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Tetsubo 57
2008-02-02, 08:00 AM
I was reading the article in the Dragon Compendium this week and the Bladedancer looks like it would be great fun to play. Does anyone have any experience with the class first hand?

I was thinking of a Human, probably a 28 point build (ST 14, DX 14, CN 14, IN 10, WS 10, CH 14), going for a Spring Attack Feat tree initially. Maybe add in Improved Natural Attack at 9th level. Any thoughts?

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-02, 08:17 AM
Spring Attack is a trap. Other than that, I don't know anything about Bladedancer.

Tetsubo 57
2008-02-02, 09:23 AM
Spring Attack is a trap. Other than that, I don't know anything about Bladedancer.

OK... why do you say that?

Zincorium
2008-02-02, 09:33 AM
OK... why do you say that?

You're spending three feats to take an entire round making a single attack and moving around.

Most monsters will simply charge you every time you do this, and you're giving up the ability to use a full attack action (which is where most fighting characters do the most damage).

The prerequisite feats aren't even decent feats, dodge and mobility are widely regarded as just above skill focus in value.

Tetsubo 57
2008-02-02, 09:39 AM
You're spending three feats to take an entire round making a single attack and moving around.

Most monsters will simply charge you every time you do this, and you're giving up the ability to use a full attack action (which is where most fighting characters do the most damage).

The prerequisite feats aren't even decent feats, dodge and mobility are widely regarded as just above skill focus in value.

The Bladedancer class grants a movement bonus (like the Monk). At high levels a human will have a move of 60'. Move 30', attack, move another 30'. Admittedly getting only a single attack is sub par. Additionally the class grants a Fly speed at 17th level. So, fly 30', attack. fly another 30'.

I haven't ever been a fan of Dodge or Mobility as written either. I let the Dodge bonus be a flat +1 to the characters AC. Since no player ever took Mobility I never came up with a house rule for it.

I can see your point. But I really like the combat style that Spring Attack allows.

Neftren
2008-02-02, 09:42 AM
The real beauty in Spring Attack is with Skirmish Damage and Bounding Assault + Rapid Blitz. You're swinging your sword three times while moving, and you're dealing skirmish damage as a bonus.

Talya
2008-02-02, 09:42 AM
The Bladedancer class grants a movement bonus (like the Monk). At high levels a human will have a move of 60'. Move 30', attack, move another 30'. Admittedly getting only a single attack is sub par. Additionally the class grants a Fly speed at 17th level. So, fly 30', attack. fly another 30'.

I haven't ever been a fan of Dodge or Mobility as written either. I let the Dodge bonus be a flat +1 to the characters AC. Since no player ever took Mobility I never came up with a house rule for it.

I can see your point. But I really like the combat style that Spring Attack allows.

Use expeditious dodge to replace dodge in that build.

Telok
2008-02-02, 10:30 AM
While Dodge is always sucky feat, Mobility is good for Spring Attack. It's +4 AC vs the AoOs you'll provoke from your movement. You can max out Tumble to avoid AoOs but it halves your speed.

Spring Attack is a nice option for medium HP/AC classes who don't want to fight toe-to-toe with plate wearing Power Attack monsters. Combined with your allies, terrain, and certain other feats it becomes a quite valid combat style.

You can pick up Rolibar's Gambit or Karmic Strike. With a high Dex you can start getting more attacks than your full iterative and all of them at full BaB. Granted, they'll be against different targets, but it still works. Dodge and Mobility are also prereqs for Elusive Target, which can give you free trip attacks on anyone who misses an AoO on you.

Tetsubo 57
2008-02-02, 10:36 AM
Use expeditious dodge to replace dodge in that build.

What book is that in?

Talya
2008-02-02, 11:33 AM
Races of the Wild. It grants +2 ac vs all opponents in any round in which you move a certain distance. It also counts as dodge for anything that has dodge as a prerequesite.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-02, 11:41 AM
OK... why do you say that?

Depending on what level you're playing at, it may be easier to obtain a (semi-)permanent means of flight, and take Flyby Attack, which does not have any prerequisites. Thus you free up two feat slots.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-02, 11:49 AM
The thing with spring attack is, without the PHBII, it's really sucky. Three feats for a single moving attack is so bad it makes you cry.

WITH a PHB, however, you get the possibility of taking Bounding assault and Rapid blitz, and each gives you an extra attack, which makes it actually worth. Problem with that is, it pretty much forces you to go fighter because of the feats needed.

tyckspoon
2008-02-02, 04:35 PM
The Bladedancer class grants a movement bonus (like the Monk). At high levels a human will have a move of 60'. Move 30', attack, move another 30'. Admittedly getting only a single attack is sub par. Additionally the class grants a Fly speed at 17th level. So, fly 30', attack. fly another 30'.

I haven't ever been a fan of Dodge or Mobility as written either. I let the Dodge bonus be a flat +1 to the characters AC. Since no player ever took Mobility I never came up with a house rule for it.

I can see your point. But I really like the combat style that Spring Attack allows.

Ok, you move 30 feet away.. now go pick up your Monster Manual and look for monsters that have less than a 15-foot base movement. Those are all the monsters that won't be able to reach you with a charge. There aren't very many, and that's why Spring Attack doesn't work. It's a little better with flight, but if you're planning to fly you can save feats with Flyby Attack instead (and it takes all the way to 17th level for the class to get flight naturally. Long wait, if you aren't starting the game in that area.)

On the class itself:
Pros-
Full BAB.
Useful special abilities- Pounce at 11, remove opponent's ability to make AoO at 14, Flight at 17

Cons-
Still just as MAD as the Monk, still only has the d8 HD- fragile for a melee combatant.
AC bonus runs off Charisma. The other Battledancer abilities that are affected by Charisma are negligible.. you'd be better off ignoring that to focus on Dex and/or just wear some no-check-penalty armor.. the AC bonus is the only Battledancer ability that is penalized for wearing armor.
Takes a long time to start getting the most useful abilities.
Really useless capstone.

Overall, I'd say it's about even with the Monk. Better in some key areas (BAB, Pouncing), worse in a few others (Charisma does far less for the Battledancer than Wisdom does for the Monk, only one good save). Charisma to AC and full BAB makes a decent dip for a sorcerous gish. I would probably take it to 11 for the Pouncing dance, at most.

Leon
2008-02-02, 08:17 PM
Ok, you move 30 feet away.. now go pick up your Monster Manual and look for monsters that have less than a 15-foot base movement. Those are all the monsters that won't be able to reach you with a charge. There aren't very many, and that's why Spring Attack doesn't work.

Unless you are Soloing something a creature is not as likely to break off from combat to follow the spring attacker, so since D&D is aimed as a Team game you have less to worry about

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-02, 08:48 PM
The Bladedancer class grants a movement bonus (like the Monk). At high levels a human will have a move of 60'. Move 30', attack, move another 30'.

Meh. Any medium-sized humanoid can charge you. Heck, any medium-sized humanoid can just use a move action to reach you.


Admittedly getting only a single attack is sub par. Additionally the class grants a Fly speed at 17th level. So, fly 30', attack. fly another 30'

Actually, you need Fly-By Attack for that.


I can see your point. But I really like the combat style that Spring Attack allows.

Dervish does it better. I highly suggest using that instead.

EDIT:

So I looked through Dragon Compendium.. And lo and behold I find the Battle Dancer, which I assume is what you're refering to.

Battle Dancer is just Monk with Bardic Music in the form of 'dances', full BAB, and weak saves. I mean, sure, you never take an AoO from those great tumble ranks.. But isn't a particularly great class to begin with and Spring Attack just makes it worse. Heck, Dance of the Springing Tiger gives you pounce.

Don't bother with Spring Attack. You have full BAB and Pounce for a reason and Spring Attack is not that reason.