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Lolth
2008-02-04, 08:59 PM
OK, I am one-hundred per cent sure that the following ruling is common sense correct.

I would, however, love some page or SRD references to back it up, this player can be argumentative in the extreme, but will bow before the RAW:

Player posits that a Duergar Paladin 3 (ergo ECL4) is eligible for the Craft Arms and Armor feat because they can cast spells (Invisibility, etc., the Duergar racials) as if they were CL*2 for those specific spells.

I posit that this is rank twittery and that they actually have NO Caster Levels, as yet, for purposes of the Feat, as Paladin 3 has a CL of -, and that a racial ability to cast one or two spells doesn't make an acceptable substitute.


Plz?

Rutee
2008-02-04, 09:01 PM
I dunno what to say. Utter common sense, you're correct.

Lolth
2008-02-04, 09:03 PM
Player has in the past shown a remarkable Resistance to Common Sense +10 and, while I can just say "because I said no!" I'd rather have the page references to back it up so I don't have to absorb suggestions that this is some rare house rule I am imposing.

Chronos
2008-02-04, 09:07 PM
As a paladin, he is not yet a spellcaster. As a duergar, he is also not a spellcaster, since he can't cast any spells. He can use spell-like abilities, but a spell-like ability is not a spell.

RTGoodman
2008-02-04, 09:11 PM
The prerequisite for Craft Magic Arms & Armor is "Caster Level 5th." A Duegar Paladin 3 has no caster level, so he doesn't qualify.

The closest thing is from his spell-like ability entry:


Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day - enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries.

The Duergar has no caster level, he just uses his SLA as a wizard of twice his class level. Which begs the question - what class level? That may be a typp (though it's in the PHB and SRD), but I think it's supposed to be character level or HD (unless they want you to just pick one class :smallconfused: ).

Either way, he doesn't have a caster level, so it doesn't work.

Townopolis
2008-02-04, 09:15 PM
I was going to ask, racial spells are actually SLAs, right? Meaning they're not spells. SLAs are nice because you don't have to supply the spell components (so, for example, a gnomish paladin wouldn't have to worry about ASF on his SLAs), but they don't make you a spellcaster.

When it says "as a wizard of twice your class level," it's giving you an effective caster level for SLAs, not a caster level.

However, I doubt you'll be able to find a place where you are backed up without a doubt. This is D&D, and technically, a Druid 1/Ranger 19 has the animal companion of a Druid 20 :smallconfused:

FlyMolo
2008-02-04, 09:17 PM
Sadly, according to CArc, the player is right. page 72, under Caster level. As a duergar, if he casts 2nd level SLA, he gets to count as having caster level 2. If the caster level isn't fixed, default to character level. So 5 warlock levels=CL5. Nixies are CL4, apparently. remind me to open up my MM.

That's if the duergar racials are a flat CL, but from the OP, it's not totally clear what he's arguing. Craft magic arms and armor is CL3, isn't it? If the Duergar Racials are CL 2, that doesn't work...

In a pinch, Rule Zero. Or, my personal favorite, have pit fiend fly in and curse him never to able to take Magic Arms and Armor until he takes enough paladin levels to throw it off, i.e. have a CL of 3. Then the pit fiend leaves.

Lolth
2008-02-04, 09:20 PM
Actually, it's CL5 for Craft Arms and Armor.

Duergar get Enlarge Person and Invisibility at a CL of twice their class level. (Bad wording) so I believe his argument is that since he can invisible himself as a CL6 (Paladin 3x2) he has CL6 for the purpose of the Feat.

Citizen Joe
2008-02-04, 09:24 PM
Let him take it... then reach over and take his character sheet. Tell him his character needs to go on hiatus for a while while he learns the talent and practices making armor... Meanwhile, everyone else has this adventure thing to do...

Danzaver
2008-02-04, 09:35 PM
Sadly, according to CArc, the player is right. page 72, under Caster level. As a duergar, if he casts 2nd level SLA, he gets to count as having caster level 2.

I disagree. He 'counts as' caster level 2, because he needs to have a caster level to 'count as' for the purpose of variable numeric effects. It's still a spell-like ability, and not a spell.

I wish I could recall where I had read that, but I'm certain it does say in black and white, Spell-like abilities are not spells. They are natural abilities that resemble spells.

Tell him to wait a few levels till he gets his paladin spells. If he whines about the wasted feat, let him save it for however many levels. If he whines again, then say "because I said so".

Never be afraid to say because I said so. The rules are much less important than the story, and even then, the rules are only whichever way the DM chooses to interpret or modify them. It's the only thing we have that stops dnd from turning into an mmorpg, where you have "optimal builds" and an exploited glitch can give a player a decided advantage.

If it doesn't seem right, rewrite. :smallwink:

FlyMolo
2008-02-04, 09:50 PM
I disagree. He 'counts as' caster level 2, because he needs to have a caster level to 'count as' for the purpose of variable numeric effects. It's still a spell-like ability, and not a spell.

I wish I could recall where I had read that, but I'm certain it does say in black and white, Spell-like abilities are not spells. They are natural abilities that resemble spells.

Tell him to wait a few levels till he gets his paladin spells. If he whines about the wasted feat, let him save it for however many levels. If he whines again, then say "because I said so".

Never be afraid to say because I said so. The rules are much less important than the story, and even then, the rules are only whichever way the DM chooses to interpret or modify them. It's the only thing we have that stops dnd from turning into an mmorpg, where you have "optimal builds" and an exploited glitch can give a player a decided advantage.

If it doesn't seem right, rewrite. :smallwink:

Hey disagree all you want. Take it up with the Magic Users Whose Habitual Dominion Is The Coastal Lands, and more specifically, Complete Arcane. They list a nixie as a specific example. Nixies have a SLA at CL 4, and therefore qualify for stuff that needs CL 4. However, it doesn't stack with wizard CL, etc etc. It's one of those rules which lets the warlocks not suck.

SLA aren't spells, nobody is saying that they are. Spells aren't the only things tied to CL, though.

I think technically, the player is right here. But consider it borken, like the Arcane nova method of spamming a spell every round for infinity without expending spell slots. or Pun-Pun. Interestingly, this means a Duergar character can qualify for item creation and prestige classes earlier than other characters can. Assuming the DM permits it, which is right where we are.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-04, 10:06 PM
The feat does not require the ability to actually cast spells. It just requires a caster level, which the duergar has by virtue of its spell-like abilities.

But it's not a particularly worthwhile feat unless you have a bit more spellcasting or even spell-like ability versatility than a 3rd level paladin can offer. Combine with the fact that he's only one equivalent level short of the "normal" time a character would require the feat, I can't see how that can be considered broken at all.


Interestingly, this means a Duergar character can qualify for item creation and prestige classes earlier than other characters can.
Only those few PrCs that have a "Caster Level" requirement rather than the more prevalent "Ability to cast <x> level spells." In any case, such classes are rarely useful to a Paladin. Though it does make things distressingly easier for Duergar belonging to classes that would benefit from such PrCs.

But any problems in the system are really the fault of having a race that multiplies its racial caster level by character level, and solutions should be addressed to that item.

Benejeseret
2008-02-04, 10:07 PM
Allow him to take it and use it...but add in (or homebrew) that you can only craft items with properties of magic you are familiar with - being invisibility and enlarge person in the case of a duergar.

I think this makes sense to the whole feat, you cannot make a flaming weapon unless you can cast, and understand, some kind of flame spell. Like-wise you cannot make a +1 shield unless you know some kind of shielding or armour spell. Similar, magic weapon or some sort of spell that improves attack and damage is needed to make a mace +1.

This is as far as I know not how the feat is actually written, and I know you are looking for RAW back-up....so ignore all this if you want since I just wanted to put the idea out there. I just like it because you can fluff that a shortsword crafted to a shortsword +1 by a wizard with magic weapon spell is somehow different in its aura and appearance than a club +1 enhanced by a druid who knows nature's warrior spell.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-04, 10:14 PM
I think this makes sense to the whole feat, you cannot make a flaming weapon unless you can cast, and understand, some kind of flame spell. Like-wise you cannot make a +1 shield unless you know some kind of shielding or armour spell. Similar, magic weapon or some sort of spell that improves attack and damage is needed to make a mace +1.
Crafting particular magic items require one to meet certain prerequisites, so that is pretty much a given already.

However, since all arms and armor require a minimum +1 enhancement before they can recieve other effects, the prerequisite for such bonuses is simply a minimum caster level (bonus/3, I believe). Rightly so, otherwise casters that don't use whatever spell was the semi-arbitrary prerequisite would be denied a feat that otherwise makes plenty of sense.

KoDT69
2008-02-05, 09:26 AM
Just let him take it and find out the hard way. The item creation rules will bite him in the hind-quarter! His whopping CL4 nets him the ability to make only the most minor of items in any case, and only a basic +1 weapon or armor. Unless he can get the CL up to 6 or higher, that will be the extent of his massive feat investment... +1 stuff. What's worse, discounted +1 stuff or Leap Attack? Either way, he would be sorry he took it after practical application in the game. He'll actually learn a lesson if you let him learn it that way. :smallyuk:

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-05, 09:58 AM
His whopping CL4 nets him the ability to make only the most minor of items in any case, and only a basic +1 weapon or armor. Unless he can get the CL up to 6 or higher, that will be the extent of his massive feat investment...
Uh, his caster level is 6. It's his ECL that's 4.

Caster Level = 2 * Character Level.
-> Paladin 3 = Character Level 3
-> Caster Level = 2 * 3 = 6.

Equivalent Character Level = Character Level + Level Adjustment
-> 3 + 1 = 4.

Doesn't even meet the prerequisite for the feat with a caster level of 4.

Epic_Wizard
2008-02-05, 10:05 AM
Sorry this was a rushed post and I didn't finish it properly. Done now though :smallcool:
From the paladin entry (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/paladin.html#_top) of the SRD:


...

Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level.

From the Rules of the Game: Making Magic Items (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a) article:


When creating items, the creator's caster level must be at least as high as the item's caster level. Your caster level is your level in the class that gives you access to a particular spell needed for the item (see the section on prerequisites). In some cases, your caster level will be less than your class level; if so, the class description notes it. For example, a paladin's caster level is one-half her paladin level (a paladin of 3rd level or lower has no caster level at all).

If you are multiclassed, you may have different caster levels for the spells you have by virtue of your various classes. For example, a 4th-level paladin/5th-level sorcerer has a caster level of 2 for paladin spells and a caster level of 5 for sorcerer spells. If you have taken a prestige class, your levels in that class may stack with levels in another class to determine your caster level. Otherwise, your levels in your various spellcasting classes usually don't stack for purposes of determining your caster level.

If you draw on different classes to get access to different spells you need for an item, you must use the lowest of the various applicable caster levels.

This states that:

1. His class levels are what determine his caster level for feat prerequisites (in red)

2. He can only craft Arms and Armor that use those spells since his other spell casting abilities don't meet the feat prerequisites yet. (in blue)

I now have further evidence from the D&D Frequenty Asked Questions version 3.5 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) PDF:


Can a character use a psi-like ability to qualify for a
prestige class that requires: a) the ability to manifest a
particular psionic power, b) the ability to manifest psionic
powers of a particular level, or c) a manifester level?
A) Yes, B) no, and C) yes. Expanded Psionics Handbook
doesn’t clearly describe how psi-like abilities interact with
game prerequisites. However, the discussion of spell-like
abilities on page 72 of Complete Arcane provides a useful
precedent:
“[S]pell-like abilities that generate the relevant effect meet
the requirements for specific spell knowledge.”
Thus, a psi-like ability allows you to qualify for a prestige
class that requires the ability to manifest that power.
“[R]equirements for feats and prestige classes based on
specific levels of spells cast . . . cannot be met by spell-like
abilities.”
Simply having the ability to manifest a 5th-level psi-like
power doesn’t meet the requirement of being able to manifest
5th-level psionic powers.
“For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster
level, creatures that use spell-like abilities . . . instead of spells
use…their fixed caster level . . . to determine qualification.”
A psionic mind flayer has a manifester level of 9th, so it
would meet any prerequisite that required manifester level 9th.

The last point is the most important and the key word there is FIXED (bolded and made a horrible shade of purple in the text for your convenience) which means that the Duergar DOES meet the requirements for a feat that requires a caster level of 3rd or lower.

Any questions, comments, or objections?