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Charles Phipps
2008-02-02, 11:42 PM
So, should Tieflings have their origins in the classic "My ancestor was an unholy pit creature from Hell?"

or the new "My ancestors made pacts with evil"?

Give your reasons why you think it should be one or the other.

Glyde
2008-02-02, 11:45 PM
Both are neat for RP reasons.

I like mine when it comes to RP though: Half-Fiend disguised as a Tiefling disguised as a Half-Elf.

de-trick
2008-02-02, 11:45 PM
I'd go with the pact because it makes human not hump everything like they do in D&D. We could cross out big ugly evil unholy monsters of the lists of possible mates for a human.

Nebo_
2008-02-02, 11:54 PM
Give your reasons why you think it should be one or the other.

Why should it be one or the other? Can't you just choose which one fits the character?

Kyeudo
2008-02-02, 11:55 PM
How about both at once? More bang for your buck.

mabriss lethe
2008-02-02, 11:55 PM
meh, either one could work, but I'm all about adding fluff options to match up with crunch, not reducing fluff to limit a character. One of the things I like about D20 is the mutability of the fluff.

PirateMonk
2008-02-02, 11:55 PM
I'd go with the pact because it makes human not hump everything like they do in D&D. We could cross out big ugly evil unholy monsters of the lists of possible mates for a human.

But for that, you'd also have to remove half-fiends.

Talya
2008-02-02, 11:56 PM
I'd go with the pact because it makes human not hump everything like they do in D&D. We could cross out big ugly evil unholy monsters of the lists of possible mates for a human.

Exactly what would all the succubi/incubi be doing then? (Aside from packing their moving vans to get to the 9 hells, which is a very long way from the abyss.)

Farmer42
2008-02-02, 11:58 PM
Just remember, it's "Smite Evil," not "bump uglies." I'm totally for the change. I like the concept of a race making an evil pact and then just fail, and crumble like dust.

Zincorium
2008-02-03, 12:00 AM
Honestly, the pact idea just makes more sense to me. Sacrificing a yet unborn child to evil for tangible rewards? I hate to say it, but I'm pretty sure I know people who'd do just that.

Actual intercourse with fiendish entities (IMO) would either be nonproductive (succubi) or occur intentionally under very specific circumstances, the Draegoloth (sp?) cross with drow being a good example of such.

Rama_Lei
2008-02-03, 12:02 AM
When a man and a woman love each other much, a demon rises from the unholy depths of hell and impregnates the woman through supernatural means. The husband is soon killed by a succubus. The end.

Talya
2008-02-03, 12:04 AM
Actual intercourse with fiendish entities (IMO) would either be nonproductive (succubi) or occur intentionally under very specific circumstances, the Draegoloth (sp?) cross with drow being a good example of such.
Succubi are quite capable of mothering (or fathering, as Incubi) offspring with mortals.

Inigo Montoya
2008-02-03, 12:07 AM
When a man and a woman love each other much, a demon rises from the unholy depths of hell and impregnates the woman through supernatural means. The husband is soon killed by a succubus. The end.

Would you mind if I put this in my sig?

jamroar
2008-02-03, 12:08 AM
So, should Tieflings have their origins in the classic "My ancestor was an unholy pit creature from Hell?"

or the new "My ancestors made pacts with evil"?

Give your reasons why you think it should be one or the other.

The two are not mutually exclusive, like the Realms Fey'ri and Draegloth. ("My ancestors made pacts with evil in order to a set up an organized fiendish breeding program").

osyluth
2008-02-03, 12:12 AM
The first one looks great until you really think about it. I mean, half-orcs are bad enough but...

Zincorium
2008-02-03, 12:20 AM
Succubi are quite capable of mothering (or fathering, as Incubi) offspring with mortals.

You're technically correct, but all of that was in my opinion. You don't get to dictate my opinions :smalltongue: .

I'm well aware of the fact, in the game, that succubi (I'm using that term to encompass incubi as well) can have children. I just don't think that should be a common occurence.

What's the primary reason for lustful people not to sleep with other mundanes? I'd say pregnancy. Getting your voluptuous but demonic girlfriend pregnant, or getting pregnant by your fiendish boytoy, ruins the entire experience and makes people much less likely to take that option.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-02-03, 12:21 AM
The first one looks great until you really think about it. I mean, half-orcs are bad enough but...



Except, unlike Orcs, fiends have piles on piles of fantastic spell-like abilities. The pit fiend doesn't have to look like a pit fiend when its humping your grandmomma or your great grandmomma, he just has to hump her, period.

As many have said, both options have their appeal. It just depends on the character. I prefer my tieflings a little more subtle than the 4e variety. Red eyes, subtle horns, pointed teeth, the tendancy to make others uncomfortable just by their mere presence, so the massive horns, the grat big honking crocodile tails, the red skin and the rest of the new ensemble is getting thrown out in any campaign I run, no matter what the origin of the individual.

-Blue

Talya
2008-02-03, 12:23 AM
The first one looks great until you really think about it. I mean, half-orcs are bad enough but...

You have issues with devils?

http://www.dvdfever.co.uk/smallpic/bedazren_s.jpg

Mando Knight
2008-02-03, 12:44 AM
I'd go with the pact because it makes human not hump everything like they do in D&D.

Ever heard of William Thomas Riker or James Tiberius Kirk? If it's got a vaguely feminine appearance, they'd hump it... and they're not from D&D...

Rutee
2008-02-03, 12:50 AM
I like both, as options, but prefer the "My ancestors made a pact with evil". It's so much more deliciously evil a past, and leaves there relatively little need to angst on the part of the Tiefling. Granted either way, there's little need, but "My ancestors booped up" strikes me as slightly less of a justification then "I have evil flowing through my veins because my ancestors booped a demon."

The Extinguisher
2008-02-03, 12:59 AM
I personally prefer the "my ancestor is an incarnation of all things evil" style. I think it's because I set up a lot of RP based on evil demons in the family tree.

For example, a tiefling with very dilute human blood will look more human compared to a tiefling who's parent is a half-fiend. And tiefling society (what little there is) denotes status based on how far removed you are from the "source".

The evil pact thing just gets rid of a lot of things, in my opinion.

Blackadder
2008-02-03, 01:10 AM
Here's the thing
It makes quasi-sense. They are magic, they can breed with whatever they like, Celestials make half Celestials and on down the family tree we get aasimar. Way back up the family tree some demon or devil did Grandma? Well mom's a half-fiend and I end up being a Tiefling.

The fact they can reproduce at all is due to Alter-self or polymorph. Few people can take it from a Balor or a Pit fiend and survive if you catch my meaning, and how exactly would a Marilith or a Cornugon get down to business in their native forms?

The answer is of course, unless you want some very disturbing images, they would be awkward to say the least. The other thing of course is that everyone in this thread comes into it assuming that the intercourse is well... consensual. With demon's and devil's that's rarely the case(With the exception of Succubus and Erinyes who seek it)

Half-fiends are a result of a corruption of evil, a taint that last some time genetically speaking and manifests in a thousand different ways. Same thing for aasimar except few people look on the birth of a aasimar as a bad thing. There is no "taint of good".

But binding? I mean what the heck? So I got given over to the evilness and now I'm evil and have horns, woohoo.... Yeah...
It takes so much out of it. You look at a Aasimar or a Tiefling and you see history, you see a family tree which has an obivious twist somewhere along the path. Look at an "pack with the baddies" Tiefling of 4.0? Please, it lets you get demoniacally looking people who are semi-accepted in society but again, it smells less of sense and more of pandering, of wanting to build a world where you could look like a horned servent and still be accepted in polite company.

Doomsy
2008-02-03, 01:11 AM
So, should Tieflings have their origins in the classic "My ancestor was an unholy pit creature from Hell?"

or the new "My ancestors made pacts with evil"?

Give your reasons why you think it should be one or the other.



"My ancestor had knowledge of evil creatures in the past, and all I got was this stupid emo cliche built around me."

Blackadder
2008-02-03, 01:12 AM
*Edit taking this to a new topic

Thexare Blademoon
2008-02-03, 01:17 AM
I think it's because I set up a lot of RP based on evil demons in the family tree.

First thought after seeing "demons in the family tree":

"Every thanksgiving we'd have a barbecue at Uncle Mephistopheles' house. Anyone who didn't bring food became food."

I have odd first thoughts at 1:30 AM.

VanBuren
2008-02-03, 01:38 AM
First thought after seeing "demons in the family tree":

"Every thanksgiving we'd have a barbecue at Uncle Mephistopheles' house. Anyone who didn't bring food became food."

I have odd first thoughts at 1:30 AM.

First thought after reading that post:

Asmodeus: "At the Festivus dinner, you gather your family around and tell them all the ways they have disappointed you over the past year."

Tiefling: "And is there a tree?"

Asmodeus: "No. Instead, there's a pole. Requires no decoration. I find tinsel distracting."

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 02:02 AM
On my end, I tend to think that the Tieflings should stick to their mythic origins. Fiends don't care about pregnancy (and either can not get pregnant when they don't want---for succubi its probably a simple matter of shape-shifting, or do things we best not think about).

But Incubi were all about siring demonic children. While I understand the urge to avoid unpleasant topics, I think there's a point where even the SUGGESTION of something untoward happening sexually on the LIKELY chance of something happening due to one partner being pure evil is a bit overly sensitive.

For me, I like Tieflings as Lovecraft influenced. You are a creature drawn to evil because you are a monster's child and may well end up becoming something like it.

It avoids all the problems of Drow and Orcs as innately evil.

TheOOB
2008-02-03, 02:25 AM
Meh, I run Tieflings as a generic race for any mortal who is tainted by infernal blood. People decended from demons and devils fit the bill, as do humans who made a pact with the underworld. Just as there are many different division of demon, there are many different divisions of tieflings.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 02:29 AM
Meh, I run Tieflings as a generic race for any mortal who is tainted by infernal blood. People decended from demons and devils fit the bill, as do humans who made a pact with the underworld. Just as there are many different division of demon, there are many different divisions of tieflings.

Yes, I find that I can substitute "Tieflings" for Orcs just fine. A horde of Hellspawned Mortals drawn to evil is the same no matter how you choose to slice it.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-03, 02:39 AM
I think I'll be using the Tieflings's 4e fluff. Since there aren't currently any in the game, and the homebrew world is still rather small, perhaps refugees from another continent, fleeing oppression by their ancestor's vassals descendants.

...Which I just realized is exactly what happened with the Kalashtar winding up on Khorvaire in ECS! Oh well, the trope works.

Rutee
2008-02-03, 02:40 AM
For me, I like Tieflings as Lovecraft influenced. You are a creature drawn to evil because you are a monster's child and may well end up becoming something like it.

It avoids all the problems of Drow and Orcs as innately evil.

...Er.. what problem?

Talya
2008-02-03, 02:49 AM
Orcs are evil by nature. They're predatory creatures with just enough sentience to know that what their instincts lead them to do is wrong. Few rise above it.

Drow are evil by nurture. They are not naturally evil, they are just predominantly raised in an evil society. Those raised outside that culture tend to vary as much as others of the culture they were raised in do. They are, however, instinctually chaotic. Few ever choose a lawful way of life.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 03:01 AM
...Er.. what problem?

That Drow are Elves. Just ones worshiping Lolth.

And also, Elves can be Evil as Drow show.

So, ergo, Orcs can be Good.

Dhavaer
2008-02-03, 03:05 AM
That Drow are Elves. Just ones worshiping Lolth.

And also, Elves can be Evil as Drow show.

So, ergo, Orcs can be Good.

How is this a problem?

VanBuren
2008-02-03, 03:25 AM
How is this a problem?

"Hey, you got moral dilemma in my adventuring!"

"Hey, you got adventuring in my moral dilemma!"

"..."

"...

"EEEWWW!"

I'm guessing it's probably something along those lines. Or maybe he's just an anti-Orcite.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 03:34 AM
How is this a problem?

Actually, I consider it an opportunity.

In LOTR, Orcs are Always Chaotic Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysChaoticEvil)

However, in Forgotten Realms, I make it a point that Orcs are more like the Mongols or Huns. The vast, vast, vast majority of them are rampaging warriors when encountered by PCs.

Then there's the awkward moment where before going to battle the horde of King Obould, they stay at an Orcish family's Pig Farm.

Plus, we get nice moments like SOD where the best part is the realization that Redcloak is every bit the evil that humans say that Hobgoblins are.

Dhavaer
2008-02-03, 03:45 AM
Actually, I consider it an opportunity.

In LOTR, Orcs are Always Chaotic Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysChaoticEvil)

However, in Forgotten Realms, I make it a point that Orcs are more like the Mongols or Huns. The vast, vast, vast majority of them are rampaging warriors when encountered by PCs.

Then there's the awkward moment where before going to battle the horde of King Obould, they stay at an Orcish family's Pig Farm.

Plus, we get nice moments like SOD where the best part is the realization that Redcloak is every bit the evil that humans say that Hobgoblins are.

So Lovecraft-influenced tieflings avoid an opportunity?

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 05:03 AM
So Lovecraft-influenced tieflings avoid an opportunity?

No, they remove the dilution of the concept. Tieflings become the "Unnatural" while Orcs are just the Bad. If you make all members of a VAST VAST VAST set of species like Sahuagin (Deep Ones) and Orcs (Ghouls) bad then you might be with Lovecraft but you might lose some of the horror in your standard fantasy game.

Lovecraft also had Pickman (post-Ghouldom) be a close and personal friend of Gary Stu Randolf Carter.

Emperor Demonking
2008-02-03, 05:13 AM
I'd prefer if both were used, but out of the two I prefer the pact one.

Wulfram
2008-02-03, 05:47 AM
Given the presence of real physical features, I prefer actual ancestry.

If it was just an ancestral pact, then I'd expect there to be just some cool powers, unpleasant dreams, a disturbing laugh and perhaps an annoying tendency for your eyes to glow red at inopportune moments, rather than horns, tails and whatnot.

Morty
2008-02-03, 06:32 AM
No, they remove the dilution of the concept. Tieflings become the "Unnatural" while Orcs are just the Bad. If you make all members of a VAST VAST VAST set of species like Sahuagin (Deep Ones) and Orcs (Ghouls) bad then you might be with Lovecraft but you might lose some of the horror in your standard fantasy game.


Do you really need whole species to be unnatural and irredeemably evil?
Anyway, both of these work for me. They aren't mutually exclusive, and both create interesting opportunities, especially when Tiefling shows up few generation after his/her ancestors made a deal with fiends. Though I prefer my Tieflings to be a bit more subtly fiendish, instead of having huge horns, tails and whatnot.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 06:57 AM
Do you really need whole species to be unnatural and irredeemably evil?

I tend to think, yeah.

If you have a Baatezu mowing his lawn in Sigi, you've got Planescape.

If he does it in the Realms, you've got genre breaking.

Blackadder
2008-02-03, 01:20 PM
I tend to think, yeah.

If you have a Baatezu mowing his lawn in Sigi, you've got Planescape.

If he does it in the Realms, you've got genre breaking.
RIP Planescape :smallfrown:
Anyway, it's a good definition.
In the planes, an Epic Level NPC is around every corner so the rules are totally different... or were until 4.0 wonked all the planes around. In Faerun you don't expect the Baatezu to be doing anything but explicitly evil or evilish acts

Rutee
2008-02-03, 01:32 PM
I tend to think, yeah.

If you have a Baatezu mowing his lawn in Sigi, you've got Planescape.

If he does it in the Realms, you've got genre breaking.

Hm, well, whatever floats your boat and sinks your battleship. It's not like either option is really that bad.

DeathQuaker
2008-02-03, 02:23 PM
I like good old fashioned demonspawn, but I think the fluff for the fiendish-pact thing is fine. I just don't understand why it has to be one or the other. Why can't there be tieflings--humans with demonic ancestry--AND these newfangled pact-children?

Oh, because we don't want to think about people having sex. Heavens forfend.

Morty
2008-02-03, 02:28 PM
I tend to think, yeah.

If you have a Baatezu mowing his lawn in Sigi, you've got Planescape.

If he does it in the Realms, you've got genre breaking.

There's a difference between "species" and "living incarnation of evil born from the souls of evil-doers", you know. But other than that, I get your point.

Leliel
2008-02-03, 02:33 PM
I like both, but the latter more.

It really emphasizes the "innocent of their father's sins, but reaping the result anyway" nature of the tieflings

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-03, 03:01 PM
There's a difference between "species" and "living incarnation of evil born from the souls of evil-doers", you know. But other than that, I get your point.

Is that difference "species is a modern concept with no place in a fantasy game, whereas living incarnation of evil isn't"?

How is "living incarnation of evil" different from "vile spawn of an evil god" (Orcs) or "debased followers of a corrupt demoness" (Drow)?

Morty
2008-02-03, 03:10 PM
How is "living incarnation of evil" different from "vile spawn of an evil god" (Orcs) or "debased followers of a corrupt demoness" (Drow)?

Where does it say that orcs are "vile spawn of an evil god"? Anyway, orcs and drow are still sentient, mortal races with capability of moral choice. Devils and demons are spawned on the evil planes from the souls of evil mortals for the sole purpo. Quite a difference.

Devils_Advocate
2008-02-03, 09:27 PM
The two are not mutually exclusive, like the Realms Fey'ri and Draegloth. ("My ancestors made pacts with evil in order to a set up an organized fiendish breeding program").
I favor this combination of both options. Partly because I see everyone saying what they like about one or the other but almost no one saying that they dislike something about one, so including both seems like it would please the most people.

Also, it makes sense from both perspectives. If mortals and fiends can produce powerful offspring useful to the mortals, then it stands to reason that some mortals might make pacts with fiends to do so. And with big, organized programs to produce part-fiends, it stands to reason that most part-fiends will be the result of those programs instead of chance encounters between fiends and mortals.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-04, 01:05 AM
I think the issue is a lot like Cardassians. You're rarely going to see Cardassian children running around and playing. 99.99% of Cardassians you encounter in your Next Generation game will be utter *****s.

Yet, no one automatically assumes Cardassians are innately evil.

Vs. say, Deep Ones.

Contrast the Cardassians against another set of Space Nazis in Daleks or the Borg.

See, two very different tones.

horseboy
2008-02-04, 01:08 AM
Yeah, I too like the combined approach to this. If you're going to do it, you may as well take it full on over the top and make it a full on "Dunwich Horror and "Shadow Over Innsmouth" approach.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-04, 01:41 PM
OK, someone should make a Bug-Eyed Innsmouth Descendant template...

I agree with the people who say "Either." In fact, if you look at Shadow over Innsmouth, it's kind of both-
(could ruin the suspense, so spoiler tags here)
They only start mating with the Deep Ones after they've made the dark and evil pacts for good fishing.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-04, 02:06 PM
OK, someone should make a Bug-Eyed Innsmouth Descendant template...

I agree with the people who say "Either." In fact, if you look at Shadow over Innsmouth, it's kind of both-
(could ruin the suspense, so spoiler tags here)
They only start mating with the Deep Ones after they've made the dark and evil pacts for good fishing.

Shadow over Innsmouth is by far my favorite Lovecraft story. It really gets you into the mood of the story, which is that of suspense and the terror from uncovering a dark secret that you still don't fully understand.