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Duke of URL
2008-02-05, 03:03 PM
GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE II: GREAT GISHES

Given the choice between spell and sword, I choose... both

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

"Great Gishes" Specific Rules
Entries may be submitted and edited up until noon PST on Tuesday, Feb. 12, 2008.
Challenge goals: Create the ultimate "gish" -- an arcanist who is also a potent warrior. Try to maximize both combat and magic capabilities.
Please try to follow the format of the example (but also a legit entry) in the next post
Entries:
"Lion King" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3893436&postcount=2)
"Blade of Insight" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3897815&postcount=18)
"Mr. Shifty" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3897821&postcount=19)
"Cleric of the Earth Divine" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3897854&postcount=20)
"Psychic Warblade" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3898156&postcount=21)
"Snake on a Plane" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3900143&postcount=22)
"Iron Man" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3900469&postcount=24)
"Supermount Spell Sage" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3900575&postcount=26)
"Action!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3901014&postcount=29)
"Raging Doom Caster" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3903446&postcount=34)
"Thunderer" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3904346&postcount=42)
"Micro Zorro" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3904402&postcount=43)
"Variousblade Incantagish" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3905191&postcount=54) <== Winner!
"Ownage Link" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3905561&postcount=55)
"Ursa Mager" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3905972&postcount=58)
"Gatling Secondus" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3906011&postcount=59)
"Mean, Green, Argent Machine" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3907363&postcount=64)
"Steroids" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3909654&postcount=75)
"Elven Heavy Artillery" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3911397&postcount=77)
"Faeries Die With Their Boots On" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3913237&postcount=82)
"Divine Chosen Avatar of Face-Smashing" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3916369&postcount=89)
"Poor Man Version 2" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3917704&postcount=93)
"Thunderer's Little Helper" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3922006&postcount=112)
"Metamage Knight" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3923896&postcount=123)
"Master of (Meta)magic" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3926452&postcount=124)
"Spellsquid" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3931785&postcount=150)



Upcoming Challenges
The Urge To Theurge -- mixing and matching magic (and psionic) disciplines
Army Of One -- single-creature adventuring parties
Invocation Vocation -- invokers need a little loving, too
Double Dippers -- double arcane, double divine, or double psionic progressions
more to come...


Previous Challenges
Melee Masters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3873051)

Duke of URL
2008-02-05, 03:04 PM
Name: "Lion King"
Build: Rakshasa HD 7 / Sorcerer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Spellsword 1 // LA 7 / Paladin of Tyrrany 2 / Hexblade 10 / Marshal 1
Starting Ability Scores: STR 18, DEX 14, CON 18, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 22
Cheese Points: 1 (Multiclassing Penalty)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 8
Power Break: Level 19 -- Improved Metamagic plus Spell Thesis equals Empowered Chain Fell Drain Energy Drain Spells with 9th level slots

Rakshasa: {Rakshasa Traits}
1: Outsider 1 // LA 1: Iron Will
2: Outsider 2 // LA 2:
3: Outsider 3 // LA 3: Eschew Materials
4: Outsider 4 // LA 4:
5: Outsider 5 // LA 5:
6: Outsider 6 // LA 6: Empower Spell
7: Outsider 7 // LA 7:
8: Sorcerer 1 // Paladin of Tyrrany 1: {Metamagic Specialist, Aura Of Evil, Detect Good, Smite Good}
9: Sorcerer 2 // Paladin of Tyrrany 2: Extend Spell {Divine Grace, Deadly Touch}
10: Incantatrix 1 // Hexblade 1: Maximize Spell {Focused Studies, Hexblade Curse}
11: Incantatrix 2 // Hexblade 2: {Cooperative Metamagic, Arcane Resistance}
12: Incantatrix 3 // Hexblade 3: Chain Spell {Metamagic Effect, Mettle}
13: Incantatrix 4 // Hexblade 4: Fell Drain {Dark Companion}
14: Incantatrix 5 // Hexblade 5: Spell Penetration {Metamagic Spell Trigger}
15: Incantatrix 6 // Hexblade 6: Easy Metamagic: Chain Spell {Seize Concentration}
16: Incantatrix 7 // Hexblade 7: Quicken Spell {Instant Metamagic}
17: Incantatrix 8 // Hexblade 8: {Snatch Spell, Greater Hexblade Curse}
18: Incantatrix 9 // Hexblade 9: Arcane Thesis: Energy Drain
19: Incantatrix 10 // Hexblade 10: Fell Animate, Greater Spell Penetration {Improved Metamagic}
20: Spellsword 1 // Marshal 1: {Ignore ASF, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Minor Aura}

Offense

On side #1, casts as a Sorcerer (Metamagaic Specialist variant) with caster level 20, including spells known and spells per day, plus the Incantatrix's metamagic overkill... 'nuff said. The Marshal dip gives CHA bonus to spell penetration. On side #2, full BAB all the way (level 20 gets the full BAB from side #1), use Dark Companion and Greater Hexblade Curse features to weaken opponents before unloading Sorcerer spells on them.

Defense

Good all around saves (Reflex lags the others), plus CHA to saves, plus CHA again to saves vs. spells and SLAs. Good HP. Mettle to negate "half" effects from Fortitude or Will saves.

Weaknesses

AC can be a problem, will need to invest in some low-level defensive spells, use items, and/or find good armors with low ASF. Mediocre damage dealer with melee weapons, need spells and items to improve combat prowess.

Swooper
2008-02-05, 05:14 PM
I'm assuming psionics are allowed? If so, you can expect a submission from me in a few days.

Also, how detailed does it have to be? Do I have to include every spell/power/manouvre known, for example?

lord_khaine
2008-02-05, 05:30 PM
I'm assuming psionics are allowed? If so, you can expect a submission from me in a few days.


do i sense something with a prestige class that rhymes on layer? :smallsmile:

Swooper
2008-02-05, 05:39 PM
do i sense something with a prestige class that rhymes on layer? :smallsmile:
Quite possible :smallwink:

Chronos
2008-02-05, 06:34 PM
Hmm, would something with full BAB and spell/psi progression be considered a "dual progression" PrC, for a million cheese points?


Also, how detailed does it have to be? Do I have to include every spell/power/manouvre known, for example?Given that the Duke didn't list sorcerer spells in his example, I would presume not. It's probably a good idea to mention any you plan to make extensive use of, though.

zaei
2008-02-05, 07:07 PM
Looks like divine magic is out then? =(

Duke of URL
2008-02-06, 08:22 AM
I'm assuming psionics are allowed? If so, you can expect a submission from me in a few days.


Looks like divine magic is out then? =(

I quite intentionally placed no class restrictions on this one. As long as it serves the purpose of the challenge, use whatever you like. You an use divine magic, but it needs to be in service to a arcane-themed "gish". Don't worry, the next challenge will allow the CoDzillas to shine. :smallbiggrin:


Also, how detailed does it have to be? Do I have to include every spell/power/manouvre known, for example?
Include the level of detail necessary to "show off" your creation -- if there is a specific spell/power/whatever that is key, be sure to include it, otherwise, use your own discretion.

Swooper
2008-02-06, 08:51 AM
Hmm, would something with full BAB and spell/psi progression be considered a "dual progression" PrC, for a million cheese points?Good question. I'd like an answer to this as well. Also, if it DOES count as "dual progression", would it still get cheese points if the other side already gives full BAB?

Given that the Duke didn't list sorcerer spells in his example, I would presume not. It's probably a good idea to mention any you plan to make extensive use of, though.
That's what I'm planning right now.

Duke of URL
2008-02-06, 08:53 AM
Hmm, would something with full BAB and spell/psi progression be considered a "dual progression" PrC, for a million cheese points?

Depends... what's the PrC? (besides, it's not me you have to convince, but rather those doing the voting)

Swooper
2008-02-06, 09:50 AM
Depends... what's the PrC? (besides, it's not me you have to convince, but rather those doing the voting)
There are several he could be planning to use - Eldritch Knight, Spellsword (the first level at least, that's a popular dip for arcane gishes), Abjurant Champion, and (Illithid) Slayer.

Duke of URL
2008-02-06, 09:56 AM
I don't know all of those off-hand. The two I'm more familiar with are Eldritch Knight and Spellsword.

Eldritch Knight, by me at least, be considered to be close enough to a "dual progression" class to draw suspicion -- 9/10 spellcasting and full BAB? The counter-arguments are that it only has one good save (Fort) and doesn't really have any martial class advancement of abilities beyond BAB.

Meh. There are better ways to get the same benefits in Gestalt anyway.

Spellsword is only a 5/10 spell progression class, so I have no problem with that.

Swooper
2008-02-06, 10:09 AM
Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) is in the SRD. Abjurant Champion is widely considered the 'ultimate' arcane gish class, giving bonuses to AC from spells, auto-quickening abjuration spells and some stuff like that off the top of my head. It's in the Complete Mage.

Nebo_
2008-02-06, 10:17 AM
Spellsword is only a 5/10 spell progression class, so I have no problem with that.

Seems like a bit of a cop out. You need to specify what dual progression actually means. Full BAB and spell casting might qualify, or dual casting. Personally, I would use Abjurant Champion in a build like this, not for the full BAB and spell casting (that can be done so easily in Gestalt), but for the class features that are so useful to a gish. Anima Mage is another dual progression class that would be useful because of class features.

I would suggest that a dual progression class takes up both sides of a progression instead of being banned outright. That way your build wouldn't lose 1,000,000 points.



Meh. There are better ways to get the same benefits in Gestalt anyway.

I'd like to see you get auto quickened abjurations and an extra 5 AC on shield without Abjurant Champion.

Duke of URL
2008-02-06, 10:24 AM
Seems like a bit of a cop out. You need to specify what dual progression actually means.

Generally, it means each level of the class advances the key class abilities of two "entry" classes -- Mystic Theurge is a classic example, as it provides +1 spellcasting to both arcane and divine at every level. Arcane Trickster provides full spellcasting, full sneak attack progression, and additional abilities -- clearly dual progression.

In short, it comes down to intent. If the PrC is essentially designed to have two entr classes and have both of those classes progress at full (or very near full) rates, it's dual-progression.

I really don't want these threads cluttered with a philosophical discussion of what should or shouldn't be allowed in gestalt -- use common sense, and understand that if you push the borders of the guidelines laid out, you may lose votes for it. Or you may not. It depends on the voters, make your case to them.


I would suggest that a dual progression class takes up both sides of a progression instead of being banned outright. That way your build wouldn't lose 1,000,000 points.

That's acceptable, and well within the way I've seen gestalt played. Oh, and BTW, you don't "lose" 1M points, you gain 1M "cheese points", which is only one subcategory of judging, and was primarily put there for the humor value.

Duke of URL
2008-02-06, 10:58 AM
Psst... the guidelines call for arcane spellcasting in the gish build...

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-06, 11:01 AM
Blast! Ignore my entry. I'll use it for some other contest in the FUUUTURE!

Omniplex
2008-02-06, 11:37 AM
I'm no powergamer, and this is just a basic blueprint, but I'll give this a shot
Name: Blade of Insight
Build: Wizard/A.C./Spellsword//Warblade/Eternal Blade
Starting Ability Scores: 8 str, 16 dex, 12 con, 18 int, 10 wis, 10 cha
Cheese Points:Juggling wizard levels
Minimum Playable Level: why not 1?
power Break: at level 9 he gets channel spell, so he can, theoretically, in one turn, cast a spell and perform a maneuver. Either way, he has some powerful backup to his attacks.
Grey Elf
Wizard1/Warblade1
Wizard2/Warblade2
Wizard3/Warblade3
Wizard4/Warblade4
Wizard5/Warblade5
Spellsword1/Warblade6
Spellsword2/Wizard6
Spellsword3/Warblade7
Spellsword4/Wizard 7
Abjurant Champion1/Warblade8
Abjurant Champion2/Warblade9
Abjurant Champion1/Warblade10
Abjurant Champion1/Warblade11
Abjurant Champion1/Warblade12
Wizard8/Eternal Blade1
Wizard9/Eternal Blade2
Wizard10/Eternal Blade3
Wizard11/Eternal Blade4
Wizard12/Eternal Blade5
Wizard13/Eternal Blade6

Feats: W. Finesse, W. Focus, Combat Casting, Quicken Spell
Important items: Rapier, Headband of Intellect

I'll add more to it later as I figure out how it will work, and I don't know that it's so much potent as it is SAD for Int.

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-06, 11:39 AM
Name: "Mr. Shifty"
Build: Wild Shape Ranger 5/ Master of Many forms 10/ Kensai 5/ Transumter 20
Starting Ability Scores: Str 12 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 15
Cheese Points: 0! (1 for natural spell?)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1
Power Break: Level 6 -- Transform into wartroll, but look like anything you want thanks to chageling- Cast Arcane spells in wild shape form with Natural Spell.

Wild Shape Ranger 1 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 1
Wild Shape Ranger 2 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 2
Wild Shape Ranger 3 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 3
Wild Shape Ranger 4 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 4
Wild Shape Ranger 5 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 5
Master of Many forms 1 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 6
Master of Many forms 2 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 7
Master of Many forms 3 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 8
Master of Many forms 4 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 9
Master of Many forms 5 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 10
Master of Many forms 6 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 11
Master of Many forms 7 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 12
Master of Many forms 8 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 13
Master of Many forms 9 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 14
Master of Many forms 10 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 15
Kensai 1 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 16
Kensai 2 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 17
Kensai 3 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 18
Kensai 4 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 19
Kensai 5 // Specialist Wizard, Transmutation 20

Race: Changeling

Feats: Natural Spell, Multi-Attack, Improved Multi-Attack, Improved Grapple

This build gives you a lot of versatillity. In the first column, you get BAB up to 17, which is great, but not optimal. Fortunately, the loss of BAB is more than made up by the huge range in forms granted by the MoMF, not to mention the favored weapon and power surge from Kensai. Your actual BAB quickly becomes irrelevant for #of attacks due to multi attack and improved multi-attack. In melle, you have the abillity to neutralize powerful opponents via grapples, deal huge amounts of damage, and custom pick your abillities depending on the challenge. Relatively poor physical stats are completely bypassed by wild shape. Out of combat, your wide variety of forms gives you utter mastery of any puzzle, skill challenge, or social interaction. The Cha-based skill bonuses from Kensai also make you a master of social interactions.

In the second column- you are a full caster. As a specialist transmuter you have access to the most powerful spells in the game. You can use reduce or enlarge person on yourself in wild shape form, since wild shape doesn't change your type or subtype, to gain access to larger and smaller forms than you normally would be able to. And, thanks to Natural Spell, you can do all of this while still in the form of a war troll, mimic, dragon, elemental, gelatinous cube, or gnat. You also gain access to other form-altering spells that maxamize your in-combat potential. There is truly no situation in which you are not useful.

My favorite part of this build is the synergy between transmutation and shapeshifting. Flavor-wise it is a real winner, and mechanically each abillity meshes well with all others. This character could be played as an elegant trickster (great social skills, illusions, charms, and shapeshifting) or a melevolent force (Brutal combat, transforming into ever-stronger forms, and killing enemies ruthlessly with effects like finger of death, baleful polymorph, and Insanity), or as a spymaster (utterly uncontainable, imminently intelligent, able to fool anybody anywhere, but not afraid to throwdown when things get rough).

Obrysii
2008-02-06, 11:46 AM
I actually used this build in a Eberron gestalt game. I've since lost the character sheet and original plan, so I'm not sure which feats I picked up. But here's the basic build - I hope it is okay. I've never submitted anything for these challenges, so, here goes.

Name: "Cleric of the Earth Divine"
Build: Human Cleric 18/Lich 2//Wizard 4/Geomancer 10/Wizard 2/Lich 2/Wizard 2
Starting Ability Scores: STR 12, DEX 14, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 16, CHA 8
Cheese Points: [Not sure]
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: 14. All spells, wizard and cleric, are cast in whichever way is best. So Kyra uses her Wis score to set DCs and bonus spells on both Cleric and her Wizard side.

Cleric 1 // Wizard 1
Cleric 2 // Wizard 2
Cleric 3 // Wizard 3
Cleric 4 // Wizard 4
Cleric 5 // Geomancer 1
Cleric 6 // Geomancer 2
Cleric 7 // Geomancer 3
Cleric 8 // Geomancer 4
Cleric 9 // Geomancer 5
Cleric 10 // Geomancer 6
Cleric 11 // Geomancer 7
Cleric 12 // Geomancer 8
Cleric 13 // Geomancer 9
Cleric 14 // Geomancer 10
Cleric 15 // Wizard 5
Cleric 16 // Wizard 6
Cleric 17 // Lich 1
Cleric 18 // Lich 2
Lich 3 // Wizard 7
Lich 4 // Wizard 8

This build presents a number of neat benefits: you get the various drifts and leyline bonuses from the Geomancer class, while gaining the ability to cast all of your spells (wizard and cleric) based on whichever modifier is the highest (Wisdom). As well, you gain the ability to become a Lich at high level, granting virtual immortality.

Clerics make good melee'ers, and your final HD ends up being 20d12 after the lich transformation, with of course no Con modifier.

Swooper
2008-02-06, 12:49 PM
Name: "Psychic Warblade"
Build: Psion 1-4/Slayer 1-10/Psion 6-11//Warblade 1-4/Psion 5/Warblade 5-19
Starting Ability Scores: STR 16, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
Cheese Points: 2 (Flaws)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1
Power Break: The major ones occur at levels 12 and 15, when he acquires Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's Gambit, respectively.

Human: {Human Traits}
1: Psion 1 // Warblade 1: Power Attack, Psionic Weapon, Overchannel, Track, Up the Walls {Psion Bonus feat, Weapon Aptitude, Battle Clarity} [Flaws: Shaky and Murky-eyed]
2: Psion 2 // Warblade 2: {Uncanny Dodge}
3: Psion 3 // Warblade 3: Expanded Knowledge (Expansion){Battle Ardor}
4: Psion 4 // Warblade 4:
5: Slayer 1 // Psion 5: Psionic Meditation {Favoured enemy +2, Enemy Sense, Psion Bonus Feat}
6: Slayer 2 // Warblade 5: Combat Reflexes {Brain nausea, Warblade Bonus Feat}
7: Slayer 3 // Warblade 6: {Lucid buffer, Improved Uncanny Dodge}
8: Slayer 4 // Warblade 7: {Favoured enemy +4, Battle Cunning}
9: Slayer 5 // Warblade 8: Greater Psionic Weapon
10: Slayer 6 // Warblade 9: Ironheart Aura {Cerebral blind, Warblade Bonus Feat}
11: Slayer 7 // Warblade 10: {Favoured enemy +6}
12: Slayer 8 // Warblade 11: Stormguard Warrior{Breach power resistance, Battle Skill}
13: Slayer 9 // Warblade 12: {Cerebral immunity}
14: Slayer 10 // Warblade 13: Improved Initiative {Blast feedback, favoured enemy +8, Warblade Bonus Feat}
15: Psion 6 // Warblade 14: Robilar’s Gambit
16: Psion 7 // Warblade 15: {Battle Mastery}
17: Psion 8 // Warblade 16:
18: Psion 9 // Warblade 17: Hold the Line, Blindfight {Warblade Bonus Feat}
19: Psion 10 // Warblade 18: Aligned Attack{Psion Bonus Feat}
20: Psion 11 // Warblade 19:

Offence

The major offensive power of this build comes from the combination of psionic feats and manoeuvres, creating a truly devastating melee beast right from level one. Concentrate on Diamond Mind with some Iron Heart and Stone Dragon manoeuvres thrown in and you should be golden. Full psionic manifestation should be used to cover his weaknesses and aid his strengths, either a Nomad or an Egoist would be best. His maneuverability is quite good as well - to begin with he can run up walls with ease, later he can use psionic powers and magic items to help (if he's a Nomad, he has access to many good movement powers from 7th level, such as Psionic Flight, Psionic Dimension Door and Psionic Freedom of Movement). I recommend using a reach weapon with this build, preferring the simple glaive myself. As soon as possible, this should be upgraded into a +1 Power Storing Deep Crystal Glaive. This is doubly important in the higher levels, when he gets the Stormguard Warrior feat, and then Robilar's Gambit and Hold the Line, allowing him to charge up his damage and to-hit from every forfeited AoO. He can deliver devastating full attacks if the enemy stands still, or use his manoeuvres to inflict similarly devastating single-hit attacks if the enemy is on the move. At 12th level his melee attacks start dropping the PR of any creature he damages by 1 per hit. In addition, he gains a favoured enemy bonus vs. a single type of psionic creatures.

Defense

This build has excellent saves, since he gets Fortitude from the Warblade, Will from Psion/Slayer and can add his Int bonus to Reflex saves - and Int should be his highest stat for the most part. For this reason he can ignore the DM concentration-instead-of-saving-throw manouvres, getting something more offensive instead. The AC should not be too low either despite using a two-handed weapon, thanks to powers such as Force Screen. Also, from 5th level, he can use heavy armour unlike most warblades, thanks to the Slayer. He also has high hit dice throughout his career, d12 on every level except the 5th one where he gets a d8. When his Slayer levels start piling up, his defences vs. mental attacks increase fast, giving him bonuses in saving throws against mental attacks, effective permanent Nondetection (while psionically focused) and finally immunity to mind-affecting effects at level 13 (again, only while focused).

Weaknesses

The main weakness of this build, I admit, is competition for actions from his classes. He can't, unfortunately, do everything at once. This can be mitigated, as pointed out above, by getting a Power Storing weapon, but that only goes so far. Some of his abilities (in particular many of those from the Slayer) only function while he is psionically focused. Some reliance on items, particularly dex and int boosting ones. With murky-eyed you might have some trouble with stuff with concealment, but in those situations you can fall back to using powers that ignore miss chance. I'm also sure, yet too lazy to go hunting for it, that there's some psionic power that let's you ignore concealment on attack rolls. Psionic True Sight is one, but it has only rounds/level duration and is a bit too high level to rely on.

Variants

An alternate way to do this build is the simpler Psion 1-4/Slayer 1-10/Psion 5-10//Warblade 20. This means that he loses out on psionic manifestation, but gains another level of Warblade and, at 20th level, Stance Mastery. Finally, the same effect could be achieved by the plain Psion 20//Warblade 20. This means he doesn't get the mental defences of the Slayer, nor Heavy Armour proficiency, but on the other hand it doesn't sacrifice Manifester- or Initiator levels.

...Right, did I miss any points about this build?

EDIT: The flaws are not strictly necessary, but I threw them in there anyway. Overchanneling is always fun, and this guy has the HP to take the hit. Speed of Thought is not necessary either, but it helps on the lower levels. Sadly, it doesn't work while wearing heavy armour.

EDIT2: Guess I should have included which flaws I'm taking.

EDIT 3: Just realised I had a feat on 2nd level for no good reason. A feat I didn't qualify for, either. Well, corrected by changing around some of the feats on levels 1-3.

Chronos
2008-02-06, 07:16 PM
OK, the logical response to Duke of URL's Lion King, I present:

Snake on a Plane
Build:Couatl HD 9/Sorcerer 1/Loremaster 10 // LA 7/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Paladin (of honor) 9
Starting Ability Scores: Str 24, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 22
Cheese Points: 1 (multiclassing penalty)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 9
Power Break: ECL 10 (Righteous Might), 18 (Miracle)

Couatl {coatl traits}
1: Outsider 1 // LA 1: Eschew Materials B, Extend Spell
2: Outsider 2 // LA 2
3: Outsider 3 // LA 3: Heighten Spell
4: Outsider 4 // LA 4
5: Outsider 5 // LA 5
6: Outsider 6 // LA 6: Still Spell
7: Outsider 7 // LA 7
8: Outsider 8 // Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple{Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, AC bonus}
9: Outsider 9 // Monk 2: Skill focus: Knowledge (Arcana), Combat Reflexes {Evasion}
10: Sorcerer 1 // Fighter 1: Power Attack {PHB2 rapid metamagic variant}
11: Loremaster 1 // Fighter 2: Improved Initiative {Secret of Inner Strength}
12: Loremaster 2 // Paladin 1: Quicken Spell {Lore, smite evil 1/day}
13: Loremaster 3 // Paladin 2: {Weapon Trick, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands}
14: Loremaster 4 // Paladin 3: {Bonus Language, Aura of Courage, Divine Health}
15: Loremaster 5 // Paladin 4: Ascetic Mage, Divine Metamagic: Quicken {Applicable Knowledge, Turn Undead}
16: Loremaster 6 // Paladin 5: {Greater Lore, Smite Evil 2/day, Charging Smite}
17: Loremaster 7 // Paladin 6: {Dodge Trick, Remove Disease /week}
18: Loremaster 8 // Paladin 7: Mindsight {Bonus Language}
19: Loremaster 9 // Paladin 8: {Secret Knowledge of Avoidance}
20: Loremaster 10 // Paladin 9: {True Lore, Remove Disease 2/week}

Sorcerer spells known (not exhaustive):
0: Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Guidance
1: True Strike, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Armor, Shield
2: Locate Object, Alter Self, Web, Glitterdust, Aid
3: Clairvoyance, Stinking Cloud, Magic Circle against Evil, Haste
4: Enervation, Charm Monster, Death Ward
5: Righteous Might, Control Winds, Shadow Evocation
6: Heal, Disintegrate, Acid Fog
7: Summon Monster VII, Waves of Exhaustion, Bite of the Werebear
8: Holy Aura, Iron Body, Mind Blank
9: Miracle, Foresight

Offense: Snake maintains full sorcerer casting and full BAB throughout his progression. As a couatl, he can learn sorcerer spells from the cleric list and Air domain, giving him access to the melee powerhouse Righteous Might and do-everything Miracle. As an outsider, he has access to other outsider forms via Alter Self, such as the Dwarven Ancestor. He always starts a fight invisible (thanks to his at-will ability as a couatl), and Clairvoyance and his at-will Detect Alignment and Detect Thoughts abilities allow him to gather intel before a fight. Against a single foe, he uses quickened buffs and wades into melee. In situations where he can only make one attack, he bites and immediately makes a grapple attempt (thanks to Improved Grab), with a very high bonus to the check. If full attacks are preferable, he instead takes a Flurry of Blows with his unarmed strike. Against groups of monsters, he has an area-effect save-or-suck for each of the three saves, which he can heighten as necessary, before taking on those that make their saves. When faced with numbers too large for conventional sorcerer AOE spells, he takes to the air and casts Control Winds (courtesy of the air domain).

Divine Metamagic allows him to quicken one of his buff spells the same round he enters melee. While Nightsticks will of course help here, even without them, he has enough turning checks to quicken at least two (or possibly three, depending on Cha-boosting equipment) spells per day. Even if all of his turn attempts and useful spells are exhausted, he has unlimited use of two different save-or-suck effects, Plane Shift or poison (the poison admittedly has a low DC, but a 1 still fails, and it's fairly high Strength damage).

At 18th level, the Miracle spell adds many options. He uses it to cast a permanencied Greater Magic Fang on his bite and his unarmed strike, bringing both to +5, and a Contingencied Righteous Might, triggered by him saying the word "Durkon" (this allows him to toss up both Bite of the Werebear and Righteous Might quickly in a critical fight, while still leaving enough time in the round for a charge or full attack). He also miraculously casts a great many Magic Mouth spells on himself at high CL, with obscure and highly unlikely triggering conditions, as insurance against being caught in an area dispel (which will hopefully only dispel a Mouth, leaving the important buffs untouched).

Defense: In his natural form, and with no buffs or equipment, Snake has an AC of 29 (-1 size, +2 dex, +9 natural, +1 dodge, +8 monk). With stat boosting items, this can be increased to 38, and with all of his buffs up, this can easily increase to 48 (+4 Mage Armor, +5 Shield of Faith, +1 Righteous Might). His saves are very good, at Fort +25, Ref +19, Will +26 (I think... Gestalt save progressions are confusing), and he has decent HP (9d8+11d10, with a +4 Con modifier before items). He can cast both Mind Blank and Death Ward, protecting him entirely from a great many spells, and between Foresight, Mindsight, and decent Spot and Listen skills, he's almost impossible to ambush. He has natural flight, and in a worst-case scenario, he can generally escape from a losing fight via his Ethereal Jaunt or Plane Shift abilities.

Utility: By level 20, Snake has 198 skill points, and access to some nice class skills, including Spot, Listen, Tumble, Diplomacy, all Knowledge skills, and UMD (though I'm not sure what he'd need UMD for, with access to the two largest spell lists already). He has natural flight, and his Plane Shift and Ethereal Jaunt abilities can help to transport himself and his party to distant destinations (if you land too far off-target with Plane Shift, just try again). He can coordinate his party's tactics telepathically, and he can render his entire party invisible.

Recommended equipment: Snake does not need any particular equipment, since he fights with natural weapons, and does not wear physical armor. However, he benefits from some items. As with any character, ioun stones are useful, especially the pale green prism (+1 on attacks and checks) and orange prism (+1 caster level). He can also use a Bead of Karma, thanks to paladin spellcasting, to increase his caster level for long-term buffs (note that the bead affects all spellcasting, not just divine). Nightsticks will allow him to quicken more spells, and ability score boosters are always useful. The highest priority for ability score boosters is Charisma, followed by Strength, but he can benefit from increases to most of his scores (Dex increases initiative and AC, Wis powers his paladin spells, and Con is obvious), so a Belt of Magnificence might be a sound investment (if it's possible to fit a belt for a giant flying snake). He'll also probably want backup weapons (usable in a humanoid form, via Alter Self or Change Shape) to deal with metallic damage reduction.

Weakness: Although he has many skill points, he gets the most per level at low levels, so he can only max out 7 skills. He also can't start adventuring until halfway through the non-epic progression, thanks to his high racial HD. And until he gets Ascetic Mage at 15th level, he relies mostly on natural armor for AC, so his touch AC will be poor.

Almost done with this. I might still swap out some other class for the second monk level, if I can find something with good enough benefits.

Draz74
2008-02-06, 07:46 PM
Weakness: Most of Snake's AC is from natural armor, and he's large (or huge, with Righteous Might), so his touch AC is poor. He'll be vulnerable to no-save rays like Enervation or Ray of Enfeeblement.

There's a splatbook Sorcerer spell, popular among dragons, that will fix this problem in a jiffy. It adds your NArmor bonus to your Touch AC. It's a Level 2 spell called Scintillating Scales, and is from the Spell Compendium (and somewhere else? not sure).


This is a work in progress. It's mostly core, since I don't have easy access to anything else, and I'm not sure what to do with some of the feats. There's probably a paladin variant without the mount which would work better, and I'm also not sure if I can do anything productive with Turn Undead (don't know the exact requirements for things like DMM). Suggestions would be welcome

Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a) is a good Paladin variant, free online, as an excerpt from Dungeonscape. Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12590298&postcount=4) are your other Paladin Variant choices. Whether Divine Spirit or Charging Smite is better depends mostly on whether you're seeing this gish as a formidible melee force, or a formidible caster.

Turn attempts also aren't hard to find a good use for. Look at the Divine Might feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight) in the SRD. You have high Charisma. You have Power Attack. You whack things. This feat is good for you. It's especially valuable if you can get full attacks. I don't think the Lion's Charge spell (also in Spell Compendium) is a Sorc/Cleric/Air spell, though, so I'm not sure how to get you more full attacks. Warblade dip is a tempting option for sure (Sudden Leap maneuver).

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 08:20 PM
Name: "Iron Man"
Build: Human Duskblade 20//Archivist 5/Divine Oracle 2/Sacred Exorcist 2/Prestige Paladin 3/Divine Oracle +8
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 18, WIS 10, CHA 10
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 3
Power Break: Level 12 -- Ability to autoquicken any spell cast from Archivist slots.

{table=head]ECL | Left Level | Right Level
1 | Duskblade | Archivist
2 | Duskblade | Archivist
3 | Duskblade | Archivist
4 | Duskblade | Archivist
5 | Duskblade | Archivist
6 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
7 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
8 | Duskblade | Sacred Exorcist
9 | Duskblade | Sacred Exorcist
10 | Duskblade | Prestige Paladin
11 | Duskblade | Prestige Paladin
12 | Duskblade | Prestige Paladin
13 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
14 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
15 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
16 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
17 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
18 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
19 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle
20 | Duskblade | Divine Oracle[/table]
Key Feats: Sword of the Arcane Order, Battle Blessing, Extraordinary Spell Aim.
Of Note: Full BAB, 20/20 Duskblade//19/20 "Archivist" casting, Armor Proficiency (through Heavy), Weapon Proficiency (through Martial).

Offense
Left Side casts as a duskblade and grants access to Arcane Channeling. Right Side is a bit of a conundrum. Due to the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, he can prepare any wizard spell via a spellbook into any of his paladin spell slots (in this case, because of prestige paladin, his archivist slots). Battle Blessing makes all of his paladin slots (in this case, because of prestige paladin, his archivist slots) automatically quickened. Completely capable of typical Clericzilla cheese.

Battle-blessinged harm followed by anything powered through Arcane Channeling--potentially inflict spells or spells like combust--would be the main point of attack. Might make use of battle-blessinged true strike.

Defense
Casts without ASF in medium armor. Has evasion and uncanny dodge, probably will fight sword and board due to low strength and rely on spells for damage. Uses Extraordinary Spell Aim coupled with AMF to shut other casters down and weaken other melee types. Deals with ranged attacks via entropic shield, blur, and blink. Has plenty of skill points to burn on things like Tumble and Spellcraft, but near-to-no need for such. Lowish HP (17d8+3d10+20 without equipment; 17d8+3d10+80 with equipment) can be compensated for with false life and/or divine vigor.

Weaknesses
Despite having evasion and uncanny dodge, might run into trouble with Reflex saves.

Equipment
(mostly for completeness' sake)
Weapon: Flaming Freezing Shocking Keen Adamantine Longsword +1
Shield: Arrow Deflecting Adamantine Heavy Shield +3
Crown: Headband of Intellect +6
Throat: Amulet of Health +6
Body: Mithral Full Plate of Heavy Fortification +1
Cloak: Cloak of Resistance +5
Hands: Gauntlets of Rust
Ring: Ring of Deflection +5
Ring: Ring of Blinking
Waist: Belt of Giant Strength +6
Feet: Boots of Haste
Slotless: Orange Ioun Stone

Frosty
2008-02-06, 08:34 PM
I'm too lazy to do it myself, but somebody please try to fit Ruby Knight Vindicator into one of these builds with Battle Blessing so you can cast as many quickened spells per round as you please?

playswithfire
2008-02-06, 08:40 PM
This would get voted out for cheeziness, but you could do supermount spell sage (arcane casting swordsage adaptation)



Strong Heart Halfling
Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage feat[Track], feat[Skill Focus(Handle Animal)]
Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage
Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage feat[IUS]
Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage paladin[Mounted Combat]
Holy Warrior Paladin //Arcane Swordsage
Beastmaster //Arcane Swordsage feat[Devoted Tracker]
Wild Plains Outrider //Arcane Swordsage
Wild Plains Outrider //Arcane Swordsage
Wild Plains Outrider //Arcane Swordsage feat[Mounted Archery]
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage feat[Dragon Mount]
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage feat[Ascetic Mage]
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage feat[Adaptive style]
Halfling Outrider //Arcane Swordsage
Beastmaster //Arcane Swordsage

25 spells and/or maneuvers, 12 of them readied and adaptive style to swap them out. So time stop, n-1 rounds of buffing you and your dragon (very young gold or silver with 14 extra HD and other animal companion/special mount benefits), then Adaptive Style to replenish your supplies before you start charging/blasting/debuffing everyone. CHA to saves from Paladin and to AC from swordsage and ascetic mage.

I think it works; it was fun to throw together anyway, though there's not enough info about arcane swordsage to be sure.

Holy Warrior is from complete champion; drops spellcasting for bonus feats.

Zincorium
2008-02-06, 09:39 PM
EDIT:

This version withdrawn in favor of different build. You'll see why.

Chronos
2008-02-06, 09:54 PM
Turn attempts also aren't hard to find a good use for. Look at the Divine Might feat in the SRD.OK, I can definitely see the value of that, but is it available to mortals? The heading of that section says that
Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.

And what's the duration on Glittering Scales? I don't want to rely too much on round/level buffs.

Reinboom
2008-02-06, 10:03 PM
Are we allowed multiple entries? :smalltongue:

Action! (work in progress)
Build: Wizard 8/Spellsword 1/Swiftblade 6/Abjurant Champion 5//Warblade 16/Swiftblade 4
Starting Ability Scores: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 18
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: Multiple. Most significant is at 14, where it gains a free standard action per round.


Human [Dodge*]
Lv: Class 1 // Class 2 / Frt / Ref / Wil / [Feats] and -noted spells-
1 : Sorcerer // Warblade / 2 / 0 / 2 / [Heavy Armor Prof] -benign transposition-
2 : Sorcerer // Warblade / 3 / 0 / 3 /
3 : Sorcerer // Warblade / 3 / 1 / 3 / [Mobility]
4 : Sorcerer // Warblade / 4 / 1 / 4 /
5 : Warblade // Spellsword / 6 / 1 / 6 / [Improved Initiative*] -nerveskitter-
6 : Sorcerer // Swiftblade / 6 / 3 / 8 / [Combat Casting] [Spring Attack*]
7 : Warblade // Swiftblade / 7 / 4 / 9 /
8 : Warblade // Swiftblade / 7 / 4 / 9 / -Ruin Delvar's Fortune-
9 : Sorcerer // Swiftblade / 8 / 5 / 10 / [Rapid Metamagic]
10: Warblade // Swiftblade / 9 / 5 / 10 / -Arcane Fusion-
11: Warblade // Swiftblade / 9 / 6 / 11 /
12: Sorcerer // Swiftblade / 9 / 6 / 11 / [Quicken Spell]
13: Warblade // Swiftblade / 10 / 7 / 12 / [Combat Reflexes*]
14: Warblade // Swiftblade / 10 / 7 / 12 / -Bite of the Werebear-
15: Sorcerer // Swiftblade / 10 / 8 / 13 / [Versatile Spellcaster]
16: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 11 / 9 / 15 / -Greater Arcane Fusion-
17: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 11 / 9 / 16 /
18: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 12 / 9 / 16 / [Lucky Start]
19: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 12 / 12 / 17 / [Lightning Reflexes*]
20: Warblade // Abjurant Champion / 13 / 12 / 17 /

(these are base saves - not considering stats or items)
Prefers to pump Charisma with the stat bonuses.

This is a low equipment character that loves its haste. It wants to get mithril equipment (mithril breastplate with Twilight enhancement, most notably) as soon as it can... but doesn't necessarily require it. It also LOVES the belt of battle - the more actions, the better. Once again, doesn't require it however.

Offense:
Offensively, it wants to win initiative as soon as it can. Improved Initiative, Lucky Start, and possibly nerveskitter try to ensure this, as well as preferably a weapon of warning, and a reroll, pre-items.
Once it takes action, it keeps taking action. It tries to get haste off asap, possibly as part of a haste, or as part of an arcane fusion with benign transposition to set up a tactical position advantage.
It then combines multiple standard actions with greater arcane fusion, quicken spell, Versatile Spellcaster to keep power arcane fusion/greater, with a definite goal of putting bite of the werebear in there. Utilizing only a single round to full buff itself, normally.
It then closes in the gap quickly, and rapidly utilizes an assortment of maneuvers with its immense amount of actions available.
Not to mention the utilizing haste as time stop spontaneously.

Defense:
It has great saves most of the way through, as well as full base attack bonus. Coupled with Ruin Delvar's Fortune (+CHA bonus to a single save as a swift action for 1d4 rounds, + other effects), it is difficult for it to fail a save.
It has many rounds and chances to buff itself, and the party. As a full spellcaster, it has many many options available to it on this side.
Its AC is decent, thanks to the help of the ASF reduction of spellsword, and eventually the AC benefit for shield provided by abj champ.
It has decent HP, as well.

Weakness:
*still checking back through build*


(In Progress Build)
Other build (if only single build allowed, this one is just for personal amusement:)


[B]I said... ACTION!


(Ranger is UA Wild Shape Alternative)
Lv: Class 1 // Class 2
1 : Ranger // Duskblade
2 : Ranger // Duskblade
3 : Ranger // Favored Soul
4 : Ranger // Sorcerer
5 : Ranger // Duskblade
6 : Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
7 : Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
8 : Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
9 : Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
10: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
11: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
12: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
13: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
14: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
15: Planar Shepherd // Duskblade
16: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion
17: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion
18: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion
19: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion
20: Favored Soul // Abjurant Champion
Planar Shepherd Advances Favored Soul.
Abjurant Champion Advances Sorcerer

Duke of URL
2008-02-07, 07:28 AM
You can enter as many builds as you like... voting is based on build, not participant. :smallsmile:

Please place each build in a separate post, however.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-07, 08:49 AM
Doesn't AbChamp and SpellSword count as Duo-Progression PrC's?

Frosty
2008-02-07, 11:27 AM
Full BAB is not a class feature, or else you'd be way too restricted in gestalt with regards to multiclassing.

Duke of URL
2008-02-07, 11:50 AM
Doesn't AbChamp and SpellSword count as Duo-Progression PrC's?

As I said in a previous post, I'm really not getting into this argument. As I see it, a dual-progression PrC advances the key class abilities of two different entry classes at every level (or really, really close to every level).

By that definition, Spellsword is most certainly not dual-progression because in addition to PrC-specific features, it a) only advances one entry class' key class ability and b) only does that for 5 out of 10 levels.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-07, 12:31 PM
"Name": Raging Doom Caster

The Idea: Combining Arcane Strike with Rage, and having the ability to deal massive damage both through weapons and spells.

Race: Human


{table=header]ECL | Class 1a | Class 1b | Class 2a | Class 2b | BAB | HD | Class Features
1 | Warmage | Barbarian | - | - | 1 | d12 | Armored Mage (light), Warmage Edge, Rage, Fast Movement, Rage 1/day
2 | Warmage | Barbarian | - | - | 2 | d12 | Uncanny Dodge
3 | Warmage | Barbarian | - | - | 3 | d12 | Advanced Learning, Trap Sense +1
4 | Warmage | Barbarian | - | - | 4 | d12 | Rage 2/day
5 | Warmage | Barbarian | - | - | 5 | d12 | Improved Uncanny Dodge
6 | Warmage | Barbarian | - | - | 6/1 | d12 | Trapsense +2, Advanced Learning
7 | Warmage | Barbarian | - | - | 7/2 | d12 | Damage Reduction 1/-, Sudden Empower
8 | Warmage | Barbarian | - | - | 8/3 | d12 | Rage 3/day, Armored Mage (Medium)
9 | Warmage | Barbarian | - | - | 9/4 | d12 | Trap Sense +3
10 | Warmage | - | - | Cleric | 10/5 | d8 | Sudden Enlarge, Turn/Rebuke Undead
11 | - | - | Incantatrix | Cleric | 11/6/1 | d8 | Bonus Metamagic Feat
12 | - | - | Incantatrix | Cleric | 12/7/2 | d8 | Send Away
13 | - | - | Incantatrix | Cleric | 13/8/3 | d8 | See Ethereal
14 | - | - | Incantatrix | Cleric | 14/9/4 | d8 | Strike Ethereal
15 | - | - | Incantatrix | Cleric | 15/10/5 | d8 | Bonus Metamagic Feat
16 | - | - | Incantatrix | Cleric | 16/11/6 | d8 | Hardy Spirit
17 | Warmage | - | Incantatrix | - | 17/12/7 | d6 | Advanced Learning, Instant Metamagic 1/day
18 | Warmage | - | Incantatrix | - | 18/13/8 | d6 | Improved Metamagic
19 | - | Barbarian | Incantatrix | - | 19/14/9 | d12 | Damage Reduction 2/-, Instant Metamagic 2/day
20 | - | Barbarian | Incantatrix | - | 20/15/10/5 | d12 | Greater Rage, Bonus Metamagic Feat, Drain Item
[/table]

Casts as:
11th level Cleric
18th level Warmage

Specialist School:
Abjuration

Prohibited School:
Enchantment, Illusion, Conjuration

Feats:
Human Bonus: Improved Initiative (or Exotic Weapon Feat: Bastard Sword)
1st: Empower Spell
3rd: Spell Focus: Evocation
6th: Piercing Evocation
9th: Instantaneous Rage
11th bonus MM: Maximize Spell
12th: Arcane Strike
15th: Somatic Weaponry
15th bonus MM: Enhance Spell
18th: Rapid Metamagic
20th bonus MM: Twin Spell

Strengths:
Melee (full BaB progression)
Armored casting
Healing Ability
Ranged Spells
Melee Spells

Weaknesses:
Low Reflex Save
No weapon focus/specialization
Stat-Demanding (Str, Int, Wis, Con)
Ability Boosting Equipment needed (stupid 28 point buy!) :smalltongue:

Base Stats @ 1st Level:
STR: 12
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 14
CHA: 12

Base Stats @ 20th Level:
STR: 12
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 17
CHA: 13

Buffed Stats (Belt of Magnificence +6):
STR: 18
DEX: 16
CON: 20
WIS: 20
INT: 23
CHA: 19

HP:
11d12+7d8+2d6+100 = 214 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1484636/)

How it could (should) work:
If you go with Improved Initiative build, then it will hopefully help you win initiative.

Either way...

1) On your turn, use your Free action to use Arcane Strike, sacrifice whatever level spell you desire (a 9th level would be +9 to your BAB and 9d4 to damage)
2) Use your Immediate action to initiate Instantaneous Rage (+6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -2 AC)

Your "new" buffed stats will be:
STR: 24
DEX: 18
CON: 26
HP: 274

Wielding a +5 weapon, your full-round attacks will be:
41/36/31/26

With corresponding Damage of (say, with a Bastard Sword):
1d10+12 + 9d4
1d10+12 + 9d4
1d10+12 + 9d4
1d10+12 + 9d4

That's not counting any "special" damage things you add to your Weapon (Screaming = 1d6 sonic, etc).

Now, if your foe is not in melee range, or if you want to soften them up, that's when your Warmage AoE spells + Instant Metamagic application of either Twin Spell, Enhance Spell, or Maximize Spell will soften them up.

Protection:
For Armor, Mithral Full Plate +5 is the obvious choice:
AC: 26
Arcane Failure: Ignored (Medium Armored Mage)

Add in a Heavy Mithral Shield +5:
AC: 33
Arcane Failure: 5%
(if you want to spend the $$, get Twilight and make the failure 0%)

Ring of Protection +5
AC: 38

Amulet of Natural Amor +5:
AC: 43

If you want to be ultra-cheesey, combine that with Retributive Amulet, and get an extra +2 Sacred bonus to AC and 1/2 damage returned to attacker:
AC: 45

Ring of Evasion + Ring of Greater Counterspells (don't want to fall prey AoE's or to Disjunction/Greater Dispel Magic, now do we?)

Vest of Resistence +5 to help with Saves.

Starmantle Cloak: well, with the Retributive Amulet, you wouldn't necessarily need this....but if you want uber-fromage, then by all means, buy one.

Alternate Feats (if concerned about DR):
Human Bonus: Weapon Focus
1st: Empower Spell
3rd: Spell Focus: Evocation
6th: Combat Expertise
9th: Instantaneous Rage
11th bonus MM: Maximize Spell
12th: Arcane Strike
15th: Somatic Weaponry
15th bonus MM: Enhance Spell
18th: Sense Weakness
20th bonus MM: Twin Spell

This will lower DR by 5 points, because you can't wield an Adamantium/Cold Iron/Silvered/Epic weapon. But, you can add the Sure Strike for +1 (counts as Lawful/Chaotic/Evil/Good, whatever bypasses that DR requirement.

Draz74
2008-02-07, 01:37 PM
Quicken Spell says that you can only Quicken one spell per round. I don't see how Ruby Knight Vindicator changes that, no matter how many swift actions it gives you.


OK, I can definitely see the value of that, but is it available to mortals? The heading of that section says that

These feats get taken by mortals all the time. Knock-Down? Extra Music? Energy Substitution? Normal feats. They just happen to be from a book about deities. They have no prerequisite or tag (like [Psionic] or [Epic]) that prevents you from taking them.

On the other hand, I was forgetting that Couatls only get one attack, even on a full attack, unless they somehow manage to use a weapon. (Hold greatsword in mouth?) So you might want to focus your build on being a one-hit smack build, like an UberCharger. In which case Divine Might isn't that great ... and Tome of Battle Strikes are that great.

Frankly this build should probably become Couatl Outsider 9/Sorcerer 1/Loremaster 10//LA 7/Paladin 2/Crusader 11. With only 2 Paladin levels, you won't need to worry about getting alternate class features.


And what's the duration on Scintillating Scales? I don't want to rely too much on round/level buffs.

Dunno, sorry. (Don't have Spell Compendium.) Understandable concern.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-07, 01:53 PM
Sir Malkein, Champion of Mystara

And for those who abuse the Art for the sake of personal gratification, for those who use the Art to abuse or repress, for those who see the Art as just another source of power... there shall be a reckoning. If they cannot see reason, they will see my Weave and Weal.

BuildPal4/Crusader16//Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/War Weaver4

Stats Still in progress, but high Cha

Concept:

IMO, a Gish is generally a 5th wheel... i.e. we already have the Tank/Caster/Healbot/Skillmonkey and need someone who can fill in if necessary. So, this build is generally set up as Party Support, Secondary Tank, Backup Healer, and BuffMaster.

Spells of note:

Mind Blank. Can cast on whole party. Since DMM never states you can only apply this on divine feats, I can DMM Chain it, with the turn attempts from the Paladin.
Greater Prying Eyes. Like True Sight, only without the expensive material component.
Greater Magic Weapon. Can cast through the Weave for buffing the whole party.
Magic Vestment. Gotten through the feat which grants him access to a domain. Put in the Weave along with GMW to buff the whole party's equipment.
Overland Flight. Because maneuverability is fun.
Haste. Again, party buff
Teleport, Greater. Party Taxi Cab
MMM. Rest peacefully.
Forcecage. For nasty melee stuff
Cloudkill. To combo with Forcecage

Every morning, the following spells are cast:

GMW, Magic Vestments, DMM Chain Mind Blank (on everyone), Greater Prying Eyes, Overland Flight.

This build is still a work in progress

Chronos
2008-02-07, 02:13 PM
On the other hand, I was forgetting that Couatls only get one attack, even on a full attack, unless they somehow manage to use a weapon. (Hold greatsword in mouth?) So you might want to focus your build on being a one-hit smack build, like an UberCharger. In which case Divine Might isn't that great ... and Tome of Battle Strikes are that great.Weapon use isn't too hard, if I decide I want to go that route. Couatls can change shape at will into any humanoid form (though the details of this ability are left maddeningly vague... It's listed as "change shape", not "alternate form" or some other standard ability), and I can also Alter Self into a wide variety of things. As it is, I can already do around 200 damage on a charge, if I get a chance to fully buff first (smite, Power Attack, etc., with Rhino's Rush cast as a paladin). Another option is grappling, since I'm large, buffable to huge or gargantuan, and have Improved Grab. Or, for that matter, charge and grapple.

I'm deliberately staying away from Tome of Battle. Like I said, I only have access to core, and while it's easy enough to toss in a feat here or a spell there, I think that I'd be in over my head trying to learn and master a whole new mechanic. And I've already come to the conclusion that there are other things mechanically superior to those two Dragon Disciple levels (Monk if I end up going unarmored, or Wilder or PsiWar for touch AC boost or feats, and a couple of powers), but I'm not sure I want to give up the DD levels, anyway... The couatl qualifies for them, right out of the box, and gestalt is one of the few situations where they don't hurt a build, so I like the novelty factor.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-07, 02:14 PM
I'm a little confused as to the above build ^^^

The rules are for "arcanists". Yes, Divine isn't disallowed...but from what I'm reading, it's supposed to be a main focus (like a 50/50 split).

Am I right in thinking most of the above classes are divine?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 02:16 PM
I'm a little confused as to the above build ^^^

The rules are for "arcanists". Yes, Divine isn't disallowed...but from what I'm reading, it's supposed to be a main focus (like a 50/50 split).

Am I right in thinking most of the above classes are divine?

Mine is divine* on one side and arcane on the other.

*"Divine" used loosely here, as I can actually put any divine spell and any wizard spell into those slots.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-07, 02:55 PM
Ahh..that would be due to my lack of familiarity with the Spellsword, Abjuration Champion and War Weaver.

I'll have to look into those.

Are we only allowed 1 entry, btw?

I have another variation that I'd like to throw out, if possible.

Duke of URL
2008-02-07, 02:57 PM
Post as many as you like (within reason), just keep each in a separate post.

weenie
2008-02-07, 03:24 PM
Name: "Thunderer"
Build: Duskblade 13 / Abjurant Champion 2 / Incantatrix 1 / Abjurant Champion 2 / Incantatrix 1 / Abjurant Champion 1 // Wizard 5 /
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 18, WIS 8, CHA 8
Cheese Points: 1 (More than one PrC at a time) + not sure what I should get from using Abjurant Champion and Ultimate Magus at the same time
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1
Power Break: Level 13 – Full attack channeling

Duskblade 1 // Wizard 1
Duskblade 2 // Wizard 2
Duskblade 3 // Wizard 3
Duskblade 4 // Wizard 4
Duskblade 5 // Wizard 5
Duskblade 6 // Incantatrix 1
Duskblade 7 // Incantatrix 2
Duskblade 8 // Incantatrix 3
Duskblade 9 // Incantatrix 4
Duskblade 10 // Incantatrix 5
Duskblade 11 // Incantatrix 6
Duskblade 12 // Incantatrix 7
Duskblade 13 // Ultimate Magus 1
Abjurant Champion 1 // Ultimate Magus 2
Abjurant Champion 2 // Ultimate Magus 3
Incantatrix 8 // Ultimate Magus 4
Abjurant Champion 3 // Ultimate Magus 5
Abjurant Champion 4 // Ultimate Magus 6
Incantatrix 9 // Ultimate Magus 7
Abjurant Champion 5 // Ultimate Magus 8

Casts as:
Wizard 20(Cl 23)
Duskblade 20(Cl 23)

Specialist school:
Abjuration

Prohibited schools:
Illusion
Necromancy

Feats:
1 Iron Will, Mage Slayer
2 bonus Combat Casting
3 Extend Spell
5 bonus Empower Spell
6 bonus Energy Substitution(sonic),Rapid Metamagic
9 Arcane Strike
10 bonus Twin Spell
12 Arcane mastery
15 Quicken Spell
17 bonus Persistent Spell
18 Elven Spell Lore(Stun ray)

Strenghts:
19 BaB
36 AC(Greater Luminous Armor(BoED), Persistend Shield) up to 45 with Spiderskin and Sonic Shield
Immunity to hostile spells or spell like abilities that target him (Persistent Effulgent epuration)
Thunderlance (Int to attack, 1.5X Int to damage, reach 20ft, overcomes any DR)
Imune to energy drain/death effects
Stone body for imunity to extra damage from critical hits, ability damage and DR 10/adamantine
Automatically overcomes SR 36 or less(46 with Assay spell resistance)
Good will save
True Striking Full-attack Arcane Channeled Persistent Irresistible Dance FTW! :smallbiggrin:

Weaknesses:
Mediocre fort and low ref save
Needs all the int boost it can get fot optimal performance and ring of freedom of movement so it doesn't het eaten

Base Stats @ 1st Level:
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 18
CHA: 8

Base Stats @ 20th Level:
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 23
CHA: 8

Buffed Stats (Amulet of health +6,Headband of intellect +6,Tome of clear thought +5):
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 20
WIS: 8
INT: 34
CHA: 8

Average HP:
188.5

How it works:

Things to cast in the morning:
-Persistent Effulgent Epuration(SpC, Persistened thanks to Incantatrix's Instant Metamagic)
-Mind Blank
-Superior Resistance(SpC)
-Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability(SpC)
-If you have some means of sudden maximisation Persistent Thunderlance is also a good thing to have, otherwise use an 8th level slot to have it Quickened and Empowered. Just in case. :smallwink:

When fighting a non-spellcaster the Thunderer has all the options in the world. Usually full attacking the foe for a few rounds will do the job. Body of stone is a good pre-battle buff in this case. If the Thunderlance doesn't do enough damage on it's own, Arcane Strike and Arcane Channeling are both good options and can be even used simultaneously. Actualy going nova is something the Thunderer is exceptional at.

Against a spellcaster you'll want to Dimension Door in as soon as possible. Thanks to Mage Slayer and the 20ft reach of Thunderlance your foe will be almost powerless and if it actually succeds at casting something at you, a previously cast Persistent Effulgent Epuration should keep you safe. Oh, and if the enemy caster is too heavily buffed, your greater dispell magic works at a +22 bonus thanks to Elven Spell Lore(PH2), so you automatically dispell al spells with a caster level of 21 or lower. Pre-battle buff with Greater Arcane Sight when possible.

Draz74
2008-02-07, 03:33 PM
A Killer Gnome is a Two-Edged Sword

Name: Micro Zorro
Build: Whisper Gnome Beguiler 15/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 4//Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Blade Bravo 10/Swordsage 4
Starting Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 6
Cheese Points: 3 (2 flaws, 1 multiclassing (Swordsage))
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Breaks: Level 12 (Confound the Big Folk), Level 15 (Titan Fighting), Level 19 (Shadow Illusion)

Whisper Gnome
2 Flaws: Inattentive, Shaky

Level 1: Beguiler 1 // Rogue 1 -- (Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6), Combat Expertise, Spell Focus: Illusion, Earth Sense
Level 2: Beguiler 2 // Swashbuckler 1 -- (Cloaked Casting, Surprise Casting), Weapon Finesse
Level 3: Beguiler 3 // Rogue 2 -- (Evasion, Advanced Learning), Weapon Focus: Rapier
Level 4: Beguiler 4 // Swashbuckler 2 -- (Grace +1)
Level 5: Beguiler 5 // Swashbuckler 3 -- (Insightful Strike), Silent Spell
Level 6: Mindbender 1 // Rogue 3 -- (Sneak Attack +1d6), Heighten Spell
Level 7: Beguiler 6 // Blade Bravo 1 -- (Surprise Casting, Flourish, Goad)
Level 8: Beguiler 7 // Blade Bravo 2 -- (Advanced Learning, Mobile Fighting)
Level 9: Beguiler 8 // Blade Bravo 3 -- (Cloaked Casting), Underfoot Combat, Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 10: Beguiler 9 // Blade Bravo 4 -- (Sneak Attack +3d6)
Level 11: Beguiler 10 // Blade Bravo 5 -- (Size Advantage), Still Spell
Level 12: Beguiler 11 // Blade Bravo 6 -- (Advanced Learning), Confound the Big Folk, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 13: Beguiler 12 // Blade Bravo 7 -- (Small But Deadly)
Level 14: Beguiler 13 // Blade Bravo 8 -- (Sneak Attack +4d6)
Level 15: Beguiler 14 // Blade Bravo 9 -- (Cloaked Casting), Dodge, Titan Fighting
Level 16: Beguiler 15 // Blade Bravo 10 -- (Advanced Learning, Lethal Riposte)
Level 17: Shadowcraft Mage 1 // Swordsage 1
Level 18: Shadowcraft Mage 2 // Swordsage 2 -- Earth Spell
Level 19: Shadowcraft Mage 3 // Swordsage 3 -- (Shadow Illusion)
Level 20: Shadowcraft Mage 4 // Swordsage 4

Favorite Swordsage Maneuvers:
Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw 5 boost)
Pouncing Charge (Tiger Claw 5 strike)
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1 boost)
Stalking Shadow (Setting Sun 5 counter)
Giant Killing Style (Setting Sun 3 stance)
Counter Charge (Setting Sun 1 counter)
Assassin's Stance (Shadow Hand 3 stance)
Mind over Body (Diamond Mind 3 counter)
Pearl of Black Doubt (Diamond Mind 3 stance)

Key Strategy: Get a permanent Reduce Person spell. Then carry a wand of Reduce Person (UMD-able) as a backup in case it gets dispelled.

Defenses: You have d8 Hit Dice at most levels, and his d6 and d10 levels even out. So he will not have very many hit points for a melee combatant, but his Constitution (which should be at least 14 after low levels) and high AC should make up for it.
Let's say you're at Level 16 (maneuvers haven't kicked in yet), and you're fighting a Large monster. Take at least a 5-foot step every turn, and use Underfoot Combat to move into the monster's area, and use Combat Expertise for -1 every turn. Your AC vs. that monster should be something like:
10 +2 (size) +9 (armor) +6 (Dex) +1 (Mobile Fighting) +4 (Dodge & Titan Fighting) +6 (Size Advantage) +4 (soft cover due to Underfoot Combat) +1 (Combat Expertise) = 43 AC. Not counting whatever other magic items or buffs you might have. Oh yeah, and if there are other monsters, your AC won't be as good against them, but they have a 50% chance of hitting your foe instead of you.
Meanwhile, you have a good Will save, a good Reflex save (with Evasion), and an OK Fort save.

Skills: This isn't even supposed to be a strong point for a Gish. But yeah ... at least 9 skill points at every level. You'll have to use a fair amount of them on social skills at the beginning. But if you're careful, you should really be able to be the party skill monkey, even though you're also the party arcanist and melee fighter. :smallamused: Beguilers are nice that way.

Offense: BAB +18. Full attack 6 attacks, unless you add more with Haste or Dancing Mongoose. Sneak Attack +4d6 (or +6d6 with Assassin's Stance). Intelligence mod to damage. At high levels, add Strikes and Giant Killing Style stance (+4 damage) into the mix.

But all of that is only if you actually need to fight. Full Beguiler spellcasting can win lots of fights without needing to fight, of course. And at high levels, you use Heightened Silent Image spells with Earth Spell to duplicate almost any Evocation or Conjuration spell you want as a Shadow Illusion, which is still pretty real (90% or more if you used your highest spell slots) even if it gets disbelieved.

It would be nice to "cheese out" the spellcasting side of the build sooner, of course. But I was trying to avoid "cheese points" by taking 2 PrC's (Shadowcraft Mage and Blade Bravo) at the same time. If you don't care about that, you can start taking Shadowcraft Mage as early as Level 9, and get the Shadow Illusion ability at Level 11. In the meantime, Beguiler spellcasting is still nothing to sneeze at.

Weaknesses: You can't buff yourself up as much as most Gishes. Your spells are mostly for out-of-combat situations, or save-or-lose when you don't feel like fighting (e.g. opponents that are immune to precision damage, but not immune to mind-affecting). Or, at high levels, for blasting or battlefield control. But you've got a little bit of good buffing mixed in there, such as Haste.

It's a shame he's so Feat-starved. Ideally, he should also get Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Elusive Target, and Shadow Blade. And that's only on the melee side of the equation.

Oh yeah. One more weakness: most of his cool combat abilities don't work if you face something that's actually Tiny or smaller. Not that I've heard of very many really threatening monsters along those lines. Even if you face them, you can just switch to concentrating on your spellcasting.

Chronos
2008-02-07, 03:50 PM
Am I right in thinking most of the above classes are divine?And mine is arcane, but with access to cleric spells. They're still counted as arcane, though (a pity... Divine spells would simplify the armor question).

Meanwhile, Fax, I'm not sure your build is legal (or at least, the Battle Blessing trick that your build gets so much use out of). Battle Blessing works on paladin spells, but the Prestige Paladin doesn't actually have any spells of its own. The spells advanced by Prestige Paladin in your build are archivist spells, just like my build has sorcerer spells, not Loremaster spells (and also like how you can't use Thaumaturge levels to advance Mystic Theurge spellcasting).


Draz74, you might want to start on Shadowcraft Mage a little earlier... Level 17 is a long time to wait for that Killer Gnome goodness. Unless it takes that long to meet prerequesites?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 03:52 PM
Meanwhile, Fax, I'm not sure your build is legal (or at least, the Battle Blessing trick that your build gets so much use out of). Battle Blessing works on paladin spells, but the Prestige Paladin doesn't actually have any spells of its own. The spells advanced by Prestige Paladin in your build are archivist spells, just like my build has sorcerer spells, not Loremaster spells (and also like how you can't use Thaumaturge levels to advance Mystic Theurge spellcasting).

Duke, you wanna give me a ruling on this?

Swooper
2008-02-07, 03:57 PM
Hmm, some comments on your build TheMeanDM:

The Idea: Combining Arcane Strike with Rage, and having the ability to deal massive damage both through weapons and spells. I'd like to point out that while you can use Arcane Strike while raging, you can't use any spells so that's a bit of a weakness.

Specialist School:
Abjuration

Prohibited School:
Enchantment, Illusion, Conjuration
Wait, what? Warmages can't choose specialist schools, nor do they have prohibited schools. They simply have a rather limited spell list of mainly damage dealing spells that they cast from spontaneously. Only wizards can be specialists.


Weaknesses:
Low Reflex Save
No weapon focus/specialization
Stat-Demanding (Str, Int, Wis, Con)
Ability Boosting Equipment needed (stupid 28 point buy!) :smalltongue:
...How is not taking either of two weak feats a weakness?

HP:
11d12+7d8+2d6+100 = 214 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1484636/) I uh... don't think rolling for hit points matter. Suppose you should rather take the average.


With corresponding Damage of (say, with a Bastard Sword):
1d10+12 + 9d4
1d10+12 + 9d4
1d10+12 + 9d4
1d10+12 + 9d4

That's not counting any "special" damage things you add to your Weapon (Screaming = 1d6 sonic, etc).
I'd like to point out that the bastard sword is not really doing anything for you there. You're spending a whole feat on getting, on average, one more damage per hit. Couldn't that feat be better spent? Also, you're spending 4 9th level spell slots in a single round, doing on average 90 damage. Not a bad nova, but how long are you going to keep that up?

Protection:
For Armor, Mithral Full Plate +5 is the obvious choice:
AC: 26
Arcane Failure: Ignored (Medium Armored Mage)

Add in a Heavy Mithral Shield +5:
AC: 33
Arcane Failure: 5%
(if you want to spend the $$, get Twilight and make the failure 0%)

Ring of Protection +5
AC: 38

Amulet of Natural Amor +5:
AC: 43
Not bad, but a lot of your WBL is spent on that, leaving less for utility.


Hope this helps, it's meant as constructive criticism :smallsmile:

TheMeanDM
2008-02-07, 04:14 PM
You're right, you can't cast spells while raging. But, you either cast them before hand (to soften opponent up) or you end your rage prematurely (which a Barb can do), cast your spell, and then Instantaneous Rage.

Also, please re-read Arcane Strike again.

You gain a bonus to all your attack rolls for 1 round, equal to the spell level and you gain a bonus of xd4 damage.

The feat does say, in the example, when talking about "Yarren": "Yarren gains an extra +4 bonus on his attack rolls and an extra 4d4 points of damage with a single melee weapon of his choice (his rapier).

Doesn't say "a single attack". It specifically says "single weapon". Which to me, means, for the entire round--with that weapon.. So you're not burning 4x 9th level spells per round. You spend one the first round, one the second, etc.

I was just using Bastard Sword as an example, if you look at the feats, I didn't actually build one with that particuar Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

When you take the Incantatrix PRC, you become a Specialist wizard in Abjuration (look at the PRC). Therefore, you need to take 2x banned schools. Plus, the PRC says you need to take one extra banned school (3x total). Can't take Divination or Universal as banned schools, according to rules.

I've only spent roughly 653k with those items (not including Starmantle cloak).
I don't know what other kind of "utility" stuff you would want. Boots of Speed, sure, that's cool. Ioun Stones? Sure, why not.

But seriously, what else would you need if you're trying to kill your opponents as quickly as possible?

Edit: and what's that about taking two feats? I'm confused...sorry.

expirement10K14
2008-02-07, 04:30 PM
For races that give level adjustment and RHD, but no starting Ability Bonuses, should I go by -11 for odd stats, -10 for even?

I making an Alhoon build, for those who understand that.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 04:33 PM
For races that give level adjustment and RHD, but no starting Ability Bonuses, should I go by -11 for odd stats, -10 for even?

I making an Alhoon build, for those who understand that.

That is correct.

expirement10K14
2008-02-07, 04:35 PM
That is correct.

Much thanks.

Zincorium
2008-02-07, 05:43 PM
You're right, you can't cast spells while raging. But, you either cast them before hand (to soften opponent up) or you end your rage prematurely (which a Barb can do), cast your spell, and then Instantaneous Rage.

The second one you cannot do. Rage can only be used once per encounter, and the fatigued condition afterwards does put a crimp into many characters as you can't charge.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-07, 05:54 PM
The second one you cannot do. Rage can only be used once per encounter, and the fatigued condition afterwards does put a crimp into many characters as you can't charge.

I thought that rage could be used when you wanted if you have any uses left.

Zincorium
2008-02-07, 06:01 PM
I thought that rage could be used when you wanted if you have any uses left.

No, and it says so right in the PHB, page 25, under the rage description. And in no uncertain terms.

"A barbarian can fly into rage only once per encounter."

Squash Monster
2008-02-07, 06:08 PM
"Name": Variousblade Incantagish

The Idea: Combine full casting, the ability to channel spells through melee attacks, and the ability to treat thrown weapons as melee attacks to get a caster that can use one touch-rage spell to hit four people at once. At thrown range.

Race: Human

{table=header]ECL | Class 1 | Class 2 | BAB | HD | Class Features
1 | Duskblade | Wizard | 1 | d8 | Scribe Scroll, Specialist: Transmutation (Drops Enchantment and Evocation), Spontaneous Magic: Sudden Shift (PHB2: replaces familiar), Arcane Attunement, Armored Mage (Light, Duskblade Only)
2 | Duskblade | Wizard | 2 | d8 | Combat Casting
3 | Duskblade | Wizard | 3 | d8 | Arcane Channeling
4 | Duskblade | Wizard | 4 | d8 | Armored Mage (Medium, Duskblade Only)
5 | Warblade | Spellsword | 5 | d12 | Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Ignore Spell Failure 10%
6 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wizard | 6/1 | d12 | Returning Attacks, Throw Anything, Bonus Metamagic Feat
7 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wizard | 7/2 | d12 | Martial Throw, Thunderous Throw
8 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 8/3 | d8 | Quick Cast 1/day, Bonus Metamagic Feat
9 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 9/4 | d8 | Spell Power +2, Send Away
10 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 10/5 | d8 | Armored Mage (Heavy Shield, Duskblade Only), See Ethereal
11 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 11/6/1 | d8 | Strike Ethereal
12 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 12/7/2 | d8 | Bonus Metamagic Feat
13 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 13/8/3 | d8 | Quick Cast 2/day, Hardy Spirit
14 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 14/9/4 | d8 | Spell Power +3, Instant Metamagic 1/day
15 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 15/10/5 | d8 | Improved Metamagic
16 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 16/11/6/1 | d8 | Arcane Channeling (Full Attack), Instant Metamagic 2/day
17 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wizard | 17/12/7/2 | d12 | Bonus Fighter Feat
18 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wizard | 18/13/8/3 | d12 | Lightning Ricochet
19 | Duskblade | Incantatrix | 19/14/9/4 | d8 | Bonus Metamagic Feat, Drain Item
20 | Duskblade | Archmage| 20/15/10/5 | d8 | Quick Cast 3/day, Mastery of Shaping
[/table]

Expected HP:
5d12 + 15d8 + 40 = 140 HP

Casts as:
20th level Wizard
15th level Duskblade

Specialization:
Transmutation (Drops Enchantment, Evocation)

Feats:
Human Bonus: Point Blank Shot
1st: Precise Shot
3rd: Extend Spell
6th: Iron Will
6th Bonus MM: Empower Spell
8th Bonus MM: Sculpt Spell
9th: Power Attack
12th: Spell Focus: Transmutation
12th Bonus MM: Silent Spell
15th: Spell Focus: Necromancy
17th Bonus Fighter: Rapid Shot
18th: Skill Focus: Spellcraft
19th Bonus MM: Persistent Spell

Maneuvers and Stances:
Steel Wind
Steely Strike
Disarming Strike
Punishing Stance

Strengths:
Full BAB
Armored Casting (use Spellsword's 10% reduction, ignore Duskblade)
Arcane Channeling allows delivery of touch spells through melee attacks
Thunderous Throw allows delivery of touch spells through thrown attacks
Mastery of Shaping.

Weaknesses:
Low Reflex Save
Semi-low HP

Base Stats:
STR: 14
DEX: 11
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 17
CHA: 8
Put all your bonuses into Intelligence. You especially need to have 18 int by level 5, so you can afford the skillpoints to qualify for Bloodstorm Blade.

How it works:
At level 20 (lower level explanations are below)
Cast Persistent Wraithstrike at the beginning of your day. (If this is too cheesy for you, and I can't blame you if it is, then persist a different buff. The build's just fine without it.)
When in a fight, use a swift action to activate Thunderous Throw, then use Arcane Channeling (Full Attack) to cast a touch-range spell of your choice: something fun like Temporal Stasis or Bestow Greater Curse. You can deliver this spell to four opponents at thrown range as a touch attack, doing damage while you're at it.

If you want be boring and just do damage, you're a Transmuter so buff yourself into the stratosphere then Power Attack for full (it'll hit: full BAB plus Wraithstrike). Activate Arcane Strike too, if you feel like it. You can do this with throwing, too, which is your main defense against anti-magic fields (stand outside the field, be buffed, and throw things at the guy responsible for the field).

Finally, at level 20 you get Mastery of Shaping from Archmage. This has a dozen uses, but the most important one is that you can cast Anti-Magic Field on yourself with a 5' hole in the center for yourself. Now you can walk right up next to most other gish builds and beat the tar out of them.

Protection:
Get your hands on a Thistledown-padded Twilight Mithril Fullplate. This armor has 10% arcane spell failure, and you ignore 10% for a total of none. If you can get more enchantments on it, go for things like Blurring and Displacement, since miss chance is more important than AC anyway (and these save you from having to cast those spells quite so often).

After that, try for the best Amulet of Natural Armor and ring of Protection you can.

Most of your protection should come from spells like Displacement and Greater Mirror Image. Additionally, at level 20 your personal doughnut-shaped anti-magic field is a great deal of protection as well.

Items:
You need a +2 dexterity enhancer by level 17 to qualify for Rapid Shot. If somehow you manage not to have one by then (how?) then find some other feat (Improved Initiative is a good choice).

Otherwise, pick good ability enhancement items (con, strength, int) and generic caster items. Rods of Metamagic are always good. Anything that boosts your Reflex save is good.

Additionally, try for boots of sidestepping. Most reflex-save spells are area of effect, so you might be able to slip out of the way.

Playability:
This build gets full wizard progression and full BAB, so you're not missing out at any level. That said, there are a few huge power spikes worth mentioning.

At level 3, you get arcane channeling. You can now cast your wizard spells through your weapon.

At level 5, you can wear armor. The Duskblade's Armored Mage doesn't apply to Wizard spells, so we can't use it. At level 5 Spellsword lets us ignore 10% of ASF. Here's where you start building towards the armor mentioned above.

At level 7, you can deliver touch spells with thrown weapons. Activate Thunderous Throw to make all your thrown attacks count as melee.

At level 16, you can deliver full channeled attacks. This means you cast once, attack 4 times, and have that spell effect all targets.

At level 18, you can deliver full channeled thrown attacks. Hooray.

At level 20, you get mastery of shaping, the main use of which is to make a doughnut-shaped anti-magic field around yourself. Enjoy.


Edited: Added a level 20 dip into archmage, as every build should have a cool capstone ability - in this case mastery of shaping.

Draz74
2008-02-07, 07:06 PM
Yeah, But I Get More Actions Than You

Name: Ownage Link
Build: Human Factotum 8/Warblade 12//Wizard (PHB II Variant Conjurer) 1/Swiftblade 10/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1
Starting Abilities: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 8
Cheese Points: 0!
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Breaks: Level 8 (Cunning Surge & Sudden Casting), Level 15 (can wear nonmagical armor), Level 16 (Perpetual Options)

Human

Level 1: Wizard 1 // Factotum 1 -- (Trapfinding, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge), Scribe Scroll, Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606), Dodge
Level 2: Wizard 2 // Factotum 2
Level 3: Wizard 3 // Factotum 3 -- (Cunning Defense, Brains Over Brawn), Mobility
Level 4: Wizard 4 // Factotum 4
Level 5: Wizard 5 // Factotum 5 -- (Opportunistic Piety), Quicken Spell
Level 6: Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 1 // Factotum 6 -- (Swift Surge +1/+0 ft), Spring Attack, Arcane Strike
Level 7: Swiftblade 2 // Factotum 7 -- (Blurred Alacrity)
Level 8: Swiftblade 3 // Factotum 8 -- (Cunning Surge, Sudden Casting)
Level 9: Swiftblade 4 // Warblade 1 -- (Arcane Reflexes, Swift Surge +1/+10 ft, Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude), Font of Inspiration
Level 10: Swiftblade 5 // Warblade 2 -- (Evasive Celerity, Uncanny Dodge)
Level 11: Swiftblade 6// Warblade 3 -- (Fortified Hustle, Battle Ardor)
Level 12: Swiftblade 7 // Warblade 4 -- (Swift Surge +2/+10 ft), Bounding Assault, Font of Inspiration
Level 13: Swiftblade 8 // Warblade 5 -- (Diligent Rapidity), Iron Will
Level 14: Dragonslayer 1 // Warblade 6 -- (Aura of Courage, Improved Uncanny Dodge)
Level 15: Spellsword 1 // Warblade 7 -- (Channel Spell 1/day, Reduce Arcane Spell Failure, Battle Cunning), Font of Inspiration
Level 16: Swiftblade 9 // Warblade 8 -- (Perpetual Options)
Level 17: Swiftblade 10 // Warblade 9 -- (Innervated Speed, Swift Surge +2/+20 ft), Improved Initiative
Level 18: Wizard 6 // Warblade 10 -- Font of Inspiration
Level 19: Wizard 7 // Warblade 11 -- (Battle Skill)
Level 20: Wizard 8 // Warblade 12

Maneuvers Known:
L9: Hunter's Sense, Claw at the Moon, Insightful Strike, Wall of Blades
L10: Mountain Hammer
L11: Douse the Flames
L12: Tactics of the Wolf, Death from Above instead of Claw at the Moon
L13: Pouncing Charge
L14: Emerald Razor instead of Douse the Flames
L15: Greater Insightful Strike
L16: Rapid Counter instead of Insightful Strike
L17: Iron Heart Surge
L18: Dancing Blade Form, Swooping Dragon Strike instead of Death from Above
L19: Quicksilver Motion
L20: Diamond Nightmare Blade instead of Rapid Counter

Typical Maneuvers Readied: Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Greater Insightful Strike, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Swooping Dragon Strike

Skills: Better than your normal Gish. He can have up to 11 ranks in a boatload of skills. Skills that he needs more than 11 ranks in, to be useful, are trickier, unless they happen to be Warblade skills or casting-related skills. Also, whenever a skill check needs to be really good, throw in a Cunning Knowledge. Like when you're making a Jump or Concentration check as part of a maneuver.

Defenses: Good saves. Slightly better than a d10 Hit Die, overall, and starts with 12 CON. Eventually can wear armor without messing up his spellcasting; until then, just use (Greater) Mage Armor. Can teleport away from dangerous attacks whenever he doesn't need his immediate action for anything else.

Offense: BAB +18. 8th-level maneuvers, 8th-level spells. Most importantly, between Cunning Surge and Swiftblade abilities, you'll be getting more actions than anyone else. 2 spells and a strike needed all at the same time? No problem. (3 spells, if you add a Quicken!)

Weaknesses: No 9th-level spells or maneuvers. AC not great, especially at low levels. Staple combat feats, such as Power Attack, aren't really needed with maneuvers available, but they would have been nice.

Swooper
2008-02-07, 07:24 PM
You're right, you can't cast spells while raging. But, you either cast them before hand (to soften opponent up) or you end your rage prematurely (which a Barb can do), cast your spell, and then Instantaneous Rage.As pointed out - only one rage per encounter.

You gain a bonus to all your attack rolls for 1 round, equal to the spell level and you gain a bonus of xd4 damage.

The feat does say, in the example, when talking about "Yarren": "Yarren gains an extra +4 bonus on his attack rolls and an extra 4d4 points of damage with a single melee weapon of his choice (his rapier).

Doesn't say "a single attack". It specifically says "single weapon". Which to me, means, for the entire round--with that weapon.. So you're not burning 4x 9th level spells per round. You spend one the first round, one the second, etc.
Ah, thanks. That makes much more sense now. I didn't bother looking it up, guess I always misunderstood the feat then. Sorry about that.

I was just using Bastard Sword as an example, if you look at the feats, I didn't actually build one with that particuar Exotic Weapon Proficiency.True - but why not simply use a longsword in your example then?:smallconfused:

When you take the Incantatrix PRC, you become a Specialist wizard in Abjuration (look at the PRC). Therefore, you need to take 2x banned schools. Plus, the PRC says you need to take one extra banned school (3x total). Can't take Divination or Universal as banned schools, according to rules.Hmm, never played in FR so I wasn't terribly familiar with the Incantatrix. However, page 32 in Magic of Faerûn says: "A bard or sorcerer who becomes an incantatrix must still choose a prohibited school to gain the benefits of specialization."(Emphasis mine) This assumably applies to warmages as well, so you wouldn't need to give up three whole schools, merely one.

I've only spent roughly 653k with those items (not including Starmantle cloak).
I don't know what other kind of "utility" stuff you would want. Boots of Speed, sure, that's cool. Ioun Stones? Sure, why not.

But seriously, what else would you need if you're trying to kill your opponents as quickly as possible?
Well, there's the fact that you're spending 86% of your lvl 20 WBL on AC (or did that include a weapon? And what about stat boosters?). Just pointing out that you're relying a lot on items there.

Edit: and what's that about taking two feats? I'm confused...sorry.Well, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are regarded as weak feats for anyone, so NOT taking them is hardly a weakness now is it? :smallwink:

Reinboom
2008-02-07, 08:18 PM
Oh, and is there a PrC I should be dipping to get heavy armor proficiency? It's such a waste of a feat. :smallfrown: I'd rather not use a base class, because I am trying to keep this build to 0 "cheese points."

Dragonslayer of the Draconomicon (p. 126)

Prereqs:
Dodge (check), Iron Will, Tumble 2 Ranks, BAB +5
Has full BAB, and first level improves caster level and every odd level after.
Gives proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, all armor, shields, and tower shields.
Not to mention the free immunity to fear, and +4 aura against fear they provide.
This is a GREAT PrC for Gishes.

Annarrkkii
2008-02-07, 08:19 PM
Name: "Ursa Mager"
Build: Human Sorcerer 14 / Rage Mage 6 // Barbarian 1 / Duskblade 5 / Bear Warrior 5 / Warblade 6 / Warshaper 3
Starting Ability Scores: STR 14, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 8, CHA 16
Cheese Points: 1 Multiclass Penalty (optional +10 for Warshaper)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1, not particularly effective until ECL 5
Power Break:

Human:
1: Sorcerer 1 // Barbarian 1 Eschew Materials, Extra Rage {Rage 1/day, Metamagic Specialist}
2: Sorcerer 2 // Duskblade 1 {Armored Mage (light), arcane attunement}
3: Sorcerer 3 // Duskblade 2 Extended Rage {Combat Casting}
4: Sorcerer 4 // Duskblade 3 {Arcane Channeling}
5: Rage Mage 1// Duskblade 4 {Spell Rage 1/day, Armored Mage (medium}
6: Rage Mage 2 // Duskblade 5 Arcane Strike {Overcome Spell Failure, Quick Cast 1/day}
7: Rage Mage 3 // Warblade 1 {Rage 4/day, Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude}
8: Rage Mage 4 // Bear Warrior 1 Arcane Strike {Bear Form (black)}
9: Sorcerer 5 // Warshaper 1 {Morphic immunities, morphic weapons}
10: Sorcerer 6 // Warblade 2 (Uncanny Dodge)
11: Sorcerer 7 // Bear Warrior 2
12: Sorcerer 8 // Bear Warrior 3 Extend Spell {Scent}
13: Sorcerer 9 // Bear Warrior 4
14: Sorcerer 10 // Bear Warrior 5 {Bear Form (brown}
15: Rage Mage 5 // Warblade 3 Quicken Spell {Battle ardor (criticals), Spell Rage 2/day}
16: Sorcerer 11 // Warshaper 2 {Morphic body}
17: Rage Mage 6 // Warshaper 3 {Morphic reach}
18: Sorcerer 12 // Warblade 4 Defensive Sweep
19: Sorcerer 13 // Warblade 5 {Combat Reflexes}
20: Sorcerer 14 // Warblade 6 {Improved Uncanny Dodge}

Offense

The Ursa Mager's greatest strength comes when it novas, as is readily apparent. When the build rages at 20th level, its base stats rise to 34 STR and 24 CON without any magic augmentation, and it gains natural weapons in the form of two claws and a bite, with base damages of 2d6 and 2d8 respectively. Most DMs will not allow you sequential attacks from BAB when using natural weapons, but Dancing Mongoose and burning a 9th level spell slot will give you an attack routine of five attacks, each one with an attack bonus in the high twenties after magical enhancements, and burning a 9th level spell slot will tack on another 45d4 damage. Morphic reach and large size gives it 15 ft. reach, and if your choice of maneuvers includes Dancing Blade Form that reach can increase to the slightly ridiculous 20 ft. on your turn. That kind of reach makes Defensive Sweep particularly useful. Likewise, Tactics of the Wolf makes an excellent exploit for your massive reach, as well. Twice per day, your 14-round-long rages can include spellcasting, thanks to the inclusion of Rage Mage and the Metamagic Specialist variant, which means you can enhance a full-attack routine with a Quickened spell—anything from a fireball to some Glitterdust.

Though the character will always be a nova build at the core, how you choose your maneuvers and spell list can actually change the character significantly, and result in significant staying power. If you focus around blasting magic and White Raven maneuvers, you can still contribute greatly to the combat even after your rage has run out—even possibly trading out Extended Rage for another Metamagic Feat, if you feel comfortable enough raging away at the front lines for 8 or so rounds and then falling back and blasting away while fatigued. Alternatively, you can weight your maneuvers more toward heavy damage dealers, a la Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon, and choose largely buff spells to further enhance combat effectivity, even when you're out of Spell Rages and have to fall back and your two extra plain old rages.

The rough-draft maneuver list I have in front of me prominently features Death From Above, Iron Heart Surge, and Tactic of the Wolf, along with some low-level gems like Douse the Flames, to buy you a free Quickened Spell without worrying about Defensive Casting, and Punishing Stance, when you really need that extra d6. Its wise to make sure you have all your bases covered when it comes to spell-selection, but this build focuses most on buffs and/or blasting spell—leave the utility spells to your party's batman.

When it comes to equipment, a good Cloak of Resistance, some solid armor, an attack booster, and a reasonable weapon, preferably of some special material, for when your claws don't cut it any more. A ranged weapon is always good to have to, however, when the enemies far away and you don't want to waste any more precious Scorching Rays.

Defense

This build, especially when raging, has a massive amount of hitpoints—thanks to numerous d12 HD—and can wear medium armor with no danger of spell failure. +5 Mithral Full Plate (probably have to be Wild, as well, depending on the DM). Alternatively, Greater Mage Armor will serve just as well, especially if you Extend it. A small (+5) Natural Armor bonus from Bear Form can help out, as can the Shield spell, and whatever other defensive magic you care to add on for flavor.

Weaknesses

Rage and Spell Rage result in regrettable AC damage, and the Reflex save lags FAR behind otherwise impressive Will and Fortitude saves. Most Reflex effects are damage-dealers, meaning that its immense hit point total can soak up the damage, but the transition from Rage back into normal mode can result in more than a 100 hit points vanishing in the blink of an eye, making this a healer-dependent build. Diamond Mind maneuvers can help with any saves you feel really need the boost, as can Cloaks of Resistance.

Also, if Warshaper makes you feel too dirty inside because of its Druid/Wildshape cheese associations, you can replace it with another three levels of Warblade for additional staying power, though you lose out on increased natural weapon damage and increased reach.

NOTE: Might come back and edit flavor text a bit more if I feel like changing the feats or actually statting out suggested maneuvers and spells.

Zincorium
2008-02-07, 08:24 PM
A bit of a fix, after some thinking, previous entry withdrawn.


Name: Gatling Secondus (Now with 9th level spells!)
Build: Cleric of Wee Jas 3/Paladin 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/ Geomancer +6//Sorceror 3/Geomancer 4/Sorceror +13
Starting Ability Scores: STR 14, DEX 10, CON 10, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 18
Cheese Points: 1 (Multiclassing Penalty)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1, but 7 is where it picks up speed
Power Break: Level 9 for Battle blessing use, level 20 for Nova

Uses Divine Magician variant
Geomancer Switches advancing sorceror casting to advancing cleric casting at level 5 (this is well in line with what the prestige class was intended to do.)

Lesser Aasimar
1: Sorcerer 1 // Cleric 1: Martial study (Crusader's strike) [martial weapon proficiency: falchion, weapon focus: falchion] {Turn undead, mind domain}
2: Sorcerer 2 // Cleric 2:
3: Sorcerer 3 // Cleric 3: Martial Stance (Martial spirit)
4: Geomancer 1 // Paladin 1: {aura of good, detect evil, smite evil, drift, spell versatility 0}
5: Geomancer 2 // Paladin 2: {Divine grace, Lay on hands, Drift, spell versatility 1, ley lines +1}
6: Geomancer 3 // Paladin 3: Divine spirit {Aura of courage, divine health, drift, spell versatility 2}
7: Geomancer 4 // Paladin 4: {Drift, spell versatility 3}
8: Sorcerer 4 // Geomancer 5: {Drift, spell versatility 4}
9: Sorcerer 5 // RKV 1: Battle Blessing
10: Sorcerer 6 // Geomancer 6: {Drift, Ley lines +2, spell versatility 5}
11: Sorcerer 7 // RKV 2: {divine recovery}
12: Sorcerer 8 // Geomancer 7: Extra Turning {drift, spell versatility 6}
13: Sorcerer 9 // RKV 3:
14: Sorceror 10//Geomancer 8: {drift, spell versatility 7}
15: Sorcerer 11 // RKV 4: Extra Turning
16: Sorcerer 12 // Geomancer 9: {drift, spell versatility 8}
17: Sorcerer 13 // RKV 5: {armored stealth}
18: Sorcerer 14 // Geomancer 10: Extra Turning {drift, Ley lines +3, spell versatility 9}
19: Sorcerer 15 // RKV 6:
20: Sorcecer 16// RKV 7: {divine impetus}

Offense

The ultimate Nova: 17+ charisma modifier spells (more with nightsticks) in the first round of combat, manuevers and Codzilla-style destruction afterwards, up to 6 natural weapons, 17 BAB (enough for all iterative attacks), 20th level sorceror and 14th level cleric spellcasting.

Defense

Good saves due to divine grace, martial stances, lots of good defensive spells.

Weaknesses

Much less dangerous after round one, weakened without night sticks, a bit lower BAB and hit points than the typical Gish, some problems at the beginning with wearing armor.

Duke of URL
2008-02-07, 09:48 PM
Duke, you wanna give me a ruling on this?

Not particularly, no. :smallbiggrin:

Anything open to interpretation is just that.

Draz74
2008-02-07, 11:08 PM
Dragonslayer of the Draconomicon (p. 126). Prereqs:
Dodge (check), Iron Will, Tumble 2 Ranks, BAB +5
Has full BAB, and first level improves caster level and every odd level after.
Gives proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, all armor, shields, and tower shields.
Not to mention the free immunity to fear, and +4 aura against fear they provide.
This is a GREAT PrC for Gishes.

Thanks! Um, improves just caster level, or gives a whole +1 Spellcasting level? I could look it up myself in my friend's Draconomicon, but not right at this moment.

If it gives a whole +1 spellcasting level, that's not too bad. It still requires wasting a feat, but Iron Will is a much better waste of a feat than Armor Proficiency, especially when you get an odd fear immunity in the bargain.

Reinboom
2008-02-07, 11:28 PM
Sorry, Full spellcaster level.
Oh! And you deal extra damage to dragons equal to your dragonslayer level.
So, if your build ever faces a dragon, it'll be getting a free +1 bonus! :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-08, 12:15 AM
I'm a little confused as to the above build ^^^

The rules are for "arcanists". Yes, Divine isn't disallowed...but from what I'm reading, it's supposed to be a main focus (like a 50/50 split).

Am I right in thinking most of the above classes are divine?

Actually, no.

The Paladin is technically Divine, in that he gets turn attempts. However, he only gets a single 1st level Paladin spell, probably Bless Weapon or somesuch which he will use in the event he runs up against somethign Evil. However, Crusader is not a spellcasting class in the slightest, it is similar to the Warblade, only with a more 'holy warrior' aspect. It's more tank than divine. Pal4 is for the turn undead feature to use DMM Chain for Mind Blank to buff the whole party. Oh yea, my primary casting stat to all resists, and immunity to fear and diseases aren't bad either.

On the other side...

Sorcerer... obvious
SpellSword... one level dip so he can wear Mithral Chain Shirt without ASF. Perfectly reasonable for this character, actually.
AbChamp... five level PrC that lets him drop low-level abjuration spells as swift actions, grant AC bonuses on abjuration spells (like Shield), and a few other nifty little tricks. Since Abjuration Champions are all about buffs, this is right up his alley
War Weaver... really nifty PrC. Lets me load up to level 4 spells in a 'weave', up to four in the weave. As a move action, I can dump ALL the spells in the weave on my entire party. Voila, insta-buff. It also lets me buff GMW and MV on the whole party without blowing all my 3rd level spells for the day. Again, the flavor on this is just perfect, being a follower of Mystara, and calling Magic both the Weave and the Art.

Sadly, I will be unable to finish my build, as I am going to IkkiCon this weekend. If the contest is still open after, I may be able to finish it on monday.

Shadow Mask
2008-02-08, 01:55 AM
(apologies now if a similar build has already been entered - I haven't read every post thoroughly)

Name: "Mean, Green, Argent Machine"
Build: (Lawful Good) Halfling Sorcerer* 11/(Ex)Paladin 5/Monk 9/Green Star Adept 10/Argent Savant 5
Starting Ability Scores: STR 8, DEX 16, CON 8, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 16
Finishing Ability Scores (no items): STR 14, DEX 14 (8th increase), CON -, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 20 (4,12,16,20th increases)
Cheese Points: 1 (Juggling Monk and Sorcerer levels)
Minimum Playable Level:1
Power Break: At 15th level this build increases moderately in HP and gains most construct immunities.

*Variant Sorcerer (PHB2) that has no familiar and instead has no casting time increase with metamagic spells. Thanks again to Chronos for this.

Halfling:
1: Sorc 1 // Pal 1: Combat Casting
2: Sorc 2 // Pal 2:
3: Sorc 3 // Pal 3: Silent Spell
4: Sorc 4 // Pal 4:
5: Sorc 5 // Pal 5:
6: Sorc 6 // GSA 1: Monastic Training (Sorc)
7: Monk 1 // GSA 2: Stunning Fist
8: Sorc 7 // GSA 3:
9: Monk 2 // GSA 4: Still Spell, Deflect Arrows
10: Sorc 8 // GSA 5:
11: Monk 3 // GSA 6:
12: Sorc 9 // GSA 7: Arcane Strike
13: Monk 4 // GSA 8:
14: Sorc 10 // GSA 9:
15: Monk 5 // GSA 10: Quicken Spell
16: Sorc 11 // Arg Sav 1:
17: Monk 6 // Arg Sav 2: Improved Trip
18: Monk 7 // Arg Sav 3: Innate Spell (Shield)
19: Monk 8 // Arg Sav 4:
20: Monk 9 // Arg Sav 5:

Offense:
- In the spell department, this build casts spells as a 20th lvl Sorcerer. This means powerful spells like Disintegrate, Summon Elemental Monolith and Absorption etc. The build gets increased damage with force spells, like Orb of Force and (good old) Magic Missile, which are also potent against incorporeal and ethereal creatures. This build can also use spells like Eagle's Splendor to increase spell DCs, while using spells like Fist of Stone, Heroism and Tenser's Transformation to boost melee abilities. Also, Quicken Spell allows this build to cast 2 spells in a round, or cast a spell and attack, quite a few times a day.
- In the melee department, this build has decent unarmed combat (+15 bab, flurry of blows) - especially when using spell buffs. This includes abilities like Stunning Fist, Arcane Strike(esp), Improved Trip and Smite Evil. These abilities are increased if magic items like an Amulet of Natural Attack etc are used.

Defense:
- Innate Spell (Shield), Greater Mage Armour and Argent Savant means +14 to AC almost 24/7. Combine this with natural armour (from GSA), Dex, Wis, Size and Monk bonuses gives 36 AC without magic items.
- Monk, Palading and Halfling means all saves are of a good standard without magic items. The saves department includes Improved Evasion.
- As a construct, this build can repair itself, along with Wholeness of Body.
- Green Star Adept provides most construct immunities (plus fear from Paladin), as well as a highly appreciated DR 10/Adamantine.
- Magic like Fly and Fire Shield can be used to increase defenses or mobility (of which land speed is decent, thanks to Monk levels)

Weaknesses:
- Obviously, an Antimagic Field or Dead Magic area is anathema to this build.
- The touch (but not incorporeal touch) AC of this build is low, and HPs are pretty average (20d10+20), so "Orb of" spells and the like are quite dangerous.
- Spell DCs are quite low without magic items or an Eagle's Splendor spell.


This build is created using only books that I have available to me - it could probably be improved with stuff from other books.

Chronos
2008-02-08, 02:34 AM
Shadow Mask, I think you need to take Monastic Training before you go back into Monk. Swap that and Still Spell, and you should be OK.

Also, there's a class variant for the sorcerer in the PHB2 that lets you apply metamagic without increasing the casting time, in return for giving up your familiar. That would let you take advantage of Quicken Spell (very useful for buffing and then attacking in the same round).

Shadow Mask
2008-02-08, 03:23 AM
OK, thanks for the advice.

I have never read the PHB2, and since I am not using my familiar (at all) that will be very useful, so thanks again.

Duke of URL
2008-02-08, 07:49 AM
Sadly, I will be unable to finish my build, as I am going to IkkiCon this weekend. If the contest is still open after, I may be able to finish it on monday.

You're in luck. The deadline is Tuesday, noon PST, as indicated in post #1.

expirement10K14
2008-02-08, 02:36 PM
Okay, I have come up with a basic idea, and I'm going to drop the whole Illithid/Alhoon idea and go with something more basic.
Race: Human
Class: Wizard 20*//Soul Knife 20
Important feats/Spells-
Sacred Vow
Vow Of Poverty
Weapon Finesse (Buffing Dex/int)
Mage Armor

*PRC's most likely to be put in.

It's simple, and should work well, Soul Blade is technically not an item worth money, so it falls within vow of poverty. More in depth to come.

Edit: Dusk blade instead of wizard may work better....

Draz74
2008-02-08, 02:47 PM
Class: Wizard 20*//Soul Knife 20

Vow Of Poverty


Beware, you can't own a spellbook with Vow of Poverty.

Duke of URL
2008-02-08, 02:47 PM
Wizard with VOP is pretty hard, since you can't own a spellbook or spell components.

Frosty
2008-02-08, 02:53 PM
You can take Eschew materials, or pay EXP. you can also tatoo spells into your skin.

expirement10K14
2008-02-08, 03:00 PM
I edited in a note, saying I was going to look at Duskblade, as I realized quickly I would have trouble with a wizard and VOP.

I'm thinking-
Duskblade 20/ Soulknife 20 with some created feats.

Edit: And I don't understand, does VOP give only exalted feats, or any, it seems to indicate both to me?

TheMeanDM
2008-02-08, 03:07 PM
"You may carry and use a spell component pouch."


Doesn't mention owning, or *not* owning a spellbook, so that'd be DM's call.

However, to get around it, just use a Sorcerer.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-08, 03:09 PM
I edited in a note, saying I was going to look at Duskblade, as I realized quickly I would have trouble with a wizard and VOP.

I'm thinking-
Duskblade 20/ Soulknife 20 with some created feats.

Edit: And I don't understand, does VOP give only exalted feats, or any, it seems to indicate both to me?

Yes, only Exalted Feats:

Bonus Exalted Feats: At 1st level, an ascetic gets a bonus
exalted feat, and another bonus feat at 2nd level and every 2
levels thereafter.

Reinboom
2008-02-08, 03:35 PM
Steroids (work in progress)
Build: Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/Cleric 5//Duskblade 13/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Abjurant Champion 5
Starting Ability Scores: Str 8, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14
Cheese Points: 3 multiclassing, should be more for planar shepherd.
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: 10 (planar bubble), 11 (bite of the werebear), 15 (all Su and Ex abilities AND full attack spell of duskblade), 19 (Righteous Might)


Human [Combat Casting]
Lv: Class 1 // Class 2
1 : Druid // Duskblade [Greensinger Initiate]
2 : Druid // Duskblade
3 : Druid // Cleric [Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric)]
4 : Druid // Sorcerer
5 : Druid // Duskblade
6 : Planar Shepherd(d) // Duskblade [Natural Spell]
7 : Planar Shepherd(d) // Duskblade
8 : Planar Shepherd(d) // Duskblade
9 : Planar Shepherd(d) // Duskblade [Quicken Spell]
10: Planar Shepherd(d) // Duskblade
11: Planar Shepherd(d) // Duskblade
12: Planar Shepherd(c) // Duskblade [Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell)]
13: Planar Shepherd(c) // Duskblade
14: Planar Shepherd(c) // Duskblade
15: Planar Shepherd(c) // Duskblade [Power Attack]
16: Cleric // Abjurant Champion(s)
17: Cleric // Abjurant Champion(s)
18: Cleric // Abjurant Champion(s) [Extra Turning]
19: Cleric // Abjurant Champion(s)
20: Cleric // Abjurant Champion(s)

Likes to pump wisdom. Doesn't need to though.
(d) = advances druid
(c) = advances cleric
(s) = advances sorcerer


Offense:
Wild Shape at the beginning of the day.
Round 1: Quickened Righteous Might, Bite of the Werebear
Round 2: Swift +9 Shield, attack. Or buff more and wait to attack. Your choice.
This thing gets big, fast. It is loaded with buffs and utility. Also, the quickened ability of the duskblade has no prejudice against type of spellcaster it quickens for.
If it gets caught in a crowd, it can throw down its planar bubble - which - suddenly is doing negative planar effects to the enemy.
It also has incredible utility potential from the forms it can take - since - it gains all Su and Ex abilities.

If you have a mean DM, it can utilize range and (Dream) bubble (10:1 rounds) for gaming breakyness.

Defense:
Choose a buff. Choose a utility. Most of the offensive power also pumps the defensive. Oh, and it gets a lot of healing spells. A LOT.

Weakness:
It has poor reflexes, a bit hurting on the HP, and becomes a weak tank in an antimagic situation.

expirement10K14
2008-02-08, 05:07 PM
WITHDRAWN. SOME GLARING WEAKNESSES FOUND.

Name: Poor Man
Build: Duskblade 20/ Soulknife 20
Starting Ability Scores: STR 8, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 10, CHA 12
Cheese Points: None that I see
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1
Power Break: Level 2-3 Arcane Channeling and Quick Cast, 19- +2 to 4 stats, DR raised


Human: {4 SP at 1st, 1 after, 1 bonus feat at first}
1:Duskblade 1/ Soulknife 1: AC +4{Vow of Poverty, Sacred Vow, Servant of the heavens}
2:Duskblade 2/ Soulknife 2: {Nimbus Of Light}
3:Duskblade 3/ Soulknife 3: AC +5, Endure Elements{Weapon Finesse}
4:Duskblade 4/ Soulknife 4: +1 INT, ES +1 {Vow Of Abstinence}
5:Duskblade 5/ Soulknife 5: Sustenance
6:Duskblade 6/ Soulknife 6: AC +6, Deflection +1{Vow Of Chastity, Improved Toughness}
7:Duskblade 7/ Soulknife 7: +2 INT, Resistance +1
8:Duskblade 8/ Soulknife 8: +1 DEX, NA +1, Mind shielding {Touch of Golden Ice}
9:Duskblade 9/ Soulknife 9: AC +7 {Feat}
10:Duskblade 10/ Soulknife 10: ES +2, DR 5/magic {Sanctify Martial Strike}
11:Duskblade 11/ Soulknife 11: +2 INT, +2 DEX
12:Duskblade 12/ Soulknife 12: +1 DEX, AC +8, Deflection +2, Greater Sustenance {Quicken Spell, VOP}
13:Duskblade 13/ Soulknife 13: Resistance +2, Energy Resistance 5
14:Duskblade 14/ Soulknife 14: ES +3, Freedom of movement {VOP}
15:Duskblade 15/ Soulknife 15: +2 INT, +2 DEX, +2 WIS, AC +9, DR 5/evil {Weapon Focus (Touch Spell)}
16:Duskblade 16/ Soulknife 16: +1 INT, NA +1 {VOP}
17:Duskblade 17/ Soulknife 17: ES +4, Resistance +3, Regeneration
18:Duskblade 18/ Soulknife 18: AC +10, Deflection +3, True Seeing {Touch Spell Specialization, VOP}
19:Duskblade 19/ Soulknife 19: +2 INT, +2 DEX, +2 WIS, +2 CON, DR 10/Evil
20:Duskblade 20/ Soulknife 20: ES +5, Energy Resistance 15 {Gift of Faith}

Full BAB, All good saves

Offense-
With quick casting, arcane channeling and full BAB, what don't you have. The Soul Knife abilities make it so by level 20 you have a +9 weapon, free. If you use a full attack you have four attacks, plus the added bonus of arcane channeling of a touch spell, and Touch Spell Specialization gives the touch spell +2 damage. For magic you have quick class 3/day, and the quicken spell meta magic feat plus ten level 1,2 and 3 spells. With these bonuses combat could be a breeze. Against evil creatures you get +1d4 damage, and you can touch them and damage them with golden ice.

Defense-
Defense has some nice Vow of Poverty bonuses. +10 AC and +2 Natural Armor and +3 deflection by level 20, and damage reduction 10/evil. By level 20 you have a +5 from dexterity also. You also get +3 to all saves, and you have the highest progression in all saves. For added defense a Mage Armor Wand can be bought.

Weaknesses-
Anti Magic fields could block your ability to use the Mind blade if you can't make a concentration check, and you lose all magic, including arcane channeling. Only 6 levels of spells.


Notes: Need to find more exalted feats. Anyone know a book that has them besides book of exalted deeds?

avr
2008-02-08, 09:31 PM
Hi; I thought I'd try posting an entry here.

Name: Elven heavy artillery
Classes: Binder 6/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Arcane Archer 9 // Sorc. 20
Starting ability scores: Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 15 (level ups into Cha)
Cheese points: Possibly 1 for ignoring multiclassing penalties. If it's a problem the character still works as a half elf.
Minimum playable level: 1
Power break: at Level 11 permanent DR 10/magic; at Level 13, Imbue arrow allows her area effect spells to have a really long range.

Elf:
1: Binder 1 // Sorcerer 1: Soul binding (1 vestige), Point Blank shot
2: Binder 2 // Sorcerer 2: Pact augmentation (1 ability), suppress sign
3: Binder 3 // Sorcerer 3: Rapid shot
4: Binder 4 // Sorcerer 4: Bonus feat (Improved Binding)
5: Binder 5 // Sorcerer 5: Pact augmentation (2 abilities)
6: Binder 6 // Sorcerer 6: Soul guardian (immune to fear), Weapon focus (longbow)
7: Knight of the Sacred Seal 1 // Sorcerer 7: Aligned strike, Patron vestige (Leraje)
8: KoSS 2 // Sorcerer 8: Soul binding (2 vestiges), vestige's protection
9: KoSS 3 // Sorcerer 9: Far shot, vestige's protection aura
10: KoSS 4 // Sorcerer 10: Vestige's power
11: KoSS 5 // Sorcerer 11: Apotheosis (native outsider, DR 10/magic), vestige's surge (1/day)
12: Arcane Archer 1 // Sorcerer 12: Quick Draw, enhance arrow +1
13: AA 2 // Sorcerer 13: Imbue spell
14: AA 3 // Sorcerer 14: Enhance arrow +2
15: AA 4 // Sorcerer 15: Manyshot, seeker arrow (1/day)
16: AA 5 // Sorcerer 16: Enhance arrow +3
17: AA 6 // Sorcerer 17: Phase arrow (1/day)
18: AA 7 // Sorcerer 18: Ignore Special Requirements, enhance arrow +4
19: AA 8 // Sorcerer 19: Hail of arrows (1/day)
20: AA 9 // Sorcerer 20: Enhance arrow +5

Important items: a bow with the distance and seeking qualities

Offence: The ability to drop any area spell known to this 20th level sorcerer anywhere her bow can shoot (within 2750') sounds good. Base Attack 18, pact augmentations, the KoSS ability vestige's power, the abilities from the second vestige she's bound (anything up to 6th level, Balam or Paimon aren't bad) and from whatever buffs she has up should make her effective with a bow and to some extent in melee also.

Defence: Where possible, being half a mile away from her enemy will help. DR 10/magic is still useful at 20th level against summoned creatures and against some psionic powers. The vestige's protection ability adds her Cha bonus to AC and reflex saves for 1 round in every 5; the vestige's protection aura ability make it likely that she'll have a friend within 5' to take advantage of this, and it's often useful to have friends nearby in a fight. :smallwink:

Weaknesses: No melee focused feats other than ones gained via pacts. So-so strength.

I like the flavour of the arcane archer and it matches well with a binder who usually binds Leraje. It takes gestalt to make an arcane archer work mechanically though IMO.

Gralamin
2008-02-08, 10:10 PM
Is Jade Phoenix Mage allowed?

Squash Monster
2008-02-09, 02:31 AM
Isn't Jade Phoenix Mage a dual-progression class? It progresses martial adept and arcane caster.


Also, if it's not too much trouble, could somebody critique the build I posted?

TheMeanDM
2008-02-09, 09:35 AM
Name: Poor Man
Build: Duskblade 20/ Soulknife 20
With quick casting, arcane channeling and full BAB, what don't you have.

For magic you have quick class 3/day, and the quicken spell meta magic feat plus ten level 1,2 and 3 spells.

Well, what don't you have?

6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, for starters.

And any 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spells you want to use with channeling??
Use em...go ahead....me and my Spell Turning, or Ring of Spell Turning...will laugh at you for awhile as your extra spell does no effect...but instead..affects you.

So vs. 1 single target with Spell Turning or Spell Immunity, it won't do much.

expirement10K14
2008-02-09, 10:13 AM
Yeah, I'm starting to notice some glaring weaknesses, back to the drawing board, but I'll be back. I swear it.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-09, 11:10 AM
Name: Faeries Die With Their Boots On

Premise: A charging, raging, crazed caster that charges head-long into his foes. He's slightly crazy, to be certain, from his years spent among the wild.

Cheese: 3 or 4 (not sure, being there are 6 total classes)

The background would actually be pretty easy to come up with: Barbarian/Druid protecting the wild, does some trade with the Warmages of Tarth Moordra (from CA book). Trains with them to better protect the forest (Warmage/Nature's Warrior/Abjurant Champ). Befriends the fey (wild soul) that live in his forest (seelie or unseelie, your choice).

Base Stats:
Str: 9
Dex: 9
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 16

Stats at 20th Level:
Str: 9 (15)
Dex: 9
Con: 12 (18)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 20 (26)

HP (if averaged): 131
HP (with +6 item + shaped/raging): 211


{table=header] Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Class 3 | Class 4 | Class 5 | Class 6 | BAB | HD | Class Features
1 | Barbarian | Druid | - | - | - | - | 1 | d12 | Rage, Fast Movement, Wild Emp. Animal Comp. Nature Sense
2 | Barbarian | Druid | - |- | - | - | 2 | d12 | Uncanny Dodge, Woodland Stride
3 | - | Druid | Warmage | - | - | - | 3 | d8 | Trackless Step, Warmage Edge, Armored Mage (light)
4 | - | Druid | Warmage | - | - | - | 4 | d8 | Resist Nature's Lure
5 | - | Druid | - | Wild Soul | - | - | 4 | d8 | Wildshape 1/day, (Un)Seelie Courtier, Spontaneous Spells 1-3
6 | - | - | Warmage | - | - | Nature's Warrior | 5 | d10 | Advanced Learning, Nature's Armament, Wilding
7 | - | - | Warmage | - | - | Nature's Warrior | 6/1 | d10 |
8 | - | Druid | - | - | Abjurant Champ | - | 7/2 | d10 | Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration
9 | - | - | Warmage | - | - | Nature's Warrior | 8/3 | d10 | Nature's Armament
10 | Barbarian | - | - | - | Abjurant Champ | - | 9/4 | d12 | Trap Sense +1, Swift Abjuration
11 | Barbarian | - | - | - | Abjurant Champ | - | 10/5 | d12 | Rage 2/day
12 | Barbarian | - | - | - | Abjurant Champ | - | 11/6 | d12 | Improved Uncanny Dodge, Arcane Boost
13 | Barbarian | - | - | - | Abjurant Champ | - | 12/7 | d12 | Trap Sense +2, Martial Arcanist
14 | Barbarian | Druid | - | - | - | - | 13/8 | d12 | Damage Reduction 1/-, Wild Shape 2/day
15 | Barbarian | Druid | - | - | - | - | 14/9 | d12 | Rage 3/day, Wild Shape 3/day
16 | Barbarian | - | - | Wild Soul | - | - | 15/10/5 | d12 | Trap Sense +3, (Un)Seelie Bond, Summon (Un)Seelie Ally, Immune to Sleep
17 | Barbarian | - | - | Wild Soul | - | - | 16/11/6/1 | d12 | Damage Reduction 2/-, Spontaneous Spells (4th)
18 | - | - | Warmage | Wild Soul | - | - | 17/12/7/2 | d6 | Advanced Learning, (Un)Seelie Bond (+2 vs. Enchantments), Summon (Un)Seelie ally
19 | - | - | Warmage | Wild Soul | - | - | 17/12/7/2 | d6 | Sudden Empower, Spontaneous Spells (5th)
20 | - | - | Warmage | Wild Soul | - | - | 18/13/8/3 | d6 | Armored Mage (medium), (Un)Seelie Bond (Speed + 10 ft), Summon (Un)Seelie ally
[/table]



Break Points:
5th level, you gain WildShape and the Seelie Courtier. Meaning, you get to summon an ally during combat to help with flanking.
8th level, you get Megaraptor and Polar Bear for Wild Shape.
15th level, you get Rage 3x and Wild Shape 4x (due to Extra Wild Shape feat)
20th level, you get access to 9th level spells

Casts As:
9th Level Druid
18th Level Warmage

Shifts As:
11th Level Druid

Preferred Animal Form(s):
Megaraptor (8hd)
Polar Bear (8hd)

Feats:
Human Bonus:
1st: Instantaneous Rage
3rd: Animal Devotion
6th: Natural Spell
9th: Lion's Pounce
12th: Extra Wild Shape
15th: Improved Natural Attack: (claw/talon, your choice)
18th: Arcane Strike

Equipment:
As a Druid, you spend most of your "life" in animal form, so the heaviness of armor you're limited to doesn't really matter. Nor does it apply to Arcane Spell Failure either (I believe).

So go ahead, take that Wild Dragonhide Full Plate +5...it won't matter!

3,300 for the armor
400 for the heavy dragon hide shield
--May as well make that wild too!
*** Techinically, I don't believe you'd have to buy this, as using the Abjurant Champion Shield spell will give you a 7 AC, and block Magic Missile...but either way, it's up to you. DM would need to rule if you can use Shield spell scrolls as a Warmage. (Use Magic Device?)

With Nature's Armament (Armor of the Crocodile), you get +3 to Natural Armor when wild shaped. So, in Megaraptor form, you're automtically at 20 AC.

Add in the Wild +5 armor and shield, and you're now at: 41 AC

Throw on an Amulet of Natural Armor +6 combined with the amulet that gives +6 Con, plus a Wilding Clasp, and you're at 47 AC with 27 Con.

Other Magic Items:

Now, each DM may interpret this differently, but *if* you can use a Wilding Clasp with a Shirt as opposed to a Vest (really no difference in body slot)...then get yourself a Shirt of "Might": +6 Strength +6 Charisma.

Why? Because the extra Charisma will be nice, as will the extra +6 Strength, either in animal form or not.

How It Works:
Beginning of the Day, Wild Shape into Megaraptor form. Use Shield and any other abjuration "buff" spells that can last a long time (Abjurant Champ feature). Use Greater Magic Fang 2x to give your talons (or claws) +2 enhancement (alternately, you could pay for GMF +5 herbs--edible potions)

Combat:
A couple different things you can do:

1) Blast with AoE's as soon as you spot your opponent(s)
2)
-- Free Action: Charge your Talons (Megaraptor) with Arcane Strike
-- Immediate Action: enter Rage (Instantaneous Rage)
-- Swift Action: Animal Devotion (either Cheetah Speed or Ape's Fury--probably fury)
-- Charge (expending a Wild Shape --2x remaining for day) to Lion Pounce

Combat "stuff":
Stats: megaraptor form (+ items + rage)
Str: 21 (37)
Dex: 15
Con: 21 (31)
Int: (pc's)
Wis: (pc's)
Cha: 10 (16)

(assuming +5 GMF herb used)
To Hit (bab + str + GMF + Arcane Strike):
47/42/37/32

Damage:
2d8+18+9d4
2d8+18+9d4
2d8+18+9d4
2d8+18+9d4

Just to give an idea of the 1-round damage:
4d8+36d4+72=163 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1486871/)
163

That's with a lot of 1's.

4d8+36d4+72=178 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1486872/)
178 (not so many 1's this time).

Note:
Lion's Pounce can be used *without* needing to be in Wild Shape form, which is why I took that over Beastial Charge (which requires you shape first then charge).

Strengths:
Not totally reliant on Magic Items
High HP
High Damage
High BaB (almost full)
High To-Hit
Arcane AoE availability
Arcane Touch availability
Healing Availability
Ability to remove fatigue after rage
Ability to summon an ally before/during combat
Animal Companion (extra ally)
Strong Will and Fort saves

Weakness:
Can't cast when raged
Can't heal when raged
Can only rage 1x / encounter
Limited spell selection (Warmage)
-- this weakness could be "fixed" by taking Sorcerer
Not so strong Reflex save

wumpus
2008-02-09, 08:59 PM
How about a base level benchmark:

Wizard 20/Druid 20
(can be played at ECL 1, not an effective gish until ECL 5)

Advantages: both sides are essentially SAD. Not only that, by the terms of the contest, since only divine magic isn't considered as power (just crank up the buffs); high wisdom isn't important. Max Int, put about 15 into Wis, a bunch into Con (only useful for lower levels/caught in human form) and the rest into charisma (who knows, you might want to talk to somebody in human form).

Disadvantages: no DM in his right mind should allow natural spell to allow arcane magic (the feat description allows it, don't know about the errata).

improvements. - add PRC cheese Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, possibly steal Sweetrein's idea and go planar shepherd (that pocket plane Dal Quor can't be allowed, even if you aren't allowed to throw 10 arcane spells a round.

Somehow I think even the base build should be competitive (level 5+) in both this and the next theurge competition

Kristoss
2008-02-09, 10:12 PM
To shadow mask: Be carefull with the metamagic specialist variant as you can only use the metamagic ability 3 + Int Bonus times per day.

Chronos
2008-02-09, 10:48 PM
Hmm... Did we decide that the feats which allow different class features to stack are cheesy? Because if not, the Ascetic Mage (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ascetic_Mage,) feat looks very juicy, for anyone with both sorcerer and monk levels. I might have to squeeze a monk level into my build for this...

Annarrkkii
2008-02-09, 11:21 PM
Ascetic Mage IS juicy. I considered giving my Nymph Paladin 3/Crusader 4//Monk 3/Sorcerer 12/Abjurant Champion 5 a showing, but decided against it. It has mid-70s AC and high-20s on its saves, but it's not a particularly powerful melee combatant—just really tough—so it's not really a Gish.

Kristoss
2008-02-10, 12:15 AM
To TheMeanDM: You are missing a requirement of Abjurant Champion. The ability to cast at least one Abjuration spell.

Chronos
2008-02-10, 01:02 AM
To TheMeanDM: You are missing a requirement of Abjurant Champion. The ability to cast at least one Abjuration spell.No, he has abjurations from druid spellcasting. Even if he only had a 10 Wis, that would be enough for a Resistance. Unless AbjChamp specifically requires an arcane abjuration?

I've updated Snake on a Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3900143#post3900143), filling out the missing feats (Ascetic Mage, DMM: Quicken, and Mindsight), and (reluctantly) replacing the two Dragon Disciple levels with Monk. I also added a bit more about the possibilities opened up by Miracle, and added Bite of the Werebear to his spell list.

Behold_the_Void
2008-02-10, 01:04 AM
All right, let's see if I can get this to work.

Divine Chosen Avatar of Face-Smashing

Build: Human,
PHBII Variant Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 1/Sorcerer 2/Incantrix 10/Sorcerer 1//Fighter 1/Favored Soul 6/Sacred Exorcist 1/Favored Soul 12

Starting Ability Scores:
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 15
Alternative Starting Ability Scores:
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16 or Str 10 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 16 or Str 10 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16, depending on one's preference and how one messes with skills and the like.

Minimum Playable Level: With the proper spell selection, level 1. Limited effectiveness at low levels.

Power Break: Level 9 with Divine Metamagic.

Cheese Points: Possibly 3, I might be able to argue it down to 1 or even 0 since the way the build is internally consistent with the intent.

Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana 8, Knowledge (the Planes) 10, Knowledge (Religion) 7, Jump 8, other skill points can go elsewhere

Feats: Extend Spell (1st level), Persist Spell (Human), Power Attack (Fighter), Iron Will (3rd level), Improved Bullrush (6th level), Divine Metamagic (9), Reach Spell (Incantrix 1), Shock Trooper (12), Quicken Spell (Incantrix 4), Leap Attack (15), Heighten Spell (Incantrix 7), Sculpt Spell (18), Chain Spell (Incantrix 10)

Worthwhile Equipment: Since the ability scores are a bit low, Tomes aren't out of order, especially Charisma tomes.

Mithral Twilight Feycraft Fullplate, with Spellsword level Arcane Spell Failure is 0%

Greatsword with fun things on it.

Ability score boosting equipment (Gloves for Dex, Belt for Strength, DEFINITELY a cloak for Charisma).

Metamagic rods, scrolls and wands for extra utility, etc. etc. pretty standard stuff.

Night Sticks. Lots of Night Sticks.

Spell Selection: Divine side has the healing spells, buffs, and non-save utilities. I didn't invest anything in Wisdom because the offense comes from the Sorcerer side, which will have battlefield control, Shadow Conjuration/Evocations,

Cheese Points Explanation I agonized over how the best way to get Turn Undead and Charisma-reliant Divine Casting was. I eventually settled on a 1-level dip into Sacred Exorcist. To lower the cheese points, I could take Sacred Exorcist out to full, but I wanted wings and sweet, sweet Incantrix cheese (of course the former's not a HUGE issue with spells like Overland Flight). The Fighter and later Spellsword levels represent his devotion to martial training. If you'll note, the way his classes break down gives him full BAB at the end of his career (if fractional BAB is used, he'll be sitting at about 15 or 16, but can fortunately use Persisted Divine Metamagic to boost that up to 20). That, plus the power attack chain, represents how capable he is of vaporizing someone, especially when empowered by divine fervor.

Concept: Basically, he's a Sacred Warrior with powerful magic flowing through his veins, both Arcane and Divine. The Divine Side is mainly concerned with the buffs, the Arcane spells are his utility and offensive spells. No blasting here, if he wants to do damage he'll vaporize something with his sword. I worked pretty hard to get him mainly dependent on Charisma for his spells. On the Sorcerer side, lots of versatility. He's barred Evocation from Incantrix, but Shadow Evocation should easily make up for that. Lots of save-or-dies, touch or ranged-touch incapacitation spells, and, of course, Polymorph for even more crushing offensive power.

Another benefit is he casts as a 20th level Sorcerer and 19th level Favored Soul, always a plus.

Weaknesses: He's got a low(-ish) reflex save, and his hit points aren't the most robust. Anti-Magic fields hurt if he manages to get trapped in one, without his buffs while he's a competent fighter, he's definitely not the best. His wings do help mitigate this to some degree, but it's still not the preferred situation (ideally, he should have no trouble keeping himself from this situation with the spells he has access to, but if he manages to get hit by one it's going to hurt. A lot.) His buffs, healing and shapechanging should help with that though. I'm not the best or most creative optimizer out there, so most of his power relies on my current knowledge of what works well and what doesn't, I don't have a large enough lexicon of book knowledge to do anything better but overall I like how the build turned out. Since he's human, he doesn't have any exp penalties from his multiclassing either, always nice.

Squash Monster
2008-02-10, 03:57 AM
How about a base level benchmark:

Wizard 20/Druid 20
(can be played at ECL 1, not an effective gish until ECL 5)I was thinking Wizard 20//Fighter 20 as a benchmark. An unfortunately large number of builds that have been submitted are nowhere near as good as Wizard/Fighter, as they try to do too much and miss a lot of high notes (like level 9 spells)

Wizard 20//Druid 20 is a tempting benchmark, but I fear it's too good. It's the template for one of the best possible sets of Gestalt builds (just replace Wizard 20 with Wizard 5 / Prestige Class 10 / Prestige Class 5 or similar), right behind Druid 20//Cleric 20 and some sort of Artificer cheese. I'm not sure that near-perfection makes a good benchmark.

weenie
2008-02-10, 06:33 AM
Also, if it's not too much trouble, could somebody critique the build I posted?

Well, your build has a lot of similarities with mine. The idea of ranged arcane channeling is neat, but also highly situational, as it doesn't do you much good in close combat. Persistent wraithstrike is completely broken, but there are no reasons no to allow it. As for most gishes AMF is a hard blow for your character, as you can no longer benefit from wraithstrike(I think) and arcane channeling. Arcane strike still works though, so you're far from powerless. Due to a lack of Abjurant champion your AC is a bit lower than it could be, otherwise same as mine. Overall a strong build.

Edit: Whopsie, you can only use Arcane strike on melee weapons. This drastically decreases your damage potential I'm affraid. The build is still strong, but deals less damage and AMFs are devastating.

Ok, now someone do mine.

Squash Monster
2008-02-10, 11:52 AM
From its level 2 Bloodstorm Blade ability, my build can make thrown weapons count as melee. That's how ranged channeling is working, and it also allows Arcane Strike to work.

As for antimagic fields: well, it sucks for all gishes. However, in the case of mine you can stay outside the field and throw weapons into it. This allows you to retain the benefits of all your buffs against an AMFed opponent, much as orb spells can be cast into an AMF.

Though, that does make me realize that I missed a major possible feature. I'm going to edit the build to add one last scary capstone ability.

expirement10K14
2008-02-10, 12:01 PM
I'm not done with my character yet, but I have a question. How do I find the Armor Bonus for a level 30 monk? And no, my character is not over level 20, hes just 1337. Reread rule for gestalt, this does not apply. I had two classes giving bonuses at once.:smallbiggrin:

Edit 2: My revised Entry

Name: Poor Man Version 2
Build: LA 2/ Monk 3/ Enlightened Fist 10/ Tattooed Monk 5 //Sorcerer 12/ Rogue 8
Starting Ability Scores: STR 12, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA 16
Cheese Points: 1- Multi-classing
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1
Power Breaks: Level 4- Ascetic Mage, Level 6- Vow of poverty, 18- Weapon Finesse

Githzerai: Psionics, Inertial Armor, +6 DEX, -2 INT, +2 WIS, DV 60ft,
Stats After Racial Adjustment- STR 12, DEX 20, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 16


1:Level Adjustment 1/Sorcerer 1: Familiar {Sacred Vow}
2:Level Adjustment 2/Sorcerer 2
3:Monk 1/ Sorcerer 3: Flurry of Blows {Stunning Fist, Combat Caster}
4:Monk 2/Sorcerer 4: +1 CHA{Combat Reflexes, Ascetic Mage}
5:Monk 3/Sorcerer 5:
6:Enlightened Fist 1/Sorcerer 6: AC +6, Def. +1 {Vow Of Poverty, Knight of Stars}
7:EF 2/ Rogue 1: CHA +2
8:EF 3/ Rogue 2: +1 CHA, NA +1, Arcane Fists {Sanctify Natural Attack}
9:EF 4/ Rogue 3: AC +7 {Extra Stunning}
10:EF5/ Rogue 4: DR 5/magic {Vow of Abstinence}
11:EF 6/ Sorcerer 7 : +2 CHA, +2 DEX
12:EF 7/ Rogue 5: +1 CHA, Hold Ray, AC +8, Def. +2 {Exalted Spell Resistance, Fiery Burst}
13:EF 8/ Rogue 6:
14:EF 9/ Rogue 7: {Nimbus of light}
15:EF 10/ Rogue 8: AC +9, +2 CHA, +2 DEX, +2 CON {Improved Grapple}
16:Tattooed Monk 1/Sorcerer 8: +1 CHA, Crab Tattoo, NA +2 {Sacred Strike}
17:TM 2/Sorcerer 9
18:TM 3/Sorcerer 10: Nightingale Tattoo, AC+10, Def +3 {Stigmata, Weapon Finesse}
19:TM 4/Sorcerer 11: +2 CHA, +2 DEX, +2 CON, +2 WIS, DR 10/evil
20:TM 5/Sorcerer 12: +1 CHA, Bell Flower Tattoo {Holy Radiance}

Final Stats-
STR 12, DEX 26, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 29

Offense-
5 attacks per turn at 2d8+1d4 damage each. With 11 stunning fists a day you can use the enlightened fist abilities to deal touch spells through them 11 times a day, or use two uses to deal a ray through them. As long as you have a 9th level spell slot left and you have a 9th level fire spell you can cause a fiery burst that deals 9d6 damage on a target. You also have full casting, and your unarmed damage uses a modifier equal to BAB+5 (VOP), +8 (DEX), so you have a good chance of hitting each attack. And sneak attack +4d8 helps a bunch.

Defense-
Total AC by level 20-
10+ CHA Bonus (9) + DEX bonus (8) + NA (2) +Inertial armor (4) + Deflection (3) + VOP armor bonus (10) + Monk armor bonus (4) = 50
And you have DR 10/magic, and SR 25, 29 against evil creatures.. Saves are good, especially will, and VOP grants +3 to all.

Weaknesses-
Anti-magic field make you lose the bonus of your tattoos, and all spell casting.
After casting all level 9 spells, fiery burst is less effective.
Must use experience for expensive components for spells, or have ally give them to her/him.

Notes-
Spells to take-
4th- Wall of Fire
6th- Storm of Fire and Ice
9th- Meteor Swarm
Any other fires spells to fill in gaps, I don't have that many books with spells.

Chronos
2008-02-10, 02:03 PM
Quoth Behold_the_Void:
If you'll note, the way his classes break down gives him full BAB at the end of his career.That's one interpretation of the gestalt rules, but the more usual interpretations generally say that you can't get full BAB unless you have at least one full BAB class at each level. You can either add up the BAB of both sides separately, and use whichever total is better, or you can use the fractional BAB rules, either of which will result in a low BAB for your character (16, I think, if both Favored Soul and Sacred Exorcist have cleric BAB progression).

Behold_the_Void
2008-02-10, 02:07 PM
Quoth Behold_the_Void:That's one interpretation of the gestalt rules, but the more usual interpretations generally say that you can't get full BAB unless you have at least one full BAB class at each level. You can either add up the BAB of both sides separately, and use whichever total is better, or you can use the fractional BAB rules, either of which will result in a low BAB for your character (16, I think, if both Favored Soul and Sacred Exorcist have cleric BAB progression).

If we're going off fractionals, he'll end up with +15 or +16 BAB, yes. Fortunately, I can use Persisted Divine Power if necessary. I could also drop Fighter for Crusader and work Ruby Knight Vindicator in there, but I'd lose 9th level casting on the Favored Soul side. It is an option though.

Swooper
2008-02-10, 02:41 PM
So, anyone want to critique my build? Haven't had a single comment on it yet.

Chronos
2008-02-10, 03:08 PM
So, anyone want to critique my build? Haven't had a single comment on it yet.Well, I'm not sure it's precisely a gish, since it's psionic instead of arcane. And one could criticize the use of Slayer in a gestalt build, but since you kept full BAB on the other side with Warblade, anyway, I'm not sure it's a big deal. But I have low familiarity with psionics, and even less with ToB, so I can't say much more than that.

One thing, it definitely has the virtue of simplicity. Which probably accounts for the lack of comment: There's not too much to say about it, for those who are familiar with psi and/or ToB, and for those who aren't familiar with them, there's not much we can say.

weenie
2008-02-10, 03:42 PM
From its level 2 Bloodstorm Blade ability, my build can make thrown weapons count as melee. That's how ranged channeling is working, and it also allows Arcane Strike to work.

Oh, well then nevermind the whole "Edit" thing.

Squash Monster
2008-02-10, 04:53 PM
Ok, now someone do mine.I didn't look over it too carefully, but what immediately stands out to me is the use of Ultimate Magus. UM is what most would call a dual-progression prestige class, so I think the use of it is a little iffy.

expirement10K14
2008-02-10, 05:11 PM
Yeah, the UM class is dual-progression, giving you 1,000,000 cheese points.

weenie
2008-02-10, 05:32 PM
I didn't look over it too carefully, but what immediately stands out to me is the use of Ultimate Magus. UM is what most would call a dual-progression prestige class, so I think the use of it is a little iffy.

I know, I gave the matter a lot of tought, but then I noticed, that spellsword doesn't count as a dual progression PrC, because it has full BaB, but only 5/10 spell progression. Now UM is a bit above that, as it has a spell progressions of 10/10 and 7/10, but the Duke wrote(second emphasis added):


As I see it, a dual-progression PrC advances the key class abilities of two different entry classes at every level (or really, really close to every level).

I'm not completley sure if 7/10 qualifies as "realy realy cloce", but I've coupled it with Abjurant champion for 5 levels, so in theory we could say that Abjurant champion gives a 2/5 and UM 8/10 wizard casting progression, which would make them both not dual progression by the Spellsword benchmark.

So, what do you think about it now?

Zincorium
2008-02-10, 05:44 PM
To be clear on what's stated in RAW, Eldritch Knight is listed as one of the examples of a dual-progression class.

So the entire full BAB and spellcasting thing does appear to fall into that category.

Chronos
2008-02-10, 05:54 PM
So, what do you think about it now?I think that pairing two different dual-progression PrCs together makes the whole thing more cheesy, not less. Frankly, even something like Spellsword looks a bit curdish to me.

weenie
2008-02-10, 06:09 PM
Can't believe all my hard work is turning into cheese! :frown:

Swooper
2008-02-10, 06:14 PM
Hmm. Personally I'd never consider Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, Abjurant Champion or Slayer as dual progression (I know EK is mentioned in the gestalt rules though, I just disagree with it). For me, dual progression means something that advances both: a) Arcane spellcasting, b) Divine spellcasting, c) Psionic manifesting, d) Invocations, e) Meldshaping, f) Binding, truenaming or anything ToM-ish g) ToB manoeuvre initiating h) anything else that I might be forgetting (seriously, there are too many subsystems out there).

BAB, hit points, skill points, saves, and such are something that every class has, so that one can't really talk about dual progression there, right? :smallconfused:

Edit: Weenie, the main problem with your build is that you're using TWO prestige classes at the same level, which is pretty much forbidden in gestalt.

Squash Monster
2008-02-10, 06:22 PM
I think that allowing a multi-progression class should be allowed if you only benefit from one of the sides.

For example, my build uses a dip into Spellsword to get reduction of arcane spell failure chance. One might argue that Spellsword is cheese, as it progresses BAB and spellcasting. However, at the level I dip Spellsword, it is parallel to a full BAB class, so I don't think it could be argued that I'm benefiting from cheese.

On the other hand, if something like the following shows up in your build, you're cheesing it:
Spellsword 1 / Cleric 1
Spellsword 2 / Wizard 5
Spellsword 3 / Cleric 2
Spellsword 4 / Wizard 6
Spellsword 5 / Cleric 3

For a larger example of a good use of multi-progression, consider a non-gish build. Wizard 3 / Arcane Trickster 10 // Rogue 13. Arcane Trickster is a dual-progression class, but I wouldn't consider this build to be bad, as AT is being run parallel with the actual class it is dual-progressing. This kind of option should be allowed, as many dual-progression classes have abilities that make their mixes of classes work.

weenie
2008-02-10, 06:49 PM
Edit: Weenie, the main problem with your build is that you're using TWO prestige classes at the same level, which is pretty much forbidden in gestalt.

Well, that couldn't be avoided, sadly. Oh well, I'll update another entry with less cheese but most of the functionalities of the first one some time soon then.

Chronos
2008-02-10, 06:49 PM
For a larger example of a good use of multi-progression, consider a non-gish build. Wizard 3 / Arcane Trickster 10 // Rogue 13. Arcane Trickster is a dual-progression class, but I wouldn't consider this build to be bad, as AT is being run parallel with the actual class it is dual-progressing. This kind of option should be allowed, as many dual-progression classes have abilities that make their mixes of classes work.Either you're trying to double your Sneak Attack dice, which is cheesy, or you're not, in which case you might as well stay in wizard.

As for BAB, yes, every class has a BAB, but most don't have full BAB. Pathetic though it might be, getting full BAB is the fighter's primary class feature.

Squash Monster
2008-02-10, 07:12 PM
A fighter's primary class feature is getting a ton of feats. If used well, it makes fighter one of the most powerful non-magic classes.

And the example I gave was not attempting to double sneak attack progression. Arcane Trickster gets abilities other than Sneak Attack, ones that make a wizard//rogue work better. They're not terribly optimal, but there are cases of similar builds (such as something like this with Arcane Hierophant) where you can get abilities that really help your combination.

Swooper
2008-02-10, 08:03 PM
Either you're trying to double your Sneak Attack dice, which is cheesy, or you're not, in which case you might as well stay in wizard.Doubling Sneak Attack dice that way doesn't even work. With two classes giving SA, you only gain the benefit of the one giving the larger amount, or if they give the same amount then it doesn't matter, you only get them from one class in any case. Gestalt rules state pretty explicitly that in the case of two classes sharing a class feature, you advance as the faster class.

Shadow Mask
2008-02-11, 12:53 AM
To shadow mask: Be carefull with the metamagic specialist variant as you can only use the metamagic ability 3 + Int Bonus times per day.

Ok, I will bear that in mind. I don't think it really changes the character that much, as I originally built it without the variant (and therefore an unused familiar) though. But thanks for the help none the less.

weenie
2008-02-11, 09:52 AM
Name: "Thunderer's little helper"
Build: Duskblade 20 // Wizard 5 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Abjurant Champion 5
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 18, WIS 8, CHA 8
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1
Power Break: Level 13 – Full attack channeling

Duskblade 1 // Wizard 1
Duskblade 2 // Wizard 2
Duskblade 3 // Wizard 3
Duskblade 4 // Wizard 4
Duskblade 5 // Wizard 5
Duskblade 6 // Ultimate Magus 1
Duskblade 7 // Ultimate Magus 2
Duskblade 8 // Ultimate Magus 3
Duskblade 9 // Ultimate Magus 4
Duskblade 10 // Ultimate Magus 5
Duskblade 11 // Ultimate Magus 6
Duskblade 12 // Ultimate Magus 7
Duskblade 13 // Ultimate Magus 8
Duskblade 14 // Ultimate Magus 9
Duskblade 15 // Ultimate Magus 10
Duskblade 16 // Abjurant Champion 1
Duskblade 17 // Abjurant Champion 1
Duskblade 18 // Abjurant Champion 1
Duskblade 19 // Abjurant Champion 1
Duskblade 20 // Abjurant Champion 1

Casts as:
Wizard 20
Duskblade 20

Specialist school:
Abjuration

Prohibited schools:
Illusion
Necromancy

Feats:
1 Arcane mastery, Extend Spell
2 bonus Combat Casting
3 Mage Slayer
5 bonus Empower Spell
6 Energy Substitution(sonic),
9 Arcane Strike
10 bonus Twin Spell
12 Rapid Metamagic
15 Quicken Spell
17 bonus Persistent Spell
18 Elven Spell Lore(Stun ray)

Strenghts:
20 BaB
36 AC(Greater Luminous Armor(BoED), Persistend Shield) up to 45 with Spiderskin and Sonic Shield
Thunderlance (Int to attack, 1.5X Int to damage, reach 20ft, overcomes any DR)
Stone body for imunity to extra damage from critical hits, ability damage and DR 10/adamantine
Automatically overcomes SR 35 or less(45 with Assay spell resistance) once he injures the opponent
Good will save
Can cast energy spells as Sonic spells, thus avoiding most energy resistances.
Can cast spells of any level as a sudden action 4X/day

Weaknesses:
Mediocre fort and low ref save
Needs all the int boost it can get fot optimal performance and ring of freedom of movement so it doesn't get eaten

Base Stats @ 1st Level:
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 18
CHA: 8

Base Stats @ 20th Level:
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 23
CHA: 8

Buffed Stats (Amulet of health +6,Headband of intellect +6,Tome of clear thought +5):
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 20
WIS: 8
INT: 34
CHA: 8

Average HP:
198.5

Items to have

Thunderer's little helper can work perfectly even without these items, but they'll give him a great boost in combat.
-Headband of intellect +6
-Tome of clear thought +5
-Ring of wizardy IV(doubles both your Wizard and Duskblade lvl 4 spells)
-Mantle of Displacement
-Metamagic Rod, Maximize
-Amulet of health +6
-Ring og Freedom of Movement
-Belt of Battle
-Something that protects him from Energy Drain and Death Effects

How it works:

Things to cast in the morning:
-Mind Blank
-Superior Resistance(SpC)
-Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability(SpC)
-If you have some means of sudden maximisation Persistent Thunderlance is also a good thing to have
-Magic tattoo
-Persistent Wraithstrike
-Persistent Haste won't hurt either, but isn't necessary

When fighting a non-spellcaster Thunderer's little helper has all the options in the world. Usually full attacking the foe for a few rounds will do the job. Body of stone is a good pre-battle buff in this case. If the Thunderlance doesn't do enough damage on it's own, Arcane Strike and Arcane Channeling are both good options and can be even used simultaneously. Actualy going nova is something Thunderer's little helper is exceptional at(see agumented casting).

Against a spellcaster you'll want to Dimension Door in as soon as possible. Thanks to Mage Slayer and the 20ft reach of Thunderlance your foe will be almost powerless. Oh, and if the enemy caster is too heavily buffed, your greater dispell magic works at a +22 bonus thanks to Elven Spell Lore(PH2), so you automatically dispell al spells with a caster level of 21 or lower. Pre-battle buff with Greater Arcane Sight when possible.

MrScary
2008-02-11, 10:23 AM
Doubling Sneak Attack dice that way doesn't even work. With two classes giving SA, you only gain the benefit of the one giving the larger amount, or if they give the same amount then it doesn't matter, you only get them from one class in any case. Gestalt rules state pretty explicitly that in the case of two classes sharing a class feature, you advance as the faster class.

yeah, you just add to the sneak attack dice with special prc's, like assassin for example

those specifically state they add to sneak attack damage

MrScary
2008-02-11, 10:38 AM
Casts as:
Wizard 20(Cl 24)
Duskblade 20(Cl 24)

Feats:
1 Rapid Metamagic, Mage Slayer
2 bonus Combat Casting
3 Extend Spell
5 bonus Empower Spell
6 Energy Substitution(sonic),
9 Arcane Strike
10 bonus Twin Spell
12 Arcane mastery
15 Quicken Spell
17 bonus Persistent Spell
18 Elven Spell Lore(Stun ray)

[/QUOTE]

you can't take Mage Slayer at 1st level, you need a 3 BaB

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Mage_Slayer,all

also, your caster levels are all reduced by 4

so you can't cast as 24th level

it's more like

Casts as:
Wizard 20(Cl 16)
Duskblade 20 (Cl 16)

because you got 5 + 15 for wizard from Ultimate magus and abj champ for 20 CL in wizard

but you don't have anything that increases your caster level, that i can see

(practiced spell caster would, but you can't go beyond your HD which is 20hd)

weenie
2008-02-11, 10:50 AM
you can't take Mage Slayer at 1st level, you need a 3 BaB

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Mage_Slayer,all

also, your caster levels are all reduced by 4

so you can't cast as 24th level

it's more like

Casts as:
Wizard 20(Cl 16)
Duskblade 20 (Cl 16)

because you got 5 + 15 for wizard from Ultimate magus and abj champ for 20 CL in wizard

but you don't have anything that increases your caster level, that i can see

(practiced spell caster would, but you can't go beyond your HD which is 20hd)

Actually Ultimate magus gives you +4 to caster level, but I never tought that Mage Slayer would have such a terrible drawback! -4 to caster level? What the hell! Anyway thanks for pointing out my mistake. I'll fix it right away.

MrScary
2008-02-11, 11:06 AM
but don't forget your cheese points:

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000

cheese points for a class that advances 2 classes at the same time (wiz and dusk)

just thought i'd point that out from the front page rules :smalltongue:



Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each)

weenie
2008-02-11, 11:25 AM
but don't forget your cheese points:

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000

cheese points for a class that advances 2 classes at the same time (wiz and dusk)

just thought i'd point that out from the front page rules :smalltongue:

Ummm, no, that was meant for prestige classes that advance 2 classes at the same time. Advancing 2 classes at the same time is kinda the point in gestalt... :smallsmile:

On the other hand, Ultimate magus and Abjurant champion are both such PrCs, but I coupled them with Duskblade, so they actually give just wizard advancement and as was enstablished earlier, that's ok in the cheese departement.

Squash Monster
2008-02-11, 11:36 AM
Er... no. You advance wizard and duskblade at the same time using Ultimate Magus. There's only one level where that overlaps with your duskblade progression.

weenie
2008-02-11, 12:09 PM
That was Thunderer. Check for Thunderer's little helper a few posts above.

Squash Monster
2008-02-11, 01:40 PM
Oh. Nevermind then. The interaction of "lower-level existing class" and gestalt is pretty weird, but otherwise I have no problems with it.

I honestly don't think it's a particularly powerful build, so giving it cheese points for what it does wouldn't seem right to me.

Why would you drop illusion on a gish, though?

Swooper
2008-02-11, 01:56 PM
Hmm, Rapid Metamagic requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft so you can't take that at 1st level either.

weenie
2008-02-11, 02:12 PM
Oh. Nevermind then. The interaction of "lower-level existing class" and gestalt is pretty weird, but otherwise I have no problems with it.

I honestly don't think it's a particularly powerful build, so giving it cheese points for what it does wouldn't seem right to me.

Why would you drop illusion on a gish, though?

Because I ran out of other dropable schools. Enchantment has Irresistible dance, Evocation has Thunderlance and Combust, Conjuration has all the Orb spells, Abjuration has all the magic counters and other AC boosting spells, and we don't really need to do Transmutation, do we?

Also True Seeing in quite common in higher levels, so I saw Illusion as a relativeley weak school.


Hmm, Rapid Metamagic requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft so you can't take that at 1st level either.

Tnx.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-11, 04:04 PM
Name: "Metamage Knight"
Build: Grey Elf Conjurer 5/ Incantrantrix 8/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Archmage 2// Beguiler 17/ Elf Paragon 3
Starting Ability Scores: STR 13-2 (11), DEX 8+2 (10), CON 12-2 (10), INT 17+2 (19), WIS 14, CHA 8
Cheese Points: 2 (Flaws)
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: 16+ (Dark Chaos Shuffle)
Banned Schools (wizard):Evocation, Enchantment, Illusion

{table=head]ECL | Left Class | Right Class | BAB | Fort | Reflx | Will | Skill Pts | Feats | Ability Increase | Special abilities
1 | Conjurer | Beguiler | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | +2/+2 | 6 | Flaw: Skill Focus(Spellcraft), Flaw: Spell Focus(Conjuration), Iron Will, Scribe Scroll | | Wizard and Beguiler Spellcasting, Armored Mage, Trapfinding
2 | Conjurer | Beguiler | +1/+1 | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | +1/+1 | 6 | | | Cloaked Casting(+1 DC), Suprise Casting
3 | Conjurer | Beguiler | +0/+0 | +1/+1 | +1/+1 | +0/+0 | 6 | Arcane Disciple (War) | | Advanced Learning I
4 | Conjurer | Beguiler | +1/+1 | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | +1/+1 | 6 | | Intelligence +1 |
5 | Conjurer | Beguiler | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | 6 | Extend Spell, Silent Spell | |
6 | Incantantrix | Beguiler | +0/(+1) | +0/(+1) | +0/(+1) | (+2)/+1 | 6 | Split Ray, Spell Focus(Illusion) | | Suprise Casting (move action)
7 | Incantantrix | Beguiler | (+1)/+0 | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | (+1)/+0 | 6 | | | Advanced Learning II
8 | Incantantrix | Beguiler | +0/(+1) | (+1)/+0 | (+1)/+0 | +0/(+1) | 6 | | Intelligence +1 | Cloaked Casting (+2 vs. SR)
9 | Incantantrix | Beguiler | (+1)/+0 | +0/(+1) | +0/(+1) | (+1)/+0 | 6 | Arcane Thesis(Divine Power) | |
10 | Incantantrix | Beguiler | +0/(+1) | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | +0/(+1) | 6 | Persistant Spell, Still Spell | |
11 | Incantantrix | Beguiler | (+1)/+0 | (+1)/+0 | (+1)/+0 | (+1)/+0 | 6 | | | Advanced Learning III
12 | Incantantrix | Beguiler | +0/(+1) | +0/(+1) | +0/(+1) | +0/(+1) | 6 | Chain Spell | Intelligence +1 |
13 | Incantantrix | Beguiler | (+1)/+0 | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | (+1)/+0 | 6 | | |
14 | Abjurant Champion | Beguiler | +1 | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | (+2)/+1 | 6 | | | Cloaked Casting(+2 DC)
15 | Abjurant Champion | Beguiler | +1 | +0/(+1) | +0/(+1) | (+1)/+0 | 6 | Rapid Metamagic | | Advanced Learning IV
16 | Abjurant Champion | Beguiler | +1 | (+1)/+0 | (+1)/+0 | +0/+0 | 6 | | Intelligence +1 |
17 | Abjurant Champion | Elf Paragon | +1 | +0/+0 | +2 | +1 | 2 | | |
18 | Archmage | Elf Paragon | +1 | +0/+0 | +1 | +2 | 2 | Maximize Spell, Weapon Focus(composite longbow) | | Arcane Reach
19 | Abjurant Champion | Elf Paragon | +1 | +0/(+1) | +0 | +0 | 2 | | Intelligence +2 | Advanced Learning V
20 | Archmage | Beguiler | (+1)/+0 | +0/+0 | +0/+0 | +1/+1 | 6 | | Intelligence +1 | Mastery of Shaping
Ttl | | | +17 | +9 | +11 | +20 | 108 | | |
[/table]
Note: In cases where one BAB/Save progression is better than the other I have opted to always take the better progression, even if it results in a lesser overall bonus and do not even list the lesser progression. In cases where there are two identical progressions, I have opted to show both and take the better overall value, shown in parenthesis. I feel this is a fairest possible interpretation of the gestalt rules for "best progression."

{table=head]Embrace the Dark Chaos removes | Shun the Dark Chaos returns
Martial Weapon(longsword) | Arcane Strike
Martial Weapon(rapier) | Power Attack
Martial Weapon(longbow) | Easy Metamagic(Chain)
Martial Weapon(shortbow) | Easy Metamagic(Quicken)
Martial Weapon(composite shortbow) | Easy Metamagic(Persist)
Weapon Focus(composite longbow) | Easy Metamagic(Maximize)
[/table]

Offense: This build may not look like a gish, but since if it worships Mayaheine (LG) it gains access to both the War domain and EWP: Bastard Sword and Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, and has a virtually limitless amount of self buffs. Most metamagic feats (Maximize, Split Ray, Chain, Extend) cost only a single +1 spell slot, with Quicken and Persistant Spell only adding +2 and +4, respectively. As if that where not enough (and it isn't) this build can easily cast a Persistant Divine Power, or use Quicken Extended or Still/Silent Extended Divine Power if that is dispelled for some reason, resulting in a steady BAB of 20 and large Strength/HP buff. Abjurant Champion and plenty of Beguiler spells mean that while you can be attacked in melee by this build, you'll never be able to mount a successful counter-attack.

By summoning defenders, and Quicken Chain buffing them via Arcane Reach, this build can have a small army up with a only a few rounds notice. By burning the large amount of spell slots Beguilers have in combat for Arcane strike and protecting itself with Abjurant Champion Abjuration bonuses, it will be able to wade into combat with even the most dangerous of foes. Mastery of Shaping allows even more evil tricks, like custom forming an Antimagic Field that doesn't include the caster. The ability to easily toss off a Quickened spell every round works for battlefield control, both offensive and defensive.

Defense: Caster level 20 and 9th level Wizard and 9th level Beguiler spells say: DON'T TOUCH! Can Abrupt Jaunt as an immediate action, and is assumed to be running Foresight so suprise/flatfootness is not possible. Optimally, will wear light 0% ACF heavy fortification armor to protect against criticals, as well as Mind Blank.

Weaknesses: Poor planning could kill this build, as will not keeping the appropriate 'Batman' buffs renewed. Low Hitpoints from Hit Dice from 14 d4 levels. Dependent on magic buffs to fight effectively.


Still in progress...

avr
2008-02-12, 02:37 AM
And another entry, just because I can.

Name: Master of (Meta)magic
Classes: Warblade 5/Rogue 13/Warblade +2//Wizard 6/Escalation Mage 6/Recaster 5/Archmage 3 (Racial substitution levels: Rogue 1, 3, 8)
Starting ability scores: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 8
Cheese points: Zero by the guide at the beginning!
Minimum playable level: 1
Power break points: At level 12 the escalation mage class abilities suddenly become reliable with the soul of shadow feature.

Changeling (favoured class Rogue):
1: Warblade 1 // Wizard 1: Spell focus (Illusion), Bonus feat: Scribe Scroll {Battle Clarity [+INT on Reflex saves, max bonus = warblade level]}
2: Warblade 2 // Wizard 2: {Uncanny dodge}
3: Warblade 3 // Wizard 3: Empower Spell {Battle ardor [+INT to confirm crits]}
4: Warblade 4 // Wizard 4
5: Warblade 5 // Wizard 5: Bonus feat: Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind), Bonus Feat: Heighten Spell
6: Rogue 1 // Wizard 6: Maximise Spell {+1d6 Sneak Attack, social intuition}
7: Rogue 2 // Escalation Mage 1: {Evasion, the shade within}
8: Rogue 3 // EM 2: {+2d6 SA, minor lore [+1 to Knowledge checks], escalation [shadow focus]}
9: Rogue 4 // EM 3: Widen Spell {Improved uncanny dodge, escalation [shadow power]}
10: Rogue 5 // EM 4: {+3d6 SA, escalation [shadow growth]}
11: Rogue 6 // EM 5: {Minor lore [+2 to Knowledge checks], escalation [shadow haste]}
12: Rogue 7 // EM 6: Spell focus (Evocation) {+4d6 SA, soul of shadow}
13: Rogue 8 // Recaster 1: {Mutable anatomy [50% immune to crits], metamorphic spell [components]}
14: Rogue 9 // Recaster 2: {+5d6 SA, Expanded Knowledge: Heal [Cleric 6], Sudden Maximise, minor lore [+3 to Knowledge checks]}
15: Rogue 10 // Recaster 3: Skill focus (Spellcraft), Bonus feat: Chain Spell {metamorphic spell [time]}
16: Rogue 11 // Recaster 4: {+6d6 SA, Expanded Knowledge: Irresistible Dance [Bard 6], Sudden Widen}
17: Rogue 12 // Recaster 5: {Minor lore [+4 to Knowledge checks], metamorphic spell [space]}
18: Rogue 13 // Archmage 1: Greater spell focus (illusion), Bonus feat: Spell Penetration {+7d6 SA, Spell Power [-1 5th level slot]}
19: Warblade 6 // Archmage 2: {Mastery of Elements [-1 8th level slot], improved uncanny dodge}
20: Warblade 7 // Archmage 3: {Mastery of Counterspelling [-1 7th level slot], Battle Cunning [add Int bonus to SA damage]}

Manoeuvres at 20th level (4 prepared, IL 13): Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind 1), Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM 1), Wall of Blades (Iron Heart 2), Tactical Strike (White Raven 2), Iron Heart Surge (IH 3), Moment of Alacrity (DM 6), Avalanche of Blades (DM 7)

Stances at 20th level: Stance of Clarity (DM 1), Leading the Charge (WR 1)

Caster level 20, number of spells as per a 19th level wizard

Base Attack (Warblade +7, Rogue +9.75) = +16
Base Fort Save (Warblade +5, Rogue +4.33) = +9

Fort Save (Base +9, Con +2) +11
Base Reflex Save (Warblade +2.33, Rogue +8.5) = +10

Reflex Save (Base +10, Dex +2, Int +5) +15
Base Will Save (Wizard +5, EM +1.67, Recaster +4.5, Archmage +3.5) = +14

Will Save (Base +14, Wis -1) +13

Offensive: Chained Irresistible Dance at 30’ range. Maximised Acid Meteor Swarms with holes sculpted in it for your allies. Sneak attack with ray spells. Quickened 9th level spells via class abilities. Up to 7th level warblade manoeuvres with a +16 base attack. What’s not to like?

Defensive: The Wall of Blades manoeuvre (Iron Heart 2) substitutes your attack roll for your AC for one attack, Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind 1) turns a will save into a Concentration check, mutable anatomy gives you 50% immunity to critical strikes, Iron heart surge (Iron Heart 3) negates negative conditions affecting him.

Weaknesses: The equivalent of just over a d8 hit die for one. A swift action shortage – escalations, quickened spells and many manoeuvres take swift or immediate actions. Can burn thru his high level spells pretty fast what with quickened spells and archmage spell slots lost. Fort save could be better; items may be required to increase it.

Comments are welcome.

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-12, 03:26 PM
Note: In cases where one BAB/Save progression is better than the other I have opted to always take the better progression, even if it results in a lesser overall bonus and do not even list the lesser progression. In cases where there are two identical progressions, I have opted to show both and take the better overall value, shown in parenthesis. I feel this is a fairest possible interpretation of the gestalt rules for "best progression."


This is blatant cheese. You could stagger wizard and sorcerer with one level of a full BAB class and arrive at full BAB (+20) under your "fairest possible interpretation." The real fairest interpretation is using fractional BAB, although it is generally not needed except when cheese is applied as is above.

Disclaimer: It is possible that I totally misread your post, and if so, I appologize in advance.

Zincorium
2008-02-12, 03:43 PM
@ Tokiko Mima:

Your build has a BAB of +12. That's it.

There's a reason the fractional base attack bonuses and save bonuses table is alongside the gestalt section. You could have actually mapped it out, but here's the simple answer.

Your build has 15 levels where the classes taken have poor BAB. You can't get better than poor BAB if neither of the classes have it. It has five levels where it has full BAB.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-12, 03:50 PM
@ Tokiko Mima:

Your build has a BAB of +12. That's it.

There's a reason the fractional base attack bonuses and save bonuses table is alongside the gestalt section. You could have actually mapped it out, but here's the simple answer.

Your build has 15 levels where the classes taken have poor BAB. You can't get better than poor BAB if neither of the classes have it. It has five levels where it has full BAB.
Agreed.

Nice new avatar, btw.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-12, 06:04 PM
@ Tokiko Mima:

Your build has a BAB of +12. That's it.

There's a reason the fractional base attack bonuses and save bonuses table is alongside the gestalt section. You could have actually mapped it out, but here's the simple answer.

Your build has 15 levels where the classes taken have poor BAB. You can't get better than poor BAB if neither of the classes have it. It has five levels where it has full BAB.

Though it hardly matters, since my build be under the effects of Divine Power every single moment of every day (Which is why I have Arcane Thesis for that particular spell, just to make that easier), fractional BAB and saves were not part of the rules of the contest, nor are gestalt characters automatically required at any point to to calculate their saves and BAB using them, despite your implication.

I don't believe those rules are even Open Content, as the rules governing them are not in the SRD (I could be wrong though. My Search-fu has failed me before). I do not own Unearthed Arcana, so your expectation that I would see a table in a book I don't own is a little insulting. I could, as you imply, figure them out on my own, but why should calculate for rules I haven't seen in print that aren't in Gestalt rules or mentioned in the contest rules?

Also, not that it matters, but you miscounted. Elf Paragon has a medium BAB progression. So 14 levels of low attack bonus, one level of medium BAB, and 5 levels of full BAB. Or if I moved the levels around I could count it as 12 poor, 3 medium, and 5 full but using the standard D&D RAW for multiclassing I didn't think I needed to.

So except for PrC qualification (which I cover no matter how you calculate it) the BAB of my build doesn't matter at all. This build goes around with a perfect BAB of 20 all the time thanks to Divine Power. So why does this fractional nonsense make such a big difference? Is the .05% of the time or less where my character might find themselves attacking in an AMF while unable to teleport out such an issue? I thought I covered it in my Weakness section by listing that I "depend on magic to fight." Most casters do as well.

Chronos
2008-02-12, 06:24 PM
There are other interpretations than fractional BAB and full-BAB wizsorcs. Another interpretation one might use is to find the total BAB from one side, and the total BAB from the other side, and use whichever total BAB is better. This will, typically, give you (approximately) the same BAB as using fractionals, and will, like fractionals, leave your build with a mediocre (un-enhanced) BAB.

It is, as you point out, somewhat (though not entirely; AMFs and Dispel Magic do exist) moot for your character, due to Divine Power. However, it's important to make the distinction clear, since not everyone in this competition has Divine Power. In fact, the very next build after yours, avr's Master of Metamagic, uses the same trick, without the Divine Power.

Further, it's a bit disingenuous to say "Note: In cases where one BAB/Save progression is better than the other I have opted to always take the better progression, even if it results in a lesser overall bonus and do not even list the lesser progression.", as if you're making some sacrifice by doing it that way, when you have, in fact, chosen the single interpretation which gives the best possible result for your build.

Behold_the_Void
2008-02-12, 06:30 PM
There are other interpretations than fractional BAB and full-BAB wizsorcs. Another interpretation one might use is to find the total BAB from one side, and the total BAB from the other side, and use whichever total BAB is better. This will, typically, give you (approximately) the same BAB as using fractionals, and will, like fractionals, leave your build with a mediocre (un-enhanced) BAB.

It is, as you point out, somewhat (though not entirely; AMFs and Dispel Magic do exist) moot for your character, due to Divine Power. However, it's important to make the distinction clear, since not everyone in this competition has Divine Power. In fact, the very next build after yours, avr's Master of Metamagic, uses the same trick, without the Divine Power.

Further, it's a bit disingenuous to say "Note: In cases where one BAB/Save progression is better than the other I have opted to always take the better progression, even if it results in a lesser overall bonus and do not even list the lesser progression.", as if you're making some sacrifice by doing it that way, when you have, in fact, chosen the single interpretation which gives the best possible result for your build.

I've been going in and fixing things up. I'm fine with either rule interpretation, but I would like to know which one is the valid one for this competition.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-12, 06:31 PM
This is blatant cheese. You could stagger wizard and sorcerer with one level of a full BAB class and arrive at full BAB (+20) under your "fairest possible interpretation." The real fairest interpretation is using fractional BAB, although it is generally not needed except when cheese is applied as is above.

Disclaimer: It is possible that I totally misread your post, and if so, I appologize in advance.

*sigh*

If you look at my build you'll notice that my BAB from classes taken honestly doesn't matter. The only PrC with a BAB requirement I take is Abjurant Champion, with a +5 minimum at level 14. Every single class has the BAB requirements for that by that level.

Your "fairest interpretation" is a variant rule that's not part of the contest or even Open Content. While I agree that it's more logical for multiclassing to work that way, I was just adding up the numbers under the fairest possible interpretation of the RAW for multiclassing and gestalt. However you add them up, my final build's BAB is going to be +20 all the time anyway thanks to DP.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-12, 06:34 PM
However you add them up, my final build's BAB is going to be +20 all the time anyway thanks to DP.

Unless you run across something with a Dispel Magic...

Zincorium
2008-02-12, 06:47 PM
*sigh*

If you look at my build you'll notice that my BAB from classes taken honestly doesn't matter. The only PrC with a BAB requirement I take is Abjurant Champion, with a +5 minimum at level 14. Every single class has the BAB requirements for that by that level.

Your "fairest interpretation" is a variant rule that's not part of the contest or even Open Content. While I agree that it's more logical for multiclassing to work that way, I was just adding up the numbers under the fairest possible interpretation of the RAW for multiclassing and gestalt. However you add them up, my final build's BAB is going to be +20 all the time anyway thanks to DP.

No one was contesting the abjurant champion entry requirements (although it's use in your build IS cheese by any reasonable standard), and the 'fairest interpretation' were your words.

Just by using common sense, it should be clear that progression, in this case, is the poor-medium-good progression shown by the PHB. You can't get good progression if neither of the classes you're using have it.

The fact that you are milking questionable interpretations for additional BAB is kind of lame considering how easy it would be to get it legitimately.

weenie
2008-02-12, 06:54 PM
@ Tokiko Mima:

You're using Abjurant Champion as a dual-progression PrC.

Oh, and the Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos thing is completley insane. It's not against the rules or something, but no DM I know would ever allow it.

Behold_the_Void
2008-02-12, 07:07 PM
Unless you run across something with a Dispel Magic...

That's the nice thing about my build. With high Charisma and a bandolier of Nightsticks, if someone manages to dispel it I'll just throw it up again. While Prepared Casting is theoretically far more powerful, spontaneous casting can be rather nice for situations like that.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-12, 07:10 PM
Unless you run across something with a Dispel Magic...

Dispel Magic alone won't work against a CL 20 spell (DC 31 vs. d20 +10 roll), unless you have some bonuses to dispel. Greater Dispel could work, but now you're spending a 6th level spell to get rid of my 4th level spell which is easy to recast on the same round it's needed.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-12, 07:13 PM
One thing that is being completely twisted/mutilated/mis-spoken about is:

Base
Attack
Bonus

BAB is not going to be "20" all the time.

The BAB is technically 17/12/7/2.

:smallsmile:

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-12, 07:21 PM
@ Tokiko Mima:

You're using Abjurant Champion as a dual-progression PrC.

....
:smallfurious:

Ok, this is completely beyond nuts. Since when is Abjurant Champion a dual progression class? Base Attack bonus is NOT A CLASS FEATURE! It's never, ever listed been as a class feature.

By this same logic, virtually all PrC's are dual progression because they all advance at least one Save progression as well as advance something else.

Yes, Ultimate Magus is dual progression. Yes, Mystic Theurge is dual progression. It's easy to tell because they give two +1's to spellcasting, meldshaping, mystery use, binding, etc. in a single level.

Eldritch Knight is NOT a dual progession class. You're only advancing *one* spellcasting level, that's all. Not two, one. 1 + 1 = 2, not 1 = 2, ok?

expirement10K14
2008-02-12, 07:27 PM
I am almost positive one of the unearthed arcana rules on gestalt says BAB is a class feature. Not positive.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-12, 07:45 PM
There are other interpretations than fractional BAB and full-BAB wizsorcs. Another interpretation one might use is to find the total BAB from one side, and the total BAB from the other side, and use whichever total BAB is better. This will, typically, give you (approximately) the same BAB as using fractionals, and will, like fractionals, leave your build with a mediocre (un-enhanced) BAB.

It is, as you point out, somewhat (though not entirely; AMFs and Dispel Magic do exist) moot for your character, due to Divine Power. However, it's important to make the distinction clear, since not everyone in this competition has Divine Power. In fact, the very next build after yours, avr's Master of Metamagic, uses the same trick, without the Divine Power.

Right. If this gets into a spellcasting contest though, I will have 20 levels of Wizard and 19 levels of Beguiler to draw on. I'd still give my build fair odds, just based on the sheer number of available spell slots and how easy metamagic is for it.


Further, it's a bit disingenuous to say "Note: In cases where one BAB/Save progression is better than the other I have opted to always take the better progression, even if it results in a lesser overall bonus and do not even list the lesser progression.", as if you're making some sacrifice by doing it that way, when you have, in fact, chosen the single interpretation which gives the best possible result for your build.

But it did cost me. I lost a point of BAB at level 18 (I think?), and a point or two of micelleneous saves. I remember doing it because someone argued that the gestalt rules require you to take the 'best progression' not necessarily the best value. I thought that was a fair interpretation so I ran with it. So I take the best progression first, and only take the best value if it's a tie for best progression. The problem lies in multiclassing/gestalt via the RAW rules being inherently beneifical as long as you do so carefully (usually in 2's or 4's or 6's).

And again, it doesn't matter to me if I did end up with BAB +10 because I built for Divine Power. If I really wanted a high BAB, I would have staggered the Beguiler/Wizard levels at 1-5 and gained more BAB. I just added them up directly.

Zincorium
2008-02-12, 07:53 PM
Right. If this gets into a spellcasting contest though, I will have 20 levels of Wizard and 19 levels of Beguiler to draw on. I'd still give my build fair odds, just based on the sheer number of available spell slots and how easy metamagic is for it.

Your character is a spellcaster. It isn't a Gish by almost any interpretation. It doesn't fight any better than a cleric.


And again, it doesn't matter to me if I did end up with BAB +10 because I built for Divine Power. If I really wanted a high BAB, I would have staggered the Beguiler/Wizard levels at 1-5 and gained more BAB. I just added them up directly.

It does not work that way.

Beguiler- Poor progression
Wizard- poor progression

No matter how you slice it, you have poor progression for all those levels, because poor progression is the best progression. This is not complicated, and it does not make sense to get really good BAB without taking a single thing with good BAB for 75% of your class levels.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-12, 07:55 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm#buildingAGestaltCharacter



Choose the better progression of the two.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-12, 07:59 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm#buildingAGestaltCharacter



Choose the better progression of the two.

Behold_the_Void
2008-02-12, 08:13 PM
Do we have a ruling on Abjurant Champion by the way? I'd like to use it to pump my build's natural BAB a bit more.

Chronos
2008-02-12, 08:24 PM
As to Abjurant Champion,
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.If Eldritch Knight is considered a combination prestige class which should be prohibited, then surely Abjurant Champion should be, too.

That said, the primary rule in this thread seems to be "whatever the voters will accept". I, personally, consider use of things like AbjChamp in Gestalt to be somewhat cheesy (depending on exactly how it's used; it's not too bad if you have full BAB on the other side anyway), and will vote as such, but others may well have different opinions.

avr
2008-02-12, 08:46 PM
The cheese points at the start of this competition were explicitly put in as only one of the factors which people should vote on at the end of the competition. So, if you really want to use Abjurant Champion do so - perhaps it won't bother the lurking voters as much as the vocal posters. There's no way of telling until the votes come in.

The BAB argument bothers me a bit more. Adding up each side separately or using fractional BAB seems fair, saying that a fighter1/sorc.19//wizard20 has a +20 BAB doesn't. If a fair total of BAB is +12 but anywhere outside an antimagic field persisted Divine Power will set it to +20, say so under offensive tactics.

Draz74
2008-02-13, 12:07 AM
As to Abjurant Champion,If Eldritch Knight is considered a combination prestige class which should be prohibited, then surely Abjurant Champion should be, too.

That said, the primary rule in this thread seems to be "whatever the voters will accept". I, personally, consider use of things like AbjChamp in Gestalt to be somewhat cheesy (depending on exactly how it's used; it's not too bad if you have full BAB on the other side anyway), and will vote as such, but others may well have different opinions.

Yeah, I think this particular rule in Gestalt is quite outdated. It comes from a time when there were much fewer classes (especially spellcaster PrCs) with full BAB than there are now.

If you have Abjurant Champion or EK on one side, and something that has full BAB anyway on the other side, I don't think it should be considered at all cheesy (for the purposes of this contest). If you're actually using said PrCs to get a better BAB ... yeah, that's somewhat cheesy, because of the line from the Gestalt rules, outdated though it may be.

Cuddly
2008-02-13, 12:44 AM
Why do flaws get cheese points, but not changing the racial proficiencies into metamagic feats? That seems to be waaaay cheesier.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-13, 02:19 AM
As to Abjurant Champion,If Eldritch Knight is considered a combination prestige class which should be prohibited, then surely Abjurant Champion should be, too.

That said, the primary rule in this thread seems to be "whatever the voters will accept". I, personally, consider use of things like AbjChamp in Gestalt to be somewhat cheesy (depending on exactly how it's used; it's not too bad if you have full BAB on the other side anyway), and will vote as such, but others may well have different opinions.

Eldritch Knight is essentially a gish class. You use it to become a gish. So you're saying Gish PrC's should be outlawed in a Gestalt Gish build challenge? I know it's nominally in the rules, but I don't think this contest is over 'who can find the class that progresses only one thing and string them into 20 levels?'

Maybe you haven't noticed, but under the strict definition of 'dual-progression' you're endorsing roughly half the base classes, and all but 3 or 4 of the DMG PrC's count as progressing two things at once.

Virtually all the builds presented would be disqualified as using some form of dual progression trickery, from Abjurant Champ, to Arcane Trickster, to Blade Bravo, to Divine Oracle, Eldritch Knight, to Enlightened Fist, to Escalation Mage, Geomancer, to Green Star Adept, to Halfling Outrider, to Kensai, to Loremaster, to Planar Shepard, to Rage Mage, to Ruby Knight Vindicator, to Slayer, to Spellsword, and Swiftblade. I think that disqualifies everyone, except for the one build made only of base classes, though Duskblade looks mighty fishy with its full caster progression and perfect BAB.

Besides, the OP even admits that Spellsword at least is ok in this post on page 2. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3903276&postcount=33) I can't see why Eldritch Knight would be barred in that case and it's only a stones throw to Abjurant Champion. They're just improved versions of the same thing.


....

The BAB argument bothers me a bit more. Adding up each side separately or using fractional BAB seems fair, saying that a fighter1/sorc.19//wizard20 has a +20 BAB doesn't.

Which is why people use fractional BAB/Saves. But that's not part of RAW. The multiclassing rules actually allow this exact situation to happen.


If a fair total of BAB is +12 but anywhere outside an antimagic field persisted Divine Power will set it to +20, say so under offensive tactics.

I quit literally did in the weakness section. Why would I tell you about a weakness in the offense section?


Why do flaws get cheese points, but not changing the racial proficiencies into metamagic feats? That seems to be waaaay cheesier.

Because those were the rules stated at the top of the contest page? I could have retrained those Feats, but Dark Chaos seemed more wizardly and less abitrary. It also cut down on people telling me I couldn't retrain Racial Feats or something wierd. It's just a neat trick high level wizards get to do.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-13, 10:42 AM
entry:

Name: Spellsquid
Build: Antropomorphic Giant Squid Ex-Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Duskblade 19//Racial HD 3/LA 1/Monk 1/Bonus Feat Rogue 8/Enlightened Fist 7/
Cheese Points: 2 (Monk Dip, Lion Totem Barbarian dip)
Starting Abilities: Str. 22, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 4


Anthropomorphic Giant Squid {Large, Giant Squid Traits, 8 arms, +6 natural armor}

Ex-Barbarian 1//LA 1: Multi-Weapon Fighting {Pounce}
Duskblade 1/ /Racial HD 1 {Arcane Attunement, Armored Mage (light)}
Duskblade 2/ /Racial HD 2: Two-Weapon Defense [Combat Casting]
Duskblade 3/ /Racial HD 3 {Arcane Channeling, Str. +1}
Duskblade 4// Monk 1 [Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning fist] {AC bonus, Armored Mage (medium)}
Duskblade 5//Bonus Feat Rogue 1: Ability Focus (Spells) [Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting] {Trapfinding, Quick Cast 1/day}
Duskblade 6//Bonus Feat Rogue 2 [Improved Two-Weapon Defense] {Evasion, Spell Power +2}
Duskblade 7//Bonus Feat Rogue 3 {Armored Mage (Heavy Shield), Trap Sense +1, Str. +1}
Duskblade 8//Bonus Feat Rogue 4: Versatile Spellcaster [Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)] {Uncany Dodge}
Duskblade 9//Bonus Feat Rogue 5
Duskblade 10//Bonus Feat Rogue 6 [Powerful Charge] {Quick Cast 2/Day, Trap Sense +2}
Duskblade 11//Bonus Feat Rogue 7: Forge Ring (Imbrace /Shun the Dark Chaos) {Spell Power +3, Str. +1}
Duskblade 12//Bonus Feat Rogue 8 [Extra Rings (Imbrace /Shun the Dark Chaos)] {Trap Sense +2}
Duskblade 13//Enlightened Fist 1 {Ki Strike (Magic), Monk abilities, Arcane Channeling (Full Attack)}
Duskblade 14//Enlightened Fist 2: Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting {Fist of Energy}
Duskblade 15//Enlightened Fist 3 {Arcane Fist, Quick Cast 3/day, Con +1}
Duskblade 16//Enlightened Fist 4 {Spell Power +4}
Duskblade 17//Enlightened Fist 5: Extra Spell {Arcane Rejuvenation}
Duskblade 18//Enlightened Fist 6 {Fist of Energy (Burst), Spell power +5}
Duskblade 19//Enlightened Fist 7 {Hold Ray, Con. +1}

Spells Known:

0: Touch of Fatigue, Disrupt Undead
1st: Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shocking Grasp, True Strike, Cause Fear
2nd: Ghoul Touch, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Dimension Hop, Wraithstrike (Extra Spell)
3rd: Ray of Exhaustion, Keen Edge, Vampiric Touch, Dispelling Touch
4th: Enervate, Phantasmal Killer, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door
5th: Disintigrate, Chain Lightning, Bigby’s Clenched Fist
Offense:
With his high Dex, he is likely to win initiative, charging in while channeling high-damage spells, like disintigrate (thanks to hold ray), His attack routine on a charge or with a full attack is:

Unarmed Strike +31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+26/+26/+26/+26/+26/+26/+21/+21/+21/+21/+21/+21/+21/+21/+11 melee (2d8+14)
And 8 Tentacles +25/+25/+25/+25/+25/+25/+25/+25/ melee (1d6+10)
And Bite +25 melee (2d8+10)

Plus, he can kill lots of things even if he runs out of spells

Defense:He owns a +5 Mithril Full-Plate and a ring of protection +5
AC 42

Weakness:
Low Con score means less hit points

Equipment:
+5 Mithril Full-Plate (60,500gp)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150,000gp)
Ring of Wizardry II (40,000gp)
Ring of Wizardry III (70,000gp)
Ring of Wizardry IV (100,000gp)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000gp)
Heward’s Handy Haversack (2,000gp)
Wings of Flying (70,000gp)
Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16,000gp)
Ring of protection +5 (50,000gp)

Money Left: 106,500gp

EDIT: Fixed the Full-Plate

Chronos
2008-02-13, 05:41 PM
Defense:He owns a +10 Mithril Full-Plate How? Non-epic armors can have a maximum of a +5 enhancement bonus (they can have a total equivalent bonus up to +10, but the last +5 of that has to be special effects like Fortification).

And I strongly suspect that you've miscalculated your number of attacks. Having more limbs does not let you make more Unarmed Strike attacks.

Squash Monster
2008-02-13, 06:52 PM
That's not quite true. Even a two-limbed person can get multiple attacks out of unarmed strike: you just do so at the full two-weapon-fighting penalty. A multi-limbed person could do the same, at whatever the penalties for that are (I forget the rules for such things).

However, it certainly doesn't work the way suggested with that spellsquid build.

Chronos
2008-02-14, 12:29 AM
Say, weren't new entries supposed to be closed at noon yesterday?

Hell V
2008-02-14, 12:40 AM
I was thinking on making an entry, but away from books right now... Was thinking something Fighter/Swashbuckler/Duelist on one side and fullcaster specialist mage on the other... Using your Int for CA, Hit, Damage, Saves, Skills & Bonus Spells just feels cool... And having feats spare for fighting and metamagic...

Duke of URL
2008-02-14, 07:33 AM
ENTRIES CLOSED -- PLEASE DO NOT EDIT ENTRIES AFTER THIS POINT

Entries:
"Lion King" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3893436&postcount=2)
"Blade of Insight" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3897815&postcount=18)
"Mr. Shifty" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3897821&postcount=19)
"Cleric of the Earth Divine" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3897854&postcount=20)
"Psychic Warblade" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3898156&postcount=21)
"Snake on a Plane" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3900143&postcount=22)
"Iron Man" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3900469&postcount=24)
"Supermount Spell Sage" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3900575&postcount=26)
"Action!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3901014&postcount=29)
"Raging Doom Caster" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3903446&postcount=34)
"Thunderer" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3904346&postcount=42)
"Micro Zorro" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3904402&postcount=43)
"Variousblade Incantagish" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3905191&postcount=54)
"Ownage Link" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3905561&postcount=55)
"Ursa Mager" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3905972&postcount=58)
"Gatling Secondus" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3906011&postcount=59)
"Mean, Green, Argent Machine" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3907363&postcount=64)
"Steroids" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3909654&postcount=75)
"Elven Heavy Artillery" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3911397&postcount=77)
"Faeries Die With Their Boots On" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3913237&postcount=82)
"Divine Chosen Avatar of Face-Smashing" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3916369&postcount=89)
"Poor Man Version 2" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3917704&postcount=93)
"Thunderer's Little Helper" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3922006&postcount=112)
"Metamage Knight" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3923896&postcount=123)
"Master of (Meta)magic" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3926452&postcount=124)
"Spellsquid" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3931785&postcount=150)


Please vote in-thread (and let's see if we can get more votes this time), for any or all of the following categories:

Greatest Gish - the build that best satisfies the challenge goals
Huh? - the most unusual build
Party Animal - the build you'd most like to play or see in your adventuring party
Gouda - the build your DM would most likely never allow


Because of the late start, I'll keep voting open until noon PST on Monday, Feb. 18.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-14, 09:42 AM
Greatest Gish - Faeries Die With Their Boots On
Huh? - Snake on a Plane
Party Animal - Snake on a Plane
Gouda - Metamage Knight

weenie
2008-02-14, 01:50 PM
I would like to propose that we don't vote for our own build. It would make the voting system unbiased, and quite frankly, voting for yourself is pretty lame.

Greatest Gish - Variousblade Incantagish
Huh? - Spellsquid
Party Animal - Snake on a Plane
Gouda - Metamage Knight

Draz74
2008-02-14, 05:46 PM
Edited: Added a level 20 dip into archmage, as every build should have a cool capstone ability - in this case mastery of shaping.

Um ... how do you have the (feat) prereqs for Archmage? I don't see them in your build.

EDIT: Whoops. I didn't see the separate list of non-Bonus feats, so I was looking for these normal feats in the "Class Features" column. :smalleek:

Squash Monster
2008-02-14, 05:50 PM
Um ... how do you have the (feat) prereqs for Archmage? I don't see them in your build.They're right there in the post, don't know what the problem is.

12th: Spell Focus: Transmutation
15th: Spell Focus: Necromancy
18th: Skill Focus: Spellcraft

I agree that voting for yourself is lame. I'll cast my vote once I've had time to do a good read-through of everybody's entry.

Draz74
2008-02-14, 06:14 PM
Dang, I just thought of another build I would have wanted to do. Call it the "third wheel" (the Chaotic Good counter) to the Lion King and Snake on a Plane duality.

Lillend
Outsider 7/Crusader 13//LA 6/Bard 4/Sublime Chord 10.
With Song of the White Raven feat. Yeah ...

... OK, I guess it's not actually better than Snake on a Plane (or at least, it's only better because Snake avoids using Tome of Battle). But still would have been good. And would get the vote from all the Bard fans.

Squash Monster
2008-02-14, 06:22 PM
Greatest Gish - Micro Zorro
While I think it could be better executed, the idea of using gestalt to combine famous The Killer Gnome build with the slightly less famous The Other Killer Gnome build is hilarious, and awesome.

Huh? - Spellsquid
Unarmed strike does not work that way. But the idea makes me laugh.

Party Animal - Mr. Shifty
One of the more competent builds here, and having an intensly self-buffed bear wading across the battlefield sounds amusing.

Additionally, as I'd like to play the build I posted, I like this build as I think the two would work well on the same team.

Gouda - Metamage Knight
Embrace/shun the dark chaos on racial weapon proficiency feats, plus the whole alternating BAB thing. Just doesn't sit well with me.

Chronos
2008-02-14, 08:02 PM
Psst, Duke, the link for Master of (Meta)Magic is wrong-- It just points to Metamage Knight again. Changing the &postcount=124 at the end of the URL doesn't actually do anything (or rather, nothing significant); you have to change the postid number. The correct link is http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3926452&postcount=124


Dang, I just thought of another build I would have wanted to do. Call it the "third wheel" (the Chaotic Good counter) to the Lion King and Snake on a Plane duality.

Lillend
Outsider 7/Crusader 13//LA 6/Bard 4/Sublime Chord 10.
With Song of the White Raven feat. Yeah ...I was considering it, but I don't know enough about Sublime Chord (or the other ways of powering up bards) to make it work. Sorcerer, though, is easy to power up, so I stuck with the couatl.

And I'm going to hold off on voting a bit, until we hear back from The Mean DM on the issue of voting for one's own build. I have no problem with everyone doing it or with nobody doing it, but it should be consistent.

Shadowfred
2008-02-15, 01:46 AM
Greatest Gish: Poor Man Version 2
Huh?: Variousblade Incantagish
Party Animal: Mean, Green, Argent Machine
Gouda: Metamage Knight

Duke of URL
2008-02-15, 07:27 AM
Psst, Duke, the link for Master of (Meta)Magic is wrong-- It just points to Metamage Knight again. Changing the &postcount=124 at the end of the URL doesn't actually do anything (or rather, nothing significant); you have to change the postid number. The correct link is http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3926452&postcount=124


Thanks. This is what I get for trying to take shortcuts...

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-15, 06:38 PM
Huh?: Spellsquid
Gouda: Spellsquid

TheMeanDM
2008-02-15, 07:02 PM
Besides the obvious "every man vote for themselves" argument, what's wrong with voting for yourself?

I honestly feel that my entry is the best combination of arcane power and fighting capability among the entries.

Annarrkkii
2008-02-15, 09:40 PM
Huh? Snake on a Plane... because it's a couatl
Greatest Gish Variousblade Incantagish... because I love the flavor. Very true to the ideal of a gish as an armored knight with a sword slinging spells—straightforward conceptually and effectively executed. Quite powerful, too.
Party Animal Variousblade Incantagish... same reasons as above.
Gouda Metamage Knight... as has been stated, hinges on some hazy rules interpretations—more so even than Fax's build (or mine, for that matter, which does have some potential funkiness).

expirement10K14
2008-02-15, 09:50 PM
* Greatest Gish - Poor Man Version 2
* Huh? - Snake on a Plane
* Party Animal - Mean, Green, Argent Machine
* Gouda - Spellsquid

I have a question. Going to The Mean DM's votes, can we vote for our own builds?

Nebo_
2008-02-15, 11:38 PM
Cheese Points: 2 (Flaws)


{table=head]Embrace the Dark Chaos removes | Shun the Dark Chaos returns
Martial Weapon(longsword) | Arcane Strike
Martial Weapon(rapier) | Power Attack
Martial Weapon(longbow) | Easy Metamagic(Chain)
Martial Weapon(shortbow) | Easy Metamagic(Quicken)
Martial Weapon(composite shortbow) | Easy Metamagic(Persist)
Weapon Focus(composite longbow) | Easy Metamagic(Maximize)
[/table]



Are you suggesting that The Dark Chaos shuffle isn't cheesy?

Draz74
2008-02-16, 02:54 AM
Let's see. Rule out anything based more on divine casting or cheese than on being a "gish." Rule out anything that just doesn't seem impressive in power. Rule out my own because it would be lame to vote for them. :smallwink: Yeah, I'm afraid I have to throw my lot in with several other peoples' votes:

Greatest Gish: Variousblade Incantagish
He's ... melee-focused, but able to switch to ranged when needed. Armored. Strictly arcane in his sources of power. Extremely powerful caster, but also can use all his magic to fuel just his combat abilities. While I don't like Incantrixes, I have to admit they're fair game in this optimization contest. Solid, archetypical, extremely powerful build. Great execution makes up for a slight lack of any "wow, that's creative" factor.

Party Animal: Snake on a Plane
+20 BAB. 20th level casting. Great stats across the board, especially the fun-but-sometimes-lacking-in-a-party Charisma. Based on a cool, rarely-seen monster ... not to mention an oft-overlooked PrC, Loremaster. Very little "cheese." Decent skills and other noncombat utility (an important consideration to me personally), even though that's not really required for a gish. Very flexible in emergencies thanks to Miracle. Fits better in a typical party than its twin the Lion King, thanks to Good alignment. Great saves. I got to help Chronos a little bit in designing it. Feels like a gish in spite of not being humanoid. And most impressive of all, uses very little non-Core material. What's not to love?

Gouda: Supermount Spell Sage
Seriously, no one should ever touch the spell-variant swordsage. :smallyuk:

Huh?: Elven Heavy Artillery
OK, I usually think "melee" for gish. But this build, while it's an archer and it's not the most powerful, gets the "most creative" award in my book.

Honorable Mentions: The Lion King, Blade of Insight, Action!, Micro Zorro, Ownage Link, Ursa Mager.

Chronos
2008-02-16, 01:56 PM
Besides the obvious "every man vote for themselves" argument, what's wrong with voting for yourself?I think the biggest argument is that if folks don't vote for themselves, you get more information. Presumably, we all think that our own builds are pretty good, so if we vote for them, nobody learns anything that they didn't already know, but if we vote for others, then there is new information. This is especially significant if the contestants are a large fraction of the voters: If everyone votes for their own build, then the "best build" title is decided entirely by those voters who didn't submit builds of their own. On the other hand, if everyone who submitted a build says "...But I also really like that build submitted by that other guy", then that means something.

That said, my votes:

Greatest Gish: Variousblade Incantagish. It's got full spellcasting and BAB, it's got gishy abilities from the Duskblade that let the two halves work together better, and it's fairly straightforward (no caster-level juggling, very little cheese, low dependence on race).

Party Animal: Mr. Shifty. I like how the pieces all fit together, what with being "shifty" in race and both class progressions. It'd probably be mechanically superior to choose some other wizard specialization (for more versatility), but as it is, it looks like it would make for fun role-playing, which is the most important thing to add to a party.

Huh?: Ursa Mager. Frankly, this is mostly because of the name, which I found funny enough that I had to give it recognition somehow.

Gouda: Metamage Knight, for reasons the debate of which took up an entire page of the thread.

Honorable Mention: Micro Zorro. It looks like it's probably interesting, and I'm familiar with the Shadowcraft Mage part of the build, but some explanation of the Zorro side would have been nice (as it is, all I know is the names of the abilities, and that it doesn't work well on tiny opponents).


Gouda: Supermount Spell Sage
Seriously, no one should ever touch the spell-variant swordsage.Agreed, but I don't think that one was intended as a serious entry, since playswithfire admitted up front that it'd get voted down for cheesiness.

Draz74
2008-02-16, 03:42 PM
Honorable Mention: Micro Zorro. It looks like it's probably interesting, and I'm familiar with the Shadowcraft Mage part of the build, but some explanation of the Zorro side would have been nice (as it is, all I know is the names of the abilities, and that it doesn't work well on tiny opponents).

I stole it from this historic thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=633443). If you peruse the first post carefully enough, you'll have a fair idea of how the melee side works and what all the Blade Bravo features are.

I think Micro Zorro would have deserved a lot more votes if I'd remembered to fit in Arcane Strike, though (somehow; I'm not sure where, as he's pretty feat-starved).

avr
2008-02-16, 08:57 PM
Greatest Gish: Action! - Covering the non-caster levels of swiftblade with sorcerer on the other side of the gestalt may be cheesy, but literally all of the characters presented in this thread (including my own entries) have something which strikes me as cheesy. Action! looks like it could lay down some serious hurt in melee or with spells, has full spellcasting from a good class list (unlike Warmages or Beguilers), has very useful gimmicks with haste and doesn't lack anything I consider essential such as hands.

Party animal: Poor Man v2 - Effective, fun and unlikely to steal all the loot ...

Huh?: Spellsquid - The name anthropomorphic squid makes me think of Mind Flayers or Admiral Ackbar. WTF? How does this thing walk?

Gouda: Metamage knight.

Chronos
2008-02-16, 11:19 PM
...and doesn't lack anything I consider essential such as hands.Just for the record, it should be noted that couatls can change into a humanoid form at will, if hands are ever really important. Granted, this takes away the bite and wings. So unlike lantern archons, a couatl can actually smack smart-alecks.

Not trying to influence your vote, though... If the caster-level shuffling isn't too cheesy for your taste, Action! does work out very nicely.

Annarrkkii
2008-02-16, 11:28 PM
I think Micro Zorro would have deserved a lot more votes if I'd remembered to fit in Arcane Strike, though (somehow; I'm not sure where, as he's pretty feat-starved).

Flaws! Yay cheese points.

Yeah, the "Huh?" category was the one I was hoping for. I just like the idea of a raging bear throwing spells around.

Draz74
2008-02-17, 01:38 AM
Flaws! Yay cheese points.

How many cheese points is a third flaw? Do they scale on the Fibonacci sequence or something? (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34 ...)

Also, again not trying to influence votes, but just thought I'd mention:


Action! looks like it could lay down some serious hurt in melee or with spells, has full spellcasting from a good class list (unlike Warmages or Beguilers)

Beguilers have a decent class list, which becomes very much expanded when using Shadowcraft Mage cheese.

Shadow Mask
2008-02-17, 11:28 PM
Greatest Gish: Various Blade Incantagish
Huh?: Spellsquid
Party Animal: Mean, Green, Argent Machine
Gouda: Metamage Knight

Cuddly
2008-02-18, 12:12 AM
Doubling Sneak Attack dice that way doesn't even work. With two classes giving SA, you only gain the benefit of the one giving the larger amount, or if they give the same amount then it doesn't matter, you only get them from one class in any case. Gestalt rules state pretty explicitly that in the case of two classes sharing a class feature, you advance as the faster class.

That's why you stagger arcane trickster and sneak attack fighter for lots of sneak attack dice. Or spellthief.

Chronos
2008-02-18, 01:06 AM
That's why you stagger arcane trickster and sneak attack fighter for lots of sneak attack dice. Or spellthief.Didn't he just say that it doesn't work that way? If you're staggering Arcane Trickster and Sneak Attack Fighter, then you gave up your fighter bonus feats for nothing, because your Sneak Attack will progress at the exact same rate as if you just had Arcane Trickster. Now, you could get Sneak Attack on one side, and Sudden Strike on the other, and those would stack, since they're different class features. But it also wouldn't matter how you staggered them, since they'd stack regardless.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-18, 01:52 PM
I would like to propose that we don't vote for our own build. It would make the voting system unbiased, and quite frankly, voting for yourself is pretty lame.

Umm.. have to disagree here. While you might consider it lame, it's part of the voting system. In fact I would go so far as to say that if you *don't* have the confidence to vote for yourself, why should I vote for you? Do you think the major political candidates ever vote for the other guy?

What's lame is that this is a public vote. You can tell who votes for what, and I already know that Variousblade Incantragish is a lock for Greatist Gish, Huh? will be won by Spellsquid, and Metamage Knight is going to win for Gouda. The only contest my vote will make any difference in is Party Animal, and only if I pick one of Lean, Green, Argent Machine, or Snakes on a Plane.

So I'll vote:

Party Animal - Lean, Green, Argent Machine

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-18, 02:15 PM
Are you suggesting that The Dark Chaos shuffle isn't cheesy?

I'm not. That spot is for assigning 'cheese points' via the contest rules given, and makes no declaration aside from that.

Duke of URL
2008-02-19, 08:22 AM
Congrats to the winners:

Greatest Gish: "Variousblade Incantagish" (5 out of 10 votes cast)
Huh?: "Spellsquid" (5 out of 11)
Party Animal: "Mean, Green, Argent Machine" (4 out of 11)
Gouda: "Metamage Knight" (8 out of 11)

Thanks to all who entered and voted.

expirement10K14
2008-02-19, 08:50 AM
Good job everyone. I feel accomplished just for getting a vote on my first ever gestalt build that wasn't horribly suckish.

Squash Monster
2008-02-19, 08:21 PM
Yay. Thanks for all the votes everyone.

And a quick question: how often are these contests posted? Weekly? Biweekly?

Chronos
2008-02-19, 10:17 PM
Well played, Shadow Mask. It was a pleasure competing with you.

Shadow Mask
2008-02-20, 12:56 AM
To you too Chronos; I shake you warmly by the e-hand.

Thankyou to everyone who voted for my build - especially as it was my first build that I have entered into a competition. It's nice to know that I'm halfway-decent :smalltongue:.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-20, 04:44 AM
Thanks to everyone that voted! It's gouda to brie noticed, especially if it is for building a cheddar Gish! You are simply the cheese knees! :smallwink:







...
Ok, that was bad. I apologize to anyone that read those horrible puns. :smalleek: