get kicked out anyway :smallsmile: But it's good to see that guys have their own topic. Maybe I'll get around more if this turns out ok. No doubt I'll need some advices and it's good to know where to get them.

Baerdog7

2008-02-03, 04:43 AM

Will it be something dead?

Maybe. We'll find out by poking it!

bosssmiley

2008-02-03, 11:46 AM

Bacon? Where's the discussion of bacon?

Hijacked by the spongmonkeys (http://http://www.rathergood.com/bacon/) (the thieving little cockney gits!). :smallbiggrin:

Exeson

2008-02-03, 03:50 PM

ok, here is a question.

Why does the guy always have to approach and ask out the girl?

Shraik

2008-02-03, 04:17 PM

I have also held doors for girls for girls before. Oddly, Friday when I did it, it was a big enough deal for her to mention to someone. I think thats a good thing.

Ranna

2008-02-03, 04:26 PM

I have also held doors for girls for girls before. Oddly, Friday when I did it, it was a big enough deal for her to mention to someone. I think thats a good thing.

I know i shouldnt be here but its a massive deal to see chivalry in these days its lovely

Narmoth

2008-02-03, 04:45 PM

Exeson - he doesn't. I have been asked out by girls.
But it's the stereotype that the guy asks the girl, thus making himself vulnerable to a decline, while the girl remains in the desiding, dominant position.

bosssmiley

2008-02-03, 04:50 PM

ok, here is a question.

Why does the guy always have to approach and ask out the girl?

Easy. It's the last vestige of the old patriarchy. You're the man and - in (outmoded) theory at least - the older and more worldly-wise of the couple. You're the one who has established a career in the public sphere to provide for the genteel, well-bred young lad you intend to marry (who will stay home and raise the young 'uns). When you feel the need to take a wife, you present your credentials as suitor, and the prospective bride - and her family - then judge the merit of the suit and either grant or withhold consent.

It all goes back to the old Roman idea of the paterfamilias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pater_familias) and his absolute authority over his family. We've inherited vestiges of that via the moderating influence of medieval chivalry and early-modern gentlemanly conduct: where do you think the old custom of asking a girl's father for his daughter's hand in marriage originally came from?

One generation's pragmatism is the next's dogma, the next's chivalry, their children's tradition, and eventually the object of their children's incomprehension.

I know i shouldnt be here but its a massive deal to see chivalry in these days its lovely

I subscribe to this position entirely. On what black day did refinement become an object of censure? Link related (http://www.thechap.net/content/section_manifesto/index.html)

rubakhin

2008-02-03, 05:04 PM

I know i shouldnt be here but its a massive deal to see chivalry in these days its lovely

You should move to Eastern Europe, then. :smalltongue: Over there, men still open doors and carry bags. Perfect strangers will actually get mad at you and call you out on it if they see you walking with a woman and you're not carrying her things for her.

Not that I'm advocating Russia in particular, seeing as how something like every third man in Russia is an alcoholic wifebeater. (The other two are just emotionally abusive.) Try Poland?

God, Russian men, though. They treat women like garbage, but damn. Being good-looking is, like, the damn default over there. It's the inverse of the situation in America, where you're born average and everyone around you is average, and sometimes somebody comes along who is stunning. And they're all so - ahem, well, anyway, this probably wasn't what was meant by "a thread in which to discuss masculinity", so. :smallsigh:

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-03, 05:06 PM

To address an issue from the first page, Jagg, you're actually going by a common misconception of Feminism, albeit one that is wholly Feminism's fault for having a dumb name. It's about equalizing rights between women and men, and not viewing things in the same duality they are usually seen with Gender, with Men and Women each a certain way. Judith Butler, for example, propses that Sex and Gender aren't related; one can be a Male with traditionally Feminine traits. Why it wasn't called Egalitarianism, or something, I really don't know. Feminism, in theory, is about equality.

Also, Real Men certainly can dance. Real Men also beat up guys outside of roadside bars, and, most importantly, come back from the dead for Demi Moore.

Giving women advantages.
Or not repeatedly beating your kid sibling over-and-over to the point they're nearly crying.

Taking on suffering and disadvantages just because we happened to be born differently.
Oh, the suffering and disadvantages of higher wages for the same jobs! Curse you, phallus, what ruin have caused me!

These days, giving any of my LAN buddies a manly hug (Or more to the point, being on the receiving end of a bone-crushing manly bear-hug) would elicit yells from nearby idiots, making disparaging comments about our sexuality (Or is that "sexualities", because they're insulting more than one person?), despite the fact that few things must feel manlier than almost breaking your friend's ribs.
If girls did it, there are idiots who would cheer for lesbians, too. Idiots do, uh, idiotic things. It's kinda why they're idiots.

Jagg

2008-02-03, 05:10 PM

If she was annoyed at you before, this would have really pissed her off. I don't think there's any way you could have been more condescending and insulting (assuming that's really what you say). Occasionally, an older man will give me a passing "thanks, sweetheart" or "excuse me, love", but generally I'll dismiss it as a relic of a bygone era. Calling mature, adult women by such demeaning, patronising little endearments - at least when they're strangers or acquaintances - is doing nothing but display an underlying contempt for them.
As for holding doors open, meh. I do it for guys. It's just good manners...

<.<
>.>
>acts all macho and stuff<

Ahem Serp. That's the point. I'm generally a nice guy. As I said before I open doors for anyone, hold open lifts, give my seat up on the train, that sort of thing. When someone verbally slaps me across the face for doing a nice act, I'll give as good as I get. Equality at it's finest. I do nice things like this to create little pockets of happiness, that warm glow people get when someone smiles at them and opens a door. If you're rude enough to complain about some kind of imagined slight to someone who's just being poilte WTF? It's like kicking a puppy. I feel no need to be polite in those circumstances.

JAGG

Pwenet

2008-02-03, 05:10 PM

I know i shouldnt be here but its a massive deal to see chivalry in these days its lovely

The scary thing.

A while ago I was out to a mall with a female friend of him. We both were seriously dating other people, and we were just hanging out.

We got back to my car, I opened up her door first cause it was closer and I didn't have a auto-unlock on that car so I keyed it open.

As I walked over to my side to get into the drivers side seat, a complete stranger came up to my friend and told her "I was a keeper".

We got a good chuckle over that.

New Topic

For all the men out there, who one day find a girl they really like, and decide to get out of the dating game and settle down, I have one piece of advice.

Meet her mother!

While I had met my ex-wife mother a few times, I didn't realize how much the two of them were alike, which is why thinking back the reason why things went south are becoming a bit more clear.

Of course there are always exceptions to this rule.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-03, 05:18 PM

Serpentine: I did not see your post. For the record, some people are patronizing and condescending to everyone, myself included. I call virtually everyone "Love" or "Babe," regardless of gender. I also say "You are a prince among men," for people who do nice things for me, regardless of sex, referring to the pop singer, rather than the royal rank; you are to your peers as Prince is to mortal men. Funkier.
I felt I should explain that, so it is more properly understood.

EDIT:
From my experience, both men and women tend to either be very similar or almost wholly dissimilar to their parents.

Lyesmith

2008-02-03, 05:30 PM

On the parents thingg : I am very similar to my mother in appaearance, and have some of her traits (Probably would have a lot more if she hadnt died before i was 12), but mainly i resemble my father in characteristics. But i'm not sure if i'm a fair test, to be fair.

Jagg

2008-02-03, 05:33 PM

To address an issue from the first page, Jagg, you're actually going by a common misconception of Feminism, albeit one that is wholly Feminism's fault for having a dumb name. It's about equalizing rights between women and men, and not viewing things in the same duality they are usually seen with Gender, with Men and Women each a certain way. Judith Butler, for example, propses that Sex and Gender aren't related; one can be a Male with traditionally Feminine traits. Why it wasn't called Egalitarianism, or something, I really don't know. Feminism, in theory, is about equality.

Veis...VeisulIta.....Veshiwhosa...Hey Buddy,

I'm not confused. I think Serp said it best. There's feminists (whom I have no problem with at all), who desire to see equality between men and women, and then there are Feminazi's, who wish to stomp men into the ground just because we are male and the embodiment of all that is wrong with the world. Also somewhere in between these two is the Femiswitch, who likes to think she is a feminist looking for equality, but brings out a big stick that she calls feminism (and isn't) and waves it around until she gets what she wants.

Blayze

2008-02-03, 07:00 PM

Or not repeatedly beating your kid sibling over-and-over to the point they're nearly crying.

Did I say she never won? I don't believe I did. Should I have let her win? I don't believe I should have. Where would that have ended, had people kept letting her win at things? Sure, I'll handicap myself in a game. The challenge is part of what makes it *fun*. I won't, however, roll over.

Oh, the suffering and disadvantages of higher wages for the same jobs! Curse you, phallus, what ruin have caused me!

Higher wages for the *same* jobs? Not from my experience. Higher wages for more physically demanding jobs? Sure. It's only natural, after all, to expect the person who works longer hours, has a higher chance of working overtime and does a more demanding job to be paid more than someone who works shorter, more predictable hours doing a less demanding job. It's not as if I get paid any more money for working the same desk job as the one woman in the same office as I am who is on the same pay scale as me (The others are higher up).

Trog

2008-02-03, 07:17 PM

Trog's Rules of Manliness™:

1. Be respectful. As long as you act this way you will always have the upper hand. Others can slap whatever labels they want on you for doing so but in the end it says more about them than you. Be aware that how you apply labels does likewise.

2. Be Clueless. Might as well put this in here so we're all sure we are abiding by the rules. Plus it's nice to have an excuse.

3. Might as well try. Since you are bound by rule #2 you have the perfect excuse after all. So talk to that attractive person. Try out that new activity. Don't be afraid to screw up. Everyone does it. Ultimately it's how you treat yourself about your screw ups - NOT how others treat you - that can hamper you the most.

NOTE: These rules also go for Womanly...er... Feminininininn... Girls.

Prophaniti

2008-02-03, 07:18 PM

Great thread, some really interesting discussions. I just wanted to sound off on two things.

1) On the Comprehension of the Female Mind:
I don't understand most women and it has been researched and documented that the majority of women have a thought process quite different from a man's. This is not to say better or worse, since they will both often arrive at the same conclusions, they just take a different road to get there. To most guys this road seems convoluted and illogical, while to most women our road seems overly simple to the point of imbecilic. (e.g. Thog likes icecream.:thog:)

However!
This is not something that is 'Women vs Men'. I suffer the same perplexity when trying to comprehend the opinions and habits of most men as well as society in general. I simply do not understand what is so fascinating about watching sports, be it football (both kinds), basketball or Caber Tossing. I don't understand why so many guys seem to accept and enjoy movies that are moronic simply because they have scantily (or un-) clad women in them. I don't understand why so many people like Harry Potter. I don't understand a lot of what other people are thinking, nor how they can arrive at the often (to me) questionable or downright ludicrous conclusions that they so often do. This is in no way, shape or form limited to the understandings of the female mind, often a far less confusing puzzle than many we face today. (e.g. Politics)

2) On Chivalry:
I, personally, like being chivalrous toward women. Being a (I'd like to think) good person I enjoy making people happy, at least some of the time. Being a man, I enjoy it even more if I can make women happy, even if it's only a smile when I open a door for them. When I do so I am not saying 'You obviously wouldn't be able to handle this door on your own so let a Man assist you.' I am saying 'Let me be courteous and thoughtful, not because I believe you are weak but simply because I am trying to be polite.' I do not view this as a 'Women vs Men' subject either, but rather one of simple manners and kindness. I have on rare occasion even encountered women who hold doors or something similar for me, and I simply proceed through with the nod or smile that I would expect from others. Do I do such things more often for women? Guilty. This is generally not deliberate but simply because, being a heterosexual male, I notice women more consciously. Bottom line: a little more courtesy would do everyone some good.

Hope you enjoyed my ramblings.

Da Beast

2008-02-03, 07:27 PM

Great, this thread is going to evolve into Project Mayhem.

Ahem. Anyway. So, uh. I assume that this thread will be 95% talking about the womenfolk. Probably won't be posting here much.

The first rule about Men in the Playground... Sorry, couldn't help myself.

You DON'T. And if you do, they're not feminists, but selfish, misogynistic women who are against everything the movement stands for, and do more damage than anything else because it gives the idea to people such as yourself, comrade, that all feminists are like that.

The thing is that it seems like the selfish misogynists vastly outnumber the true feminists. It seems impossible to turn around with out running into some new example of sexism being paraded around as feminism. It probably doesn't help my perception much that my mom is one of those women who claims to be feminist but is really just a garden variety sexist. Over exposure to this has really kind of soured me on the movement, true feminism or otherwise. Much to my own shame, I can't hear the term feminism and not have to suppress the urge to roll my eyes. I just wanted to get that off my chest and now I don't really know where I'm going with this so lets move on.

#1. Does anyone else seem to have the quirk where they can see a girl, agree with others that they are, to quote, 'totally smokin' and be absolutely and completely unattracted to them?

Seriously, for me there is a big difference, and in general I don't care much for models or those that are 'hawt'. For instance, take a discussion I got into on the boards about Smallville and the female cast. I don't find Lana for instance at all attractive, despite being a babe. Now Chloe... ooooh yeah. I find 'cute' a whole lot more attractive than 'smokin'. Also, you can be absolutely beautiful... and not be smoking.

I'd like to add my voice to those who agree with you. I'd take a cute girl over a hot one most any day of the week.

Anyway, how has no one yet mentioned the god of manliness, Chuck Norris?

Maybe because Chuck Norris became tiresome years ago.

Own Rule about being a guy:
Screw the rules! I have long hair!

I had long hair until the rules made me cut it :smallfrown:.

Jagg

2008-02-03, 07:36 PM

New Topic

For all the men out there, who one day find a girl they really like, and decide to get out of the dating game and settle down, I have one piece of advice.

Meet her mother!

While I had met my ex-wife mother a few times, I didn't realize how much the two of them were alike, which is why thinking back the reason why things went south are becoming a bit more clear.

Of course there are always exceptions to this rule.

Ah the curse of the return of the creature of the 50ft Mother in Law

I like my Mother-in-Law No I mean it, she's a lovely woman. Caring, generous, funny and a prankster (man she zinged me last year), who was also a professional chef and feels the need to feed her family as if we had the appetite of a Roman legion.

However my mother when she visited caused my wife a massive amount of stress, and my usually even tempered wife would turn into a neurotic mess with OCD about little things like keeping the house in a state of cleanliness that made most hospital emergency rooms look like a crack house.

It was wierd. I didn't get it.

MIL Zing.
This is the sort of practical joker my mother in Law is. I had to go in for a medical procedure, where basically they stick a camera down your throat and into your stomach and have a look around. I was told I had to have someone drive me from the appointment. My MIL drove me. Told me that she had had the procedure a few years ago as well and how horrible it was, how they make you swallow a damn camera that feels like a bowling ball before giving you anaesthetic to make sure they don't damage anything. How she was awake the whole time, and could feel the camera bumping around. I don't like medical procedures at the best of times, so by now my fingernails are leaving furrows in the steering wheel. I get in there, lay down, Doc comes over, needle in the arm, woke up an hour later, didn't feel a thing, remember a thing and feel like I've just had a refreshing nap. I asked my MIL on the drive back...she'd never had the procedure.

GrassyGnoll

2008-02-03, 07:41 PM

Is it weird to ask a British girl out to see "In Bruges" ? If I don't ask her out soon I think I'll be trapped in the purgatory of mutual like forever.

Pwenet

2008-02-03, 07:48 PM

Ah the curse of the return of the creature of the 50ft Mother in Law

I like my Mother-in-Law No I mean it, she's a lovely woman. Caring, generous, funny and a prankster (man she zinged me last year), who was also a professional chef and feels the need to feed her family as if we had the appetite of a Roman legion.

However my mother when she visited caused my wife a massive amount of stress, and my usually even tempered wife would turn into a neurotic mess with OCD about little things like keeping the house in a state of cleanliness that made most hospital emergency rooms look like a crack house.

It was wierd. I didn't get it.

MIL Zing.
This is the sort of practical joker my mother in Law is. I had to go in for a medical procedure, where basically they stick a camera down your throat and into your stomach and have a look around. I was told I had to have someone drive me from the appointment. My MIL drove me. Told me that she had had the procedure a few years ago as well and how horrible it was, how they make you swallow a damn camera that feels like a bowling ball before giving you anaesthetic to make sure they don't damage anything. How she was awake the whole time, and could feel the camera bumping around. I don't like medical procedures at the best of times, so by now my fingernails are leaving furrows in the steering wheel. I get in there, lay down, Doc comes over, needle in the arm, woke up an hour later, didn't feel a thing, remember a thing and feel like I've just had a refreshing nap. I asked my MIL on the drive back...she'd never had the procedure.

In may case with the ex-mother-in-law, it seems that her goal in life was too marry off her daughter as quickly as possible to a husband much higher on the social pecking order, then impose upon them for everything and talk evil deeds behind backs and feared for my soul cause I am not a church goer and would give me strange looks and it seemed rarely showered.

When I first met my wife, she and her mother were pretty different. Then as time passed they started to become more and more similar, such as general apathy in maintaining a real relationship, going into crazy cat person mode, and thinking that everything bad is the husbands fault.

Considering I have not heard a peep from that side of my ex-family since the end of my marriage, I can only imagine what tales are being spun.

The moral of my story, know the family that you are about to marry. I'm not saying that your significant other will be a carbon copy of her parents, but it is a good idea to know where they stand, if they like you or are just tolerating you, and other little things that could add stress to a relationship or make it even better.

Jagg

2008-02-03, 08:11 PM

1) On the Comprehension of the Female Mind:
I don't understand most women and it has been researched and documented that the majority of women have a thought process quite different from a man's. This is not to say better or worse, since they will both often arrive at the same conclusions, they just take a different road to get there. To most guys this road seems convoluted and illogical, while to most women our road seems overly simple to the point of imbecilic. (e.g. Thog likes icecream.:thog:)

It's true that men and women do have different thought processes, we even have different brain activity when performing the same tasks. Ahh genetics so much to answer for. I'll give you an example.

My wife and I are driving along (we are building a house at present) and she starts a conversation along the lines of "wouldn't it be nice to get those lovely stone floors we admired in the new house. It would be beautiful with the natural wood table and sideboard in the dining room, and offset the dark red leather chairs with the matching feature wall." You can imagine what going through my mind at the time. It goes something like this.

JAGG's brain.

Access Accounting files
Retrieve "new house budget"
Access current cost of flooring....$Xx,xxx
Route estimate of stone flooring ....$XXX,xxx
:smalleek: :smallfurious: :smalleek: :smallfurious:
+++Out of cheese error+++
Open mouth and prepare to engage foot.

Of course she was talking about colour, and what if and tossing around ideas. I was thinking about how much it would cost and whether it would be feasible. We're both aiming for the same thing, but using different brains to get there.

2) On Chivalry:
I, personally, like being chivalrous toward women. Being a (I'd like to think) good person I enjoy making people happy, at least some of the time. Being a man, I enjoy it even more if I can make women happy, even if it's only a smile when I open a door for them. When I do so I am not saying 'You obviously wouldn't be able to handle this door on your own so let a Man assist you.' I am saying 'Let me be courteous and thoughtful, not because I believe you are weak but simply because I am trying to be polite.' I do not view this as a 'Women vs Men' subject either, but rather one of simple manners and kindness. I have on rare occasion even encountered women who hold doors or something similar for me, and I simply proceed through with the nod or smile that I would expect from others. Do I do such things more often for women? Guilty. This is generally not deliberate but simply because, being a heterosexual male, I notice women more consciously. Bottom line: a little more courtesy would do everyone some good.
Hope you enjoyed my ramblings.

Pah! Profanti.. We know what you're thinking when you open the door for a sweet young thang allowing her to pass through the door first... is she wearing a g string?

I can honestly say I don't open more doors, or hold open lift doors, stand up on train, etc etc for more women than men.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-03, 08:25 PM

I'm not confused.
As I said, I was referring to a statement on the first page, being somethign about there not being a feminism for men. I was pointing out that feminism, was, in fact, the feminism for men, in definition. That may have later been clarified, but as I said, I was going back to the first page.

Did I say she never won? I don't believe I did. Should I have let her win? I don't believe I should have. Where would that have ended, had people kept letting her win at things? Sure, I'll handicap myself in a game. The challenge is part of what makes it *fun*. I won't, however, roll over.
I'm not saying what you should have done. I'm saying it may have more to do with the fact that she was your [i]little[i/] sister and was, evidently, crying or near to it than the fact that "she's a girl." I think if your kid brother was about to burst into tears, something similar would've occured.

Higher wages for the *same* jobs? Not from my experience.
Your experience contradicts virtually all statistics taken, I guess. Men make more for the same jobs. They have for years.

Jagg

2008-02-03, 08:30 PM

Is it weird to ask a British girl out to see "In Bruges" ? If I don't ask her out soon I think I'll be trapped in the purgatory of mutual like forever.

"In what?" A quick google later and I see it's a movie with Ralph Fiennes (Who's so desirable that Qantas Air Hostesses join the mile high club with him) and Colin Farrell whom my wife described once as "Rowr".

Ducks I honestly have to say it depends....can you give Ralph and Colin a run for their money in the "Rowr" department? If not are you sure you want to be taking her to a movie where she may possibly be thinking..."oo that Colin Farrell." and drawing comparisons.

Funnily enough someone actually did a study about this, (some scientists have far to much time on their hands...shouldn't they be curing cancer or something?) that the best movie to take a girl to increase your chances is actually a horror film (or at least a movie filled with lots of violence and jumpy moments). Apparently it gets the heart pumping more, initiates a whole fight or flight response and women instinctively look for the big manly man around to protect them. It's weird you'd think a romantic movie would do the trick but apparently you need to scare 'em into your manly muscular arms. Take her to see "Cloverfield" instead.

In terms of the mutual like thing. Perhaps you need to subtly test the waters?

JAGG

Cade

2008-02-03, 09:06 PM

Quick question. My ex calls about once a week, and I still say 'I love you'. Is there anything wrong with that? We both know it's still true and I'm currently single, and plan to stay so.

Proven_Paradox

2008-02-03, 09:21 PM

On the feminism debate... In a philosophy class recently, feminism came up. There were three women in the class of something like twelve people, not including the female professor (who I would guess to be around early to mid thirties in age). The thing that was most interesting to me is that NONE of the girls were saying anything. The only female voice in this debate about feminism was that of the professor. I actually used the term "Feminazi" and notice out of the corner of my eye that one of them twitched, but made no move to speak. Even after I backpedaled, SAID that I had noticed her twitch, and defined Feminazi ("A woman who becomes angry at me for, say, holding a door open for her, or otherwise mistaking acts of simple politeness as chauvinism"), none of them had anything to say. I try to avoid making generalizations here, since this example suffers from a major problem of small numbers, but with the woman who twitched, it was rather obvious she had strong opinions on the topic, but refused to voice them. Whatever is motivating that mindset needs to be discouraged I think.

Another note about women who think of men as the source of all evil... Look back through history, and you will notice that a very large number of the horrible events of the past happened because of the decisions of men. There are dozens of names I could bring up here, but out of fear of Godwin's Law, I shall just skip to the point; a lot of men have done bad things.

However, correlation does not indicate causation. The problem here is that until very recently, there were no women in power; only men. Thus, only men had the power to do terrible things (on a large scale) in most cases. I think that as we see more women coming into power (and I think it's a matter of "when," not "if") we will see more problems caused by incompetent women in authority positions, simply because there are more women in authority positions. That doesn't mean that women as a whole are incompetent, just as much as the idiocy of George W. doesn't mean that men as a whole are incompetent.

GrassyGnoll

2008-02-03, 09:26 PM

"In what?" A quick google later and I see it's a movie with Ralph Fiennes (Who's so desirable that Qantas Air Hostesses join the mile high club with him) and Colin Farrell whom my wife described once as "Rowr".

Ducks I honestly have to say it depends....can you give Ralph and Colin a run for their money in the "Rowr" department? If not are you sure you want to be taking her to a movie where she may possibly be thinking..."oo that Colin Farrell." and drawing comparisons.

Funnily enough someone actually did a study about this, (some scientists have far to much time on their hands...shouldn't they be curing cancer or something?) that the best movie to take a girl to increase your chances is actually a horror film (or at least a movie filled with lots of violence and jumpy moments). Apparently it gets the heart pumping more, initiates a whole fight or flight response and women instinctively look for the big manly man around to protect them. It's weird you'd think a romantic movie would do the trick but apparently you need to scare 'em into your manly muscular arms. Take her to see "Cloverfield" instead.

In terms of the mutual like thing. Perhaps you need to subtly test the waters?

JAGG

It's just that I thought it might be a shallow "so you're European, I bet you'd like this European movie" kind of thing.

Serpentine

2008-02-03, 09:51 PM

Your experience contradicts virtually all statistics taken, I guess. Men make more for the same jobs. They have for years.To be fair, the vast majority of workplaces rectified this situation long ago. I'm told, though, that it's still a problem in male-dominated Big Business. I think what Blayze needs to acknowledge is that this really was a huge problem, one that still hasn't truly been rectified and that still needs to be struggled against to avoid it returning in full force (if more subtly). It's also a matter of getting those jobs. As he points out, labourers will often do longer hours and riskier work. However, if an employer in this field is confronted with a male and a female applicant, no matter how fit the woman might be or how well she works, the male will almost certainly be chosen. Although it is depressingly generalising and stupidly sexist in itself, the saying "a woman has to do something twice as well as a man to be considered half as good" does sometimes have some merit. Also, you seem like a fairly angry sort of a guy, but I like you :smallbiggrin:
Paradox: You make a good point. There have been a surprisingly large number of women in positions of power (though not necessarily official ones), though, and to be fair some of them were total nutcases. I am curious to see what it's like, in say a few decades, when women can get into power as they are, rather than by acting like men (see: Thatcher). I don't expect a glorious era of matriarchal peace, I'm just curious to see how it goes.

The thing is that it seems like the selfish misogynists vastly outnumber the true feminists. It seems impossible to turn around with out running into some new example of sexism being paraded around as feminism. It probably doesn't help my perception much that my mom is one of those women who claims to be feminist but is really just a garden variety sexist. Over exposure to this has really kind of soured me on the movement, true feminism or otherwise. Much to my own shame, I can't hear the term feminism and not have to suppress the urge to roll my eyes.This (or at least the perception) is absolutely not so. They're just louder and more fun to listen to (yes, fun. You can't tell me you don't enjoy the feeling of self-righteous indignation and superiority you get from hearing these female chauvinists rant against men) than real feminists. I believe that men and women should have equal opportunities in life and not be disadvantaged in any way by their gender. Thus, I am a feminist. Most women and, indeed, most men will be feminists. What you're seeing is female chauvinists hiding their bigotry behind a misappropriated label, and the sooner you realise this, I think, the better off you'll be. Some true feminists, specifically in the early days, did get right across into the other extreme, but that's because they had to, to get any real change. That had to pull so hard that they needed to go too far to get the needed leverage to drag the backward "women belong in the home" men (and women) into line. I'm not saying such extremes are good, but in the context of the struggle I think it makes sense, and in some cases was a necessary evil. Unfortunately, now that it's no longer really necessary, some people have hung onto the attitude.

Jagg, am I okay still posting in this, or should I take my leave?

Jagg

2008-02-03, 09:54 PM

Quick question. My ex calls about once a week, and I still say 'I love you'. Is there anything wrong with that? We both know it's still true and I'm currently single, and plan to stay so.

long answer

1) Why is she your ex? Think back to when you broke up. What caused it? Do these reasons still exist? If so what's with the torch?

2) Wait, she calls you weekly? and you express your love for her? And her response for you putting your heart on your sleeve is... I'm guessing less than, :haley: take me now.....I think we should get back together?

What you're doing...Empowering her. Anytime she feels the need she can call you up and feel better about herself because here's a guy that I know loves me. I so fantastic he can't move on. I crushed his little heart and he still craves my attention. Bwahahar. Okay that was an exaggeration, but you get what I'm saying right?

My advice. Stop taking her calls for a couple of weeks. When she asks why, say, "I've been going out, meeting new people" {BTW I'd actually DO this} and then measure her reaction.

If she's like - "I'm so happy for you!" and she's genuine about it, apparently she just wants to be friends with you and is glad you've gotten over her - give up, you'll never get her back she's moved on - you haven't. I recommend you go out and meet new people, join a club, get a dog whatever. If I was more manly I'd say, Mates, Beer and Strippers.

If she's like "I'm so happy for you!" and you can hear her teeth clenched when she does it, she can't believe you've gotten over her, and realizes that you may no longer be her emotional whipping horse whom she can thrash for positive re-inforcement whenever she wishes. If this is the case do you really want to be with this person? If it was me and I was being used like that, I'd carefully stoke those fires of jealousy until you either end up with a Friend With Benefits, or can ravish her when she comes over to re-install the leash she has around your neck, and dump her manipulative heiny.

JAGG

Jagg

2008-02-03, 10:06 PM

Jagg, am I okay still posting in this, or should I take my leave?

Serpy

Here's your honorary tattoo, facial scar, and sleeveless shirt to show off the guns baby.

You're welcome in the thread. I'm sure I put out the welcome sign for the girls as well.

JAGG

Serpentine

2008-02-03, 10:20 PM

Awesome :smallbiggrin: It's a dragon tat, right? Cool.
Cade: If Goff and I broke up - on friendly terms, as I expect - I'd probably keep telling him I love him for a while afterwards, until I properly got over him and/or found someone new. I think it depends what expectations you attach to it. It is even possible, contrary to Jagg's thoughts (:smalltongue:) that it's actually quite awkward for her. Mostly, though, I think it depends under what circumstances you broke up, and what exactly it really means when you say it - I'm madly in love with you and want to get together again? I still love you, but I'm okay with just being friends? I love you, as a friend? What? You said that you intend to stay single. Is this because of her? If so, I don't think it's particularly healthy, and I'd suggest that you review your relationship.

ZeroNumerous

2008-02-03, 10:25 PM

I'm a human, does that count?

Whether I'm, and I say this with a light heart, societies' view of what a true man should be is still up for debate.

I've more than once called a young girl "princess"(she was 6 and wearing the *cutest* little dress), and I call anyone "love" if they're willing to help me out with something. And yes, I call other men "love" because it's fun if they get upset about it :3. But I have a compulsion. I cannot, ever, be the last person in a queue of people waiting to use a door. I just, can't. As such, I hold doors open for everyone. Women call it chivalry. Guys call it good manners. Feminazis(Notice, I didn't say women!) call me a chauvinist. Insecure guys call me gay. I don't care, as their opinion of me means nothing, but I've seen pretty much every reaction possible to this course of action.

(Fun Fact: Standing outside for thirty minutes is boring! :smallannoyed:)

I've given up my seat on a bus once before(Pro-tip: We don't like people standing over us, so get as close as possible to maximize the uncomfortable feeling!), but not to a woman. I actually gave my bus-seat up to a young man(no more than 17, I'd say) who had his foot in a brace. I was sitting in the front, so I stood up and let him sit.

I don't understand women or men. But I do believe people are stupid. Not any one particular person, of course, but any group of people will almost always take the most moronic course of action possible. Because of that, I don't want to marry anyone (then again, I lack a religion to marry within, so it's not a relevant issue anyway! :smalltongue:)

I don't watch alot of T.V, but I know several women who are skinny, pointlessly beautiful, probably have shining intellects(Like, what's Wal-Mart?), and all the interesting stories of a brick. I don't find myself mentally attracted to them in the slightest. Sure, I could be physically attracted, as that's not under my control(gotta love those hormones) but given the choice between any of these girls or someone who's less beautiful but more interesting.. Well, my choice is obvious. :smallcool:

But I digress.

I'm a guy, physically, and a Nietzche(that man was not of our world), mentally. But if you ask me to name anyone in Football, I can tell you only of the famous guys who are all already dead/retired. (Joe Montana.. Uh.. Dale Earnheart?) So I don't think I'm a Man, because "Men" do not do this. So Says Friend Computer.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-03, 10:27 PM

To be fair, the vast majority of workplaces rectified this situation long ago.
Where are you posting from? That's honestly not the case here in the states, though things were much better when I was over in Finland. Men make more money at most positions (essentially minimum wage jobs and regulated, government positions notwithstanding) and are more likely to be promoted/get raises, as of 2006.

It's also a matter of getting those jobs.
This is very true, and something I should've brought up, as well.

Also, you seem like a fairly angry sort of a guy, but I like you :smallbiggrin:
Thanks. I liked your posts about the whole "friends" issues in other threads, but never said anything since you covered it quite well.

rather than by acting like men (see: Thatcher).
As a man, I am very insulted by that remark. :smallwink:

This (or at least the perception) is absolutely not so. They're just louder and more fun to listen to (yes, fun. You can't tell me you don't enjoy the feeling of self-righteous indignation and superiority you get from hearing these female chauvinists rant against men) than real feminists.
They also make better strawmen to argue against, and better reasons to complain about feminism without sounding like a total chauvanist.

but that's because they had to, to get any real change.
This is very true. Voices of extremes create voices of moderation. If the "extremes" aren't actually extremes (for instance, what is considered leftist in America actually falls on or right-of centre), the moderation created isn't really moderate, it's just a less extreme version of the previous extreme (centrism in America, thus, is right of centre, but not far right). Women might've gotten a few more rights, but not even close to equality.

Quick question. My ex calls about once a week, and I still say 'I love you'. Is there anything wrong with that? We both know it's still true and I'm currently single, and plan to stay so.
While I speak to my ex-, albeit much less often, I still leave my similar farewell (as I end most conversations with "I love you," I replace it with a phrase in Romani meaning "Good luck, and if that fails, you still have my love," for when most people would say "I love you,"), and it has been years. If you cared for someone enough to really say you loved them, I don't believe that ever goes away. While I don't mean one has to remain hung-up on a single person for one's entire life, I don't believe love is something one really falls out of, even if the relationship around the emotion doesn't work properly, I don't know that the emotion ever really goes away. I could just be a hoplessly romantic fop, though, in a much more likely eventuality.

Hell Puppi

2008-02-03, 10:37 PM

I say often that I was raised a gentleman.
Yup, this gets me some weird looks, but it's true. If someone needs help lifting or carrying something, I'm there. I open doors, help people find seats, ect. I don't do it because of sexism or equality, I do it because it's the polite thing to do, and I don't see why people make a big deal out of it (mostly the females).
Personally I think everyone would be better off if we kept around some gentlemanly behaviors.

I feel for you guys. Not sure whether to stick to the code of manly behaviors, or how you should really act. It's gotta be tough for a young man growing up now. I know it's been kinda tough for me. Even women get preached on about feminism and how we 'should' act, and then the very next day someone thinks you're not acting 'girly' enough. What the heck people? Guys can have long hair, women can have short. We can all wear pants and skirts. It doesn't matter. We're a grown-up civilization, we should be able to act and look whatever way we please.

Oops, sorry, went off on a tangent there. Um, yes, continue with the manliness!

Jagg

2008-02-03, 10:50 PM

Awesome :smallbiggrin: It's a dragon tat, right? Cool. Well mine is so...YES!.

Cade: If Goff and I broke up - on friendly terms, as I expect - I'd probably keep telling him I love him for a while afterwards, until I properly got over him and/or found someone new. I think it depends what expectations you attach to it. It is even possible, contrary to Jagg's thoughts (:smalltongue:) that it's actually quite awkward for her. Mostly, though, I think it depends under what circumstances you broke up, and what exactly it really means when you say it - I'm madly in love with you and want to get together again? I still love you, but I'm okay with just being friends? I love you, as a friend? What? You said that you intend to stay single. Is this because of her? If so, I don't think it's particularly healthy, and I'd suggest that you review your relationship.

Serpy. Hey I'm just working with what I've been given. SHE calls HIM, HE professes love, and they aren't together. Also she's calling him WEEKLY, so this isn't a one-time deal. It's a pattern of behaviour. So what's the deal? She's keeping him in reserve in case she can't trade up to a better model? Maybe she is having difficulty in letting go and having second thoughts. How does that make it right to string this guy along?

Why aren't they together? If she wanted to be back with him, she KNOWS he'd welcome her with open arms. So she either genuinely wants to remain friends, (which is rare - go watch When Harry met Sally) or she's using him as an emotional crutch.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-03, 10:57 PM

First, people actually do want to remain friends fairly often, from my experience. If one likes someone enough to be romantically involved, and nothing catastrophic occurs, why would one not wish to be friends? One evidently found a fair number of things about the person pleasant.
Second, why assume the worst? Maybe she calls him to be kind because she knows he still cares?

Jagg

2008-02-03, 11:00 PM

I'm a guy, physically, and a Nietzche(that man was not of our world), mentally. But if you ask me to name anyone in Football, I can tell you only of the famous guys who are all already dead/retired. (Joe Montana.. Uh.. Dale Earnheart?) So I don't think I'm a Man, because "Men" do not do this. So Says Friend Computer.

Zero,

Is being a man about having certain skills and knowledge? You're a man if you can drink your own weight in beer and name the superbowl winners for the last 50 years? You're not a man unless during the pissing contest you can outman every other guy by knowing certain things or acting in certain ways? Pah! Your computer/society is lying to you.

Cade

2008-02-03, 11:09 PM

long answer

1) Why is she your ex? Think back to when you broke up. What caused it? Do these reasons still exist? If so what's with the torch?

2) Wait, she calls you weekly? and you express your love for her? And her response for you putting your heart on your sleeve is... I'm guessing less than, :haley: take me now.....I think we should get back together?

What you're doing...Empowering her. Anytime she feels the need she can call you up and feel better about herself because here's a guy that I know loves me. I so fantastic he can't move on. I crushed his little heart and he still craves my attention. Bwahahar. Okay that was an exaggeration, but you get what I'm saying right?

My advice. Stop taking her calls for a couple of weeks. When she asks why, say, "I've been going out, meeting new people" {BTW I'd actually DO this} and then measure her reaction.

If she's like - "I'm so happy for you!" and she's genuine about it, apparently she just wants to be friends with you and is glad you've gotten over her - give up, you'll never get her back she's moved on - you haven't. I recommend you go out and meet new people, join a club, get a dog whatever. If I was more manly I'd say, Mates, Beer and Strippers.

If she's like "I'm so happy for you!" and you can hear her teeth clenched when she does it, she can't believe you've gotten over her, and realizes that you may no longer be her emotional whipping horse whom she can thrash for positive re-inforcement whenever she wishes. If this is the case do you really want to be with this person? If it was me and I was being used like that, I'd carefully stoke those fires of jealousy until you either end up with a Friend With Benefits, or can ravish her when she comes over to re-install the leash she has around your neck, and dump her manipulative heiny.

JAGG

Well, see, it's complicated.

I'm not sure how exactly she feels about me now or in the past. I do know I was originally introduced to serve as a jealousy causing tool.

Officially we split because she had a happy naughty fun time with a college kid at a party and then had a happy naughty fun time with me and then decided to let me know about the first one.

...But that's just a symptom. Really, I'm not with her because I'm not good enough. I'm two years younger (16 to her 18) and while that is the most obvious problem, it wasn't the worst.

If I told her I had moved on, though, she would be genuinely happy. I don't need to test it, I'm certain.

I forgave her the minute she told me, and so things haven't been awkward much. They just disintegrated.

Jagg

2008-02-03, 11:13 PM

First, people actually do want to remain friends fairly often, from my experience. If one likes someone enough to be romantically involved, and nothing catastrophic occurs, why would one not wish to be friends? Then if nothing catastrophic occurred why the separation? If the relationship ended over something trivial, why was it a large enough issue to break-up? Relationships need work. If she left him for something trivial what does that say about the relationship in the first place? If I rang up an ex who repeatedly professed love I'd wonder if my bunny was going to be safe and stop calling.

Second, why assume the worst? Maybe she calls him to be kind because she knows he still cares?
Well then she's NOT being kind by stringing him along and letting him think that perhaps they have a chance after all. How long do you think he would continue saying "I love you" if she continually rebuffed him and said "I don't feel about you that way". Perhaps we are dealing with someone who is not emotionally mature enough to realize this.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-03, 11:20 PM

Then if nothing catastrophic occurred why the separation? If the relationship ended over something trivial, why was it a large enough issue to break-up? Relationships need work. If she left him for something trivial what does that say about the relationship in the first place? If I rang up an ex who repeatedly professed love I'd wonder if my bunny was going to be safe and stop calling.
Sometimes things just don't work out, the passion goes away or you find someone else you feel more strongly about, or you find different romantic paths; I want kids and you do not. Such events aren't the sort of catastrophic things as to cause emnity, but they can end a realtionship.

Well then she's NOT being kind by stringing him along and letting him think that perhaps they have a chance after all. How long do you think he would continue saying "I love you" if she continually rebuffed him and said "I don't feel about you that way". Perhaps we are dealing with someone who is not emotionally mature enough to realize this.
I'm not sure I agree with the logic, though I could accept it. It seems you're just automatically villifying the girl in this situation and assuming sinister motives when there are plenty of alternatives.

Cade

2008-02-03, 11:27 PM

Well then she's NOT being kind by stringing him along and letting him think that perhaps they have a chance after all. How long do you think he would continue saying "I love you" if she continually rebuffed him and said "I don't feel about you that way". Perhaps we are dealing with someone who is not emotionally mature enough to realize this.

There are no chances. I get this. She doesn't love me, I don't think she ever did, and there is a 0 probability of anything but being friends. That's enough for me to pick up the phone once a week. Although, maybe that's still emotionally immature...

Jagg

2008-02-04, 12:02 AM

Cool more details......

Well, see, it's complicated.

I'm not sure how exactly she feels about me now or in the past. I do know I was originally introduced to serve as a jealousy causing tool. RED FLAG!!!! RED FLAG!!!!

Officially we split because she had a happy naughty fun time with a college kid at a party and then had a happy naughty fun time with me and then decided to let me know about the first one.

...But that's just a symptom. Really, I'm not with her because I'm not good enough.

*slap* Cade did you feel that? Here I'll do it again....*SLAP* Don't EVER say I'm not good enough. You just told yourself that you deserve to be treated like the stinky stuff on the bottom on my shoe. What you deserve is to be treated with some level of respect and dignity rather than being treated in this way. What you deserve is the same level of commitment and devotion as you put into the relationship. If she's been off catting around, what does that say about how she feels about you? It says that she doesn't give a damn. Okay maybe she was completely toasted (hey I've been to uni parties and knows what goes on), maybe it was the alcohol doing the thinking that caused her to 1) endanger your relationship 2) endanger your health by introducing a potential STD - remember if she didn't use protection it's as if you just slept with some strange guy at a college party. If that's the case then the respectful thing to do would be to TELL you BEFORE naughty happy fun time, tell you that she made a huge mistake and that she didn't mean to hurt you. Lets give her the benefit of the doubt, she was so cut up (and emotionally immature) that she couldn't admit her mistake. YOU HAVE BEEN WRONGED. Remember this. And you are letting yourself be treated in a way that undermines your own self respect.[/quote]

I'm two years younger (16 to her 18) and while that is the most obvious problem, it wasn't the worst.

Age means nothing in a mature relationship - which this obviously isn't.

If I told her I had moved on, though, she would be genuinely happy. I don't need to test it, I'm certain. I forgave her the minute she told me, and so things haven't been awkward much. They just disintegrated.

Cade, I don't know how to express this in a way that is ....eloquent, supportive of your emotional needs, and helps you down that road of emotional discovery and maturation. I'm just going to say it...and probably stuff it up. Hey that's something we men are good at doing.

You've been treated like a doormat. STOMP STOMP STOMP. You can choose to either BE a doormat and continue the self destructive emotional journey that you are currently on. Or you can change, learn to like yourself and find value in who you are. I would highly recommend a clean break from this creature who is DEFINATELY using you as an emotional crutch. She probably feels guilty..SHE SHOULD FEEL GUILTY, and her guilt is making her feel sorry for you. Do you enjoy being pitied? Go look for a real girl who values you and you can be happy with.

This isn't healthy.

JAGG

Jagg

2008-02-04, 12:07 AM

Hmm I obviously wasn't clear...

Sometimes things just don't work out,Relationships need work the passion goes away Relationships need workor you find someone else you feel more strongly about,relationships need work or you find different romantic paths;relationships need work I want kids and you do not.relationships need work Such events aren't the sort of catastrophic things as to cause emnity, but they can end a realtionship.

I'm not sure I agree with the logic, though I could accept it. It seems you're just automatically villifying the girl in this situation and assuming sinister motives when there are plenty of alternatives.

Having read what else Cade wrote, do I even bother responding to this? She's totally using him. I stand by what I said.

JAGG

Serpentine

2008-02-04, 12:33 AM

Da Beast

2008-02-04, 12:40 AM

This (or at least the perception) is absolutely not so. They're just louder and more fun to listen to (yes, fun. You can't tell me you don't enjoy the feeling of self-righteous indignation and superiority you get from hearing these female chauvinists rant against men) than real feminists. I believe that men and women should have equal opportunities in life and not be disadvantaged in any way by their gender. Thus, I am a feminist. Most women and, indeed, most men will be feminists. What you're seeing is female chauvinists hiding their bigotry behind a misappropriated label, and the sooner you realise this, I think, the better off you'll be. Some true feminists, specifically in the early days, did get right across into the other extreme, but that's because they had to, to get any real change. That had to pull so hard that they needed to go too far to get the needed leverage to drag the backward "women belong in the home" men (and women) into line. I'm not saying such extremes are good, but in the context of the struggle I think it makes sense, and in some cases was a necessary evil. Unfortunately, now that it's no longer really necessary, some people have hung onto the attitude.

I understand all this and I know that the few crazies always manage to drown out the more reasonable majority. This thread just brought up some issues and I felt the need to rant a bit. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

ZeroNumerous

2008-02-04, 12:43 AM

Pah! Your computer/society is lying to you.

Just to note. I was using Sarcasm. :smallsmile:

Jagg

2008-02-04, 12:48 AM

Just to note. I was using Sarcasm. :smallsmile:

NEW RULE!!!!!

All sarcasm form now on must use the special tags provided.

So as not to cause confusion

ZeroNumerous

2008-02-04, 01:00 AM

[COLOR="Red"]All sarcasm form now on must use the special tags provided.

Oh come on. How does "So Says Friend Computer" not sound like sarcasm? :smallfrown:

Jagg

2008-02-04, 01:10 AM

Regarding "relationships can only end badly": My first real relationship ended because I knew he felt so much more for me than I did for him, and I felt like I was stringing him along. I broke up with him, and he was cut up about it (more than I knew at the time :smalleek:), and he was still in love with me some years later, but now he's gotten himself a girlfriend and we're still friends.
My current boyfriend... We've been together for 3 1/2 years. We're very much in love with each other, and, I suppose, could see us spending the rest of our lives together... eventually. On the other hand, we're both curious to see what it's like being with other people, or even with noone at all (and we have discussed this). Last year, there was a great possibility that he'd be going interstate to get a job. If that had happened, we would have split up, with no ill feeling on either side. At some point, I have little doubt, we will break up, maybe with the possibility of getting back together at some later date after some experience apart in the world, maybe not. In any case, we'll be breaking up on good terms, through a concious and (I hope...) mature decision, not some catastrophe.
Sometimes, you just fall out of love, or it turns out that what you felt wasn't really love after all *shrug*

*Sigh* Serpy that is ...... sad.
It seems that people don't understnd that a mature relationship needs work. It needs periods of exploration and a renewal and joint growth, otherwise people do tend to just grow apart. The bonds of love are historically given to be unbreakable, in practice this is of course not the reality that the poets and authors would have you believe.

Is it something caused by our plastic throw-away society? Relationships are too hard to maintain after the initial rush of blood and the honeymoon is over? I think it's sad that this guy obviously loved you very much and you didn't return the feelings with the same strength that he did. It seems that it was a surprise to you how much he loved you, which tells me that this guy (like a lot of guys) had difficulty in communicating his feelings and that you as a couple didn't talk as much as you perhaps should have. What do I know though, I'm on the outside looking in. I know that when I was going out with the girlfriend who turned into wife, we each had opportunities to prove to the other how we felt, and now that we are married and older, we still look for and engineer opportunities to let each other know how we feel. Of course people are curious, but Serpy have you ever found the grass to be greener on the other side of the fence? Okay maudlin rambling post over and we now return you to our regularly sheduled program of groin scratching...

Serpentine

2008-02-04, 01:32 AM

If Goff and I were ever to spend the rest of our lives together, wouldn't it be better that we satisfy our curiosity first, before making this great commitment to each other? If the grass is, as you say, always greener on the other side, won't that make it that much easier to stay true? Anyway, I have no delusions that, to continue on with that term, the grass will be greener over there. I just want to know what shade of brown it is. It's not about finding something better, it's just about... well, you wouldn't never go to another country just because you like where you live, would you? I'm well aware that relationships take work. I'm just not ready to do that sort of work. That's not what I want at this stage. If we did break up, and he found someone else and got married and I forever lost my chance to be with him, well, that's my loss. It's no great tragedy to be friends.
You're right about it being sad, with my ex. I realised later that it probably wouldn't really have mattered to him, if I never loved him back, he just liked being with me... I wasn't ready to be "A Couple" (and there was the added pressure that his parents had been together since they were in their teens...), and, to be frank, his intensity scared me. Believe me when I say breaking up with him was no light matter - I felt physically sick for weeks before I finally gathered the nerve to go through with it. I really am genuinely happy that he's found himself a lovely girlfriend (moved in and all!). He really does deserve someone to love him. And he's grown into such a coot ickle metalhead >.<
Anyway, what's the point in trying to force something that isn't there? It feels kinda like you think that all relationships have equal chances of lasting, that all any pair needs is to put in the right amount of effort for things to be hunky-dory. Sometimes, it just doesn't work out, and if each participant acknowledges that, comes to term with it and responds maturely, there's no reason for the relationship to have to crash and burn before it ends. Yes, there is always a reason for it, but not always some disaster.
<.<
>.>
>scratches groin<

Hell Puppi

2008-02-04, 01:41 AM

Serp, I can understand were you're coming from.
I was in a relationship with someone I loved, but unfortunatly we had gotten together during high school, and he was due to ship out to the military by the time I would start college. We had planned to get engaged so i could follow, but it was too much too fast (well we had been dating for about 2 years at that point). We decided to part (well, I decided, he wanted to stay together), mostly because I was afraid of the commitment and responsibility of staying, being a military wife at such a young age, ect.
We went our separate ways and dated some other people, got to know a lot more about ourself, and just grew up in general. We both agree now that it would've been a mistake to get married because we both would've been unhappy later without knowing what it would be like with other people.

We did end up getting back together and have been dating for a year now, but taking the time to date other people taught me a lot (because I pick winners--man the stories *shakes head*), and I realized how much I still cared about him when we saw each other again and got a chance to talk.

Note: How my relationship ended does not mean your will end the same way (with you getting back together), I'm just saying I understand and think it's rational.

Hmmm... >.>
((follows serpy's example, scratches self, gets beer, belches loudly))

Serpentine

2008-02-04, 02:01 AM

>takes belch as a challenge, initiates burping contest because, dammit, I'm good, and bollocks to Goff and his outdated ideas of "manners" and "that's disgusting!"<

ZeroNumerous

2008-02-04, 02:06 AM

*Stays all prim and proper, then cleans up the beer cans around Serpentine and HellPuppi*

Why I nevah. (I'm southern, sue me)

Blayze

2008-02-04, 10:00 AM

The thing is that it seems like the selfish misogynists vastly outnumber the true feminists.

You mean "misandrists", I believe.

I think what Blayze needs to acknowledge is that this really was a huge problem

I think it falls under the "(un)common sense" category that it *was* a problem. I didn't feel I needed to mention it.

However, if an employer in this field is confronted with a male and a female applicant, no matter how fit the woman might be or how well she works, the male will almost certainly be chosen.

Can you prove that?

I'm saying it may have more to do with the fact that she was your [i]little[i/] sister

So? What does it *matter* that she's my little sister? It doesn't mean I should let her win simply because she complained about it. Hell, if we were all given things because of complaining, us English would have nothing left to complain about! The moaning is what keeps us, as a country, going!

and was, evidently, crying or near to it

For the record, she wasn't crying. She was complaining.

Your experience contradicts virtually all statistics taken, I guess. Men make more for the same jobs. They have for years.

Ah, the statistics. I was talking about this on MSN with a friend last night, and he linked me to this "Warren Farrell" guy, and these quotes.

http://www.warrenfarrell.net/TheBook/index.html

"• Survey 2001: Men who never married, never had a child, worked full time and were college educated earn only 85% of what women with the same criteria earn. (p. xxii)"

"If an employer had to pay a man more money for the same work a woman could be paid less for, then why would anybody hire a man?"

I'm going to have to do some research into this Warren guy. I have to find out if he's full of it or not.

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-04, 10:07 AM

Ooh, another 2 cents. Why always the small girl/big man pairing? I hate that. Physiologically(all that straining whenever you want to kiss, or else she puts her back out wearing heels all the time), psychologically(the guy will generally avoid confrontation, due to the size disparity, and the woman will overcompensate with the "fiery little sparkplug" attitude), and physically(I find that having both of roughly even size means you don't have to switch on and off certain psychological blocks regarding equality and size). Oh yeah, and from a pseudo-eugenical standpoint, it leads to ever smaller women and ever larger guys, which puts us ever closer to the future of H.G. Wells, with those vegetarian midget Eloi and the cannibalistic Morlocks. Especially when you note that girls are usually more likely to go veg(The animals are too cute to eat!!!).

Serpentine

2008-02-04, 10:07 AM

I think it falls under the "(un)common sense" category that it *was* a problem. I didn't feel I needed to mention it.I note that you disregarded the rest of that sentence.

Can you prove that?No, I can't, I don't have the statistics on hand and I don't know where to look for them. Think about it yourself, though: If you were in the employers situation, what would you do? Considering your signature, I think it'll come to you fairly quickly.

So? What does it *matter* that she's my little sister? It doesn't mean I should let her win simply because she complained about it. Hell, if we were all given things because of complaining, us English would have nothing left to complain about! The moaning is what keeps us, as a country, going!I think you may have missed the point of his post, which was that it wasn't so much that it was your little sister so much as your little sibling.

"If an employer had to pay a man more money for the same work a woman could be paid less for, then why would anybody hire a man?"Because the people who are paying women less assume that men are better workers.

Anyway, this is meant to be a thread on men's business. Shouldn't you all be talking about, ionno, football and the best crotch-snatching technique or something?[/chauvinism]:smalltongue:

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-04, 10:32 AM

See, there is no best technique for crotch-grabbing. There's the quick one for when you're in public, the slow and steady for when you have lots of itchy spots and you're alone, etc.

Death, your friend the Reaper

2008-02-04, 10:59 AM

Telonius

2008-02-04, 11:13 AM

"• Survey 2001: Men who never married, never had a child, worked full time and were college educated earn only 85% of what women with the same criteria earn. (p. xxii)"

"If an employer had to pay a man more money for the same work a woman could be paid less for, then why would anybody hire a man?"

I'm going to have to do some research into this Warren guy. I have to find out if he's full of it or not.

Just offhand it occurs to me that a big confound might be homosexual men. I'm fairly certain that homosexuals make up a larger portion of the male population than the female population. If a homosexual man is living with his partner (and by most states' definitions, can't be married) that could affect both of their earning patterns.

Baerdog7

2008-02-04, 11:16 AM

Telonius

2008-02-04, 11:18 AM

Things ending badly ... Everything ends badly. Otherwise it wouldn't end.

Cookie if you know where that quote's from without using Google. :smallbiggrin:

Blayze

2008-02-04, 11:22 AM

I think you may have missed the point of his post, which was that it wasn't so much that it was your little sister so much as your little sibling.

No, I got the point all right. It just carries no weight with me.

one that still hasn't truly been rectified and that still needs to be struggled against to avoid it returning in full force (if more subtly).

Since you mentioned it, here's the rest of that sentence. I can't, however, really comment on this part of the sentence until I have more information (And find out if that Warren guy's statistics are correct), especially on how those statistics were compiled.

Think about it yourself, though: If you were in the employers situation, what would you do? Considering your signature, I think it'll come to you fairly quickly.

Firstly, "Feminism is hate speech" refers to *my* view of feminism (From my first post in here), that it is a movement that concentrates on *women* and that, therefore, can never be a movement seeking equality (Human nature, after all. There'll never be a point where the feminists say "Yep, we're done." They're humans, after all. They'll want more and more, and the movement will always continue in that vein.). Sure, my sig's dramatising it somewhat, but it's an eyecatch, which is what it was designed to do. :P

And to be honest, I wouldn't *be* in the employer's situation. I'm far too "minimum wage" for that. Seriously, though, I can't comment until I *get* in that position, just as in a recent topic on another forum about "Good vs Evil", there was a conversation about sacrificing others for the "Greater Good". I believe the choice was "Kill one person to save five." I couldn't say what I'd do and what I wouldn't do, as I haven't *been* in that situation yet.

Sure, I could claim "Well, I'd stand on my hands and determine my latests employee by a game of Pazaak", but... Actually, that might be weird enough to work.

Because the people who are paying women less assume that men are better workers.

Never underestimate the desire of upper and middle management to save money. My council have gone so far as to completely cripple our department's budget (Slashed it by a million pounds this year), just in order to pay for high-earning people from outside to come in and 'restructure' the entire council, costing the taxpayers millions (I think, at last count, the total debt was about twenty million quid).

the best crotch-snatching

Snatching our own or those of others? Y'see, it all comes down to working the angles...

Shadow

2008-02-04, 11:24 AM

Men Only For This Spoiler Please

How many femanists does it take to change a light bulb?
It dosen't matter, feminists can't change anything!
And for all of you women that read that :smalltongue: We all knew you were nosy.How many divorced women does it take to change a lightbulb?Eleven.
One to change the lightbulb and ten to form a support group.

How many divorced men does it take to change a lightbulb?Who knows!? The men never get the damn house!

Pepper

2008-02-04, 12:08 PM

Telonius

2008-02-04, 12:51 PM

Well, we are all unique and beautiful creations. But personally my choice to avoid man-ual labor (cruel, cruel language tricks!) has more to do with pay than with being "too good for it." If you offer me a job as a ditch-digger 40 hours a week, at $25/hour, I'll certainly take it.

And as far as the traditional role of women in the home? Well, as you said, we don't have to worry (much) about them being raped or kidnapped. And they also don't need to do the gathering part of hunter-gatherers anymore. Why keep the role, long after the reasons for its existence have faded away?

My dream job is a full-time novelist (70k words done, so far, on my first book). It's what I want to do, and I think I'm reasonably skilled at writing. My wife wants to run a business. She's reasonably skilled at it, and it's what she wants to do. When we have a child, I'm going to stay at home and care for him or her. It makes most sense, since I can write from home and she can't run her business from home. So where does that fit in with the "traditional" roles? Should I not have the freedom to choose that for myself?

Pepper

2008-02-04, 01:07 PM

You do have the freedom to choose for yourself. And fortunately you live in a society, where there are others that will pick up the slack, when able bodied men decide to stay home. And ditch digging is a 25$ an hour a job, you drive a "pick" or someother type of backhoe, But of course....

The problem is when the jobs that are now being left vacant by your decision, are also being left vacant by your peers, and their children. This causes an influx of foreign labour to fill positions that you have chosen not to do......and when it comes right down to it, the foreign labour will soon have the financial capital to allow its members to choose to take non-contributing careers, while the descendents of your peer base, will find that they no-longer have those willing to continue to support their society, and have little choice but to assume the supporting roles themselves.

We can't upend the basis of our society and expect it to not fall over.

Baerdog7

2008-02-04, 01:11 PM

Let's try and keep this thread about Men in the Playground, rather than Economics in the Playground please.

Not to devalue your points, Pepper, because they are good ones. Your last ones were just getting closer and closer to being off-topic.

*belch*

Cuddly

2008-02-04, 01:15 PM

Trog

2008-02-04, 01:22 PM

I guess I'll start making soap....
*Brings in a load of fat from the liposuction clinic to help begin*

Telonius

2008-02-04, 01:32 PM

Timberwolf

2008-02-04, 01:43 PM

KindaChang

2008-02-04, 02:39 PM

Shademan

2008-02-04, 02:47 PM

Some are not learned culturally. No matter how much you try to get gender neutral toys the boys are more likely to find some sort of physical competition to engage in than the girls. Some things are just hardwired in, and you get Norman Bates when you try to change that.

What is the consistent standard across all cultures is that males will tend to do their best to excel at what the society determines makes males a good mate, and females will tend to do the same. Not all will follow this, especially in a culture with many different methods of determining a suitable mate, however.

I suppose that means to determine what is masculine in our society you have to look at what the females generally want in a mate. I have my own thoughts on this, and if I tried to share them now the post would become ungodly long, so let's hear what others have to say first.

Methinks that'l be called "testosterone".

What exactly is the male equivalent of a feminist, you know, someone who stands up for men's rights (I assume there is someone, somewhere who actually does this) ?

Females are feminine, and when they "fight for female rights" they're Feminists. Therefore a Man (which is MACHO) fighting for "male rights" is a Machoist.

*note: HUMOR!*

Telonius

2008-02-04, 03:22 PM

Some are not learned culturally. No matter how much you try to get gender neutral toys the boys are more likely to find some sort of physical competition to engage in than the girls. Some things are just hardwired in, and you get Norman Bates when you try to change that.

What is the consistent standard across all cultures is that males will tend to do their best to excel at what the society determines makes males a good mate, and females will tend to do the same. Not all will follow this, especially in a culture with many different methods of determining a suitable mate, however.

Definitely good points! Like I said, there are probably some things that are common across cultures, and that's probably the "inherently" masculine stuff. It might be inherent for men to be, on average, better spatial thinkers than women; or have a denser muscle mass than women. It's not genetically inherent for men to hold the door open for women, or to completely lack empathy. Interesting side note, though; autism (which is often accompanied by an observed "lack of empathy") affects more men than women.

I suppose that means to determine what is masculine in our society you have to look at what the females generally want in a mate. I have my own thoughts on this, and if I tried to share them now the post would become ungodly long, so let's hear what others have to say first.

Economic stability is a big one, although many people don't want to admit it. If traditionally "feminine" behaviors (if not actual females) are rewarded in the work world, those behaviors would become more desirable in a mate - and gradually be redefined as "masculine."

SDF

2008-02-04, 03:39 PM

Where are you posting from? That's honestly not the case here in the states, though things were much better when I was over in Finland. Men make more money at most positions (essentially minimum wage jobs and regulated, government positions notwithstanding) and are more likely to be promoted/get raises, as of 2006.

This is very true. Voices of extremes create voices of moderation. If the "extremes" aren't actually extremes (for instance, what is considered leftist in America actually falls on or right-of centre), the moderation created isn't really moderate, it's just a less extreme version of the previous extreme (centrism in America, thus, is right of centre, but not far right). Women might've gotten a few more rights, but not even close to equality.

I'm not sure which Bureau of Labor Statistics report you've been reading, but that is just a broad spectrum statement with no weight at all. I find the assertion that leftists in the US being right of center ridiculous.

However, if an employer in this field is confronted with a male and a female applicant, no matter how fit the woman might be or how well she works, the male will almost certainly be chosen. Although it is depressingly generalising and stupidly sexist in itself, the saying "a woman has to do something twice as well as a man to be considered half as good" does sometimes have some merit.

I can't speak for Australia, but in the US that is very illegal. The 60's and 70's saw a lot of lawsuits about just that and now companies follow exact government guidelines and are extremely strict about them.

The one thing that has bugged me about this topic is the speculative arguing from both sides without any data, polls, or statistics weighing in. One topic I will bring up is that a study was done on the amount of money women versus men make, and when factors such as education and work experience were considered women make 98 cents on the dollar to men in the US. And this wasn't some conservative study, it was done by the National Organization for Women (NOW)

ZeroNumerous

2008-02-04, 03:43 PM

Well, we are all unique and beautiful creations.

None of us are beautiful or unique snowflakes. [/sarcasm]

If you offer me a job as a ditch-digger 40 hours a week, at $25/hour, I'll certainly take it.

Try Colorado. They were looking for manual laborers for road expansion and were offering 17-20$/hour starting out, with hazard pay and several other benefits.

What exactly is the male equivalent of a feminist, you know, someone who stands up for men's rights (I assume there is someone, somewhere who actually does this) ?

We don't have a word. Sorry kiddo.

Jagg

2008-02-04, 04:53 PM

This is an honest question, asked because I really don't know the answer.

We've heard someones (I am sorry, I can't remember who) 3 different types of feminist mentioned and that got me thinking.

What exactly is the male equivalent of a feminist, you know, someone who stands up for men's rights (I assume there is someone, somewhere who actually does this) ?

Masculinist ? Sounds odd, doesnt roll off the tongue as well as feminist. Manist ? same gig.

Best I can come up with is "Fathers 4 Justice campaigner" and, in the case of Kevin Federline, "lawyer".

Great, women get a movement the world over and we get to either pay through the nose to someone who'd switch sides for a few pence more or get the guy dressed as Batman to chain himself to a bridge.

Misogynist: One who hates women
Misandrist: One who hates men
Feminist: A person whose beliefs and behaviour are based on Feminsim
Feminism: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

Someone else mentioned it. The word should be Equalist. Apparently we men have all the positions of power, so we don't need advocates or organisations to ensure equality. I'm all for equal. I'm not all for the inequalities that occur in the other direction. I remember a campaign that went through my wife's school a few years back. "Girls can do anything." Full of warm fuzzy thoughts and examples about how girls were entering more traditionally male dominated industries like the military, construction, and big business. Cool. Where was the campaign for boys? The one that nourished their self esteem and gave them goals to aim for?

<insert sound of grasshoppers here>

Ahh.

Adjusts manhood and passes gas.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-04, 04:56 PM

Women in our society no longer need the protection of men. If we were to take our women, and transport them to a part of the world where women required the constant protection of their men in order to keep from being raped, kidnapped, murdered etc....i bet we would find that the feminist movement had a whole lot less support.
Only "their men" could no longer protect them there. Had society evolved in a different path than it did in Europe, "their men" wouldn't really ever have protected them at all. In other places, women were equally capable warriors. If we were to put our men in a similar situation, they would rely on strong women to protect them just as much as a woman would a strong man.

If our families were not so devalued, then the traditional role of women in the home would be championed, as a necessary and fundamental part of our happiness and well being.
If my dad stayed home, I would be a psychotic wreck of a human being, because the person with the feather duster had dangly bits where he should not have? I don't buy it.

Unfortunately brainwashing by the video age has taught children that they are all unique and beautiful creations, too good for the manual work that need be done, and too exceptional to be cast in traditional roles.
This is the same video-age brainwashing that tells African Americans they should not be slaves that tells women they don't have to stay in the kitchen, right? That is unfortunate. I could use some workers I didn't have to pay and could beat to death if I was in a bad mood.

All we are really accomplishing is giving women the right to be homeless and out of work, as opposed to seeing them as one half of a proper union designed to promote happiness and well being.
Women could be homeless before. In fact, with only one person bringing money into a household, losing the home is more likely. If my grandma had stayed in the damn kitchen as you seem to advocate, my mom and her two siblings would've damn sure been homeless right along with her when my alcoholic Grandfather left. Unless it was her lack of sandwich-making that drove him to drinking and physical abuse, thereby making this all her fault?

If there are not enough jobs for even the men, then reason stands that there will be even less jobs for the men AND women. Enjoy your recession..you earned it.
Oversimplification and Aristotilian logic do not make for good economics, but they sure do seem to make bigotry easy.

What exactly is the male equivalent of a feminist, you know, someone who stands up for men's rights (I assume there is someone, somewhere who actually does this)?
By definition, that is still a feminist.

I find the assertion that leftists in the US being right of center ridiculous.
Democrats, the "left" party had two candidates in this year's primaries who actually broke left of centre line on a political compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008), and I believe both of them (Kucinich and Gravel) have dropped out of the race by now. Back over in Finland, almost every candidate was below midline, but there's a good number left and right of it (although Right almost always wins).

I can't speak for Australia, but in the US that is very illegal.
So is murder. That still happens here in America, quite often, in fact.

women make 98 cents on the dollar to men in the US. And this wasn't some conservative study, it was done by the National Organization for Women (NOW)
98 cents is less than a dollar, you may note. 2% is actually a fairly substantial difference, especially at larger wages.

SDF

2008-02-04, 05:12 PM

Democrats, the "left" party had two candidates in this year's primaries who actually broke left of centre line on a political compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008), and I believe both of them (Kucinich and Gravel) have dropped out of the race by now. Back over in Finland, almost every candidate was below midline, but there's a good number left and right of it (although Right almost always wins).

It's important to note that their use of authoritarian and libertarian is different than the American usage. Also if you click on EU governments the spread is almost the exact same as the US candidate spread. I don't want to get into political specifics though and wont speak on this anymore.

98 cents is less than a dollar, you may note. 2% is actually a fairly substantial difference, especially at larger wages.

Sure, but it shows the gap has almost completely closed from where it has been. I will agree that other equality factors could be looked at to get over 99%, but the framework is there and the system doesn't need any overhaul.

So is murder. That still happens here in America, quite often, in fact.

Okay, this is just ridiculous and disproportionate. If you talked to any HR manager I'm sure they would tell you just how strict they are about it, and how the company will fire them if they aren't. Or, I'm sure the Bureau of Labor Statistics has some data on the subject.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-04, 05:22 PM

Yes, things have greatly improved, but that's largely thanks to feminism, which is what I was saying, along with the fact that there still is a difference, even if it's comparatively small.

As for the murder thing, my point was only that something being illegal doesnt' stop it from happening, though it's certainly a step in the right direction. Illegalizing discrimination will never end it, though, it'll just make it harder to put into practice. Which is never a bad thing, it's just not like it makes the problem go away; many people, similarly, regard racism as a thing of the past ever since the Civil Rights movement.

SDF

2008-02-04, 05:32 PM

I'm really not trying to argue against feminism. My point was that, while there still is a gap, it is significantly smaller than many people would have you believe. I took a diversity class around the time the study was published at my Uni, and they had some statistics showing how white women made 70some cents on the dollar and asian women made 80some and black and hispanic women made significantly less than both. I do some of my own research into it and I find out it is statistical garbage because they were picking and choosing the parameters of the data. (I've taken a lot of math statistics and I know just how easy it is to make data appear to be well in your favor just by excluding, or choosing certain aspects to focus on)

And the reason I think the murder example isn't applicable is because the companies with government regulations are very self regulating (in fact many companies get x and y from the government for having a demographically diverse employee makeup, but eh, I'm not going to touch affirmative action)

Jagg

2008-02-04, 05:48 PM

Women in our society no longer need the protection of men. If we were to take our women, and transport them to a part of the world where women required the constant protection of their men in order to keep from being raped, kidnapped, murdered etc....i bet we would find that the feminist movement had a whole lot less support. Wow. just wow Pepper. Of course it's also a known fact (and I can't be bothered to go find the studies so go look for them yourself) that a VERY large proportion of violence towards women occurs in the family home - not some random encounter.[/quote]

If our families were not so devalued, then the traditional role of women in the home would be championed, as a necessary and fundamental part of our happiness and well being. Unfortunately brainwashing by the video age has taught children that they are all unique and beautiful creations, too good for the manual work that need be done, and too exceptional to be cast in traditional roles.

Pepper - I don't want my wife to be my mother. I also don't want my wife to be my slave. I want my wife to be my equal. Half of a loving partnership. Why should she do all the housework while I do all the income earning? Now I'm on a good wicket. I make enough that my wife could be a kept woman (and she was whilst the rugrat was an infant) she however wanted to get back into the workforce. Should I say no? Chain her to the sink and keep her barefoot and pregnant? Keep her under my thumb and under my control? Drag her back into the cave by her hair and grunt at the fire? Or should I perhaps enable her to fulfill some of her goals and aims in life in the spirit of mutual growth and respect? [/quote]

All we are really accomplishing is giving women the right to be homeless and out of work, as opposed to seeing them as one half of a proper union designed to promote happiness and well being. If there are not enough jobs for even the men, then reason stands that there will be even less jobs for the men AND women. Enjoy your recession..you earned it.

It appears you know less about economics than you think. One of these is a contributing factor to a potential U.S. recession...guess which.

1) It's because women work and take jobs from men!!!
2) It's because Banks in the U.S. and elsewhere (an industry largely dominated by males) used the cheap government interest rates (determined by a group largely dominated by males) to lend money and group those lendings into securitisation products of dubious quality. When the housing downturn occurred, these products of dubious quality were significantly reduced in value and quality, causing many large banking institutions to post massive losses and further destabilize an already nervous market.

Look closely boys at Pepper. Read his views. Make up your own minds whether what he says is what you want to believe or not.

JAGG

Proven_Paradox

2008-02-04, 06:44 PM

Okay. There is something here that all the men have missed, and frankly, I am disappointed that this has not been mentioned yet.

>scratches groin<

((follows serpy's example, scratches self, gets beer, belches loudly))

...

Mmm. That's hot.

Jagg

2008-02-04, 08:17 PM

So what exactly is "being masculine"? Who determines what counts as masculine? There's probably some traits that are common across cultures, but a lot of the "masculine" behaviors that people exhibit are learned culturally. If they weren't learned, how would it possible for a man to become more "feminine" in his behavior? These ideas about what counts as manly change over time, and from place to place. I know the Greeks at the time of Plato had some interesting ideas about who the manliest men were. They certainly weren't the same as what was present in medieval Europe, or modern America.

Telonius this is an interesting question. I think you'll find that there are a number of influences when dealing with social memes. As KindaChang stated below, many of these influences are determined because we try and make ourselves more attractive to women (and therefore pass on our genetic material). There is also the influence of what men (our peer group) think is manly. It amazes me however that these two things are so vastly different from each other. The negative influence of peer group pressure exists here. It tends to create confused messages for young men about what masculinity means.

Some are not learned culturally. No matter how much you try to get gender neutral toys the boys are more likely to find some sort of physical competition to engage in than the girls. Some things are just hardwired in, and you get Norman Bates when you try to change that.

What is the consistent standard across all cultures is that males will tend to do their best to excel at what the society determines makes males a good mate, and females will tend to do the same. Not all will follow this, especially in a culture with many different methods of determining a suitable mate, however.

I suppose that means to determine what is masculine in our society you have to look at what the females generally want in a mate. I have my own thoughts on this, and if I tried to share them now the post would become ungodly long, so let's hear what others have to say first.

In one of the first posts I stated that unless you met some kind of internal list that most women carry around in their head the likelihood that she'll be immediately amenable to receive your genetic material is slim to none. Certain broad theme's can be identified, but only because the statistics tend to blend into each other when dealing with large population studies. It's a mystery why women find certain people attractive and others not. My wife thinks that Colin Farrell is a bit rowr, but thinks that Robbie Williams is vomit inducing. (To me they look like they could be brothers)

Jagg

2008-02-04, 08:22 PM

Okay. There is something here that all the men have missed, and frankly, I am disappointed that this has not been mentioned yet.

...

Mmm. That's hot.

Or Thrush :smallfrown:

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-04, 09:21 PM

I personally think Humphrey Bogart is pretty much the prime example of manliness, particularly in Casablanca.

Eldritch Knight

2008-02-04, 10:40 PM

Gentlemen, Gentlemen, please may I remind you of the universal prayer of manhood?

I am a Man,
But I can change,
If I have to,
I guess.

Use it wisely, as it is a powerful evocation of self defense. The only evocation more powerful than this is the legendary "Yes, Dear!"

Aereshaa_the_2nd

2008-02-04, 11:59 PM

First of all, Hi. I'm a fourteen-year-old, long-haired, male gamer & H4**0R.

About the holding doors for girls. I do it, not for some manners reason, but because the girls I know expect it. I think going out of your way to be nice to girls is a good way to get a reputation for being a nice person, because girls are the ones with the emotions & 'feelings', ya know. None of the girls I know complain about getting 'special treatment' when I hold doors open for them.
Also, there's no 'mystery' about them. They're, in general, just nicer than most boys I know (there are exceptions), and expect everyone to treat them the way they treat everyone. There's no mystery about being nice.

Jagg

2008-02-05, 12:25 AM

First of all, Hi. I'm a fourteen-year-old, long-haired, male gamer & H4**0R. Welcome. Okay maybe I'm just an old fogey who's not down with the lingo but that last word makes no sense. My typically dirty male mind however came up with a solution and it means a women of negotiable affection that rhymes with door. Look try and say it out loud...Phonetically it fits!!!:smallbiggrin:

About the holding doors for girls. I do it, not for some manners reason, but because the girls I know expect it. ummm...that's not right. If they pick fights with drunk neanderthal men at nightclubs (admitedly at 14 you haven't had this happen to you yet) and expect you to intervene....you get where I'm going. Do it because it's polite, check, because it's nice and you like feeling nice, double check. Do it to try and figure out if they are wearing a g string. oo manly...Doing it because you are succumbing to expectations.....hmmm.
[QUOTE]

Vaynor

2008-02-05, 01:08 AM

I have nothing against feminists. However, I do dislike the feminist movement, because it's very inconviniant for an American male teenager. As presented by the media, we are sex-crazy, childish, stupid, and irresponsible, while the calm, gentle, mature older sister/cousin/friend/girlfriend is often shown as the sypathetic protagonist.

Allow me some examples. Life with Derek isn't as bad as some other shows, but it still has mistakes. I sypathize with the Derek character, but he is presented as annoying and childish and petty and irresponsible, while his sister Casey is so put upon by having to deal with him.

So many shows on TV are like that, it drives me insane. I try to be chivalrous, opening doors and the like, but the feminists (which are an increasing population around where I live) will get mad because they think they're getting special treatment, but you can't ever really treat a girl as you'd treat a guy, without breaking social taboos.

My best friend and I screw around all the time. We fight, wrestle, trash talk, like best friends do. But if he was a girl, I would be expected to not hit, not fight, ect.

So I'd say I support feminism as a concept, but when put into practice, it's too hard to deal with it, as well as social norms.

So unbelievably true. Yes, when a girl is walking behind me and I open a door, I hold it open. Here comes the shocker! when a guy's behind me I do the same thing. I view it as common courtesy, not special treatment. I realize they could easily open the door themselves, but I figure taking a few seconds out of my life makes theirs easier. I just... don't get it.

Cuddly

2008-02-05, 01:27 AM

Shadow

2008-02-05, 01:32 AM

Being a man is about being responsible, and being confident in that responsibility.I vote that anyone named Cuddly is no longer allowed to post in the Men itp Thread! :smallbiggrin:

Baerdog7

2008-02-05, 01:34 AM

I'm sure the mods could make an exception just this once and let him change his name to something more manly. How about Spike? Crusher? Bruno?

Jagg

2008-02-05, 01:39 AM

I vote that anyone named Cuddly is no longer allowed to post in the Men itp Thread! :smallbiggrin:

Pfft don't you know it's an abbreviation for

cuddly tattooed bearded beer swilling rough talking hard living cowboy???

Baerdog7

2008-02-05, 01:42 AM

Hmmm, it could be one of those ironic nicknames. Like when a really huge guy is called Slim, or when a bald one is called Curly.

Shadow

2008-02-05, 01:43 AM

Nice try dude.
His name is Cuddly.
That is all.

averagejoe

2008-02-05, 01:54 AM

Nice try dude.
His name is Cuddly.
That is all.

Hey, real men are cuddly with the womenfolks and the bunnies, but decidedly un-cuddly with the guys who are always starting trouble in bars, just like in the movies, and the bears. Being a man is not a simple thing.

Rockphed

2008-02-05, 02:13 AM

Sure it is! Real Men eat Powdered Sugar Donuts(which I have been lacking of late due to the unwillingness of my family to procure them from Krispy Kreme)! Real men can vault stairs like they aren't there and think the ideal way to solve problems is "I hit it with my hammer!" If that fails, they are flummoxed until they can come up with a plan involving spatualas and the year old split-pea soup.

Shadow

2008-02-05, 02:15 AM

Zip ties and duct tape hold the world together my friend.
The whole world.

Serpentine

2008-02-05, 08:44 AM

A couple of people have expressed confusion over what it is to be "manly", and some dismay at the confusion between "manliness" and "bigotry". I mentioned a while ago that men wasted the opportunity offered by feminism, and this is why. Yes, it was about things like "women should be allowed to run businesses!" and "women deserve as much education as men!" If the men of the time had their wits about them, though, they would have taken it their way: "Why should I have to be tough and stoic and macho? What if I don't like boxing? So what if I don't like wearing pants all the time? Why do I have to be the only one supporting my family? Why shouldn't I be able to do flower arranging if I want to? Why should I be ashamed of crying in soppy movies?" The feminist movement, used ideally, should have gone completely both ways, eliminating the need for machismo and the like. I really do sympathise with modern men, having to deal with machismo on one side and over-enthusiastic feminism on the other, finding yourself doing the wrong thing either way... I think, though, with things like househusbands becoming more prevalent that it is getting there. Slowly.

SDF: Yes, it is illegal. But, all things being equal between both applicants, and neither really going to know the reason why they won't be chosen (and the employee himself may even be doing it subconciously), who's going to know? And with that particular field of law being in the state it is right now, rights of appeal are severely limited...

Paradox: :smallbiggrin:
Jagg: :smallyuk:

As a side note, Goff (when oh when will he start posting in threads like this so I don't keep speaking for him? :smallsigh:) has said a couple of times that usually he prefers to hang out with girls, because he dislikes the rampant machismo and antagonism common among a lot of guys... Thoughts?

Charity

2008-02-05, 08:52 AM

I prefer hanging out with girls also, for many of the same reasons ... and they smell better.

Ranna

2008-02-05, 09:11 AM

I wouldn't mind being a lil house wife. Though looking at the arguments about jobs, I just did the most depressing study into sexism in science....deffo not going to be a scientist anymore.

Sweeden is quite a nice country, equallity driven and all that, and yet in science for a woman to be hired over a guy she had to have 20 more published papers than a guy and theres still a 16% pay gap as an average between men and women over europe

See the Amsterdam Treaty for more useless figures

Depresso!

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-05, 10:02 AM

Kiegel's for men. Yay or nay?

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-05, 10:54 AM

Eldritch Knight: I was casually awaiting a Red Green reference to pop up.

On the hanging out with girls subject, I probably hang out with an equal number of women and men. The machismo of a lot of men cannot handle me, an effeminte, gothic fop, rather than the other way around; I have no quarrel with the whole of Macho, Macho Men, and even have fun around them. I just make them uncomfortable. So, I hang out with primarily other effeminate, foppish, kinda silly dudes and then ladies, who aren't nearly so uncomfortable.

Blayze

2008-02-05, 11:03 AM

So what if I don't like wearing pants all the time?

Who says we all wear pants? Some of us go commando. :smallbiggrin:

(Not while I wear jeans, though. Only ever while I'm in mah "slobbing gear". Zips are dangerous)

Depresso

You should market that as a brand of coffee. "Guaranteed to make you feel better about the bad things in life! After all, none of them could make you feel as bad as our coffee does!"

Telonius

2008-02-05, 11:10 AM

Or it could just be a french press. "Make your espresso with Depresso!"

Serpentine

2008-02-05, 11:12 AM

Hey Vessy, you got any pics up? Cuz you totally sound like my sorta guy :smallamused:

Proven_Paradox

2008-02-05, 01:20 PM

Hey Vessy, you got any pics up? Cuz you totally sound like my sorta guy :smallamused:

And now, Serpentine would probably like to retract her request for her boyfriend to read and post in this thread!

Regarding hanging out with girls... There was a time in high school where I hung out in a group made up of predominantly female members. We were the official nerd group, basically, and there were more women there. The men involved weren't particularly manly either. I kind of stuck out in the group as the only manly man. Much fun was had at my expense.

Now? My DnD group is a complete sausage fest, and considering the nature of the group I'd feel sorry for any lady who got involved in it. I'm a computer science major, and that area is still predominantly male (though that is very, very rapidly changing; there is one girl in the CS major out of 14 in my year, and 3 or 4 in a smaller group a year below me, and even MORE in this year's Freshman class), so I do most of my work around other men. I don't really hang out with anyone in person during my spare time, either. So, overall it seems most of the people I work with in some way are men.

And just because it still amuses me, I will say it again.

Sausage Fest.

Telonius

2008-02-05, 01:29 PM

I didn't hang out with girls in high school. None. Not a single one.

Yay for all-guys Catholic schools. :smallfrown:

Made up for it in college, though. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, to any guy in need of advice: no need to get scared of them. Don't overthink it. If you stop to think about it, you're going down in flames. It's like trying to be aware of all your motions as you're throwing a basketball, or riding a bike. Just go ahead and be natural about it. Otherwise you're ending up with an airball, or getting a face full of pavement.

Jagg

2008-02-05, 06:09 PM

Paradox: :smallbiggrin:
Jagg: :smallyuk:

As a side note, Goff (when oh when will he start posting in threads like this so I don't keep speaking for him? :smallsigh:) has said a couple of times that usually he prefers to hang out with girls, because he dislikes the rampant machismo and antagonism common among a lot of guys... Thoughts?

Rampant machismo eh? I suppose it depends upon who he hangs out with. A lot of young guys think they have something to prove (which is an attitude that leads to rampant and overt machismo posturing). A bit of maturity and those guys get treated like the poseurs they are. I'm in an industry which tends to have a fair bit of rampant machismo. At one the places I worked it was terrible, every monday morning there would be loud conversations along the lines of how much beer they drank, how many girls they took home, how many exotic dancers they ogled etc etc. Some guys need to get those wild urges of of their systems before they settle down I suppose. I changed companies and it was a breath of fresh air (because most of the guys are married with kids) and there was none of the immature posturing.

As for hanging out with girls...yeah I did that too as a younger man...but then I was a sneaky SOB who was doing to it to.....you get the idea.

JAGG

Shraik

2008-02-05, 06:31 PM

Yay for all-guys Catholic schools. :smallfrown:

Oh my god that must hurt. I go to a co-ed Catholic school and you really missed out on the girls.

Jagg

2008-02-05, 06:42 PM

Shraik

You had to mention catholic school girls didn't you....:smallbiggrin:

KindaChang

2008-02-05, 06:57 PM

Zip ties and duct tape hold the world together my friend.
The whole world.

There's only two tools that any man needs: Duct tape and WD-40. If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40. :smallwink:

Jagg: on why many boys do the posturing thing you described: it's no different from any other dominance ritual for any other social animal. By comparing how they did at their common pursuits they begin to sort out who is the top male, and in theory help the females of the species sort out who is best for breeding. However, as I previously pointed out our complex culture undermines this biological urge and creates rather weird and arbitrary methods of measuring.

In my dorm room today there was some ribbing back and forth where one guy proclaimed to be the best at Halo and consequently the best at video games. Another undermined him by pointing out just how badly he had been beaten at NHL '08, and he came back with how often he beat the other at Mario Kart 64.

In a perfectly logical world, this kind of thing doesn't happen, because when you try to take things out of context it makes no sense. Skill at video games proves nothing about how good of a father you would make. However, it's a throw back to our roots as a species when being a good father involved being the best and strongest male, because you would produce the best and strongest children for the female to raise and thus the female's genetic history is passed on.

Also, I want to point out that this posturing is NOT inherently bad, or bad when it happens. When it gets taken to an extreme and someone gets hurt beyond feeling bad that you didn't do as well for a few hours (there's a big difference between being a little bummed and being emotionally traumatized that our society has forgotten) then there's a problem, because dominance rituals very specifically almost never go to any kind of violence.

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-05, 07:10 PM

Serpentine: When my friend sends me prints of the picture where I'm smoking a Virginia Slim in a leopard-print coat (which may or may not have actually been a bathrobe before I purchased it), on some long, needlessly artistic highway, I'll post it. I think I have rugged five o'clock shadow, since it was taken after the official VeisuBinge '07, so it can still fit in the Man thread.

ZeroNumerous

2008-02-05, 07:55 PM

As a side note, Goff (when oh when will he start posting in threads like this so I don't keep speaking for him? :smallsigh:) has said a couple of times that usually he prefers to hang out with girls, because he dislikes the rampant machismo and antagonism common among a lot of guys... Thoughts?

I work around/with alot of girls(note, I did not say women!) who do the exact same things as guys half their age. Constantly ribbing one another with jokes and sarcasm. But I'd rather be with them than guys my age. Better view. :smalltongue:

I kid, I kid. But really, I prefered hanging out with girls in high school and college. It's easier to talk to a girl than a guy when you don't watch any sports what-so-ever.

Shraik

2008-02-05, 08:11 PM

Shraik

You had to mention catholic school girls didn't you....:smallbiggrin:

I see no reason why I shouldn't, whats not to like?

Jagg

2008-02-05, 08:11 PM

Jagg: on why many boys do the posturing thing you described: it's no different from any other dominance ritual for any other social animal. By comparing how they did at their common pursuits they begin to sort out who is the top male, and in theory help the females of the species sort out who is best for breeding. However, as I previously pointed out our complex culture undermines this biological urge and creates rather weird and arbitrary methods of measuring.

I agree totally that it's dominance rituals that are responsible for a lot of this posturing. And as I said a lot of young guys just need to get it out of their systems.

*snippies*

Also, I want to point out that this posturing is NOT inherently bad, or bad when it happens. When it gets taken to an extreme and someone gets hurt beyond feeling bad that you didn't do as well for a few hours (there's a big difference between being a little bummed and being emotionally traumatized that our society has forgotten) then there's a problem, because dominance rituals very specifically almost never go to any kind of violence.

No it's not inherently bad, but it's potential to be taken too far by inexperience and a rush of hormones is pretty marked. I'll give you an example of what I'm rambling on about and you can comment.

Alcohol. Now I'm not a teetotaller and when I was a young man I was definately not a teatotaller. Alcohol, machismo and dominance rituals do not a good mix make. Ever hear the old chestnut "You can't trust a man who doesn't drink."? There is enormous peer pressure on guys to drink. Mates you haven't seen for while "Hey lets catch up for a beer" Mate's have some luck at the pokies "hey lets celebrate with a beer", Girlfriend leaves a mate "Hey lets commiserate with a beer". And if you don't want to drink you are viewed askance as if to say "What's wrong with you?"

Ever had the situation where you'd been drinking with the boys, and have to get up early for something and go. "Nope I 've had enough"? The normal response to that is something along the lines of..."One more, c'mon don't be a wuss". If the machismo is in force....you can't say no. And here is where your maturity comes to te fore because you can brush off your mates, laugh and say, "Boys you're going to regret that in the morning. Catch you next time." (I didn't do this enough when I was a lad and spent far too much time puking into gutters because I couldn't say no).

JAGG

Illiterate Scribe

2008-02-05, 08:38 PM

Ever had the situation where you'd been drinking with the boys, and have to get up early for something and go. "Nope I 've had enough"? The normal response to that is something along the lines of..."One more, c'mon don't be a wuss". If the machismo is in force....you can't say no. And here is where your maturity comes to te fore because you can brush off your mates, laugh and say, "Boys you're going to regret that in the morning. Catch you next time." (I didn't do this enough when I was a lad and spent far too much time puking into gutters because I couldn't say no).

JAGG

That's where pious moralisation comes in. Works every time for avoiding the drink. :smallcool:

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-05, 08:40 PM

I hear that. My first reservist training, when we reached the "Happy Hour" section(at the end, obviously), I couldn't really refuse to drink since the one pressuring me was a superior officer. :P I wound up drinking like 5 cans of beer, including one made from combining leftover cans(and I think gave me the flu). :smallyuk: The last two times, partly because that officer wasn't around, and partly because I felt sick, I outright refused to drink. I pretty much never drink at wedding dinners(again, only time I did was under pressure from a cousin of my mother's, who also has a habit of pressuring HER to drink.). I bought a bottle of Martel VSOP because of the model used in the ad campaign(I wanted to win that date with her:smallbiggrin:) and then made that bottle last a whole year, and only because I used it a few times to help disinfect cuts.

KindaChang

2008-02-05, 09:07 PM

The fascination with getting drunk is hardly a male specific problem though. Trust me, I go to an American university. :smalleek: Alcohol has been a part of human culture for a long, long time now and drinking it is a social activity that spans cultures and classes within cultures. (however, there are some that forbid it) The true problem is that when people are young, they seem to think that the only use to drinking anything alcoholic is to get drunk. I, personally disagree, and tend to drink beer because I enjoy the wide variety of tastes and types available. Rarely do I drink more than one beer in an evening.

I think it comes down to the lack of maturity more than anything else for pressuring people to drink more than they want to.

PhallicWarrior

2008-02-05, 10:42 PM

I work around/with alot of girls(note, I did not say women!) who do the exact same things as guys half their age. Constantly ribbing one another with jokes and sarcasm. But I'd rather be with them than guys my age. Better view. :smalltongue:

I kid, I kid. But really, I prefered hanging out with girls in high school and college. It's easier to talk to a girl than a guy when you don't watch any sports what-so-ever.

Zero has described my life better than I ever could. I take ballet classes and have only met one other guy who dances. On the plus side, I know more women than a lot of homeschooled guys my age. :smallbiggrin: I have quite a few friends, despite what cable TV might say about the homeschooling lifestyle, and some of my friends are not other homeschoolers. They are also the only ones who make jokes about me being gay (which I am not) and also the only ones who express suprise at me dancing, seeing it as an effeminate-if not outright feminine- pastime. So I'm thinking, does the idea of what defines masculinity and femininity come from the group, or from the person, and at what point does the former override the latter? In other words, how many guys does it take to start a revolution?

Rockphed

2008-02-05, 11:12 PM

Zero has described my life better than I ever could. I take ballet classes and have only met one other guy who dances. On the plus side, I know more women than a lot of homeschooled guys my age. :smallbiggrin: I have quite a few friends, despite what cable TV might say about the homeschooling lifestyle, and some of my friends are not other homeschoolers. They are also the only ones who make jokes about me being gay (which I am not) and also the only ones who express suprise at me dancing, seeing it as an effeminate-if not outright feminine- pastime. So I'm thinking, does the idea of what defines masculinity and femininity come from the group, or from the person, and at what point does the former override the latter? In other words, how many guys does it take to start a revolution?

My view on Male Balletists:

You are probably the only guy in a room full of women. What is not masculine about that?

On a similar note, How many people have actually met a Male Cheerleader? I had an English class with one once, and he was ripped. The Cheersquad had rules against dating other cheerleaders, but there still managed to be Marriages between them from time to time.

Jagg

2008-02-05, 11:20 PM

So I'm thinking, does the idea of what defines masculinity and femininity come from the group, or from the person, and at what point does the former override the latter? In other words, how many guys does it take to start a revolution?

Well with a name like that.....Welcome to the Man thread!! :smallbiggrin:

Your question deals with what I would consider to be shades of grey. I prefer to think of masculinity as an internalized process, rather than an externally imposed mold that we men have to be crammed into. I think it's a mark of manhood to be able to say "Well I don't care if you think me joining the quilting club is sissy, I find it relaxing and it stimulates my creative side so get stuffed". I think it's something that we learn as we get older to not sweat the small stuff that used to make us headstrong and impulsive and do stupid things to try and express a certain image. But there is no question that there is perception that society imposes about masculinity, just as there is about femininity. That nebulous thing called society says that women should look and act a certain way to be considered "feminine". Eg looking like Barbie is probably considered more feminine than Tankgirl. A football player is probably considered to be more "masculine" than a ballet dancer, but isn't this just perpetuating a stereotype? (I read somewhere that dancers are considerably fitter than all but the most elite of athletes). If being masculine is something that men aspire to be (because of all those biological urges and wanting to attract the objects of our desire) doesn't that just perpetuate certain silly stereotypes, especially as the female of the species determines what is masculine and what is not, and can have wildly different views about what is attractive and what is not. I suppose it depends on what social meme's are operating at the time. After all women used to find Woody Allen attractive, whilst I consider him to be a weedy looking cerebral neurotic.

JAGG

Swordlol

2008-02-05, 11:29 PM

Jagg

2008-02-06, 12:13 AM

I'm sorry for ruining the whole atmosphere, or whatever....

Okay I got no clue why I'm asking this.
I get a drive from a female friend of mine, right? I get in, who sister is in the passanger seat, so I get in the back right. She has her ipod hooked up to the car, so the car is playing the song on her Ipod. She is still pulled over, and the ipod is in a middle of a song, she takes her Ipod and in the middle of the song, she scrolls and goes looking for...

Supertramp-Take a Look at my Girlfriend.

Ackward as hell. Her sister asks why she is playing this song in the car, and (my friend the female driver) says shut up thats why. I'm not entirely sure if she knows I have a girlfriend.

I'm not sure how to take this, and we're kinda partners on this upcoming Debate (class, not club) quarter 3 final and I definetly don't want us working together seem ackward.

Maybe I'm taking this too seriously, but if you were there, she went straight for the song once I buckled in, she sang to it, she turned up the volume, and ignored her sister.

I'm lost.

Wait, let me make sure I have this right. You have a girlfriend, which your "friend" may or may not know and you think she was....making a subtle overture to you through her musical selection? Oo manly. Welcome to the thread. :smallbiggrin:

Ok so I'm going to assume that you come to the conclusion that she was cracking on to you from more than just selecting a song on her iPod. If she's interested in you there will of course be some other signs. The question is whether this is wanted or unwanted attention :smalltongue: Sounds like unwanted to me. So here are a few suggestions.

1) Tell your girlfriend that you're not sure and somewhat confused but you think that :haley: tried to crack onto you the other day. This scores points with your girlfriend, coz you're not keeping it a secret like you would if you'd been a naughty boy and explored the subtle offer. Girlfriend may volunteer to take the problem out of your hands and have a quiet chat to :haley:. Girls tend to handle these things better, of course you run the risk of a chickfight if your girlfriend is the jealous type...make sure you get it on film and have the jelly wrestling ring handy if she is.

2) Invite your girlfriend somewhere that you know that :haley: will be. Eg get the girlfriend to pick you up from practice and give her a big smooch as she arrives. :haley: should get the message that you are out of bounds.

3) Exchange promise rings with your girlfriend and proudly show it off. "Hey :haley: did you see my promise ring from my girlfriend. Man she has good taste, it was much nicer than the one I gave her.

I've had a couple of girls make subtle overtures, I normally just bring not-so-subtle attention to my wedding ring and they back off. It's great - like I'm branded or something.

JAGG

Serpentine

2008-02-06, 12:31 AM

My view on Male Balletists:

You are probably the only guy in a room full of women. What is not masculine about that?Heheh... This reminds me of a couple of comments I read under a... cartoon of... extreme unsuitability for children I read once. Paraphrased, due to stupidity of my brain.
Idiot: OMG that grl has a penis that is so gay ur all gay 4 watching that
Response: A girl with a penis having sex with lots of women is gay? Right...

On ballet, I saw Billy Elliot the other day, and it occured to me... that stuff they're doing in the tutus, that's not prancing about doing girly dancing or whatever. That's serious exercise, toning of the body and strengthening of the muscles, etc. That looks like damn hard work, for men or women.

Swordlol, I don't know the song and I don't do that sort of flirting, so I have no idea, really.

KindaChang

2008-02-06, 02:29 AM

I think it goes back to gender roles. Dancing, and ballet in particular emphasizes grace, a trait considered to be traditionally female, and within the the ballet itself the male role of the dance almost always emphasizes his strength.

Figure skating versus ice hockey is another example of this.

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-06, 03:38 AM

I dunno. I never could get into the taste of most alcohol. The burn, the bitterness, it all just disgusts my supertaster's tongue. :smallfrown:

sophosbarbaros

2008-02-06, 05:44 AM

Along the lines of what Jagg has stated before, being a man is about the external manifestations of internal qualities combined with gender

I consider myself a Man because I strive to speak the truth, remain faithful (to my wife AND friends) provide for myself and my family, and protect my family from harmful situations and influences.

Of course a woman with all of those qualities would be a Woman, not a Man.

I guess I am circuitously saying that the Qualities of Humanity are the qualites that should be embraced today by young men searching for an understanding or a foundation for their Manhood. A good man is a good human, as a good woman is also a human who embraces the values and qualities that are prized by humanity.

oh, and along a different thread, It is relatively easy to mention that you are taken/married/engaged/dating someone or whatever else in a conversation. Especially when converstations take place because of class projects and things. "Chlorophyll? yeah my girlfriend always has trouble spelling that too."
so if you think that some is subtly trying to move into position to ask you out, step up and make mention before they not so subtly do something and then have to go through a rejection (reguardless of how well you are able to let them down)

rubakhin

2008-02-06, 06:56 AM

Re: ballet

The interesting thing about men and ballet is that the ballet is expressed through the beauty of the body. So when a man is dancing the ballet, we're in a position where we're considering his body as an object of beauty - and the culture is so saturated with images and ideas of female beauty, and hardly anything at all with male beauty, that if a man is beautiful (and by extension, doing something beautiful or appreciating something beautiful) it feminizes him. You often hear talk about actors like Brad Pitt supposedly looking feminine, when they don't in the least bit, it's just that they're considered to be attractive, which is a deeply female trait in this society. At best, a homoerotic one. The stigma of homosexuality in this culture and the way it subconsciously impacts this sort of thinking is really rather frightening. I read a study once that posited that the reason why American men are so hung up on breasts is because if you're admiring legs or whatever, well, they could be anyone's, including a man's, but breasts are inherently feminine.

(Of course, I'm gay and I love the ballet, so.)

I'm da Rogue!

2008-02-06, 07:46 AM

*snip*
...and the culture is so saturated with images and ideas of female beauty, and hardly anything at all with male beauty..
*snip*

Well, it depends on what period and culture we're talking about.
http://trekos.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/hermes_statue.jpg

There aren't any ancient greek statues of naked females. Only naked men, or women in clothes.

And a man can surely look beautiful, yet masculine.

Although I prefer the female body.

Sorry if I was out of subject.

Am I even allowed to post in here?:smallconfused:

<.<
>.>

*flees*

Blayze

2008-02-06, 08:59 AM

I dunno. I never could get into the taste of most alcohol. The burn, the bitterness, it all just disgusts my supertaster's tongue.

I hate the taste too, especially the aftertaste. Most alcohol tastes crap to me, and yet I'm told that I'll "get used to it." I believe they mean that my tastebuds will be melted away if I keep on drinking, and it certainly tastes like they could.

"Hmm, that wasn't so- Ugh, nasty!"

That's one third of the reason why I don't go out on the town (The other two thirds? I hate crowds and I don't understand the logic behind paying for a hangover).

I read a study once

Would this be the same sort of study that claims that male masturbation is homosexual because it's all about the penis? :P

Prophaniti

2008-02-06, 11:07 AM

My view on Male Balletists:

You are probably the only guy in a room full of women. What is not masculine about that?

I actually have a cousin who joined the color guard back in his high school marching band (the people who toss flags and sabers and such) specifically for the purpose of meeting and hanging out with girls.

I enjoy dancing, though mostly ballroom and swing, and don't consider it particularly feminine. Ballet takes a great ammount of coordination and athleticism. I know I couldn't do it.

I'm afraid I won't be any help, Swordlol. The number of times a girl has flirted with me (even counting my wife while we were dating) I can count on both hands. Either that or I'm really dense and don't know flirting when I see it, which is also no help to you, sorry.:smalltongue:

Ok, time to jump topics again! Alcholol:
I've only tasted one kind personally, rum, and I hated it. Never saw any reason to drink. I like to be in conscious control of my actions. Hell, I don't even like to take painkillers stronger than tylenol because I can't think straight.

Trog

2008-02-06, 11:26 AM

My view on Male Balletists:

You are probably the only guy in a room full of women. What is not masculine about that?
The. Costumes.

Swordlol

2008-02-06, 04:52 PM

Wait, let me make sure I have this right. You have a girlfriend, which your "friend" may or may not know and you think she was....making a subtle overture to you through her musical selection? Oo manly. Welcome to the thread. :smallbiggrin:

Ok so I'm going to assume that you come to the conclusion that she was cracking on to you from more than just selecting a song on her iPod. If she's interested in you there will of course be some other signs. The question is whether this is wanted or unwanted attention :smalltongue: Sounds like unwanted to me. So here are a few suggestions.

1) Tell your girlfriend that you're not sure and somewhat confused but you think that :haley: tried to crack onto you the other day. This scores points with your girlfriend, coz you're not keeping it a secret like you would if you'd been a naughty boy and explored the subtle offer. Girlfriend may volunteer to take the problem out of your hands and have a quiet chat to :haley:. Girls tend to handle these things better, of course you run the risk of a chickfight if your girlfriend is the jealous type...make sure you get it on film and have the jelly wrestling ring handy if she is.

2) Invite your girlfriend somewhere that you know that :haley: will be. Eg get the girlfriend to pick you up from practice and give her a big smooch as she arrives. :haley: should get the message that you are out of bounds.

3) Exchange promise rings with your girlfriend and proudly show it off. "Hey :haley: did you see my promise ring from my girlfriend. Man she has good taste, it was much nicer than the one I gave her.

I've had a couple of girls make subtle overtures, I normally just bring not-so-subtle attention to my wedding ring and they back off. It's great - like I'm branded or something.

JAGG

Many thanks.
I'm a tad paranoid or too observantant... if thats word.... or cohorent..ial...

Thanks again.

Rockphed

2008-02-06, 04:55 PM

Male Balletists generally don't wear Tutus. They don't even go up on the points of their toes. In many ways, they are just mobile scenery that can throw ballerinas around.

My sister, who was taking a ballet class to fulfill her University's PE requirement, passed on to me that Ballerinas need to start at 6 to have their bodies in shape to be able to become professionals. Men can start at 20 or later if they are reasonably in shape and are good at learning and memorizing moves.

And I totally considered joining Color Guard, but I really didn't like any of the girls in it, so I decided against it.

Jagg

2008-02-06, 05:15 PM

The. Costumes.

You mean the skin tight...tights that make your...um...package look huge and tells girls your religion?

Riiiiiight
JAGG

I took my wife to "Nutcracker" at Christmas and there was one male dancer who was always wearing a coat with his costume... when he lifted one of the girls it was obvious why his coat was cut a little longer than the other male dancers. (O.O)

ZeroNumerous

2008-02-06, 05:26 PM

I've only tasted one kind personally, rum, and I hated it. Never saw any reason to drink. I like to be in conscious control of my actions. Hell, I don't even like to take painkillers stronger than tylenol because I can't think straight.

I'm a recovering alcoholic. Most of the problem stims from issues beyond your control which push you to repress the issue using alcohol as a medium.

Zero has described my life better than I ever could.

I work in a far more effeminate profession than just a ballet dancer. :smalltongue:

Midnight Son

2008-02-06, 08:44 PM

You mean the skin tight...tights that make your...um...package look huge and tells girls your religion?

Riiiiiight
JAGG

I took my wife to "Nutcracker" at Christmas and there was one male dancer who was always wearing a coat with his costume... when he lifted one of the girls it was obvious why his coat was cut a little longer than the other male dancers. (O.O)
You do realize they wear codpieces, right?

Jagg

2008-02-06, 09:27 PM

You do realize they wear codpieces, right?

Sure do - actually they are "athletic supports" but....well actually I think they didn't make codpieces in his size.... and frankly I wasn't at the opera to stare at another guys crotch.:smallwink:

Hell Puppi

2008-02-06, 10:20 PM

Thanks to that post, now all I can see is David Bowie in Labyrinth. There was a conversation that went something like this:

Garrick: "David, are you staring at David Bowie's crotch?"

David: "I can't help it! It's like a grapefruit!"

Um, yes. But the argument of male beauty is kind of strange. As a culture (at least from what I've seen in america) we do tend to think in 'beauty' in female terms. I was watching America's Next Top Model (I was bored, okay?) and the discussion went something like: "The male model is just another accessory to the female model, he shouldn't be outshining you."
It was meant to be a critique of the female model, but it struck me as kind of odd. Is it because we're so driven by the 'sex sells' that men aren't really found to be beautiful? Is it homophobia? Culture? Can a man keep up his appearance without being considered vain (or alternatively, homosexual)?
Hm, I'm really not sure. I do like the discussion though, it's given me something else to think about.

Jack Squat

2008-02-06, 10:51 PM

Supertramp-Take a Look at my Girlfriend.

it's actually Breakfast in America.

I will also say that Jagg's spot on.

and Hellpuppi: Men can very well try to keep up their appearances with being viewed as normal. Normally this means always hitting the gym; but I think as long as men aren't obsessed about their clothes and hair, they aren't normally looked down upon (at least not among people I know).

Of course, in my observation, people don't really like women that are obsessed with their clothes or hair either...

Hell Puppi

2008-02-06, 11:01 PM

Of course, I was just trying to pinpoint the whole thing with masculine beauty and see if it perhaps started with the individual (men that attempt to keep up appearances outside of being in shape) or if it's just a reflection of the fashion industry or if it's something else.

Nah, women or men obsessed with their appearances aren't that interesting. Think about dating a model, it would get pretty boring pretty quickly, I would think, but that's me.

Cuddly

2008-02-06, 11:24 PM

Jack Squat

2008-02-06, 11:27 PM

I used to be a child model, and dating me isn't boring. It's actually too exciting. You wouldn't be able to handle me. Sorry babe.

I don't know why, I've never even seen the movie; but I immediately thought of this guy:

http://www.channel4.com/film/media/film/4x/D/dickie_roberts_former_xl_01.jpg

VeisuItaTyhjyys

2008-02-06, 11:38 PM

Some of us happen to enjoy drinking not as a posturing ritual, but because we do not like the world when we are sober. We're called "poets."

Eldritch Knight

2008-02-07, 12:17 AM

Being an engaged man, I can say that there are several things I've learned over the past two years regarding relationships:

"Marriage is a duel to the death which no man of honour should decline"
"Love means loving the unlovable - or it is no virtue at all."
"Women are the only realists; their whole object in life is to pit their realism against the extravagant, excessive, and occasionally drunken idealism of men."

That is all...

ZeroNumerous

2008-02-07, 12:34 AM

Can a man keep up his appearance without being considered vain (or alternatively, homosexual)?

I get this alot. I mean, alot more than I really should. I work as a hair stylist, and for some reason every woman who comes into the shop assumes I'm gay because I try to keep myself looking good. The first question I usually hear is "So who're you dating? Is he hunky?" It's followed by me quietly informing the customer that I'm not gay.

A funny story happened to me at work today. And the following is, word for word, the strangest conversation I've had with a customer(female, approximately 40~, wearing the most gawd awful dress/pants thing you've ever seen)

Me: Hi! I'm sorry, Stacy can't make it in today and I'm taking over her appointments. I have you down for~
(The customer interrupts me at this point)
Customer: Aren't you just gorgeous! I wish my son had your sense, but then I do want grandkids one day.
(Insert stunned silence)
Me: Uh.. Yes. This is a uniform, so I had no say in how it was thrown together. Now, Stacy wrote down that you want a col~
(Again, she interrupts me)
Customer: Uniform? It doesn't look anything like a uniform! Boy, all gay men must have great style to make something like that look good.

I destroyed her hair. :smallamused:

Nah, women or men obsessed with their appearances aren't that interesting. Think about dating a model, it would get pretty boring pretty quickly, I would think, but that's me.

I can tell you from experience that isn't just models who are boring. The ugly ones are the worst. :smalltongue:

I used to be a child model, and dating me isn't boring. It's actually too exciting. You wouldn't be able to handle me. Sorry babe.

And this is why they're the worst :smalltongue:

I kid, I kid.

Some of us happen to enjoy drinking not as a posturing ritual, but because we do not like the world when we are sober. We're called "poets."

I'm not a poet, but I used alcohol as an escape. You really shouldn't drink though. I can tell you that it does horrible things to your liver.

"Marriage is a duel to the death which no man of honour should decline"

I'd like to hear why you believe this, please.

CharlieSmiles

2008-02-07, 02:15 AM

The Nutcracker is the manliest of all of Tchaikovsky's ballets.
The Dance of the Sugarplum Fairies makes the UFC look like eating quiche with a tiny fork by comparison.

KindaChang

2008-02-07, 02:35 AM

Telonius

2008-02-07, 09:22 AM

The problem is that people are having the wrong kind of cake. I recommend Red Velvet cake. Two years in and no such effect for my wife and me. :smallwink:

Blayze

2008-02-07, 09:37 AM

I recommend Red Velvet cake.

I'll keep that in mind. :P

Kaelaroth

2008-02-07, 11:51 AM

Sure do - actually they are "athletic supports" but....well actually I think they didn't make codpieces in his size.... and frankly I wasn't at the opera to stare at another guys crotch.:smallwink:

Puh, I was! :smallsmile:

*is aware of the uncomfortableness emanating from all sides of him*

*backs slowly away*

Lyesmith

2008-02-07, 12:43 PM

...What is it with guys and staring at stuff?
*Takes a peek at Labyrinth*
*Gets drawn in*
...It *IS* Like a grapefruit!

Supagoof

2008-02-07, 12:46 PM

Kael, you rock!

Pwenet

2008-02-07, 06:00 PM

The problem is that people are having the wrong kind of cake. I recommend Red Velvet cake. Two years in and no such effect for my wife and me. :smallwink:

*Scribbles notes down in the "When I get remarried" notebook*

"Red.... velvet.... cake! THAT'S what I did wrong!:smallyuk:"

And now, a question for the masses.

*Observes the masses vanishing into ether.*

As a man getting who is starting to get an itch to sneak back into the dating scene once certain legal papers are finalized (or even before then :smallwink:), when/if should a lady get 'notification' that I happen to be, slightly used. What is the manly response!?!

Blayze

2008-02-07, 06:31 PM

What is the manly response!?!

Ideally, the manly response would be to grunt, scratch yourself and pull out a Dating CV, pointing to the bit marked "References".

Jagg

2008-02-07, 07:15 PM

And now, a question for the masses.

*Observes the masses vanishing into ether.*

As a man getting who is starting to get an itch to sneak back into the dating scene once certain legal papers are finalized (or even before then ), when/if should a lady get 'notification' that I happen to be, slightly used. What is the manly response!?!

"Slightly used?" Makes you sound like you are a second hand car with the distressing smell coming from the back seat that you can't identify. Never having been divorced myself I can only answer this question as an observer of many divorces. My tips.

1) No one wants to be the rebound. So when you do start dating again, when you tell them you are recently divorced, also say that it was a completely loveless marriage that was dead in all but name for years. Then not mention it again. (No one likes to hear about the ex). Sneaky dates may even attempt to test you on this issue (because they want to make sure that whilst you may be "slightly used", you are still under warranty and don't need to be taken back to the shop because you are broken). Merely responding "It's in the past and I'd prefer to talk about you". apparently does wonders. Many guys will spend the night bitching and moaning about their ex, which is the signal for most women to bug out as fast as possible.

2) As for timing, do you really think that being divorced is something that you need to hide? Is it somehow shameful that you have exited the relationship? I bet that when you finally get those papers signed, you'll be all boo-ya! what a relief, so why feel the need to hide it from a potential new partner? Do it early on, and ignore it from there. It's not like it's a defining characteristic after all. "Hi My names is Pwenet, divorcee extrodinaire."

That's all I got.

JAGG

Telonius

2008-02-08, 09:02 AM

First, make sure you know why you want to get back into the dating scene. "Trouser Titan's Orders" is a perfectly acceptable answer, as long as you know that's the real answer and don't mislead yourself or others about it. Seriously, though, step back and think about it for awhile. Why do you want to date again? When you come up with a satisfactory answer, you're ready to start looking.

As for when you should tell the lady in question - well, that depends on your reason, and on the lady in question. (Also on the presence of any kids - are there any?) Your divorce is something that's part of your past, but it doesn't define your past, present, or future. Just in general, if you're at the point where you're comfortable telling her about how your favorite book, your favorite football team, or your religion has influenced your outlook on life, you're probably good to talk about the divorce. If you're at the point where you're saying things like, "Hi!" it's probably too early. If you're saying things like, "I do," it's probably past time.

SweetLikeLemons

2008-02-08, 11:16 PM

If you want a woman's perspective on this, here's my two cents: Just be honest about it. It doesn't have to be the first thing you tell a woman, but I think it should come pretty soon after you start talking seriously. The longer you wait to tell about it, the more it seems like you have something to cover up. As for what to tell, I would say as much as she wants to know. Don't go off on a rant about your evil ex as soon as the word "divorce" comes up in conversation, but if she asks about it, a line like, "I'd prefer to talk about you" could come off badly. Having been married before isn't going to scare most women off, but I at least would want to know that the reason it didn't work out isn't because you are a wife-beater or a cheating scumbag (not that I think you are). And good luck! I hope you find someone who makes you really happy!

Rockphed

2008-02-08, 11:27 PM

I destroyed her hair. :smallamused:

And well you should. Evil people who judge others just on their appearances. Unless I missed something, now her hair matches her clothing.:smalltongue:

"Marriage is a duel to the death which no man of honour should decline"I'd like to hear why you believe this, please.

Because "Love is a Battlefield!":smallamused:

Furthermore, Dancing is a Battle.

Vuzzmop

2008-02-09, 12:34 AM

I know I don't have as anly a name as phallic warrior, but I'm joining the man thread as well. After all, I did find a facial hair today. Weird thing is, its 3 centimetres long, and its the only one:smalleek: .

Anyway, next week, my school has its big all school team haka competition, if you don't know what a haka is, basicly its a war dance/chant to scare your opponents into fighting poorly. Only it kinda looks a little pathetic when little white boys like me try to take part in a maori war dance. This ought to be good:smallamused:

KindaChang

2008-02-09, 01:38 AM

I laughed when the University of Hawaii American football team did a haka as part of their warmup against the University of Georgia, and then proceeded to get manhandled in the game.

Leave sport hakas to the All-Blacks, guys.

Solo

2008-02-09, 01:50 AM

Serpentine

2008-02-09, 03:44 AM

Ah, the haka. If anything belongs in a men's thread, it's that. What could be more manly than fully grown Maori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maori) men wearing very little clothing (http://www.hickerphoto.com/data/media/152/newzealand_CRW_9220.jpg) with their faces painted (http://design.leerjohnson.com/tattoomethods/polynesian.html) in pretty patterns stomping their feet, yelling a lot, sticking their tongues right out (http://www.hps.com/~tpg/singapore/graphics/nz-maori-haka1.jpg) and rolling their eyes (http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t304/T304604A.jpg) about in a menacing way? Oh, and then there's the whole (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/files/images/stories/nzwars/nzwars-002.jpg) war (http://whakaahua.maori.org.nz/weapons1.htm) thing (http://www.ngatoa.com/e107_images/newspost_images/maori_battalion_performing_a_haka_egypt_june_1941_ da01229f.jpg) associated with it.
It's so manly it makes you want to grow testicles.

Lyesmith

2008-02-09, 03:48 AM

Or giggle uncontrollably and include it in my stand-up routine about rugby.
Which i am not going to get out of alive, i fear. Curse you, innate desire of sarcasm!

KindaChang

2008-02-09, 05:28 AM

Okay, I screwed up. UofHawaii did not perform a haka before their bowl game this year, since the WAC began penalizing them for performing it (for reasons I imagine have something to do with a part of it being exactly the same as a profane gesture in western culture). They now perform a ha'a. Which is really the same thing, but from Hawaii instead of from the Maori.

Felixaar

2008-02-09, 07:09 AM

For the matter, hairs that are excessively long are common on facial hair and leg hair. Atleast they are for me. My advice is to cut em back (scissors'll do) since they become annoying otherwise. You just sit there at work, absently plucking an unnaturally long chin hair, and it hurts, but you just cant... stop... doing it...

ahem.

Blayze

2008-02-09, 08:05 AM

Or just come to me, and I'll see if my biological tendency towards moulting upper body hair is infectious. Seriously, I'm an extremely hairy guy when it comes to my extremities, and yet any chest hair I have is routinely removed by contact with any clothing I wear over it. My works jumper is the worst for it, forcing me to spend a significant portion of the day removing from the inside and outside of it individual hairs that have fallen victim to it.

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-09, 08:23 PM

You know, I probably have as much T as any man here. It's just that the only body hair I can grow seems to be in the obvious spot, on the lower legs, and the ocassional chin/armpit/navel hair. In that order of thickness respectively. The one below the navel especially, will grow undisturbed for several months, till it reaches about an inch or so, before I remove it by force. I'd rather remove all hair below the nostrils by plucking rather than shaving, since the ratio of skin to hair practically guarantees I'm going to be cut.

Felixaar

2008-02-10, 07:58 AM

Im not sure if this is manly or not, talking about hair removal.

Lyesmith

2008-02-10, 08:04 AM

I think hair removal qualifies as manly.
And what's this rumour i've been a-hearing that having long hair reduces the amount of Testosterone in the body?

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-10, 10:26 AM

Hair removal qualifies as manly if you pull them out, bulb and all. You can even pick. Many at a time(waxing/tape), or one by one(tweezers). The former has instant mass pain, while the latter has prolonged torture.:smallamused:

Lyesmith

2008-02-10, 10:28 AM

Waxing seems much saner.

Jagg

2008-02-10, 07:16 PM

What did you guys do to my thread????:smalleek:

HAIR REMOVAL? We are talking about hair removal? Look the only time we remove hair is when we need to make rope to lasso together two turtles for when we are marooned on a desert island, and even then we only take it from our backs.

Pft hair removal...bunch of metrosexuals...grumble grumble complain whinge.

Jagg

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-10, 08:13 PM

Women and metrosexuals do it for the beauty. Real men do it for the pain.:smallamused:

averagejoe

2008-02-10, 08:25 PM

Sucrose

2008-02-10, 08:30 PM

What's the deal with the whole swords=phallic symbols thing? I mean, I get how it could be used in literature, but seriously, what the heck am I supposed to fight with, a hole? Swords have a functional design, it seems to me, for which aesthetics is secondary. Because, you know, a fight to the death is one of those situations where you want to have the best tool available. Because death is rather serious.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say because said tool is a symbol of power. Anything powerful, so the logic goes, is a representation of your sexual awesomeness, or is compensating for lack of said awesomeness. In other news, Freud was a lunatic.

Jagg

2008-02-10, 08:56 PM

I thought real men played sports for the pain. A thing can be both painful and not manly. Like pretty much any of those blonde pop singers that seem to be so popular among kids these days. :smalltongue:

I've been wanting to get this off my chest for awhile, and this thread seems like a good place to do it.

What's the deal with the whole swords=phallic symbols thing? I mean, I get how it could be used in literature, but seriously, what the heck am I supposed to fight with, a hole? Swords have a functional design, it seems to me, for which aesthetics is secondary. Because, you know, a fight to the death is one of those situations where you want to have the best tool available. Because death is rather serious.

Um...how 'bout because it's just such an obvious cliche'? AJ ever actually fought with a sword? I did some martial arts weapons training, using a small thin and relatively light sword, and after swinging that thing around for a couple of hours my arms were ready to fall off. I can only imagine how tiring it would be to swing a greatsword or the like in battle. Bigger = more manly???? Wider and heavier = more damage = more manly???

How about facing your opponent on a one-to-one basis? Mano et mano, rather than sticking him full of crossbow bolts at a couple of hundred yards. It's a stereotype in every gung-ho movie where at the final climactic battle, when the bad guy is out of ammo, both he and the hero throw down the guns and duke it out. Ooh I need more facial scars, I'll just throw down my weapons and we can pound each other for a while. Hell even Lara Croft did it to prove how manly she is and she's a booby chick!!:smallmad:

averagejoe

2008-02-10, 11:02 PM

Er, Jagg, I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say there.

KindaChang

2008-02-10, 11:32 PM

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say because said tool is a symbol of power. Anything powerful, so the logic goes, is a representation of your sexual awesomeness, or is compensating for lack of said awesomeness. In other news, Freud was a lunatic.

And people like to use him when it supports their point.

"Swords a phallic symbol of war, thus war is a male invention!" :smallmad:

Mattarias, King.

2008-02-11, 12:52 AM

We are the dancers by the fire.
We stand fast against the cold.
We use no words but action-
And thus our lives unfold.

Hey, popping into this thread to say hi. Maybe offer up a bit of advice, too. Possibly also garner up some ideas for a character or two. :smallamused: I'm in a writing mood today.

-Also, the fighting mano-a-mano thing is more than just "Oog! Prove how powerful my muscles are to puny other man!" It's far more honorable to fight and die that way. There's nothing wrong with it. In fact, it's quite better than taking out your enemy from 500 yards away, without even learning their name.

Sisqui

2008-02-11, 02:08 AM

What's the deal with the whole swords=phallic symbols thing? I mean, I get how it could be used in literature, but seriously, what the heck am I supposed to fight with, a hole? Swords have a functional design, it seems to me, for which aesthetics is secondary. Because, you know, a fight to the death is one of those situations where you want to have the best tool available. Because death is rather serious.

I should think it would be obvious. Swords are long and hard, are age old symbols of masculine power, and best kept sheathed (as I am sure most men would agree). :smallbiggrin:

Hoggy

2008-02-11, 07:25 AM

Real men prefer claw hammers to swords.

averagejoe

2008-02-11, 03:08 PM

I should think it would be obvious. Swords are long and hard, are age old symbols of masculine power, and best kept sheathed (as I am sure most men would agree). :smallbiggrin:

No, I get that one could make a corralation metaphorically or whatever, but there were no blaksmiths going, "lol we mak teh swords look lik teh man bits to keeps teh womens down lol" I mean, you could even cross out the bit about keeping women down and the statement would still be true. I mean, one could probably make such correlations with anything. I could form a metaphoric relationship with, say, a forrest and death. That doesn't actually mean anything, though, except in the context of the metaphor itself.

Proven_Paradox

2008-02-11, 05:39 PM

Usually, when people start talking about an object being a phallic symbol, I stop listening. Freud was insane and he has polluted minds that are otherwise quite intelligent with, for all I can tell, complete nonsense.

Mx.Silver

2008-02-11, 07:34 PM

Freud was insane and he has polluted minds that are otherwise quite intelligent with, for all I can tell, complete nonsense.
I'm not sure I'd go as far as calling him insane, but he certainly wasn't well balanced. For what it's worth, most of his 'theories' have been disregarded by the psychological community for decades now and are widely considered to be flawed and incorrect. Unfortunately, the man still gets a obscenely huge amount of attention due to being the only psychologist most people have heard of.

Sisqui

2008-02-12, 01:04 AM

No, I get that one could make a corralation metaphorically or whatever, but there were no blaksmiths going, "lol we mak teh swords look lik teh man bits to keeps teh womens down lol" I mean, you could even cross out the bit about keeping women down and the statement would still be true. I mean, one could probably make such correlations with anything. I could form a metaphoric relationship with, say, a forrest and death. That doesn't actually mean anything, though, except in the context of the metaphor itself.
No metaphor ever does. That is why it is a metaphor. And really, this particular association resonates with people. Not all metaphors carry the impact and mass appeal this one does. But, sex appeals to most people. And as far as swords being phallic imagery, other than the similarity in shape, etc... they are still, and I think, more relevantly, linked together in people's consciousness by the knowledge that only men carried and wielded swords (and yes, their may have been a few exceptions, but not many). And a man's ability to use that sword determined if his dependents lived or died. His prowess with it had as much to do with his ability to ensure he had viable offspring as his sexual ability did. It is just a reality of life. You may not like the fact that violence is a necessity, but the truth has no great respect for people's preferences.

AtomicKitKat

2008-02-12, 09:24 AM

Both are used to enter another's body. *innocent whistles*

Supagoof

2008-02-12, 03:55 PM

I prefer a 20 lbs sledge to a claw hammer. :smallwink:

My thoughts on swords.

In public places like malls, I constantly say the word "sword" outloud. Certainly I get strange looks from the people who just walked in front of me, thus having me re-route my path around them while loudly exclaiming such word, but in my head it makes perfect sense. I exclaim it as if I'm calling for one, as a way of coping with the agression rising in me from the inconsideracy of the everyday person walking then stopping in my path at the mall. It is a good thing my wish is not granted, for if I found myself walking with a sword in hand I'd certainly be slicing through and cutting down anyone who walked/stopped in my path, which would certainly end up as a bad day for both them and myself. I don't have the ability to block police bullets with a sword. However, without the arrival of the sword, the confusion caused by exclaiming the name loudly is enough to pause the transgressor just enough for me to slightly alter my path without creating a name on the police' most wanted list.

Regardless of how phallic it is, I know with certainty a lot less people would be so rude to cut me off if I was holding a sword in my hand. It would also be far less noticable then holding item its phallicy is being compared too. If I had that in my hands, we'd have an issue with the police and public indecency, though there would probably be a lot less people in my way and more avoiding me. So a sword being phallic, meh. You see what you want to see.

And to answer the question of "Perhaps I'm the rude one cutting them off?" I would answer in the situation I describe that instance to be simply not true. As most of the people who aquire my anger are the ones who are A. walking in the same direction as me and B. suddenly stop and change direction, not looking to see if such an action would cause a collision.

Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way, maybe I should just start carrying a sword around, or if that seems to over-bearing, a sledge hammer strapped to my back? Your thoughts guys?

Shraik

2008-02-12, 03:55 PM

I have a problem

This is the whole story. For the past few weeks, I've had a crush on this one girl. Well, one friend of hers, who is sort of a friend of mine, was telling me how she dates a new guy every other month almost and gets around. He also stated how she gave a hand job(we're both freshman too:sigh:) to her last boyfriend(the one thing this is spoilered for). So, after analysis, I have really noticed me liking her is just limerence, which is the technical term for a crush, and has nothing to back up its intentions. The fact is, it started out as lust that turned to limerence, and after hearing that she is promiscuous, I am doubting whether or not to still go for it. The problem is, my head is somewhat saying no, while my other head(the one at the waistline) is beating my head into saying yes. I just need a little help about what I should do

Jagg

2008-02-12, 06:36 PM

I have a problem

I just need a little help about what I should do?

Shraik,

Remember the following...

Always wear protection

Actually you don't have a problem, you merely have a choice. Do you choose to listen to the big head who wants to find a nice girl, or the little head who has the heavy breathing thing going and saying bad girl...bad girl. Or at least that's what I can see going on in your head at present.

I'm not sure what you want me to say here. It appears that you are asking for permission or a glib explanation as to why you should pursue the "bad girl" and have naughty happy fun time and still retain a clear moral standing. Hey it's a choice, choose and learn from the consequences of your actions. I suppose you need to ask yourself if in five years are you going to look back and regret your choice? I would just like you to think about the following thing...

Why is the fact that this girl is "promiscuous" as you say a bad thing? Girls have needs too you know. If a guy sleeps with with 20 women in a month he's a stud, and frequently seen as an object of admiration. If a girl sleeps with 20 men in a month, she's a ho' and an object of derision and ostracism. Beyond your statement that you've heard she "gets around" - and schoolyard gossip tends to be full of misquotes, untruths and petty manipulations - what else do you know about this girl? Has she had naughty happy fun time with every guy? Or has she dated every guy and when they got pushy coz' she's totally smoking hot, kicked them to the kerb? Maybe she's just fussy and a princess? Point is unless you know the answers to these questions, you're forming a view of her based on what other people are saying about her. What's their motivation? If you talk to her you'll know whether the gossip is true or not.

JAGG

Jagg

2008-02-12, 10:41 PM

I know this isn't strictly a guy thing but I wanted to expand on it and ask around and see if anyone else was willing to stick their hands in the air.

This is something I said to Rubhakin in the relationship woes and advice thread....

"I don't think I can pick anything that feeds into my "natural talents" as I have none of them."

*SMACK* OK Rubhakin, here comes some psychology for you. If you keep putting yourself down it gets to be a habit. That little voice inside your head (don't worry we all have them) that says you are not good enough needs to be tied up and beaten by the rest of your brain. Hey there is even an Oots comic about doing just that thing where Haley's psyche beats up on her self loathing. You need to do the same. That little voice is not your friend. It's that little voice that tells smokers that they won't be the ones getting cancer, that tells drinkers they'll be fine to drive, that tells fat people it's too hard to lose weight, that tells abused women and men that they don't deserve happiness. In the end, these are the lies that we tell ourselves that lock us into our fates more rigorously than the colour of our skin, education, where we live or how much we earn; in fact it's the things we tell ourselves that dictate most of these factors. so STOP TELLING YOURSELF YOU ARE USELESS.

Ok men so hands up who has learnt to recognize that nasty little voice in the back of their heads that leads to all sorts of self destructive and negative behaviour?

Come to think of it recognition of the little voice seems to me a major part of growing up and healthy emotional growth. Maybe that's why some guys remain eternally um....Tools. Booping Tools because they've never learnt to recognize the little voice. I can think of one blonde Australian cricketer who would seem to fit that bill for sure, acting in ways that are self destructive to his career, his family life, his personal wealth.

Is it possible to get rid of the inner voice? Just being aware of it seems to diminish it somewhat, or at least you get better at recognizing when the sod is talking, but getting rid of it seems impossible. Everyone will always have self doubt.

Hands up guys (and girls who peek in the thread), who's found the inner voice of self doubt and loathing?

JAGG