Why can't Haley see or hear Roy?

[Xandro]

I think it's obvious that Roy is right in the last panel of the new comic. But why?

The flumph-ghost was visible for the other flumphs and Roy proved to be at the same plane of existence.

Any ideas?

[Quorothorn]

I think it's obvious that Roy is right in the last panel of the new comic. But why?

The flumph-ghost was visible for the other flumphs and Roy proved to be at the same plane of existence.

Any ideas?

The flumph-ghost was a mage, perhaps? :smallbiggrin:

[TheWarBlade]

Maybe Hayley can see Roy, but she is slowly going mad since shes fighting an evil overlord?

[Ave]

in my world:

ghosts are invisible and immaterial. They can pick up small particles of matter with time, forming a body. Roy's ghost is just too new :)

[Courier]

I'm betting she has to be touching or holding the sword in some way. It allows for some complications and a lot of plot options, and isn't so complicated that it will get in the way of the plot (like needing to be asleep might, or needing to be a Greenhilt definitely would.)

[Tempest Fennac]

Could it be that the Greenhilt sword would only let Greenhilt ghosts get in touch with other Greenhilts? That doesn't explain the Flump ghost, but it could explain why Haley can't see Roy.

[Oberon]

I'm gonna have togo with the "have to be holding the sword/have it inventory to see him" theory. This doesn't explain the flumph issue, but the living flumphs never saw Roy now did they? just the flumph ghost. So there.

[factotum]

The flumphs aren't human, for a start, so maybe have senses other than the normal five. Also, the Ghost of Lame Monsters Past was clearly a malevolent being who was probably able to manifest to mortals.

Fact is, Roy hasn't been doing this "ghost stuff" for above five minutes, maybe he has to figure out something to let him manifest? Similar to the way Patrick Swayze had to learn from another ghost in "Ghost" how to manifest to mortals.

[Castamir]

The same happened for Eugene in the past (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html). Apparently, Flumphs have some way of seeing ghosts.

For Haley, perhaps she needs to be asleep?

[bluish_wolf]

Maybe Hayley can see Roy, but she is slowly going mad since shes fighting an evil overlord?

Going mad? Did you forget that part where she talks to manifestations of her personality? She's already nuts.

[Niknokitueu]

I go with factotum on this: Roy just needs to learn how to manifest.

Or would that be a revealing of a 'manifest destiny'? (heh heh)

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Chronos]

I'm thinking it's because Haley isn't a Greenhilt. When Eugene died and found out that that oath really was binding, he initially tried to contact Julia, but couldn't, because he could only manifest to his next of kin. If Eugene couldn't even manifest to his second (living) child, then it stands to reason that Roy wouldn't be able to manifest to someone to whom he's not related at all. Presumably, for him to manifest at all, Julia would have to get ahold of the sword somehow.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I'm thinking it's because Haley isn't a Greenhilt. When Eugene died and found out that that oath really was binding, he initially tried to contact Julia, but couldn't, because he could only manifest to his next of kin. If Eugene couldn't even manifest to his second (living) child, then it stands to reason that Roy wouldn't be able to manifest to someone to whom he's not related at all. Presumably, for him to manifest at all, Julia would have to get ahold of the sword somehow.

It's actually slightly worse than that: Eugene can only manifest to the next of kin if the sword is available. When the sword was broken by :Xykon, Eugene could not manifest himeslf to Roy, regardless of Roy being the next of kin.

(Now that must have irritated Eugene - being dependent on a fighter's weapon!)

[Souju]

the flumphs are comedic devices, they don't adhere to the laws of logic
being unable to see him unless you're a greenhilt would kind of defeat the purpose of having him manifest in the first place. I mean, Eugene would just LOVE to tell his son he can't...or Roy's Archon would have told him he couldn't, probably.
I'd also like to point out that when Roy's dad bugged him, he wasn't asleep, in fact he complained about not getting sleep because of him.

[BisectedBrioche]

Permit me to solve the mystery;

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm


Manifestation (Su)
Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon (see Ghostly Equipment, below). A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

When a spellcasting ghost is not manifested and is on the Ethereal Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the Material Plane, but they work normally against ethereal targets. When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets.

A ghost has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.

The flumpth ghost was manifested, Roy is not.

[Demented]

Roy probably can't manifest, as he's not 'restless' enough to be a ghost. After all, he has at least a remote chance of someone picking up the sword. That, and he died fair and square to Xykon. He may think he has unfinished business, but frankly, what Xykon does in the mortal realm thereafter is really none of Roy's business.

That poor flumph, on the other hand...

[Roderick_BR]

The same happened for Eugene in the past (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html). Apparently, Flumphs have some way of seeing ghosts.

For Haley, perhaps she needs to be asleep?
No, that flumph was not looking at Eugene, he was looking at Roy. He was asking for a cleric because he needed healing, after being hit in the head numerous times.

And yes, I agree that the ghost flumph was just manifesting to these lumphs, since it had some sort of reason, while Roy, as strong his reason is, is not enough yet, and he can't manifest without using the sword as a shortcut, and Haley needs to be carrying it, as Roy thinks it'll work.

[Weiser_Cain]

I'm thinking it's because Haley isn't a Greenhilt. When Eugene died and found out that that oath really was binding, he initially tried to contact Julia, but couldn't, because he could only manifest to his next of kin. If Eugene couldn't even manifest to his second (living) child, then it stands to reason that Roy wouldn't be able to manifest to someone to whom he's not related at all. Presumably, for him to manifest at all, Julia would have to get ahold of the sword somehow.

This is good.
I wonder if Julia will become an Eldritch Knight to avoid further kidnapings?

[Aristeidis]

Interesting ideas. I think that "the rules" would not allow Roy to manifest unless he had a good reason. Point two is that he cannot directly intervene with the sequence of events. I mean Eugene returned from the dead to bring a cryptic riddle to Roy (remember that lame chimera?!). I supposed he couldn't have told him "A chimera is on the way, Xykon is in the throneroom that way with 50 goblins and undead." Roy intended to tell Haley where Elan and the others were. That has to break a few universal laws. Perhaps confining to just urging Haley some way yet not clearly should get him heard.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Roy's Ghost has aphasia, perhaps?

Yeah, I got nothing new.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I'm thinking Roy is new to the ghost thing like from "Ghost" (Patrick Swayze/Demi Moore) or "The Sixth Sense" (Bruce Willis/Haley Joel Osment).

Both ghosts had a hard time interacting with the material world, and today's whole scene especially reminded me of Bruce Willis' character trying to talk to his wife.

[Green Bean]

This is good.
I wonder if Julia will become an Eldritch Knight to avoid further kidnapings?

Or, you know, she could just carry it around. No need to go that far.

[chibibar]

Remember that animals tend to have extra senses that can "sense" ghost. Look at the different horror flicks or movies that has ghost in them :) (that is my guess)

I'm thinking that Roy has to concentrate harder to "manifest" something like "Ghost" the movie. Or it could just be simple as touching the sword.

[Johnny Blade]

Turning on plot logic and letting my thoughts wander far, far away from the official D&D rules, it appears that Roy can only be seen by creatures that share a special link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) with him. Kinship EDIT: The sword would be an example.
A Mark of Justice would be another one.

(Edited for proof. Holy crap, I didn't even think that theory would make sense at first.:smallbiggrin: )

[SoD]

I knew that there'd be a thread about this...I beleive it's because she isn't a member of the greenhilt family. I remember something about Eugene complaining about all the rules when he tried to appear to [Roys sister].

Damn. I should know her name...how embarassing.

[Xantos]

I personally think it's tied to the sword. In the comic where Eugene had the same thing happen, it was when the sword was broken.

"I tried to appear to you after you blew up the castle, but with the sword broken I was out of luck. You couldn't see or hear me."

That line makes me think that you need to have the unbroken sword 'in inventory' at the very least, for it to function. I guess it's like a focus that helps the spirit manifest to the wielder, or something. Or perhaps it just lets you straight up see Greenhilt ancestors.

[dish]

.. it appears that Roy can only be seen by creatures that share a special link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) with him. Kinship EDIT: The sword would be an example. A Mark of Justice would be another one.


I approve of this idea. Roy needs to find someone he shares a 'metaphysical link' with. Hmm...I wonder how far he'll have to look for someone like that? :smallwink:

[Faramir]

My original thought was also the sword or something in direct contact with it like his body.

This leads to a potentially humorous situation:


The only being we've seen develop the habit of touching Roy's body is Mr. Scruffy who perches on the skull.

At first I thought Mr. Scruffy would see Roy and they'd figure it out that way but it might be even better if Roy could possess Mr. Scruffy.

That way the leader of the resistance would carrying around and taking orders from Mr. Scruffy. Just like old times...

[Max_Sinister]

I'm wondering too. What little detail did he miss? Probably Eugene could have told, but didn't, the old jerk.

[Ulrichomega]

Find out next time on...

ORDER OF THE STICK!

[chibibar]

I'm wondering too. What little detail did he miss? Probably Eugene could have told, but didn't, the old jerk.

I think the sword is the key. It would seriously complicate things if it has to be a "greenhilt" legacy to touch the sword to be "contacted" :)

[Chronos]

being unable to see him unless you're a greenhilt would kind of defeat the purpose of having him manifest in the first place. I mean, Eugene would just LOVE to tell his son he can't...or Roy's Archon would have told him he couldn't, probably.Of course he'd love to. But he'd love even more to tell him after he'd tried and failed. "What, I'm sorry, did the big dumb fighter not realize that he could only manifest to family members? Oh, too bad."

[Mc. Lovin']

I think it's obvious that Roy is right in the last panel of the new comic. But why?

The flumph-ghost was visible for the other flumphs and Roy proved to be at the same plane of existence.

Any ideas?

My first impression was that Hayley had gone mad, and quite often see's Roy and talks to him. But then she would have listened to him

[Mee]

I know exactly what happened,

she failed a spot check, she's been with Belkar for to long.:smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

Of course he'd love to. But he'd love even more to tell him after he'd tried and failed. "What, I'm sorry, did the big dumb fighter not realize that he could only manifest to family members? Oh, too bad."
Eugene is not the sort for long term ragging on Roy. He wants to get his digs in right away. He lets Roy try to scan, but that's only for a moment or so. Longer delays just miss chances to make more digs. So if he was sure the idea would fail, he would jump on him right away for being so dumb.

Eugene may not think the idea will work, but he is not convinced it won't work.

[BisectedBrioche]

Find out next time on...

ORDER OF THE STICK!

Same stick-time, same stick-channel!

[Ikialev]

...Maybe she just doesn't believe in ghosts? >>

[Simons Mith]

A Mark of Justice would be another one.

Now, that's clever. Bet you an e-cookie you're right.

[Hopeless]

I'm gonna have togo with the "have to be holding the sword/have it inventory to see him" theory. This doesn't explain the flumph issue, but the living flumphs never saw Roy now did they? just the flumph ghost. So there.

Is Haley carrying Celia's amulet?
Maybe she needs to be holding roy's sword to see Roy after all wasn't that how Eugene was able to manifest to Roy?

[Hopeless]

It's actually slightly worse than that: Eugene can only manifest to the next of kin if the sword is available. When the sword was broken by :Xykon, Eugene could not manifest himeslf to Roy, regardless of Roy being the next of kin.

(Now that must have irritated Eugene - being dependent on a fighter's weapon!)

Actually it was a family heirloom courtesy of Eugene's dad so that would matters worse as he was dependent on the father he obviously loathed and I bet he didn't want Roy realising it was the family sword that was his way of manifesting until it was broken and he got Shojo's help, I wonder if that binding circle he was in also forced him to speak the truth...

[NorseItalian]

Yeah, It's got to be the fact that she's not carrying the sword. The "see or hear" thing was the same for eugene when the sword was broken.

[Johnny Blade]

There are two problems I have with the theory that it's all about the sword:
1. Why should the Greenhilt sword allow Roy to form a special link with Haley. She neither belongs to the family, nor does the sword have any other special significance for her. It may be something very dear to Roy, which she probably knows, but after all, it's just a sword to her. (I think this may have been brought up before, but I don't know for sure or where it would have been posted, so sorry if I'm unwittingly stealing an argument here.)
2. Why should Haley (or whoever else) pick up the sword? (Of course, one could say someone would have a use for it, but the whole OotS cast isn't particularly clever when it comes to this kind of question.)

Also, I don't think Roy will go back without actually manifesting/talking to someone.
Not only because I think Eugene would have told him it wouldn't work (and that being a fighter dulls your wits). Even though I agree with David Argall's evaluation of his character here, it is a debatable point.
The main reason why, in my eyes, Roy's trip down to earth can't be totally in vain is, quite simply, the plot. I mean, were he to return to his cloud right now, we would have to write the last three strips (and one to come) off as nothing but filler.


Now, that's clever. Bet you an e-cookie you're right.
E-cookie? I knew posting here would be good for something.:smallsmile:

[jdude8220]

I'm gonna have to go with the theory that it's all connected to the sword. When Eugene says that the sword was connected to their family line, I take that to mean that ghosts of their family can only appear to someone touching the sword. Whenever Eugene appeared to Roy, he was either in a summoning circle or Roy had the intact sword at hand. I mean, even when he was sleeping, presumably a fighter like Roy would sleep really close to his sword, if not just with it in his hand.

[Swordlol]

I'm betting she has to be touching or holding the sword in some way. It allows for some complications and a lot of plot options, and isn't so complicated that it will get in the way of the plot (like needing to be asleep might, or needing to be a Greenhilt definitely would.)


Perhaps since Roy had the sword for eons (obviously exaggerating) it was much easier for his father to manifest himself then a relative new comer, whether this new comer is Haley having Roy's sword, or Roy's spirit just being on living plane, has remained yet to be seen.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Bringing back the subject, who is the most unexpected person to see Roy? Belkar. Using the Greenhilt sword as a meta-physical link it might still only work for a Greenhilt. So can we think of what other meta-physical links there are? Possibly the MoJ. It would be unexpected and keep in line with OoTS humor; "Belkar what is Roy saying?" "Uummmmm....He's saying for you to rub my feet. And make me a sandwich.

[Courier]

Yeah, the more I've thought about it the more I think Belkar will be the one able to see Roy. It'll be really funny but I'm still hoping for some good interaction between Roy and the other characters.

[Swordlol]

Bringing back the subject, who is the most unexpected person to see Roy? Belkar. Using the Greenhilt sword as a meta-physical link it might still only work for a Greenhilt. So can we think of what other meta-physical links there are? Possibly the MoJ. It would be unexpected and keep in line with OoTS humor; "Belkar what is Roy saying?" "Uummmmm....He's saying for you to rub my feet. And make me a sandwich.

Genius. 100% win. Belkar gaining the upper hand after all this time, not only being able to lie to get what he wants from others, he will be able to play Roy like a puppet. This makes it somewhat harder for him to get ressurected since Belkar probably knows better than let a piss off Roy Spirit get his physical body back to kick his ass. Although Roy might be at such a low level it might not matter.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Genius. 100% win. Belkar gaining the upper hand after all this time, not only being able to lie to get what he wants from others, he will be able to play Roy like a puppet. This makes it somewhat harder for him to get ressurected.

Thank you my ideas usually origanal and not what everyone else keeps repeating ( no offense, all).

[Max_Sinister]

I think the sword is the key. It would seriously complicate things if it has to be a "greenhilt" legacy to touch the sword to be "contacted" :)

If that was true, which I don't know, wait for Julia entering the comic.

[mago]

Genius. 100% win. Belkar gaining the upper hand after all this time, not only being able to lie to get what he wants from others, he will be able to play Roy like a puppet. This makes it somewhat harder for him to get ressurected since Belkar probably knows better than let a piss off Roy Spirit get his physical body back to kick his ass. Although Roy might be at such a low level it might not matter.

MoJ. Command word.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Hehe that would be great; "Belkar I hate you" *ZAP* "What the hell Roy?!"

[chibibar]

How is MoJ link with the spiritual world? the MoJ is trigger via the physical distant of a physical body. (hence no spiritual connection)

I like the idea that the sword allows the wielder/holder to communicate with a greenhilt spirit IF it happens to be nearby. So if anyone was holding on to the world (or wield it) then any Greenhilt can communicate with the wielder.

This makes more sense. It is like an item that has a special link with the owner. This sword just allow access to more than one spirit :)

[Raging_Pacifist]

How is MoJ link with the spiritual world? the MoJ is trigger via the physical distant of a physical body. (hence no spiritual connection)

I like the idea that the sword allows the wielder/holder to communicate with a greenhilt spirit IF it happens to be nearby. So if anyone was holding on to the world (or wield it) then any Greenhilt can communicate with the wielder.

This makes more sense. It is like an item that has a special link with the owner. This sword just allow access to more than one spirit :)

The MoJ is a magical inscription that is physically drawn on both parties allowing for a magical coonection that is extended physicaly, and the sword has no other connection than the fact that the Greenhilts owned it for generations (Yes I know what I am saying) plus it was re-forged by a mundane smith and it probably lost the special connection quality.

[Mauve Shirt]

As I said in another thread, how would he manifest to Julia? He can't tell Haley they need to somehow get Julia to give her the sword, and he can't manifest to her since the school has wards. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html) Plus, what good would it do? Sending Julia into Azure city would be pretty pointless.

[Raging_Pacifist]

As I said in another thread, how would he manifest to Julia? He can't tell Haley they need to somehow get Julia to give her the sword, and he can't manifest to her since the school has wards. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html) Plus, what good would it do? Sending Julia into Azure city would be pretty pointless.

I agree, the only thing she could do if she even got the message would be to convince her superiors to get some high level cleric to Rez him.