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Emperor Demonking
2008-02-02, 06:00 AM
1. If your playing a melee type would you prefer to have a blaster or batman in your party?

2. As question 1 but if the two types were as powerful as batman?

3. What types of wizards are there?

4. As question 1 but with the types in question three?

5. As question 2 but with they types in question 3.

Zincorium
2008-02-02, 06:11 AM
1. If your playing a melee type would you prefer to have a blaster or batman in your party?

Batman wizard, they focus on buffing the party and controlling the battlefield. Meaning the enemies go down quickly and I feel useful.


2. As question 1 but if the two types were as powerful as batman?

Same, it's not a matter of power but of meshing well with the rest of the group.


3. What types of wizards are there?

4. As question 1 but with the types in question three?

5. As question 2 but with they types in question 3.

Unsure of what exactly is being asked here. I don't put wizards into types except for the whole specialization thing, almost everything comes down to what the player is like, wizards can be almost anything in the right hands.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-02, 06:12 AM
one who can do both.
blast weakens enemies overall so i can use my cleave/great cleave feats
one who can haste me to improve my attacks, or hamper enemies thus lowering their armour classes so i can use power attack more.
concentrate on one at the expense of the other and you are just creating a one-trick pony really anyway. no one 3rd level spell guarantees success in every encounter thrown at you.
though i'd prefer haste over fireball for most encounters unless the fight will last longer than haste duration.
(most in my campaign do)

Kurald Galain
2008-02-02, 06:26 AM
(1) Actually a Batman is more fun - the blaster does the same as I do (deal damage) whereas somebody who buffs, debuffs and throws around fog banks is assisting me a lot.

(2) Same thing, only more so. The blaster is either upstaging me or upstaged by me. The batman does something different.

Rad
2008-02-02, 10:20 AM
(1) Actually a Batman is more fun - the blaster does the same as I do (deal damage) whereas somebody who buffs, debuffs and throws around fog banks is assisting me a lot.

(2) Same thing, only more so. The blaster is either upstaging me or upstaged by me. The batman does something different.
I agree wholeheartedly. When you are in a party it is better to have different roles and not overshadow each other. It leads to less inter-party conflict and more fun

Ascension
2008-02-02, 01:13 PM
I've seen the phrase being used a lot around here... What, praytell, is a "batman" wizard? One who acts as a "utility belt" of spells? One who wears black and multiclasses into eldritch knight just so he can call himself "The Dark Knight"? One who wields fear as a weapon? One whose name is "Adam West"?

kpenguin
2008-02-02, 01:14 PM
A wizard whose utility belt of spells allows him to always win... with preparation.

Aerogoat
2008-02-02, 01:28 PM
I've seen the phrase being used a lot around here... What, praytell, is a "batman" wizard? When people here use that term, it refers to a Wizard focused on buffs, debuffs, save-or-dies and utility rather than direct damage spells. This way of playing was first encouraged by Snow Savant and a couple others on the Wizards boards and was made popular on this site by a wizard playguide called "Being Batman" by TheLogicNinja.

This playstyle focuses on "winning encounters" rather than actually killing the badguys. For instance, say a level 5 Wizard and his buddies are facing off against 4 Ogres:
A wizard could cast a fireball, dealing ~16 damage to the monsters. The Ogres are hurt, but they're still perfectly capable of eating the party.
Or the Wizard casts Glitterdust. This would remove 3 of the Ogres from the fight entirely. One Ogre is still able to effectively hurt the party, but the other 3 are sitting ducks.
The second plan is far safer and the spells that emphasize the second strategy are generally more likely to have utility use than damage spells (Disintegrate being the exception).

TLN coined the term "Batman" to acknowledge that a Wizard has enough options to be one of the most powerful in any situation as long as there's time for preparation.

Chronos
2008-02-02, 01:38 PM
Even if blasters were as powerful as Batmen, the front-line fighter still doesn't like blasters much. If I'm surrounded by orcs (as I can expect to be, if I want to make good use of Cleave or Whirlwind Attack, or even just iterative attacks), and the wizard fireballs the orcs, what's the logically-predictable outcome for me?

Closet_Skeleton
2008-02-02, 01:40 PM
Batman.

The Blaster Wizard uses area effect spells that might hit you and basically does the same job as you.

The Batman Wizard actually helps you, crowd control spells stop you being overwhelmed, buff spells make you fight better.

Logic Ninja's guide does mention casting spells on fighter allies. You can try and find ways blaster wizards are better than batman wizards but this isn't one of them.

Ascension
2008-02-02, 01:46 PM
Even if blasters were as powerful as Batmen, the front-line fighter still doesn't like blasters much. If I'm surrounded by orcs (as I can expect to be, if I want to make good use of Cleave or Whirlwind Attack, or even just iterative attacks), and the wizard fireballs the orcs, what's the logically-predictable outcome for me?

Depends on your reflex save... :smallamused:

My experiences with blasters have been fairly good. Our wizard is skilled at placing fireballs and other stuff like that so that the wrong folks don't get caught in the blast, and we usually hang back until he's got the area effect stuff out of his system. Of course, it helps that our fighter and rogue are both using ranged weapons and our only real melee fighters are a paladin and a wildshaped druid...

mabriss lethe
2008-02-02, 03:27 PM
An Eldritch Theurge with the proper selection of goodies can do both really well. spam darkness, wall of gloom, caustic mires and nightmare terrains as appropriate with invocations to make the battlefield a mess, Stack as many buff spells as you feel comfortable with spending, then start sniping away at your foes with EBs, other invocations, whatever.

Mix and match spell selection, invocations and reserve feats to get a rather nasty combination of abilities. used up all your lesser invocation slots but still want "flee the scene?" take Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat and keep a teleportation spell in reserve. Use the combination of the three to fill in your gaps. You won't be unstoppable, but you'll be a tough nut to crack in any situation.

Kyeudo
2008-02-02, 03:43 PM
What I find most interesting is that the optimized wizard is considered a better ally to the fighter than the weaker unoptimized wizard, dispite what I often hear from the max-miners out there.

As for other wizard styles out there, there is the minion master that uses conjurations, necromancy, or enchantments to control large numbers of creatures, but thats not a common style, since it slows play down in many cases.

Yami
2008-02-02, 05:00 PM
1. Chances are I would be the blaster. Explosive Dance of Ruin works rather well in melee, and there are a good number of melee ranged spells. We must not for get shivering touch.

Likewise though I could be a tranmutation specialist, trying to buff myself and see if Tenser's Transformation can actually be useful.

2. This makes no sense. A blaster as powerful as a batman means he's a batman. Batman always has the right answer, and sometimes, that answer may very well be blasting.

3. As many as leaves in the wind, as cups of water in the great rivers.

4. If I were a melee type, I would want a wizard who worked well with what ever melee type I was. Just as you can have any flavor of wizard, you also have many flavors of Melee. Melee is not always Shocktrooping. Sometimes 'Melee' means grabbing a burrow speed and 40ft reach.

5 Again, I must reiterate. If a spell caster equals batman in power it is because he too is batman. There is no other alternative. Knowledge is power, and those who abuse such power are known as batmen amongst us.

Devils_Advocate
2008-02-02, 05:30 PM
I've seen the phrase being used a lot around here... What, praytell, is a "batman" wizard? One who acts as a "utility belt" of spells? One who wears black and multiclasses into eldritch knight just so he can call himself "The Dark Knight"? One who wields fear as a weapon? One whose name is "Adam West"?
Obligatory link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)

To paraphrase from one discussion: "A lot of this Wizard vs. Sorcerer stuff strikes me as similar to the Batman vs. Superman debate. 'Batman always wins, if prepared.' And Batman almost always is prepared, so he almost always wins."

One of the central ideas is that, at a very high level of abstraction, a wizard's most important duty is to do everything that the party needs done but that no one else can do. In theory, you could use that job description for every character. In practice, at high levels, there probably is no important task that the Fighter alone can perform. Other characters may be less redundant, but the Wizard is likely to be the least redundant. It's one of those "with great power comes great responsibility" dealies.

Anyway, why the heck aren't "Batman" and "Pun-Pun" in the Common Acronyms, Abbreviations, and Terms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512) thread yet?

Kyeudo
2008-02-02, 05:38 PM
5 Again, I must reiterate. If a spell caster equals batman in power it is because he too is batman. There is no other alternative. Knowledge is power, and those who abuse such power are known as batmen amongst us.

I take offense to that. Its not an abuse of power to be prepared. So I spent a day divining all the BBEG's weaknesses to prepare for the attack. Not my fault he forgot to use some simple spells to escape such measures.

Wizards who arn't prepared realy arn't wizards. Even those that like blasting prepare multiple energy types at the very least.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-02-02, 10:08 PM
I don't know. A dedicated blaster caster is a scary sight, especially if we use a couple of splat books to add to the number of different damage spells and meta magic feats they have access to. Then again, such a build tends to be a bit of a nova build. Still, a dedicated evocationist who has put his/her DC into the stratosphere can act very much like an artillery piece even without throwing up a quickened spell and an empowered spell every round. Sure, the first shot probably wont take out that fortified bunker, but it'll damage it, possibly significantly. If you keep firing, you'll reduce that bunker to a smoldering ruin and kill everything inside. Once you get you're first level in archmage and pick up mastery of shaping, then you can really start to have fun.

This does invalidate the fighters role a bit, but I think this fact is over shadowed by how the game can throw ECL appropriate encounters at you that would rip your front-liner apart should he choose to start trading blows. This is when a blaster caster really shines.

Batmans on the other hand, well batmans rock to. Against a lot of those crazy scary enemy frontliners of doom, you'll kick their asses if you've got freedom of movement, greater heroism, and displacement running. You'll also win if they've just been hit with empowered poison and ray of enfeeblement spells. (Most anyway, Infernals and Undead tend to have crazy amounts of abilities that let them either cut through your defenses or be able to resist your casters debuffs, or both). Still, most of the time battlefield control will work on almost anyone, and a lot of the time a single spell of this nature can win for you. I guess Batman is in general better, but a dedicated blaster in the right situation can wreak utter havoc.

This question: other kinds of casters. Well as already mentioned, you've got the minion master (usually done through excessive use of summon monsters ally). Still, Druids are better at this, so minion masters usually go druid. Unless your minions are undead, in which case Clerics are usually better at this.You've got the battlefield control monkey, a spot where wizards excel, and which frequently has no save attached. These guys are potent.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-02, 11:50 PM
1 Depends on the level and complexity of the game but most games do tend to revolve around defeating the BBEG in combat. Generally better to have a good blaster than a poor Batman with a poor spell selection at low levels. Reserve Feats are nice for blasting with a good utility Wizard or Battle Sorcerer. I'd have to be really be hurting to play a Warmage or have one in the party.

2 Sounds like a low level Beguiler using the Precocious Apprentice feat to take Scorching Ray to fuel the Fiery Burst Reserve feat (Probably not an option in most games) or something like the Arcane Disciple Fire for a similar effect.

3 - 5 is mostly a matter of each individual game, the player's, the DM, their knowledge, the game source material allowed to be used in the game and their personal tastes and preferences.

Voyager_I
2008-02-03, 12:11 AM
An intelligently played Batman still beats out an intelligently played Blaster, and flat-out does cooler things. We don't need to fireball the bad guys, because I'm already going to whack them to death. However, if you'd like to make me whack harder, or make it so they can't whack me, I'll appreciate that very, very much. The fact that the Batman is more powerful and much less likely to consider Fireballing me an "acceptable loss" simply makes the decision easier.

Of course, part of the Blaster stereotype of haphazardly flinging area spells might come from the fact newer players who don't know any better seem to gravitate naturally towards explosions. If you could somehow convince a more experienced player to take Fireball instead of Haste, he'd probably be appropriately judicious in its application. I'd still prefer the latter, but at least he'd be less of a liability.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-02-03, 12:24 AM
As long as the wizard in question isn't a 2e wild mage, I'm a happy hacker. :smallbiggrin:

TS

mabriss lethe
2008-02-03, 03:03 PM
Success usually comes from hammering out some set strategies from the get-go. Whith these strategies in place, it doesn't matter quite so much if you've got a blaster or a batman.

Blasters don't do too well in situations where their melee pals are trading blows toe to toe with an enemy. too many area effect spells to possibly nuke your fighter with. Now if your melee buddies decide to skirmish instead, using hit and run tactics, a blaster really shines. They engage, deal some damage, then retreat. The enemy gives chase. Once /if the melee-ers are clear, the blaster drops a fireball or three. the melee peeps take advantage of it to turn and skirmish again. If not, he pops off a couple of more precise spells to add to the confusion until they can break free.

Voyager_I
2008-02-03, 06:37 PM
Success usually comes from hammering out some set strategies from the get-go. Whith these strategies in place, it doesn't matter quite so much if you've got a blaster or a batman.

Blasters don't do too well in situations where their melee pals are trading blows toe to toe with an enemy. too many area effect spells to possibly nuke your fighter with. Now if your melee buddies decide to skirmish instead, using hit and run tactics, a blaster really shines. They engage, deal some damage, then retreat. The enemy gives chase. Once /if the melee-ers are clear, the blaster drops a fireball or three. the melee peeps take advantage of it to turn and skirmish again. If not, he pops off a couple of more precise spells to add to the confusion until they can break free.

Take advantage of what? They're slightly more damaged and a move action closer, but they're not actually debilitated in any way. Sounds like you'd be better served with a batman to slow them down (with say, Slow, in place of Fireball).