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View Full Version : Pure Sadism: Villain "Breeding" Lycanthropic PCs...Unwilling Ones.



Leliel
2008-02-04, 07:54 PM
As people should know by now, I am planning to run a non-evil afflicted werebeast campagin. For the most part, I intend to have my BBEGs in it sympathetic...Except one.

Basically, he's one of the masters of a coliseum/battle arena that regularly features fights between lycanthrope gladiators. Of course, after finding out about the PC's exploits, he decides that they would be an excellent addition to his team, and, not viewing werebeasts as anything more than highly intelligent animals, he captures them and press-gangs them into service. When they win a fight that he had expected them to lose (badly), he decides that as one should treat them as one should treat prize racehorses: Breed them, and get the desirable traits in the next generation.

Unfortunately for the female PCs in the party, he doesn't actually care if they want to be bred or not. If they don't, well..."Sorry about having to force your friend to rape you."

Needless to say, I am not looking for sympathy.

So, is this a good idea? Or is it just too mean an idea to spring on them?

Oh, and one more thing: I actually plan on having the main villain free them from the slammer, beacuse "Even I have standards".

Tengu
2008-02-04, 07:57 PM
RAPING A CHARACTER, NO MATTER WHAT IS THE CHARACTER'S OR THE PLAYER'S GENDER, WITHOUT THE PLAYER'S CONSENT, IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA!!!

Seriously. Many, many gamers, especially female ones, leave games where that happens. Often in tears.

Leliel
2008-02-04, 08:00 PM
Whoa whoa whoa...Easy Tengu. Just saying it was an idea.

And frankly, I have reservations too. Thats why I asked.

EDIT: And don't worry, I fully plan on asking the players first.

Raider
2008-02-04, 08:01 PM
As a DM you can't force your players to do anything

Leliel
2008-02-04, 08:03 PM
As a DM you can't force your players to do anything

Simple. NPC.

Rutee
2008-02-04, 08:08 PM
Bad idea to even bring it up in-game without player approval. I'm sorry, but this is just.. no. This is the sort of thing that.. can really ruin a story's feel.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-04, 08:09 PM
Sounds like a REALLY good idea...

Done appropiately. Make sure there's some way for the PC's to get out of the situation, preferably more than one. There's an easy to see, but with not-too-good-results option, a harder one with a better result, etc., up to the point where there's a Guide Dangit like way of getting out of the mess that gives them really phat lewt.

Bauglir
2008-02-04, 08:09 PM
Actually, as a DM, you can do just that (make PCs do something). However, that doesn't mean you SHOULD, and a good DM usually tries to avoid forcing characters into a "this is your only choice" situation.

This sounds to me like one of those things that a DM should talk about with players in advance and make sure they're all cool with it. If even one isn't, then don't do it. If at all possible, have the main villain rescue them before the actual, erm, event would occur. Also, remember, the males are likely to have reservations as well, which could provide an excellent means of stalling until they're rescued. It's not like he's going to kill his "prized racehorses" if they seem a little unwilling, when he can just lock them up in pairs for a few years and wait for them to get around to it (especially if he designs scenarios to increase their trust for one another).

EDIT: triple ninja'd.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-04, 08:10 PM
Or just, y'know...

Dominate or Programmed Amnesia.

Tengu
2008-02-04, 08:11 PM
Whoa whoa whoa...Easy Tengu. Just saying it was an idea.

And frankly, I have reservations too. Thats why I asked.

EDIT: And don't worry, I fully plan on asking the players first.

Don't worry, my response was not emotional - it was just a way of stressing that. Because it's never a good idea and I have heard many horror stories (mostly on these forums, nevertheless) of DMs who pulled such stuff and then wondered why did the players react so negatively.

ashmanonar
2008-02-04, 08:13 PM
Sounds like a REALLY good idea...

Done appropiately. Make sure there's some way for the PC's to get out of the situation, preferably more than one. There's an easy to see, but with not-too-good-results option, a harder one with a better result, etc., up to the point where there's a Guide Dangit like way of getting out of the mess that gives them really phat lewt.

This is a good point.

It might even be a hook for a quest, if you were to use an NPC as the potential "breeder", but have him turn out to be sympathetic to the female PC's and betray his "master" to help them.

Basically, give them ways out. Either by killing the NPC that attempts it (and yes, I think you should have this be an NPC; making one of the other PC's do it would be disastrous.) or perhaps by diplomatizing him; use that Charisma to win him over to the PC's side.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-04, 08:21 PM
I'm enormously with tengu and rutee, while it may be what would happen in a real gladiator-esque situation it's not something small or simple, it's one of the really big push buttons in a lot of people, often surprisingly so in unexpected people, and you really can't anticipate how some people will feel about it or expect them to even know beforehand sometimes. Depending on the group and the way it's handled it might, might work ok or it might be extremely detrimental.

You could just have the trainer "provide" willing female npcs of various races to give the same effect (and provoke the same emotional response from some of the smarter players that object to being used as livestock even politely) some might be playing the "horny and dumb" steriotype after all. This even makes sense from a fluff perspective given how clearly valuable the female members of the party are and how incapacitating pregnancy is.

My advice is don't do it. But if you realllllly want to don't involve anyone against their wishes under any circumstances.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-04, 08:30 PM
Meh. If there's no risk, why the heck did you play an Adventuring game instead of Barbie fashion designer or Backgammon? A DM's whole point is to introduce conflict and trouble to the adventurers lives and reward them if they overcome said difficulties. You just need to do it skillfully.

Rutee
2008-02-04, 08:39 PM
Meh. If there's no risk, why the heck did you play an Adventuring game instead of Barbie fashion designer or Backgammon? A DM's whole point is to introduce conflict and trouble to the adventurers lives and reward them if they overcome said difficulties. You just need to do it skillfully.

I respond to your question with an eloquent, well-worded response from Lumpley Games (http://www.lumpley.com/hardcore.html)
"I have no criticism cred to back this up. Just amatuer observations. So kick my butt if you gotta.

Suspense doesn't come from uncertain outcomes.

I have no doubt, not one shread of measly doubt, that Babe the pig is going to wow the sheepdog trial audience. Neither do you. But we're on the edge of our seats! What's up with that?

Suspense comes from putting off the inevitable.

What's up with that is, we know that Babe is going to win, but we don't know what it will cost.

Everybody with me still? If you're not, give it a try: watch a movie. Notice how the movie builds suspense: by putting complications between the protagonist and what we all know is coming. The protagonist has to buy victory, it's as straightforward as that. That's why the payoff at the end of the suspense is satisfying, after all, too: we're like ah, finally.

What about RPGs?

Yes, it can be suspenseful to not know whether your character will succeed or fail. I'm not going to dispute that. But what I absolutely do dispute is that that's the only or best way to get suspense in your gaming. In fact, and check this out, when GMs fudge die rolls in order to preserve or create suspense, it shows that suspense and uncertain outcomes are, in those circumstances, incompatible.

So here's a better way to get suspense in gaming: put off the inevitable.

Acknowledge up front that the PCs are going to win, and never sweat it. Then use the dice to escalate, escalate, escalate. We all know the PCs are going to win. What will it cost them?

My game Chalk Outlines was a stab at this, and Otherkind was a better stab, but where it's really coming home is in Dogs in the Vineyard and the Good Knights."

This is not a direct refutation of the idea of rape. Rather, this is in response to the idea that we seek Risk. I don't, at least. I seek narrative interesting-ness. That means no plotlines that I find genuinely objectionable. We're there to tell stories, not offend each other.

thorgrim29
2008-02-04, 08:46 PM
-Bredding them: good idea, logical, etc......
-Raping the female character: bad idea, unless it's done by a npc and as an easy way out

You could just do it with willing npc's, I imagine there are a couple of lycantrope whores out there, and the ringmaster seems like the kind of guy who knows them. A dm in a game I followed did somehing similar once, he (she?) had the PC's come from another universe, and to make them care, the king of the doomed place provided them with willing maids they all had sex with. Subtle, a bit manipulative, and effective.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-04, 08:50 PM
I respond with a classic Motorhead song, or a bit of it. Not directed at anyone, mind you. Just can't modify the lyrics of such a kickass song:

"I Don't share your greed,
The only card I need is the Ace of Spades, The Ace of Spades,

Pleasure is to play, No matter what you say."

'Cept for the first bit, that fits the point I'm trying to make. If I'm playing, I'm doing it because it's an interesting take on some old trope or story. It's the reason I absolutely hate "kick in the door" games, for example. Knowing that something like being forced to breed is coming at you and having to find a way to avoid it is not something you see in every gaming session, and it gives the game a nice sense of urgency pressure. It's like playing one of those Prisoner movies where the hero/ine is framed for something and has to escape before being executed, where only clever thinking will get you out of the jam and not being clever enough WILL end badly for you.

BTW, does anyone think Nirvana's song Breed is quite fitting for this plot hook?

Rutee
2008-02-04, 08:55 PM
If this were not rape or some other exceptionally offensive and emotionally traumatic penalty, I'd see this being logical. I'm sorry though, it's /rape/. If all the players are like "Yeah, cool, fine, Rape's a good penalty in story", then who am I to speak on your game? If they so much as /look/ uncomfortable though, it's badong. It's a game, it's not supposed to make you uncomfortable this way.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-04, 09:08 PM
But if it DOESN'T generate some kind of strong reaction, HOW are you supposed to bond with your character? If the worst you get is a slap on the wrist, something's wrong, and the players will act accordingly.

Tengu
2008-02-04, 09:14 PM
Screw it. I had a long paragraph here but I looked at it and deleted it. If a guy cannot see why raping a player character is not okay, even after all this explaining, I'm not going to persuade him.

Rutee
2008-02-04, 09:16 PM
But if it DOESN'T generate some kind of strong reaction, HOW are you supposed to bond with your character? If the worst you get is a slap on the wrist, something's wrong, and the players will act accordingly.

There are strong reactions in this world besides a profound feeling of disgust. With Tengu, unsurprisingly.

wadledo
2008-02-04, 09:25 PM
I vote we lock the idea in the closet and then burn the house down.

While an interesting idea in theory, the main problems are that:
1). It only affects the female characters/players, and from their point of view (as you don't have that view) it may be really creepy/freakish/horrible.
2). A bit of a cliche isn't it?

puppyavenger
2008-02-04, 09:26 PM
EDIT: And don't worry, I fully plan on asking the players first.

Having never done anything like this before I can only say MAKE SURE YOU DO THIS!!

Citizen Jenkins
2008-02-05, 12:14 AM
Okay, on the one hand I can see how if it was all discussed in advance and everyone was completely okay with it, especially the girls, and it was handled tastefully and didn't last too long it could be kind of interesting. On the other hand, stuff like this has a great chance to completely ruin the game, if not end it. Plus it can really alienate your friends, especially if they get offended. I just don't think that's a good risk to take. I'm sure you can think of some other cool thing to do with this scenario that is not so potentially game/friendship ending.

The fact that you're uncertain about it indicates to me that it's best if you just walk away, since you'll probably be more interested in this kind of storyline than they will be.

Ascension
2008-02-05, 12:50 AM
I'm going to join the chorus of "NO!"s.

It's just tasteless. I'd burn down the PC's home village before I'd have him/her/it raped. I might could understand if you had them forced to watch NPCs getting raped by other NPCs, with the understanding that come hell or high water they'd be released before their turn came up, but this? Just... no. ESPECIALLY not if those female characters have female players. You wouldn't have any way of knowing in advance whether or not your players might have had personal experience with this sort of crime. That's a sore spot you definitely don't want to mess with. No crime I can think of is more personal than rape, and few are more emotionally devastating. I wouldn't touch that sort of an issue in an RPG with a ten-foot pole, at least if it involves or could possibly involve PCs.

Talic
2008-02-05, 02:27 AM
You could just have the trainer "provide" willing female npcs of various races to give the same effect (and provoke the same emotional response from some of the smarter players that object to being used as livestock even politely) some might be playing the "horny and dumb" steriotype after all. This even makes sense from a fluff perspective given how clearly valuable the female members of the party are and how incapacitating pregnancy is.

I disagree, to some extent. It can be used as a springboard to increase player of awareness of the concept, "green skin does NOT equal evil". Introduce it carefully... Have the PC's witness the Villain following the practice with a pair of tigers... Eh, ok so far. Then, a highly victorious pair of hobgoblins... Then, another pair of werewolves. Then, have him TRY (note: not succeed, necessarily) with the PCs. If the NPC is absolutely clueless as to why there is a problem with it, and doesn't actually magically force the act, it shouldn't be bad.

Have him follow the same pattern that he uses with dumb animals. Retire them from fighting, provide them with a comfortable dwelling (that they can't leave), and let time pass. If they don't, then have the villain actually arrange for a discussion, and have him honestly believe that he's doing them a FAVOR. They've got a life of luxury, and can devote themselves entirely to personal gratification...

Basically, a villain unaware of the fact that a gilded cage is a cage nonetheless. Don't force the concept of rape (though that does essentially happen in the animal kingdom quite often). That turns players off of the game, BIG time. Focus on the other aspects of the villain's behaviour.

You don't need to advocate the villain's view as RIGHT. Perhaps throw a couple NPC gladiators with differing views, some angry, some resigned, some accepting, to show that you're playing parts, not upholding beliefs.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 02:44 AM
I agree with everyone else who said about this being a completely sick idea. Considering what effect pregnancy would have on the female characters would be (excluding how sick the rape element is) , what makes you think they'd agree with doing it? Also, how can you be so cerain that the party would let this guy capture them in the first place? If I'm honest, I'd probably fight to the death rather then risk getting captured by anyone due to what the possible consequences of getting captured would be for my character. Also, while I know the game has to have some risk in it, it is also supposed to be FUN as opposed to being ridiculously twisted.

OT, but when does rape happen in nature, Talic? Excluding what often happens when humans breed horses, I can't think of any exaples of animals raping each other.

Brom
2008-02-05, 03:11 AM
I don't know about you guys, but I'm really into the antihero role. My two characters are a Fighter and a Wizard, of 11th and 4th level respectively. The Fighter has ordered the Sorcerer ((another player)) to Fireball villagers, woman and children both, shot the Sorcerer for interfering with his plans to interrogate a party member who'd been lying to him, and has come on the cusp of torturing multiple NPC's before the Sorcerer or Bard interfered with Mind affecting magic or high Charisma skills.

He is Chaotic good in the most deluded of senses. He's also fought against Undead, killed countless blackguards and their zealous allies, delivered an entire nation to the safety of the wilderness, drawn arms against an evil, demon allied cult, and has saved the lives of all his party members.

My Wizard has found an artifact of extreme, dark, body & mind altering power than has spread death directly to many cities. He embraces the artifact and nearly worships the avatar of it, a horribly mutated dragon/snake thing, which ate a Mages Guild full of people. He also tortures & kills, enjoys doing so, and frequently makes death-threats to the parties CG rogue. He's LN. A direct quote from him, is, actually, ''put away your pathetic devices. Magic turns torture to an artform. His body will break before his mind, his mind before his spirit, and his spirit finally before I cast him to the void...but before all of this...he'll tell you everything, I swear it."

I would, as a player, react to someone who ordered someone to rape me by killing my rapist, even if he was forced into it. I would literally strangle him to death with my bare hands if I could. Barring mental domination, it wouldn't ever happen. And if it did happen, I would come back with EXTREME vengeance. Think, ''slowly mutiliating and sundering the limbs of his children in front of him while pinning him to the floor with a sword that I shoved through his foot'' extreme.

My final case: Only go so extreme as rape with a group that will respond happily and without guilt in a way equally extreme. There must be equal opposite forces.

Talic
2008-02-05, 03:14 AM
OT, but when does rape happen in nature, Talic? Excluding what often happens when humans breed horses, I can't think of any exaples of animals raping each other.

Watch the nature channels more. Male animal tries, female struggles, male fails. Repeat ad infinitum until female gives up (and the male will, barring serious physical injury). If you don't have cable, look at dogs in the street. Soon as you find one with a more dominant and aggressive mindset, you'll see it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 03:21 AM
I've never seen anything like that on any nature documentaries, and I've seen a lot of them (it always looked consensual to me, especially since a lot of specises are matriarchal anyway). Also, aren't those characters pretty much evil, Brom? I can't se how the Fighter you mentioned could be any better then Neutral.

Khanderas
2008-02-05, 03:24 AM
The OP obviously read "Dark Tapestries". While that webcomic is really good in general and that scene was done very well there (and by well I mean captured the reader until that arc was done and ended in sweet revenge. Any media that provokes emotions is a good one in my book). I can understand wanting to do that bit in a game, mighy storytelling there.

However, rape is not as easily glossed over like the killing of greenskins for purpose of racism and loot (and that "alignment" I hear the kids talk about). Even if they say they are ok with it, and mean it, it can still, unknown to the player, strike a chord they didn't know they had.

Impregnating a combattant is an investment in resouces for the gladiator manager (X nr of months out of fights / lighter work / more food / actually feeding and caring for the pups (lack of a better word), so it would be likly to not happen until they are sure the female has what they want.
So have an NPC female who is REALLY good at fighting that this may happen to, don't have to be physically forced, she could be lied to (bartered puppies for freedom etc) or just have a male cellmate and let it happen (possibly with the "aid" of magical or chemical coercion).


Still, this can go bad. Real bad. Even with prior concent from the players.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 03:30 AM
What happened in Dark Tapestries? I still think scrapping this idea altogether is the best idea considering everything. (Also, what would happen if a female character was pregnant after the party had been rescued if they were unable to escape on their own for some reason?).

skywalker
2008-02-05, 03:38 AM
Most breeding in the wild is consensual. In most species, breeding just happens. It's not really rape per se.

However, dolphins have been documented to gang rape:smalleek: females.

I think this is a weird idea, but also intriguing. I for one have never been so emotionally attached to a character that something affecting them would affect me(I cut my RPG teeth on Cthulhu)but I can see how it might be traumatizing to some(No, not Black Leaf!). But seriously, I think people are right, it's definitely something to tread lightly around, but I mean, you know your players better than any of us...

Also, who says it has to be the females getting raped? If the male doesn't consent either, then isn't he being raped too?

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 03:41 AM
That is a really good point (I was only really thinking it would be bad for females due to males not being able to get pregnant). I'd forgotten about dolphins doing that as well (thanks for reminding me).

Brom
2008-02-05, 03:42 AM
No! That is where I insist that you cease your idea. It's a bad thing in a NORMAL instance to have the players rescued. In an instance where they have been brutally mistreated and forced into things that they would never consent to...they need to be the ones to decide how fate goes at that point. Either they break out and leave or they break out and exact horrific vengeance in a way that makes all other NPC's of similar mindset afraid to pursue them if they have heard of it.

One idea I had is that she could be raped, and then have the incident wiped from her memory, in such a way that you don't even tell the player. Then she finds it out from someone else who was imprisoned with her -- the rapist?

Don't stick a PC with pregnancy though. That would throw SUCH a kink in the game. I would be agitated in our games if one of the female PC's ran off with some guy, even willingly, and got pregnant. If it was rape, I'd probably slaughter most of the inhabitants of the immediate vicinity, then send the female PC off to a trusted NPC with a wand of defend your virtues to get over it.

That's basically like putting a 9 month bestow curse on someone, as far as actually being an adventurer goes >_>

Khanderas
2008-02-05, 03:49 AM
What happened in Dark Tapestries? I still think scrapping this idea altogether is the best idea considering everything. (Also, what would happen if a female character was pregnant after the party had been rescued if they were unable to escape on their own for some reason?).
Basically magiced from a human to a anthropromorphic race (kaeitif), captured by a slaver, was planned to be food and "entertainment" for the feral, barely sentient male kaeitif's in the fighting ring but they found out she could fight.
So they chained her up to "have her bred by spring". The process of making her immortal did render her sterile though. Escape and revenge.

It IS a very good read, weather you are into reading webcomics about "furries" or not. Won't take a minute to goodgle up.. so I did.
http://www.blacktapestries.com/
Recently re-read the archives and not regretting a minute of it.


If an impregnated PC is left behind, the campain (and possibly the DM) will end very soon.

Shademan
2008-02-05, 03:53 AM
if yeh ask me it is ok to let the players UNDERSTAND what the gladiator-cheif-guy have in mind for them, build up tension and stuff, and then let them save themselves or be saved in the nick of time!
....
timing is crucial here! not to soon and certanly NOT TO LATE!!!

Talic
2008-02-05, 03:54 AM
I've never seen anything like that on any nature documentaries, and I've seen a lot of them (it always looked consensual to me, especially since a lot of specises are matriarchal anyway). Also, aren't those characters pretty much evil, Brom? I can't se how the Fighter you mentioned could be any better then Neutral.

Matriarchal in leadership, perhaps. Not In mating. The basic nature of the process of procreation means that one male can service many females, whereas the other way around is not possible. (exceptions do occur in non-mammals) This tends to result in societies with a higher number of females than male. However, typically, it is the male that is territorial, the male that does the same-species fighting, and the like (odd, that can be said about people too. Shows how much we've really "risen above" the common beasts).

And just because you've not seen it happen, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. The reason I that was posted above by me is the reason I have to put my dog in the back yard if anyone brings another dog over... Male or female, sadly. The act is more a dominance one, than a reproductive one.


I think this is a weird idea, but also intriguing. I for one have never been so emotionally attached to a character that something affecting them would affect me(I cut my RPG teeth on Cthulhu)but I can see how it might be traumatizing to some(No, not Black Leaf!). But seriously, I think people are right, it's definitely something to tread lightly around, but I mean, you know your players better than any of us...

It is not the act happening to the character that is traumatizing. It is the description of the act at all, ESPECIALLY for victims of said act. That's why it's never appropriate to bring up the subject casually, and great care needs to be taken with it.

It does not mean, however, that the issue cannot be addressed at all. It's being addressed here. Still, it's generally best left out of entertainment, as a victim of the act (or someone close to a victim) will never find such concepts entertaining.

BlackMage2549
2008-02-05, 03:57 AM
For the most part, I intend to have my BBEGs in it sympathetic...Except one.

*snip*

Needless to say, I am not looking for sympathy.

So, is this a good idea? Or is it just too mean an idea to spring on them?

Oh, and one more thing: I actually plan on having the main villain free them from the slammer, beacuse "Even I have standards".



I'm actually going to stand on the other side of the issue. This sounds like a great idea. It sounds like you're plotting your story well, and giving personality to your villains, which is wonderful. As a player, this storyline would keep me foaming at the mouth! This is a game, you don't have to be politically correct. If I ever tried something like this as DM, I know it would go over just fine - My players are mature, and understand the difference between "Game reality" and "Reality". As long as your players understand that the story they're being told is just that, a story, you shouldn't have any problems.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 04:01 AM
That is a good point, Talic (admittedly, I was assuming I would have seen something about it on a documentary by now if it did happen). I also agree with what you said about bringing rape up in a spposely fun game (ifI had a DM who suggested it, I'd probably find another group).

Khanderas
2008-02-05, 04:44 AM
I'm actually going to stand on the other side of the issue. This sounds like a great idea. It sounds like you're plotting your story well, and giving personality to your villains, which is wonderful. As a player, this storyline would keep me foaming at the mouth! This is a game, you don't have to be politically correct. If I ever tried something like this as DM, I know it would go over just fine - My players are mature, and understand the difference between "Game reality" and "Reality". As long as your players understand that the story they're being told is just that, a story, you shouldn't have any problems.
I agree that the idea is intresting, but I am not so sure if it is a GOOD idea.
Doubly so if there are any women in his group (my standpoint here is that it would be easier to disbelief the rape-done-to-you if you are male yourself).
Even if before you do it, you feel you can handle it, perhaps you cannot and the happy game of slay the princess / save the dragon turned into something with a sour aftertaste.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-05, 04:58 AM
Rape can be good for the story and character development, if done right. It's happened to 2 of my characters, and in one case influenced that character for the rest of his life. That said, discuss it with your players before hand, and if any of them are upset, don't do it. I've seen characters raped and castrated, with the player loving it because it made the situation riskier for them. I've seen a character pimp himself out to save the rest of us because he would do anything for the team, and the player enjoyed the session. I've also seen a date-rape almost make the player leave the campaign. It depends a lot on the player and the style of the group (do you deal with sex on a regular basis?), and really talking it over with them is good a good idea. It can really help the game, but it can also destroy it. Be careful.

BlackMage2549
2008-02-05, 04:59 AM
I agree that the idea is intresting, but I am not so sure if it is a GOOD idea.
Doubly so if there are any women in his group (my standpoint here is that it would be easier to disbelief the rape-done-to-you if you are male yourself).
Even if before you do it, you feel you can handle it, perhaps you cannot and the happy game of slay the princess / save the dragon turned into something with a sour aftertaste.

My players/DM's are always 18+ - We handle situations that make most people cringe. I guess we might be different than the norm. I understand the worry and concern, but it seemed pretty concrete that the OP wasn't worried about garnering sympathy for the players. Minus the sympathy, you should evaluate the idea based upon it's potential for a great story - Which is insane!

I truly hope this works out for you!

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 05:00 AM
Wouldn't castration be much easier to fix (excuse the pun) due to how a Regenerate would cure it (I would have thought that rape would be more likely to cause mental scarring)? Ironially, I'd only really see castration as a problem if you were going to give the character stat penalties which were relevant to testosterone deficiency (it would porbably cause penalties to all mental stats, and possibly some Cha loss). Admittedly, I fail to see how rape would add anything worthwhile to the story for reasons which I've already mentioned.

Also, Khanderas, I couldn't find the story arch you refered to in DT, but I wanted to check it due to how (for some reason) not knowing exactly what happened is worse then just knowing about it. (If it isn't suitable to post on here, plase could you PM it to me?).

Khanderas
2008-02-05, 05:33 AM
Also, Khanderas, I couldn't find the story arch you refered to in DT, but I wanted to check it due to how (for some reason) not knowing exactly what happened is worse then just knowing about it. (If it isn't suitable to post on here, plase could you PM it to me?).
Start at http://blacktapestries.comicgen.com/d/20030404.html
Shouldn't be long until you get there, the actual event is about a month later, but its meaningless without the backstory.

...
I really wish the artist would start it up again. Selfish of me considering the amount of work that has to go into a comic of this size, but still.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 07:02 AM
Thanks for telling me (I really don't like this sort of comic: it's too violent for my tastes and I don't lik the sound of any of the plots, so I'll just read this bit). Incidentally, were you getting my PMs?

Talic
2008-02-05, 07:08 AM
That is a good point, Talic (admittedly, I was assuming I would have seen something about it on a documentary by now if it did happen). I also agree with what you said about bringing rape up in a spposely fun game (ifI had a DM who suggested it, I'd probably find another group).


Admittedly, most of my knowledge is of Apex predators, but the main reason it's not as prevalent now, is the PC nature of the world. Look at the documentaries of the 1980's and such, and it's in there from time to time.

I know many herbivores have a much higher female to male ratio, though, and often, the territorial nature is reduced (not always).

Still, that's not enough for me to give up meat. I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to eat a carrot.

Khanderas
2008-02-05, 07:08 AM
Thanks for telling me (I really don't like this sort of comic: it's too violent for my tastes and I don't lik the sound of any of the plots, so I'll just read this bit). Incidentally, were you getting my PMs?
Yes, yes I did get them.
My PM box now has 4 unread PMs, all yours :D

I don't use my PM box much so I didnt notice.

Neon Knight
2008-02-05, 07:11 AM
So, is this a good idea? Or is it just too mean an idea to spring on them?


Short Answer: No.

Longer Answer: No. Nein. Nyet. Non.

Actual Explanation Answer: It simply isn't appropriate. And it isn't a good idea. It's too potentially offensive; too much of a squick. If they react badly, they won't react badly to the villain, they will react badly to you.

And even if they don't object, it has all the subtly of a sledgehammer to the knee. There are a lot of ways to ensure this guy receives no sympathy from the players, and these ways are both a bit more subtle and less offensive.

For example:

After the PCs win their unwinnable fight, Mr. Pit Boss gets an idea. Like defying the odds, do they?

He locks the PCs in a dank, rat infested chamber below the surface for two days without food and only a little water. He then has them hunt a wereboar in a elaborate area designed to mimic a jungle. If they kill the wereboar, they get to eat him.

See? That guy has a sick and twisted sense of humor. And cannibalism is a lot less offensive than rape. (Does it count as cannibalism if you hit him in hybrid of boar form?)

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 07:13 AM
Okay (I just thought I'd ask in case there was something wrong with your PM box). i just read the relevant part of Black Tapestry thanks (I really think doing something like that is a D&D game would be a really bad idea due to how there's no way any players who shouldn't be locked up could find that to be an enjoyable addition to the game). I think Kasrkin's idea would be better in regards to getting heel heat for the antagonist, and I agree with their points on the issue.

Khanderas
2008-02-05, 07:15 AM
Admittedly, most of my knowledge is of Apex predators, but the main reason it's not as prevalent now, is the PC nature of the world. Look at the documentaries of the 1980's and such, and it's in there from time to time.

I know many herbivores have a much higher female to male ratio, though, and often, the territorial nature is reduced (not always).

Still, that's not enough for me to give up meat. I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to eat a carrot.
Really ? I cannot think of a single species that births more females then males (or males then females) and that always confused me alittle.
Sure there are alot of lionesses around compared to male lions, but that is for territorial fights (incidently that is why male lions have manes, to protect the throat from being ripped out by another lion). Always 50/50 in higher animals (ants & bees don't count for example).

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 07:20 AM
African Wild Dogs have a ratio of 1 female to 2 males for some reason, but I don't know the ratios for other specises.

Khanderas
2008-02-05, 07:46 AM
African Wild Dogs have a ratio of 1 female to 2 males for some reason, but I don't know the ratios for other specises.That is wierd. The other way around I could more easily accept.
But you mean this ratio is the born ratio and not the population ratio ?

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 07:54 AM
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_wild_dog , there are typically 2 males to every female in a normal pack. It could be that a lot of males live on their own or form all-male groups.

kamikasei
2008-02-05, 08:20 AM
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_wild_dog , there are typically 2 males to every female in a normal pack. It could be that a lot of males live on their own or form all-male groups.

That's generally the way. If you reproduce in the conventional mammalian manner (one male and one female) as opposed to something like, say, bees, you will always tend back to a 50%/50% sex ratio in births. It has to do with a male child being genetically more valuable in a population where they're scarce, and vice-versa. Of course, specific populations/species may have complications on top of that as to the actual makeup of the population.

Khanderas
2008-02-05, 08:22 AM
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_wild_dog , there are typically 2 males to every female in a normal pack. It could be that a lot of males live on their own or form all-male groups.
Intresting read. Lot of things are flipped in that species, like more males then females in the packs and that the females leave the pack to start new ones. Contrary to pretty much every other pack mammal I heard of. The notion that this is setup that way so the wild dogs dont multiply too much and exhaust their habitat suggests that more males then females are actually born, though it never says that (judging from a quick scan of the page atleast).

But I think we derailed the thread severely enough by now :)


Edit:

That's generally the way. If you reproduce in the conventional mammalian manner (one male and one female) as opposed to something like, say, bees, you will always tend back to a 50%/50% sex ratio in births. It has to do with a male child being genetically more valuable in a population where they're scarce, and vice-versa. Of course, specific populations/species may have complications on top of that as to the actual makeup of the population.
I know what you mean, but I cannot really put it in words that let others understand what I am talking about. The forums lacks gesticulations and pictures. The alternative is writing a 5000 word essay about it

Runolfr
2008-02-05, 08:28 AM
So, is this a good idea? Or is it just too mean an idea to spring on them?

Tricky.

I would say that it's within reason for the villain in question to explain what he intends, but your other villain should be ready to intervene before it actually occurs. Under no circumstances should you let this play out. Just having the creep suggest it should get his evilness across well enough.

BlackMage2549
2008-02-05, 09:45 AM
Are your players mature enough to handle it?

If they are, and the idea appeals to you, go for it.

If they aren't, you already know why you shouldn't do it.


Remember, the game's about having fun, sure, but if you're bored DMing it because your players are a pack of sissy ninnies, you might be better doing something else.

ShinyRocks
2008-02-05, 09:50 AM
I agree that the mere threat of this would be enough to get across his villainy. Taking it to the actual act would be too unpleasant, and result in too many complications. Do you really want your PCs to go to a wisewoman for abortion herbs?

Something like this should suffice to set the scene. And then they can escape or get rescued. Or choose to have sex with each other.

'You fight well. Better than I expected. And with that in mind, I have a proposition. By its nature, the arena has dwindling numbers and good combatants are hard to find. Good combatants mean good fights, which mean more money for me.

I want you to...reproduce. I have certain specialist clients who would pay exceptionally well to watch feral children fight each other. We all have our peccadilloes. Of course, during your gestation, the females among you would be cared for most elegantly.

I am not an unreasonable man, nor am I stupid one. I would prefer for you to breed together - more pleasant for all concerned, and I have no doubt your offspring would prove particularly powerful. However, my patience is not infinite. If you choose not to cooperate, I am not above coercion. Some of my more brutal fighters have not had female company for some time. And as for the males, well, let us just say I have means of extracting what I require from you.

I'll leave you to consider my offer. I'll come back..mm..tomorrow to hear your thoughts. But understand this: I mean for you all to sire children. And I always get what I want.'

Khanderas
2008-02-05, 10:08 AM
'You fight well. Better than I expected. And with that in mind, I have a propistion. By its nature, the arena has dwindling numbers and good combatants are hard to find. Good combatants mean good fights, which mean more money for me.

I want you to...reproduce. I have certain specialist clients who would pay exceptionally well to watch feral children fight each other. We all have our peccadilloes. Of course, during your gestation, the females among you would be cared for most elegantly.

I am not an unreasonable man, nor am I stupid one. I would prefer for you to breed together - more pleasant for all concerned, and I have no doubt your offspring would prove particularly powerful. However, my patience is not infinite. If you choose not to cooperate, I am not above coercion. Some of my more brutal fighters have not had female company for some time. And as for the males, well, let us just say I have means of extracting what I require from you.

I'll leave you to consider my offer. I'll come back..mm..tomorrow to hear your thoughts. But understand this: I mean for you all to sire children. And I always get what I want.'
Now that is good evil. He wants something, knows how to get it and cares not one bit who gets hurt or about the wishes of others. Not just Evil, but plausable Evil.
<applause>

And again, I like OP's the idea personally, but I'll reiterate my standpoint it can seriously backfire to heck.

Tengu
2008-02-05, 10:57 AM
Are your players mature enough to handle it?

If they are, and the idea appeals to you, go for it.

If they aren't, you already know why you shouldn't do it.


Remember, the game's about having fun, sure, but if you're bored DMing it because your players are a pack of sissy ninnies, you might be better doing something else.

It's not really a question of maturity, but the zone of comfort - all the players I have are 18+, and they'd feel extremely uncomfortable about such a thing.

By the way, a question to Leliel which, I believe, wasn't asked yet - do you expect the players to somehow run away before the actual thing takes place? Because such scenario is more plausible than actually raping them, though still extremely uncomfortable for many people.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-05, 11:04 AM
They'd mentioned something near the start of the thread about another antagonist rescuing them before it happened. I'm assuming they would have the chance to escape on their own while getting more items and money if they succeed.

Quote from first message: "Oh, and one more thing: I actually plan on having the main villain free them from the slammer, beacuse "Even I have standards"."

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-05, 11:10 AM
I have to agree with Tengu. If the situation has no PC based escape, it sucks. PERIOD. I don't play graphical adventures to lose, for example. I do it to win because of my ingenuity and occasional bouts of delerium. Same thing here.

Hmm...I found a point of how saying NO! Outright is a bad idea. The rape is a penalty, right? Much like Death because of bad luck or stupidity. It's the same thing here, only death is more or less accepted but rape isn't. Just give your players options to escape without BBEG help and it'll be fine. Oh, and drop lots of hints or outright state what's gonna happen if they don't do something.

Leliel
2008-02-05, 03:11 PM
I agree that the mere threat of this would be enough to get across his villainy. Taking it to the actual act would be too unpleasant, and result in too many complications. Do you really want your PCs to go to a wisewoman for abortion herbs?

Something like this should suffice to set the scene. And then they can escape or get rescued. Or choose to have sex with each other.

'You fight well. Better than I expected. And with that in mind, I have a proposition. By its nature, the arena has dwindling numbers and good combatants are hard to find. Good combatants mean good fights, which mean more money for me.

I want you to...reproduce. I have certain specialist clients who would pay exceptionally well to watch feral children fight each other. We all have our peccadilloes. Of course, during your gestation, the females among you would be cared for most elegantly.

I am not an unreasonable man, nor am I stupid one. I would prefer for you to breed together - more pleasant for all concerned, and I have no doubt your offspring would prove particularly powerful. However, my patience is not infinite. If you choose not to cooperate, I am not above coercion. Some of my more brutal fighters have not had female company for some time. And as for the males, well, let us just say I have means of extracting what I require from you.

I'll leave you to consider my offer. I'll come back..mm..tomorrow to hear your thoughts. But understand this: I mean for you all to sire children. And I always get what I want.'

That...is...awesome.

Seriously, I could not think of a better villain speech.

And believe me, I am just as apprehensive about this idea as much as anyone else.

Leliel
2008-02-05, 03:17 PM
By the way, a question to Leliel which, I believe, wasn't asked yet - do you expect the players to somehow run away before the actual thing takes place? Because such scenario is more plausible than actually raping them, though still extremely uncomfortable for many people.

Well, no, not intially...but seeing the responses on this thread, I'm considering that exact scenario.

The_Werebear
2008-02-05, 04:04 PM
I have to agree with the majority here and say "NO" to outright rape. However, he views these lycanthropes mostly as animals, correct? The way most animal training gets done through my experience is carrot and stick.

After giving the above speech (From Shinyrocks, that was absolutely awesome) have him start giving them little extras after battles if they agree to cooperate. Offers like more food, better conditions, better gear should be tempting considering their situation. If they fail to pick up on those, leave the benefits in place, but start putting in punishments. The longer they refuse, the less food they get, the more they are roughed up outside of fights, and the more lopsided the fights themselves become.

At some point, he finally cracks and does what he intends to- Coerce them. However, give your players a chance to break free completely from there. Consider this- These are the best fighters. He still views them as animals, where the biggest and nastiest often survive. If this owner throws one of the females in there with some random (if burly) male, allow her to kick the everlasting **** out of him, and then escape. Like, as in, 7-10th level versus two burly second levels.

If you play it so that they aren't in any real danger of having it happen, and hopefully allow them to kill that mofo on the way out, this could work.

sikyon
2008-02-05, 05:02 PM
You could try magical impregnation, or putting them under a sleep spell and do it to them while they were asleep. Just a thought.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-02-05, 06:16 PM
I see no reason why the idea couldn't work. Depends on your group. I mean it does have excellent role-play potential, trying to figure a way out (and there should be a way out they can do themselves even if it isn't completely obvious), the anxiety if those attempts fail, then 'BAM!' rescue. Give no hint of rescue though otherwise all of it is ruined....and definitely tell them there is the possibility of being raped before hand. It'll make them that more determined to escape (And would certainly give them the courage to try plans they otherwise wouldn't because they would have been too risky), they will despise the villain if they are logically thwarted in their escape attempts (If your gonna pull 'It doesn't work, I'm the DM' kind of stuff to ensure the other evil guy saves them, then definitely don't do it.), more importantly the relief they'll feel upon being rescued gives multitudes of plot/adventure/role-playing involving the one that rescued them.

And of course there should be a chance to strike back, I've noticed on the whole that PC's love chances for vengeance even if they weren't actually wronged (merely told how they were going to be). I also agree that it could blow up in your face if it's done wrong. If you go through plan it out very carefully. Very carefully. Though in the end when the PCs escape they might flee the area in general to escape the chance of being 'put out to pasture', but in my opinion theres too little actual fear or disgust for villians, just 'oh well my character would be afraid so I'll move away.' 'You actually scared or disgusted?' 'Of course not.'.

*Take any advice I give with a grain of salt, my actual group is very light-hearted and I'm a naturally disturbed individual (Any time you can honestly say 'Well half my players kidnapped one of my other player's son born at the beginning of time and brainwashed him to kill his father, a father who never even knew he had a child since this all happened because he looked appealing to a demonad and he refuses to remember what happened after being grabbed.')

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-05, 06:29 PM
You could try magical impregnation, or putting them under a sleep spell and do it to them while they were asleep. Just a thought.

Neither of those solve the problem.

No free consent = rape.

Tengu
2008-02-05, 09:16 PM
Neither of those solve the problem.

No free consent = rape.

Not to mention that it still makes the females pregnant, another thing I am sure they will not want.

Ascension
2008-02-05, 09:19 PM
To play the devil's advocate for the moment, there is such a thing as infertility, and in addition the timing on pregnancy is tricksy. Rape doesn't always result in pregnancy by any stretch of the imagination. Just because the BBEG is trying to get them pregnant doesn't mean he'll succeed, even if he succeeds in raping them.

...I still wouldn't do it under any circumstances, though.

ShinyRocks
2008-02-06, 06:21 AM
Yay me!

The only other thing I would ask is how many sessions you expect them to be in the arena. I don't really RP (haven't done tabletop for about 15 years!) but I think that personally I would get a bit antsy if I spent too many sessions with 'You are still in the dungeon' and the occasional arena fight.

I think the basic concept of being forced to fight in the arena, with the threat of enforced breeding, is a great one. You'll give the PCs a real hate-figure villain and they'll probably want to come back for revenge/ to free the other prisoners. I would suggest giving them shinies as arena prizes if they do fight repeatedly. Confiscated at the end of battle of course, but they can grab them as they escape.

Awesome idea, but don't keep it going for too long, and just have the threat rather than the act. Also, if he doesn't get them to breed before they escape, and they escape without killing him, you can have him all crazy and determined and recurring villain and spring a surprise on your PCs later when he ambushes them. After all, 'I always get what I want'.

Talic
2008-02-06, 06:31 AM
Not to mention that it still makes the females pregnant, another thing I am sure they will not want.

There are ways around that. The PC wouldn't know for weeks, potentially, and all it takes is one severe wound in combat, and well, a half dozen arrows to center mass is likely more effective than a trip down the stairs.

Tengu
2008-02-06, 06:47 AM
There are ways around that. The PC wouldn't know for weeks, potentially, and all it takes is one severe wound in combat, and well, a half dozen arrows to center mass is likely more effective than a trip down the stairs.

That's... quite revolting, I must say. Almost as bad as including actual rape in the game.

Rutee
2008-02-06, 06:56 AM
That's... quite revolting, I must say. Almost as bad as including actual rape in the game.

Well, that was how the pregnancy was getting added in anyway, effectively, right?

Tengu
2008-02-06, 07:01 AM
Well, that was how the pregnancy was getting added in anyway, effectively, right?

Well, the same could happen to a willingly pregnant character.

Which reminds me, long ago one of the female members of my old WoW raidgroup roleplayed great loss after losing her pregnancy because she died in a raid - she got ressed of course, but the child didn't survive that. My IC reaction was to scold her why did she go to a dangerous place when she was pregnant. My OOC reaction was a mixture of disgust and "oh, shut up drama queen" sighs.

Leliel
2008-02-06, 06:05 PM
Well, the same could happen to a willingly pregnant character.

Which reminds me, long ago one of the female members of my old WoW raidgroup roleplayed great loss after losing her pregnancy because she died in a raid - she got ressed of course, but the child didn't survive that. My IC reaction was to scold her why did she go to a dangerous place when she was pregnant. My OOC reaction was a mixture of disgust and "oh, shut up drama queen" sighs.

Ouch...I can just imagine a player like that.

Copacetic
2008-02-06, 06:50 PM
Don't have them be raped. Threaten them with it sure, have it hang ove ther heads and force them to sweat bullets, but don't do it. Have them bust out n the nick of time. Not only will it reiforce the guy saving them's goodness,(kinda) It will convince them thourghly that the ringmaster is EVIL with all capitols.

Jayngfet
2008-02-06, 07:09 PM
There are ways around that. The PC wouldn't know for weeks, potentially, and all it takes is one severe wound in combat, and well, a half dozen arrows to center mass is likely more effective than a trip down the stairs.

there problem solved, though I'm not the squemish or squickish type, and if you play rape better than mookie did(not very difficult) it could work, you did say you got their consent pre-session, so its more like acting raped than being raped.

on another note, on the off chance(this means barring adventuring in risky places, a time skip or a whole lot of natural 20's) that the birth happens, what do you plan to do about it.

another thing, do you have lycanthropy cures or repressents in your camapane?