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View Full Version : Stabbity-STAB! [Feats] PEACH



Zenos
2008-02-04, 11:46 AM
Ahem, I'm making some feats for use by assassin's and rogues, and other peopel who run around on the rooftops and backstab people. Please tell me if something like this has been done before:

Parkour
You are adept at moving fast and efficiently through a city.
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on balance, climb and jump checks in a city environment, as well as a +4 bonus on tumble checks to avoid falling damage and moving through urban difficult ground.

Brutal Stab
You are adept at using knives and daggers to cause grievous wounds.
Requirement: Power attack, 13 STR
Benefit: When can power attack with a light weapon as if it were a one-handed weapon. (The bonus damage is actually the results of twisting the dagger around and hitting vital organs).

Improved Brutal Stab
You are very adept at using knives and daggers to cause grievous wounds.
Requirement: Power attack, Power Stab, 13 STR, 13 INT, 13 DEX, +4 BAB.
Benefit: You can count a light weapon as if it were a two-handed weapon for the purposes of using the power attack feat.

Leaping Death
When you try to assassinate someone, you leap at them, putting your whole weight behind the attack to maximise the physical shock.
Requirements: Leap attack, Improved Power Stab, Death attack class ability, DEX 13 INT 15.
Benefits: You can do a Leap Attack at the moment you strike with your Death Attack, and can opt to move the points of extra damage you would have gotten by use of Power Attack over onto the DC of the Death Attack.

Please don't Evil Eye me :smalleek: .

Zenos
2008-02-04, 02:02 PM
No comments?

Bryn
2008-02-04, 02:24 PM
Has someone been playing Assassin's Creed recently? :smallamused:

They're definitely on the powerful side, not that that is necessarily bad since otherwise people might not be interested in taking them. Even so, many people might consider them overpowered.

You might want to put the prerequisites for Power Attack (and Leap Attack later on) in with the Power Attack-based ones, based on the pattern shown in the core rules for Cleave etc.

You could also clarify Improved Power Stab. Although your intended meaning is clear, the last line suggests that the light weapon is treated as a two-handed weapon for all purposes. A simple "for the purposes of Power Attack damage" would clarify things.

Zenos
2008-02-04, 02:28 PM
Has someone been playing Assassin's Creed recently? :smallamused:

They're definitely on the powerful side, not that that is necessarily bad since otherwise people might not be interested in taking them. Even so, many people might consider them overpowered.

You might want to put the prerequisites for Power Attack (and Leap Attack later on) in with the Power Attack-based ones, based on the pattern shown in the core rules for Cleave etc.

You could also clarify Improved Power Stab. Although your intended meaning is clear, the last line suggests that the light weapon is treated as a two-handed weapon for all purposes. A simple "for the purposes of Power Attack damage" would clarify things.

Ok, I'll fix it a little.

I've not actualy played Assassin's Creed, since I don't have an Xbox, I am waiting for the PC version. but yeah, I made these feats mainly so I could make a ninja/assassin/maybe something else multiclass to move around in an urban environment and kill people I and my companions don't like don't like.

No more comments? Then I'll be printing those feats for use.

Efil
2008-02-04, 03:45 PM
I think the feats are prettty cool. Also, the Assassin prc is somewhat... weak, so i think sacrificing some accuracy for a death attack that works is ok. The assassin still has to stare at a person for 18 seconds (Why is that guy staring at me?).

EDIT: I just realized that death attack DC gets very high.

Doberler
2008-02-04, 03:52 PM
I agree... I do like these feats... I may have to show these to my DM to see if my Pixie Assassin can take these cause god knows that the DC for Death Attack is too easily passed by 90% of creatures who don't have class levels

Zenos
2008-02-04, 04:01 PM
I am glad to see my homebrew is appreciated.

DrizztFan24
2008-02-07, 05:31 PM
I like the concept, but the mechanics seem a little wierd to me.

For one, I play that kind of an assassin, and the parkour feat is pretty cool and makes sense. But the power stab stuff doesn't make sense to me, the harder you stab someone doesn't deal more damage, stabbing in the right places deals more dmg. I would probably go the route of weapon finesse instead of power attack for the power stab; improved...I hav eno idea where to go with that one.

But I do like the thoughts of flying leaps of death that monster actually fail their DC's on, but thats a lot of feats to drop for a limited use feature.

the only other feats I've seen with requirements like that are ones like whirlwind attack and weapon mastery (or somesuch, in PHBII you get insane bonuses with one class of weapon, one requirment is lvl 18 fighter)

otherwise it seems good

thoughts? rejections?

Caracol
2008-02-07, 07:50 PM
The death leap attack is nice.
Parkour is awesome. You don't have never enough degrees in balance, climb, tumble and jump. And for a rogue they are essential.
But the power stab... As DrizztFan24 said, stabbing someone harder does not make more damage, especially for rogue-like characters which don't stab hard but know where they stab. A rogue usually does not have a gigantic attack bonus, so it'unlikely that he will trade attack bonuses for damage.
An Improved Finesse Attack should be the right correspondance, but trading Dex to do more damage sounds stupid.
A suggestion: for fighting style feats, take inspiration from martial arts. There are plenty of stealthy kill techiques (especially in military martial arts), that focuses on hitting in places such throat, leg, arm, all stuff that incapacitate the enemy or make him bleed bad.

DrizztFan24
2008-02-07, 10:36 PM
A suggestion: for fighting style feats, take inspiration from martial arts. There are plenty of stealthy kill techiques (especially in military martial arts), that focuses on hitting in places such throat, leg, arm, all stuff that incapacitate the enemy or make him bleed bad.

Maybe you could do as mentioned above and use Assassin's Creed for inspiration, same kind of feats (I've beaten the game and the feats are similar to game advances)

maybe have the Leap Attack O' Deadly Saves be something like the Style of the Hashshashin feat and you could make a whole branch of different feats based on different styles (don't they do the same thing with monks in the PHBII?)-paralyzing strikes, disarming strike, bleeding strike to deal continuous damage; buncha potential

Fiery Diamond
2008-02-08, 03:17 AM
Posted by earlier posters:

I like the concept, but the mechanics seem a little wierd to me.

For one, I play that kind of an assassin, and the parkour feat is pretty cool and makes sense. But the power stab stuff doesn't make sense to me, the harder you stab someone doesn't deal more damage, stabbing in the right places deals more dmg. I would probably go the route of weapon finesse instead of power attack for the power stab; improved...I hav eno idea where to go with that one.



But the power stab... As DrizztFan24 said, stabbing someone harder does not make more damage, especially for rogue-like characters which don't stab hard but know where they stab. A rogue usually does not have a gigantic attack bonus, so it'unlikely that he will trade attack bonuses for damage.
An Improved Finesse Attack should be the right correspondance, but trading Dex to do more damage sounds stupid.
A suggestion: for fighting style feats, take inspiration from martial arts. There are plenty of stealthy kill techiques (especially in military martial arts), that focuses on hitting in places such throat, leg, arm, all stuff that incapacitate the enemy or make him bleed bad.

Sorry, but no. I have to disagree with these posters on their premise: stabbing in the right places does do more damage, but stabbing harder does, in fact, do more damage. Mechanically, this is already the case: Str bonus to damage rolls - that's what Str bonus does, it makes you attack harder. Secondly, I suggest that anyone who doesn't believe stabbing harder does more damage in real life take a knife and test it out. I think you will be surprised to find that deeper stabs do, in fact, hurt more. Stabbing harder = deeper stabs. That's obvious.

That said, I would probably rather, myself, go along the road of Finesse, creating feats there, but this is still ok.

-Fiery Diamond

Caracol
2008-02-08, 05:26 AM
but stabbing harder does, in fact, do more damage. Mechanically, this is already the case: Str bonus to damage rolls - that's what Str bonus does, it makes you attack harder...Stabbing harder = deeper stabs.
-Fiery Diamond
Not really. Once you plunge the whole blade into the flesh, it doesn't matter if you do it hard or slow. For what regards piercing weapon, they cannot go into any more once they are all inside. A dagger does more damage if it goes deep, but you can do this slowly or fast, and without Str involved.
I've never been stabbed (although I was treathned by a dumbass once), so I can't really be sure about what I'm saying, but I train in kendo (japanese fencing), and they teach to you to not use too much strength while you're hitting something.

Anyway, let's quit with this hypotetical gibberish: in DnD, as I said, rogues have weaker attack bonus and they'd better not lower it just to do more damage. A rogue is not the damage-booster type of combatant, but even if he would, there's sneak attack already to do more damage.

ShinyRocks
2008-02-08, 05:48 AM
As ever, I stress my complete ignorance of D&D but couldn't something like this work well:

Precise Strike
Requirements: Weapon Finesse, 14 Dex
Benefit: You are able to aim your strikes with light weapons at vulnerable spots in your target's body, allowing you to add your dex modifier to damage isntead of str.

Improved Precise Strike
Requirements: Precise Strike, 14 Int, Knowledge (Nature) 8 ranks.
Benefit: Your knowledge of anatomy and vulnerable points is second to none. You may add your int. modifier to hit rolls and damage rolls made with light weapons. This stacks with your dex modifier from Weapon Finesse and Precise Strike.


I just scribbled that in about 5 minutes so feel free to tear it to pieces.

SilentNight
2008-02-08, 09:58 AM
Leaping Death
Requirements: Leap attack, Improved Power Stab, Death attack class ability.
Benefits: You can do a Leap Attack at the moment you strike with your Death Attack, and can opt to move the points of extra damage you would have gotten by use of Power Attack over onto the DC of the Death Attack.



They look nice except this one. a rog1/ftr4/asn1 could get roughly, hold on, a DC 45 death attack. Do I smell cheese? I would change it so that you add the penalty rather than the bonus to your death attack DC.

Magnor Criol
2008-02-08, 10:59 AM
Improved Precise Strike
Requirements: Precise Strike, 14 Int, Knowledge (Nature) 8 ranks.
Benefit: Your knowledge of anatomy and vulnerable points is second to none. You may add your int. modifier to hit rolls and damage rolls made with light weapons. This stacks with your dex modifier from Weapon Finesse and Precise Strike.

Knowledge (Nature) is usually used for animals, plants, wilderness, and the like. It doesn't really work for this (though I understand your reasoning for it). I'd choose Heal, instead; it's a slightly unorthodox for most melee-ers to have, though certainly not any more so than Knowledge (Nature), but it's very logical that a better understanding of how to heal would lead to a better understanding of how to hurt. (I believe this idea has been done before, actually.)

ShinyRocks
2008-02-08, 11:08 AM
Knowledge (Nature) is usually used for animals, plants, wilderness, and the like. It doesn't really work for this (though I understand your reasoning for it). I'd choose Heal, instead; it's a slightly unorthodox for most melee-ers to have, though certainly not any more so than Knowledge (Nature), but it's very logical that a better understanding of how to heal would lead to a better understanding of how to hurt. (I believe this idea has been done before, actually.)

Ahh, yeah, Heal would make more sense. It was the best I could come up with given there's no Knowledge (Anatomy) or Knowledge (Biology).

(It probably has! I'm new, and haven't exactly delved the archives of the boards.)

DrizztFan24
2008-02-08, 12:57 PM
Ahh, yeah, Heal would make more sense. It was the best I could come up with given there's no Knowledge (Anatomy) or Knowledge (Biology).

(It probably has! I'm new, and haven't exactly delved the archives of the boards.)

Im not sure it would make more sense, then you would have to invest alot of points into a cross-class skill to get a quasi-class ability, what if you had to have at least 1d6 sneak attack or an equivalent? the sneak attack damage is from knowing where to strike on the target (hence undead and constructs have no vital organs and don't have "special" areas to strike) and then a rogue would not have to throw points down the drain on heal instead of investing in other skills they may use.

Fiery Diamond
2008-02-08, 09:46 PM
One last comment on my part, then I'll shut up...that is, unless someone actually wants to prolong this: I'm just trying to make a point.


Not really. Once you plunge the whole blade into the flesh, it doesn't matter if you do it hard or slow. For what regards piercing weapon, they cannot go into any more once they are all inside. A dagger does more damage if it goes deep, but you can do this slowly or fast, and without Str involved.
I've never been stabbed (although I was treathned by a dumbass once), so I can't really be sure about what I'm saying, but I train in kendo (japanese fencing), and they teach to you to not use too much strength while you're hitting something.

While I acknowledge several statements of yours to be true:
1) It doesn't matter whether it is slow or fast (although it does make some difference, for purposes of D&D, the difference would be completely negligible)
2) A dagger does more damage if it goes deeper, and it can't go past a certain point
3) I believe you about kendo

-that still doesn't make my statement false. This is because you make two fundamental errors. The first is a definitional error. How hard you stab =/= how fast you stab. You define them as the same thing - in reality, they are quite different. Stabbing harder means applying more pressure, not stabbing faster. The second is a false assumption: that the standard stabbing attack completely plunges the blade into the flesh. This is a false assumption. A standard attack would probably put it about halfway in, with a higher Str bonus allowing you to push it in further.

Stabbing faster, as you say, does not necessarily make a deeper wound. However, applying more pressure (to a certain point, which is when the blade is all the way inside, after which it doesn't really make a difference) does cause deeper wounds, and therefore more damage.

-Fiery Diamond


Edit: Reply to another above post.


Precise Strike
Requirements: Weapon Finesse, 14 Dex
Benefit: You are able to aim your strikes with light weapons at vulnerable spots in your target's body, allowing you to add your dex modifier to damage isntead of str.

I actually created something very much like this, it's on these forums somewhere. It's titled "Weapon Artistry." You can look for it if you like. I think my version is slightly more powerful - it doesn't require that high a Dex (although, honestly, if you wanted a feat like this you would have a Dex at least that high) and can be used with any weapon that weapon finesse can be used with (including rapiers). Then again, I also had the restriction that you couldn't use the feat if you were equipping a shield, so maybe it isn't more powerful.

Raging_Pacifist
2008-02-09, 12:25 AM
Stabbing someone hard can only do so much damage to a person so on power stab maybe make it to a max. of 3

Nebo_
2008-02-09, 01:35 AM
Stabbing someone hard can only do so much damage to a person so on power stab maybe make it to a max. of 3

Not if you're an adventurer who took a feat to be really good at it. That's a terrible reason to put a restriction on a feat. It needs to be mechanically viable to be a good feat and saying 'you can only stab so hard' is a useless and fallacious statement.

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-09, 03:04 AM
Parkour
You are adept at moving fast and efficiently through a city.
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on balance, climb and jump checks in a city environment, as well as a +4 bonus on tumble checks to avoid falling damage and moving through urban difficult ground.


+4 on 4 separate skills seems like a little much, even for an urban environment. Consider making it a stackable +2 to balance, climb, jump, tumble in an urban environment. Possibly adding the prereqs: Agile and Acrobatic.



Power Stab
You are adept at using knives and daggers to cause grievous wounds.
Requirement: Power attack, 13 STR
Benefit: When can pwoer attack with a light weapon.


Consider a rename to something like powerful grip or something of that nature. The benefit would be better if it was something like: You may treat any weapon you are proficient with as one size category larger for the purposes of the power attack feat. Light Weapons improve to one handed and one handed improves to two handed. Two handed weapons do not improve. Consider adding an extra pre req, like weapon focus. Dual wielding longswords can get ridiculous power attack return with leap attack and shocktrooper, so weapon focus seems like a good for nothin feat that can help balance this out.



Improved Power Stab
You are very adept at using knives and daggers to cause grievous wounds.
Requirement: Power attack, Power Stab, 13 STR
Benefit: You can count a light weapon as if it were a two-handed weapon for the purposes of using the power attack feat.


I wouldn't have this feat at all. Nothing in my mind can allow you to power attack with a dagger the same way as a heavy pick... even with the feat, you can still power attack with light weapons, you shouldn't be able to power attack with light weapons as good as other weapons.



Leaping Death
Requirements: Leap attack, Improved Power Stab, Death attack class ability.
Benefits: You can do a Leap Attack at the moment you strike with your Death Attack, and can opt to move the points of extra damage you would have gotten by use of Power Attack over onto the DC of the Death Attack.


Consider taking out Leap Attack and improved Power Stab or power stab as pre reqs. Add in a certain number of sneak attack dice (possibly 5d6 showing a high level assasin or reasonably high level rogue/assassin dip), Knowledge Anatomy or heal skill ranks and power attack as pre reqs. Benefit should read something to the effect of: When using the power attack feat to deliver a death attack. you may choose to negate the bonus damage from power attack and add half of your penalty to hit as a bonus to the save DC of power attack.

The DC for a death attack can be pretty high as it is, at epic levels a rogue4/fighter6/Assassin 10, using shock trooper and a full power attack would have a death attack DC of 28+int which is pretty high as DCs go. Not to mention I think there are items and spells that can augment this.

Edit: I do not have a problem with stabbing harder dealing more damage on sneak attack. I have a small quibble with using power attack (recklessly giving up accuracy and focusing more on brute str) dealing more damage on a death attack (very accurate attack, focusing more on hitting the right part of the body the right way to cause death). Not saying you can't death and power attack already, just a minor quibble in my brain.

Zenos
2008-02-10, 05:21 AM
I like the concept, but the mechanics seem a little wierd to me.

For one, I play that kind of an assassin, and the parkour feat is pretty cool and makes sense. But the power stab stuff doesn't make sense to me, the harder you stab someone doesn't deal more damage, stabbing in the right places deals more dmg. I would probably go the route of weapon finesse instead of power attack for the power stab; improved...I hav eno idea where to go with that one.

But I do like the thoughts of flying leaps of death that monster actually fail their DC's on, but thats a lot of feats to drop for a limited use feature.

the only other feats I've seen with requirements like that are ones like whirlwind attack and weapon mastery (or somesuch, in PHBII you get insane bonuses with one class of weapon, one requirment is lvl 18 fighter)

otherwise it seems good

thoughts? rejections?

What I was thinking was that you simply hold it reversed so you get better leverage, but holding it that way is slightly.. unwieldy.

About the lots of feats required, I made it kind of for E6 so we're likely to have lots of feats compared to other class features so that is O.K.

TheGeek
2008-04-19, 09:04 PM
Great feats! Without jumping into the fray of that last power attack/death attack one, I just have one comment.

You might want to add into the Parkour feat, "or in similar terrain."
I can see how being good at Parkour/free running could make jumping around through ruins, or even a dense forest, easier.

Or the DM could wave his/her hand and Rule-0 it. :smallwink: