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Rowan Intheback
2008-02-05, 11:29 AM
Hey dudes I'm going to be DMing for the first time ever pretty soon. I've gotten to know the system, I've played in a bunch of games, and I sat an watched some (the last one more out of boredom than commitment to understanding how to run a game.)

Any how I have everything written out except for the encounters. I really want to challenge my players. I've noticed when I'm playing that I have the most fun when we almost die when the game feels like a real struggle where players use all of their resources, spells they wouldn't normally consider casting, items they never thought they'd use. I want my players to have the feeling that they really scraped the bottom of the barrel and came out on top. As much as I want to challenge them I don't want to take it too far and kill them. I played a few sessions with a guy who seemed like he was intentionally trying to kill his party. It wasn’t fun and everyone thought he was an ass. I've heard the CR system in the DMG is somewhat unreliable I don't want my players to get bored with underpowered combat or make them feel like the game is too heavily focused on RP, after all their characters can do cool **** for a reason.

Any advice would rock. Thanks guys.

Delta Nu Delta
2008-02-05, 11:38 AM
I'm a brand new DM myself, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

I think you've got a great goal in mind. I think those combats are great, but what makes them so great is that they are the exception rather than the rule, or at least sprinkled in with plenty other encounters of varying difficulty. Those nailbiters are the cream of the crop, but they need a crop to make it there. So mix up your encounters - make some easy, some medium, and then some really tough.

As I'm new to the DMG/ECL/CR fiasco, I can't give you any hard advice there. Determining the Encounter Level seems so dern complicated that I just eyeball it. You probably have a good idea of what your party will be capable of handling simply with your experience.

Finally, I think the key component to a nail biting encounter is your PCs have to know you are willing to kill them if it comes to that. Not that you're specifically trying to (well, no more than normal), or that you're hoping to kill them, but they need to know that if they play stupid and the dice come up poorly, they're toast. I find that much easier said than done...I've discovered I'm a bit of a softy when it comes to offing PCs.

Hope that was helpful! I'm interested to see other more experienced DMs advice on this matter as well.

Oh, and the SRD20 has an Encounter Level Calculator if you want a rough estimate of the Challenge Rating.

Jimbob
2008-02-05, 11:43 AM
The only thing that really came to mind is that, if you are planning to have nail-biting encounters were they use up most of there "stuff" make sure they are rewarded for this by giving "stuff" back. This is because if you want to party to fight more then one encounter a day they will need to have "stuff" in reserve.
So as the fight is going on and if every one has used up all there healing potions make sure you reward them with finding treasure with more healing potions as an example or other-wise you will have them resting after every fight and this takes the edge off the feeling your going for.

Just my 2c

Rowan Intheback
2008-02-05, 11:50 AM
Thanks alot that was really helpful! I almost forgot how exhausting that crap can be. I'll be sure to limit those fights to once per encounter.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-05, 11:55 AM
if you think an encounter might become too hard/easy due to lucky/unlucky rolls have some reinforcements handy to show up.
make sure these are foreshadowed so they won't think these guys have just appeared to save their asses!
i once had a group ready to save my pc's asses and they weren't needed in the end so all they saw were 5 guys fully armed ready for war charge into the clearing just after they offed the last bugbear......

thankfully they didn't attack them.

Ethdred
2008-02-05, 12:03 PM
Good advice here already - and thumbs up for wanting to take the effort on making good encounters. I'd add that you should think carefully about the party's capabilities. A party with lots of melee specialists will be challenged by something different from a party with lightly armoured ranged guys. And the abilities/choices of the spellcasters make a big difference. Try to mix up encounters that play to their strengths with those that will be more frustrating.

I've also found that lots of lesser combatants makes for a better combat than one big thing that either wins the initiative and creams the party or dies in two rounds. But be careful not to swarm them too much. One good way to handle it is to have waves of attackers - that way, you can leave a wave out if the party is struggling (especially from bad dice rolls, which can kill the best prepared and played party).

Remember your role as DM is not to try to kill the party - it's to make them think you're trying to kill them

Mephibosheth
2008-02-05, 12:10 PM
One of my favorite things to do when designing encounters is to look through the rules set for interesting ways to increase the challenge presented by an encounter without increasing the CR of the opponent. If you make the specific circumstances of the encounter more unique and interesting, you can encourage resourcefulness, reward players for investing in some less-frequently used abilities, and increase the challenge without as much of a risk of overpowering the PC's

For example, during one session my players arrived at a small river town only to find a group of bandits in the process of sacking and looting the town. However, instead of merely rolling into town and fighting the group, I based the encounter on my memories of similar video game combats, where the larger encounter was broken up into small sub-combats. So, the PC's encountered a few bandits on the outskirts of the town, hunkered down behind upturned wagons and wielding ranged weapons. In this circumstance, they had to figure out how to flank the archers and eliminate their cover. Next, the PC's moved into the town square and fought a mini boss encounter that was more straight forward. Then, the party had to cross the river to liberate the town's keep from the bandits. Crossing the river required either swimming or jumping on a series of stepping stones (making the PC's make some skill checks, and rewarding characters for investing in Jump and Swim). The crossing was guarded by some more bandit archers, this time crouching behind tower shields. My players loved this encounter, because the river, the stepping stones, and the tower shields worked both ways. The PC's were able to bull rush bandits into the river, and knocking away tower shields deprived the archers of most of their defenses. It presented a more interesting tactical puzzle to the players than simply a flat field.

So, that's my suggestion. Make the PC's make skill checks, use uneven surfaces/bridges/platforms/rooftops, give the opponents some interesting tactical advantage, or any other trick you can think of to make the combats unique. These unique combats will be the ones players remember, even if it's nothing more than a few mook NPC's. Of course, be sure to give the PC's extra XP if you use some interesting tactical element that makes the combat more difficult. And (as others have said) don't forget to let the PC's mow over some bad guys now and then :smallamused:.

My 2 cp.

Mephibosheth

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-05, 02:04 PM
My advice:

Know your party's abilities. Design the encounter with them in mind. Your encounters should challenge and engage every member of the party- if there's undead or constructs, give the rogue something to do (dissarming a trap, deciphering a riddle) for example.

Nail-biting encounters that aproach total party kills are very exciting, but avoid spells and attacks that disable or kill party members in one go. If a PC goes down, it should be because of sustained HP damage, abillity damage, or repeatedly failed skill checks (swim, climb, jump, balance etc) over multiple rounds, not one unlucky saving throw or a single, mega attack from a monster.

Your enemies should use tactics that increase their challenge (terrain, formations etc.) and test the PCs inginuity.

Ramos
2008-02-05, 02:30 PM
Classic very-hard-but-not-lethal encounters:

The haunted crossroads (or crypt or graveyard)

Undead are rising from the ground continiously. Each undead individually is weak but all of them together are hard to beat. The PCs don't really know how many undead are there so you can keep throwing dead stuff at them until they are about to die so you either force them to flee or you stop throwing dead stuff at them, the PCs seemingly barely defeating the undead. Good horror encounter, low actual death chance-lesser undead do not have any instant-kill attacks.

Town besieged

A classic mass combat encounter-you have a bunch of troops attacking a fortified location. The PCs have to keep killing enemies and stay alive until the enemy morale drops enough for the attacking army to break and run. It is a series of lesser encounters, actually, significantly lowering the PCs' chance of death while also making most of the munchkin move combos balanced-it is the frag count that matters-not if you can kill a massive foe in one blow.


The Immortality Quester

This is a single monster that through items, spells, abilities or racial traits has amassed a crapload of immunities and defences, trying to become effectively immortal. The monster itself has relatively weak attack capabilities though. It is as strong offencively as a single monster of the appropriate CR but 5-6 times as difficult to kill (extreme saves, immunities, DR, fast healing, high AC). The PCs have a low chance of dying but must spend ALOT of resources bringing this baddie down.




NOTE:

All the above encounters take up the place of all other encounters together for that game day. The trick is to keep the offencive limited while drawing out the encounter with massive numbers, high defences and evasive maneuers. It is just what would happen if you gave them 4-5 normal encounters one right after the other.