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Emperor Demonking
2008-02-02, 08:13 AM
What's the lowest level core wizard to defeat an Iron golem?

Curmudgeon
2008-02-02, 04:48 PM
You only need level 1 to use a wand of Grease repeatedly, and a heavy crossbow with adamantine bolts.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-02, 04:55 PM
I beg to differ, an Iron Golem can do some pretty nasty stuff, like that cloud of poison gas, that is more than merely melee.

By 11th, they're trivial, as that's when you get Disintegrate

tyckspoon
2008-02-02, 04:55 PM
5th level- Flight makes the Golem a non-threat in any space that is large enough to get over it. It can be destroyed with any SR: No spell; Acid Arrow, preferably in wand form, is probably the best Core choice.

Indon
2008-02-02, 04:57 PM
A level 1 character couldn't afford anything adamantine.

Edit: And the Golem's speed practically makes it a non-threat at level 1, especially if you have a base speed over 30.

Thanatos 51-50
2008-02-02, 04:58 PM
A level 1 character couldn't afford anything adamantine.

Edit: And the Golem's speed practically makes it a non-threat at level 1, especially if you have a base speed over 30.

Who said the Wizard would be buying it? Thats what buffing the party rogue is for.

Tengu
2008-02-02, 04:59 PM
Who said the Wizard would be buying it? Thats what buffing the party rogue is for.

What level 1 buffs can improve the rogue's stealing ability?

Collin152
2008-02-02, 05:05 PM
What level 1 buffs can improve the rogue's stealing ability?

Silent Image. Just distract the shopkeep. Also, Ghost sound, level 0.

Indon
2008-02-02, 05:06 PM
5th level- Flight makes the Golem a non-threat in any space that is large enough to get over it. It can be destroyed with any SR: No spell; Acid Arrow, preferably in wand form, is probably the best Core choice.

In fact, based on this, Level 3.

Sorceror 1/Barbarian 1/Anything else 1. Level 3's needed to afford a Wand of Acid Arrow without blowing too much of your WBL. Take Dash as one of your feats and be a medium size race. Your base speed is now 45, faster than the Golem can double-move, and your double-move is faster than the Golem can run. Stay out of the way and blast him occasionally without getting too tired.

TempusCCK
2008-02-02, 05:10 PM
Eh, you're all making the assumption that you're in an environment that allows for alot of running and avoiding, not every encounter takes place in a 60 x 60 square room.

kamikasei
2008-02-02, 05:11 PM
Sorceror 1/Barbarian 1/Anything else 1.

Strictly speaking, it's lowest-level wizard. So what you have there might be allowed, but only if it's sorcerer/barbarian/wizard.

Tengu
2008-02-02, 05:15 PM
Silent Image. Just distract the shopkeep. Also, Ghost sound, level 0.

I think that a shopkeeper who sells adamatine weapons would be able to afford good security.

And on topic, I think tyckspoon got it right - without flight it might be too risky, even if you are faster than the golem.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-02, 05:25 PM
I beg to differ, an Iron Golem can do some pretty nasty stuff, like that cloud of poison gas, that is more than merely melee.

By 11th, they're trivial, as that's when you get Disintegrate

Disintegrate doesn't work on Iron golems. It's SR: Yes so their magic immunity kicks in.

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In the right circumstances a level 1 wizard can off an Iron Golem. But generally I would say post 5th level (when the wizard gets fly).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-02, 05:28 PM
Make a successful knowledge check or hire a sage to learn the following regarding Iron golems in game in some kind of game context:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#ironGolem

CR13 encounter, AC 30, 18D10 (Edit Average 129 HP), DR15/Adamantine, MV 20, EX- Immunity to Magic (In general most spells that allow Spell Resistance with a few specific variants like electric or fire attacks), Construct Traits, Posionous Gas cloud DC 19 con, Int-0, Wis - 11

A Air Gensai PC would be nice for the poisonous gas immunity if for some reason it gets close to the PC.

Grease spell from a Wand would normally be L1 for a 10' square lasting 1 round, Reflex Save is +5 so would want to encounter it in a confined tunnel and still 1 out 4 times it will be unaffected by the Grease spell.

Any Electrical attacks slow it including the Electric Jolt cantrip (Non core) could slow it with no save.

Limited to Core a Wand of Lightning Bolts probably the best method in a non confined space since each attack will automatically Slow it and deal an average of 17 hit points on a failed save and 8 hit points of damage on a successful save since it has an average of (Edit 129) hit points plan for the worst and 10 attacks so a a one quarter or greater charged wand.

A fully charged Wand of Lightning Bolts (5D6) is 11,250 gp market so a 1/4 charge wand is just under 3,000 gp and a half charged is 5,625 gp so using suggested wealth by level guidelines of no magical item of more than a quarter of suggested wealth either a L6 or L7 wizard page 135 DMG.

Of course a quarter charged wand would would only be 2,8125 gp and a Flying L5 wizard could probably just do it using suggested wealth by level guidelines.

Getting away from core probaly a few good electrical L2 spells that would work with a fully charged wand at 4,500 gp still works out to L7 at 19,000 gp suggested wealth by level.

In a really really long corridor a 2 or 3 Wands of Electric Jolt and a Wand of Grease could possibly do it with no mistakes or missteps by the PC since the wand would be averaging about 1 hit point each attack so would require over a 100 attacks. but theoretically possible.

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Proably L5 flying wizard is the lowest level it can be done consistently in game by a standard 25 point buy or default array wizard with a quarter charged Wand of Lightning Bolts in core using suggested wealth by level by acquiring a partially charged Wand of Lightning Bolts.

Indon
2008-02-02, 05:29 PM
Strictly speaking, it's lowest-level wizard. So what you have there might be allowed, but only if it's sorcerer/barbarian/wizard.

Oh, hey, go figure. Make that Wizard/Barbarian/Anything, then, because I'm blind.

Mysticaloctopus
2008-02-02, 05:33 PM
When you have Disintegrate and think well on your feet, many things die horribly. An unimaginative DM who places the encounter in a 60x60x40 room with no environmental features won't likely allow this, but when I put my PCs up against an iron golem on a thin iron bridge (Steampunk dungeon... delicious steampunk...)
the party wizard just hit a part of the bridge with Disintegrate when the Golem was on it. He spent a few rounds studying the bridge first from where he was standing, and passed a hidden roll to find a point that wouldn't bring the bridge crashing down immediately. As such, the party then had to leg it across the bridge before it did fall, but it was a smart way of beating the Golem.

Bottom line - foes with so many immunities can often be splattered by some alternate means of winning. The golem may not have been destroyed, but it was certainly out of the way and no longer a threat.

Sebastian
2008-02-02, 05:59 PM
A level 1 character couldn't afford anything adamantine.

Edit: And the Golem's speed practically makes it a non-threat at level 1, especially if you have a base speed over 30.

He don't needs adamantine all he needs are enough oil flasks prepared with a fuse (funny enough, golems don't have fire resistance).

Keep your distance, throw one lit flask (touch attack), then move away, full move away if the golem risk to get too close for confort, if you have the room to move is an easy victory. :)

Of course it don't need to be a wizard at all, actually the best way to beat a golem (and many other monsters) are a bunch of peasant armed with a lot of oil flasks. if you don't have fire resistance they are lethal. On an average 30 peasants with this method can do 15d6 fire damage/round for 2 rounds. Of course they are very vulnerable but they are also cheap, so they should widely employed in D&D armies. :D

Curmudgeon
2008-02-02, 06:23 PM
I beg to differ, an Iron Golem can do some pretty nasty stuff, like that cloud of poison gas, that is more than merely melee. Lesser Orb of Electricity (level 1) will damage and also slow the golem, making it easy to pick off from a distance. Remember, the golem's breath weapon only reaches 10' and lasts just the single round. If you slow the thing it can move or attack, not both in one round (except for the free action breath weapon with its 10' limit). If you stay at least 30' away (Close range at level 1, plus 5') and manage to hit it with an electrical orb at least every 3 rounds it's pretty much impotent. Add a bit of Grease and it'll do nothing but stand up from prone half the time due to a sucky Reflex save and a -1 Balance modifier.

You only need to hit its (ranged) touch AC of 8. A bit of feat selection (Weapon Focus: ranged touch spell) and a good DEX mean you'll hit it almost all the time.

One wand of Lesser Orb of Electricity costs 750 gp (less than the 900 gp of wealth a character is supposed to have when they reach level 2) and averages 4.5 points of electrical damage on each hit. A single wand and a DEX modifier of +3 (perfectly reasonable for an Elf, with Wizard as that race's favored class) gives you a very comfortable margin to finish off the 129 HP iron golem, allowing for misses on attack rolls of 1-3.

The answer is level 1.

Collin152
2008-02-02, 06:27 PM
He don't needs adamantine all he needs are enough oil flasks prepared with a fuse (funny enough, golems don't have fire resistance).

Keep your distance, throw one lit flask (touch attack), then move away, full move away if the golem risk to get too close for confort, if you have the room to move is an easy victory. :)

Of course it don't need to be a wizard at all, actually the best way to beat a golem (and many other monsters) are a bunch of peasant armed with a lot of oil flasks. if you don't have fire resistance they are lethal. On an average 30 peasants with this method can do 15d6 fire damage/round for 2 rounds. Of course they are very vulnerable but they are also cheap, so they should widely employed in D&D armies. :D

I thought fire healed Iron Golems.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-02, 06:28 PM
Abusing the golem's AI, using spell spolits, and shooting while running out of its range?

ZOMG! D&D IS TEH MMORPG!!111one

Curmudgeon
2008-02-02, 06:43 PM
I thought fire healed Iron Golems.
A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, an iron golem hit by a fireball gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. An iron golem gets no saving throw against fire effects. Burning oil won't heal an iron golem since it's not magical.

Collin152
2008-02-02, 06:44 PM
Burning oil won't do anything to a golem. It doesn't get through the damage reduction, as I pointed out in my edit above. And since it's not magical, it doesn't heal, either.

Wow. If that isn't unusual.

tyckspoon
2008-02-02, 06:49 PM
[
(error corrected)

..energy attacks bypass DR, d00d. All of them, even the nonmagical sources.


He don't needs adamantine all he needs are enough oil flasks prepared with a fuse (funny enough, golems don't have fire resistance).

Keep your distance, throw one lit flask (touch attack), then move away, full move away if the golem risk to get too close for confort, if you have the room to move is an easy victory. :)

Keep in mind that thrown weapons can only get out to five range increments; that's 50 feet away for the oil flasks, and you're taking a -10 to hit at that range. If the Golem ever gets within 10 feet of you, it can poison you. That means you have to be more than 90 feet away (80 foot Run action + 10 foot cube of poison) on the golem's turn in order to be safe, and within 50 feet on your turn in order to attack. That may be *possible*, but it's definitely not easy, and it takes a lot of space to maneuver.. if you're flying and have the space to hover 20 feet or so over the golem, however, it is cheaper to just dump a lot of burning oil on the Golem's head instead of burning off charges on a wand of Acid Arrow.

Collin152
2008-02-02, 06:51 PM
..energy attacks bypass DR, d00d. All of them, even the nonmagical sources.

This is why I hate Damage Reduction, among other things.
Don't even get me started on this "Instant Healing" supernatural damage reduction!

Curmudgeon
2008-02-02, 06:53 PM
..energy attacks bypass DR, d00d. All of them, even the nonmagical sources. Well, color my face red. I misremembered that.

I guess I'll go back and UN-edit the post so it makes sense again. :smallannoyed:

Collin152
2008-02-02, 07:00 PM
Well, color my face red. I misremembered that.

I guess I'll go back and UN-edit the post so it makes sense again. :smallannoyed:

Would it help if I removed my quote of you getting it wrong, too?

Curmudgeon
2008-02-02, 07:25 PM
He don't needs adamantine all he needs are enough oil flasks prepared with a fuse (funny enough, golems don't have fire resistance).

Keep your distance, throw one lit flask (touch attack), then move away, full move away if the golem risk to get too close for confort, if you have the room to move is an easy victory. :) You'll need plenty of flasks, and a good ranged attack modifier. Plus it's problematic to prepare more than one flask in advance: there's only a small bit of oil in the fuse itself, and that starts burning off as soon as you light it. If you don't break the sealed flask quickly, the fuse oil will be exhausted and you'll need to repeat the preparation.
Oil

A pint of oil burns for 6 hours in a lantern. You can use a flask of oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist’s fire, except that it takes a full round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.

You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.
Alchemist’s Fire

You can throw a flask of alchemist’s fire as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.

A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage. There's a -2 range penalty at 10' from the golem (which is within its reach), a -4 range penalty at 20', ... up to a -10 penalty at 50', the maximum range permitted.

Would it help if I removed my quote of you getting it wrong, too? Huh? No, I earned that embarrassment honestly. Plus it's useful to point out this fact to others who might make the same mistake. But I did want my "level 1 wizard solution" post -- which had nothing to do with burning oil -- to make sense again.

Collin152
2008-02-02, 07:28 PM
Lesser Orb of Electricity (level 1) will damage and also slow the golem, making it easy to pick off from a distance. Remember, the golem's breath weapon only reaches 10' and lasts just the single round. If you slow the thing it can move or attack, not both in one round (except for the free action breath weapon with its 10' limit). If you stay at least 30' away (Close range at level 1, plus 5') and manage to hit it with an electrical orb at least every 3 rounds it's pretty much impotent. Add a bit of Grease and it'll do nothing but stand up from prone half the time due to a sucky Reflex save and a -1 Balance modifier.

You only need to hit its (ranged) touch AC of 8. A bit of feat selection (Weapon Focus: ranged touch spell) and a good DEX mean you'll hit it almost all the time.

One wand of Lesser Orb of Electricity costs 750 gp (less than the 900 gp of wealth a character is supposed to have when they reach level 2) and averages 4.5 points of electrical damage on each hit. A single wand and a DEX modifier of +3 (perfectly reasonable for an Elf, with Wizard as that race's favored class) gives you a very comfortable margin to finish off the 129 HP iron golem, allowing for misses on attack rolls of 1-3.

The answer is level 1.

Also, I thought these were core wizards?

Curmudgeon
2008-02-02, 08:07 PM
Also, I thought these were core wizards? It is a straight core Wizard -- no alternate class features whatsoever. The OP didn't say anything about only using core spells, though.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-02, 08:39 PM
You only need to hit its (ranged) touch AC of 8. A bit of feat selection (Weapon Focus: ranged touch spell) and a good DEX mean you'll hit it almost all the time.

One wand of Lesser Orb of Electricity costs 750 gp (less than the 900 gp of wealth a character is supposed to have when they reach level 2) and averages 4.5 points of electrical damage on each hit. A single wand and a DEX modifier of +3 (perfectly reasonable for an Elf, with Wizard as that race's favored class) gives you a very comfortable margin to finish off the 129 HP iron golem, allowing for misses on attack rolls of 1-3.

The answer is level 1.

Very clever but I disagree since the spell and the wand of Lesser Orb of Electricity do not exist in core in the SRD or DMG so original spell research rules come into play for non core spells. Good catch on the golem hit points I amended my earlier post.

Another game default is no PC having any item comprising more than a quarter of his suggested wealth by level so L3 at the minimum when suggested wealth is 2,700 gp since suggested wealth is only 900 gp at L2 even with a used wand.

1D8 would average 4.5 average hit points of damage on a sucessful attack with an average golem having 129 hit points that is 28.66 attacks so lets just say 29 sucessful attacks and not all attacks would be successful and hit so the combat would last longer than 29 rounds.

Using the default array the average wizard would only have a dexterity of 12 or 13 as most will go for that 14 con with a first level PC (Using 25 point buy most pump up Intelligence to 16). An elf PC with a dexterity of 16 would mean a Con score of 10 or 11 using the default array isn't what you see in most games with a 4 base hit point level 1 wizard.

Most wizard PCs don't take all those feats at that level so more attacks would miss requiring more charges.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-02, 08:55 PM
Lesser Orb of Electricity (level 1)*snip*

The answer is level 1.
Slight problem with that specific strategy....

What's the lowest level core wizard to defeat an Iron golem?(Emphasis added)

The Orb line is in Complete Arcane, not the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, or Dungeon Master's Guide.

However, it's only got a 20 foot move. Most of the base races have a 30 foot move (this is one time when you don't want to be a Dwarf Wizard).

If you can outrun it long enough (you need enough space so that you can always arrange so that it can't reach you on a Run - so about a 100 foot radius room, give or take, for this strategy, although an infinite hallway also works), and have something to penetrate it's DR (flasks of Acid, Alchemist's Fire, the aforementioned Flasks of Oil with lit fuses, adamantine light crossbow bolts, whatever) and you have enough of the DR penetrating method, you can pull it off at level 1.

Pyrian
2008-02-02, 09:27 PM
Wait, why do people think electricity damages iron golems in addition to the slow effect?

Curmudgeon
2008-02-02, 10:27 PM
Wait, why do people think electricity damages iron golems in addition to the slow effect? Maybe because that's in the rules?
A magical attack that deals electricity damage slows an iron golem (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. There's a specific statement that fire damage doesn't hurt the iron golem. Yet you'll note the conspicuous absence of any "otherwise" statement involving the electricity damage. Without any statement that electrical damage doesn't apply to the iron golem, the usual rule remains in effect.

Pyrian
2008-02-03, 02:34 AM
Without any statement that electrical damage doesn't apply to the iron golem, the usual rule remains in effect.
Sure, but in this case the usual rule is that it's immune because it's a spell that allows spell resistance. "In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below." In addition and differently underscore the point.

Even the fire-damage quote you're using in support assumes the damage is not done rather than demonstrating any need to state it.

Talic
2008-02-03, 02:43 AM
Keep in mind that thrown weapons can only get out to five range increments; that's 50 feet away for the oil flasks, and you're taking a -10 to hit at that range. If the Golem ever gets within 10 feet of you, it can poison you. That means you have to be more than 90 feet away (80 foot Run action + 10 foot cube of poison) on the golem's turn in order to be safe, and within 50 feet on your turn in order to attack. That may be *possible*, but it's definitely not easy, and it takes a lot of space to maneuver.. if you're flying and have the space to hover 20 feet or so over the golem, however, it is cheaper to just dump a lot of burning oil on the Golem's head instead of burning off charges on a wand of Acid Arrow.

..Iron golems can't run, d00d.

tyckspoon
2008-02-03, 02:59 AM
..Iron golems can't run, d00d.

Where's it say that? The entry for nonabilities- Constitution says that unless the monster entry says otherwise, something with a non-score in Constitution does not tire and can run as much as it wants. Nothing in either the Construct type or the Golem entries says they can't run (it says how they walk, which implies that they would run very awkwardly, but not that they can't run at all.)

Jack_Simth
2008-02-03, 09:35 AM
Where's it say that? The entry for nonabilities- Constitution says that unless the monster entry says otherwise, something with a non-score in Constitution does not tire and can run as much as it wants. Nothing in either the Construct type or the Golem entries says they can't run (it says how they walk, which implies that they would run very awkwardly, but not that they can't run at all.)
The "no running" thing is from previous editions - you won't find it in 3.5. Someone who's played several different editions, or was trained under a DM who has, is liable to get that bit of rules confusion. Sort of like the people who still call a Wizard's spell preparation "memorization".

Curmudgeon
2008-02-03, 10:31 AM
Sure, but in this case the usual rule is that it's immune because it's a spell that allows spell resistance. "In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below." What? My level 1 core Wizard scenario involved the non-core spell Lesser Orb of Electricity, which Jack_Simth, CASTLEMIKE, and Collin152 all complained about. If you check pages 150-151 of Spell Compendium you'll see that this spell has
Spell Resistance: No Since the golem's magic immunity is basically infinite spell resistance, Lesser Orb of Electricity functions normally.

The Orb line is in Complete Arcane, not the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, or Dungeon Master's Guide. Actually, you're out of date. The most recent revision, superseding Complete Arcane, is in Spell Compendium. And so what? I already pointed out that the OP asked
What's the lowest level core wizard to defeat an Iron golem? This is "core wizard", dude. Not "wizard using core spells". My solution for a level 1 wizard is strictly core: no alternative class features from any non-core source. You've got to pay attention to the actual questions asked, not your interpretation of what you think they might have meant.
Very clever but I disagree since the spell and the wand of Lesser Orb of Electricity do not exist in core... Nobody pays attention, it seems. :smallannoyed:
Another game default is no PC having any item comprising more than a quarter of his suggested wealth by level Actually that's merely a suggestion, not a rule. See "Magic Items as Gear", DMG page 199. It basically says "You're free to limit what magic items characters can choose" and uses one-quarter total wealth as an example.

Also see the "Wealth Comparisons" table (DMG page 54) which shows that a 1st level adventurer should expect to have 1,000 gp of treasure pass through their hands, beyond their starting gp.

Arbitrarity
2008-02-03, 10:33 AM
Hm. The better question is, how much XP can a level 5 wizard get from the iron golem. 24000 ish? Too bad you can't level multiple times.

Therefore, I say 7'th, as it is the lowest level where XP isn't wasted from the kill. It also has enough cash for items like wands of lightning bolt, it has fly, and it has solid fog.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-03, 10:48 AM
Actually, you're out of date. The most recent revision, superseding Complete Arcane, is in Spell Compendium.
Still a non-core spell.

And so what? I already pointed out that the OP asked This is "core wizard", dude. Not "wizard using core spells". My solution for a level 1 wizard is strictly core: no alternative class features from any non-core source. You've got to pay attention to the actual questions asked, not your interpretation of what you think they might have meant.
I'd ask ED his intent, but he appears to have a slight habit of posting then watching - as evidenced by this thread, even - he made the OP, and hasn't posted in this thread since.

As for specific terminology, I might point out that language is primarily a group construct, not an individual one (with a small handful of exceptions for manufactured languages, such as Esperanto), and you've had three or four people say what amounts to "that's not a core wizard" when you're basically the only one defending your interpretation. Seriously - mechanically, 80 or 90% of a wizard build is the Wizard's spell selection.

Curmudgeon
2008-02-03, 11:13 AM
Still a non-core spell.

... you've had three or four people say what amounts to "that's not a core wizard" when you're basically the only one defending your interpretation. Oh, I get the point; and maybe that is what the OP meant. If so, it's a relevant consideration.

What bugs me is the tendency on this forum to post without having read further in the thread to see if an issue has been discussed, and it irks me that I'd already responded on this matter before either you or CASTLEMIKE raised it, again and again. :smallsigh:

Emperor Demonking
2008-02-03, 11:29 AM
He meant core spells.

Middle Snu
2008-02-03, 12:59 PM
Whatever happened to good, old-fashioned ingenuity?

Level 1 Wizard, Starting Gold

Step 1: Sell your spellbook
Step 2: Hire people to dig a large pit trap for you. Make it at least 50' deep (or so).
Step 3: Induce the Iron Golem to walk over your covered pit trap. Laugh as it falls in.
Step 4: Drop large hunks of iron on the Golem until it dies.

shaggz076
2008-02-03, 01:30 PM
Technically you just need a level one wizard with the cosmopolitan feat and Handle animal. You use your skill to train a half dozen Rust monsters and train them to attack and heal. You keep them from eating the parties metal items and you sic them on the smorgasborg in front of them. The iron golems ref is only +3 and it has to beat a DC 17 or lose 10 cubic ft of it's body (most likely it's legs first as they are closest to the rust monsters. It would be a metter of 1 or two rounds and the thing would be destroyed.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 01:32 PM
What? My level 1 core Wizard scenario involved the non-core spell Lesser Orb of Electricity, which Jack_Simth, CASTLEMIKE, and Collin152 all complained about. If you check pages 150-151 of Spell Compendium you'll see that this spell has Since the golem's magic immunity is basically infinite spell resistance, Lesser Orb of Electricity functions normally.
Actually, you're out of date. The most recent revision, superseding Complete Arcane, is in Spell Compendium. And so what? I already pointed out that the OP asked This is "core wizard", dude. Not "wizard using core spells". My solution for a level 1 wizard is strictly core: no alternative class features from any non-core source. You've got to pay attention to the actual questions asked, not your interpretation of what you think they might have meant. Nobody pays attention, it seems. :smallannoyed: Actually that's merely a suggestion, not a rule. See "Magic Items as Gear", DMG page 199. It basically says "You're free to limit what magic items characters can choose" and uses one-quarter total wealth as an example.

Also see the "Wealth Comparisons" table (DMG page 54) which shows that a 1st level adventurer should expect to have 1,000 gp of treasure pass through their hands, beyond their starting gp.


I wasn't beating a dead horse this is my third post in the thread. I'm not the only Red Wizard in this thread or the only person to take an issue with the spell under the thread "core" wizard limitations.

See DMG page 135 Table 5-1 Character Wealth by Level L2 PC 900 gp wealth.

What the DMG says on page 199 is:

MAGIC ITEMS AS GEAR
You're free to limit what magic items characters can choose when they create characters of higher levels, just as if you were assinging those items to treasure hoards in the game. You can exercise an item-by-item veto, but an easier method is to use maximum cost for a single item as a limit. For example an 8th level character has 27,000 gp to spend, you can limit him to owning no single item worth more than one-quarter of that or 5,600 gp. This is a good way to prevent imbalance such as the 8th level fighter with hardly a copper piece to his name who is armed with a nine lives stealer.

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IMO the best way to take down the Iron golem below L5 quickly and consistently in variable locales in most games controlled by the DM (who usually doesn't place them in extremely long corridors, outdoors or in extremely large or open spaces designed to nerf the golem abilities by keeping him at bay moving or flying overhead) and not the PC without limiting the PC to using personal spellcasting ability only which also depends on how the suggested wealth by level is used in the game.

Below L5 spellcasting:

An already cast Shrink Item scroll 375 gp of a Pool of Burning Oil (1,000 flasks at 1sp for 100 gp (I'm sure a PC can get by with less (partly game dependent) but I prefer a little overkill at this level and depending on the game more than 1 might be needed).

Lightning Bolt scroll 375 gp (Can probably get by without this spell but nice if encountered on foot in a small locale and the PC can't fly)

Backup Scroll of True Strike with 1 charge 12.5 gp (PC wizard with the Scribe Scroll feat and the spell in his spell book)

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Below level 3 Alter Self from a Scroll 150 gp (For flying above the Iron golem safely out of reach before attacking if that possibility should arise (this spell will probably be saved for another future adventure with most DM Iron golem encounters)

Important memorized core spells:

L1+ Grease, True Strike and others to taste.

L3+ Alter Self for flying with wings to keep out of range of the golem

L5+ Lightning Bolt, (Shrink Item known but already cast the day before on the burnig oil) others to personal taste like Flying

Non Core spells like the Electric Jolt cantrip & SC has a range of 25' + 5ft/2 levels the same range as the L1 Lesser Orb of Electicity SC which is another nice spell.

The L2 Gedlee's Electric Loop spell MoF & PGtF would be nice for dealing with Iron golems also.

I'm sure there are plenty of other great non core spell options.

Curmudgeon
2008-02-03, 01:59 PM
Below level 3 Alter Self from a Scroll 150 gp (For flying above the Iron golem safely out of reach before attacking) Shouldn't you include the LA for your Wizard's race here? There are no core humanoid races with flight, so Alter Self won't grant a fly speed unless you're a non-standard race. I think an Aasimar at LA +1 is the best bet from the core books if you want to be able to fly with Alter Self.

We're working with an incomplete specification of "core wizard" here -- maybe it means just PH races. ???

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 02:06 PM
Shouldn't you include the LA for your Wizard's race here? There are no core humanoid races with flight, so Alter Self won't grant a fly speed unless you're a non-standard race. I think an Aasimar at LA +1 is the best bet from the core books if you want to be able to fly with Alter Self.

We're working with an incomplete specification of "core wizard" here -- maybe it means just PH races. ???

So am I. Any Non LA core race using the Alter Self spell can fly. The spell was mentioned in the post.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm


You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

Arbitrarity
2008-02-03, 02:08 PM
What CORE? Humanoids can fly? If the wizard can't use non-core spells, he surely can't use non-core races! So what humanoid in your MM flies? None of them!

shaggz076
2008-02-03, 02:12 PM
What CORE? Humanoids can fly? If the wizard can't use non-core spells, he surely can't use non-core races! So what humanoid in your MM flies? None of them!

Umm... Gargoyle.... Half Celestial... Half Dragon... Half Fiend... Harpy...

Arbitrarity
2008-02-03, 02:23 PM
Tell me. How many of those are humanoid, and how many have 5 or less HD?

Gargoyle: Monstrous humanoid: Fails.

All those "half-x" outsider or dragon type. FAIL.

Harpy: Monstrous Humanoid, 7HD: FAIL!

As you look through your monster manual, you may eventually come to notice that humanoids in core don't have wings. You may also note this line in Alter Self:
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form

Jack_Simth
2008-02-03, 02:23 PM
Umm... Gargoyle.... Half Celestial... Half Dragon... Half Fiend... Harpy...

Alter Self

Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.(Emphasis added)

Gargoyle, Harpy: Monsterous Humanoids - not your type (Humanoid), not permitted.
Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, Half-Dragon: Templates, not permitted.

shaggz076
2008-02-03, 02:26 PM
(Emphasis added)

Gargoyle, Harpy: Monsterous Humanoids - not your type (Humanoid), not permitted.
Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, Half-Dragon: Templates, not permitted.

Well with your emphasis added. You posted the entire spell and it doesn't restrict you that much, a monsterous humanoid is still a humanoid.. as such you can still take its form. so as you have it posted you fail... again.

Jack Zander
2008-02-03, 02:37 PM
Well with your emphasis added. You posted the entire spell and it doesn't restrict you that much, a monsterous humanoid is still a humanoid.. as such you can still take its form. so as you have it posted you fail... again.

No... it isn't (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/typesSubtypes.htm)... sorry, but EPIC PH4IL.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 02:39 PM
What CORE? Humanoids can fly? If the wizard can't use non-core spells, he surely can't use non-core races! So what humanoid in your MM flies? None of them!

Alter Self is a personal range spell.

Typical "core" wizards normally have familiars who are magical beasts which their Master's may cast Personal range spells.

Edit: IMO the best method under Core/SRD limitations is to use the SRD variant and swap out a familiar for a medium or large sized animal companion:

Sorcerer/Wizard
A sorcerer or wizard might desire a more durable companion to accompany him on excursions into the wilderness.
Gain
Animal companion (as druid; treat sorcerer or wizard as a druid of half his class level).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard

Simply change your familiar into a Pegasus (Large) or other flying magical beast of 5HD or less and get on them and fly.

Theli
2008-02-03, 02:42 PM
Indeed...if monstrous humanoids qualified just because they had a humanoid shape then that opens the floodgates WIDE open.

There are a lot of different types that can obtain a humanoid form. I doubt that alter self is intended to let you become a really young dragon, for instance.

Arbitrarity
2008-02-03, 02:45 PM
Hm. Good point, I'll look at that one. First of all: Do we have a magical beast with 5 or fewer HD that can carry a wizard? If it can't carry the wizard, as soon as it moves 5 ft away, it becomes normal again.

Secondly: Is the creature carrying the wizard of small to diminuative size? Alter self only allows 1 size shift, and there are no medium familiars, nor small.

So, a small, 5 HD or less, magical, flying beast. That can carry a wizard. Can you find one? I haven't checked yet.

EDIT: Pegasus is large, doesn't work. In fact, can anything small really carry a medium wizard while flying?

shaggz076
2008-02-03, 02:48 PM
Indeed...if monstrous humanoids qualified just because they had a humanoid shape then that opens the floodgates WIDE open.

There are a lot of different types that can obtain a humanoid form. I doubt that alter self is intended to let you become a really young dragon, for instance.

This I agree with but the Monsterous Humanoid is still in essence a Humanoid or it wouldn't have "Humanoid" as part of it's name. Dragon, to use your example doesn't give "Humanoid as part of its type. In the link Jack provided it even says "Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well." So why wouldn't you be able to alter yourself into a Gargoyle? It is still "Humanoid" It would be different if it were say a Construct or Magiacal beast but it isn't.

Theli
2008-02-03, 02:49 PM
Perhaps a possible solution would be to make the wizard a halfling or a gnome? :p

Jack Zander
2008-02-03, 02:50 PM
This I agree with but the Monsterous Humanoid is still in essence a Humanoid or it wouldn't have "Humanoid" as part of it's name. Dragon, to use your example doesn't give "Humanoid as part of its type. In the link Jack provided it even says "Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well." So why wouldn't you be able to alter yourself into a Gargoyle? It is still "Humanoid" It would be different if it were say a Construct or Magiacal beast but it isn't.

Because they are two separate distinct types. Otherwise monstrous humanoids would simply be humanoids with the (monstrous) subtype.

Arbitrarity
2008-02-03, 02:52 PM
Theli, still, can you find a small, 5HD flying magical beast?

Shaggz, types are clearly defined. A monstrous humanoid is NOT the same type as a humanoid. Therefore, the qualifier of being the same type as your original form is not fulfilled, thus making monstrous humanoids invalid forms.

Theli
2008-02-03, 03:19 PM
Nope, it doesn't look like there's anything that would work...

But what you CAN do is use reduce person on yourself and have the familiar be, or change into, an eagle. :p

So if you were a halfling or gnome, your new size would be tiny... The eagle is a flying small size creature.

The only problem is that reduce person has a minute per level duration...BUT it can be made permanent... :p

Chronos
2008-02-03, 03:47 PM
My solution for a level 1 wizard is strictly core: no alternative class features from any non-core source.One of the wizard's class features is spellcasting. If he's casting a non-core spell, then he's using a non-core class feature.


The only problem is that reduce person has a minute per level duration...BUT it can be made permanent... :pBut not by a first-level caster.

Theli
2008-02-03, 03:50 PM
Wasn't aware the the wizard had to be level 1...or was unable to procure a scroll of permanency.

Anyway, even alter self can only go up to 1 HD at first level... That's heavily restrictive.

(Besides being a 2nd level spell...a first level wizard would require a scroll to cast it. But then you'd at least get 3 HD.)

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 03:53 PM
Hm. Good point, I'll look at that one. First of all: Do we have a magical beast with 5 or fewer HD that can carry a wizard? If it can't carry the wizard, as soon as it moves 5 ft away, it becomes normal again.

Secondly: Is the creature carrying the wizard of small to diminuative size? Alter self only allows 1 size shift, and there are no medium familiars, nor small.

So, a small, 5 HD or less, magical, flying beast. That can carry a wizard. Can you find one? I haven't checked yet.

EDIT: Pegasus is large, doesn't work. In fact, can anything small really carry a medium wizard while flying?

Didn't mean to get everyone fired up.

It is workable under Core/SRD using a variant:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard

Sorcerer/Wizard
A sorcerer or wizard might desire a more durable companion to accompany him on excursions into the wilderness.

Gain
Animal companion (as druid; treat sorcerer or wizard as a druid of half his class level).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion

Probably want a Medium or Large Animal companion for the trick.

Collin152
2008-02-03, 04:02 PM
But not by a first-level caster.

Title just says "Lowest Level".

Warreck
2008-02-03, 04:21 PM
What's the lowest level core wizard to defeat an Iron golem?

If any race from Core books is fine, then level 1 Ogre Mage
(for Fly at will) and a number of acid flasks. Pewpew. :smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2008-02-03, 04:33 PM
Ah, good point. Still, if you're high enough level to cast Permanancy, you're also high enough level to get access to a bunch of other methods of flight (Overland Flight, magic items with flight, Polymorph, buying a trained hippogriph, etc.).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 04:48 PM
If any race from Core books is fine, then level 1 Ogre Mage
(for Fly at will) and a number of acid flasks. Pewpew. :smallbiggrin:

A Ogre Magi Wizard 1 is ECL 13 according to core with +7 LA on top of 5 HD.

Using Savage Species to pick up flying isn't possible until Ogremage level 4 (of 12) with a level of wizard that would be a level 5 PC.

DEFCON Clown
2008-02-03, 04:54 PM
Defeat or destroy with magic? Because if its destroy then a 1st level character can do it if the player is creative enough.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 05:13 PM
Defeat or destroy with magic? Because if its destroy then a 1st level character can do it if the player is creative enough.

Sure it is doable theoretically particularly if the Iron golem stays in the same spot or is environmentally limited but some plans will implement far easier and more effectively than others and require quite a few less questionable factors like time constraints, digging a big hole, hiding it and tricking the Iron golem into following and falling into the trap so it can be burned with flaming oil.

An Iron Golem costs 150,000 gp to make with Int - 0 and Wis - 11.

It only costs 1,000 gp to give it basic intelligence Int-12
It only costs 4,000 gp to give it Int-14 and speech

What if a DM is just a little creative and gives it basic intelligence for a more interesting encounter? (Personally I find those the most rewarding games since they really challenge the PCs)

What if the DM puts it in a small space to minimize PC movement options?

What if the DM gives it a few useful magic items (Party treasure) to address it's most common weaknesses:

Ring of Energy Resistance Electricity at 12,000 gp 10 points of electrical energy resistance negating many low level electrical attacks. If not slowed by a low level attack that can be the single mistake PC killer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

An Iron golem is a CR 13 glass canon when the PCs know exactly what they are dealing with from the get go and are allowed to prepare.

The easiest way for the DM to make the encounter challenging, interesting and memorable for a 150,000 gp construct is to give it 8,000 - 15,000 gp in personal magic items:

Hat of Disguise is really great at 1,800 gp for general value to utility.

Intelligence - 12 at 1,000 gp.

Some Potions like Endure Elements, Energy Resistance, Mirror Images, Flying

Boots of Striding and Springing 5,500 gp +10 Movement so now it moves as fast as most characters which can be a Major surprise to PCs particularly a single PC.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Iron golem can use the Hat of Disguise so it looks like a Dwarf or another creature that has a weakness to Magical Fire attacks like a Frost Giant or a White Dragon (Apparent Flying ability so most wizards won't take flight now) so the PCs don't know they are fighting an Iron golem initially (SU) Poisonous Gas Breath attack comes into play now.

Consider how a simple 50 gp potion of Endure Elements would really mess up most of these plans.

RoboticSheeple
2008-02-03, 05:45 PM
1, because this the OPs question put no restrictions there will be a way somehow, it doesn't matter what it is. But what does that matter?

Chronos
2008-02-03, 05:55 PM
It only costs 1,000 gp to give it basic intelligence Int-12
It only costs 4,000 gp to give it Int-14 and speechWhere are these rules from?

mostlyharmful
2008-02-03, 06:01 PM
Where are these rules from?

Adding intelligence to items in the DMG.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 06:05 PM
1, because this the OPs question put no restrictions there will be a way somehow, it doesn't matter what it is. But what does that matter?

There are lots of ways some already addressed in the thread. It only matters in a game context. The OP limited the plan to Core material and some plans will implement better than others for PCs in different games since not all games fully incorporate all RAW. How is posting a creative level 1 PC should be able to do it helpful to the OP without a little more information regarding some kind of basic strategy?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 06:06 PM
Where are these rules from?

Page 269 DMG and the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm

Jack Zander
2008-02-03, 06:43 PM
Adding intelligence to items in the DMG.

I wasn't aware that golems were magic items.

Regardless, it is an interesting idea for a DM to use, even if slightly cheesy.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 07:34 PM
I wasn't aware that golems were magic items.

Regardless, it is an interesting idea for a DM to use, even if slightly cheesy.

Craft Construct [Item Creation]
Prerequisites
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes the DMs need a little slice of cheese with all the extra cheese the PCs have to keep the game challenging, fun and interesting.

Chronos
2008-02-03, 07:45 PM
I wasn't aware that golems were magic items.It had never occurred to me to apply those rules to a golem, but now that it's pointed out, I can't see any reason it wouldn't work. Constructs are created in the same way as magical items (Craft Construct is an item creation feat), and intelligent magic items are all technically constructs. Well-played, to whomever thought of that.

Sebastian
2008-02-04, 05:07 AM
Keep in mind that thrown weapons can only get out to five range increments; that's 50 feet away for the oil flasks, and you're taking a -10 to hit at that range. If the Golem ever gets within 10 feet of you, it can poison you. That means you have to be more than 90 feet away (80 foot Run action + 10 foot cube of poison) on the golem's turn in order to be safe,

Wait, golems can run?


You'll need plenty of flasks, and a good ranged attack modifier. Plus it's problematic to prepare more than one flask in advance: there's only a small bit of oil in the fuse itself, and that starts burning off as soon as you light it. If you don't break the sealed flask quickly, the fuse oil will be exhausted and you'll need to repeat the preparation.
Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.


Yes, but even if don't ignite and hit the golem the flask will always break an the golem will be covered in oil, what would happen then if the golem was already burning from a previous flask? or if a flask in the next round succesfully ignite? IMHO even the unignited flanks would still count for damage as long as they hit the golem, or even the floor under it.
actually you could just just pour all the oil of , let's say 100 flasks, in a square on the ground and turn it on when the golem walk on it.

and yes, there is a strong penalty but it is still just a touch attack, in the long run is the most convenient tactic.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-04, 07:04 AM
Wait, golems can run?

Constitution: Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).(Emphasis added)

Nothing in the golem's entry, for 3.5, specifies that it can't run.

As it has no Constitution, it can run until something kills it (which is liable to be a while).


It had never occurred to me to apply those rules to a golem, but now that it's pointed out, I can't see any reason it wouldn't work. Constructs are created in the same way as magical items (Craft Construct is an item creation feat), and intelligent magic items are all technically constructs. Well-played, to whomever thought of that.
The biggest benefit of granting your golems intelligence is that they now have feats and skills based on their hit dice - that Greater Stone Golem you crafted with minimum intelligence (10 or 11, meh) now has 90 skill points and 14 feats to play with... and it just cost you an extra 1,000 gp (well, a little more, as it gets a minor power to go with it). Give it, say, Power Attack, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword), Armor Proficiency(Light), Armor Proficiency(Medium) and Armor Proficiency(Heavy),.... and you've still got a zillion to work with...

Indon
2008-02-04, 10:01 AM
The problem with trying to run from a golem with a base speed of 30 is that you need to run to get ahead of it (as the Golem runs 80). As such, you might tire out, which is why my build included a level of Barbarian.

Theli
2008-02-04, 10:05 AM
Hmm, something doesn't seem right with the idea of an intelligent item golem... I don't believe its actually explicitly stated anywhere that intelligent items can be crafted according to the given rules.

Sure, it may have given cash amounts for the various levels of intelligent items, but that may be solely for pricing purposes. And not for crafting...

It's especially off if you really can get an intelligent item with so many capabilities for so cheap. This suggests that these things were never intended to be crafted by the player.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-04, 01:50 PM
Hmm, something doesn't seem right with the idea of an intelligent item golem... I don't believe its actually explicitly stated anywhere that intelligent items can be crafted according to the given rules.

Sure, it may have given cash amounts for the various levels of intelligent items, but that may be solely for pricing purposes. And not for crafting...

It's especially off if you really can get an intelligent item with so many capabilities for so cheap. This suggests that these things were never intended to be crafted by the player.

I disagree and have posted several times regarding this. The listed crafting feats are included in this post below along with the intelligent item crafting rules. IMO it's especially off to have a 150,000 gp glass canon that can be taken out by a wizard - 5 just using spellcasting with a day or so to prepare.

Craft Construct [Item Creation]
Prerequisites
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item.

Intelligent magic items:
Page 269 DMG and the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...igentItems.htm

P.S. just because you give the item intelligence for 1,000 gp doesn't mean you have to give it a power but if a requirement in a game there are powers as inexpensive as +1,100 gp.

GoC
2008-02-04, 04:45 PM
Hmm, something doesn't seem right with the idea of an intelligent item golem... I don't believe its actually explicitly stated anywhere that intelligent items can be crafted according to the given rules.

Sure, it may have given cash amounts for the various levels of intelligent items, but that may be solely for pricing purposes. And not for crafting...

It's especially off if you really can get an intelligent item with so many capabilities for so cheap. This suggests that these things were never intended to be crafted by the player.

I'd like to point out that there's a spell called Awaken Construct which (after you pass a willsave) gives a construct 3d6 Int and all the skills and feats. There is unfortunately no Awaken Item spell though.

Chronos
2008-02-04, 05:08 PM
I'd like to point out that there's a spell called Awaken Construct which (after you pass a willsave) gives a construct 3d6 Int and all the skills and feats....Which, ironically, can't be used on golems, since it's Spell Resistance: Yes. At least, depending on how you rule on the golem's spell immunity: It's a matter of some debate whether a golem can voluntarily lower its immunity.

Indon
2008-02-04, 05:39 PM
...Which, ironically, can't be used on golems, since it's Spell Resistance: Yes. At least, depending on how you rule on the golem's spell immunity: It's a matter of some debate whether a golem can voluntarily lower its immunity.

I take it it's not a matter of intelligence, but instead a matter of spell immunity being subtly different than standard spell resistance?

Jack_Simth
2008-02-04, 06:35 PM
I'd like to point out that there's a spell called Awaken Construct which (after you pass a willsave) gives a construct 3d6 Int and all the skills and feats. There is unfortunately no Awaken Item spell though.

Yes, but that also strips it of it's Magic Immunity (if it has it), and frees it from it's master's control - which isn't generally what you want if you're making one.

Theli
2008-02-04, 07:17 PM
I disagree and have posted several times regarding this. The listed crafting feats are included in this post below along with the intelligent item crafting rules. IMO it's especially off to have a 150,000 gp glass canon that can be taken out by a wizard - 5 just using spellcasting with a day or so to prepare.

You're talking about a wizard here. Assuming they have the right spells, a 150,000 gp ANYTHING would probably be taken out. So I don't really get your point.



Craft Construct [Item Creation]
Prerequisites
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item.

Intelligent magic items:
Page 269 DMG and the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...igentItems.htm

P.S. just because you give the item intelligence for 1,000 gp doesn't mean you have to give it a power but if a requirement in a game there are powers as inexpensive as +1,100 gp.

That link is broken. Referencing that section of the DMG says nothing about players being able to craft these things. In fact, the only reference towards creating them is with regard to DMs rolling on the provided tables.

Players are not meant to have the capability to custom craft intelligent items for their own personal ends. It is against both RAW and RAI. However, if you want to houserule it, then by all means. Knock yourself out.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-04, 08:14 PM
You're talking about a wizard here. Assuming they have the right spells, a 150,000 gp ANYTHING would probably be taken out. So I don't really get your point.

Players are not meant to have the capability to custom craft intelligent items for their own personal ends. It is against both RAW and RAI. However, if you want to houserule it, then by all means. Knock yourself out.

No Wizards cannot do ANYTHING in game unless they are playing by themselves and making up rules as they go along. I really dislike that assumption in game regarding wizards since I cannot think of a single game where that statement would actually be TRUE with a simple statement reality test being to take and try to do anything with a wizard in a few DM games and the boards to quickly disprove that premise. It does not apply to all games so it is incorrect.

I understand you don't get my point.

First an Iron Golem is supposed to be a CR 13 encounter for a party. I can take one down consistently with a L5 wizard who is allowed to prepare for the sincle encounter basically in a duel just utilizing the correct spells because I can analyze it's strength and weaknesses in the Monster Manual or SRD as a player without my PC needing to make in game knowledge checks a classic example of Player Knowledge versus PC knowledge (Life doesn't come with a rule book).

Second that would be a very odd way to encounter an Iron Golem in game the lone Wizard - 5 with no encounters there or back with a 150,000 gp canon probably guarding a significant treasure in a very large space to maintain distance from the breath weapon with lots of overhead for flying or always in the same room waiting.

Third it is an unusal game where a wizard particularly a NPC wizard with less wealth than a PC normally would spend it on a glass canon without shoring up the basic weaknesses and design flaws with their superior genius intellects negating most of the low level wizard take out strategies.

1,000 gp gives it intelligence (it already had a decent wisdom)

A Hat of Disguise lets it look like something else.

A Potion of Endure Elements negates non CR appropiate attack strategies at best elevating the CR +1 from 13 to 14 for very little cost to the owner and paid for the first time some low level one shot wonder miscalculates.

You are mistaken regarding your second point and should reread the DMG regarding intelligent item crafting requirements. The crafting feats exist in game specifically for that purpose if a PC wants to take them that is up to their DM to decide.

Iron Golem:
This golem has a humanoid body made from iron. An iron golem can be FASHIONED in any manner, just like a stone golem (see below), although it almost always displays armor of some sort. Its features are much smoother than those of a stone golem. Iron golems sometimes carry a short sword in one hand. An iron golem is 12 feet tall and weighs about 5,000 pounds. An iron golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise, nor does it have any distinguishable odor. It moves with a ponderous but smooth gait. Each step causes the floor to tremble unless it is on a thick, solid foundation.

Construction
An iron golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 150,000 gp; Cost 80,000 gp + 5,600 XP.

tyckspoon
2008-02-04, 08:21 PM
I understand you don't get my point.

First an Iron Golem is supposed to be a CR 13 encounter for a party. I can take one down consistently with a L5 wizard who is allowed to prepare for the sincle encounter basically in a duel just utilizing the correct spells because I can analyze it's strength and weaknesses in the Monster Manual or SRD as a player without my PC needing to make in game knowledge checks a classic example of Player Knowledge versus PC knowledge (Life doesn't come with a rule book).


..yes. It's ZOMG abusive metagaming that a big chunk of iron probably doesn't fly. :smallconfused: The monster designers didn't think three-dimensionally. Players really aren't doing anything wrong when they score easy wins by taking advantage of an extra axis of movement that the monster can't use. Just like burrowing monsters aren't doing anything wrong when they eat PCs from underneath.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-04, 08:24 PM
..yes. It's ZOMG abusive metagaming that a big chunk of iron probably doesn't fly. :smallconfused: The monster designers didn't think three-dimensionally. Players really aren't doing anything wrong when they score easy wins by taking advantage of an extra axis of movement that the monster can't use. Just like burrowing monsters aren't doing anything wrong when they eat PCs from underneath.

It depends on what you classify as an easy win. I would be prepared for flying but not really expect it as an option. Wrapping it around a rock (Possibly using True Strike) maybe several times depending on how the damage would work in the campaign.

I have expectations of where I would expect to normally an encounter an Iron Golem most of the time. (Not in a huge room for running around, Not with lots of room to fly over it, Not in super long corridors, Generally not out in the open unless they are intelligent, Not patiently waiting to be destroyed in the same room encounter after encounter, Hidden in plain sight so they can use their breath attack) In most games DMs are not really trying to kill their PCs so the DMs aren't doing anything wrong either by making encounters challenging for the PCs and addressing design flaws.

Chronos
2008-02-04, 09:28 PM
You are mistaken regarding your second point and should reread the DMG regarding intelligent item crafting requirements. The crafting feats exist in game specifically for that purpose if a PC wants to take them that is up to their DM to decide.Nobody's disputing that a wizard, including a PC, can make an iron golem (with the right feats and monetary expenditures). The question for debate is whether a character can deliberately make an intelligent magic item. One might argue, for instance, that intelligent items only ever arise accidentally, and nobody's sure how to reliably make them. In this case, the gold prices listed would be relevant if one happened to get one and wanted to sell it, but would not necessarily imply that one could make an item intelligent just by paying some gold.

Theli
2008-02-04, 10:39 PM
No Wizards cannot do ANYTHING in game unless they are playing by themselves and making up rules as they go along. I really dislike that assumption in game regarding wizards since I cannot think of a single game where that statement would actually be TRUE with a simple statement reality test being to take and try to do anything with a wizard in a few DM games and the boards to quickly disprove that premise. It does not apply to all games so it is incorrect.

There is a reason why this assumption of power exists. A number of arcane spells, especially including core, are simply broken, even with a restrictive RAW.

The whole idea that a lvl 5 character can more or less easily destroy a CR 13 encounter by themselves only serves to illustrate this.

What it does not do is create justification for improving that CR 13 encounter by itself.



I understand you don't get my point.

First an Iron Golem is supposed to be a CR 13 encounter for a party. I can take one down consistently with a L5 wizard who is allowed to prepare for the sincle encounter basically in a duel just utilizing the correct spells because I can analyze it's strength and weaknesses in the Monster Manual or SRD as a player without my PC needing to make in game knowledge checks a classic example of Player Knowledge versus PC knowledge (Life doesn't come with a rule book).

A lot of suggested encounters (straight from the MM1) show such weaknesses, don't they? It seems that the golem is unique only because you can put a price tag on it.



Second that would be a very odd way to encounter an Iron Golem in game the lone Wizard - 5 with no encounters there or back with a 150,000 gp canon probably guarding a significant treasure in a very large space to maintain distance from the breath weapon with lots of overhead for flying or always in the same room waiting.

So it actually it isn't so weak to always be easily downed by the typical lone wizard - 5 in its typical form? Isn't that what you just asserted and why it makes sense that you could spend extra cash improving it?



Third it is an unusal game where a wizard particularly a NPC wizard with less wealth than a PC normally would spend it on a glass canon without shoring up the basic weaknesses and design flaws with their superior genius intellects negating most of the low level wizard take out strategies.


Perhaps it's ok if the NPCs are sometimes foolish now and then? Perhaps the cash is only relevant for PCs who wish to have the similar power of golem? Perhaps not everything in DnD make sense from an economic point of view? Perhaps a "super intellect" doesn't always result in a strategic and tactical genius? (Talk about a fallacy of the power of wizards... No, you don't automatically get to think up of every possibility just because you have an 18+ Int.)



1,000 gp gives it intelligence (it already had a decent wisdom)

A Hat of Disguise lets it look like something else.

A Potion of Endure Elements negates non CR appropiate attack strategies at best elevating the CR +1 from 13 to 14 for very little cost to the owner and paid for the first time some low level one shot wonder miscalculates.

The hat...is just strange. But I can't find a fault in it, assuming that it can be commanded by the construct or is allowed to be commanded by someone/thing else.

The potion on the other hand is a different story. I'm not sure constructs are allows to use such consumables. They cannot eat. And they are not like living constructs, such as warforged, that seem to be given a special exception for the use of potions.



You are mistaken regarding your second point and should reread the DMG regarding intelligent item crafting requirements. The crafting feats exist in game specifically for that purpose if a PC wants to take them that is up to their DM to decide.

Iron Golem:
This golem has a humanoid body made from iron. An iron golem can be FASHIONED in any manner, just like a stone golem (see below), although it almost always displays armor of some sort. Its features are much smoother than those of a stone golem. Iron golems sometimes carry a short sword in one hand. An iron golem is 12 feet tall and weighs about 5,000 pounds. An iron golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise, nor does it have any distinguishable odor. It moves with a ponderous but smooth gait. Each step causes the floor to tremble unless it is on a thick, solid foundation.

Construction
An iron golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 150,000 gp; Cost 80,000 gp + 5,600 XP.


You know, it would have been so much easier if you just quoted the damn SRD on this. I actually did finally find the single paragraph which suggests that you could craft an intelligent item. But it's hard to believe. Where the hell is this paragraph in the core books? I still can't find it.

However, even the SRD version seems to have some restrictions:


Intelligent Item Creation
To create an intelligent item, a character must have a caster level of 15th or higher. Time and creation cost are based on the normal item creation rules, with the market price values on Table: Item Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Capabilities treated as additions to time, gp cost, and XP cost. The item’s alignment is the same as its creator’s. Determine other features randomly, following the guidelines in the relevant section.

Alignment is set, ok, no big deal. But then the "other features" are randomly selected... The hell?

So what, you can make an intelligent item, but have no control over the cost because in making it its features are entirely random? That's fun. (But I guess you're going to tell me that you can choose the cost, but the features it provides are random? Meh, questionable.)

Not only that, but this assumes that an intelligent item golem must have control over its movements and actions. I suppose that the creator can direct the golem to follow its "intelligent item" side though. So that gets around that issue.

So then...you still have to question why it is that the typical fantasy trope of the mindless golem comes to pass....

I would reiterate the suggestion that most npc golem creators actually don't make their golems into intelligent items. Why? Because they don't see a need to. It is only your status as a metagaming player which sees the, to you, glaringly obvious weaknesses of the golem. And with proper construction of the creator's home, the guardian golem can still be a force to be reckoned with, by your own admission.

NPCs simply DON'T do the obvious thing from a metagame point of view. Golems have classic strengths and vulnerabilities for a reason. And that is because DnD is a game of classic fantasy.

If you, as a DM, want to get around this, then so be it. If you, as a player, want to get around this, then you have to justify it to your DM.

I believe its fully in his/her rights to rule that you, as a character, simply wouldn't do such a thing. While as a player you can see that it simply wouldn't backfire on you because you are able to interpret the entire scope of the magic item creation rules, perhaps as the character it may not make the most sense to give a hulking brute with resistance to most magic the gift of intelligence.

I have just one more thing to add. If such a thing as adding intelligent item properties to a golem makes so much sense, why not do so for several flesh golems instead? They are so much cheaper and with the right kind of luck you can make an extremely tough army with very useful powers.

Is it because the flesh golem can go berserk? That seems to me to be a very particular kind of metagaming that's especially offensive. You want the perfect servant...then balk at the price...then look to methods to cover its implicit weaknesses.

But again, it's up to you and your DM, with regards to the kind of campaign he/she wants to run. (You seem to be especially adamant about this. Perhaps you've had occasion to argue with a DM in order to push this for your wizard? If so, for SHAME!)

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-05, 12:46 AM
Sure some spells can be broken in game but that should be an easy fix in most games by a DM who has lots of options to deal with that issue if he believes there is a problem in his game not a cop out.

I like the game and I like this thread and others like it. They are nice exercises in logic and tactics because you get to see how other players utilize the existing rules and pick up a few points for whatever PC type you like playing but most DMs don't run the encounter as a solo duel to minimize the creature options and maximize the PC options.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm


Cl 15 requirement for intelligent item crafting is less than CL 16 to make an Iron Golem in the first place. It isn't like I had them reversed so I fail to see why it is an issue.

Regarding the "random" nature and capablilites of intelligent items IMO that refers to the fact that there are 8 levels of intelligence and senses a crafter can give his items each with a different base price modifier to the magic item. These eight levels have various numbers of lesser, greater or special powers normally associated with the intelligence taken from several power lists in the DMG/SRD with asigned magical item base cost modifiers for each power. Kind of like Burger King the crafter can have it his way they don't all have to be the same.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-05, 12:56 AM
Nobody's disputing that a wizard, including a PC, can make an iron golem (with the right feats and monetary expenditures). The question for debate is whether a character can deliberately make an intelligent magic item. One might argue, for instance, that intelligent items only ever arise accidentally, and nobody's sure how to reliably make them. In this case, the gold prices listed would be relevant if one happened to get one and wanted to sell it, but would not necessarily imply that one could make an item intelligent just by paying some gold.


Someone could argue that since 1% of all magic items are intelligent but Theli found it:


Intelligent Item Creation
To create an intelligent item, a character must have a caster level of 15th or higher. Time and creation cost are based on the normal item creation rules, with the market price values on Table: Item Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Capabilities treated as additions to time, gp cost, and XP cost. The item’s alignment is the same as its creator’s. Determine other features randomly, following the guidelines in the relevant section.

Theli
2008-02-05, 01:32 AM
I still wanna know where the hell in the core rulebooks that rule is. I just can't find it.

Is this an SRD only thing? That's kinda ridiculous if so.

Cuddly
2008-02-05, 01:41 AM
Wizard 1. Sell Spellbook. Get wand of grease and adamantine arrows. Go to town.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-05, 02:02 AM
I still wanna know where the hell in the core rulebooks that rule is. I just can't find it.

Is this an SRD only thing? That's kinda ridiculous if so.

Page 288 of the DMG

Theli
2008-02-05, 02:29 AM
Wizard 1. Sell Spellbook. Get wand of grease and adamantine arrows. Go to town.

Hmm...


Let's assume the wizard, a non-specialist starts with 16-17 Int. That means they start with 6 1st level spells. And they start with all cantrips known... lets stick to core to calculate that at 19 cantrips known... All of these spells would take a full page in the spell book. And the materials for writing a spell costs 100gp per page... so that's 2525gp for the value of the spellbook. (An empty spellbook costs 25gp.)

Split that in half to get 1262gp and 5 sp as the supposed sell price of the spell book.

No price is listed for a wand of grease, but let's suppose that the DM makes one available anyway and it costs as much as any other 1st level wand, so 750gp.

The heavy crossbow costs 50 gp.

So that's 462gp and 5 sp left. Adamantine bolts cost 60gp and 1 sp each. This gives you enough for only 7 bolts.

The maximum possible damage those 7 bolts could do is 70 damage, assuming they all hit for max.

I don't think the golem is worried.

1st objection: The wand doesn't have to have full charges.

Ok, let's, for the sake of argument, ignore the wand entirely. That's 1212gp and 5 sp that can go to purchasing bolts alone. Which results in 20 bolts. The max damage of 20 bolts is 200. The HP of the iron golem averages at 129hp. Not bad, the wizard might actually be able to do it. Let's examine how many of those attacks might miss...

Assume that the lvl 1 wizard has 14 dex. That means that the wizard has a total modifier of a +3 to their attack roll. (Adamantine weapons are always masterwork, this applies equally to bolts.)

So lessee what the AC for an iron golem is, hmm... 30. Yeah, a big three-oh... So the wizard is only hitting on a 20. (Let's not even figure grease into this as it would likely make the golem prone, which is +4 to its AC against ranged attacks.) And being masterwork weapons, they are ruined once used. (RAW determination. Don't ask me how it makes sense for adamantine bolts to be weaker than non-masterwork ones.)

Again, I don't think the golem is worried.


Well, that was a fun excursion into the land of nonsense. Maybe we should just make the determination that pages in a wizard's spellbook do not automatically increase its networth according to how much it costs to write them? That seems to be the only common sense determination and seems to work well as RAI. (Though... Who knows what the true value of a spellbook is? The Shadow knows!)


Woo! An old time radio and an Eberron reference all in one! Go me!

Theli
2008-02-05, 03:11 AM
Page 288 of the DMG

Hmm, ok...so let's say that this is feasible. The golem would then be of two minds. Both considered constructs. You have the golem's own owner-obeying mind. And then you have the intelligent item mind with its own special purpose. No mechanics exist for the golem to follow the intelligent item mind except that the golem can be directed to follow the guidance of another entity. This can be done to put the golem under the control of the more intelligent force.

However...that's still odd... How is the golem able to understand what the intelligent item wants it to do? With an intelligence non-ability, it is immune to mind-affecting effects. I'm pretty sure that telepathy would qualify as a mind-affecting effect. (As should empathy, assuming it can even function on the golem...it may not qualify as "possessor", being the object that it is imbued onto.) So then the intelligent item mind must speak to the golem in order to direct it...which isn't so bad. That bumps it up to at least 4000 gp.

Lemme just mention right now how horribly underpriced all this is! Moving on...


So what's the end result? There's an intelligent magical item which is capable of moving under its own volition. Now, it's going to share the creator's alignment, but how much loyalty is it really going to have?

From the DMG, pg. 269:

All powers function at the direction of the item, although intelligent items generally follow the wishes of their owner.

pg. 271

Items with personalities are never totally controlled or silenced by the characters who possess them, even though they may never successfully control their possessors.

I can't find anything about having absolute loyalty to the items creator, such as there is for the golem. And what constitutes an owner or possessor of a magical item which cannot be held is questionable. But, this suggests that if you ever really put the golem under the intelligent item mind's control, you'll have to be careful about it doing something that you don't want it to do. It will not necessarily be the tireless perfect guardian you wanted to create. And there's no real way to force it to be that way, as the golem simply doesn't have the sentience to do anything but what it says, unless you're specifically there to countermand it.

So it kinda looks like you might simply be shoring up one weakness, while creating another. (Such as a guardian that could quite possibly be bargained with by the intruders it was tasked with defending against.)


You know what I realized that's so horrible? Warforged's armor plating can be enhanced as if it was armor... This leaves it open to enhancing it as an intelligent item...

Ugh... :p

Jack_Simth
2008-02-05, 07:15 AM
Hmm, ok...so let's say that this is feasible. The golem would then be of two minds. Both considered constructs. You have the golem's own owner-obeying mind. And then you have the intelligent item mind with its own special purpose. No mechanics exist for the golem to follow the intelligent item mind except that the golem can be directed to follow the guidance of another entity. This can be done to put the golem under the control of the more intelligent force.

I'd be more inclined to say it's a single mind (considering that normal golems are entirely mindless). Even if it wasn't that way....

Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner.... as an intelligent item, it can activate it's own powers. What's a golem's powers? Smash stuff, walk around, and so on.

Theli
2008-02-05, 09:17 AM
Nope, don't buy that.

A golem is mindless, but it follows directions. There are specific mechanics for having those directions be communicated to the golem. It is not a single mind.

That SRD quote is obviously referring to the listed lesser and greater powers. (It appears directly below a table listing the very same. So no, it does not apply to the golem's mobility.)

Aquillion
2008-02-05, 12:55 PM
Found something weird in the listings for epic golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm):


Adamantine Golem
Speed: 20 ft. (can’t run)
But that's not so important; that'd just apply to Adamantine golems. The strange part is the other epic golem:


Mithral Golem
...
A mithral golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise, nor does it have any distinguishable odor. Unlike most golems, it can run just as well as a normal creature.
Is WotC just really disorganized and contradictory? Did they forget they took that out?

Also note that if you want to be technical, the "just as well as a normal creature" makes it worse at running, since "most golems" can run forever without tiring in 3.5, and normal creatures can't.

Theli
2008-02-05, 04:04 PM
So apparently a golem's status as a creature prevents them from fulfilling the prerequisite for an intelligent item, as it requires that it be a magical item...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-05, 04:36 PM
So apparently a golem's status as a creature prevents them from fulfilling the prerequisite for an intelligent item, as it requires that it be a magical item...

The core rules are pretty clear it is a viable option for a PC or DM in a game. Any game that it would be a problem in can simply house rule it.

If you go outside of core there is the ECS Artificer base class who can craft homunculus (constructs) at level 3 and has the option to take the Craft Construct feat at levels 8, 12, 16 and 20 as a class bonus feat.

If the issue is wizard having henchmen constructs simply require that the wizard have the Leadership feat and treat the construct like an NPC using LA to calculate ECL which will address most abuses in game by a PC (That can be a good reason why most wizards do not make intelligent constructs they require some directing (Leadership feat).

Arbitrarity
2008-02-05, 05:05 PM
Aquillion, ELH is 3.0, and hasn't really been updated to 3.5 in the SRD.

Odd, the 3.5 update booklet at WoTC doesn't adress this.

EDIT: Why do I post Epic Level handbook as Expanded Psionics Handbook?

Theli
2008-02-05, 05:12 PM
A golem is simply not a magic item.

However, what can be done is to make that hat of disguise into an intelligent item that the golem follows. :p

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-05, 05:39 PM
A golem is simply not a magic item.

However, what can be done is to make that hat of disguise into an intelligent item that the golem follows. :p

I disagree unless you limit your "Core" arguement to the PHB, MM and DMG without the setting source books or the SRD since the Craft Construct feat is in the SRD and other source books.

Theli
2008-02-05, 05:42 PM
As stated in the Simple Q&A thread, golems, even though created by the Craft Construct feat, are not considered magical items. They are considered creatures.

*shrugs*

Chronos
2008-02-05, 06:29 PM
Yeah, I thought it seemed too good to be true. The point could still be argued, but I'm not going to be the one to try to get into a staring contest with our resident beholder.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-05, 08:57 PM
Yeah, I thought it seemed too good to be true. The point could still be argued, but I'm not going to be the one to try to get into a staring contest with our resident beholder.

So what the NPC or PC wizard could do in Core using the Monster Manual or SRD is make a Homunculus construct which is intelligent and knows what it's master knows to direct the Iron Golem for the whopping cost of 120 gp, a few spells, several hours and 25 xp at CL7+.

Here it is from the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/homunculus.htm

It can direct that Iron Golem to do things like Drink the potion of Endure Elements at 50 gp.

Theli
2008-02-05, 11:15 PM
I see...master blaster...

Chronos
2008-02-05, 11:53 PM
So what the NPC or PC wizard could do in Core using the Monster Manual or SRD is make a Homunculus construct which is intelligent and knows what it's master knows to direct the Iron Golem for the whopping cost of 120 gp, a few spells, several hours and 25 xp at CL7+.I see no objection to this, but there are a couple of drawbacks. First, it's a little less efficient to have to rely on a communications link. The golem would react slower than would a creature acting on its own. Mechanically, I'd roll initiative for both the golem and the homonculus, and say the golem acts on whichever is slower of the two. Second, homonculi don't have all of the nifty immunities of golems (nor, for that matter, all of the nifty hit points). So it'd be relatively easy for an enemy to take out the brains of your golem, even if he can't take out the brawn.

Oh, and you'd also have to keep your constructs close to you, or the little guy will get a bad case of separation anxiety.

Kami2awa
2008-02-06, 05:54 AM
Silent Image. Just distract the shopkeep. Also, Ghost sound, level 0.

Adamantine's more expensive than gold*. Anyone dealing in it will have security measures galore, probably magical ones, and tons of money with which to track down thieves. It's going to take more than a Silent Image to get through.

*Basis: Silver ammunition costs +2gp extra. There are 10 sp to 1 gp so silver, in the D&D world, is about 10 times cheaper than gold; a gold arrow would cost an extra +20gp if anyone ever wanted one. An admantine arrow, on the other hand, costs +60gp!

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 11:27 AM
I see no objection to this, but there are a couple of drawbacks. First, it's a little less efficient to have to rely on a communications link. The golem would react slower than would a creature acting on its own. Mechanically, I'd roll initiative for both the golem and the homonculus, and say the golem acts on whichever is slower of the two. Second, homonculi don't have all of the nifty immunities of golems (nor, for that matter, all of the nifty hit points). So it'd be relatively easy for an enemy to take out the brains of your golem, even if he can't take out the brawn.

Oh, and you'd also have to keep your constructs close to you, or the little guy will get a bad case of separation anxiety.

Sure there are drawbacks but a creative player can work around most of the arbitrary restrictions imposed on them in game.

The golem can have standing orders for certain actions if the little guy is targeted.

Like Theli posted earlier the Hat of Disguise can be intelligent to activate it's own abilities and direct the Iron Golem wearing it (disguised to look like something else like a Heavily armored Dwarf (Move Slow), Frost Giant (So the PCs are inclined to use Magical Fire Attacks) or a White Dragon (So the PCs are inclined to use Magical Fire Attacks and not fly).

The Homunculous can direct the Hat and the Iron Golem.

When the little guy is destroyed the BBEG wizard is alerted to the location of the PCs if he wasn't before hand.

Theli
2008-02-06, 11:40 AM
Let me also suggest...Cait Sith.

Bwahahaha! :D

VariaVespasa
2008-02-06, 12:13 PM
If the golem is created as a magic item, and can be modified as a magic item, then I think there is an excellent arguement for treating it as an item in many ways, including the fact that an items material dr always applies, regardless of the attack form, as per the rules on magic item destruction, failed saving throws, sundering etc. Which would give an iron golem 10 dr against anything not adamantine, which is certainly within the spirit and history of iron golems and prevents most of the lowbie cheese, as it should, without meaningfully hindering opponents of the proper level. You *could* still take one down with lesser orbs (if youre silly enough to permit nonsense and the orb spells in your game) but it would take a heckuva lot more of 'em, since only above average hits would do any damage.