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Cuddly
2008-02-03, 02:48 PM
I'm going to be playing in a gestalt campaign with access to just about every book, except complete champion. Divine metamagic is banned, and I believe the polymorph spells and time stop will likely be banned, too. Unearthed Arcana, including the variant classes, are allowed, as are up to two feats.

My (rolled) stats:
11
14
16
14
18
16

It's going to start at level 9, and be a plane hopping sort of game. Lots of travel, anyway, and I think the DM will be tossing out lots of magic items, as it is in his nature.

Not sure if the party will be good or evil, so I'm working out multiple characters. For the good character, I'm thinking:

Druid9//cleric4/monk1/sentinel of Bharrai1/Lion of Talisid 3 is what I'm looking at, aiming for Druid20//cleric4/monk1/sentinel of Bharrai1/Lion of Talisid 5/contemplative1/???.

Feats will be:
1. Sacred Vow, VoP, Nymph's Kiss
2 Vow of Obedience
3. Domain Spontaneity
4. Touch of Golden Ice
6. Sanctify Natural Attack, Natural Spell, Track (bonus from SoB)
8. Exalted Wild Shape
9. Multiattack

VoP saves me the hassle of paging through dozens of books looking for the perfect equipment, which, due to the high cost of wilding items, won't help me out any way, since I wouldn't be able to afford them at level 9. 1 level of Monk nets me wisdom to AC, which, with two age categories and a boost from VoP, will be +7, for a total of 31 AC in Dire Lion morph. With a pouncing flurry while under divine power, I'll have attack routine +17/+17/+17/+15 with two rakes at +15 if the bite lands. 5 levels of Lion of Talisid will yield scent, which will go well with track, exalted animal companion, as well as pounce. Pounce = Pouncing squid, pouncing bears, etc. However, most of the animals I'm looking at turning into (cats, megaraptor) either already have pounce, or only have one attack. Is Lion of Talisid 5 worth it? Or should I go something else? What would be the best morph? I'm leaning megaraptor for getting 5 attacks instead of 4 as a dire lion, though my strength goes down by 4. A fleshraker with righteous might would be pretty BA, and combined with touch of golden ice, there's potential for some serious dex damage.

My other thought for a (non-good) build would be venerable dragonwrought kobold sorceror//??. Looking through race of the dragon and dragon magic, there is some high potential for a really quality blasting character using breath weapons and the like.

Swooper
2008-02-03, 03:22 PM
Wait, so what do you need help with? Seems like you've already got your character pretty planned.

mabriss lethe
2008-02-03, 03:53 PM
well, I've been wanting to get into a gestalt game for the sole purpose of playing a monster class. Whateve monster I wanted would dictate what sort of class I take. Seems to be the only way to make a high HD monster class work at higher levels.

mikeejimbo
2008-02-03, 04:03 PM
I have always wanted to play an Archivist/Wizard in a Gestalt campaign. Both of them as Int-based casters, with access to most arcane and eventually, all divine magic? Sounds fun.

Sanzh
2008-02-03, 04:22 PM
I'd recommend a Warblade//Factotum. Good Int synergy, and you can do almost anything.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 09:27 PM
I'm going to be playing in a gestalt campaign with access to just about every book, except complete champion. Divine metamagic is banned, and I believe the polymorph spells and time stop will likely be banned, too. Unearthed Arcana, including the variant classes, are allowed, as are up to two feats.

My (rolled) stats:
11
14
16
14
18
16

It's going to start at level 9, and be a plane hopping sort of game. Lots of travel, anyway, and I think the DM will be tossing out lots of magic items, as it is in his nature.

Not sure if the party will be good or evil, so I'm working out multiple characters. For the good character, I'm thinking:

Druid9//cleric4/monk1/sentinel of Bharrai1/Lion of Talisid 3 is what I'm looking at, aiming for Druid20//cleric4/monk1/sentinel of Bharrai1/Lion of Talisid 5/contemplative1/???.

My other thought for a (non-good) build would be venerable dragonwrought kobold sorceror//??. Looking through race of the dragon and dragon magic, there is some high potential for a really quality blasting character using breath weapons and the like.

For the good PC I'd consider the +0LA Planetouched template (Aasimar) PGtF for the +2 to Charisma and Wisdom.

I'd consider using the UA/SRD Cloistered Cleric variant for the extra skill points, bardic knowledge and bonus domain knowledge.

A 2 level dip into Divine Oracle could be interesting.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-03, 09:39 PM
My other thought for a (non-good) build would be venerable dragonwrought kobold sorceror//??. Looking through race of the dragon and dragon magic, there is some high potential for a really quality blasting character using breath weapons and the like.
Let's see...

You've got a decent build for a Good character; for the Evil one, how does....

Desert Kobold (UA envioromental Variant - trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty, loses the light blindness, some other minor stuff) Sorcerer-15/Archmage-5//Fighter-4/Monk-3/Blackguard-8/Whatever-5

Take Aescetic Mage (Complete Adventurer - Trades Monk's Wis to AC for Charisma to AC, plus a few less important things).

Charisma is your spellcasting stat.
Aescetic Mage gives you Charisma to AC.
Dark Blessing gives you Charisma to saves.
You've got a really nice HD.
You've got nearly full BAB.
You're a full caster.

What more do you need?
Well, I suppose you could grab the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium - bonus spells known.

Charlie Kemek
2008-02-03, 09:51 PM
Let's see...

You've got a decent build for a Good character; for the Evil one, how does....

Desert Kobold (UA envioromental Variant - trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty, loses the light blindness, some other minor stuff) Sorcerer-15/Archmage-5//Fighter-4/Monk-3/Blackguard-8/Whatever-5

Take Aescetic Mage (Complete Adventurer - Trades Monk's Wis to AC for Charisma to AC, plus a few less important things).

Charisma is your spellcasting stat.
Aescetic Mage gives you Charisma to AC.
Dark Blessing gives you Charisma to saves.
You've got a really nice HD.
You've got nearly full BAB.
You're a full caster.

What more do you need?
Well, I suppose you could grab the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium - bonus spells known.

Also add some levels in hexblade for more chr to AC

Zincorium
2008-02-03, 09:59 PM
Also add some levels in hexblade for more chr to AC

Nitpick: Hexblade gives charisma to saves against spells. Not AC.

And I'd put forth Dragon Disciple as good for at least one side of gestalt, there are very few classes it doesn't help.

Jack Zander
2008-02-03, 10:08 PM
Wizard/Cleric is always good.

Monk/Rogue has a ton of MAD, but hella fun to play.

Many people seem to enjoy bardbarians.

For extreme divine retribution (and to outclass any fighting build), go Paladin(Fighter)/Cleric.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-02-03, 10:15 PM
I'm fond of Rogue//Beguilers or Rogue/Assassin//Beguilers if you're evil or don't care about the alignment requirement. You still get to wear light armor, two kinds of spontaneous int-based casting, a few ways to use someone's flat-footedness, good Will and Ref.
You're like a music-less bard that's useful and kills people.

Cuddly
2008-02-03, 10:20 PM
For the good PC I'd consider the +0LA Planetouched template (Aasimar) PGtF for the +2 to Charisma and Wisdom.

I'd consider using the UA/SRD Cloistered Cleric variant for the extra skill points, bardic knowledge and bonus domain knowledge.

A 2 level dip into Divine Oracle could be interesting.

Good call on the Cloistered Cleric and Planetouched. Spell domain looks amazing. I'm definitely getting travel as one, knowledge will be a bonus, and maybe spell will be my other level 1 domain? I'm thinking domain spontaneity with travel, and what should my contemplative extra domain be? Any ideas?



Let's see...

You've got a decent build for a Good character; for the Evil one, how does....

Desert Kobold (UA envioromental Variant - trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty, loses the light blindness, some other minor stuff) Sorcerer-15/Archmage-5//Fighter-4/Monk-3/Blackguard-8/Whatever-5

Take Aescetic Mage (Complete Adventurer - Trades Monk's Wis to AC for Charisma to AC, plus a few less important things).

Charisma is your spellcasting stat.
Aescetic Mage gives you Charisma to AC.
Dark Blessing gives you Charisma to saves.
You've got a really nice HD.
You've got nearly full BAB.
You're a full caster.

What more do you need?
Well, I suppose you could grab the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium - bonus spells known.

That's pretty solid, though I think I'd go sorc2/paragorn3/incantatrix3/fatespinner1//paladin of tyranny 2/sorc1/hex4/swordsage 2. Proceeding levels would go
sorc2/paragorn3/incantatrix4/fatespinner3/archmage5/X//paladin of tyranny 3/sorc1/hex4/swordsage X

RTGoodman
2008-02-03, 10:31 PM
For general synergy, Warblade//Archivist or Warblade//Psion seem to be pretty decent - full BAB, two good saves, full casting (Czilla spells from Archivist, or nova potential from Psion), and several Warblade abilities based off Int (i.e., your main casting stat).

For a Mystic Theurge on steroids, as others have mentioned, Wizard//Archivist has everything based on Int, but is otherwise not the greatest.

For a more melee-centric build (that should work - I didn't look up anything to check it), maybe something like Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 5//Bard 20. (If you can get away with two PrCs at the same level, maybe Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 to grab 9th level spells.) Maybe throw in a level of Lion Totem (Pouncing) Barbarian somewhere, and grab Snowflake War Dance and the other feats that people usually use for make "battle-bards." That should get you some buffs, good skills, good HD, full BAB, all good saves for most or all levels, spells for buffing, moving during a full attack using two scimitars, and some good out-of-combat abilities. Of course, it's ridiculously MAD (Dex, Con, Int, Cha, and maybe some Str for damage).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-03, 10:32 PM
Good call on the Cloistered Cleric and Planetouched. Spell domain looks amazing. I'm definitely getting travel as one, knowledge will be a bonus, and maybe spell will be my other level 1 domain? I'm thinking domain spontaneity with travel, and what should my contemplative extra domain be? Any ideas?



I agree Spell domain is really strong for a divine caster with a little down time and access to a spellbook but it is limited by having the PC under the Vow of Poverty since the PC can't own a spell book per se. Depends on your DM how you would work around that limitation with a VoP PC and why I edited it out of the previous post.

Normally the Magic domain can be pretty strong for using Wands, Scrolls and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger as a wizard of half your level but VoP limits that.

The Celerity domain or the Fate Domain each have some nice spells and powers especially for a cleric.

In a planar campaign the Portal domain could be pretty good (Teleport) plus the PC can detect active or inactive portals on a DC 20 search check.

Aerogoat
2008-02-03, 11:15 PM
For general synergy, Warblade//Archivist
Just to play with this idea, how about a Grey Elf:
Warblade 1/Duskblade 3/Warblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eternal Blade 10
...on one side...
Archivist 20 on the other.

Pick up Knowledge Devotion and boost your Int/Knowledge skills as much as possible.
Focus on Iron Heart and Diamond Mind counters/defensive maneuvers, use your Arcane Channeling for offensive power.
Spend your Archivist bonus feats for Quicken Spell and Persistant Spell, use your other feats for general melee (and, of course, Extend Spell).


For a Mystic Theurge on steroids, as others have mentioned, Wizard//Archivist has everything based on Int, but is otherwise not the greatest.Erudite//Archivist would do pretty well with a bit of PrC-ing.
Erudite 10/Slayer 10//Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 6/Archivist 11 would have pretty high survivability, 16/20 BAB and access to almost every Power/Spell in the game.


For a more melee-centric build (that should work - I didn't look up anything to check it), maybe something like Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 5//Bard 20. (If you can get away with two PrCs at the same level, maybe Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 to grab 9th level spells.) Maybe throw in a level of Lion Totem (Pouncing) Barbarian somewhere, and grab Snowflake War Dance and the other feats that people usually use for make "battle-bards." That should get you some buffs, good skills, good HD, full BAB, all good saves for most or all levels, spells for buffing, moving during a full attack using two scimitars, and some good out-of-combat abilities. Of course, it's ridiculously MAD (Dex, Con, Int, Cha, and maybe some Str for damage).
Using the Spirit Lion Barbarian would make the entire melee half of that build unnecessary.
Barb 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15//Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 would wind up with about the same effect and full caster levels. Further PrC-ing on the Bard side could be beneficial, but it's by no means necessary.

Sublime Chord combined with Sorcerer and Melodic Casting could be fun. There are certainly better ways of boosting your spell damage, but it might be pretty neat.

Cuddly
2008-02-03, 11:44 PM
I agree Spell domain is really strong for a divine caster with a little down time and access to a spellbook but it is limited by having the PC under the Vow of Poverty since the PC can't own a spell book per se. Depends on your DM how you would work around that limitation with a VoP PC and why I edited it out of the previous post.

Normally the Magic domain can be pretty strong for using Wands, Scrolls and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger as a wizard of half your level but VoP limits that.

The Celerity domain or the Fate Domain each have some nice spells and powers especially for a cleric.

In a planar campaign the Portal domain could be pretty good (Teleport) plus the PC can detect active or inactive portals on a DC 20 search check.

Well, the VoP feat specifically states that you can ride on your friend's ebony steed, so I imagine studying the wizard's spell book to overcome an obstacle would be fair enough, given that I'd be fighting the evilist evil in the whole evil world, without really using any tangible resources I could be giving to hungry orphans.

Zincorium
2008-02-04, 12:09 AM
Want to really go Uber-Theurge?

Cleric 3/Geomancer 10/cleric +7//Wizard 13/Initiate of the sevenfold veil 7

Geomancer is not a dual progression Prc, which alone makes it teh suck in most games, there's really no way to even make it as good as straight wizard or cleric.

BUT... in gestalt you can eliminate your MAD, cast all your wizard spells in full armor and even use DMM on your wizardly buffs. Plus you increase your caster level in certain (exceptionally broad) terrain and get minor benefits from the drift class feature.

On top of that, use the Domain Granted Power alternate class feature from Complete Champion, and you get an additional domain (and not just the domain feature, as you have access to domains you get the full benefit of having that domain).

Lastly, initiate of the sevenfold veil. Not because it needs it, just because it's one of the best wizard Prcs out there and there's enough room in the build for the full progression.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-04, 12:54 AM
Well, the VoP feat specifically states that you can ride on your friend's ebony steed, so I imagine studying the wizard's spell book to overcome an obstacle would be fair enough, given that I'd be fighting the evilist evil in the whole evil world, without really using any tangible resources I could be giving to hungry orphans.

That works I try not to make to many assumptions. It might be nice if the wizard has Fabricate in his spell book for downtime and helping the poor building things.

Some personal body tattoos of spells could also work if paid for with experience points as per Complete Arcane Alternative Spellbooks with no real value to anyone else or perhaps getting to use one of the VoP feats to take Spell Mastery.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-04, 01:26 AM
as long as you are doing a bunch of levels in druid and going to be fighting in wild shape alot...why not take Master of Many Forms? One of the problems with the class is the lack of casting progression, but that is not an issue in gestalt...that level of monk might still be useful...then you still have at least 9 other levels to play with (4 before MoMf, 5 after...or you could stop progression in MoMF early if it suits you).

Just a thought...Dire lion and such is fine and all, but when you can do wartrols and such...sometimes things become really fun.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-04, 01:32 PM
I really hope there's a rule against the following idea...

Wizard 3/ Mystic Theurge 6 // Archivist 9

If that doesn't fall foul of the rules, double spellcasting progression on Archivist.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-04, 02:07 PM
There is a soft rule that frowns on double progression PrC's in Gestalt. It is advised that those classes that offer dual advancement not be allowed, though it says that the DM is free to allow it if they choose (maybe not exactly, but it just advises against it rather than saying 'NO!')

If you can dual progress though...there is always the fun idea of

Wiz 10/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge 7//Cleric 10/Mystic Theurge 3/Eldritch Disciple 7 ----(Actual progression is altered to allow room for prereqs. and to never have more than one PrC at a time).

That gives you Spells as a Cleric of 19th level with a turning check of 17th level, wizard spells at 20th level, and warlock abilities through 17th level.

One might even substitute the variant 'Battle Sorcerer' from unearthed arcana for the wizard levels and take 'armored mage' to allow full casting in medium armor (mithral full plate FTW!), and allows for only 2 stats (Cha and Wis) to do the lifting as opposed to 3.

With that many spells, invocations, and other assorted abilities...you'll never run out of options.

Aside from that...you are technically free to advance in a base class and then take a prestige class that offers advancement in 'an existing spellcasting class'. In that way, you can technically cast spells as a 20th level caster well before you are 20th level...and at 20th level you will be casting at up to a 35th level caster with the right classes.

Aerogoat
2008-02-04, 02:29 PM
I really hope there's a rule against the following idea...

Wizard 3/ Mystic Theurge 6 // Archivist 9
There is. Two, actually.

First, you advance class abilities (including Archivist casting) at the faster of the two progressions (in this case, once for every level). This means that your build would actually be less effective than Wizard 9//Archivist 9 (which would have an extra feat and a more powerful familiar).

Second, classes which advance two casting classes simultaneously are generally disallowed. Often there will be an exception if the build is something like...
Warblade 12//Erudite 3/Archivist 3/Psychic Theurge 6
...because the Psychic Theurge half isn't abusing the Gestalt rules, it's still advancing in the delayed manner it would in a standard game.

This rule is supposed to apply to all "class combination" Prestige Classes, but it's sometimes hard to draw a line with the Caster/Noncaster multiclass PrCs. A good rule of thumb though, is if the class advances two spellcasting* classes at once, it's out. Beyond that most choices are pretty reasonable and are usually allowed.
*Or whatever alternate magic system you're using

And even if a build like yours were legal, it wouldn't be a problem if the rest of the group used similar tactics.

Crimson Avenger
2008-02-04, 02:51 PM
Let's see...

You've got a decent build for a Good character; for the Evil one, how does....

Desert Kobold (UA envioromental Variant - trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty, loses the light blindness, some other minor stuff) Sorcerer-15/Archmage-5//Fighter-4/Monk-3/Blackguard-8/Whatever-5

Take Aescetic Mage (Complete Adventurer - Trades Monk's Wis to AC for Charisma to AC, plus a few less important things).

Charisma is your spellcasting stat.
Aescetic Mage gives you Charisma to AC.
Dark Blessing gives you Charisma to saves.
You've got a really nice HD.
You've got nearly full BAB.
You're a full caster.

What more do you need?
Well, I suppose you could grab the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium - bonus spells known.

This is a great idea, but as a DM I'd not allow it. If you want to use Aesetic Mage, then your Monk and Sorcerer have to be on the same side of the character, otherwise you could build a Sor 10 // Monk 10 and claim the AC bonus of a 20th level monk.

I GM a geshtalt campaign right now. As long as the sides can exist seperately, then there shouldn't be a problem. Synergy is fine, but if you can't achieve something with the side seperated, you shouldn't have been trying it in the first palce.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-04, 04:28 PM
This is a great idea, but as a DM I'd not allow it. If you want to use Aesetic Mage, then your Monk and Sorcerer have to be on the same side of the character, otherwise you could build a Sor 10 // Monk 10 and claim the AC bonus of a 20th level monk.

That's actually laid out in the gestalt rules - you get the faster progression only; AC bonus of a 10th level Monk at 10th level, tops (well, unless you get a Monk's Belt or something...); just like you can't claim Wizard-10//Wizard-10 to cast as a Wizard-20.

Really, though, the difference in AC between a Monk-10's Monkish AC bonus and a Monk-20's Monkish AC bonus is only three points, so it's not particularly major. The only part of the feat I'm really after for the build is the Charisma to AC - which will end up being pretty major, what with the fairly extreme case of SAD.


I GM a geshtalt campaign right now. As long as the sides can exist seperately, then there shouldn't be a problem. Synergy is fine, but if you can't achieve something with the side seperated, you shouldn't have been trying it in the first palce.

Well, my general build for that is Sor-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5//Paladin-5/Monk-15; five levels in Sorcerer, fifteen levels in Monk, taking the Paladin/Monk combo feat as well to maintain Smite; that doesn't work for an Evil build, though, without subbing in Paladin of Tyranny or some such as a base class (because Blackguard is a PrC... but now that I think about it, the Paladin of Tyranny is on his list of sources...) - at no level does it progress at rate faster than normally available.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-04, 05:00 PM
No dual progression is allowed, otherwise you get horrors like the Druid/Arcane Hierophant//Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus that I stated up once for the hell of it. It ended up with casting as a Druid 20, Beguiler 17, Wizard 17. So yes, the no dual-progression thing is a good rule.

FlyMolo
2008-02-04, 08:31 PM
Gestalt can be fun because you can get character concepts that wouldn't work without running into epic levels.

For example, a Thri-keen with permanencied Enlarge Person and Girallon's Blessing. I don't know if GB adds arms, or adds arms till you get to a certain number. I hope the former. Add spiked chains and greatswords until you explode.

Fighter/War Mind//Barbarian. With sweeping strike? Awesome! God of Cleavage! (*facepalm* Yeah, I meant he'd cleave everything in sight, not the other thing.:smallredface: ) Bonus feats you take multiweapon fighting, power attack, cleave and great cleave. Etc etc. Bonus if you take some manifesting class on the side, for more gish happiness. Actually, this would look better as a Fighter/War Mind//Psion, or maybe-//psychic warrior.

Cuddly
2008-02-05, 01:21 AM
Gestalt can be fun because you can get character concepts that wouldn't work without running into epic levels.

For example, a Thri-keen with permanencied Enlarge Person and Girallon's Blessing. I don't know if GB adds arms, or adds arms till you get to a certain number. I hope the former. Add spiked chains and greatswords until you explode.

Fighter/War Mind//Barbarian. With sweeping strike? Awesome! God of Cleavage! (*facepalm* Yeah, I meant he'd cleave everything in sight, not the other thing.:smallredface: ) Bonus feats you take multiweapon fighting, power attack, cleave and great cleave. Etc etc. Bonus if you take some manifesting class on the side, for more gish happiness. Actually, this would look better as a Fighter/War Mind//Psion, or maybe-//psychic warrior.

After I demonstrated the horror that is multiple limbs, my DM has flat out banned anything that has more than two arms.

dyslexicfaser
2008-02-05, 03:42 AM
Fighter/War Mind//Barbarian. With sweeping strike? Awesome! God of Cleavage! (*facepalm* Yeah, I meant he'd cleave everything in sight, not the other thing.:smallredface: ) Bonus feats you take multiweapon fighting, power attack, cleave and great cleave. Etc etc. Bonus if you take some manifesting class on the side, for more gish happiness. Actually, this would look better as a Fighter/War Mind//Psion, or maybe-//psychic warrior.
I keep wanting to make a FighterX//PsyWar5/WarmindX with High Sword Low Axe to see how it would work. Then feats like ITWF, Double Hit, Cleave, and Karmic Strike: you basically turn into a windmill of death. Your attack routine is sword-axe-trip-sword on a regular attack, and on a full attack you get the first combination then wail on their prone bodies. And for each swing, you Sweeping Strike to other nearby enemies. And that doesn't include things like Cleave or Double-Hit-AoO's.

I shudder to think how this would combine with one of the 4-armed guys.

Shudder with glee.

Crazy Scot
2008-02-05, 06:03 AM
First, I need to make a comment on what some of the other posters have said. In UA under the rules for creating Gestalt characters, it specifically states that each level you can choose two base classes to build with, or one base class and one prestige class. You can't choose two prestige classes at any one level. So if you are looking at a full 20-level build, you would only get 40 total levels (20 each) and a normal maximum of only 15 levels of prestige classes (most prestige classes require 5 levels of prerequistes). Some of the ideas that other posters have been putting forward are requiring you to take more than one prestige class at a level, and unfortunately unless you have a VERY lenient DM that would not be allowed.

As for me, well, I can personally tell you that I have been putting together a similar character to your Druid that you were looking at. I was working on just making him a strait Druid (non-gestalt), but I will give you a quick glimpse and you can feel free to use whatever parts you like.

Jungle Kobold (UA environmental racial variant p.15)
Druid 20 (with the druid variant from UA p. 58 – sacrifice your wild shape ability (you can polymorph or shapechange later if you really want to) and your armor/shield proficiencies (you are going Vow of Poverty so this shouldn’t matter), and gain several things all based off of your Druid level: monk’s bonuses to AC (both Wis bonus and the AC bonus), monk’s fast movement (which should probably apply to your fly speed as well), Track feat like a ranger, Favored Enemies as a ranger, and swift tracker as a ranger => IMHO a great trade-off for two abilities (one of which doesn’t matter and one you can get anyway) saving you the dip into Monk and giving you better movement and AC)

Flaws: Shaky, Murky-Eyed (UA p.91 – grants two extra feats at first level)
‘Draconic Rite of Passage’ – Shield (RotD p.43 – grants a single 1st level sorcerer/wizard spell usable 1/day)

First level feats: Dragonwrought, Dragon Wings, Dragon Tail (these three change you from a Humanoid (dragonblooded) to a Dragon-type creature with wings and a tail)
3rd level feat – Sacred Vow
6th level feat – Vow of Poverty
9th level feat – Improved Dragon Wings
12th level feat – Extend Spell
15th level feat – Persistent Spell
18th level feat – Easy Metamagic (Persistent Spell) – (Dragon Magazine #325 => reduces the metamagic feat’s spell level adjustment by 1) (I think there might be another feat from a different source that does the same thing, but I can’t put my hand on it right now.)

Bonus Exalted Feats from Vow of Poverty:
6th level: Intuitive Attack (now you can add your Wisdom bonus to attack rolls as well as your AC (see above) and it also affects the save DC of your spells)
8th level: Sanctify Natural Attack
10th level: Favored of the Champions
12th level: Subduing Strike
14th level: Vow of Nonviolence
16th level: Vow of Peace (you can only do subdual damage to living creatures, but you get another +6 bonus to AC)
18th level: Gift of Faith
20th level: Nymph’s Kiss

I would pump up your Wisdom as high as you can get it from VoPoverty and your level dependent boosts since it affects so many of your abilities (AC, attacks, spells / day, spell save DCs). A high Dex is nice as well, since it will affect your AC and your initiative. You can use spells to boost your Strength and Constitution (check out the “Bite of the ___” spells from the Spell Compendium, or use the old fall-backs of “Bear’s Endurance” and “Bull’s Strength”). A high Constitution will also help out with the ability from VoPeace that says “If a creature strikes you with a manufactured weapon, the weapon must immediately make a successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Con modifier) or shatter against your skin, leaving you unharmed.” (BoED p. 48)

You would still get a number of Favored Enemies (you choose), and with the right selection of spells you could become an amazing “natural” attack specialist. I would recommend the spells: Claws of the Beast (PGF), Crabwalk (SC), Charge of the Triceratops (SC), Lion’s Charge (SC), and your choice of the Bite of the ___ (SC). If you use all of these, you would have 2 claw attacks, 1 bite attack, 1 gore attack, and a tail slap. On a charge, your gore attack would deal double damage, you would get a +4 bonus to hit and no penalty to AC, and you could make a full attack.

There is still plenty of room to play with these, but like I said, with the right selection of spells (and the proper use of the Persistent Spell feat when you get high enough) you could make those last 24 hours each so you would never run out of natural attack at your disposal. And remember, you get your full BAB on your primary attack (if you designate your claws as the primary weapon they both get full BAB), and only -5 to hit on your secondary attacks.

Other options to consider: (templates)
Half-Celestial (+4LA, MM p.144): gives you feathery wings (your DM might allow you to change those to reptilian); a fly speed of double your land speed (freeing up 2 feats for other uses [Dragon Wings, Improved Dragon Wings]); bonuses to all ability scores (either +2 or +4); a boost to Natural AC; spell resistance; damage reduction; and some bonus spells.

Saint (+2LA, BoED p.184; I would HIGHLY recommend this one:smallbiggrin: ): you become a native outsider; gain immunity to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Petrification; gain Fire resistance 10; +2 bonus to the DC of all your special attacks, spells, supernatural, spell-like and extraordinary abilities; +2 to Con and Wis; +4 to Cha; Tounges always on (allows you to talk to anyone); gain an Insight bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom modifier; all melee attacks do +1d6 holy damage vs Evil creatures (or +1d8 vs Evil Undead or Evil Outsiders) and any Evil creature that attacks you with a natural attack takes the same amount of damage; able to cast Guidance, Resistance, Virtue, and Bless at will at a caster level equal to your character level; gain Fast Healing (your HD/2); gain a protective Aura (20’ radius) that can be activated as a free action, that acts as a double strength Magic Circle against Evil and a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability; and you also gain Damage reduction.

As far as the other half of your build, I would recommend the Saint template and maybe the Half-Celestial template (as above). Besides that, you could go with a fighter-type character that would help boost your BAB (I would probably recommend Warblade from the Book of Nine Swords since you can use those abilities with your unarmed attacks). Or you could go with a sneaky-type character (probably rouge to get sneak attack). You could try to go with an arcane caster-type, but most of their spells are damaging spells and would go against the VoPeace feat. I would recommend staying away from another divine caster-type base class since you already have some healing capabilities and the other benefits that you would get from them are IMO not worth the dip into the class. As far as prestige classes go, it depends upon what you want to do. If you want to get into shapeshifting more, I would recommend Shifter from “Masters of the Wild” p.68 (a 10 level prestige class that eventually allows you to shift at will as a move action, and allows you to assume the form of any type of creature except Fey, and any size of creature except Colossal). Your idea to go into Lion of Talisid could grant you several other good abilities to go with the idea of a natural attack fighter. Your idea to take one level of Sentinel of Bharrai might not be worth it IMO, since you could get the Track feat through the alternate class ability I mentioned above, your caster level can’t be higher than your character level (and since you are maxing out your Druid levels that won’t help unless you dip into a different divine caster class), which would only give you the ‘nature friendly spells’ ability. You could go several other ways with this build, but it is really up to you as to which way you want to specialize.

Like I said, there is still plenty of room to play with this build any way you choose, but there are some other good options here to play with. Use at your own discretion or pleasure (your choice).

Crazy Scot
2008-02-05, 06:32 AM
One more thought to go along with my last post (yes, I know it was long). Try this one out for size: Warforged (Eb CS), Druid 20 (per my other post), with the Saint template (BoED p.184) and the Half-Battle Dragon (RotD p.69).

You would still have 15 levels of other things to play with, but try this on for size:

Base ability score modifiers: Str: +8, Con: +6, Int: +2, Cha: +4

Gain an Insight bonus to AC = Wisdom modifier

Gain a +2 bonus to DC for all special attacks, (sp), (su) and (ex) abilities.

Increased damage vs evil creatures

Natural AC +4

A few bonus spells usable at will

Gain DR and Fast Healing

Low-Light vision, Darkvision 60'

Protective aura (as my other post)

Immunities: acid, cold, electricity, sonic, petrification, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain.

Fire Resistance 10

You would have fast healing from the Saint template, so take the feat Improved Fortification (Eb CS) that says you aren't affected by Conjuration (Healing) spells but are now immune to critical hits and sneak attack damage.

Natural Attacks: (1) Slam attack 1d4 dam, (2) claw attacks 1d4 dam, (1) bite attack 1d6 dam

Breath Weapon (usable 1/day [or once every 1d4 rounds with the feat Dragon Breath (RotD p.98)]) 30' cone of Sonic doing 6d8 damage, DC Con-based

You don't need to eat, sleep, or breathe, and you only need to rest to prepare spells if you are an arcane caster type.

Swooper
2008-02-05, 06:36 AM
I'm fond of the Psion//Warblade idea mentioned above. Right from the start, it's an amazing combo. No spell failure for the armour, unlike Wizard//Warblade. Max your concentration, and go for Psionic feats, Diamond Mind manouvres, and a Deep Crystal Powerstoring weapon when you can.

At 1st level with, say, a greatsword: 2d6(weapon)+2d6(Psionic Weapon)+1d6(Punishing Stance)+1d6(Sapphire Nightmare Blade)+Str=6d6+Str in one blow. Meanwhile, you can still have a nice AC and HP from your Force Screen and Vigor. By 3rd level, you can get either Mountain Hammer or Emerald Razor, making you even more formidable. Then, when you get access to the 'damage with Concentration check' DM manouvres, use your psionic focus to take 15 on them. Very solid high damage.

Of course, the problem with this build is that many of the best melee powers are PsyWar only - might be remedied by taking an Extra Power feat or two, but those won't take you far since you have better stuff to put your feats into. The alternative to this is the, I think slightly less powerful but potent anyway, Psychic Warrior//Swordsage. I haven't given it as much thought, but it should operate on many of the same principles. Less HP and less BAB, but better melee powers.

Talic
2008-02-05, 06:44 AM
11
14
16
14
18
16

It's going to start at level 9, and be a plane hopping sort of game. Lots of travel, anyway, and I think the DM will be tossing out lots of magic items, as it is in his nature.

Not sure if the party will be good or evil, so I'm working out multiple characters. For the good character, I'm thinking:

Druid9//cleric4/monk1/sentinel of Bharrai1/Lion of Talisid 3 is what I'm looking at, aiming for Druid20//cleric4/monk1/sentinel of Bharrai1/Lion of Talisid 5/contemplative1/???.

Feats will be:
1. Sacred Vow, VoP, Nymph's Kiss
2 Vow of Obedience
3. Domain Spontaneity
4. Touch of Golden Ice
6. Sanctify Natural Attack, Natural Spell, Track (bonus from SoB)
8. Exalted Wild Shape
9. Multiattack

VoP saves me the hassle of paging through dozens of books looking for the perfect equipment, which, due to the high cost of wilding items, won't help me out any way, since I wouldn't be able to afford them at level 9. 1 level of Monk nets me wisdom to AC, which, with two age categories and a boost from VoP, will be +7, for a total of 31 AC in Dire Lion morph. With a pouncing flurry while under divine power, I'll have attack routine +17/+17/+17/+15 with two rakes at +15 if the bite lands. 5 levels of Lion of Talisid will yield scent, which will go well with track, exalted animal companion, as well as pounce. Pounce = Pouncing squid, pouncing bears, etc. However, most of the animals I'm looking at turning into (cats, megaraptor) either already have pounce, or only have one attack. Is Lion of Talisid 5 worth it? Or should I go something else? What would be the best morph? I'm leaning megaraptor for getting 5 attacks instead of 4 as a dire lion, though my strength goes down by 4. A fleshraker with righteous might would be pretty BA, and combined with touch of golden ice, there's potential for some serious dex damage.

My other thought for a (non-good) build would be venerable dragonwrought kobold sorceror//??. Looking through race of the dragon and dragon magic, there is some high potential for a really quality blasting character using breath weapons and the like.

Druid 5/MoMF 10/Cleric 3-7
Monk 1/Cleric 2/Psionic Warrior 17

Now, not only do you get Wis to AC, you get a really butch array of shapeshifting, and the ability to manifest all sorts of buffs even while shifted (no VSM for Psiwar abilities). Wis also synergises with PsiWar Powers, and you get enough bonus feats to use the shock trooper tree, if you want. Pouncing Shocktrooper Dragons are pretty good, I hear. Especially if you have a Form of Doom (PsiWar) for some extra tentacle attack goodness... Psionic Lion's Charge also gives a charge, with an attack bonus, making the other PrC a bit redundant. Cleric gives you divine power, and if you can convince the DM to allow DMM on the grounds that you only get 1 extra turning feat, and disallow Nightsticks, you can persist it.

Rec Stat Distribution:
Str: 11
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 16
Wis: 18
Cha: 14

As your physical stats are replaced in wild form, and you start with shifting, dump Str and dex. Con is good, as you don't get con mod to HP when in Wild shape. Int gives you skills, wis is casting, AC, and manifesting.

Ramos
2008-02-05, 06:53 AM
How about this:

Succubus 12/Hexblade 4/Rogue 4 // Sorceror 16/Archmage 4

A simple gestalt monster build-but a strong one. You'll be practically immune to anything needing a save thanks to mettle (and a ring of evasion) plus you'll have some good spellcasting and pretty decent AC.

Cuddly
2008-02-06, 08:41 PM
How about this:

Succubus 12/Hexblade 4/Rogue 4 // Sorceror 16/Archmage 4

A simple gestalt monster build-but a strong one. You'll be practically immune to anything needing a save thanks to mettle (and a ring of evasion) plus you'll have some good spellcasting and pretty decent AC.

That'd be great if the game started at 12th level. But it starts at 9th.

Psywar/druid would be pretty neat. The bonus feats would make me even more of a combat monster.

Right now I'm looking at wizard5/fatespinner3/incantatrix3/IotSV7/AM2//Archivist20.

Any ideas of what would go well on the other side of beguiler? I'm thinking beguiler shadowcrafter//warblade.

Aerogoat
2008-02-06, 09:02 PM
Any ideas of what would go well on the other side of beguiler? I'm thinking beguiler shadowcrafter//warblade.If you go for this approach, you should probably invest the Warblade maneuvers in Counters and other "passive" defenses. This is under the assumption that your offensive power is mostly derived from the casting side of the build.

Cuddly
2008-02-07, 06:02 AM
If I do a wizard//archivist, what schools should my wizard ban? Should I go focused specialist and skip Incantatrix, or ban 4 wizard schools? Currently, I'm thinking of dropping evocation, enchantment and divination.