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View Full Version : What actually constitutes "Monk-ness?"



Frosty
2008-02-04, 02:33 PM
I've seen many people claim that the best way to optimize a Monk is to try to be as non-monk as possible. But, what exactly does that mean? One definition could be: use PRCs a whole bunch and multiclass out. If that's the case, then wouldn't Wizard 5/magic PRC x/Iot7V 7/Archmage5 count as "non-wizard"-ness? But nobody ever says that, because the main feature of being a Wizard is still present and advanced through all of the PRCs. What's the main feature of a wizard? Vancian casting of arcane spells. The character advances the main feature throughout the build, hence it is still a wizard build.

Now, we can try to apply the same thing for a Monk. If a Monk's PRC advances the main features of a Monk, then the build is still a Monk build. This brings us to the thread title question: What are the main features of a Monk? What gives a Monk its "Monk-ness?"

It can't just be fast movement. Plenty of classes have that. Pugilism? Well, an unarmed fighter can do more damage than Monks. Wisdom to AC? Well, you keep that feature, but you don't really advance it with PRCs. Stunning Fist? DC is based on Wisdom and total character levels, not just Monk levels, so it's not really a monk-specific thing.

What is it about a Monk that gives it a Monk feeling? In making a Monk build, how far can one go before the character isn't really a Monk anymore and instead just a character with a Monk dip?

Telonius
2008-02-04, 02:54 PM
I'll answer a slightly different version of the question. If I were going to make up a new base class altogether, and make it into what I think the Monk ought to have been, what would I keep?

1. Enhanced damage on unarmed attacks. First and most important. Monks have to be able to hit harder than other unarmed folks.
2. Flurry of Blows. If it doesn't have that, it won't feel like a monk. The monk needs to be able to attack more times in a full attack than a fighter can.
3. The class has to be able to attack with any part of the body.
4. The class has to have bonus feats involving unarmed attacks (stunning fist, etc) and battlefield control (improved grapple, improved disarm etc).
5. Special monk weapons need to exist. Not necessarily the same list they have now, but they need to exist.
6. Fast movement is one of those Monk things that has to stay. I don't think any other class gets more than +10 to base speed.
7. Slow Fall is another iconic Monk ability.
8. Has to be unarmored.

So, having said all of that, an answer to your original question ... I would say that Monk levels up to either 9 (no penalty to flurry) or 11 (greater flurry) are the minimum for a Monk-ish character before multiclassing. The abilities you get from there on out aren't as central to the iconic monk (IMO), but you need the flurry bonuses to pull off the monk feel.

If you're multiclassing to a full-BAB class, multiclass at either level 9 or level 12. From 11 to 12, you get a save bump, BAB increase, Abundant Step, more slow fall, +10 speed, and an increase to unarmed strike damage.

Frosty
2008-02-04, 03:01 PM
Scout has more than +10. For PRCs, Dervish as well.

Theodoxus
2008-02-04, 03:27 PM
I think the problem originates with the term 'monk' in the first place.

Wuxia Master would have probably been a better moniker, and as such, there are a few general concepts that are universal... (Telonius numerated them nicely.)

Of course, if you're working with a different set of criteria for defining 'monk', then you'll need to designate them first.

Emperor Demonking
2008-02-04, 04:08 PM
Its survivability by surviving rather than killing in my opinion.

Frosty
2008-02-04, 04:26 PM
Of course, if you're working with a different set of criteria for defining 'monk', then you'll need to designate them first.

That's what I'm asking everybodys' opinion of.

Ascension
2008-02-04, 04:44 PM
I think the problem originates with the term 'monk' in the first place.

Wuxia Master would have probably been a better moniker, and as such, there are a few general concepts that are universal...

I'll go with this. If I were going to play a monk, I'd play a cloistered cleric. The so called "monk"... he's totally out of his element. He's surrounded by Europeans. No wonder he looks out of place! The unarmed swordsage gets "monk" right because it's unabashedly Oriental. It makes no attempt to fit in with mainstream D&D. It admits, like Michael Jackson in Thriller, that it's not like other guys. "Monk" should never have been a core class. It should have been in the OA sourcebook or something similar. If there's going to be a "monk" in core, it ought to be the cloistered cleric.

fendrin
2008-02-04, 04:45 PM
to try to be a bit more helpful than some of the other respondents, I think the 'phb base class called monk'-ness (in non-fluff terms) is primarily as follows:

Advantage to fighting unarmed or with special weaponry
mobility
Focus on evading attacks over absorbing them
Flexibility of combat actions


The base class achieves these (or tries to) as follows:

Unarmed damage, Flurry of blows, free exotic weapon proficiencies
enhanced speed, movement skills, various movement abilities
Wis to AC, AC bonus, high saves, evasion
variety of combat options (flurry, grapple, trip, stunning fist)


One has to be careful about continuation of specific monk abilities, as many specifically monk-like PrCs do not progress them (especially flurry of blows. Many monk-like PrCs do not advance it.

So I would say that a monk/cleric/sacred fist is monk-like, as is a monk/wizard/enlightened fist.

A fighter focusing on unarmed attacks, while perhaps a better pugilist that a monk, lacks the focus on mobility and evasion.

A rogue built to focus on unarmed attacks has the pugilism, the evasion, some of the mobility, but is much more limited on flexibility of combat styles.

Frosty
2008-02-04, 05:05 PM
Fendrin wins a cookie for the first one to fully answer the question. :smile:

Now as a folow up to Fendrin, based on what you feel is the core of monk-ness in terms of mechanics, do you feel it is true that most people, when they try to optimize the monk, in actuality is moving as far away from monkness as possible by advancing non-monk things over monk abilities?

Indon
2008-02-04, 05:25 PM
Personally, I'd say that monk optimization generally focuses on one aspect of the class to the detriment of all others (generally, taking a lot of attacks, or stunning fist). However, I don't think this is the only class which functions like this.

All too common will a Barbarian build focus exclusively on massive charge damage, or a Paladin or Ranger build neglect their divine casting or other features, and an optimized Bard is going to lose out on at least a couple of their own multiple class features.

I think it's a downside of classes which are innately jack-of-all-tradesish. Prestige classes, which generally offer attractive power options, are also generally specialized, meaning that generalist classes such as the Monk and Bard (whose spellcasting can make up for that downside) and Druid (whose almost everything can make up for that downside) must give up more than average to be able to access them.

Edit: Think of it like this - what do you prestige a Factotum into?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-04, 05:29 PM
Edit: Think of it like this - what do you prestige a Factotum into?

Chameleon.

Indon
2008-02-04, 05:33 PM
Chameleon.

You still lose progression on a number of his significant class features.

Frosty
2008-02-04, 05:43 PM
i don't think I'd want to PRC out of Factotum at all :p Just like I usually won't PRC out of Beguiler.

fendrin
2008-02-04, 07:37 PM
Personally, I'd say that monk optimization generally focuses on one aspect of the class to the detriment of all others (generally, taking a lot of attacks, or stunning fist). However, I don't think this is the only class which functions like this.

Pretty much by definition PrCs are for specializing or for adding special abilities. Both typically come at the expense of one or more aspects of the base class.
Of course, many PrCs violate this concept, and, interestingly enough, they are the ones that people label as overpowered.