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View Full Version : A Spade not a shovel...



Jimbob
2008-02-05, 11:24 AM
I was reading another thread and this quote came up "A Spade not a shovel..." and it just so happen in our last session on Sunday one of our characters is a grave digger (fighter) and he uses a spade. He has taken weapon focus spade and weapon spec spade, just to give you a bit of back ground.
We were going through some old lost mines and happen to come across some rust monsters feeding on iron ore. You can guess what happens next his spade gets rusted and in a moment of dispare he shouted to the DM "whats in the cave????" the DM looked through his notes and it said picks and shovels so he picked it up and started to use it until the DM said "thats a shovel not a spade its a improvised weapon -4 to attack."

So the player got in a huff for the rest of the sesion cos he could not hit very well and none of his "spade" feats applied.

My question, simple as it may be, do you think this was the right thing to do??

Theli
2008-02-05, 11:28 AM
Perhaps the player should have chosen Weapon Proficiency: Digging Implement? :p

I'd suggest that the DM was probably a little too strict in this case and should have probably allowed the player to retcon his proficiency to be a little more broad. I mean...he chose to excel in an improvised weapon...let's not punish him too much...

Soniku
2008-02-05, 11:30 AM
Aren't shovels and spades the same thing?

Telonius
2008-02-05, 11:36 AM
HGTV says no (http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gl_equipment_hand_tools/article/0,,HGTV_3582_1370673,00.html).

Jimbob
2008-02-05, 11:37 AM
This is what I thought but the DM (a builder by trade) said other-wise and at the end of the day the DM is always right, esp as for an hour he went on about the differences of spades and shovels.

Person_Man
2008-02-05, 11:40 AM
They're both improvised weapons. So by RAW, the player would have to take some sort of homebrew feat to wield either without the -4 penalty.

Having said that, as a DM I would have given it to him.

Here is a picture of two spades from Wikipedia:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Spade.jpg/180px-Spade.jpg

Obviously, the difference between spades and shovels are largely semantic and/or etymological.

UPDATE: OK, after reading Telonius' link, I now have to admit that a shovel has a small lift/lip for you to press your foot against, and a spade does not. And functionally, a shovel is for lifting earth, whereas a spade is for breaking it apart. But if you were to use them as weapons, I'm guessing they'd be used in the same way. And seriously - why screw a PC who has an interesting idea just because you have some form of specialized knowledge in the area?

So if a player is willing to invest in god awful feats like Weapon Focus and Spec in a spade, he should get the benefits for it when in a mine with whatever tools he can pick up there. Heck, I'd probably give it to him with picks, just because the feats are that bad.

Jimbob
2008-02-05, 11:45 AM
He took a feat at first level, a home brew one at that but it just let him use it. But then its no different to any other fighter taking those feats in another weapon you would still lose them if you lost or was not using your focused weapon.

Tengu
2008-02-05, 11:56 AM
"This is a knife, not a dagger - you are not proficient with it, so you take -4 to your attack bonus!"

Makes as much sense. Or as little.

averagejoe
2008-02-05, 12:04 PM
I hate it when the DM has his one area of specialized knowledge IRL that he uses in the game to make everyone miserable whenever it comes up.

Anyways, the weapons are broad catagories of weapon types anyways. The game doesn't recognise the difference between, say, a claymore and a Zweihander or what have you. Heck, it doesn't even differentiate between a katana and a bastard sword. Differentiating between a shovel and a spade is stupid. It's especially stupid when it's just because the DM works with shovels frequently.

TheElfLord
2008-02-05, 12:07 PM
^^^^^^^^
Seconded


Yes a shovel and spade are different. But they fall into the same general weapon group in DnD. Like a tomahawk and hatchet, or knife and dagger, longsword and broadsword. The weapons are really groups of similar weapons.

Telonius
2008-02-05, 12:22 PM
I would impose a -4 penalty to a spade if it were being used as a shovel, or a -4 to a shovel if it were being used as a spade, in a "Farm" check. I'd treat them both as equivalent when being used as a weapon. :smalltongue:

Artanis
2008-02-05, 12:28 PM
I have to throw my vote in with the "the DM was being a jackass" crowd.

In the real world, he's technically right: a spade is not the same thing as a shovel. But DnD isn't the real world, and I'd say that they ARE the same thing when it comes to using one as a weapon. There's a hell of a lot more than two types of crossbows that are all quite a bit different to use, but only two are listed in the weapons table. There's a hell of a lot more than one type of shortsword that are all used differently, but there's only one entry on the weapons table. And don't even get me started on clubs. If a big, unbalanced, heavy-ass knobby chunk of oak is treated the exact same as a corked baseball bat, then you'd better believe that a spade is the same as a shovel, even if you DO treat them as actual weapons, and not just different variations on "improvised weapon".

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-05, 12:37 PM
Look's like spade's about as different from a shovel as a katana is from a masterwork bastard sword. :smalltongue:

raygungothic
2008-02-05, 01:16 PM
I don't know.

A spade has a stiff, heavy blade intended to cut its way into the earth. It's not fast enough to be an effective weapon, but it could certainly hurt someone pretty badly. It might well work in a slashing mode. This is why my ancestors up north probably called it a "bloody shovel", to distinguish it from the ordinary shovel.

A shovel is a light scooping blade that can easily be dented by abuse. It could hurt someone, but it's more of a bludgeoning weapon, and a slapstick one at that. This is why it's always known as a plain "shovel" and never described as bloody...

I've done quite a bit of archaeological fieldwork, and briefly worked in building restoration, and in either role being handed a shovel when I asked for a spade did not put me in the merriest of moods. So I can see why this gets the DM irritated, though it shouldn't interrupt the session THAT much.

From a D&D perspective I'd be inclined to arbitrarily rule that the proficiency was the same, but specializations weren't. And from a DM's perspective I'd give him a spade after a few scenes, because depriving someone of their spade for an entire session is just mean.

Severus
2008-02-05, 01:25 PM
Your DM is pedantic.

Devils_Advocate
2008-02-05, 03:37 PM
I concur with the general consensus.

(1) A given weapon type covers several similar, related designs

because

(2) It's not a matter of whether they're exactly the same, it's a matter of whether they're wielded the same way when used as a weapon.

At the least, a shovel is similar enough to a weapon he already knows how to use that the guy shouldn't have to suffer the improvised weapon penalty, even if he can't use his special feats.

It can be very, very annoying when a DM is picky with his rulings like this. He'll say that he's trying to maintain realism, but the truth is that D&D's rules sacrifice realism all over the place for the sake of simplicity, balance, story, fun, etc. You need to introduce a crapload of variant rules to get things to function anywhere close to like they do in the real world, to the point where you really might as well be using a different system to start with. The best way to keep your suspension of disbelief intact is really just to not think about things too much.

And most of the time that works just fine. The problem is that sometimes you run into an area that you know too much about -- or is too interesting to you -- for you to not think about it. At which point a particular instance of unrealism becomes noticeable and thus bothersome to you.

So when a DM does something like this, he's not actually "correcting" something that's especially unrealistic, he's just averting something that's especially offensive to his personal sense of verisimilitude. And, I'm sorry, that's just not sufficient justification for doing something that annoys everyone at the table but you. For the love of Pelor, just learn to deal with the fact that the system doesn't and basically can't perfectly simulate reality, and sometimes that's going to bug you.

Enguhl
2008-02-05, 03:40 PM
"This is a knife, not a dagger - you are not proficient with it, so you take -4 to your attack bonus!"

Makes as much sense. Or as little.

Stab with a dagger, slash with knife..

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-05, 03:44 PM
A lot of people seems to be doing much to little garden work :smalltongue:

Try digging a hole with a spade and cutting (small) tree roots with a shovel and you will see the difference. :smallwink:


But for the purpose of D&D this seems overly restrictive, especially considering that neither are weapons as Person Man pointed out.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-05, 03:49 PM
Stab with a dagger, slash with knife..
Interestingly enough, a D&D dagger can be used to either stab or slash...

Fax Celestis
2008-02-05, 03:53 PM
Stab with a dagger, slash with knife..

O rly? PHB's gear list says otherwise: a dagger as listed is a Piercing/Slashing weapon. That you can throw! Throwing knives and stabbing knives are very different. There's even the difference between a stiletto, a switchblade, and a dirk, if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty. The general point is, if the PHB is lumping together such potentially different as a a bowie knife and a kidney knife, there's no real reason for the DM to need to differentiate between a spade and a shovel.

Theli
2008-02-05, 03:55 PM
Stab with a dagger, slash with knife..

You can also slash with the dagger...

It is type: Piercing OR Slashing.

Edit: Ahhhh, super mega ultra ninja!

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-05, 03:55 PM
Interestingly enough, a D&D dagger can be used to either stab or slash...

But if you are using the Thief's Back stab class ability you obviously have to use it as a stabbing weapon...

Voyager_I
2008-02-05, 04:04 PM
I'll second pretty much everybody who has derided your DM. That was a completely unnecessary nitpick that needlessly hindered an already suboptimal character and certainly didn't enhance anyone's experience. After he had the gall to hit you with a Rust Monster, no less.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-05, 04:04 PM
No such class as a Thief, or such an ability as Back Stab, in Third Edition.

In fact, this sort of thing is the whole reason some of the class and equipment terminology was changed for 3e: they didn't want things to sound more restrictive or specific than they are.

Anyway, the DM in question is a pedant. There's less difference between a shovel and a spade in combat than there is between a Scottish hand-and-a-half sword (bastard sword) and a Japanese curved, one-bladed katana (also a bastard sword, usually masterwork).

Actually, between this and the rust monster showing up in the first place, he probably just had some reason to pick on that player, or at least disarm him.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-05, 04:58 PM
In fact, this sort of thing is the whole reason some of the class and equipment terminology was changed for 3e: they didn't want things to sound more restrictive or specific than they are.
Meh. Sneak Attack still causes trouble. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html) :smallbiggrin:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-05, 05:04 PM
2nd edition Back Stab was actually an attack from behind. (Of course, a stabbing weapon was not required.)

Fax Celestis
2008-02-05, 05:06 PM
2nd edition Back Stab was actually an attack from behind. (Of course, a stabbing weapon was not required.)

It also required nonexistent facing rules to actually function.

Artanis
2008-02-05, 05:08 PM
The general point is, if the PHB is lumping together such potentially different as a a bowie knife and a kidney knife, there's no real reason for the DM to need to differentiate between a spade and a shovel.
Although, it would be kinda funny watching somebody trying to attach a Rondel or Kris to the end of a rifle, instead of a Ka-Bar :smallbiggrin:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-05, 05:13 PM
It also required nonexistent facing rules to actually function.

Well a Back Stab could result in the opponent facing death, so in that sense the rules worked quite well...

zaei
2008-02-05, 05:27 PM
stuff
...and a Japanese curved, one-bladed katana...
more stuff
As opposed to a two-bladed katana? I'll bet those grant Leadership, and your cohort is a katana fanboy =]

Maybe create a new double weapon: the spade-shovel. It's an Exotic Improvised Weapon (you take -4 to hit, even if proficient) doing 1d6B/1d6S, and can be used to trip using the shovel end.

Prometheus
2008-02-05, 09:01 PM
Technically they are probably different, but the guy's feats are homebrewed in the first place so its seems like the DM should give it to him. Afterall, I'd have to imagine a grave digger would use both. Personally, I'd take at -2 or -4 penalty, but let him keep the feats which would both reflect the difference and his expertise.

Tengu
2008-02-05, 09:20 PM
As opposed to a two-bladed katana? I'll bet those grant Leadership, and your cohort is a katana fanboy =]


Two-bladed in what way? Kenshin style or Advent Children style? Either of those will attract a slightly different type of fanboy.

zaei
2008-02-05, 10:54 PM
Two-bladed in what way? Kenshin style or Advent Children style? Either of those will attract a slightly different type of fanboy.

Good question. Why not both ways?

I've now got a mental picture. Imagine this:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/pgte_gallery/95054.jpg

...except it's got a double double-bladed katana, and it's slicing through a tank. zomgz.

*derails thread*

Ellisthion
2008-02-06, 09:07 AM
*sends in thread rescue team*

Whirling dervish vs tank?

*wait, no, the rescue team got hit by the thread coming off the rails*


PHB's gear list says otherwise: a dagger as listed is a Piercing/Slashing weapon. That you can throw!

Hit someone with the hilt. Piercing/Slashing/Bludgeoning weapon that you can throw!

F.L.
2008-02-06, 09:26 AM
My question is this: what's a set of intact shovels and other mining tools doing not being rusted in a cave full of rust monsters?

Telonius
2008-02-06, 10:05 AM
Maybe the rust monster needed them for gardening?

Person_Man
2008-02-06, 10:06 AM
My question is this: what's a set of intact shovels and other mining tools doing not being rusted in a cave full of rust monsters?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Maybe they were made of nerf, since that seemed to be the intent of the DM.

On a similar note, I never use Sunder or Rust Anything monsters unless its a one shot campaign. It drives PCs crazy.

LibraryOgre
2008-02-07, 12:06 AM
Since the DM was insisting on being a dork, I'd have pointed out that, as a gravedigger, the fighter certainly wouldn't have specialized in a spade (which isn't designed for lifting and moving large amounts of earth), and that the GM is now bringing up this difference that he clearly knew about, and is therefore being a dork (in the original sense of the word), and should let the fighter change his feats to reflect the fact that the words are going to be interpreted more strictly than a layman might.

I play a post-apocalyptic game with a lot of flying with two NASA aerospace engineers, one of whom is a former CIA analyst. I know all about vocabulary issues leading to trouble.