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View Full Version : 4.0 Aasimar, won't someone think of the children!



Blackadder
2008-02-03, 01:17 AM
Considering all the unhappiness about Tiefling's getting their own society and a cliche or ten, it occured to me no one's been talking about the more popular cousin of Tieflings, that being... the Aasimar.

Are aasimar still the result of a Celestial and a humanoid getting it on+2 generations? Are the Tiefling's long haired hippy cousins doomed to fade into nothingness with 4.0?

Do we have any information or speculation on this point?

de-trick
2008-02-03, 01:19 AM
I for one would like Aasimar to be a main race, cause then there would be a unbalance between good and evil.

Rutee
2008-02-03, 01:20 AM
Tieflings are getting a new cliche? Where?

Anyway, I'm afraid I can't back it up, but as I recall, Aasimar were getting a rename, but wouldn't be in the PHB. Prolly in the Monster Manual, if anywhere.

horseboy
2008-02-03, 01:32 AM
Aren't they going to be called "Celestials" or something?

Blackadder
2008-02-03, 01:50 AM
Aren't they going to be called "Celestials" or something?
So what? The old Celestials just become "The Good Guys(TM)"?

Rutee the Tieflings get lose the "Bow-chicka-wow-wow" cliche(Demon blood) and gain the "Evil deal" cliche. Along with possibly other cliche's, we don't know all the Tiefling details yet.

the_tick_rules
2008-02-03, 01:51 AM
how about call them quarter breeds, or 1/8th or whatever their percentage is.

Rutee
2008-02-03, 01:53 AM
Rutee the Tieflings get lose the "Bow-chicka-wow-wow" cliche(Demon blood) and gain the "Evil deal" cliche. Along with possibly other cliche's, we don't know all the Tiefling details yet.

Trading a Cliche is not the same as gaining one.

Doomsy
2008-02-03, 02:00 AM
Aasimar seem to have been generically considered good guys and as such, fairly boring. Which is a shame. The few people I've played with who rolled Aasimar decided to pretty much abuse the common misconceptions in amusing ways.

The Tiefling thing is pretty much pandering, pure and simple, and probably a result of realizing they couldn't stuff Drow into the PBH to sate the needs of a certain few player types.
Hopefully the Aasimar will get their day as a playable race in an handbook or in the MM, though. ...and as a balanced +0 one too. With decent fluff. Not going to hold my breath on it, tho.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-03, 02:02 AM
Not to mention, too many Drizzt's wouldaf been suspicious.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-03, 02:07 AM
Anyway, I'm afraid I can't back it up, but as I recall, Aasimar were getting a rename, but wouldn't be in the PHB. Prolly in the Monster Manual, if anywhere.

Races and Classes made mention of it IIRC. I don't mind the change in Tiefling fluff, considering it'd take a pretty sick person to *ahem* a demon (or was it just fiends in general? Still, most devils don't look pretty appealing). The deal with the devil backfiring is a much better trope, coming back to bite the deal makers in the ass in the long term, but giving them the short term gain they wanted.

TheOOB
2008-02-03, 02:22 AM
On the one hand, it would be silly to create the watered down infernal and not the good one, on the other Aasimars often present the present even a greater role play problem then Tieflings. Given too many Tieflings are angsty rebels trying to go against their infernal nature, but Aasimars have a tendency to be holier-then-thou Miko-esq insane "good" guys, believing themselves to be always right no matter what. Basically you have all the role play problems a paladin presents, wrapped up into a race (not to mention the aasimar paladins.) Also, it should be noted that celestials don't have quite as big of a reputation of having kids with mortals, at least in modern western ideas (but brings ancient greece into things and that changes.)

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 02:26 AM
Bizarrely, I always liked Aasimar because I figured out the "Hook" for them. My problem was always "Tieflings are drawn to evil." Right? That's easy to roleplay, for me, I always thought it was a blast to have "Drawn to Good."

The best Aasimar character that I ever saw was one that had the constant burning angst about not being GOOD ENOUGH. It was like a painful throbbing in his skull that he had to be this transcendental being that no human could possibly match. Worse, that he was trapped on a world surrounded by values that were physical painful.

There's some good roleplaying opportunities with Aasimar. Just remember, they don't naturally have the glorious serenity of a Paladin.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-03, 02:29 AM
3.5E fluff disagrees with that.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 02:33 AM
3.5E fluff disagrees with that.

Which doesn't apply because it's about 4E Celestials now.

But I imagine that no one is going to kick down your door because you have a new take on the idea.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-03, 02:40 AM
Of course. But I'm placing a ginormous bet on that, once Aasimar appear, one line in their fluff will EXPLICITLY say: "Serene, calm, and composed..."etc. Because it fits an LG supergood, and LG has been the "True" good alignment since first edition (I disagree with this. The title should go to NG).

ShadowSiege
2008-02-03, 02:52 AM
Of course. But I'm placing a ginormous bet on that, once Aasimar appear, one line in their fluff will EXPLICITLY say: "Serene, calm, and composed..."etc. Because it fits an LG supergood, and LG has been the "True" good alignment since first edition (I disagree with this. The title should go to NG).

Agreed on the NG. The course of action that does the greatest good, regardless of benefit/detriment to society. I certainly wouldn't take your bet about the fluff of the aasimar.

As for tieflings and aasimar, I've always thought of their predisposition towards evil and good as just that, predisposition. It's like being born with a predisposition to being scrawny or athletic, it's ultimately the result of choice and the environment the individual grew up in on whether the individual goes with it or not. They're human, but with some cosmetic differences and a tendency to either be a jerk or nice.

Talya
2008-02-03, 02:54 AM
Aasimar are not naturally "lawful." They tend toward good, but have no special disposition toward lawful. Celestials themselves range across the law-chaos scale. Angels can all be any. (Although archons are certaily lawful). They'll need to replace the BoED Eladrin in 4.0, since the Eladrin have been made into pansy arcane elves...need a less rigid celestial type dedicated to individual liberty as opposed to the hive-mind "greater good" of the Archons.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 02:57 AM
Counterpoint, 4E Angels aren't going to be naturally Good.

There will be Chaotic Evil Angels serving the Gods of Chaotic Evil.

Serrae
2008-02-03, 05:13 AM
The races and classes prevew book does mention them, they are changing the name because no-one can remeber/spell Aasimar apparently:smallconfused:

They said they want to try and find an exciting hook for them due to the problem of goodness being seen as boring, so its really a case of waiting to see what Wizards consider makes a cool good-guy.

However if evil gods get evil angels, and Aasimar become someone with a mix of human and angel blood (rather than specifically a celestial backround) then you could have Aasimar of evil origin, still bearing the charming looks of their angelic backround and favour of thier patron gods, but running the gambit between alignments.

That being said probably not, I imagine they will remain the ultra-good people that we know, lets just hope they remain with good racials to be bards!:smallsmile:

Emperor Demonking
2008-02-03, 05:20 AM
Aadimars can't really fit as "related" to tieflings as you never hear of making pacts with angels.

Serrae
2008-02-03, 05:27 AM
Aadimars can't really fit as "related" to tieflings as you never hear of making pacts with angels.

Hmm though in the old fluff... Grandma and grandpa split up, grandma met a nice Incubus gentleman while grandpa found a nice winged lady in Celestia, 2 generations down the line and chaos ensues as the descendants of grandma and grandpa's shared child meets up with the descendants of their children with supernatural bodies!

hmm... *steals for future overly complicated npcs*

AslanCross
2008-02-03, 05:28 AM
Considering all the unhappiness about Tiefling's getting their own society and a cliche or ten, it occured to me no one's been talking about the more popular cousin of Tieflings, that being... the Aasimar.

Are aasimar still the result of a Celestial and a humanoid getting it on+2 generations? Are the Tiefling's long haired hippy cousins doomed to fade into nothingness with 4.0?

Do we have any information or speculation on this point?

I'm pretty sure the dude in the middle with the lightsaber is a Celestial.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/WorldsNMonsters_Wall/WorldsNMonsters_wp2_1024.jpg

AslanCross
2008-02-03, 05:34 AM
Considering all the unhappiness about Tiefling's getting their own society and a cliche or ten, it occured to me no one's been talking about the more popular cousin of Tieflings, that being... the Aasimar.

Are aasimar still the result of a Celestial and a humanoid getting it on+2 generations? Are the Tiefling's long haired hippy cousins doomed to fade into nothingness with 4.0?

Do we have any information or speculation on this point?

I'm pretty sure the dude in the middle with the lightsaber is a Celestial.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/WorldsNMonsters_Wall/WorldsNMonsters_wp2_1024.jpg

To be honest, I'm glad they dropped the "Celestial" terminology as it was used in 3.5e: It used to apply to:
1. Any good-aligned outsider, whether angel, archon, guardinal, or eladrin
2. A creature native to the higher planes.

This confused me, because in 3.5 the "Half-Celestial" template is a lot more powerful than the "Celestial" template. Then I realized that it was because the Half-Celestial represents a creature who has a celestial outsider for a parent, while the "Celestial" template simply means an otherwise mundane creature made powerful by being native to the higher planes.

As much as I liked the "aasimar" race name, it's not really always completely true. The name comes from "Aasimon," which was the collective term that used to be applied to Angels. Of course, not all Aasimar are descended from Angels, so it's sort of inconsistent.

Lolzords
2008-02-03, 05:38 AM
If Tieflings are core, don't see why Aasimar can't be too.

P.S. Blackadder :smallbiggrin:

Ecalsneerg
2008-02-03, 06:21 AM
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/WorldsNMonsters_Wall/WorldsNMonsters_wp2_1024.jpg

The artwork better stay like that for 4e, that's all I'm saying. TThat is kickass.


The races and classes prevew book does mention them, they are changing the name because no-one can remeber/spell Aasimar apparently
And Tiefling is easy to spell....

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 06:51 AM
They literally said in the book "Everyone kept wanting to call it Ass-imar."

Morty
2008-02-03, 06:53 AM
They literally said in the book "Everyone kept wanting to call it Ass-imar."

I'd say it's their problem, not the name's...
I still don't see what's wrong with the name. It's perfectly possible to spell and doesn't have any apostrophes.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-03, 06:59 AM
I'd say it's their problem, not the name's...
I still don't see what's wrong with the name. It's perfectly possible to spell and doesn't have any apostrophes.

Honestly, I don't like Celestials.

I think I'll call my Half-Celestials, Archons.

;-)

(I love the blatant name switching with no regard to past use of the term)

KIDS
2008-02-03, 07:33 AM
I always had the impression that the upcoming Eladrin ate some of the Aasimar/Celestial flavor, but i could be wrong...

Kioran
2008-02-03, 08:15 AM
And Tiefling is easy to spell....

Be a german, then it is........Allthough we alternate between german and english (for rules and terms - english is the D&D language, most material is only available in it) at the table, the german pronunciation makes a lot of things that might sound silly sound a lot better, among these the much maligned distant descendants of Outsiders.

I think itīs not fair to say Aasimars should be available as player race in 4th Ed becasue Tieflings are - after all, they didnīt survive conversion into 4th Ed either. Seriously, the Tieflings they are making today are cosmetically preserved, but much of the rest has been trashed, which is sad......

Gorbash
2008-02-03, 09:30 AM
Races and Classes made mention of it IIRC. I don't mind the change in Tiefling fluff, considering it'd take a pretty sick person to *ahem* a demon (or was it just fiends in general? Still, most devils don't look pretty appealing)

How about Erinyes or Succubi? I wouldn't push them out of my bed, that's for sure. :smalltongue:

Green Bean
2008-02-03, 10:06 AM
How about Erinyes or Succubi? I wouldn't push them out of my bed, that's for sure. :smalltongue:

Heh. That gives me an idea for a Succubus character that was born hideously ugly by their standards (a mere CHA 12), and is forced to seduce and corrupt men by winning them over with her personality.

And on a related note: sucks to your Aasmar! :smalltongue:

EvilElitest
2008-02-03, 10:28 AM
Tieflings are getting a new cliche? Where?

Anyway, I'm afraid I can't back it up, but as I recall, Aasimar were getting a rename, but wouldn't be in the PHB. Prolly in the Monster Manual, if anywhere.

The tieflings in 3rd are great grandchildren to evil outsiders, with a few minor demon traits

tieflings in 4E are race with big horns, giant tales, glowing red eyes, red skin, claws and have teenage angt qualities
from
EE

Blackadder
2008-02-03, 01:23 PM
That's what I forgot!
Angst! Tieflings have a +2 Angst modifier now.

Rutee
2008-02-03, 01:29 PM
Yes, they're SO much more angsty when they say "My ancestors booped up and I bear the marks of this" over "My ancestors booped a demon and I have demon blood flowing through my veins".

Morty
2008-02-03, 01:32 PM
Actually, new Tieflings don't have any reason to be angsty. As far as I know, they're race on their own, interbreed normally and even have got civilization. They're just humans with horns and tails, just like elves are humans with pointy ears.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-03, 01:34 PM
The tieflings in 3rd are great grandchildren to evil outsiders, with a few minor demon traits

tieflings in 4E are race with big horns, giant tales, glowing red eyes, red skin, claws and have teenage angt qualities


Horns, yes, tails, yes, glowing red eyes, yes. Skin? No. Claws? No. Teenage angst? WHAT? Only if you role play them like an idiot.

Rutee
2008-02-03, 01:35 PM
It's true, they don't, M0rt. I'm genuinely unsure of where the angsty stereotype came from on the boards, since it's silly. Darker n' Edgier usually /avoids/ Angst, and that seems to be hte stereotype they're breeding Tieflings for.

Moral Wiz
2008-02-03, 01:39 PM
Meh. Not everyone interpreted the blood as inherently damning (despite it being spelt out in RoD). And it now looks like they are all forced into all the physical signs, instead of it being left up to the player.

When it comes to the Aasimar, I prefer the stance of the blood being a non-factor. But I'm not sold on the idea of shedding the good ties altogether. I'm going to sit on the fence here; till we get more data.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-03, 01:45 PM
It's true, they don't, M0rt. I'm genuinely unsure of where the angsty stereotype came from on the boards, since it's silly. Darker n' Edgier usually /avoids/ Angst, and that seems to be hte stereotype they're breeding Tieflings for.

I'd wager from people like EE repeating that tieflings are angsty. Repetition is a powerful thing in spreading false ideas or information. Iraq War, anyone?

Morty
2008-02-03, 01:50 PM
It's true, they don't, M0rt. I'm genuinely unsure of where the angsty stereotype came from on the boards, since it's silly. Darker n' Edgier usually /avoids/ Angst, and that seems to be hte stereotype they're breeding Tieflings for.

Tieflings in 3ed are dark and fiendish by birth, which is connected with "I hate myself" behavior and cloning Drizzt. So even if Tieflings in 4ed aren't like that, what with them being just another "human in funny suit" race, people will repeat this. Though with whole race of demonic origin, potential for Drizzt cloning will rise immensly.
I myself will change it so that Tieflings are still human/demon offspring in my games, but that's another story.

Rutee
2008-02-03, 01:58 PM
Tieflings in 3ed are dark and fiendish by birth, which is connected with "I hate myself" behavior and cloning Drizzt. So even if Tieflings in 4ed aren't like that, what with them being just another "human in funny suit" race, people will repeat this. Though with whole race of demonic origin, potential for Drizzt cloning will rise immensly.
Hm, is that how it happened? Ah well, either way, angst is written into neither.

As to the Celestials/Aasimar, I think Moral Wiz has the right idea. At this point in time, all we know is that they're getting a rename, and that they're not in the PHB, so we don't really have a good idea on what's happening to them.

Morty
2008-02-03, 02:04 PM
Hm, is that how it happened? Ah well, either way, angst is written into neither.

To be honest, there's still huge opportunity for "Alas, I'm misunderstood and lonely, as I'm the only pure-hearted member of otherwise fiendish race", even though "I'm outcast because I'm neither mortal nor demon" and the like go through the window.

Rutee
2008-02-03, 02:08 PM
To be honest, there's still huge opportunity for "Alas, I'm misunderstood and lonely, as I'm the only pure-hearted member of otherwise fiendish race", even though "I'm outcast because I'm neither mortal nor demon" and the like go through the window.
Yeah, but I can write angst into anything. Look at V. "I HAVE LESS THEM OMNIPOTENT POWER! WOE IS ME." It doesn't bother me that the potential is there, only that they're not written as such in the base fluff.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-03, 02:57 PM
I always had the impression that the upcoming Eladrin ate some of the Aasimar/Celestial flavor, but i could be wrong...
That's the feeling I had. Eladrin took the "resident demi-celestial" role for itself.

In my opinion, aasimar took the boot because most people doesn't play then. Losing one level for a cha bonus is not too attractive to most people, unless those playing paladins.
Tiefling, on the other hand, are the eeeebil guys available for players. And an overwhelming amount of players want to be the angst brooding silent badass guy. It's true. Just look when someone say that playing a "good two-shoes" is boring, check his character's concepts, and you'll see that it's almost an dead-on concept.
That's the reason warlocks are being put as a base class too. Myself, I'll use warlocks and call them sorcerers, and forget that pact crap.

GrassyGnoll
2008-02-03, 04:43 PM
I'm pretty sure the dude in the middle with the lightsaber is a Celestial.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/WorldsNMonsters_Wall/WorldsNMonsters_wp2_1024.jpg

Iunno, with that halo of letters I was thinking Illumian.

Farmer42
2008-02-03, 04:52 PM
Elven or Eladrin. Those are elven characters, page 38 of said book.

Tren
2008-02-03, 05:04 PM
I'm leaning towards half-elf swordmage in that picture.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-03, 05:26 PM
Horns, yes, tails, yes, glowing red eyes, yes. Skin? No. Claws? No. Teenage angst? WHAT? Only if you role play them like an idiot.

You mean like WotC portrays them in that ridiculous video?

Farmer42
2008-02-03, 05:30 PM
The video had no angst. That was more or less pure, stereotypical vamp.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-03, 05:55 PM
No angst in the video, and the artwork in Races and Classes tends more towards red lighting for Tieflings. The female warlock in the race's section has a slight red tinge to her complexion, not the brilliant red of the cartoon. The Tiefling in the cartoon also has green eyes, hardly in keeping with the established "burning embers" description. I certainly wouldn't point to the cartoons as examples of what the races will look like, considering the generally low quality artwork in them.

horseboy
2008-02-03, 07:11 PM
I'm pretty sure the dude in the middle with the lightsaber is a Celestial.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/WorldsNMonsters_Wall/WorldsNMonsters_wp2_1024.jpg

:smallconfused: Why is there a skaven on that line up?

tyckspoon
2008-02-03, 07:15 PM
Skaven? You mean the red-toned panel next to the elf? I think that's a dragonborn.

horseboy
2008-02-03, 07:33 PM
It looks an awful lot like one of my old clan rat minis.
It would make sense if it were a dragonborn, but the "beard" makes it confusing.

Doomsy
2008-02-03, 11:05 PM
Iunno, with that halo of letters I was thinking Illumian.



Good Lord, the far right one looks like a Blood Elf.

And that one Tiefling does look a LOT like a Draenei...

I guess we know their target audience now.

Mewtarthio
2008-02-03, 11:09 PM
Good Lord, the far right one looks like a Blood Elf.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Blood Elves just an attempt by Blizzard to invert the "light is good, dark is bad" schtick that elves (and other fantasy races) always seem to have? I'd think that any fair-skinned elf would look a bit like a Blood Elf.

Rutee
2008-02-03, 11:14 PM
And that one Tiefling does look a LOT like a Draenei...

...THE FIENDISH DESCENDANT HAS HORNS! KILL IT, ITS A DRAENEI RIPOFF

Good lord, did you read what you wrote? And yes, a Blood Elf is basically an Elf iwth glowy eyes. They're not that distinct visually.

Tren
2008-02-03, 11:14 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Blood Elves just an attempt by Blizzard to invert the "light is good, dark is bad" schtick that elves (and other fantasy races) always seem to have? I'd think that any fair-skinned elf would look a bit like a Blood Elf.

Agreed, and it's not as if the Eladrin in the picture has green eyes or gundam eyebrows. Considering that "tall, fair, and suffused with arcane power" has always been a pretty standard definition of elf these "blood elf" accusations seem kind of silly.

Artanis
2008-02-04, 12:26 AM
You mean like WotC portrays them in that ridiculous video?
Am I the only person who thought that the video was supposed to be funny? :smallfrown:

Jayngfet
2008-02-04, 12:27 AM
In reguards to the blood elf, dranai thing, I was playing world of warcraft and me and another guy in my guild had a conversation, he said that they were blatantly ripping off WOW, and I feel like agreeing with him, combined with what they're going to do to goblins and half orcs, no way in hell my homebrewed world will survive(check the broad strokes down on my sig).

tyckspoon
2008-02-04, 12:45 AM
Am I the only person who thought that the video was supposed to be funny? :smallfrown:

Oh, no, most of us understand that it was supposed to be funny, we just think it was a failed joke. I'm with you in wondering why so many people apparently want to say a humorous piece accurately represents the official fluff, tho.

VanBuren
2008-02-04, 01:12 AM
I thought the gnome and his badger minion were the only entertaining part.

horseboy
2008-02-04, 01:12 AM
Am I the only person who thought that the video was supposed to be funny? :smallfrown:

"Supposed to be funny." unfortunately isn't the same thing as "is funny."

Edit: Has anyone seen a male tiefling in the 4th edition stuff?

Rutee
2008-02-04, 01:19 AM
"Supposed to be funny." unfortunately isn't the same thing as "is funny."

Edit: Has anyone seen a male tiefling in the 4th edition stuff?

Several, in Races and Classes.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-04, 01:19 AM
I thought the gnome and his badger minion were the only entertaining part.

Agreed. I really dislike the interviewer.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-04, 01:24 AM
What video?

I missed it.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-04, 01:52 AM
This one:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/toon/20071219a

Was released back in December.

SoD
2008-02-04, 10:59 AM
Personally, as soon as I heard about Teiflings being a core race, in the PHB no less, I instantly started thinking about aasimars (aasimi?). I think that introducing it the teifling properly, but not the aasimi (aasimars?) was a bad idea. As was dropping the gnome.

Citizen Joe
2008-02-04, 11:07 AM
All Outsiders are bad guys by definition...

Being an Outsider means that you are not 'inside' the group.

If you're not with us, you're against us.

We are the good guys because we do what is best for us

Thus all outsiders are the Bad Guys because the are against the Good Guys (us)

Rutee
2008-02-04, 11:30 AM
Friend Computer says the Outsiders are your enemies, and that if you help one, you're a dirty commie traitor. You don't want to betray Friend Computer, do you?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-04, 12:04 PM
Personally, as soon as I heard about Teiflings being a core race, in the PHB no less, I instantly started thinking about aasimars (aasimi?). I think that introducing it the teifling properly, but not the aasimi (aasimars?) was a bad idea. As was dropping the gnome.

Aasimars have not repeat not been dropped. They are merely not in the PHB. I would bet good money on them being one of the "several playable races available" inside the MM, along with *gasp* gnomes! And goblins! And kobolds!

Tren
2008-02-04, 12:39 PM
In reguards to the blood elf, dranai thing, I was playing world of warcraft and me and another guy in my guild had a conversation, he said that they were blatantly ripping off WOW, and I feel like agreeing with him, combined with what they're going to do to goblins and half orcs, no way in hell my homebrewed world will survive(check the broad strokes down on my sig).

But what specifically about tall pretty elves with magic is so unique to Blood Elves? And since when did Draeni become become red-skinned cloven hoofed hornéd cursed children of an infernal pact? :smallannoyed:

Also, considering we haven't heard anything about half-orcs or goblins (besides "goblins are sneaky"), and that neither race has a particularly large role in the Warcraft universe, what are they doing to make them so horrendously WoWish?

ShadowSiege
2008-02-04, 02:15 PM
But what specifically about tall pretty elves with magic is so unique to Blood Elves? And since when did Draeni become become red-skinned cloven hoofed horned cursed children of an infernal pact? :smallannoyed:

Also, considering we haven't heard anything about half-orcs or goblins (besides "goblins are sneaky"), and that neither race has a particularly large role in the Warcraft universe, what are they doing to make them so horrendously WoWish?

Yeah, tieflings have feet, not hooves, and were created via a pact with consummately evil beings. And unless goblins become brokers of high explosives and unreliable technology, they can hardly be considered as ripping off WoW. Half-orcs are pretty much unheard of in WoW, I can only name Garona.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: 4e is updating the game with newer game design theories as well as trying to reach a broader base. Just because WoW did this does not mean that 4e = WoW. It means that WoW and 4e have to some extent, a similar philosophy: make it accessible, make it fun. D&D has been moving in that direction with 3.x, this is just a culmination of that.

Great Old Ones forbid them making the game more fun or bringing in new people, amirite?

EvilElitest
2008-02-04, 02:47 PM
The races and classes prevew book does mention them, they are changing the name because no-one can remeber/spell Aasimar apparently:smallconfused:

They said they want to try and find an exciting hook for them due to the problem of goodness being seen as boring, so its really a case of waiting to see what Wizards consider makes a cool good-guy.



Most likely because WOTC is going against the laws of its own genre and trying to act cool, and as everybody knows, goody two shoes paladins can't be anti heros and evil is cool. Along with black leather
from
EE

horseboy
2008-02-04, 02:55 PM
But what specifically about tall pretty elves with magic is so unique to Blood Elves? And since when did Draeni become become red-skinned cloven hoofed hornéd cursed children of an infernal pact? :smallannoyed:

Also, considering we haven't heard anything about half-orcs or goblins (besides "goblins are sneaky"), and that neither race has a particularly large role in the Warcraft universe, what are they doing to make them so horrendously WoWish?
Bah, everyone knows there's only one true Blood Elf. :smallwink:

http://www.earthdawn.free.fr/Big%20Pictures/Elf%20blood%20wood.gif

EvilElitest
2008-02-04, 02:58 PM
Yes, they're SO much more angsty when they say "My ancestors booped up and I bear the marks of this" over "My ancestors booped a demon and I have demon blood flowing through my veins".

"Oh i'm a forsakeon person, i'm cursed by the sins of my forfathers, I must walk a lonely road (cue Greenday song) and wear dark reavealing leather. I have a demonic appearance , but it is still humonid enough so that girls will fawn over me, i feel like freaking Illiden, Angle or Drizzt. Oh woe is me"
from
EE

EvilElitest
2008-02-04, 03:07 PM
I'd wager from people like EE repeating that tieflings are angsty. Repetition is a powerful thing in spreading false ideas or information. Iraq War, anyone?


Horns, yes, tails, yes, glowing red eyes, yes. Skin? No. Claws? No. Teenage angst? WHAT? Only if you role play them like an idiot

1. Never compare me with the Iraq war again
2. angsy, i did base them off something
They are shunned by others, they wear dark leather, they have little faith, they have a melodrama filled back story, they are teh Bad Boys of D&D. No i am not jocking
"With their horns, tails, and wicked tongues, tieflings quickly became the exotic 'Bad Boys" and "bad girls" of the outer planes. Sly, sexy, and a little sinister, they afforded D&D players a chance to flirt with the dark side without actually cosing the line into full-blown evil. Why play Drizzt when you can play the great-grandson of a pit fiend.

Tieflings reappeared in 3rd Edition Monster Manual, as one of hte "plane-touched" inexorably bound to their do-gooder cousins the Aasimar. Forgive my bias, but I'll take horns and brimstone over sunshine and perfection any day. Sometimes it doesn't pay to be the super good guy"
Your right, because you know what us teens love? An excuse to seem like the Bad boys of D&D

"I asked Christ Perkins to tel me who they were. He said "they are a Forsaken people"

not angsty, no where would i get that idea


Good Lord, the far right one looks like a Blood Elf.

And that one Tiefling does look a LOT like a Draenei...

I guess we know their target audience now.
oh please, like WOTC would aim for WOW players

from
EE

spotmarkedx
2008-02-04, 03:12 PM
"Oh woe is me, I'm a human in a world where all the other major races live significantly longer than I. Due to my lack of low light or darkvision, my entire existance must be darker than that of my elven and dwarven companions."

If you want it, you can find angst anywhere.

If you don't want it, you can avoid it. Me, if I play a tiefling, I'm likely to play one that may have academic interest in the original pact that has given them powers, but neither dwell on the side-effects (appearance) nor try to restore the "golden days" of the tiefling empire.

If anything, normalizing tieflings as a race will make the angst at the very least less disruptive to the game.
3.5: I have demonic heritage, and bear the marks of it on my person. I get turned away from gates of cities due to my appearance (if noticed), and even if let through, many shun my existance. Hey, I'm Drizzt, but I'm demon instead of dark elf. Maybe I don't wield scimitars.
4.0: My ancestors formed some pact that has marked my person. Since tieflings are a fairly frequent sight, it is unlikely that I will come across a town guard that hasn't seen my kind before. Even if there is some discrimination, it is unlikely to be either widespread or uniform. Sorta like how some people don't like dwarves. Or halflings. While I may sometimes wonder if there are any other longlasting effects of the pact on my person, it does little to make me an outcast.

EvilElitest
2008-02-04, 03:17 PM
But these guys are geared in a flavor to beef up their angst appeal. True anyone can be angsty, but these guys are being flavored for it. Why? Well honestly, it is a pretty smart move, angst sells, sexy sells, and evil is cool. That is kinda 4E whole aim now


Friend Computer says the Outsiders are your enemies, and that if you help one, you're a dirty commie traitor. You don't want to betray Friend Computer, do you?

no friend computer, i will obey, can i have my family back now?
from
EE

spotmarkedx
2008-02-04, 04:25 PM
But I guess my point is that no matter what races you have in your game, the player who wants angst will create it. Drizz't (and his clones) was the prime example of what happens if you don't have an outlet for the player who wants a physical manifistation of that angst. They choose a race that is pretty much universally hated and reviled. The DM, to maintain any resembalance of any story continuity, has to deal with either party splitting up once you hit town, an encounter with the guard force that will always be about the same each time, or keep the party tied down somewhere so that the locals know the player as "their" drow/tiefling/demonspawn/purple worm.

So, we add tieflings as a race, which makes their presence somewhat normalized to the town guards, merchants and locals. Yes, the DM can add some people that don't like the "demonspawn," but the event that caused the race's "fall" was long ago history. And again, the DM could add guards that don't like elves. Or dwarves. Or humans. It is significantly easier to add a little flavor of discrimination without completely breaking continuity.

So if D&D is making the "angst" race, I thank them, and then ignore the angst for my own characters. But having a non-disruptive outlet for it is nice.

Rutee
2008-02-04, 04:35 PM
Spotmarked mentioned pretty much everything important on the subject. Really, "My ancestors booped up" is so much less angsty then "My ancestors booped a demon and I have DILUTED EVIL flowing through my veins".

EvilElitest
2008-02-04, 04:49 PM
But I guess my point is that no matter what races you have in your game, the player who wants angst will create it. Drizz't (and his clones) was the prime example of what happens if you don't have an outlet for the player who wants a physical manifistation of that angst. They choose a race that is pretty much universally hated and reviled. The DM, to maintain any resembalance of any story continuity, has to deal with either party splitting up once you hit town, an encounter with the guard force that will always be about the same each time, or keep the party tied down somewhere so that the locals know the player as "their" drow/tiefling/demonspawn/purple worm.

So, we add tieflings as a race, which makes their presence somewhat normalized to the town guards, merchants and locals. Yes, the DM can add some people that don't like the "demonspawn," but the event that caused the race's "fall" was long ago history. And again, the DM could add guards that don't like elves. Or dwarves. Or humans. It is significantly easier to add a little flavor of discrimination without completely breaking continuity.

So if D&D is making the "angst" race, I thank them, and then ignore the angst for my own characters. But having a non-disruptive outlet for it is nice.

that can be done with any race yes, however Drow, dwarves and what not were not made for that appeal. I am using 4E tielfings, i just keep them as a separate Race, call them a different name and change the back story. However WOTC is deliberately appealing to those angsty teen for this race, that is what bothers me
from
EE

Morty
2008-02-04, 04:57 PM
So, we add tieflings as a race, which makes their presence somewhat normalized to the town guards, merchants and locals. Yes, the DM can add some people that don't like the "demonspawn," but the event that caused the race's "fall" was long ago history. And again, the DM could add guards that don't like elves. Or dwarves. Or humans. It is significantly easier to add a little flavor of discrimination without completely breaking continuity.


And that's when it kind of stops sticking together. If Tieflings are a core player race, and therefore probably firmly set into gameworld, the potential for them being hated and mistrusted is significantly lower. Sure, Tieflings can be hated, but not much more than humans, dwarves, elves or whatever.
So I don't really thinks Tieflings are meant to be "angsty race". From what I've heard, they're there so that players can play "evil curious" characters, i.e be evil but not very much evil. Which still doesnt't make much sense.

EvilElitest
2008-02-04, 05:01 PM
And that's when it kind of stops making sense. If Tieflings are a core player race, and therefore probably firmly set into gameworld, the potential for them being hated and mistrusted is significantly lower. Sure, Tieflings can be hated, but not much more than humans, dwarves, elves or whatever.

i hate to seem bigoted, but if a red guy with claws, horns, glowing eyes and a giant tail wearing revealing dark leather and holding illogically hooked daggers comes into my inn, i'm getting an angry mob together
from
EE

Kioran
2008-02-04, 05:10 PM
What I find most disturbing about the Tieflings and Aasimars of 4th Ed is the lack of subtlety - Oh look, some minor signs donīt cut it anymore, lets attach ginourmous horns, flaring eyes and scaly skin - well, Tieflings can be glad they didnīt get hooves in this incarnation. Itīs somewhat stupid.
Horror movies were also replaced by "slasher flics", because some producers thought subtle horror and off-screen violence didnīt cut it. Result: These films are watched for the gore, or amusement, but arenīt really that scary anymore.

Tieflings in 4th Ed are obviously totally mutated freaks, and as such not creepy or disconcerting anymore - theyīre clearly identified, and if they are a race of evil-lite predominantly kickahss wolocks who always breed true with humans, easily and promptly genocided or at least exiled by any sane human civilization.
My Tiefling (and Aasimars) were always slightly changed humans, but could, with some skill, conceal their planetouched nature. Making you guess whether someone is a Tiefling or not, having them actually be disconcerting or creepy instead of blatant greatly increases their value as elements of the story - even for Aasimars.

That Paladin thatīs currently trying to intimidate the heck out of your group, threatening them with violence if they ever do so much as transgress near the temple vaults again? Nice. But if she, in the selfsame situation, after characters get snarky, pulls back her hood and gives an intense, menacing stare from glowing silver eyes, while calmly telling them her ancestors were beings of immeasurable glory and your petty, criminal natures would disgust her, of course never once raising her voice?
Much effect. Youīd lose it if there was nothing to reveal.

Artanis
2008-02-04, 05:13 PM
i hate to seem bigoted, but if a red guy with claws, horns, glowing eyes and a giant tail wearing revealing dark leather and holding illogically hooked daggers comes into my inn, i'm getting an angry mob together
from
EE
That's because a red guy with claws, horns, etc. is not something you, as a player, see every day. If you were sitting at Burger King and some demon-looking guy walked in, yeah, of course everybody would freak. But in DnD, they aren't that out of the ordinary, and everybody is (more or less) used to them. They may not like Tieflings and organize a mob anyways, but that would be because they don't like Tieflings, not because of the guy's horns and whatnot.

Morty
2008-02-04, 05:14 PM
i hate to seem bigoted, but if a red guy with claws, horns, glowing eyes and a giant tail wearing revealing dark leather and holding illogically hooked daggers comes into my inn, i'm getting an angry mob together


Except it looks like in 4ed it won't be the case, because Tieflings are PC race, and therefore are ulikely to have troubles getting into inns. In 4ed, horned people with tails walking the streets won't be all that unusual.

Raider
2008-02-04, 05:22 PM
I wonder if this will change the attribute pluses and minuses of the Tieflings. Now that they are commonplace core PC races will they lose their Charisma subtraction?

Tren
2008-02-04, 06:17 PM
What I find most disturbing about the Tieflings and Aasimars of 4th Ed is the lack of subtlety...
Horror movies were also replaced by "slasher flics", because some producers thought subtle horror and off-screen violence didnīt cut it. Result: These films are watched for the gore, or amusement, but arenīt really that scary anymore.

Because horns and red skin are totally analogous to gratuitous violence. But if you want to pursue the analogy, there's also gorefest movies out there that are quite scary-- they just happen to include more blood and violence. I doubt most people would consider the potential subtlety of the planetouched traits to be the defining characteristic of Aasimars and Tieflings.


Tieflings in 4th Ed are obviously totally mutated freaks, and as such not creepy or disconcerting anymore - theyīre clearly identified, and if they are a race of evil-lite predominantly kickahss wolocks who always breed true with humans, easily and promptly genocided or at least exiled by any sane human civilization.

They're not freaks if they're ubiquitous throughout the world, if even on a minor scale. Also, nobody said they were going to be predominantly warlocks, or even predominantly evil. If anything I get the sinking suspicion they'll be largely played as CG rebels, but I digress. Also, if your humans as a collective race choose to perform acts of genocide I've gotta wonder who makes the more evil characters :smallconfused:

RukiTanuki
2008-02-04, 08:07 PM
Am I the only one picking up on Brawndo Logic?

(For those who haven't seen the movie Idiocracy: here's the scene in question (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuvK1NenUQ4&feature=related).)

I'd like to discuss this, but I want to take part in a conversation where I'm presented with starting assumptions, reasoning based on those theories, and conclusions drawn from that reasoning. If someone tells me Tieflings are angsty because they're emo because they're dark and mysterious because they're cool because they're angsty... It's a bit circular, doesn't really have any evidence, doesn't follow any reasoning (it is because it is), and it's nothing more than assumptions (and as such I am expected to accept or reject it as a whole instead of disagreeing with an individual train of thought or applying a different conclusion). If you want an example of what I'd like to see, pay close attention to how I worded the following:

I'm not spending a solitary second worrying about whether my players will play a Tiefling as an angsty character. Why? Because I have no reason to believe that term, or any synonym, will appear in the Tiefling entry in the Player's Handbook. In fact, my read-through of the entry in R&C reminded me less of Sam Raimi's symbiote Spiderman, and more of, say, Beast from the X-Men: Someone with very visible physical traits and abilities beyond their control, who refuses to allow those traits to define them as a person.

Mechanics aside, I expect my players to choose a Tiefling when they wish to play a character who confronts that visible mark day after day, reminding them that they are different, that they do not belong. My players (in their twenties) handle that quite well, dropping the "woe-is-me" cop-out theme, and explore the character as they ignore other's convictions, attempt to prove them wrong, or maybe even make it clear what they should actually fear.

Others have tried to provide several examples to demonstrate that the ability to slap angst on a character does not imply that angst is the best (or even most obvious) way to express that character's problems, worries, and fears. Here's mine:
* Woe to us humans, our lives are too short to make an impact on the world.
* Woe to us dwarves, we based our entire economy and trade on a nonrenewable resource.
* Woe to us halflings, the secrets of the top shelf shall forever be lost to us.
* Woe to us half-orcs, we're considered lacking no matter who views us.
* My parents are dead! (http://www.pvponline.com/my-parents-are-dead/)
And yet we see well-crafted examples of these races and individuals every day, characters with honest problems, not manufactured angst. I have no reason to believe Tieflings cannot be played the same way; more importantly, I have no reason to believe the PHB will instruct players to play them with any forced angst.

If someone can provide a counterexample -- not that Tieflings are "cool" or "dark" or "mysterious", but that they're explicitly designed to be roleplayed as depressing characters -- and that example has better evidence than "of course that's what they're doing," I'll be glad to hear it.

P.S. Raider: PC races no longer have negatives to stats; no player race takes a penalty. Elves, for example, were shown to have +2 Dex and +2 Wisdom.

EvilElitest
2008-02-04, 08:40 PM
That's because a red guy with claws, horns, etc. is not something you, as a player, see every day. If you were sitting at Burger King and some demon-looking guy walked in, yeah, of course everybody would freak. But in DnD, they aren't that out of the ordinary, and everybody is (more or less) used to them. They may not like Tieflings and organize a mob anyways, but that would be because they don't like Tieflings, not because of the guy's horns and whatnot.

Black Adder wrote something very interesting on this topic i belive, but even so, these guys are stretching absurdity.



What I find most disturbing about the Tieflings and Aasimars of 4th Ed is the lack of subtlety - Oh look, some minor signs donīt cut it anymore, lets attach ginourmous horns, flaring eyes and scaly skin - well, Tieflings can be glad they didnīt get hooves in this incarnation. Itīs somewhat stupid.
Horror movies were also replaced by "slasher flics", because some producers thought subtle horror and off-screen violence didnīt cut it. Result: These films are watched for the gore, or amusement, but arenīt really that scary anymore.

Tieflings in 4th Ed are obviously totally mutated freaks, and as such not creepy or disconcerting anymore - theyīre clearly identified, and if they are a race of evil-lite predominantly kickahss wolocks who always breed true with humans, easily and promptly genocided or at least exiled by any sane human civilization.
My Tiefling (and Aasimars) were always slightly changed humans, but could, with some skill, conceal their planetouched nature. Making you guess whether someone is a Tiefling or not, having them actually be disconcerting or creepy instead of blatant greatly increases their value as elements of the story - even for Aasimars

my players yelled at me today when i considered introducing tieflings in the game, it scared me. But very good point
from
EE

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-05, 01:01 PM
From the standpoint of verisimilitude, I prefer the traits to show up due to bloodline, rather than the whole Faustian "You shall be marked with the sins of your father" crap that 4Ed seems to be heading towards(Assmodeus being elevated to AssmoDEIus, devils being charming fallen angels, demons being mindless brutes, etc.). I suspect Hasbro or whichever company now owns WotC is caving to certain groups who were never going to buy D&D even if it crapped sunshine and peace. Know your audience.:smallannoyed:

Blackadder
2008-02-05, 01:49 PM
To paraphrase what I said before in response to what EE responded to Artanis about Tieflings.

I said in another thread(Week or two back) that one expects Horned and Tailed Tieflings to generate lots of hate and fear among most people. Faerun, Ebberon, Greyhawk, any of the established worlds an obvious Tiefling is going to have the peasants and the town guard running for the torch's and the pitchforks faster than you can say "Angry Mob" However, out in the planes, Tieflings are not out of the ordinary, in fact it's very common to run into Tieflings or Aasimars in someplace like Sigil, or the Outlands. We expect to run into throw-backs like them out where the Demon's romp and play and the Celestials visit with common folks.

In Neverwinter? Not such much.

The worst thing is of course, is that despite the obvious physical manifestations of evil, that Tieflings are totally accepted in 4.0. Despite the fact that their reason is due to the fact their parents/grandparents signed deals with the most evil creations in existence.

I mean come the @$ck on, you mean to tell me that if you were walking around today and you ran into a say... the grandson Osama Eichmann Hitler who by the way, totally looks like a demon and your going to be just fine with him? Perhaps with time, but again that's what I mean, there should rightly be massive Tiefling discrimination. Instead of great-grandmother bumping uglies with a demon or Devil willingly or unwillingly, now their great-grand-parents actively signed deals with the most foul creatures in EXISTENCE. Period!

Blackadder
2008-02-05, 01:55 PM
On another note, I wish I could find the old Planescape Tiefling tables. A good page and a half worth of traits that Tieflings would have, none of this Horned and Tailed business. If you were a Tiefling your "corruption" would show up as anything from a tail(Standard, Scaley or Barbed) Horns(One, Two, Three, Eighteen) very cold/very hot skin, Dirt marks, Various glowing eyes. Triple jointed limbs.

In other words, all sorts of subtle things that a Tiefling could hide with enough skill but would tip off anyone activly looking for something out of the ordinary. The very obvious horns, tails and goat legs bit came later. Meanwhile Aasimar had the same, keeping in mind Aasimar could be desended from Deva's as well as Beastland's guardians so everything from glowing eyes to beard's that looked like mane's to hooves or horns of their own.

Telonius
2008-02-05, 01:56 PM
Aadimars can't really fit as "related" to tieflings as you never hear of making pacts with angels.

Yeah, that's reserved for Clerics and Paladins.

Kioran
2008-02-05, 02:01 PM
The worst thing is of course, is that despite the obvious physical manifestations of evil, that Tieflings are totally accepted in 4.0. Despite the fact that their reason is due to the fact their parents/grandparents signed deals with the most evil creations in existence.

I mean come the @$ck on, you mean to tell me that if you were walking around today and you ran into a say... the grandson Osama Eichmann Hitler who by the way, totally looks like a demon and your going to be just fine with him? Perhaps with time, but again that's what I mean, there should rightly be massive Tiefling discrimination. Instead of great-grandmother bumping uglies with a demon or Devil willingly or unwillingly, now their great-grand-parents actively signed deals with the most foul creatures in EXISTENCE. Period!

Total agreement. And not only are they the children of Osama Milosevic-Hitler, they also have a disposition towards evil and carry a taint that fully transfers to any children they sire with the stupid, desperate (voluntarily) and the helpless (involuntarily, and since they carry a dispostion towards evil, you can bet it happens).
A 3rd Ed Tiefling is redeemable - his blood may be tainted and his soul burdened, but he could conceivably break free. A 4th Ed Tiefling could as well, but while he could find a noble purpose in life, his descendants will be disfigured (by sane human standards), twisted mockeries of humans drawn to evil, while the 3rd Ed Tieflings blood dilutes, which is at least some comfort. Oh, and thereīs definitely no Tieflimars or Dawnwings (Erynies/Angel hybrids, homebrew) in 4th Ed. Corruption wins out, because itīs allegedly cool.
Throw in the fact that 3rd edition Tieflings are more subtle and easy to conceal, and you have damn good reason why the prosecution of 4th Ed Tieflings should be several orders of magnitude more severe.

Rutee
2008-02-05, 02:04 PM
The worst thing is of course, is that despite the obvious physical manifestations of evil, that Tieflings are totally accepted in 4.0. Despite the fact that their reason is due to the fact their parents/grandparents signed deals with the most evil creations in existence.

I mean come the @$ck on, you mean to tell me that if you were walking around today and you ran into a say... the grandson Osama Eichmann Hitler who by the way, totally looks like a demon and your going to be just fine with him? Perhaps with time, but again that's what I mean, there should rightly be massive Tiefling discrimination. Instead of great-grandmother bumping uglies with a demon or Devil willingly or unwillingly, now their great-grand-parents actively signed deals with the most foul creatures in EXISTENCE. Period!

...Uh, hasn't there already been time? Like, a lot of it? I thought that was the whole point. And when did signing an infernal pact become more evil then willingly* sleeping with demons? Tentatively, I'm going to say "If there were weird people running around since my birth, and they're a fact of life, I'd probably not mind them". I can think of oppressed groups in real life I 'should' be biased against due to how I was raised, but I don't seem to mind them either, though, so.

Kioran
2008-02-05, 02:16 PM
...Uh, hasn't there already been time? Like, a lot of it? I thought that was the whole point. And when did signing an infernal pact become more evil then willingly* sleeping with demons? Tentatively, I'm going to say "If there were weird people running around since my birth, and they're a fact of life, I'd probably not mind them". I can think of oppressed groups in real life I 'should' be biased against due to how I was raised, but I don't seem to mind them either, though, so.

Willing is a continuum, but if you consider Polymorph, alter Self or similiar to be unwilling, well, it still happens, and abortions were rare back then. These descendants, even if they end up as Cambions or Tieflings, are even to be pitied, albeit in a limited fashion. Even then, taking a Succubus/Erynies to bed would, depending on the circumstances, being desperate, stupid or hormonal. Willing signing over your unborn children to gain power and unleashing a lasting, irremovable taint on humanity is several degrees more evil and totally abhorrent.

Also, no Afros, Jews, Poles, frenchman or whathaveyou have ever threatened my 27/32 german existence in an significant way, neither have I threatened the fundamentals of your existence or your descendants. Tieflings in 4th Ed. carry a taint they will pass on to your descendants and the world as a whole, sooner or later dooming humanity. Thatīs a lot different. In this world, I might have problems with others based on social development, but Tieflings are going to corrupt the offspring of all humans they bed with, creating more miserable Tieflings to be drawn to evil and spread the taint. Iīd be worried, in the least, if only because the unintentionally wipe out uncorrupted humans by merely existing.

Rutee
2008-02-05, 02:31 PM
Willing is a continuum, but if you consider Polymorph, alter Self or similiar to be unwilling, well, it still happens, and abortions were rare back then. These descendants, even if they end up as Cambions or Tieflings, are even to be pitied, albeit in a limited fashion. Even then, taking a Succubus/Erynies to bed would, depending on the circumstances, being desperate, stupid or hormonal. Willing signing over your unborn children to gain power and unleashing a lasting, irremovable taint on humanity is several degrees more evil and totally abhorrent.
I forgot to clarify; Willing or not in truth, how do you think it's going to be taken? Do you /really/ think a stranger is going to assume your grandparents, et al, were raped, or that they took a succubus or whatnot to bed? And taking a Succy/Erinyes to bed is hormonal? No more or less then any other seduction attempt. It strikes me as something most people simply aren't going to resist being able to do, on grounds of supernatural sexiness.


Also, no Afros, Jews, Poles, frenchman or whathaveyou have ever threatened my 27/32 german existence in an significant way, neither have I threatened the fundamentals of your existence or your descendants. Tieflings in 4th Ed. carry a taint they will pass on to your descendants and the world as a whole, sooner or later dooming humanity. Thatīs a lot different. In this world, I might have problems with others based on social development, but Tieflings are going to corrupt the offspring of all humans they bed with, creating more miserable Tieflings to be drawn to evil and spread the taint. Iīd be worried, in the least, if only because the unintentionally wipe out uncorrupted humans by merely existing.
Tieflings aren't out to threaten my existence either. At least, not moreso then humans, even if their great grandparents were. If I were Chinese, would you suggest I fear people from Mongolia? That appears to be the line of reasoning here. "This person's ancestors had it out for your ancestors" is not the same thing as "This person has it out for you".

Blackadder
2008-02-05, 02:32 PM
Question, did the Tielfing empire ever clean up it's act?

Or in other words, why exactly did everyone forgive them? Here they were, traditional evil empire, they sign on with even MORE evil, the personifications of evil, and one hundred years later everyone's fine with that? Was there a period where this Empire was a bastion of hope, joy and small cute animals? Otherwise it seems these people would still be discriminated against still disliked and out-right hated.

spotmarkedx
2008-02-05, 02:35 PM
The worst thing is of course, is that despite the obvious physical manifestations of evil, that Tieflings are totally accepted in 4.0. Despite the fact that their reason is due to the fact their parents/grandparents signed deals with the most evil creations in existence.
I think the problem is that you are missing a few dozen "great-"s in there. I mean, yes. Were I the grandson of, say, Adolf Hitler, I certainly wouldn't be likely to let it be known in any way. Now if my ancestor was, say instead, Nobunaga Oda. Or Brutus. Or Ghengis Khan. That wouldn't be that much of a stigma. Further, I can see finding some amusing enjoyment about being able to tie my family tree to something that far back.

Now lets remove it another step. Tieflings are from an empire, the leaders of which did some weird pact thing to get their powers. So I'm not the progeny of Ghengis Khan, I'm now the progeny of a surrepticious meeting in Yurt#357 of Ghengis Khan's Golden Horde. So from a populace level look at things, the history shows that not everyone who first got this stigma were directly involved, and since there is a large enough population pool, there are probably stories of "J'hon Do, Blood Winged Paladin, Virtuous Slayer of the Demon Spawn of the Black Pits" and "Jhaine Do, Mistress Warlock of the Black, Savior of East Genericsity" floating around there as well.

And again: yes, I admit that there will likely be people that would not like tieflings in the generic D&D world. You can even run under the assumption that they are even more likely to be discriminated against, sure. My point, is that unless you decide to rachet the hate levels of NPCs vs. Tieflings to Drow levels (hard to reason for this, as the Drow are currently active in their racial evil, instead of it having happened some long ago century), you can have some level of discrimination, but not have it take over your game each and every time the party goes to the town to get supplies.

Rutee
2008-02-05, 02:35 PM
Question, did the Tielfing empire ever clean up it's act?

Or in other words, why exactly did everyone forgive them? Here they were, traditional evil empire, they sign on with even MORE evil, the personifications of evil, and one hundred years later everyone's fine with that? Was there a period where this Empire was a bastion of hope, joy and small cute animals? Otherwise it seems these people would still be discriminated against still disliked and out-right hated.

THey collapsed, in the default fluff, so I'd hazard a no. As to why they're being forgiven, wouldn't you? Look at your own heritage. I'm sure people of a given race or past country has screwed you over. Do you hold this against their descendants? I'm serious, I don't get how you can justify this kind of hatred or bigotry being held onto when they've been living among you for hundreds of years. Humans sure have /done/ it, and continue to do so, but that doesn't make it more comprehensible to me.

Blackadder
2008-02-05, 02:37 PM
Tieflings aren't out to threaten my existence either. At least, not moreso then humans, even if their great grandparents were. If I were Chinese, would you suggest I fear people from Mongolia? That appears to be the line of reasoning here. "This person's ancestors had it out for your ancestors" is not the same thing as "This person has it out for you".
Have you been to China? They sure as hell discriminate against non-chineese in China. Ever heard of Middle kingdom complex? That's been a long running issue in China, in the past fifty years America has aquire the same issue. That being assuming we are automatically better than anyone else, the Chinese have been doing it for fifteen hundred years now.

horseboy
2008-02-05, 02:41 PM
Question, did the Tielfing empire ever clean up it's act?

Or in other words, why exactly did everyone forgive them? Here they were, traditional evil empire, they sign on with even MORE evil, the personifications of evil, and one hundred years later everyone's fine with that? Was there a period where this Empire was a bastion of hope, joy and small cute animals? Otherwise it seems these people would still be discriminated against still disliked and out-right hated.
That would be a setting by setting call.

Kioran
2008-02-05, 02:41 PM
Tieflings aren't out to threaten my existence either. At least, not moreso then humans, even if their great grandparents were. If I were Chinese, would you suggest I fear people from Mongolia? That appears to be the line of reasoning here. "This person's ancestors had it out for your ancestors" is not the same thing as "This person has it out for you".

No. Just no. A half chinese/mongol child will not be significantly different from either parent and can be adopted into any of the two cultures if that parent so chooses - the current state of the U.S.A. or most modern countries prove that while itīs neither automatic nor flawless, adaption happens. These children are, on a whole, neither much dumber/smarter nore more or less beatiful/ugly.

Tieflings always sire Tieflings. These Tieflings will always be disfigured(by grwoing horns and stuff, in essence being tieflings), morally tainted and metaphysically corrupted. Your child with a Tiefling will be a Tiefling, it will always sire Tieflings, and it will be drawn to evil like a Tiefling. In the essence, their taint has expunged your humanity from the bloodline of your descendants.
Any humans associating with Tieflings will strengthen the Tieflings. Any Tiefling associating with Humans will strengthen the Tieflings. Unless humans genocide them or strictly refrain from associating with them at all, the Tieflings are going to win out in the End.

That Erynies or Succubus/Incubus? Well, theyīll taint your bloodline, placing parts of your humanity in the Devils/Demonīs hands. However, that Evil dilutes, and theyīll also place a smidgen of fiendish powers in the hands of humanity. All in all, humanity doesnīt necessarily lose.

However, any human associating with 4th Ed Tieflings loses. Hard. Always.

Rutee
2008-02-05, 02:42 PM
Have you been to China? They sure as hell discriminate against non-chineese in China. Ever heard of Middle kingdom complex? That's been a long running issue in China, in the past fifty years America has aquire the same issue. That being assuming we are automatically better than anyone else, the Chinese have been doing it for fifteen hundred years now.
I know it happens. People as a whole are stupid, it's not something the Chinese have a monopoly on. I asked if you could justify it somehow. If you want to rule that the people of your world are equally as stupid as the ones in ours, have at it, but I don't think this brand of stupidity will make things interesting, just frustrating. And I don't really see it happening any more for Tieflings then for Dwarves, Elves, or whatever else have you, at this point.



Tieflings always sire Tieflings. These Tieflings will always be disfigured(by grwoing horns and stuff, in essence being tieflings), morally tainted and metaphysically corrupted. Your child with a Tiefling will be a Tiefling, it will always sire Tieflings, and it will be drawn to evil like a Tiefling. In the essence, their taint has expunged your humanity from the bloodline of your descendants.
Any humans associating with Tieflings will strengthen the Tieflings. Any Tiefling associating with Humans will strengthen the Tieflings. Unless humans genocide them or strictly refrain from associating with them at all, the Tieflings are going to win out in the End.

Edit: Tieflings are by default evil now? Are we reading hte same preview book here?

I'll admit humanity is stupid enough to have a retarded us/them outlook in terms of species, but you're still the one assuming there's a percolating war. It's hardly a necessity, in any sense. If you want to run it like that in your games, have at it, but I sincerely doubt it's a necessity.

spotmarkedx
2008-02-05, 02:47 PM
Edit: Tieflings are by default evil now? Are we reading hte same preview book here?I'm pretty sure I at least have the same print version as youself :smallamused:

horseboy
2008-02-05, 03:02 PM
Okay, I would like to interject a little into this.
They have stated that tieflings will be the "bad boys and girls" that will allow players to "flirt with being evil." How exactly are they going to be doing this? WE DON'T KNOW! Until we get copies of the PHB we won't know if it's just some little dangling bit of fluff many players will truncate, or, I don't know, they'll have Malkavanesque compulsions that will require will rolls to keep them from doing certain "bad" or "evil" things. Pfft! WotC may even have something even more messed up. But the crunch behind the race is going to make or break the verisimilitude in places like FR where they've only been around for 100 years. If they've proven themselves to be as untrustworthy as oh, say the Zenthirum (sp) then yes, if they don't get run out of town pretty quick it's not going to make much sense. Likewise if they don't have a reason to be "the bad boys and girls flirting with evil" then WotC failed in their stated mission of the race and we have to ask "Why bother adding them in?"

It's all bordering on "If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit," and I think my head is about to explode.

Edit: Or perhaps a little directed, what should the repercussions of their "bad" and "evil" be? There are repercussions to spiking puppies. How/why are these tieflings spiking these puppies? We just don't know enough to know how this is going to settle into their settings.

Rutee
2008-02-05, 03:07 PM
Okay, I would like to interject a little into this.
They have stated that tieflings will be the "bad boys and girls" that will allow players to "flirt with being evil." How exactly are they going to be doing this? WE DON'T KNOW! Until we get copies of the PHB we won't know if it's just some little dangling bit of fluff many players will truncate, or, I don't know, they'll have Malkavanesque compulsions that will require will rolls to keep them from doing certain "bad" or "evil" things. Pfft! WotC may even have something even more messed up. But the crunch behind the race is going to make or break the verisimilitude in places like FR where they've only been around for 100 years. If they've proven themselves to be as untrustworthy as oh, say the Zenthirum (sp) then yes, if they don't get run out of town pretty quick it's not going to make much sense. Likewise if they don't have a reason to be "the bad boys and girls flirting with evil" then WotC failed in their stated mission of the race and we have to ask "Why bother adding them in?"

It's all bordering on "If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit," and I think my head is about to explode.

I kinda read the "Bad boys" as referring to the Anti-Hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiHero) who will Shoot the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheDog), not to "Be utterly evil", personally.

spotmarkedx
2008-02-05, 03:12 PM
Okay, I would like to interject a little into this.
They have stated that tieflings will be the "bad boys and girls" that will allow players to "flirt with being evil." How exactly are they going to be doing this? WE DON'T KNOW! Until we get copies of the PHB we won't know if it's just some little dangling bit of fluff many players will truncate, or, I don't know, they'll have Malkavanesque compulsions that will require will rolls to keep them from doing certain "bad" or "evil" things. Pfft! WotC may even have something even more messed up. But the crunch behind the race is going to make or break the verisimilitude in places like FR where they've only been around for 100 years. If they've proven themselves to be as untrustworthy as oh, say the Zenthirum (sp) then yes, if they don't get run out of town pretty quick it's not going to make much sense. Likewise if they don't have a reason to be "the bad boys and girls flirting with evil" then WotC failed in their stated mission of the race and we have to ask "Why bother adding them in?"

It's all bordering on "If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit," and I think my head is about to explode.

Edit: Or perhaps a little directed, what should the repercussions of their "bad" and "evil" be? There are repercussions to spiking puppies. How/why are these tieflings spiking these puppies? We just don't know enough to know how this is going to settle into their settings.Note that even when talking about characters going on the dark side, it is referred to in the guide as "evil-curious", not "evil". I doubt there will be "spiking puppies"

I occasionally like playing the rogue. In the Han Solo style, where he shoots Greedo under the table at a bar first, because it was easier than talking to Jabba. Yes, he eventually does good things, but it was all about the money at first. That is the level of evil that I am reading from the book. Same thing with warlocks. "I have this power to send people through the depths of hell. It's not evil if I only use this on bad guys right?"

horseboy
2008-02-05, 03:21 PM
I kinda read the "Bad boys" as referring to the Anti-Hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiHero) who will Shoot the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheDog), not to "Be utterly evil", personally.

Eh, I'm looking at 90's Anti heroes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinetiesAntiHero). After all Frank is wanted by every law enforcement agency in the WORLD, and Lobo, well, Lobo...yeah. They have repercussions for their actions, for WotC to say that they don't totally points, to Spikeification. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Spikeification)

Rutee
2008-02-05, 03:30 PM
Eh, I'm looking at 90's Anti heroes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinetiesAntiHero). After all Frank is wanted by every law enforcement agency in the WORLD, and Lobo, well, Lobo...yeah. They have repercussions for their actions, for WotC to say that they don't totally points, to Spikeification. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Spikeification)


Um.... no? If WotC says they have no repercussions for their actions, it breaks Verisimilitude (Just as anyone ELSE having no repercussions for their actions does), but it's not Spikeification. Spikeification refers to turning someone awesome into a wuss because they think the wuss will be liked better. If you're going to quote TV Tropes, read the articles you're quoting from.

Also frankly, 90s Anti-Heroes sucked, IMO. Rob Liefeld and what's-his-face the Spawn guy are often associated with, to my knowledge, the Dark Age of Comics.

horseboy
2008-02-05, 04:02 PM
Um.... no? If WotC says they have no repercussions for their actions, it breaks Verisimilitude (Just as anyone ELSE having no repercussions for their actions does), but it's not Spikeification. Spikeification refers to turning someone awesome into a wuss because they think the wuss will be liked better. If you're going to quote TV Tropes, read the articles you're quoting from.Spikeification is the only way I can think to combine those two statements. An impotent anit-hero.


Also frankly, 90s Anti-Heroes sucked, IMO. Rob Liefeld and what's-his-face the Spawn guy are often associated with, to my knowledge, the Dark Age of Comics.See, personally I hate Capes, so found 90's to be a welcome breath of fresh air. Love the Zarathos, Castle, & Death Dealer.

Rutee
2008-02-05, 04:03 PM
Spikeification is the only way I can think to combine those two statements. An impotent anit-hero.
...You never said a word about impotent before, and nothing about "Not living with the downsides of your actions' says "Impotent" to me. Why don't you start from the beginning?

Artanis
2008-02-05, 05:03 PM
Honest question: do we actually know how long it's been since the Tiefling empire was around?

I ask because if it fell like, twenty years ago, then yeah, "your ancestors were evil" would make more sense. But if it's been a dozen centuries, hating Tieflings based on what their ancestors had done makes just as little sense as hating Italian people just because the Romans had a tendency to toss people they didn't like into the arena as lion-bait.

horseboy
2008-02-05, 05:36 PM
...You never said a word about impotent before, and nothing about "Not living with the downsides of your actions' says "Impotent" to me. Why don't you start from the beginning?
:smallredface: I did skip a step in the explanation didn't I? It's a bad habit I have. Especially after my head has exploded from the monkey.

Alright, let's just deal in base concepts here and not get so muddled in semantics. Let's say we're building a game. In this game we are going to build a race that's there to facilitate Anti-heroes. So we'll build them around traditional anti-hero concepts. Loner, physical marks to ensure celibacy or "wanton wickedness"(What? Rules 34 & 36 say there's someone out there right now whacking it to those tiefling pics), ancestry issues that lead to "ultimate powah", and lots of black leather. That's great. Now one of the "draws" of the anti-hero is that they're fighting not only the BBEG, but also society as well (when society itself isn't the BBEG).

But, some yahoo, in an effort to broaden the market for this race decided that not everyone who will want to play this race will want to have to deal with the "emotional baggage" of an anti-hero. So we're going to make them as socially acceptable as any other race.

We now have a race that works against a society that accepts it. Why does a society accept someone that rejects them? Because they're not a threat. Hence, they're impotent.

Why are they Impotent? Or, why does society consider them not to be enough of a threat that they aren't suspicious of them, especially given their disdain for their mores?

Anti-heroes are constantly undermining society, but D&D society isn't supposed to care, as the race of anti-heroes are all equally accepted. If they're not impotent, then they're not being held responsible for their actions.

Or they're not really anti-heroes.

It all doesn't make sense.

AslanCross
2008-02-05, 05:44 PM
"Supposed to be funny." unfortunately isn't the same thing as "is funny."

Edit: Has anyone seen a male tiefling in the 4th edition stuff?

One of the articles on the WOTC site about Warlocks and Tieflings had a male Tiefling sketch. He actually kind of looked like Morthos, the iconic CArc warlock, just with horns.

tyckspoon
2008-02-05, 05:58 PM
Or they're not really anti-heroes.


Ding! Tieflings are borrowing the appearance of an anti-hero archetype, but so far nothing has been released that says they're actually all meant to be anti-heroes. They're another humans-in-funny-suits race. The racial origin is supposed to be a little cooler than being a human, yes, but it doesn't really have to have any impact on any current tiefling.

Rutee
2008-02-05, 06:08 PM
But, some yahoo, in an effort to broaden the market for this race decided that not everyone who will want to play this race will want to have to deal with the "emotional baggage" of an anti-hero. So we're going to make them as socially acceptable as any other race.
This is sensical. Is what makes Batman an Anti-hero the fact that he's white, or the fact that he /acts/ like one?


We now have a race that works against a society that accepts it. Why does a society accept someone that rejects them? Because they're not a threat. Hence, they're impotent.
I think you're operating under the assumption that all Tieflings are working as antiheroes. This is strange to me. I took it as a PC thing, not "An all NPCs do this" thing. That's what your ENTIRE POINT is boiling down to really.


It all doesn't make sense.
You're correct, putting a hat on the entire race doesn't make sense. It never does.

horseboy
2008-02-05, 06:19 PM
This is sensical. Is what makes Batman an Anti-hero the fact that he's white, or the fact that he /acts/ like one? Sensical? That's not in dictionary.com, so I'm not certain what you meant. They're not trying to make "Batman" they're trying to make a race of "Batpeople".


I think you're operating under the assumption that all Tieflings are working as antiheroes. This is strange to me. I took it as a PC thing, not "An all NPCs do this" thing. That's what your ENTIRE POINT is boiling down to really.Yup, if they're building a race to be anti-heroes, they either have to have a disposition towards anti-hero or are anti-anti-hero, which wouldn't that be the Aasimar?


You're correct, putting a hat on the entire race doesn't make sense. It never does.Yet they do it anyway.

Rutee
2008-02-05, 06:25 PM
Sensical? That's not in dictionary.com, so I'm not certain what you meant. They're not trying to make "Batman" they're trying to make a race of "Batpeople".
...No, they're really not. You did that. I don't see anything here that says the race as a whole is anti-heroes. They /do/ seem to fully expect them to be used as such by players. Seriously, have you read the preview?

horseboy
2008-02-05, 06:36 PM
...No, they're really not. You did that. I don't see anything here that says the race as a whole is anti-heroes. They /do/ seem to fully expect them to be used as such by players. Seriously, have you read the preview?
They're selling them as "great for anti-heroes"(to paraphrase). My question is, what makes them better for anti-heroness than any other race? Especially if you can't use the races built in history to justify the trope.

Rutee
2008-02-05, 06:51 PM
...The part where they're still a little bit demonic, even if it wasn't by choice. It gives you just a little bit better of an excuse "to go medieval". They're also compared to rebels and less amusingly, rebellious teenagers. Also, typically loner, etc. Further, it makes a bit more sense to express one's dark side through a slightly demonic character.

Though I stand corrected, /one/ of the designers was interested in their angst.

Doomsy
2008-02-05, 07:05 PM
...THE FIENDISH DESCENDANT HAS HORNS! KILL IT, ITS A DRAENEI RIPOFF

Good lord, did you read what you wrote? And yes, a Blood Elf is basically an Elf iwth glowy eyes. They're not that distinct visually.


I was making a joke. I know it's hard to tell sometimes in text.


Also, exactly how many Fiends *do* have huge horns again? Just off the top off your head?
Huge bullish-style ones?
I'm sure the D&D artists carefully looked at all of the fiends and then decided to make a generic satyr-type demon that has roughly the same style as the Draenei, since they basically worked off the same premise.

It's not a rip-off so much as an utter tearing away of unique characteristics. Personally? I'd have totally skipped the bull-like features for a species whose traditional role has been more as sneaks and rogues and gone for something more suitable for that, but it's obvious what archetype they're working towards - an easily identifiable and painfully generic, "HEY WE'RE DEMON GUYS" look which to me is kind of a lame cop-out.

Not to mention a bit of disinformation, since I at least at first glance would assume something built with distinctly bull/goat like themes would be a heavy melee combatant ala Hellboy more than the actual in game portrayal of Tieflings.

But this is D&D, where dark skin is a sign of evil and blondes love justice. Subtlety is not their strong suit.

Tren
2008-02-05, 07:32 PM
a generic satyr-type demon that has roughly the same style as the Draenei, since they basically worked off the same premise.

I missed the part where the Draenei had horns and had their parents sell their souls. :smallwink:


It's not a rip-off so much as an utter tearing away of unique characteristics.

You keep claiming this connection or rip-off, but you haven't really provided anything to support it. About the only real connection I see is that they both have tails, and are both vaguely demon-associated.


Personally? I'd have totally skipped the bull-like features for a species whose traditional role has been more as sneaks and rogues and gone for something more suitable for that, but it's obvious what archetype they're working towards - an easily identifiable and painfully generic, "HEY WE'RE DEMON GUYS" look which to me is kind of a lame cop-out.

I think you responded to your own concern here; the new tiefling is not the same as the old tiefling. I don't think anyone's trying to claim it is. Though many of us are fine with the new concept and don't mind "demon guys". Also, 3E tieflings make just as good of wizards as they do rogues.


But this is D&D, where dark skin is a sign of evil and blondes love justice. Subtlety is not their strong suit.

QFT.

Doomsy
2008-02-05, 08:18 PM
Yeah, I rambled. It's a bad idea to come back to a half-written post after dealing with some things and try to pick it right up.

Basically, my point was, I think, that they're not really derivative so much as sharing the burden of being a somewhat uninspired designs. Saved by a few quirks with the Draenei in terms of both coloring and fluff. Tieflings got the full cliched demon-kid bat from the looks of things, tho.

Which is what I don't like about 4th Ed Tieflings. My favorite Tiefling thing was that they tended to have a variety of looks reflecting the fact that they were basically the byblows of fiends than an organized race. One of the old Planescape books actually had a random chart generator for their appearance and a few odd effects of having a demon or a devil back in the family tree. It was one of the things that really made me like them.

They were not so much a race as a bunch of accidents that were left to fend for themselves. I'll miss that.

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-05, 09:32 PM
3.5 Tieflings permanently corrupt their line as well(barring magical removal or something), but at least it doesn't show up in every single descendant. Besides, you may not have slept with Dretch #324324234. Your great great great grand-pappy might have taken levels in Acolyte of the Skin, or he was possessed by a Fiend of Possession, or he was incubating Devil Chills when he boinked GGG grand-mammy. As it stands in 4.0, Tieflings are the results of GGGGP signing a deal with a Fiend of Blasphemy or something. Again, I spit upon the Faustian overtones.:smallyuk:

EvilElitest
2008-02-05, 11:37 PM
As to why they're being forgiven, wouldn't you?

you have a very bright view on human nature don't you


Now lets be honest, if i see a guy with the horns and what not, i'm going to my local church and starting an angry mob. If i know that he ancestors willing drew infernal magic to make them evil bastard, then i'm going to lynch him

3E tielfings could hide or excuse their trait (The skin is just a bad sunburn, honest) but these guys are just to unworldly
from
EE

Kioran
2008-02-06, 03:14 AM
You're correct, putting a hat on the entire race doesn't make sense. It never does.

It is, however, what WotC does - a race must have a strong "racial archetype", or it gets the boot, like gnomes did. The Tiefling racial archetype is "bad boy in leather, drawn to evil".
Well crikey. Of course weīll have deviants. Thereīs always deviants. But the majority of the race will be a bunch of annoying a**holes tht sooner or later turn the entire human race into a**sholes. Exiling them or genociding them is nothing less than self defense.....

Rutee
2008-02-06, 03:25 AM
It is, however, what WotC does - a race must have a strong "racial archetype", or it gets the boot, like gnomes did. The Tiefling racial archetype is "bad boy in leather, drawn to evil".
Well crikey. Of course weīll have deviants. Thereīs always deviants. But the majority of the race will be a bunch of annoying a**holes tht sooner or later turn the entire human race into a**sholes. Exiling them or genociding them is nothing less than self defense.....

I can't tell if your post is tongue in cheek or not. The second half is too ludicrous.

Kioran
2008-02-06, 03:44 AM
I can't tell if your post is tongue in cheek or not. The second half is too ludicrous.

The first half most emphatically isnīt - there is a racial archetype, and for that archetype to be true, a general tendency in behaviour. Back when "punk" was first used as insult, thatīs exactly the kind of people it was meant for.

Combine the with the fact that they always breed true, and the following picture appears:

- a single Tiefling comes to your village
- she/he founds a family
- their descedants procreate
- with each generation, youīll have a higher percentage of Tieflings, and short of euthanasia no way to turn the clock back

Now everybody becoming something different isnīt always bad - maybe itīs change, ladeeda. But what are they changing into? Ah yes, annoying punks.

Put it together. Tolerate even a single Tiefling, and humanity is headed down the slippery slope towards evil/unproductivity, at least in your population. Chasing of that Tiefling (if youīre merciful) or killing it (if youīre not) is self defense...........

ShadowSiege
2008-02-06, 03:45 AM
Now lets be honest, if i see a guy with the horns and what not, i'm going to my local church and starting an angry mob. If i know that he ancestors willing drew infernal magic to make them evil bastard, then i'm going to lynch him

3E tielfings could hide or excuse their trait (The skin is just a bad sunburn, honest) but these guys are just to unworldly

So the sins of the (great great great... grand)father are put upon the son? That's ridiculous, and arguably idiotic. The descendants of the depraved people that actually made the pact are just victims. If anything, you're playing right into the plans of the fiends by trying to kill the tieflings.

People tend towards just wanting to be left alone, especially in D&D where everything is out to kill you. There's a lot weirder and more harmful stuff in the D&D world than tieflings. If the guy isn't causing any harm, he'll get ignored. If he is, call up the local heroes.

Kioran
2008-02-06, 03:51 AM
So the sins of the (great great great... grand)father are put upon the son? That's ridiculous, and arguably idiotic. The descendants of the depraved people that actually made the pact are just victims. If anything, you're playing right into the plans of the fiends by trying to kill the tieflings.

Itīs not the sins of his ancestors that are the problem, itīs the sins of his descendants, who will all be drawn to evil like him. Leaving that Tiefling alive is actual in the best interest of the fiends since it will spawn another bunch of thralls selling their souls for power, at least more of them than a human would have.

Rutee
2008-02-06, 04:00 AM
Itīs not the sins of his ancestors that are the problem, itīs the sins of his descendants, who will all be drawn to evil like him. Leaving that Tiefling alive is actual in the best interest of the fiends since it will spawn another bunch of thralls selling their souls for power, at least more of them than a human would have.

I suppose we should also lock up poor minority men, since they're statistically likely to commit crimes, and have a cultural impetus to do so.

Sure, it's not a genetic one, but really, what does the reason matter, so much as the result?

ShadowSiege
2008-02-06, 04:51 AM
Itīs not the sins of his ancestors that are the problem, itīs the sins of his descendants, who will all be drawn to evil like him. Leaving that Tiefling alive is actual in the best interest of the fiends since it will spawn another bunch of thralls selling their souls for power, at least more of them than a human would have.

Except they aren't drawn to evil. They're marked by the pact of their ancestors, but not beholden to devils (nor particularly drawn to them, at least no more so than any other race). One telling of the Greek myth of Phaeton, the mortal son of Helios, has it that the chariot veered near to the world over Africa, burning the skin of the inhabitants, giving them their dark color, and that it was passed on to their descendants. Similar thing going on here: the act of a powerful immortal (Helios letting Phaeton drive the chariot of the sun/devils making a bargain with the nobles of the now-dead empire) has changed a mortal bloodline, changing their appearance in perpetuity.

Rutee
2008-02-06, 04:57 AM
Well, by the Races and Classes thing, they are slightly predisposed to evil. But it's not heavy, and despite my search and Kioran's insistence that they wear a hat related to morality, the Races and Classes preview doesn't breath a /word/ on the 'standard' tiefling, in these terms. The closest they come? They're not very spiritual, and generally don't become clerics or paladins. They're also very closely tied to the Art of the Deal, which makes meta-sense.

Hm, actually, given that they're still outsiders a bit, and that they're mercantile-driven.. I imagine that they're the types to be travelling merchants or smugglers, as a racial hat, not brooding antiheroes or TEH EBIL CULTISTS. Pretty much everything given re: Them and anti-heroes is done from a meta-perspective.

Kami2awa
2008-02-06, 05:07 AM
To be honest, there's still huge opportunity for "Alas, I'm misunderstood and lonely, as I'm the only pure-hearted member of otherwise fiendish race", even though "I'm outcast because I'm neither mortal nor demon" and the like go through the window.

Hmm there's potential there for a really nasty character who just THINKS he's pure hearted, like In Nomine's Habalites.

Kioran
2008-02-06, 05:59 AM
I suppose we should also lock up poor minority men, since they're statistically likely to commit crimes, and have a cultural impetus to do so.

Sure, it's not a genetic one, but really, what does the reason matter, so much as the result?

One can remove the cultural impetus - middle class afro-americans, for example, are actually less likely to become criminals than the average, as others. If criminality bothers you, it can be combated in a lot of ways, better education and employment programs (in Woodland/Desert-Camouflage........) being among the more effective and prominent.

But if thereīs an absolute, irrefutable genetic impetus(3E Tieflings have it as well) and no way to dilute itīs threat, well, yes, itīs something you cannot defend against culturally. Any defense against it is going to be, well, genetic. The only correcting influence on genetics is the cessation of reproduction, either through isolation or death. Unlike the real world, humans in 4th Ed can make a case for defending their race and fighting for the survival of untainted humans.

Morty
2008-02-06, 11:16 AM
It's funny how seriously people can debate about a fairly ridiculous race that was most likely added to be "the cool, demonic, evil-but-not-too-much guys". I know I've been in discussions like that few times, but it's still funny.

horseboy
2008-02-06, 11:26 AM
Well, by the Races and Classes thing, they are slightly predisposed to evil. But it's not heavy, and despite my search and Kioran's insistence that they wear a hat related to morality, the Races and Classes preview doesn't breath a /word/ on the 'standard' tiefling, in these terms. The closest they come? They're not very spiritual, and generally don't become clerics or paladins. They're also very closely tied to the Art of the Deal, which makes meta-sense.

Hm, actually, given that they're still outsiders a bit, and that they're mercantile-driven.. I imagine that they're the types to be travelling merchants or smugglers, as a racial hat, not brooding antiheroes or TEH EBIL CULTISTS. Pretty much everything given re: Them and anti-heroes is done from a meta-perspective.
Deveels? Well, that's something I haven't seen much of in an RPG.

Artanis
2008-02-06, 12:40 PM
Itīs not the sins of his ancestors that are the problem, itīs the sins of his descendants, who will all be drawn to evil like him. Leaving that Tiefling alive is actual in the best interest of the fiends since it will spawn another bunch of thralls selling their souls for power, at least more of them than a human would have.
Actually, in the sort of posts the quote was replying to, the sins of his ancestors ARE the problem. EE is very strenuously arguing that "the sins of the ancestors (as represented by horns and red skin)" = "deserve to be lynched".

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-08, 08:08 AM
Again, I must state this, since I seem to be getting ignored. The problem isn't so much "Oh no, he has black skin, my grandkids will come out darker." It's more "Oh no, he has horns and red skin, it doesn't matter how many pure humans our descendants marry, they will all be marked like that." At least in 3.x, the Fiendish traits don't always show up. It's more like "Oh, some 15 generations ago on my father's side, and some 20 on my mother's, their respective parents had trysts with Fiends. It's just been purified within me." You could even have a Tiefling child whose entire family look perfectly normal. Not so in 4e.

hewhosaysfish
2008-02-08, 10:49 AM
Again, I must state this, since I seem to be getting ignored. The problem isn't so much "Oh no, he has black skin, my grandkids will come out darker." It's more "Oh no, he has horns and red skin, it doesn't matter how many pure humans our descendants marry, they will all be marked like that."

Can someone with the Races and Classes preview doodat please post the precise wording of the whole "Tieflings breed true" statement?
Because I can see two ways to interpret it:
1) The interpretation used so far in this discussion, i.e. tiefling traits are always dominant. If this is correct then this is an example of fairly poor setting design. The question of why normal humanity hasn't been bred out of existence needs to be addressed... right after why elves are retarded, why dragons haven't taken over the world, how the ecosystem functions with so many top predators, how the Buer poops, etc etc... Add tielfing reproduction to the list of really "stupid crap that I'm taking out of my homebrew setting" and move on.
2) Tieflings were an offshoot of the human race but are now an entirely separate species i.e. they breed true amongst themselves and cannot interbreed with humanity any more than they can with any other completely separate species. Or at least they shouldn't be able to...

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 12:13 PM
Can someone with the Races and Classes preview doodat please post the precise wording of the whole "Tieflings breed true" statement?
Because I can see two ways to interpret it:
1) The interpretation used so far in this discussion, i.e. tiefling traits are always dominant. If this is correct then this is an example of fairly poor setting design. The question of why normal humanity hasn't been bred out of existence needs to be addressed... right after why elves are retarded, why dragons haven't taken over the world, how the ecosystem functions with so many top predators, how the Buer poops, etc etc... Add tielfing reproduction to the list of really "stupid crap that I'm taking out of my homebrew setting" and move on.
2) Tieflings were an offshoot of the human race but are now an entirely separate species i.e. they breed true amongst themselves and cannot interbreed with humanity any more than they can with any other completely separate species. Or at least they shouldn't be able to...

The second case is true.

spotmarkedx
2008-02-08, 12:32 PM
...how the Buer poops, etc etc...
In defense of D&D, the Buer isn't really their fault.
Buer wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buer)

Rion
2008-02-08, 01:04 PM
One very important thing to remember when comparing human/tiefling relations to human/human relations, is that different sentient beings have different ways of thinking, different mindscapes, exclusively because their brain has developed different. Examples of this could be psycopaths and autits who think the way they do, because some parts of their brain is under- or overdeveloped.

Jayngfet
2008-02-09, 02:09 AM
let me say one thing, aasimar and tieflings as a whole had one thing in common...


...individuality...


...not all tieflings were evil, about one percent of a very small population had dranai ripoff horns, another one percent had those legs(type?), and some tieflings could be blue if the dm cared enough, now all we get is a bunch of evil opposite dranai, being a race of whiny emo teens complaning about crap that happoned so long ago their grandparents had no control over, the dranai are still mutating, some losing the one thing dranai love above all else and...

...they make due with somthing else, cant go priest or paladin, no druidic heritige or culture, roll a shaman or a mage and get on with your life,

and if the tiefling in that animation is any indicator, we also have a bunch of violent attention whores replacing half orcs and gnome mutants that have a -6 int and nothing else

and furthermore why did they have to remove half orcs from phb1, now they have ether rape propaganda from nowhere or blatant money whoring

one more thing...

WAAAH, KRUSK, HENNET, GIMBLE, OTHER INCOMPATABLES, MY HUNDREDS SPENT ON 3.5 STUFF, MY MINIATURES, MY HOMEBREWED WORLD, THE STORES THAT ONLY SELL MINIATURES,

YOU MANIACS, YOU BLEW IT UP, AH, GODDAMN YOU, GOD DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL

VanBuren
2008-02-09, 02:21 AM
Nevermind the fact that Tieflings now have less of a reason to be emo. But whatever.

Rutee
2008-02-09, 03:35 AM
Maybe the people claiming Tieflings as emo are genuinely the sorts who would play them as emo?

...Man, if you guys are also responsible for Vampire, you have a lot to answer for :smallyuk: