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Caracol
2008-02-03, 06:11 AM
Post the progression of Feats that a fighter could choose to develop a great style and become a real warrior.

Rules:
1) Use the regular fighter Feat progression from level 1 to 20, but you can stop before if you want.
2) Additional feats that comes every three levels are good too.
3) Don't use racial ability or bonus feats (try to make something that everyone could develop).
4) If a feat is not in the Player Handbook, say in which manual is.
5) Homebrewd feats are accepted, but only if explained.
6) Give the style a name (optional)
7) Suggest tactics and roleplays ideas (optional)

Mine:

Chainmaster

Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain)
Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
Improved Initiative
Quick draw
Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Greater Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
Greater Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved Critical (spiked chain)

Good for quick, unespected attack. While in the second part (from greater weapon focus) specializes in boosting the damage, the point is the feat progression in the first part, not focusing on the damage, but on fast attacks and trip/disarm moves. Alternate version: istead of Str, you can use Dex if you have an higher one, placing Weapon Finesse somewhere in the first half.

shaggz076
2008-02-03, 06:32 AM
For your spiked chain build it is very good but a thought you may want to have is adding the Martial study feat twice and the Martial stance feat once at the mid to high levels so you could take the (I forget the neame right now) Martial stance that grants you +5 foot reach while you are attacking (your reach is normal in regards to threatened squares) meaning you would have a 15 foot radius when enacting your whirlwind attack as opposed to your regualr 10foot radius.

shaggz076
2008-02-03, 06:37 AM
Also, since you can't use Cleave in combination with Whirlwind attack it becomes a fairly useless feat in this build. A better choice might be to go the Shock trooper and leap attack route to bonifit from the power attack/2-hand wpn/leap attack/shock trooper, -20 ac = +60 or 80 damage route (depending on DM) since you can hit out to 15 feet away and they would be hit a couple of times while trying to close on you thanks to combat reflexes.

AslanCross
2008-02-03, 06:39 AM
Hmmm. I'd take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm) as it's very easy to reach the 10 damage threshold with a 2-handed weapon. It would also synergize well with Combat Reflexes. Damage plus a free trip on your opponent's turn is pretty cool.

I'd drop the Greater Focus/Greater Spec feats and take Knock-Down. Elusive Target (CWar) is also a good tactical feat since it synergizes with trip tactics and also protects you from Power Attack (which a lot of monsters have). Since the build already includes Dodge and Mobility, it qualifies for this feat.

Shaggz> That's Dancing Blade. It's one of my favorite stances. Since this is a pure fighter build, however, he'd need to be 18th level or higher to take it. (5th level stances and maneuvers would require an Initiator level of 9 and up)

Caracol
2008-02-03, 06:48 AM
Hmmm. I'd take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm) )

Damn that's nice. But I think it's a bit overpowering, and I really doubt my DM would allow me to take it!
Anyway, give me your fighter builds. Arguing with my style is ok, but I already tested it and I know that works, what I would like to hear is a different style of your creation.

Nebo_
2008-02-03, 07:18 AM
Your fighter seems to be completely gimped when it comes to defending himself.

Caracol
2008-02-03, 07:57 AM
Your fighter seems to be completely gimped when it comes to defending himself.

Wich fighter, if he doesn't depend on his armor or magic, or chooses a defendable-type feat progression, is able to defend himself well?

Plus: combat expertise gives you the ability to lower the attack to increse the AC. Add Dodge. Add Mobility. Add Combat reflexes. Add the range of the chain. This fighter is well protected and focuses on striking really bad before you're even close to him, and on moving constantly.

AND: this is not "the ultimate fighter thread". This is the "develop a style" thread. If you want to add a style that focuses in defense or anything else, do it, is what the thread is made for.

Nebo_
2008-02-03, 08:01 AM
I wasn't talking about AC and hit point damage. I mean magic. Spending some feats on the ToB maneuvers that allow you to use concentration instead of saves would go a long way towards survivability. Your AC isn't that great, being forced to wear light armour and all.

Kioran
2008-02-03, 08:41 AM
I call it "the turtle" - hard to dislodge, tough, allthough lacking on the offense:

Feats:
lvl 1: Shield Specialization (PHB 2)
Fighter 1: Shield Ward (PHB 2)
Fighter 2: Combat Expertise
lvl 3: Combat Focus (PHB 2)
Fighter 4: Dodge
lvl 6: Mobility
Fighter 6: Elusive Target (PHB 2)
Fighter 8: Combat Stability (PHB 2)
lvl 9: Combat Vigor (PHB 2)

Season With: Diehard, Steadfast Determination(CWar), Improved Toughness(CWar) or whatever you find. Maybe multiclass for Mettle

As you can clearly see, this makes extensive use of the generally higher-powered PHB 2 - but for a shield user, who is weaker in the first place. Among the highlights of this:

- A shield, with it´s small AC-Bonus
- That bonus also applies to Touch AC and against special maneuvers (like Grapple, Trip etc.)
- Combat Stability grants another +8 against these maneuvers after you´ve hit the first time
- Combat Vigor lets you shurg off a little damage with Fast Healing 4 for a few rounds

This is, coincidentally, pretty much what I had in mind for one of the prebuilt Characters in my new campaign (I prebuilt 10 for 5 players, those who do not get picked are reused as NPCs if I like them).

SilentNight
2008-02-03, 11:00 AM
EDIT: I will call the style "Wall of shiny points". It's a spear fighter that uses a lot of feats from Dragon magazine so I will summarize their effects. That said.
EDIT:
Exotic weapon proficiency(awl pike)(Dragon, 1d8 piercing damage, x3 crit, 15ft. reach.)
combat reflexes
Shield and pike style(Dragon, allows character to wield a two-handed pole-arm and a light shield at no penalty)
Stand still(psionic hand book.)
quick draw (for getting a shorter weapon, not needed if equiped with a morphing weapon.)
Weapon focus(awl pike)
weapon spec(awl pike)
Melee weapon mastery(piercing)
Improved combat reflexes( Dragon, allows second attack of oppritunity per provoke at -5 penalty)
Master combat reflexes( as above but a third attack at -10)
Long strike(Dragon, as full round action make one attack at +5 ft. to range.)

If room left, power attack, cleave and great cleave.
I like the build because it is virtually impossible to melee unless you corner it flat footed. Every time an opponent approaches he provokes three attacks of oppritunity. One of these will be sacrificed for stand still forcing the opponent to please try again. Expand a needed.

Caracol
2008-02-03, 11:55 AM
To Silent Night:
nice, I like this one. It has reach, defense and its cool.
What about to use the shield istead of another weapon or the pike with penality? something like Shield Bash (I don't know if this feat exists, but could be easily homebrewed), or other feats that boosts the shield use.

Edit: it reminds me 300.

Hell V
2008-02-03, 11:58 AM
I was thinking about posting this build for my human fighter character and ask for ideas on how to improve him, and your topic has just become perfect for me to not create a new one :smallbiggrin:
Since you asked to not use racial feats, it may become less effective, but let's give it a shot:

Lv1: Weapon Focus (Scimitar),Two Weapon Fighting
Lv2: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
Lv3: Power Attack
Lv4: Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Lv6: Elusive Attack, Leap Attack
Lv8: Improved Critical (Scimitar)
Lv9: Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Lv10:Shock Trooper
Lv12: Greater Weapon Specialization, Victor's Luck
Lv14: Meelee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
Lv15: Lucky Start
Lv16: Overpowering Strike
Lv18: Weapon Supremacy(Scimitar), Better Lucky Than Good
Lv20: Slashing Flurry

And Style Name would be "Aim For The Balls", Since you be crittin on a 1, 15-20
The concept came when a GM sugested he would include lots of naval action, so everyone is going to be on light armor.
If it were to include the Human bonus feat, that was Oversized Two Weapon Fighting on the first level, bringing most of the feats one level earlier and adding Unbeliavable Luck

Any "Optimizations", suggestions, critical strikes?

Caracol
2008-02-03, 12:05 PM
To Hell V:
I told that you can't use racial feats, but you a can use the feats you gain every three levels, if you need them.
Plus, I don't know a lot of feats that you choosed. Can you give the source?
And crit by 1! What's that?


And Style Name would be "Aim For The Balls"

Priceless.

Hell V
2008-02-03, 12:16 PM
The "by character" feats are already there on levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 :smallbiggrin:
Those "Lucky" feats are from Complete Scoundrel, most of the specialization/supremacy ones are from Player's Handbook 2 and Shock Trooper and Oversized TWF are Complete Warrior
The "Better Lucky Than Good" feat is the one that turns your natural ones on natural 20s, only on attack rolls (a given number times per day, but with the unbeliavable luck feat, that's simply more than the times you'll roll ones...

Deepblue706
2008-02-03, 12:49 PM
Lv1: Iron Will
Lv1 (Fighter): Mounted Combat
Lv2 (Fighter): Combat Expertise
Lv3: Power Attack
Lv4 (Fighter): Improved Trip
Lv6: Combat Reflexes
Lv6 (Fighter): Cleave
Lv8 (Fighter): Point Blank Shot
Lv9: Knockdown [General Feats SRD (Divine Section)]
Lv10 (Fighter): Rapid Shot
Lv12: Ride-By Attack
Lv12 (Fighter): Manyshot
Lv14 (Fighter): Mounted Archery
Lv15: Improved Combat Expertise [Cwar]
Lv16 (Fighter): Spirited Charge
Lv18: Improved Bull Rush
Lv18 (Fighter): Shock Trooper [Cwar]
Lv20 (Fighter): Improved Initiative

Style Name: "Octopus of Many Different Arms"

Tactics: As a Fighter with broad abilities, your tactics can vary according to situation. You should always have a mount handy, as it allows you the opportunity to access amazing damage potential with Spirited Charge (three times the normal damage on a mounted charge with a lance). Ride-By Attack, although to many just a prerequisite of this nice ability, also serves a purpose - it allows you to keep moving forward after your mounted charge. You also won't be provoking any AoOs from the guy you attack - so, this is rather nice when against a single large foe (when they're either seperated from the bulk of their group or completely alone).

You'll notice that this build also obtains Combat Expertise early on. This can be vital at lower levels, as you might find yourself fighting waves upon waves of goblins, etc. Power Attacking and Cleaving is good, but you can still be taken down easily if you're not careful. Taking a -1 to attack for +1 to AC in these situations might make the difference between life and death.

Soon to follow Combat Expertise is Improved Trip. This build does not maximize the potential of the concept, but it gives you the option of performing trip attacks. Carry a non-exotic weapon that can be used for tripping (ie the Guisarme), and use the ability whenever convenient.

With Combat Reflexes, this allows you to strike anyone to try to come at you when you have a reach weapon (and they don't take a 5ft move action). Since you're already using the Guisarme for tripping, you might as well just use that as your all-purpose reach weapon. In this situation, you can also perform more trip attacks, or simply try to deal enough damage for Knockdown (to be acquired at level 9). Keep in mind that the Guisarme does slashing damage - and that you can also cleave with it.

The archery feats allow you to strike at targets that are cunning enough to stay out of melee. This includes Dragons. With Rapid Shot, you can unleash serious damage (bows do less damage, but Rapid Shot gives you another attack on a full-attack action). Manyshot will allow you fair damage if you have to keep moving to hit such targets. Mounted Archery will keep you hitting targets you have to avoid in melee (like a tarrasque, etc).

Improved Combat Expertise also allows you some more defensive capability, which means that if you get caught in a hairy situation, you can at least stay alive a little longer. Also, great for one-on-one fights that you expect to last more than a few turns.

Shock Trooper provides a means to add bonus damage while subtracting AC instead of Attack. This will peak your damage output with the mounted charge. It's also pretty good on foot, too.

Iron Will at level 1 gives you a minimal defense against enchantments, etc, which can be a huge weakness of the Fighter. If you grab Endurance, you can also pick up Steadfast Determination, which allows you to use your CON modifier in place of your WIS modifier when applying your bonus to Will saves. As a Fighter, your CON will likely be higher. I excluded it, however, because I wanted to squeeze in as many combat abilities as I could.

Improved Initiative is always a nice addition to your feat list. It won't do anything amazing for you with this build - as you'll need high DEX for Manyshot, anyway - but it'll help. Also, at level 21, you can pick Dire Charge as a feat (Improved Init. is a prerequisite), which allows a full attack on a charge...which is rather nice because now you can charge with your lance to do four attacks, each of which doing triple damage.

Hell V
2008-02-03, 01:13 PM
I just remembered now I have one NPC that is a Fighter Feat Build... He was designed as the chief of a hobgoblin warcamp to beat the crap out of a 4th level party.

Lv1: Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Power Attack
Lv2: Improved Toughness
Lv3: Cleave
Lv4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Lv6: Leap Attack, Improved Toughness

His style is called "Pissed Of Goblinoid"
And I must say I was mistaken. Oversized TWF and Leap Attack are from Comp. Adventurer, not Comp Warrior :smallannoyed:
But Improved Toughness is C.W.

Fawsto
2008-02-03, 01:16 PM
Lets get started.

The basic feats for this progression. After that all is up to the player.

Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Knockdown (Sword and Fist)
Combat Reflexes
Short Haft (can't remember right now... But I think PHII)
Weapon Focus: Any reach triping weapon that deals significant damage
Power Attack

Have fun.

Edit: Deepblue, where are you taking Knockdown from?

Deepblue706
2008-02-03, 01:22 PM
I just remembered now I have one NPC that is a Fighter Feat Build... He was designed as the chief of a hobgoblin warcamp to beat the crap out of a 4th level party.

Lv1: Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Power Attack
Lv2: Improved Toughness
Lv3: Cleave
Lv4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Lv6: Leap Attack, Improved Toughness

His style is called "Pissed Of Goblinoid"
And I must say I was mistaken. Oversized TWF and Leap Attack are from Comp. Adventurer, not Comp Warrior :smallannoyed:
But Improved Toughness is C.W.

If you want him to beat the crap out of a fourth level party, I suggest you use this:

1: Power Attack
1F: Improved Sunder
2F: EWP: Heavy Poleaxe
3: Combat Reflexes
4F: Endurance
6: Steadfast Determination
6F: Combat Brute

Heavy Poleaxe is 2d6 damage with reach. Charge the fighter and perform a Sundering Cleave (break his weapon and hit him in one turn if you power attack - which is okay when you have a +8 to sunder checks for Improved Sunder and a two-handed weapon). If anyone else tries to approach him, they get a huge smack in the face. Next turn, avoid the unarmed fighter (with a broken weapon, he won't have an AoO against your guy when he runs through his area) and eat the Wizard. Then Sundering Cleave the Cleric. Then finally finish whatever chumps are still around.

Deepblue706
2008-02-03, 01:27 PM
Edit: Deepblue, where are you taking Knockdown from?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown

Hell V
2008-02-03, 01:35 PM
Wow nice. I'll keep that on a note for later use... But I really don't want to wipe the party completely, just drop one or two of them before he starts talking about how he is willing to spare the rest in exchange of some favors

Deepblue706
2008-02-03, 01:51 PM
Wow nice. I'll keep that on a note for later use... But I really don't want to wipe the party completely, just drop one or two of them before he starts talking about how he is willing to spare the rest in exchange of some favors

Just keep in mind that people get attached to their weapons. It'll make them sad if you smash them to bits often.

Of course, it can also get them really in the mood to get revenge. If you make a villain who does this kind of stuff, he'll be the sort they'll love to hate.

SilentNight
2008-02-03, 10:25 PM
To Silent Night:
nice, I like this one. It has reach, defense and its cool.
What about to use the shield istead of another weapon or the pike with penality? something like Shield Bash (I don't know if this feat exists, but could be easily homebrewed), or other feats that boosts the shield use.

Edit: it reminds me 300.

I didn't have 300 in mind when I designed it but it is based off of Alexander the Great's pezetairos(spelling?) Short haft shouldn't be there as I just remembered that it can't be used with awl pikes. I put in quick draw since sheild bashes are pretty weak.

Draz74
2008-02-04, 12:09 AM
Knock-Down isn't at all overpowered (and, in fact, should even have easier prerequisites IMHO), if you assume that tripping an opponent using Knock-Down doesn't still give you an additional attack via Improved Trip. (If you still allow the Improved Trip bonus attack, yeah, that's pretty cheesy.)

The strongest pure Fighter build I've ever seen was one based around the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature, which replaces a Bonus Feat and lets the Fighter do decent damage by bull rushing a foe into a wall or other solid surface. I think it's found in Dungeonscape.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-04, 12:43 AM
Just a BFS human fighter. If not human, just regular cleave instead of great cleave. Just something fun and to play around with the PHB2 fighter feats and swing around a great sword.

1:Power Attack,Weapon Focus (Great sword),Cleave
2:Blind-fight
3:Combat Reflexes
4:Weapon Spec
6:Close Combat Fighting (CW), Greater Cleave
8:Melee Weapon Mastery(Slashing)(PHB2)
9:Greater Weapon Focus
10:Improved Critical
12:Greater Weapon Spec, Endurance
14:Slashing Flurry (PHB2)
15:Steadfast Determination (PHB2)
16:Overpowering Attack (PHB2 variant)
18:Robilar's Gambit, Weapon Supremacy (Edit: PHB2, both)

Yami
2008-02-04, 01:36 AM
So, here's my build. Oddly enough, I call it the Dungoen Crasher, or Door Foe.

I'm assuming a non human build, as higher Strength is always better, and one may even choose to take LA adjusted races to see how high they can get it.

Lvl 1. Power attck, Improved Bullrush.
Lvl 2. Dungeon Crasher Variant from Dungoenscape
Lvl 3. Knock back from Races of stone.
Lvl 4. Free Feat to use, I grabbed Mauling gauntlets from Magic of Incarnum.
Lvl 6. Free feat, and the Dungoen Crasher Variant from Dungeonscape.

And the build it done. From here you can go wherever.

At level six you can bullrush people into walls, without having to move and deal massive damage. This is thanks to knockback, as it allows you to stand still while bullrushing. Enemy moves 5ft for every 5 they failed thier save. If this is done with a reach weapon you get AoO's, by Raw. Some DM's may be picky. Oh, and bullrushing them into a wall deals some 6d8+strength and whatnot,and then you add the free hit. Maybe it's D6... I forget.

Concept wise I love it. Fling people all over the map! ^_^v If you can get flight you can repeatedly ram them into the ground. Good stuff.

He's a backup for a campaign where in the DM is being a pain with tons o' locked doors.

Voyager_I
2008-02-04, 02:38 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown

You need a Divine Rank of at least 1 to take that, though. It's listed in the Divine Abilities section, which isn't available to lowly mortals.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-04, 02:55 AM
I don't think you need a divine rank to take a general or metamagic feat listed there. Just about everything in the section of deities and Demigods after the god powers was simply a list of 'normal' feats that were reprints of things found in the first few class books, sword and fist, tome and blood, song and silence...those books. Since that version of knockdown is in Sword and fist and appeared there first...I don't see who it wouldn't be available to 'normal' mortals as well.

Draz74
2008-02-04, 11:34 AM
You need a Divine Rank of at least 1 to take that, though. It's listed in the Divine Abilities section, which isn't available to lowly mortals.

No, it's not in "Divine Abilities," it's in "Divine Abilities & Feats." Which, by the way, means "(Divine Abilities) & Feats," not "Divine (Abilities & Feats)."

It's just in that section of the SRD because it is from the Deities & Demigods book rather than the PHB. It's still a normal feat.

Person_Man
2008-02-04, 11:35 AM
Avoid feats that are:

Situational: If you're not using the feat in every combat, its a waste.
Static: Provide small non-scaled bonuses, like Weapon Specialization/Focus.
A Trap: Things that sound cool often aren't. If a feat denies you the ability to make a full attack (Spring Attack), denies you the ability to deal damage (Improved Disarm), or can easily be purchased with a cheap magic item (Deflect Arrows), then look elsewhere.
Heavy Pre-req: This is unavoidable for some builds. But if something requires weak feats (Dodge, Mobility, etc) in order to get one cool ability (Elusive Target) then the cool feat is a lot weaker then you think it is.


Here are a bunch of generic builds. Enjoy.


1) Charge and Kill: Be sure to pick up Pounce. There are dozens of ways. In general, you should use a reach weapon to defend against counter attacks - Shock Trooper dumps your AC.

Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush -> Shock Trooper
Headlong Rush
Leap Attack -> Battle Jump (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a) (Unapproachable East)
OR Mounted Combat -> Ride by Attack -> Spirited Charge


2) Bowling Ball: Free Bull Rush with every attack. You can steer it one square left or right for each square you push them back. Free Trip attack whenever you hit Enemy A into Enemy B. Massive damage whenever you hit enemy into a wall or object (using Dungeonscape Fighter variant). In order to ensure a full attack, you need access to Hustle via an Evader Psicrown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psicrowns.htm#evader) or a psionic class or PrC. If you're not fighting in a place with accessible walls or objects, ask the caster in your party to make a wall with a spell, or cast Animate Objects and flank with the furniture. Search my posts for "Flaming Homer" for my full build.

Power Attack -> Improved Bull Rush -> Shock Trooper -> Knockback (Races of Stone, reqs you be a Goliath, Half Giant, or Large size)
Combat Reflexes -> Hold the Line (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html)


3) Lock Build: There are a lot of different ways to put this together. Here are the pieces. You don't need all of them. A dip into a Tome of Battle class will clear up the need for Martial Study/Stance. Use a reach weapon.

Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Knock-Down
OR Combat Reflexes -> Stand Still
Combat Reflexes -> Hold the Line
Martial Study -> Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) -> Staggering Strike
OR Martial Study -> Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
Mage Slayer -> Pierce Magical Concealment
Optional: Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror)
OR Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness)


4) Can't Touch This: Use a reach weapon. Almost impossible to Charge or get a full attack against this combo, unless the enemy has huge reach.
Evasive Reflexes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060706a) -> Hold the Line
Dodge -> Karmic Strike -> Robilar's Gambit
Optional: Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror)
OR Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness)


5) King of Smack: You hit me, I hit you back twice. Works best with Psychic Warrior using Claws of the Beast and Claws of the Vampire. But Fighter can actually pull off the full combo faster at low levels. Can also use Fighter variant (PHBII) for double damage attacks.

TWF tree
Combat Reflexes -> Dodge -> Karmic Strike ->Robilar's Gambit
Double Hit (Miniature's Handbook)
Optional: Weapon Focus -> Lightning Mace (Comp Warrior: Instead of maces, use a high threat range weapon with the Aptitude Weapon Enhancement from ToB).


6) Brawler: Every time you hit an enemy, you get a free Grapple check (dealing unarmed damage). Then you can use each of your attacks to make additional Grapple checks, but without the penalties for iterative attacks. Opposed Grapple checks are much easier then attack rolls in most cases. And enemies can't cast spells with semantic components while Grappled. This works much better for a Monk/Psychic Warrior/PrC. But again, a Fighter can generally get there faster at low levels.

Improved Unarmed Strike -> Scorpion's Grapple (Sandstorm)
Increased Unarmed Damage (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842) (scroll down to "Increasing Monk Damage")
Combat Focus -> Combat Vigor -> Combat Stability


7) Testudo: FEAR THE TURTLE! GO UMD! Apply your armor and shield bonus to Touch AC. Screws casters, the bane of every Fighter. Remember that Fighters get Tower Shield prof for free. And you can easily improve the AC of your armor and shields via magic items and buffs (ask your friends to cast spells on you, or buy them wands).

Heavy Armor Optimization -> Deflective Armor (Races of Stone)
Parrying Shield (Lords of Madness: I suggest buying an animated shield)

Caracol
2008-02-04, 11:57 AM
Avoid feats that are:

Situational: If you're not using the feat in every combat, its a waste.
Static: Provide small non-scaled bonuses, like Weapon Specialization/Focus.
A Trap: Things that sound cool often aren't. If a feat denies you the ability to make a full attack (Spring Attack), denies you the ability to deal damage (Improved Disarm), or can easily be purchased with a cheap magic item (Deflect Arrows), then look elsewhere.
Heavy Pre-req: This is unavoidable for some builds. But if something requires weak feats (Dodge, Mobility, etc) in order to get one cool ability (Elusive Target) then the cool feat is a lot weaker then you think it is.


Here are a bunch of generic builds. Enjoy.



While I really like your build, I must disagree with your wievs about the Feats.
1) Some feats need to be situational, becouse the fighter needs to be situational. An all-accomplished fighter or class does not exist.
2) Specialization and Focus can make the difference. What a low level fighter should take instead?
3) I don't know Spring attack, but I have to tell you that Improved Disarm is no *trap*. I used it a lot and it works, and really well too. I can't even remember how many opponents became helpless after I took their weapons.
Deflect arrows is basically for monks, and they get it like for free at level two or so (I don't remember right now). Why should they not take it, since it's good against ranged enemies, instead of wasting money and equipment slots whit a deflect arrows enchantment?
4) Mobility and Dodge aren't lame at all. Anyway if you're aiming for a particular talent and it takes some time, something useful is always good meanwhile.

Fighters are difficult to play because they are always on the edge. This means that every little feat that can give me some options in fight is welcomed, and has to be preferred to some forgotten feat.

Caracol
2008-02-04, 11:59 AM
Avoid feats that are:

Situational: If you're not using the feat in every combat, its a waste.
Static: Provide small non-scaled bonuses, like Weapon Specialization/Focus.
A Trap: Things that sound cool often aren't. If a feat denies you the ability to make a full attack (Spring Attack), denies you the ability to deal damage (Improved Disarm), or can easily be purchased with a cheap magic item (Deflect Arrows), then look elsewhere.
Heavy Pre-req: This is unavoidable for some builds. But if something requires weak feats (Dodge, Mobility, etc) in order to get one cool ability (Elusive Target) then the cool feat is a lot weaker then you think it is.


Here are a bunch of generic builds. Enjoy.



While I really like your builds, I must disagree with your wievs about the Feats.
1) Some feats need to be situational, becouse the fighter needs to be situational. An all-accomplished fighter or class does not exist.
2) Specialization and Focus can make the difference. What a low level fighter should take instead?
3) I don't know Spring attack, but I have to tell you that Improved Disarm is no *trap*. I used it a lot and it works, and really well too. I can't even remember how many opponents became helpless after I took their weapons.
Deflect arrows is basically for monks, and they get it like for free at level two or so (I don't remember right now). Why should they not take it, since it's good against ranged enemies, instead of wasting money and equipment slots with a deflect arrows enchantment?
4) Mobility and Dodge aren't lame at all. Anyway if you're aiming for a particular talent and it takes some long build, something useful is always good meanwhile.

Fighters are difficult to play because they are always on the edge. This means that every little feat that can give me some options in fight is welcomed, and has to be preferred to some forgotten feat.

the_tick_rules
2008-02-04, 12:02 PM
play what you enjoy. I swear this d20 section is sucking all the life out of D&D.

Zincorium
2008-02-04, 12:26 PM
play what you enjoy. I swear this d20 section is sucking all the life out of D&D.

Seriously, do you think anyone plays anything that they don't enjoy, just because of this forum? That's absurd.

If you think it's that bad, really, stop reading and posting, you'll thank yourself for it.

Draz74
2008-02-04, 12:44 PM
1) Some feats need to be situational, becouse the fighter needs to be situational. An all-accomplished fighter or class does not exist.

Actually, if you use enough books and optimize enough, you can come up with Fighter builds that can use all of their abilities in almost every situation (like, every situation that the DM isn't specifically countering your Fighter). Now, I think situational feats can be fun enough to make up for their being useful less-often. But it's probably not optimal to take a situational feat when you could take an always-useful feat.


2) Specialization and Focus can make the difference. What should a low level fighter take instead?

(grammar fixed) Um, let's see. Assuming Core-Only and up to 6th Level, a typical Fighter would be better off taking the following instead of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization:
Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Blind-Fight, Quick Draw.

Some of those aren't great feats, but they're better than a flat +1 to hit or +2 to damage (especially when these bonuses are weapon-dependent).

Allowing sources beyond Core (which was kind of implied in the topic of this thread) opens a HUGE new bank of options.

My current DM thought I was nuts for not taking Weapon Focus early as a Fighter/Rogue type. I think he's starting to see (at Level 6) that having feats that give me more options instead is more valuable.


3) I don't know Spring attack, but I have to tell you that Improved Disarm is no *trap*. I used it a lot and it works, and really well too. I can't even remember how many opponents became helpless after I took their weapons.

Spring Attack is core. Look it up. Improved Disarm is good, but very situational (see my response to Rule (1) above). In campaigns with mostly monsters or casters rather than NPC warriors, it's a dangerously useless feat.


Deflect arrows is basically for monks, and they get it like for free at level two or so (I don't remember right now). Why should they not take it, since it's good against ranged enemies, instead of wasting money and equipment slots whit a deflect arrows enchantment?

I don't think Person Man thinks it's dumb to take Deflect Arrows if you get it as a free bonus feat. That's not what he was saying. :smallwink:


4) Mobility and Dodge aren't lame at all.

Um ...
Mobility is lame because you shouldn't be going around provoking Attacks of Opportunity anyway. And if it really is important to you to move around the battlefield, there are better ways to avoid getting hit by these Attacks of Opportunity. (Optimize your Tumble skill even if it's cross-class; or use low-level teleportation magic that moves you around the battlefield; or pump up your normal AC, which works against AoO's and normal attacks ...) A situational +4 bonus to AC isn't really impressive.

Dodge is less situational, but man I hate it. First, it's downright boring. It adds absolutely no flavor to your character, because if you have at least 12 Dex, your character is already dodging stuff (since he gets Dex bonus to AC).

Second, +1 AC is a very weak feat, just like Weapon Focus. There are much better ways to improve your AC.

Third, Dodge doesn't even give you a +1 AC bonus. It only lets you do so against one opponent at a time, and you can only change that opponent once per round. Oh, and besides being weak in this way, it's annoying. I do not want to have to remember, when I'm trying to keep track of a whole battle, to keep declaring my Dodge target every turn. :smallyuk:

Person_Man
2008-02-04, 01:20 PM
You need a Divine Rank of at least 1 to take that, though. It's listed in the Divine Abilities section, which isn't available to lowly mortals.

Knock-Down was printed in Sword and Fist and Deities and Demigods. It was included with several other feats in the divine section of the SRD because that's where it was first printed. You'll notice many other similar non-divine feats there as well (Hold the Line, Extra Music, Jack of All Trades) in this section that are printed there for the same reason.


While I really like your builds, I must disagree with your wievs about the Feats.
1) Some feats need to be situational, becouse the fighter needs to be situational. An all-accomplished fighter or class does not exist.

I'm sorry, I really don't understand your criticism. I apologize if I was unclear. My point is that you should try and take feats that you use often because they give you more of a benefit then feats you use rarely. A good example of a situational feat is Whirlwind Attack. It's unlikely that you'll be surrounded by enemies. Getting surrounded by enemies is very dangerous. And by the time you have the feat, you already have several attacks per round, so its unlikely to grant much of a benefit. If you take Whirlwind Attack, you might use it once every three or four combats, and it might grant you one or two extra attacks. That's a very marginal benefit for a pretty rare circumstance.


2) Specialization and Focus can make the difference. What a low level fighter should take instead?

Any of the combos I listed. Most of them start working by 2nd level or sooner. This includes Spirited Charge, Knock-Down, Knockback, and Evasive Reflexes. The full power of most of them kick in around 6th level, including Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, Dungeon Crasher, etc.


3) I don't know Spring attack, but I have to tell you that Improved Disarm is no *trap*. I used it a lot and it works, and really well too. I can't even remember how many opponents became helpless after I took their weapons.

Most of the enemies in the Monster Manuals don't use weapons, and even if they do use a weapon, they often have other abilities. So there will be some (if not many) combats in which Improved Disarm is completely useless.

Futhermore, unlike Trip, Bull Rush, or Grapple, there is no feat that automatically gives you a free Disarm check when you make a normal attack. So you're wasting an attempt to kill your enemy to Disarm them. I don't question that you've used Improved Disarm and it worked well for you. I'm just arguing that you could have had better results if you had chosen other feats.


Deflect arrows is basically for monks, and they get it like for free at level two or so (I don't remember right now). Why should they not take it, since it's good against ranged enemies, instead of wasting money and equipment slots with a deflect arrows enchantment?

A Monk gets the choice between Deflect Arrows and Combat Reflexes. Combat Reflexes is far, far more valuable. You can also buy Deflect Arrows as a shield enhancement. There are also a variety of low level spells that protect you from ranged attacks, which your friends can cast for you quite effectively. Again, if your friends are jerks, just buy a Wand from Protection of Arrows and/or similar spells and have them use it on you. It lasts hours.


4) Mobility and Dodge aren't lame at all. Anyway if you're aiming for a particular talent and it takes some long build, something useful is always good meanwhile.

Fighters are difficult to play because they are always on the edge. This means that every little feat that can give me some options in fight is welcomed, and has to be preferred to some forgotten feat.

Dodge gives you a +1 to AC against one enemy. This is a really, really minor bonus that's far worse then most other feats, including most other feats that grant AC bonuses. Mobility gives you a +4 bonus to AC when you provoke an AoO caused by movement. If you provoke an AoO from movement you're a making a very obvious tactical error. If its really something that happens to you often in combat, invest in Tumble. Even if its a cross class Skill, you still have a pretty strong chance of avoiding all AoO from movement.

Also, I think its pretty clear that neither Dodge nor Mobility give you a new combat option. Your actions in combat remain exactly the same. You just gain a minor statistical bonus to them.

Caracol
2008-02-04, 01:41 PM
Actually, if you use enough books and optimize enough, you can come up with Fighter builds that can use all of their abilities in almost every situation (like, every situation that the DM isn't specifically countering your Fighter). Now, I think situational feats can be fun enough to make up for their being useful less-often. But it's probably not optimal to take a situational feat when you could take an always-useful feat.


Not considering that being capable of using all your abilities is impossible in real life (ok, we are talking about a game) this does not make sense to me.
And what about the fact that maybe I don't really can or want to use all the books that are around, mostly because they are too many or unpublished in my country, or about the fact that I would like to stick whit the core books and eventually making additional stuff by myself?
Plus, what the hell does mean situational? In Dnd you are in different situation you can't always adapt on, an THAT's the reason they made 11 different classes plus an infinite admount of other classes: to let anybody specialize in something an to play as a party.
Anyway, what I would like was to have some roleplay ideas for fighters along whit their style, thinking that the PH would be enough. This istead has become the "mention the obscure feat" thread.



(grammar fixed) Um, let's see. Assuming Core-Only and up to 6th Level, a typical Fighter would be better off taking the following instead of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization:
Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Blind-Fight, Quick Draw.

Some of those aren't great feats, but they're better than a flat +1 to hit or +2 to damage (especially when these bonuses are weapon-dependent).

Spring Attack is core. Look it up. Improved Disarm is good, but very situational (see my response to Rule (1) above). In campaigns with mostly monsters or casters rather than NPC warriors, it's a dangerously useless feat.


I'm not a native speaker, so that's the reason I often mess up or I don't recognize some feats by their original name. Sorry everybody, I'm doing the best I can to learn the grammar, but I don't have the time to always check it.

At low levels, the opponent you fight usually have more AC than Hp, therefore are more difficult to hit than to beat down in a single blow. That's the reason why I would stick whit Specializiation and Focus istead of Power attack at low levels. Of course the other ones you mentioned are still good, but more "situational":smallamused: than a good old +1 to the hit.



I don't think Person Man thinks it's dumb to take Deflect Arrows if you get it as a free bonus feat. That's not what he was saying. :smallwink:

: All my apoligies to Person_Man if I have insulted him in some ways. That was not in mine intentions.



Um ...
Mobility is lame because you shouldn't be going around provoking Attacks of Opportunity anyway. And if it really is important to you to move around the battlefield, there are better ways to avoid getting hit by these Attacks of Opportunity. (Optimize your Tumble skill even if it's cross-class; or use low-level teleportation magic that moves you around the battlefield; or pump up your normal AC, which works against AoO's and normal attacks ...) A situational +4 bonus to AC isn't really impressive.

Points for the AoO, I agree for the use of Tumble.
As for the teleport magic, screw this, if I wanted to play a mage I would.




Second, +1 AC is a very weak feat, just like Weapon Focus. There are much better ways to improve your AC.



Like wearing the most bulky armor possible and dying later in a not so deep pool of water. And if you think that this is situational, you should have seen one of our campaign:smallbiggrin:

For light and mobile fighters, Dodge is more than good.

SofS
2008-02-04, 03:13 PM
Given that the Dodge feat represents the ability to pay extra attention to a given opponent for the purpose of dodging his/her attacks, I think that verisimilitude supports a minor boost to that feat in the form of an equal bonus to Reflex saves against effects originating from that opponent. If you're ready to dodge, you're not going to be less ready if the attack provokes a save instead of checking itself against your AC.

Anyway, somewhat more on-topic: would a build using the rogue variant that trades sneak attack for fighter feats be admissable to this thread?

Caracol
2008-02-04, 04:31 PM
Given that the Dodge feat represents the ability to pay extra attention to a given opponent for the purpose of dodging his/her attacks, I think that verisimilitude supports a minor boost to that feat in the form of an equal bonus to Reflex saves against effects originating from that opponent. If you're ready to dodge, you're not going to be less ready if the attack provokes a save instead of checking itself against your AC.

Anyway, somewhat more on-topic: would a build using the rogue variant that trades sneak attack for fighter feats be admissable to this thread?

A good variant.
About the rougue, it seems unhortodox, but post it anyway.

SofS
2008-02-04, 10:42 PM
This build uses the rogue variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) from Unearthed Arcana that trades sneak attack for a fighter's bonus feat progression. I've always found it an intriguing idea, even though it may not be particularly optimal in most games.

I designed an early version of this build for a solo game that was going to take place in a large city where magic items would be rare and armour and weapons would be heavily restricted. Thus, it focuses on personal versatility and doing without equipment where possible.

Lacking a better name, this is called the "Masked Adventurer Style" after the characters that inspired it. It requires a high Dex score and an Int of 13 or higher.

1: Char - Improved Unarmed Strike, Rog - Dodge, Trapfinding
2: Rog - Weapon Finesse, Evasion
3: Char - Combat Expertise, Rog - Trap Sense +1
4: Rog - Superior Unarmed Strike, Uncanny Dodge
5
6: Char - Mobility, Rog - Elusive Target, Trap Sense +2
7
8: Rog - Combat Reflexes, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9: Char - Cloak Dance, Rog - Trap Sense +3
10: Rog - Improved Trip, Special Ability
11
12: Char - Close-Quarters Fighting, Rog - Defensive Throw, Trap Sense +4

If human, take either Blind-Fight or Improved Initiative at first level

Now, the build is obviously quite low on damage. For a grittier campaign, this is less likely to be a concern, as hit points will both average lower and be harder to heal. The main thrust of the build was to have good mundane defenses against multiple opponents. Elusive Target evens the odds against damage-machine fighters quite handily, while Cloak Dance effectively allows the character to trade his/her fairly unimpressive iterative attacks for one reasonable attack and 20% nonmagical concealment per round where a full-round action is feasible. Close-Quarters Fighting and Defensive Throw complete the denial-based melee defense package.

Really, though, this build is not optimized for standard D&D at all. It's mainly for situations where you want to act like an old-school comic book hero.

Later advancement for this build can improve offense with Acrobatic Attack, Spring Attack, Combat Tactician, and Flying Kick, improve defense with the Combat Focus tree, or synergize well with Martial Study, Martial Stance, and Shadow Blade, if you are unlike me and actually like the ToB. Switching out the unarmed feats can make for a good swashbuckling fencer.

Sir Iguejo
2008-02-05, 06:30 AM
very nice builds here

for the min/maxer powergamers: this thread is focused on flavour, not char optimization. The fighter is the most flavorful class in core: you can do just about everything with 17~18 feats, from a sword and board full plate guy to a spiked chain tripper.

my build:
i dont remember the exact order nor the exact level to get the feats, so Ill post only the 'spine' of the build.

Shield is your best Weapon

two weapon fighting tree
oversized two weapon fighting(CAdv)
shield specialization
imp shield bash
active shield defense
shield ward
agile shield fighter
Weapon focus/specialization(shield and/or main hand weapon)
Greater weapon focus/spcl(shield and or main hand weapon)


most of these feats are PH2

Advantages: high AC fighter with extra attacks. Compensate penalties from TWF with weapon focus.
Also, get your off hand into a bashing shield ASAP

and I ask you:
oversized weapon fighting treats your heavy shield as a light weapon, so you attack with -2/-2. And agile shield fighter reduces penalties by 2. Does these effects stack? Do I attack with +0/+0 AND keep my bonus to AC?

this build goes well with the knight class too, but you dont get the focus tree


hope you like it

Caracol
2008-02-05, 07:10 AM
very nice builds here

for the min/maxer powergamers: this thread is focused on flavour, not char optimization. The fighter is the most flavorful class in core: you can do just about everything with 17~18 feats, from a sword and board full plate guy to a spiked chain tripper.


Thank god, someone that understands. I personally find optimization threads boring, if not useless. If you want to be the best, just play Pun-Pun or be a DM.

Nice build though.

Enguhl
2008-02-05, 07:42 AM
(In no particular order because it's late and I'm tired from work, "Forget you sleep! I'm gonna troll the OoTS forums!")

Exotic Weap Prof Double Sword
Weap Focus
Weap Spec
Greater Weap Focus
Greater Weap Spec (all double sword)
Skill Focus Jump
Athletic
Run
Two weapon fighting
Improved two weapon fighting
Greater two weapon fighting
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Dash (forget which book, but +5 speed)
Dash (homebrewed with friend to be able to take it twice, hate not having a rounded speed)
Improved Bull Rush
Power Attack

Basically I run around all fast like (pshew!) then jump into the air spinning my double sword and open with a crazy flying jumping power attack.
In my head it looks really cool at least.

Caracol
2008-02-05, 07:44 AM
Basically I run around all fast like (pshew!) then jump into the air spinning my double sword and open with a crazy flying jumping power attack.
In my head it looks really cool at least.

Elicopter attack! I really like this. It's crazy enough to work.

KoDT69
2008-02-05, 09:28 AM
What about a fighter that takes all feats for Toughness and has massive HP? Just like a barbarian without Rage! Oh, wait a minute... :smalleek:

freetobeuandme
2008-02-05, 09:38 AM
so if i didn't have dungeonscope, how could i find the stats on dungeoncrusher?

Indon
2008-02-05, 09:48 AM
What about a fighter that takes all feats for Toughness and has massive HP? Just like a barbarian without Rage! Oh, wait a minute... :smalleek:

Slightly better health, actually, since D10-D12 is only an average increase of 1 per level, and Toughness every other level would be an average increase of 1.5.

If you took Impoved Toughness, then the Incarnum toughness feat and the feat that gives you two more essentia, then Toughness 9 times, you'd have 56 extra HP from feats (11 feats, that is) at level 20. Heh.

Charity
2008-02-05, 09:56 AM
What about a fighter that takes all feats for Toughness and has massive HP? Just like a barbarian without Rage! Oh, wait a minute... :smalleek:

Unfortunately Toughness is not a fighter bonus feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats) believe it or not. So that particular route to ultimate suckitude is not available. Try one of the enthusiastically presented methods above.

Hell V
2008-02-05, 01:41 PM
Improved Toughness (Comp Warrior) works best (Increase 1hp / hd and is cumulative with self) and the Fighter gets the prereqs on level 1

How to get Whirlwind Attack on level 4:

Lv1: Dodge, Mobility
Lv2: Spring Attack
Lv3: Combat Expertise
Lv4: Whirlwind Attack

And with Dodge, Mobility AND Combat Expertise, you can get surrounded on purpose most of the time, getting potential 8 attacks with full bonus :smallwink:
Very useful if your DM keeps throwing lots of weak enemies at you, not good to fight one big bad enemy...

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-02-05, 02:50 PM
How to get Whirlwind Attack on level 4:

Lv1: Dodge, Mobility
Lv2: Spring Attack
Lv3: Combat Expertise
Lv4: Whirlwind Attack

And with Dodge, Mobility AND Combat Expertise, you can get surrounded on purpose most of the time, getting potential 8 attacks with full bonus :smallwink:
Very useful if your DM keeps throwing lots of weak enemies at you, not good to fight one big bad enemy...

First: Spring Attack attack requires 4 BaB, so you can't take it until level 4 which means you can't get whirlwind attack until level 6.
Second, I;m not quite convinced by your tactic, dodge especially doesn't work well against groups, a +4 bonus is nice, but doesn't make you invincible even with combat expertise.
Spring attack also doesn't work with Whirlwind Attack IIRC as a Whirlwind Attack requires a full action, so anything not dead will full attack you next round.
Although making more attacks at level 6 may be good, it is very situational at best and you just spend 4 feats on it, that is the way to go for a one-trick pony syndrome.

Frosty
2008-02-05, 03:16 PM
This build may not be valid (may need a bit tweaking on the feat progression), since I don't know which of these feats are Figher Bonus feats.

1 Combat Expertise; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
2 Improved Trip
3 Combat Reflexes
4 Stand Still
5
6 Mage Slayer, Martial Study (a maneuver from Devoted Spirit Discipline)
7
8 Martial Study (Thicket of Blades)
9 Power Attack
10 Blind-fight
11
12 Improved Bullrush, Pierce Magical Concealment
13
14 Shock Trooper
15 Leap Attack
16 Robilar's Gambit
17
18 Pierce Magical Protection, Hold the Line


This build is what I call the "You don't move" build. The general idea is to generate as many AoOs as possible, and make your opponents hurt big time and stay still so your allies have all the time in the world to finish the enemies off.

You can either Trip your enemies or use Stand Still (from Expanded Psionics Handbook) to prevent your opponents from going anywhere if they generate an AoO from you. And they *will* get to make a lot of AoOs because with the Thicket of Blades stance.

Thicket of Blades, a Devoted Spirit Maneuver, states "While you are in this stance, any opponent you threaten that takes any sort of movement, including a 5-foot step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you." It also specifically prohibits them from using the Withdraw action.

Enemies can't even tumble to move past you. They sit still or you either Trip them or force them to make a reflex save (from Stand Still) equal to the damage or not be able to move.

You then also have Mage Slayer (C. Arcane), so casters you threaten can't cast defensively. Now, the caster can't move and can't cast. What is he gonna do? Casters are now FUBAR short of quickened spells. Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment (also from C. Arcane) makes it much easier to hit spellcasters as well.

Finally, you've also got the standard feats for Charging, including Shock Trooper (C. Warrior) and Leap Attack (C. Adventurer) so you can deal massive damage on the charge. You dump your AC instead of to-hit, so when you do make AoOs, you still deal massive damage, but your accuracy isn't decreased.

Robilar's Gambit from PHB2 allows you to get an AoO on anyone who tries to hit you in melee, so anyone who tries to take advantage of your low AC will pay!

I forgot where Hold the Line is from, but you get AoOs from others charging you.

Person_Man
2008-02-05, 04:32 PM
This build may not be valid (may need a bit tweaking on the feat progression), since I don't know which of these feats are Fighter Bonus feats.

1 Combat Expertise; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
2 Improved Trip
3 Combat Reflexes
4 Stand Still
5
6 Mage Slayer, Martial Study (a maneuver from Devoted Spirit Discipline)
7
8 Martial Study (Thicket of Blades)
9 Power Attack
10 Blind-fight
11
12 Improved Bullrush, Pierce Magical Concealment
13
14 Shock Trooper
15 Leap Attack
16 Robilar's Gambit
17
18 Pierce Magical Protection, Hold the Line


If you take Improved Trip, you should definitely take Knock-Down.

Improved Trip and Stand Still are duplicative. You really can only use one or the other. You can't use both on the same attack, and they serve the same purpose, so alternating between them doesn't add any benefit.

With Stand Still or Knock-Down, Thicket of Blades, and Hold the Line, I'm of the opinion that you don't need EWP Spiked Chain. It's doubtful that anyone will get within 5 feet of you. And if they do you can just take a 5 ft step back, or attack them with armor spikes. And with Thicket of Blades, you don't have to worry about enemies taking a 5 ft step to get out of your threatened area either.

Blind Fight is unnecessary. You have the far superior Pierce Magical Concealment. (FYI, you may wish to buy a Ring of Blinking - Enemies will suffer a 50% miss chance against you, but you can ignore the 20% miss chance against them). And there are a variety of cheap magic items that grant you Blindsense/Tremorsense/Scent/etc.

Pierce Magical protection is a bit shaky. It's a standard action to use, and by the time you get it you'll be making at least 4 attacks per turn. I'd rather just take my chances with the four attacks. But I could certainly see how it could be useful in BBEG fights, especially at high levels.

You might just want to take two levels of Crusader at mid levels for Thicket of Blades instead of spending two feats on it. You'd hold on to your full BAB and hit points, and get more maneuvers.

Other then that, I'd say that you have a very solid Charge and Lock build. Be sure to pick up flight from a magic item, and you should have all the bases covered.

Caracol
2008-02-05, 04:35 PM
It's unlikely that you'll be surrounded by enemies. Getting surrounded by enemies is very dangerous. And by the time you have the feat, you already have several attacks per round, so its unlikely to grant much of a benefit. If you take Whirlwind Attack, you might use it once every three or four combats, and it might grant you one or two extra attacks. That's a very marginal benefit for a pretty rare circumstance.

It's rare if you want it to be rare. If you use it as a tactic, ad become sorrounded by weaker enemies by purpose, this can be effective. Also, as Sir Iguejo stated, we are talking about what style you can give to your fighter, not if this style is the best or about wich feat is the best.



Any of the combos I listed. Most of them start working by 2nd level or sooner. This includes Spirited Charge, Knock-Down, Knockback, and Evasive Reflexes. The full power of most of them kick in around 6th level, including Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, Dungeon Crasher, etc.


As I stated before, nothing is more all-around than a bonus to the attack and damage rolls.



Most of the enemies in the Monster Manuals don't use weapons

And the 90% of the NPCs does. Add some monster that does it too, and you get weapon users almost everywhere. And in my roleplay career I was attacked by armed NPC or monsters way more than by unarmed ones.



Futhermore, unlike Trip, Bull Rush, or Grapple, there is no feat that automatically gives you a free Disarm check when you make a normal attack. So you're wasting an attempt to kill your enemy to Disarm them.

Killing is not the only way to win a fight.



I don't question that you've used Improved Disarm and it worked well for you. I'm just arguing that you could have had better results if you had chosen other feats.

This attitude sounds like powergaming. I don't like it.



A Monk gets the choice between Deflect Arrows and Combat Reflexes. Combat Reflexes is far, far more valuable. You can also buy Deflect Arrows as a shield enhancement. There are also a variety of low level spells that protect you from ranged attacks, which your friends can cast for you quite effectively.

Combat Reflexes is whorty, but I don't like the fact that I have to rely on spells to be protected. A fighter is able to survive without this. At least, it's what I like my fighters to be. If you like a caster or magic-based warrior, there are lots of possibities and styles anyway.



Dodge gives you a +1 to AC against one enemy. This is a really, really minor bonus that's far worse then most other feats, including most other feats that grant AC bonuses. Mobility gives you a +4 bonus to AC when you provoke an AoO caused by movement. If you provoke an AoO from movement you're a making a very obvious tactical error. If its really something that happens to you often in combat, invest in Tumble. Even if its a cross class Skill, you still have a pretty strong chance of avoiding all AoO from movement.

Also, I think its pretty clear that neither Dodge nor Mobility give you a new combat option. Your actions in combat remain exactly the same. You just gain a minor statistical bonus to them.

I disagree. They give lots of options or, at least, this feats match with a fast fighter style. And that's the point.

Arbitrarity
2008-02-05, 04:36 PM
Defensive Sweep is also useful in that sort of build. "You move? I hit you. You attack? I hit you. You don't move? I still hit you.

Also, the decisive strike (or whatever) alternate fighter class feature, replacing the 16'th level bonus feat, is very useful. Full round action for one attack dealing double damage, as do all other attacks during the round (read: AOO's)

Dark Tira
2008-02-05, 05:02 PM
So, here's my build. Oddly enough, I call it the Dungoen Crasher, or Door Foe.

At level six you can bullrush people into walls, without having to move and deal massive damage. This is thanks to knockback, as it allows you to stand still while bullrushing. Enemy moves 5ft for every 5 they failed thier save. If this is done with a reach weapon you get AoO's, by Raw. Some DM's may be picky. Oh, and bullrushing them into a wall deals some 6d8+strength and whatnot,and then you add the free hit. Maybe it's D6... I forget.


Actually this isn't quite right, by RAW your opponent provokes AoO by other people but not you during a bullrush. You also got the usefulness of Knockback backwards. Knockback gives free bullrushes when you power attack so you do normal damage and then can do extra damage with the dungeoncrasher ability. Better yet, if you manage to pin an opponent against a wall you can use iterative attacks to beat them repeatedly into a wall.

Frosty
2008-02-05, 05:12 PM
If you take Improved Trip, you should definitely take Knock-Down.

Knock-down is not allowed in any of my games. We consider it 3.0 material, so I don't use it.


Improved Trip and Stand Still are duplicative. You really can only use one or the other. You can't use both on the same attack, and they serve the same purpose, so alternating between them doesn't add any benefit.

I thought that was the case, but I wasn't quite sure. That'll free up some feats. Maybe Improved trip in the beginning, and then retrain to Stand Still later.



With Stand Still or Knock-Down, Thicket of Blades, and Hold the Line, I'm of the opinion that you don't need EWP Spiked Chain. It's doubtful that anyone will get within 5 feet of you. And if they do you can just take a 5 ft step back, or attack them with armor spikes. And with Thicket of Blades, you don't have to worry about enemies taking a 5 ft step to get out of your threatened area either.

I'm a fighter. I have feats to spare :smalltongue: In any case, I want a spiked chain so when I am enlarged I threaten a ridiculous amount of area and I can control multiple people at once. If I can force 4 or 5 different enemies to stay still and not cast, I've done my job.



Blind Fight is unnecessary. You have the far superior Pierce Magical Concealment. (FYI, you may wish to buy a Ring of Blinking - Enemies will suffer a 50% miss chance against you, but you can ignore the 20% miss chance against them). And there are a variety of cheap magic items that grant you Blindsense/Tremorsense/Scent/etc.

Blind Fight is a prerequesite to one of the Pierce Magical <Concealment/Protection> so I kinda need it.



Pierce Magical protection is a bit shaky. It's a standard action to use, and by the time you get it you'll be making at least 4 attacks per turn. I'd rather just take my chances with the four attacks. But I could certainly see how it could be useful in BBEG fights, especially at high levels.

Really? I was under the impression I just attacked as normal and it auto-dispels those AC buffs.



You might just want to take two levels of Crusader at mid levels for Thicket of Blades instead of spending two feats on it. You'd hold on to your full BAB and hit points, and get more maneuvers.

My ideal build would not be pure fighter. But, this thread is about pure fighters, so...



Other then that, I'd say that you have a very solid Charge and Lock build. Be sure to pick up flight from a magic item, and you should have all the bases covered.

Yep. Flight or Air-walk item is good. Only downside is, I don't have my Will saves covered, but hopefully the Wizard will cast MindBlank on me.

freetobeuandme
2008-02-05, 07:08 PM
what race would work best with this?

Frosty
2008-02-05, 07:29 PM
Most races that are larger than a Small size would work.

Human if you want an extra feat to get some of the nicer feats earlier and for extra skill points (you need to pump Jump to a certain extent).

Raptoran if you want to fly naturally and not waste money on some magical boots.

Catfolk if you don't mind a +1 LA or if you can buy it off. +4 Dex and 40 base speed is very nice. Helps with Combat Reflexes to make more AoOs. +2 Cha is useless, but it doesn't hurt any either.

Dwarves are good for extra HP. Cha is a dump stat anyways, and extra saving throws vs spells is always good. 20 base land speed is bad, but that menas you also don't care about wearing medium armor anymore.

Goliath is good for extra Strength, and Power Build. You can trip a lot better since you count as Large for certain things. It does have +1 LA.

Lots of races are good for fighter.

KoDT69
2008-02-05, 09:34 PM
Unfortunately Toughness is not a fighter bonus feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats) believe it or not. So that particular route to ultimate suckitude is not available. Try one of the enthusiastically presented methods above.

OK so since I was so careless as not to validate my own build that nobody in their right mind would seriously play, I'll retcon it :smallbiggrin:

Start as a human fighter. 1 feat for the 1st level character and 1 for the human freebie plus the 6 standard feats on your way to level 20 is 8 feats. So he'll net a whopping 24 extra hp. And for continuity's sake, he'll take weapon focus in 11 different weapons, none of which he will actually use in combat, that way he still sucks. I guess the point of the thread was to make a good build though, so do the opposite of my build and you can't totally be a waste! :smallbiggrin: