Naruto vs Sauron [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

EvilElitest

2008-02-05, 10:42 PM

Anyways, the fight

Nautro- Ah Sauron, your rein of terror ends here
Sauron- Um
Nautro-I will prove that the power of friendship and happiness can prevail
Sauron- What?
Naurto- With my friends to back me, i will pull through any fight, believe it
Sauron- Why the hell should i care?
Naurto- what
Sauron- Your a kid, an immature one at that, who sounds like you haven't gone through puberty, wearing freaking orange and releying on the power of friendship against Me?
Nautro- well the lich king was doing it, so i need to do so so i can become the best ninja ever
the lich king was a worthy foe, but you are just insulting everyone i've fought now. Now i'm pissed
Nautro- Bring it on, i have the power of friendship to help me
Sauron morphs into Sakura
Nautro- what
Sauorn- I'm not pulling punches you fool, you've asked for pain
Sauron launches himself forward in an inhumannly fast way, Naurto uses his ninja problems to just get way, and Sauron changes into Kakashi
Nautro- What are you doing
Sauron- I'm forcing you to fight everybody you love, and as your aren't as smart as edward elric, i'm going to kick your ass
Naurto- But, how can you
Sauron uses null magic to reduce Naurto's powers, then breaks some ribs
Sauron- Because i'm not like the sad pathetic little villains of your world, i don't play fair, and i don't play dumb. i play to win, and i intent to do so in the most cruel and painful way possible
Nautro- I must use the...
Sauron turns into the LK and breaks Naurto's nose
Sauron- Going to what? Pull some sort of suprise on me? Hope to hurt me? your out of your league kid, i'm not some sort of pansy who's plans can get ruined by some hyperactive kid, i'm Sauron the Great, Lord of the Rings, Gorgoroth the Cruel, the Dark Lord of Mordor, and Commander of Morgoth. I won't lose to some pathetic kid with a bloated ego
Naruto- Your one to talk, your egotistical as hell
Sauron uses fear to force him into a rolled up ball
Sauron- Because i earned it, i didn't need Mary Sue powers to get to where i am now
Naruto- I must fight back, for my friends
Sauron turns into Gaara and breaks leg
Sauron- your friends are meaningless, friendship means nothing. THe only true power in this world is order, power, fear, and despair. People are tools to be corrupted, and i or my master will lead the way
Naurto- I can't let you do this
Saruon- I don't care (hit him with a mace)
Nautro turns into a fox- I'll
Sauron touches it, it burst into flames, Naurto turns back
Sauron- You'll what, defeat me with the power of love
naruto- Love and friendship mean everthing, you can't fight against them
Sauron- Ah by i can (Breaks another leg, assumes in talking form) now lets be honest here, you don't have a chance. I'll give you one chance to surrender
Naruto- You coward, you can't defeat the power of love
Sauron- Oh but i will, i'll break you down to your bear material, i'll reduce your soul to nothing then build it up again, until you are nothing but a pathetic slime not worthy even of my torture.
Naruto- I can't die here, i need to
Sauron- Ah but you can, because guess what, life isn't fair. And no matter how much you whine and complain, you can't change the fact that you are whinny, pathetic, disgusting spoiled brat who things everything in the world should follow your rules
Naruto- You'll never win, the power of
Sauron- Shut up already
(Drives his hand through Naurto's chest, rips out his heart, and dominates his soul with his power and dooming him to an enterinity in damnation

Really, what the hell kinda of statement is that. On the who can beat Sauron thread?
from
EE

Tengu

2008-02-05, 10:46 PM

Sauron uses fear to force him into a fertile position

:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

LordVader

2008-02-05, 10:46 PM

Plug in "Believe it!" after every statement, and there you go. :smallbiggrin:

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-05, 10:47 PM

Plug in "Believe it!" after every statement, and there you go. :smallbiggrin:

Yea see you people are biased towards the crappier english version, the Japanese version is a hell of a lot better (especially the new Shippuuden seasons)

EvilElitest

2008-02-05, 10:51 PM

Yea see you people are biased towards the crappier english version, the Japanese version is a hell of a lot better (especially the new Shippuuden seasons)

Even then, at best Naurto gets a 70% out of a hundred, there is nothing on that show that is really well written
from
EE

tyckspoon

2008-02-05, 10:55 PM

*points at EE's post* Ok, I know that was supposed to be funny, but.. this stuff? This is what people are thinking of when they complain about Sauron fanboyism. You're not giving Naruto a fair chance here. I don't think he has the mental fortitude to stand up to Sauron (except in a Power of Love/I'm The Hero!! way, which is exactly as potent as it needs to be at any one time..), but in a straight physical fight? I'm betting on Naruto, especially the recent manga version. He's superhumanly strong, fast, and durable (so basically the standard set of Fighting Shounen Protagonist attributes, there.) He can create a functionally limitless number of copies of himself that can all fight at near-full capacity. He has an attack that rips things to tiny little bits on the cellular level. And that's all without directly invoking the Kyuubi (who is a fire spirit itself, by the way- I imagine Sauron and Kyuubi would be equally unable to immolate each other.)

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-05, 10:56 PM

Even then, at best Naurto gets a 70% out of a hundred, there is nothing on that show that is really well written
from
EE

I dunno, I thought his easily destroying a massive chunk of a forest with only five of his nine tails speaks of the terrifying power the Kyuubi wields and that Naruto can show if he ever truly had need (and I think this qualifies)

Callos_DeTerran

2008-02-05, 11:01 PM

Even then, at best Naurto gets a 70% out of a hundred, there is nothing on that show that is really well written
from
EE

A. I could say the same for Lord of the Rings, but that doesn't mean I make up threads like this. Really, was this all that necessary? You don't like Naruto, wonderful. Threads like this are the reason people complain about vs. threads in the first place.

B. Naruto doesn't use the tired ol' 'power of friendship' trope of other anime. He's done some things because friends were in danger but he never once even claimed the whole power of friendship spiel. Also if he managed to beat up on Sasuke (y'know...when there was much more brotherly feelings towards each other) then shape-shifting into people he likes won't do crap. Anyway I'm going to stay out of this whole stupid mess after this, otherwise I'm going to degenerate to name-calling and blatant sarcasm to convey the irritation I'm feeling right now.

EvilElitest

2008-02-05, 11:05 PM

points at EE's post* Ok, I know that was supposed to be funny, but.. this stuff? This is what people are thinking of when they complain about Sauron fanboyism.
you do realize that, and pretty much all of this thread are sarcasim right? If you want an honest battle go ahead, i wasn't aiming for that, but in all honesty, Naurto would get screwed.

A. I could say the same for Lord of the Rings, but that doesn't mean I make up threads like this. Really, was this all that necessary? You don't like Naruto, wonderful. Threads like this are the reason people complain about vs. threads in the first place.

I didn't make a thread like this ether, i'm just going along with the fell. Are we suppose to be making an honest argument here?

B. Naruto doesn't use the tired ol' 'power of friendship' trope of other anime. He's done some things because friends were in danger but he never once even claimed the whole power of friendship spiel. Also if he managed to beat up on Sasuke (y'know...when there was much more brotherly feelings towards each other) then shape-shifting into people he likes won't do crap. Anyway I'm going to stay out of this whole stupid mess after this, otherwise I'm going to degenerate to name-calling and blatant sarcasm to convey the irritation I'm feeling right now.

Yes he has, Naurto is so over done its formulaic. I mean, what the hell does he stand for? That being a total mary sue makes you awesome? Hell, teh character Eragon annoys me less

If you want an honest vs. thread fine, but to be honest, it doesn't seem to be a challenge. Voldemort vs. Naruto would be better

from
EE

Obrysii

2008-02-05, 11:12 PM

Actually, Naruto isn't about the power of friendship. It's about the power of never giving up. "...and I never go back on my word. That's my nindou - my ninja way!" is Naruto's motto, after all.

Naruto at Four Tails can level a forest. The Kyuubi by itself can topple mountains "with a single tailswipe" ... In LotR terms, it is at least a maiar if not more powerful. It is likely that the Ring would hold any influence over it.

And Naruto does not have a blatant lust for power - he wants to earn it. The Ring might not have any real effect on him, either.

I'll give it to Sauron, though. Nigh-limitless resources = win against a limited-endurance creature like Naruto.

Against Gaara, well - that's another story.

nothingclever

2008-02-05, 11:12 PM

Even though I think the show is is utter crap I still believe he may have a chance because having skimmed his wiki and unfortunately seen a few episodes he looks pretty strong now. He may have the power to simply stay out of Sauron's range forever making infinite copies of himself while nuking him with his new special attack over and over again in his fox form.

If Sauron can use some ranged attack on him such as force choking using his mind and home in on the real Naruto then sure he could win but otherwise I don't think so.

Characters may be terrible and have stupid powers like violent diarrhea that can destroy anything but so long as they are that strong the character's personality or outfit doesn't really matter.

EvilElitest

2008-02-05, 11:15 PM

And Naruto does not have a blatant lust for power - he wants to earn it. The Ring might not have any real effect on him, either

The ring works on everybody, no matter who they are. Naruto would most likely start to manifest traits of arrogance or hubris. He certainly would become more rash and self confident with his own power

Also, Sauron has brains, something that Naroto really does in fact lack
from
EE

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-05, 11:17 PM

The ring works on everybody, no matter who they are. Naruto would most likely start to manifest traits of arrogance or hubris. He certainly would become more rash and self confident with his own power

Also, Sauron has brains, something that Naroto really does in fact lack
from
EE

Yea, but think about it like this, the more pissed off he his the faster he goes all nine-tails, likely if he got the ring and got all arrogant he would get really pissed off, and at some point the Kyuubi would take over, and the Kyuubi is really old and, while rather nasty and bloodthirsty, is also very smart.

EvilElitest

2008-02-05, 11:21 PM

Yea, but think about it like this, the more pissed off he his the faster he goes all nine-tails, likely if he got the ring and got all arrogant he would get really pissed off, and at some point the Kyuubi would take over, and the Kyuubi is really old and, while rather nasty and bloodthirsty, is also very smart.

Ok, then Kyuubi who is smarter would have more corruption problems

Also both Kyuubi and Naruto are aggressive, while Sauron can play defensive and cunning. He'd just turn into something nasty and maul him, throw in fear aura and burning touch and he is good
from
EE

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-05, 11:26 PM

Ok, then Kyuubi who is smarter would have more corruption problems

Also both Kyuubi and Naruto are aggressive, while Sauron can play defensive and cunning. He'd just turn into something nasty and maul him, throw in fear aura and burning touch and he is good
from
EE

Well, theres not a hell of a lot you can offer the Kyuubi, I really think he's more powerful than Sauron and to be frank, he's a giant frickin fox, what would he want a Ring for, and while he's aggressive remember he's also SMART.

nothingclever

2008-02-05, 11:27 PM

How does he beat hundreds of copies flying/jumping/whatever all around him (which he can make more of whenever necessary) and pelting him with Naruto's new super attack? That's supposedly what he does now. He might not need the giant fox transformation.

Edit:
Blinding rage probably negates fear aura.
Naruto's fox transformation is shape shifting so Sauron isn't the only one changing into a better form.
A burning elemental aspect giant fox is not guaranteed to be burned by Sauron's flames.
Paranoia and arrogance both don't mean you have to fight badly either. You might simply decide to hit whoever you are fighting with everything you have non stop which might be the best strategy anyway.

EvilElitest

2008-02-05, 11:27 PM

Well, theres not a hell of a lot you can offer the Kyuubi, I really think he's more powerful than Sauron and to be frank, he's a giant frickin fox, what would he want a Ring for, and while he's aggressive remember he's also SMART.

1. He can become arrogent, paranoid, exct
2. Sauron only needs to touch him, he bursts into flames
3. Every intellegent being wants teh ring
4. How smart? he isn't stupid he he doesn't strike me as the new Napoleon
5. Fear aura? Shape shifting? Ect?
from
EE

Executor

2008-02-05, 11:30 PM

So giant fox of nine tails is more powerful than Sauron... the same Sauron who wrestles with the divine God of Hounds... the same Sauron who makes Luthien faint with his very presence (Luthien, who could dance around in the same room as Middle Earth's Satan)... the same Sauron who survived not one but two magical crossfires between the gods, the sort of crossfires that dry up seas, sink continents and throw around tectonic plates. Sauron built a fortress that survived a direct assault by the Valar, Sauron was so powerful that the Valar determined that if they attacked him in Barad-dur, the ensuing magical battle would destroy Middle-earth entirely, like the fallout of a couple million thermonuclear bombs. This guy is powerful like you wouldn't believe. But not just powerful, clever and cunning. Like EE said, he plays to win and intends to do so in the most painful and cruel way for you.

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-05, 11:32 PM

Yes a giant fox which destroyed nations with casual ease FOR ENTERTAINMENT, I think he has a shot.

EvilElitest

2008-02-05, 11:34 PM

Yes a giant fox which destroyed nations with casual ease FOR ENTERTAINMENT, I think he has a shot.

And Sauron morgul shanks his nine tailed......bottom.

from
EE

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-05, 11:36 PM

And Sauron morgul shanks his nine tailed......bottom.

from
EE

http://forum.spacebattles.com/forumimg/smilies//rolleyes.gif
you people underestimate him just because you're seemingly fanatically devoted to Sauron and don't like Naruto.

heres the bit on the Kyuubi from the narutowiki http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kyuubi

EvilElitest

2008-02-05, 11:43 PM

http://forum.spacebattles.com/forumimg/smilies//rolleyes.gif
you people underestimate him just because you're seemingly fanatically devoted to Sauron and don't like Naruto.

No, thats not it. I'm not fan of Cthulu and i think he could kill Sauron without a problem, along with a few other fantasy characters. The deal here is taht i see nothing that impresses me here. Sauron just needs to touch fox dude and he dies, Sauron could freaking turn into fox dude, Sauron could use fear, despair, plague, corruption, or just magic. I mean, what can he do? Sauron could simply use his fear and they touch him, or turn into a dragon. What can he do to counter taht. Also you just said he destroys small nations for fun (though the nations in Naurto verse are notably small) for fun, that isn't a good demonstration of power
from
EE

Squidmaster

2008-02-05, 11:50 PM

Yes a giant fox which destroyed nations with casual ease FOR ENTERTAINMENT, I think he has a shot.

But can he survive a country being droped on top of him?
I don't think an actual battle would even happen. This would happen (or somthing like it.)
Naruto walks through the woods to Sauron. Naruto steps in bear trap set by random hunters, not noticing it because he is an idiot. Sauron walks up.
Naruto:Help me
Sauron:But this is so much more entertaining.
Naruto bleeds to death, Sauron goes to find new thing to amuse himself.
Even in a real fight, ninja boy doesnt stand a chance.

tyckspoon

2008-02-06, 12:02 AM

Even in a real fight, ninja boy doesnt stand a chance.

I think this is true, but it's not because Naruto and/or Kyuubi lacks for physical power. It's my opinion that they can overwhelm Sauron in a comparison of raw physical power. The failure point is that they're notably weak to mental coercion- Naruto sucks at genjutsu and Kyuubi has been controlled by outside influences before. They're weak in a point where Sauron is strong, which is never a good thing for a side's chances. The passive effects of his presence shouldn't drive them off, but when Sauron focuses his power on actually trying to attack their spirits.. well, as Pharaoh says: MIND CRUSH!! *screen turns negative and shatters*

Bariko

2008-02-06, 12:38 AM

This fight depends entirely on one, defining thing. Home field advantage.

In most versus situations, the combatant's universes can be at least somewhat reconciled, or similar. But when you're comparing the Narutoverse with Tolkien's writing you're dealing with entirely different things. Narutoverse is your typical anime, Shonen Jump universe, where amazing powers are commonplace, and powerful people are able to flatten countries, etc.. etc... But Tolkien wrote his books as basically an alternate mythology to the real world. Thusly, the most powerful people, the Aragorns, Boromirs, etc... are simply incredible regular people. I read an article somewhere which said that anybody in the LoTR universe could be statted as a level 5 DnD character. Tops. Even Gandalf would have been difficult to stat as a 10th level, and he was divine.

If you bring Naruto to the LoTR universe, he's got no chance whatsoever to beat Sauron in a fight. But if you reverse it, then it's an entirely different ballgame. If that was the case, then you've got tons of people with powers which could rival Sauron's, and there's a good chance Naruto could win.

Just my two cents. And there's the fact that Naruto and the fox are weaker with mental based attacks than physical to consider too.

Matar

2008-02-06, 12:57 AM

Rutee

2008-02-06, 12:59 AM

http://forum.spacebattles.com/forumimg/smilies//rolleyes.gif
you people underestimate him just because you're seemingly fanatically devoted to Sauron and don't like Naruto.

It's amazing, isn't it. Who was it that said that the Legend of the Rings: Third Age characters would lose to Sauron in a Versus Thread, despite beating him in their game? They were pretty spot on.

Poison_Fish

2008-02-06, 03:50 AM

You know, I'm late to this thread, but looking at Tengu's quote really brightened up my day.

I just fear thinking of the children.

Ubiq

2008-02-06, 03:55 AM

LoTR universe, he's got no chance whatsoever to beat Sauron in a fight. But if you reverse it, then it's an entirely different ballgame. If that was the case, then you've got tons of people with powers which could rival Sauron's, and there's a good chance Naruto could win.

Considering Sauron's usual methods, such a situation probably wouldn't be that big a problem for him in the long run. The minute that he realizes that numerous people pose a threat to him is likely the minute that Sauron either goes underground or enters some lord's service to buy some time.

Sooner or later, he's going to figure out that all he has to do is simply wait out his enemies. Unlike his fellow Maiar and his Elven rivals, all of his potential rivals in the Naruto universe are eventually going to drop dead from old age. In the meantime, Sauron can spend his time building up Kagekagure, or whatever he decides to call it.

Tengu

2008-02-06, 07:03 AM

You know, I'm late to this thread, but looking at Tengu's quote really brightened up my day.

I just fear thinking of the children.

Glad to help - now someone must make such a slashfic. Or a slashart.

nothingclever

2008-02-06, 07:24 AM

This debate is garbage and just shows how some people clearly are biased towards their favorite characters and won't listen to anyone else.

Sauron shapeshifting probably doesn't matter because Naruto's form looks as large as mountains. Mountains can of course be of almost any size but I'd figure he's still pretty big.

This whole one touch and he dies thing is also bs and makes the user sound like he's 5. "NUh-UH HE TOUCHES GUY AND HE DIES NO TOUCH BACKS!"

Since when is Sauron's touch instant kill to everything? How does he even do it and what is the power used?

Can people not wrap their minds around the idea that Naruto is a character of great power far beyond most Middle Earth characters? Most characters are mortals who are at best really really good at fighting. Being really good at fighting doesn't stop you from being stepped on by a giant fox or incinerated by an attack with a massive range and area of cover. Naruto would easily destroy armies of soldiers and probably better than Sauron.

Even if Sauron can win by mental control I still think comparing other things would be worth doing. This whole argument sounds like people being bitter over that dumb "Who can beat Sauron?" thread. "Oh no you don't! Sauron wins this time! He has to cuz he's cooler and has really long books written about him with many many adjectives describing how awesome his fighting is!"

Also saying Cthulu can beat Sauron doesn't stop you from being biased at all. From what I've heard of Cthulu he's a god of the universe itself who makes heads explode when you try to use his magic. He is most likely able to destroy planets if he wanted to but he doesn't because he is either resting/sealed away/only manifesting part of his power in our world while the rest is in another. Plus I'm pretty sure EE said Death Note was genius. lawl gg

LBO

2008-02-06, 07:37 AM

Obrysii

2008-02-06, 07:48 AM

2. Sauron only needs to touch him, he bursts into flames

Yes. Fire is going to hurt a fire demon .... or a demon whose chakra is so intense that even when using a human body as its frame and only drawing out 4 out of 9 tails' worth of power that no sword can hurt it ...

3. Every intellegent being wants teh ring

You wanna explain Tom Bombadil for us?

LBO

2008-02-06, 07:58 AM

3. Every intellegent being wants teh ring
You wanna explain Tom Bombadil for us?
"Intelligent".

Oslecamo

2008-02-06, 08:23 AM

Sauron wins, but not because of his uber powers.

He disguises himself as a good guy and quickly gets Naruto's friendship, then works his way to get some ritual to suck nine tails power into itself,or just stab Naruto while he sleeps.

Altough Naruto is very powerfull, he's just too dumb, and the only reason he's alive it's because he lives in a world where everuone is an idiot one way or another. The villains are idiots, the good guys are idiots, no wonder progress is completely stalled.

Sauron would have an evilgasm if he managed to reach Naruto's world. He would slowly corrupt all those mighty ninjas, and then use them to cover the land in darkness.

Mind you, Sauron was defeated by a fat little creature whitout any exceptional quality and the power of mercy.

Keep watch for the giants and you'll be eaten by the ants, nuff said.

Lucikly there are no ants in Naruto's world. Everybody is the OMGPWRNZ.

EDIT:Just for the fun, le'ts rewrite LOTR movie with Naruto characters:

Fellowship:
Frodo-Naruto
Sam-Hinata(timid,the only one who would follow Naruto to the depths of hell)
Boromir-Sasuke(wants power to avenge family. At any costs)
Merry-dog boy, can't remember his name, filler character.
Pippin-insect boy, see above.
Legolas-Hinata's brother, great eyes and more gracious fighting.
Gimli-Rock Lee, brutish melee guy
Aragorn-Kakashi. Great fighter and actually has some brains.
Gandalf-eer, the 4th Hokage? Dies bravely fighting alone against mighty enemy and comes back as Tsunade.

Gollum-Gaara, lonely guy as strong as Naruto wich is completely madened.

Sauruman-Orochimaru, betrayer who tries to get all for himself and great fan of progress.

Sauron ends up winning as Naruto, instead of crawlingand throwing the ring to the volcano makes a lot of rackus and challenges him to a 1 to 1 fight and ends up overrun by Sauron's minions.

Obrysii

2008-02-06, 09:05 AM

Lucikly there are no ants in Naruto's world. Everybody is the OMGPWRNZ.

Naruto himself is certainly an ant - he's ignored or laughed at as a failure until the post-time skip, where his training with the strongest living ninja in the village has made him something more than a laughing stock.

Gandalf-eer, the 4th Hokage? Dies bravely fighting alone against mighty enemy and comes back as Tsunade.

It'd be the Third Hokage. Dies bravely to protect those dearest to him: the entire village.

Sauron ends up winning as Naruto, instead of crawlingand throwing the ring to the volcano makes a lot of rackus and challenges him to a 1 to 1 fight and ends up overrun by Sauron's minions.

Here's the key. While there seems to be a great deal of hate on this forum for Naruto, I think most people are judging it based on the first season of the dub.

For those that have watched the series beyond that, they learn that:
1. Yes, Naruto is an idiot.
2. Naruto is a small fry compared to a large number of other people
3. Just because the title character's an idiot doesn't make the other characters idiots as well.

And on a whole, this argument is pretty tasteless. It starts out blatantly biased and will end blatantly biased. The two series are completely incompatible, and they are very different genres.

Oslecamo

2008-02-06, 09:39 AM

First, I've watched around 200 episodes. Really don't know wich seasons that is.

Well, let's see again how stupid they are:

1-Tsunada, the village Hokage, can be bribered with candy.

2-The ninjas who betray their villages cut their own symbols and then wear them this way so everybdy knowsthey are traitors.

3-The water ninja wich tries to disguise as Naruto doesn't know the diference between left and right.

4-The whole sand country can't notice that their Hokage has been murdered and substituted.

5-Orochimaru always loses time making big speeches instead of killing the peoples he hates so much when he gets the chance.

6-Naruto's master is a perverted drunk.

7-The Leaf village elite soldiers seem to be all weaker than Naruto and pals.

8-Actually, said elite ninjas seem to be able to only get themselves slaughtered by any and every enemy that appears, forcing Naruto and pals to save the day.

9-Orochimaru's elite guard isn't any smarter. They split up one by one instead of ganking up on Naruto's team and finishing them off for sure as quickly as possible, giving time to the sand people to arrive.

10-Orochimaru sacrifices minions by the hundreds just to see wich one of them is stronger. I'm pretty sure if he didn't sacrifice so many minions so lightly he would have an army big enough to defeat everyone else by now.

11-One would expact that Hinata would stop being timid after so many time, but no. It starts geting annoying after the first 100 episodes.

12-Sakura can easily smack Naruto around, but when the bad guys appears, 90% of the time she doesn't do anything usefull. I heard that later in the series she actually starts doing anything, but still...

13-Sasuke is so emo it also gets annoying. She has the village girls all over him, Kakashi as his personal trainer and plenty of oportunities to train. Still he's completely blinded by his desire of revenge againsthis brother, and decides the best course of action is to sell his soul to Orochimaru. Doesn'the notice that his brother also sold his soul for power?

14-Rock Lee and his master. No need for explanations I think.

The closest thing to smart in the series is the shaddow biding kid, but he's lazy, as he himself says.

Anyway, the title was Narutovs Sauron, and if we all agree that Naruto is an idiot, then I think we can agree that Naruto loses.

GoC

2008-02-06, 09:52 AM

I don't know about you but to me it sounds like the OP is almost trolling...

Anyway I once asked a friend about Narutu's powers and though I hate Narutu as much as the next man Id give him a clear victory.

EE: I can add "doesn't back up his points" to my list::smalltongue:

(Drives his hand through Naurto's chest, rips out his heart, and dominates his soul with his power and dooming him to an enterinity in damnation

I was completely unaware Sauron was strong enough to lift up appartment blocks with one finger...:smallamused:

But can he survive a country being droped on top of him?
This was actualy a misunderstanding that was later propogated by Sauron converts. Sauron didn't survive, he just died and built himself a new body.

nothingclever: Sauron's touch attack is used once and results in burning someone to crisp. It might not work on someone with resistance or immunity to fire.

Evereyone: Stop debating the ring. It only works if it isn't a straight-up fight or against someone with pathetic will (EE conceded this).

As the OP is clearly not intending a serious debate and will not clear this up, I vote this be a arena fight otherwise Narutu will get creamed with superior psycology and diplomacy.

Oslecamo

2008-02-06, 10:06 AM

Problem is, Sauron would only acept an arena fight if there was no other single choice possible.

He only fighted in that particular battle because the human/elf alliance was very strong and he feared his orcs and other monsters wouldn't be enough against the elvish and human elite. So he went to the fight himself, and we all know how that ended:

Sauron:Ok, I attack the human king, +300 to hit, 500 damage.
DM:Ok, the king falls.
Sauron:Use cleave to attack the elf king
DM:Ok, the elf king falls. Isildur, your turn.
Isildur:I try to catch my father's sword.
Sauron:I use my swift sundering power to destroy the sword. 400 damage.
DM:The sword breacks into tiny pieces. sauron, your turn.
Sauron:Now I'll grapple him to death, muahahaha.
Isildur:Wait, I have close combat quarters, I get an attack of oportunity!
Sauron:Ok, I have an AC of 150 and over 2000 HP.
Isildur:I use the attack of oportunity to try to sunder the finger carrying the ring!
Sauron:Can you do that?
DM:You would need a magical weapon to be able to hurt the ring.
Isildur:I use the pieces of my father's sword.
DM:Ok, but you'll need to roll a 20 with the AC of Sauron.
Isildur rolls 20
Sauron:******. You'll pay for this! I can still kill you, ring or no ring!
Isildur:Haha, but thanks to the rules you discussed with teh DM when creating that uber ring, you lose your material body if youn lose the ring!
Dm:He's right. You explode in a magnificent explosion.
Sauron:NOOOOOOOO!

EDIT:Hmm, if we make the arena, can Sauron bring the ring to himself? whitout it, he can't even get a material body after all.

GoC

2008-02-06, 10:16 AM

Sauron:Ok, I attack the human king, +300 to hit, 500 damage.
DM:Ok, the king falls.
Sauron:Use cleave to attack the elf king
DM:Ok, the elf king falls. Isildur, your turn.
Isildur:I try to catch my father's sword.
Sauron:I use my swift sundering power to destroy the sword. 400 damage.
DM:The sword breacks into tiny pieces. sauron, your turn.
Sauron:Now I'll grapple him to death, muahahaha.
Isildur:Wait, I have close combat quarters, I get an attack of oportunity!
Sauron:Ok, I have an AC of 150 and over 2000 HP.
Isildur:I use the attack of oportunity to try to sunder the finger carrying the ring!
Sauron:Can you do that?
DM:You would need a magical weapon to be able to hurt the ring.
Isildur:I use the pieces of my father's sword.
DM:Ok, but you'll need to roll a 20 with the AC of Sauron.
Isildur rolls 20
Sauron:******. You'll pay for this! I can still kill you, ring or no ring!
Isildur:Haha, but thanks to the rules you discussed with teh DM when creating that uber ring, you lose your material body if youn lose the ring!
Dm:He's right. You explode in a magnificent explosion.
Sauron:NOOOOOOOO!
That only happens in the movies, in the book he's killed by being stabbed with pointy objects and then Isilur cuts the ring off his dead body.

EvilElitest

2008-02-06, 11:12 AM

Naruto wins.

Easy.

It's like saying Goku Vs Sauron. It's just dumb. I freaking hate Naruto, and I understand he wins (Then again, im not a Sauron Fan-boy).

Naruto can shoot freaking 50 foots blasts of energy at people. He can create like, 1000+ clones. Rassangen, ect. He can move faster then the eye can see, ect...

Bleh. Silly fight, and Naruto wins.

didn't you call me a fanboy, what is this?

It's amazing, isn't it. Who was it that said that the Legend of the Rings: Third Age characters would lose to Sauron in a Versus Thread, despite beating him in their game? They were pretty spot on.
The guys from the Third Age game fought the much weaker movie version of Sauron, who is pretty much a giant eye ball (by the by, did anyone else understand how they got all the way over to the Dark Tower from Gondor?

Sauron shapeshifting probably doesn't matter because Naruto's form looks as large as mountains. Mountains can of course be of almost any size but I'd figure he's still pretty big.
Tale of Beron, Sauron shows up some really badass shape shifting, but losses do to prophecy. I tried thinking up limits, but Walking Target beat me

Since when is Sauron's touch instant kill to everything? How does he even do it and what is the power used?
last alliance of men and Elves, Gil-ad king of the elves is grabbed by Sauron and burns into a smoldering crisp.

Also saying Cthulu can beat Sauron doesn't stop you from being biased at all. From what I've heard of Cthulu he's a god of the universe itself who makes heads explode when you try to use his magic. He is most likely able to destroy planets if he wanted to but he doesn't because he is either resting/sealed away/only manifesting part of his power in our world while the rest is in another. Plus I'm pretty sure EE said Death Note was genius. lawl gg

Who can beat Cthulu by the way? Another elder evil
And what about death note?
from
EE

Oslecamo

2008-02-06, 12:21 PM

That only happens in the movies, in the book he's killed by being stabbed with pointy objects and then Isilur cuts the ring off his dead body.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sauron still manages to kill the main human and elf kings before going down, and Isildur cuts the ring with his father's broken sword, right?

Because I do remember the broken sword being in Aragorn's possession on the book, wich means it was pretty important for him to have kept it all that time.

Obrysii

2008-02-06, 12:54 PM

Here's how it'd go down in an arena-style fight. The Powers That Be have forced this event, so Sauron has no choice to do his usual style.

Naruto wins initiative due to killer Dex and mass clones himself.

Sauron draws out his great mace, and each swipe causes tons of the clones to poof! .

After Naruto figures out this strategy won't work, and burns up his chakra doing the clones, he'd try a rasengan. But of course, it'll fail to make contact (it would be quite dangerous if it did hit - it grinds through pretty much any material if it makes contact long enough).

Once that's done, the demon fox begins to pour out its chakra ... and again, the clone strategy (Naruto is, of course, stupid so he tries it again with kyuubi powered clones to the same result).

It is only when Naruto draws out the "full" power of the Kyuubi (from what we've seen), shaping into the four-tailed form, does he actually stand any real chance. Able to move faster than even the fully-powered-up Sharingan can see, it's safe to assume that he moves at the edge or even beyond Sauron's maiar-granted sight.

The blood shield of Chakra protects him from just about any attack, I'd say it ends in a draw unless he manages to break the One Ring, since Sauron can always reform if it remains intact.

Ultimately, Naruto would win the battle but lose the war, so to speak. Drawing that kind of power out of the demon fox taxes his body to the limit, and if drawn into a long battle could kill him. Sauron has that whole phylactery/lich thing going on, and can't truly be defeated unless the One Ring can be destroyed. Naruto is mortal, and using his 'ultimate' power costs him portions of his lifespan.

Lawliet

2008-02-06, 01:21 PM

God, this thread is ridiculous.
I mean, Naruto alone would destroy Sauron in like, 1 minute.

The fight begins, Naruto run towards Sauron, Sauron look at his clothes and dies of laughter.
Ok, just kidding, but seriously, Sauron is a freakin Maiar, Naruto is a teanager with bright clothes.
He doesn't have much experience in battle, Sauron, well he controls thousands of orcs, knows war tactics, has the godamned ring of power, and would corrupt Naruto in 10 seconds.
If that's not the case, because of something like, plot shield or whatever, Kyuubi would be corrupted easily.
Without Kyuubi, Naruto can't beat even some villains in his own anime, what could possibly give him strenght to beat Sauron...

And no, i'm not a Naruto hater, actually, watched every episode release until Shippuden 13, and read all the manga chapters release so far.
I just think that he doens't stand a chance... Surprises me that some people actually believe in him winning, but hey, it's not my business xD

Obrysii

2008-02-06, 01:39 PM

I just think that he doens't stand a chance... Surprises me that some people actually believe in him winning, but hey, it's not my business xD

I agree. The only way he can win a battle (but not a war) against Sauron is to go to 4-tailed Kyuubi powerup or greater. By himself, he's toast.

GoC

2008-02-06, 02:20 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sauron still manages to kill the main human and elf kings before going down, and Isildur cuts the ring with his father's broken sword, right?

Because I do remember the broken sword being in Aragorn's possession on the book, wich means it was pretty important for him to have kept it all that time.

Yes to the first paragraph.
Yep, it's a family heirloom. And quite apart from the sentimental/tradicional/heritige value it's a very good sword with a prophesy attached to it.

Agreed that Sauron with the ring can only be defeated if the ring's destroyed but I recomend we use pre-ring Sauron as it avoids the messy corruption business and he's physicaly more powerful (at least until he starts dying).

EvilElitest

2008-02-06, 05:09 PM

GoC, you call me crazy?

I was completely unaware Sauron was strong enough to lift up appartment blocks with one finger...

Um, in case you haven't noticed, Naruto isn't an apartment building. He is about as smart sadly. I mean my story was sarcasm, but what?

This was actualy a misunderstanding that was later propogated by Sauron converts. Sauron didn't survive, he just died and built himself a new body.

He was however crushed under some of the world's tetonci plates. Lost his body through

nothingclever: Sauron's touch attack is used once and results in burning someone to crisp. It might not work on someone with resistance or immunity to fire.
naruto has fire immunity?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sauron still manages to kill the main human and elf kings before going down, and Isildur cuts the ring with his father's broken sword, right?

Because I do remember the broken sword being in Aragorn's possession on the book, wich means it was pretty important for him to have kept it all that time.
Six dudes fight Sauorn, four of them uber super elves, two of them uber super humans. He kills the two most powerful, drives three back, and wounds Isildur who kills him with the now broken sword

The fight begins, Naruto run towards Sauron, Sauron look at his clothes and dies of laughter.
When i read your first sentence, i thought you were a fanbody, then i read this and started coughing up blood. Yeah.........

from
EE

warty goblin

2008-02-06, 05:13 PM

You know, as much as I love LOTR and hate all things anime, I'm just not going to get involved here...I believe my predictions are, after all, already known.:smallwink:

EvilElitest

2008-02-06, 05:16 PM

You know, as much as I love LOTR and hate all things anime, I'm just not going to get involved here...I believe my predictions are, after all, already known.:smallwink:

Come on WG, join, you know your want to all the cool kids are doing it
from
EE

Copacetic

2008-02-06, 05:20 PM

Ha! The thread title made me laugh. Anywho, I'm going to go with the crowd here and say Naruto gets raped, anyway you slice it.

It'd go something along the lines of this:

*Naruto starts heaving and grunting to realease a freaky fox with a tail mutation or whatever the heck he does*

Sauron: ....... What the heck?

*more grunting from Naurto*
Sauron: Ah well, when life gves you lemons....

*Sauron stabs Naruto in chest.*
*Naruto des a grunting, heaving, bleedying death*
*Saron grins*

Fight Over!

Obrysii

2008-02-06, 05:26 PM

naruto has fire immunity?

Yes. He's never been harmed in any major way as a result of fire.

*Sauron stabs Naruto in chest.*
*Naruto des a grunting, heaving, bleedying death*
*Saron grins*

The moment Naruto becomes close to death, which would also result in the Kyuubi's death, the demon fox takes over and brings forth its chakra - causing Naruto to heal from any major injury (stabbed deeply in the shoulder; reduced to -1 or less hp) very rapidly.

Why is there such an anti-Naruto bias on this forum?

EvilElitest

2008-02-06, 05:29 PM

Yes. He's never been harmed in any major way as a result of fire.

Has he been exposed to intense fire ever?

The moment Naruto becomes close to death, which would also result in the Kyuubi's death, the demon fox takes over and brings forth its chakra - causing Naruto to heal from any major injury (stabbed deeply in the shoulder; reduced to -1 or less hp) very rapidly.

Then Sauron kills the fox, i have yet to see something counter the powers i mentioned

Why is there such an anti-Naruto bias on this forum?

Because the show is awful? Am i going out on a limb here? Or because even if you like the show, the character most certainly is
from
EE

Ozymandias

2008-02-06, 05:40 PM

Has he been exposed to intense fire ever?

He was in the vicinity of that Black Body Radiation sun god thing, right? Besides, deus ex machina kawarimi no jutsu means he can poof away if the plot demands (that's the only limit placed on that technique, basically).

Then Sauron kills the fox, i have yet to see something counter the powers i mentioned

The Kyuubi appears to be made of the incorporeal force of chakra, which is roughly (or not so roughly) analogous to magic. It's very likely she would be immune to most physical assaults.

Because the show is awful? Am i going out on a limb here? Or because even if you like the show, the character most certainly is
from
EE

You don't have to act so condescending and, well, elitist. I realize you'll probably laugh it off with "yeah, I act like a jerk, hahaha", but that really doesn't justify such an attitude. The show isn't awful - if it were, it wouldn't fulfill its aim, which is to entertain. It entertains a lot of people. You are not one of them (although you may derive a rather unkind pleasure from criticizing it). Just leave it at that.

GoC

2008-02-06, 06:10 PM

GoC, you call me crazy?
Yep!:smallbiggrin:

Um, in case you haven't noticed, Naruto isn't an apartment building. He is about as smart sadly. I mean my story was sarcasm, but what?
my friend said that one of the characters in the series who's weaker than Narutu lifted up a rock the size of an appartment building with one finger. How accurate this is I don't know.

naruto has fire immunity?
I never said that...

Six dudes fight Sauorn, four of them uber super elves, two of them uber super humans. He kills the two most powerful, drives three back, and wounds Isildur who kills him with the now broken sword
Warning to all: by uber super human he means:
biologicaly human but can perform feats no real human could reallisticaly do. Think Batman after he's been training for 2000 years.

Obrysii

2008-02-06, 06:18 PM

Has he been exposed to intense fire ever?

Yes. When Sasuke blasted him with a cursed-seal powered great fireball jutsu.

Then Sauron kills the fox, i have yet to see something counter the powers i mentioned

The Kyuubi can "flatten mountains" with "a single swipe of one of its tails" ... it is seen as force of nature. Hatred personified.

As far as I know, Sauron cannot level mountains with a single swipe of his, well, anything.

And as Ozymandias said, cut the condescending attitude, please.

Ziggy's_Roady

2008-02-06, 07:26 PM

Paragon Badger

2008-02-06, 07:30 PM

The Kyuubi did require the efforts of pretty much the entire Naruto world to bring down, and the most powerful ninja ever had to sacrifice himself to seal the demon fox, not kill it.

And, as we have seen numerous times, the seal is barely strong enough to contain it.

Sauron required the efforts of an alliance consisting of most of MiddleEarth to bring down... But he was destroyed by more or less a freak accident of losing his ring-finger. Even centuries later, he hadn't had a 'complete' resurrection.

I got to hand it to the big old fox o' doom. As powerful as Sauron is, he can't create natural disasters at his leisure. :smalltongue:

I'm a fan of both. Well...in principle. The authors are both great creative thinkers, but I can't stand how both stories are presented. Now, if Kishimoto could get Peter Jackson to present his story in a bearable matter.

Yes, I implied Tolkein's writing is unbearable. Deal. :smallamused:

Poison_Fish

2008-02-06, 07:30 PM

Lawliet

2008-02-06, 07:43 PM

Because the show is awful? Am i going out on a limb here? Or because even if you like the show, the character most certainly is
from
EE
I wouldn't say it's awful, i mean, it's entertaining, like someone already said. Plus, it has some cool characters, altough i gotta admmit, i hate Naruto so very freakin much (the character).
Of course, i still think Sauron would win, and i still don't like Naruto (again, the character), but i don't think we should discuss the show, i mean, it's Sauron vs Naruto, not LOTR vs. Naruto (the show, this time xD)

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-06, 07:56 PM

What I don't get is how people are confusing
Just for the record I'm not necessarily saying Naruto wins, he'll probably die because Sauron won't do the stupid "anime wait" for him to go all out fox, but if he does its up in the air (though due to the effects of doing this naruto will probably die afterward even if he wins)

(first page) for "zomg naruto pwns sauron, naruto=teh l33t haxxorz" I just wanted to have an actual debate, as opposed to a ridiculous Naruto-hatefest and Sauron-lovefest

Poison_Fish

2008-02-06, 08:00 PM

I know, but that's what it's turning into, I swear, :smallfrown: .

Tengu

2008-02-06, 08:02 PM

Sorry to all the fanboys? I thought this whole thread was basically sauron fanboys vs. naruto fanboys. (From the amount of "I hate anime" and "lolzsauron" to "lolznaruto" and "power levels" that goes on around here).

You're not mistaken. Most of the arguments I can see here are Sauron/Naruto is much stronger than Naruto/Sauron and would kill him in one blow without breaking a sweat, lalx! *fanboygasm*

Rutee

2008-02-06, 08:02 PM

Just for the record I'm not necessarily saying Naruto wins, he'll probably die because Sauron won't do the stupid "anime wait" for him to go all out fox, but if he does its up in the air (though due to the effects of doing this naruto will probably die afterward even if he wins)
Only the genre-savvy break Anime or Monologue wait time. Sauron made The One Ring in the first place; Proof positive he is not genre-savvy.

nothingclever

2008-02-06, 08:05 PM

Choji: Destroy it!
Naruto: No..I don't..think I will..-Puts on the ring-
Sakura: -Jumps out of no where and bits Naruto's finger off-
Choji: -Throws Sakura off out of the Crack of Doom into the magma below-

Sauron: -Sighs- Generic anime characters....

o_o The Bowie fan has spoken!

Sauron would -kill- Naruto before he even got into his little fox thing.

I'm sorry to all you fanboys, but Sauron is the Demi-God of pure, frinkin' evil! He would -kill- Naruto...Naruto wouldn't even beable to attack him, he'd throw a knife, and Sauron would use his weird wind thing to blow it away.

If you have no idea at all what you're posting about why post?
Characters in Naruto generally do not take 6 million years to charge up their attacks. Just because you've heard of animes with characters like that doesn't mean they are all like that.

Plus most people posting are not fanboys because they said they believe Naruto would win despite not liking the show or the character.

You're clearly a Sauron fanboy because you don't have anything to say other than the generic "Sauron wins cuz like he's cooler and what kinda ninja wears orange haha anime is dumb."

Reading about elves, dwarfs, dragons and magic which definitely do not exist in the real world can be seen as stupid or silly too no matter how well you think it is written.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-06, 08:33 PM

This is without question the single most inane fight i have ever seen. ^^

Executor

2008-02-06, 09:10 PM

I agree with Mr. Scaly. I started this as a joke thread, thinking it'd be known and obvious that Sauron would destroy Naruto. Oh god, i've created another Voldemort vs Sauron!

Come on! How can anyone think that a hyperactive orange ninja with some form of nine tailed fox inside him can beat the Dark Lord of Mordor. I mean, in intelligence alone Sauron more than outmatches Naruto. Considering Naruto has all the IQ and emotional range of an apartment block and Sauron is the only Dark Lord to never make me think "Oh my god are you freaking retarded?".

Physically. Okay so the fox can overturn mountain ranges. It took all the best ninjas in the world and the sacrifice of the greatest one ever to seal him up. Okay, it took the dropping of a continent. I mean the Valar threw tectonic plates at Sauron and only suceeded in destroying precisely one of his many forms. It took the six greatest human and elven fighters, ever, to defeat him, and the two best of them died in the doing and three were routed entirely. And all that accomplished was essentially knocking him down for a while. This is a being who wrestles with gods, makes the daughters of elves and gods faint (the same daughter who can dance in front of the Devil), this is a being who deflects lightning bolts shot at him by the High King of the Gods whilst rocking out on top of a temple to LOTR's Satan. Morgoth may have had more in raw power, but Sauron was much more cunning than his master ever was. Naruto simply has no chance. If he isn't stunned by the crushing Shadow of Sauron, as I call it (a fear aura worse than a hundred Nazgul), or burnt to a crisp by Sauron's searing touch, or reduced to naught but a shade of a soul, naked before the Great Eye, then Sauron's immeasurably superior hand-to-hand combat skills will destroy him. Despite his stereotypical anime protagonist "I'll never give up!" attitude, Naruto is REALLY out of his league here.

MeklorIlavator

2008-02-06, 09:18 PM

Rutee

2008-02-06, 09:26 PM

If Naruto is so screwed, how did mortals ever once face Sauron in direct combat when Sauron had his ring? Honestly, even if he'd lose, I'm pretty sure he's buffer then the heroes who /beat/ Sauron.

Also, Omega Wolf Syndrome. Stop it. We're all fragging nerds here, on the internet. None of our hobbies is worse then the other.

Poison_Fish

2008-02-06, 09:31 PM

I'm in agreement with Rutee here. Let's not stratify our nerd groupings here. I'd hate to bring social groupings into play.

Despite his stereotypical anime protagonist "I'll never give up!" attitude, Naruto is REALLY out of his league here.

To be fair, in some universes, the "I'll never give up" attitude ends up destroying/tossing around galaxies.

Executor

2008-02-06, 09:39 PM

Just a simple note, the Valar only assaulted Sauron indirectly. The last time they assembled their war host and when to war was against Sauron's old boss , and Sauron fled and hid in order to not be captured. The reason they don't do this again is that they have some sort of promise that they will not interfere with Middle Earth/the overgod's plan.

And also because the magical fallout from the sort of attack neccesary for them to destroy Sauron would also kill all life on Middle-earth. The sort of mutually assured destruction scenario that kept war cool in the Cold War.

If Naruto is so screwed, how did mortals ever once face Sauron in direct combat when Sauron had his ring? Honestly, even if he'd lose, I'm pretty sure he's buffer then the heroes who /beat/ Sauron.
Maybe, I dunno, but just maybe those six Numenoreans and Elves were stronger than Naruto? Was that considered? It might be a possiblity.

Rutee

2008-02-06, 09:42 PM

Maybe, I dunno, but just maybe those six Numenoreans and Elves were stronger than Naruto? Was that considered? It might be a possiblity
Hm, let's think about this. The Kyuubi required the combined efforts of the worlds' ninja to put it down. These are people who break mountains, nuke countrysides, and in general, kick mondo ass.

I'm sorry, but I see no reason to believe that any single mortal in LotR approaches those levels of WHOAMGPOWERFUL. Who was it that pointed out most LotR characters would be under level 10?

I really couldn't care less about who would win or lose. Tyckspoon I think? Posted the most plausible method of Sauron beating Naruto. But I'm pretty sure it's a much higher powerred world then LotR. It's really not something to be ashamed of. It's a shounen anime with insane power creep. Any sane setting is /going/ to be lower powerred.

EvilElitest

2008-02-06, 09:57 PM

You don't have to act so condescending and, well, elitist. I realize you'll probably laugh it off with "yeah, I act like a jerk, hahaha", but that really doesn't justify such an attitude. The show isn't awful - if it were, it wouldn't fulfill its aim, which is to entertain. It entertains a lot of people. You are not one of them (although you may derive a rather unkind pleasure from criticizing it). Just leave it at that
Fine, i apoligize for my attuite, but my option is the same, despise the show. Some people enjoy it, whatever its your life, just like some people like Eragon.

If Naruto is so screwed, how did mortals ever once face Sauron in direct combat when Sauron had his ring? Honestly, even if he'd lose, I'm pretty sure he's buffer then the heroes who /beat/ Sauron.

Well they had, you know, brains

Also, Omega Wolf Syndrome. Stop it. We're all fragging nerds here, on the internet. None of our hobbies is worse then the other.

No its not, i don't think nobody said that all anime is bad, i haven't , i like some anime. I just don't like this show nor its main character

Hm, let's think about this. The Kyuubi required the combined efforts of the worlds' ninja to put it down. These are people who break mountains, nuke countrysides, and in general, kick mondo ass.
proof? What acts have they done specifically

If you have no idea at all what you're posting about why post?
Characters in Naruto generally do not take 6 million years to charge up their attacks. Just because you've heard of animes with characters like that doesn't mean they are all like that.
doesn't the fox move take like a whole eposide and three episodes worth of flash backs to work?

(first page) for "zomg naruto pwns sauron, naruto=teh l33t haxxorz" I just wanted to have an actual debate, as opposed to a ridiculous Naruto-hatefest and Sauron-lovefest
fine, can we have some specific examples of the fox's power. We know that Naruto himself couldn't win, but what does this fox dude have? Fire immunity?
from
EE

hylian chozo

2008-02-06, 09:59 PM

Ok, apparently all of Naruto's power comes from the nine tailed fox; And he can only access it when he's near death or pissed off, correct? So, what if he's dead? Meaning Sauron kills him before he can regenerate and/or counterattack. What then? Does this fox demon bring him back to life to continue fighting? I'm sorry, but I really think Naruto can't win this one. From what I have seen of the anime, Naruto doesn't have the best reaction time and has a strange tendency to attempt to block attacks. In his normal form, Naruto can't win. He relies on the power of the fox or in outnumbering the opponent with clones that can't dodge worth crap.

EvilElitest

2008-02-06, 10:05 PM

Would Sauron's oppression of magic make a difference? I mean what the ninjas do is pretty much magic
from
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The Unborne

2008-02-06, 10:19 PM

Though I only saw the movies, isn't it plausible Naruto could destroy the Ring faster than the fellowship? Okay let's replace Frodo with Naruto for an instant, he's given the Ring and is told he has to go to Mt. Doom and throw the little thing into its flames. Alright so Naruto forgets about creating a Fellowship with others and summons Gamabunta.

Gamabunta tells Naruto that instead of him hopping his way to the mountain Naruto could just perform a Transformation technique to give him wings. Naruto then transforms himself and Gamabunta into a super large bird that pretty much nothing can touch since they are too large and fly higher than most.

Naruto thus can skip a couple books and travel to where Mt. Doom is within a couple of hours maybe a day. Our little Genin cancels the transformation near the top and allows Gamabunta let loose on the nearby army. Note that Boss Toad can smash up probably a century of Orcs at a time without even using his short sword. Naruto walks simply into the mountain and drops the ring.

Now that was only Naruto doing the work. The Fourth Hokage could have simply teleport himself to where Mt. Doom was and drop the Ring in and teleports out without breaking a sweat. Allowing no time at all for the Ring to take control of his will. Naruto is too simple minded for the ring to take affect on him.

Kyuubi wouldn't care about the ring and just destroy everything without even caring good nor evil. The easiest way to kill the Nine-tailed fox is to seal him up into a baby and kill the baby right then and there. (May or may not kill Kyuubi, its just speculation so far) The fox is pretty much god of all tailed-beasts and summoned creatures. The only Summoned creature so far to die is Manda the snake and that took a jutsu that is similar to a nuclear bomb, so I'm guessing it'd take more than just that to take out the Kyuubi when he's fully released. Does Sauron have any Nuclear like Spells?

Now there could be more ways for Naruto and company to do whatever, but in the end Naruto has Plot-no-jutsu to save himself and kill whatever baddie in front of him :smallsmile:

Ominous

2008-02-06, 10:50 PM

This thread makes all manner of religious figures cry.

Rutee

2008-02-06, 10:52 PM

We didn't make the Space-Pope cry, did we? ;.;

Poison_Fish

2008-02-06, 11:04 PM

Hey, the battle pope doesn't cry.

Tengu

2008-02-06, 11:49 PM

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/9222/1182498637112ex4.jpg

The Space Pope doesn't cry, he shoots eye beams. The guy in the lower right corner, though...

Yeah, I can't get enough of that picture. It's too hilarious.

averagejoe

2008-02-07, 12:13 AM

It seems to me that this fight is pretty much determined by who has the home turf advantage. Sauron isn't bishonen enough to be anything more than a hench-person in Naruto's world, but anywhere else Sauron would win because he wouldn't do that stupid "Wait for him to power up" thing that they always seem to do in the anime where the power level is over 9K.

Then again, Sauron was supposed to be pretty damn beautiful in his Numenor days, so maybe he could put up a decent fight. It just depends if he's masculine pretty or a more bishonen pretty. I doubt if there's textual support for either point of view.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 12:21 AM

Piedmon_Sama

2008-02-07, 12:30 AM

Naruto is too simple minded for the ring to take affect on him.

That makes no difference. The Ring will corrupt anyone who is susceptible---their corruption is just a matter of scale. They may lust for empire and glory (Saruman, Isildur) or be content to lurk in caves and eat the odd goblin (Gollum). Halflings could resist the ring's temptations for a time because they held a natural resistance.

Dwarves did too, IIRC, hence why instead of being twisted into Sauron's service like the Human Kings they had to get eaten by dragons.

Personally? I don't think the fight ever happens. Sauron knows a valuable asset when he sees one. Naruto's stubborn, loyal and generally simple, true. But he wouldn't be the first virtuous hero Sauron corrupted into the service of evil.

He'd keep the orange jumpsuit though. Sasuke's got the "BLACK AS MY SOUL!" emo look covered.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-02-07, 12:33 AM

Sauron deliberately constructed an insta-kill weakness into himself because it would give him PHENOMENAL POWER and control over others.

He doesn't have the genre savviness to attack during charge up times :P

Have to agree with Rutee and step in (despite grave reservations) here. Despite what it looks like it hardly takes any time for most of the stuff in Naruto to happen. In the episodes they look like they do because...well the producers drag it out to eat up time and generic powering up scenes can be cut-and-pasted in a rush (Not that any of Naruto's are generic).

As for being dead...Hmmm yeah, I think the Fox could. Naruto is a resilient little bastard and if a fistful of cursed seal lightening through the shoulder/lung area (plus sometime afterwards with blood gushing out) isn't enough to stop the Kyuubi from fully regenerating Naruto (in a rather short amount of time) I'd say any melee wound that doesn't like...sever a head or limb could be fixed (granted the more grievous the wound the longer it takes).

It does fall down to that Lord of the Rings is a much more realistic setting then Naruto and thats hampering in this kind of match up. Naruto may not be as utterly ridiculous as say...DBZ but it IS Shonen anime where high-powered is the course of things. Besides, just because it took the best of LotR to defeat Sauron doesn't mean it'd take the same kind of effort to defeat him in Narutoverse. It comes back to the differences between the settings. From what I've seen, heard, and read on Wiki the best of Elf and Men would be...not that special in Narutoverse. Easily below the tier Naruto is at now in the most recent issue.

Now I'm going to leave again before my inner fanboy takes over again.

EDIT: As for the Ring, Naruto's greatest wish is for respect. Really, how much can you corrupt that? Note, not fear. Respect.

Piedmon_Sama

2008-02-07, 12:45 AM

EDIT: As for the Ring, Naruto's greatest wish is for respect. Really, how much can you corrupt that? Note, not fear. Respect.

I think you just answered your own question. Seriously, with Naruto you're talking about a kid who's been hated and cursed by everyone since he was a toddler. His drive to become the Hokage was fostered essentially by spite; he wants people to have no choice but to admit he's the best. He wants all the people who cursed him, sneered at him, called him a lackwit and a freak and a monster to finally have no choice but to shut up and acknowledge him.

How is this not budding young villain material? =p

Callos_DeTerran

2008-02-07, 12:56 AM

How is this not budding young villain material? =p

Because despite all that he's pretty adamant about doing it the 'right way' and not the wrong way which he's exposed to pretty often. =P He's shown a remarkable amount of restraint in taking the higher road instead of the easy one.

The_Snark

2008-02-07, 03:47 AM

EDIT: As for the Ring, Naruto's greatest wish is for respect. Really, how much can you corrupt that? Note, not fear. Respect.

Not really relevant. Sam's greatest wish was to settle down and have a nice potato garden, and he was still envisioning glory on the battlefield before a day with the Ring had passed. (That was near Mordor, so it's an extreme example, but still.) He shook it off, but if he had kept it it would have gotten to him. The Ring always gets to you.

Will not comment on the rest of the match. I can only compare it to a tennis game between a perfectly mundane seagull and a perfectly mundane lobster.

Ossian

2008-02-07, 05:04 AM

It does fall down to that Lord of the Rings is a much more realistic setting then Naruto and thats hampering in this kind of match up. Naruto may not be as utterly ridiculous as say...DBZ but it IS Shonen anime where high-powered is the course of things. Besides, just because it took the best of LotR to defeat Sauron doesn't mean it'd take the same kind of effort to defeat him in Narutoverse. It comes back to the differences between the settings. From what I've seen, heard, and read on Wiki the best of Elf and Men would be...not that special in Narutoverse. Easily below the tier Naruto is at now in the most recent issue

Good stuff in this thread, despite its original intentions were changed to make it a bit longer lived. As much as I adore to abuse shonen and sentai of the last generation, it can get boring real soon.
Now, if I may, I like to think that there is a conversion factor when you pit vastly different universes. Think of it like a sports game. Someone has to be the home team, and someone else the guests.

Now, take Gil Galad and teleport him into the shonenverse of Naruto. Can you not see Gil Galad becoming

a) a foot taller
b) a lot more feminine, with pointy chin and huge eyes
c) get an armor with insanely large shoulder pauldrons
d) get a spear full of barbs that has kinetic lines whenever he swings it or thusts it.
e) the light of valinor powering up like a golden halo around his figure
f) hear him shouting...

"Nautò (accent on the "o" make it more Nippo).....prepare to die.....Vaaa-liiii-nooo-ru (mark the final "U") Taniquetilu no Zanyari diamondu keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnn

Teeee-yaaaa!!! (everything freezes to the horizon line and cracks open everywhere)

g) Naruto die.....

I on't know you, bu I do see that happen (and tremble with loathe, for another matter).
Ossian

Valinor mountain of Taniquetil, Strike of the Diamond Spear...or whatever.....

Rutee

2008-02-07, 05:19 AM

Ossian

2008-02-07, 06:03 AM

Could someone explain to me why there is such a seeming obsession on these boards with scaling opponents down or up based on the universe they're in? I recognize Ossian is joking, but there have been those who werent. It seems to me like admitting there's a massive power imbalance and that between the characters, as written, one will paste the other unless you rewrite one or the other.

Honestly, though, I can't shake the feeling that people are underrating raw power involved in the Naruto-verse because they dislike shounen anime. I suppose this is unsurprising, since in essence a versus thread is almost universally "Who I like better wins", but.

Good point. I guess that the urge to be sarcastic could originate from the gap between some settings. It's not "Middle Earth Vs Feudal Japan" or "Naruto Vs Saint Seya", and to flesh out an answer people could possibly need to fix this big gap, perhaps by means of an adaptation.

It's like saying "Son Goku vs the USMC" or "Scrubs Vs Sailor Moon".....there is not much that you can work on, especially in the Naruto vs Sauron, given the highly fictional nature of both (but esp. Nauro's).

O.

WarriorTribble

2008-02-07, 06:18 AM

I believe this debate was settled when someone pointed out that neither Naruto or the kyubi shown much resistience to mental dominance/corruption, one of Saurons leet skills. With that said however, yes the fox is uber powerful, it's probably at least equal to Sauron in raw strength.

Also, why did people mention the One Ring? While the item does corrupt, it doesn't let Sauron control said person, and it's been stated that any strong willed individual with a fair amount of power could use it to augment themselves and overpower Sauron.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 06:26 AM

This is /odd/ to me, as I spend time building game systems that encompass these enormous gaps within settings, I suppose. Also I play Super Robot Wars.

Honestly, the way I see it, one setting is just fantastically higher powerred then the other. High Fantasy vs. Low to Mid fantasy, and it's like people can't come to terms with that. Which strikes me as especially weird in the cases of people who despise anime for their over the top-ness. One would think it'd be easy to admit that your favorite setting is lower powerred then this Over the Top mumbo-jumbo you despise.. but people are funny that way. Anyway, to directly address Ossian's post, there's more to work with then one would think, common ground or no in genre or no, it's just that the truth is, it's a boring match up.

I believe this debate was settled when someone pointed out that neither Naruto or the kyubi shown much resistience to mental dominance/corruption, one of Saurons leet skills. With that said however, yes the fox is uber powerful, it's probably at least equal to Sauron in raw strength.

Well~.. the explanation I got for Morgoth not being corrupted by Sauron was that Morgoth had higher raw power then Sauron, so his powers of corruption didn't work...

WarriorTribble

2008-02-07, 06:42 AM

Well~.. the explanation I got for Morgoth not being corrupted by Sauron was that Morgoth had higher raw power then Sauron, so his powers of corruption didn't work......I don't recall Sauron trying to overpower his master. Perhaps you're thinking of someone else?

Rutee

2008-02-07, 06:44 AM

...I don't recall Sauron trying to overpower his master. Perhaps you're thinking of someone else?

I wouldn't know. That was the explanation I received from some of the ME-verse buffs on these boards none the less, when the subject last came up.

Ossian

2008-02-07, 07:35 AM

Just 2 chips I feel like throwing on the table: I must have stated somewhere else too that Sauron's Image (and thus his difficulties in Vs threads, among many other things) was badly damaged by the movies. They gave him shape and size, and made him a 10 feet tall mace swinging grunt.

Give him shape, and people will think that he's just a CR 20 orc. He's immortal, ages old, powerful and a mastermind in his own right, and yet how is that supposed to stand up against a 13 years old boy who has the "untapped potential" to use? Unfortunately, anime tropes will always beat anglo saxon epic and all the related narrative 10-0, sad as that might be.

Ossian

PS
BTW, glad the sarcasm was plainly visible. I've been walking on eggs these days reading some of the latest VS threads, so Kuods to Rutee. I forgot to mention that I like anime too. :smallbiggrin:

WarriorTribble

2008-02-07, 07:55 AM

Give him shape, and people will think that he's just a CR 20 orc. He's immortal, ages old, powerful and a mastermind in his own right, and yet how is that supposed to stand up against a 13 years old boy who has the "untapped potential" to use? Unfortunately, anime tropes will always beat anglo saxon epic and all the related narrative 10-0, sad as that might be.Like others have mentioned, it's not really Naruto vs. Sauron, but Naruto+Nine-tailed fox vs. Sauron. The fox in question has been known for destroying mountains without trying, while despite Saurons alleged strength he still got whupped by super-humans and elves. Saurons strength lies in his ability to mentally dominate others, and this is why he'll win such a conflict, but of the two he's physically weaker.

Obrysii

2008-02-07, 08:33 AM

Give him shape, and people will think that he's just a CR 20 orc. He's immortal, ages old, powerful and a mastermind in his own right, and yet how is that supposed to stand up against a 13 years old boy who has the "untapped potential" to use?

Oh, Naruto by himself would be toast. We all acknowledge that - without the demon fox, he'd lose most of his major fights (vs. Sasuke, vs. Orochimaru, vs. Haku, vs. Kimimaro, vs. Gaara, vs. Neji, etc) ...

But it is the Nine Tailed Fox sealed inside of him, the strongest (known) entity in the Narutoverse, that would even the playing field against Sauron. It is, at bare minimum, at the level of a maiar if not stronger - it is certainly stronger than what we see the Balrog do, for example.

With the demon fox's chakra, Naruto also has one other trump card: he can summon the hundred meter tall Gamabunta, the "boss" of toads. But to what benefit that would be, I don't know.

Ossian

2008-02-07, 10:37 AM

Point taken....Still, even with the sheer size of the Kiyyaba, or that of the Toad monster, I have to say that Sauron has a chance of coming out alive. My point is, that the level of destruction displeyed in the 2 settings greatly differs, but in Middle Earth who's the boss for who is more a question of "authority". Morgoth himself was a bigass brute, a mere 30 feet tall at best, but he held legions of dragons under his authority and willpower. Ok, he created dragons, but just like with the giant wyrms, he was the master of legions of other "lesser" beings, maiar of great power and potency, who would have easily kicked his ass any day, if they had the wit to attack en mass. This said, it's really difficult to compare a novel of the late 50s set in the age of Myth with the Hype of a fantasy shonen manga which was published after the Dragonball power creep. After all, one must aknowledge that even the toughest super villains of ME get beaten, at some stage, by one or more champions, who are basically exceptionally strong and valian men and elves, but show no "ki", "CHI", "Chakra" "cosmos" or what not...

Even thus, the 2 of the OP might well extend a challenge to each other, and being Sauron a Demigod of the highest order and the Fox demon a powerful being, but one belonging to a lesser order, he might still give the Fox a tough time, and that would be a prolonged battle of titans, mind you.

O.

EDIT: I have a technical question. In japanese folklore, wasn't the fox demon with many tails called "Kitsune"? I seem to remember something like that...Any clue?

Piedmon_Sama

2008-02-07, 11:28 AM

Good stuff in this thread, despite its original intentions were changed to make it a bit longer lived. As much as I adore to abuse shonen and sentai of the last generation, it can get boring real soon.
Now, if I may, I like to think that there is a conversion factor when you pit vastly different universes. Think of it like a sports game. Someone has to be the home team, and someone else the guests.

Now, take Gil Galad and teleport him into the shonenverse of Naruto. Can you not see Gil Galad becoming

a) a foot taller
b) a lot more feminine, with pointy chin and huge eyes
c) get an armor with insanely large shoulder pauldrons
d) get a spear full of barbs that has kinetic lines whenever he swings it or thusts it.
e) the light of valinor powering up like a golden halo around his figure
f) hear him shouting...

"Nautò (accent on the "o" make it more Nippo).....prepare to die.....Vaaa-liiii-nooo-ru (mark the final "U") Taniquetilu no Zanyari diamondu keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnn

Teeee-yaaaa!!! (everything freezes to the horizon line and cracks open everywhere)

g) Naruto die.....

I on't know you, bu I do see that happen (and tremble with loathe, for another matter).
Ossian

Valinor mountain of Taniquetil, Strike of the Diamond Spear...or whatever.....

So, being the "peak of human physical ability," should Captain America step into the Narutoverse.... he becomes.... a God? :D

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-07, 11:32 AM

So, being the "peak of human physical ability," should Captain America step into the Narutoverse.... he becomes.... a God? :D

No he becomes a Japanese-American stereotype :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 11:37 AM

EDIT: I have a technical question. In japanese folklore, wasn't the fox demon with many tails called "Kitsune"? I seem to remember something like that...Any clue?

Yes; however, according to Wikipedia, the kitsune with nine tails (the most) were known as kyubi no kitsune; that's probably where the Kyubi's name comes from. In any case, the original kitsune have little relevance to this thread, as there's been substantial Adaptation Decay in the transition to the Narutoverse for that mythological being.

As for the topic of the thread itself- it's basically down to whether Sauron kills Naruto (normal form) in one blow or not. If not, then the Kyubi regenerates him, and, frankly, the kyubi is physically far superior even to the book version of Sauron. It wouldn't field as great an army, but in a straight-up fight, a being with that kind of power would OMGWTFPWN Sauron. (And, frankly, all on it's own, it posed the same sort of threat to the world as Sauron and all his armies did; both would've torn everything apart, except that they had some special condition that could stop them- one a powerful sealing jutsu, the other a ring imbued with his life force. The difference, then, is the power level of the settings.)

Then again... the ring is supposedly indestructible except in the very hottest fires in all Middle-Earth, possibly out of spiritual significance as well as straight-up heat.

As such, we must consider if the OP means a single fight, or a prolonged war which can only end when one has been either utterly destroyed/diminished (as I know Sauron can't, technically, be truly destroyed), or is brought under the sway of the other. If it's the latter, then Sauron wins by default; Naruto isn't the bookish type, and would never figure out how to kill him. Even if he did, it's a tossup whether Naruto has the willpower to pull it off.

(Yes, I know that even the person most suited for it on Middle-Earth couldn't do it, but Naruto would be able to speed the trip up, lessening the effects of the ring, and the one thing that the kid himself is notable for is his simply STUPID amounts of determination.)

To summarize:

In a straight-up fight? Probably Kyubi, assuming that Naruto manages to partially block one blow.

In a war? Sauron, obviously.

averagejoe

2008-02-07, 12:03 PM

Sauron deliberately constructed an insta-kill weakness into himself because it would give him PHENOMENAL POWER and control over others.

He doesn't have the genre savviness to attack during charge up times :P

He's not savvy to his own genre, doesn't mean he can't be savvy to others. :smalltongue: That's why I said this would only work outside the Naruto-verse. Different genre play by different rules.

Anyways, even if Sauron didn't kill him during the charge time, he could just kill Naruto during a flashback, or a sequence where Naruto doesn't know what just happened (because the creators of the show assume the audience might be confused) and one of the other characters gives him a long explaination. Or when he spends a bunch of time with some sad/touched/etc. expression on his face and spends ten minutes gazing into nothing. Really, even if Naruto is a good fighter, he doesn't exactly get to the fighting, which would be devestating in any other genre.

Though, by the same token, I suppose Naruto could attack Sauron during a description of the scenery. However, Naruto doesn't seem savvy in any sense of the word, much less genre savvy in any genre. :smalltongue:

Artemician

2008-02-07, 12:11 PM

Anyways, even if Sauron didn't kill him during the charge time, he could just kill Naruto during a flashback, or a sequence where Naruto doesn't know what just happened (because the creators of the show assume the audience might be confused) and one of the other characters gives him a long explaination. Or when he spends a bunch of time with some sad/touched/etc. expression on his face and spends ten minutes gazing into nothing. Really, even if Naruto is a good fighter, he doesn't exactly get to the fighting, which would be devestating in any other genre.

Though, by the same token, I suppose Naruto could attack Sauron during a description of the scenery. However, Naruto doesn't seem savvy in any sense of the word, much less genre savvy in any genre. :smalltongue:

Cute. But ultimately... not important.

Scenario One: Sauron sneaks up on Naruto while he's having a flashback.
Outcome: Naruto gets knocked back, almost dies, and the Kyuubi Fox takes over. Big Fight ensues.

Scneario two: Naruto shanks Sauron while the trees glitter in the light of the rising sun, sending scintilliating bolts of luminescence sparkling across the oh-so beautiful white-crested waves.
Outcome: Sauron screams in pain, recovers, and then hits Naruto back. Naruto almost dies, the Kyuubi Fox takes over. Big Fight ensues.

EvilElitest

2008-02-07, 02:34 PM

He doesn't have the genre savviness to attack during charge up times :P
Sauron you mean. While he certainly isn't breaking the forth wall, as far as fantasy villians go he is rather genre saavy, i mean there are very few points where i scream at the book "Why the hell are you doing that, you stupid fool"

EDIT: As for the Ring, Naruto's greatest wish is for respect. Really, how much can you corrupt that? Note, not fear. Respect.
what is the main cause of school bullying. Desire for respect. Desire for respect leads for problems like trying to dominate others, obtaining attention, ect. I mean Sallari from the Movie Amodeous desires respect.

Because despite all that he's pretty adamant about doing it the 'right way' and not the wrong way which he's exposed to pretty often. =P He's shown a remarkable amount of restraint in taking the higher road instead of the easy one.
He is also a total idiot, so his understanding of what is the "right way" can be easily muddled by a smooth talker, and Sauron is like freaking Tallyrand

Will not comment on the rest of the match. I can only compare it to a tennis game between a perfectly mundane seagull and a perfectly mundane lobster.
dude, the lobster would so win, he can hold the racket:smallwink:

Could someone explain to me why there is such a seeming obsession on these boards with scaling opponents down or up based on the universe they're in?
it is worth nothing that Sauron can't use the ring if this is an area battle, nor his Mt. Doom trick, in any match you need to scale them down to make the match interesting. For example, if somebody wanted to do Arthas vs. Lord Soth, it is a lot more fun if you make it pre-LK arthas

Honestly, though, I can't shake the feeling that people are underrating raw power involved in the Naruto-verse because they dislike shounen anime. I suppose this is unsurprising, since in essence a versus thread is almost universally "Who I like better wins", but.
and people are undermining Sauron to even make this work it is worth noting

How about Arthas vs. Naurto? That will a bit more fun, and give me an excuse to argue for Arthas. Illiden?

Well~.. the explanation I got for Morgoth not being corrupted by Sauron was that Morgoth had higher raw power then Sauron, so his powers of corruption didn't work.

I wouldn't know. That was the explanation I received from some of the ME-verse buffs on these boards none the less, when the subject last came up.
where did you get that, you asked me and i told you that Sauron is honestly loyal to Morgoth. Morgoth also has corruption powers himself but the match never occurred for power because Sauron likes his boss. I mean when he takes over Numenor, he has the men worship Morgoth, not himself

Like others have mentioned, it's not really Naruto vs. Sauron, but Naruto+Nine-tailed fox vs. Sauron. The fox in question has been known for destroying mountains without trying, while despite Saurons alleged strength he still got whupped by super-humans and elves. Saurons strength lies in his ability to mentally dominate others, and this is why he'll win such a conflict, but of the two he's physically weaker.
well Sauron does have shapeshifting, magic, and the burning touch thing

No he becomes a Japanese-American stereotype
In america
from
EE

Rutee

2008-02-07, 02:46 PM

He's not savvy to his own genre, doesn't mean he can't be savvy to others. :smalltongue: That's why I said this would only work outside the Naruto-verse. Different genre play by different rules.

No, seriously. If you deliberately build an insta-kill weakness into yourself, under any circumstances, you are utterly genre-blind to /all/ fantasy. That's not just a medieval Fantasy idiocy; That's idiocy in all forms of fiction. We can surmise that he has not even an iota of genre-savviness in his entire body. A genre-savvy villain would have made the One Ring, and then lied like a rug, claiming it was what gave him his vast powers, etc, while only inserting the power "I know when it's broken". Whoever breaks The One Ring obviously did it at Mt. Doom, since that's what the legend says, so you teleport over and paste the schlub, remake the ring, and claim the other person was corrupted by it.

Basically if you don't act smart within your own genre, there's no reason to assume you can act smart in someone else's.

warty goblin

2008-02-07, 03:08 PM

I said I wasn't going to get involved, and I'm not, but I can still provide information, right?

The reason that Sauron didn't corrupt Morgoth is that Morgoth was more evil than Sauron, because Sauron was only the servant. Thus any evil that Sauron did, Morgoth was also responsible for, while there was evil done by Morgoth that Sauron was not responsible for, or something like that. Its made pretty clear in the Silmarillion that Sauron is, at least in the beginning (aka when Morgoth is still around), less evil than Morgoth.

Rowanomicon

2008-02-07, 03:19 PM

Rutee

2008-02-07, 03:22 PM

Only the explicitly genre savvy break monologue or power up time. I already went over that.

The_Snark

2008-02-07, 03:23 PM

No, seriously. If you deliberately build an insta-kill weakness into yourself, under any circumstances, you are utterly genre-blind to /all/ fantasy. That's not just a medieval Fantasy idiocy; That's idiocy in all forms of fiction. We can surmise that he has not even an iota of genre-savviness in his entire body. A genre-savvy villain would have made the One Ring, and then lied like a rug, claiming it was what gave him his vast powers, etc, while only inserting the power "I know when it's broken". Whoever breaks The One Ring obviously did it at Mt. Doom, since that's what the legend says, so you teleport over and paste the schlub, remake the ring, and claim the other person was corrupted by it.

Basically if you don't act smart within your own genre, there's no reason to assume you can act smart in someone else's.

It wasn't genre-savvy, but it wasn't idiocy, either. The plan ran something like this (tangent warning):

1. Gain friendship of elves by helping them to make powerful magical artifacts.

2. Trick elves into investing so much power into said artifacts that their continued existence in Middle-Earth is largely dependent on them.

3. Create magical artifacts to give as gifts to men and dwarves, too, but this step is less important.

4. Create a magical artifact with as much power over all the others as is possible.

And it pretty much worked. There were flaws, of course, namely that however much he would have liked it to be, the Ring was never completely indestructible; fortunately, nobody was going to have the willpower to manage to destroy it. And in order to give himself as much control over the other races as possible, he had to put a lot of power into it.

It was a smart plan, and almost worked. It was not a genre savvy plan, but it was intelligent.

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 03:29 PM

Wait. Just because Sauron doesn't know he's a fictional character means that he'll wait around while people look constipated instead of killing them on the spot?
No way.
He may not know about the various tropes of fiction, but he'd simply mind crush them while he rushed froward and impaled them.
He has no reason to stand there looking dumb while some do forces out a hard crap in order to turn into a giant world punching thing-a-ma-hooie.

It doesn't take genre savviness to attack someone when they're "charging up."

If I was in a fight to the death where I had a sword and the other guy just stood there clenching every muscle in his body but doing nothing else even as I approached him I'd simply run him through. It doesn't matter how powerful the super form is. If you have to stand still for a while to do it you're gonna die against anyone except the dumbest foes. Apparently this proves that ever combatant in anime series are mentally handicapped. Oh well.

Would you please, please stop using this strawman argument? Naruto's transformation isn't dependent on him "charging up," but on him being injured enough for the Kyubi to care about how he's doing. (This may not be true further on, but so far, I've stuck with the english dub. Believe it!:smalltongue: )
For that matter, I take offense to your assertion that all anime combat involves rediculous chargeup times; there are many good anime out there that do nothing of the sort: Ghost in the Shell, Slayers and Record of Lodoss War, off the top of my head.
Frankly, since there's little effect on Naruto's resiliency when the kyubi is dormant (just some sped up out-of-combat healing), you don't even need to argue this; as I said before, all Sauron has to do is one-hit kill Naruto in normal mode. If he fails to actually kill Naruto, the kyubi takes over.

Now, if you're going to argue the genre-savvy Sauron, he could always attack during a flashback. But that's just low.:smallamused:

Rutee

2008-02-07, 03:32 PM

Rowanomicon

2008-02-07, 03:45 PM

The_Snark

2008-02-07, 04:11 PM

It's idiocy from a meta- standpoint though. I will not contest that the plan made total sense to the person who came up with it, and that they had every rational reason to believe it would work like a charm. As you point out, it nearly did anyway.

But building weaknesses into yourself means that, given the power of plot, you've just handed the heroes, whoever they may be, a guaranteed way to break your defenses. And Gods help you if you build an insta-kill weakness into yourself, because the protagonists will use it on you. You're not leaving Chekov's Gun, or even Chekov's Artillery. You're building Chekov's thermonuclear device. Even if you have every rational reason to believe it will grant you phenomenal, cosmic power and absolute dominion, it's not smart from a meta-standpoint. That's what I'm talking about.

Oh, sure. But most people don't assume that dramatic heroism is one of the guiding forces of their world.* Genre-savvy characters do, which is not particularly realistic but is funny (and happens to be intelligent, because dramatic heroism probably is one of the guiding principles of their world).

So, agreed. Sauron makes remarkably few mistakes from a genre-savvy viewpoint—he refused to be baited into entering battle himself until he saw that unless he risked himself, he wasn't going to win. After his overt plans for world conquest had been thwarted by a personal defeat, he set about a war of attrition, using plagues, puppet enemies, internal corruption, and false identities to destroy his enemies without revealing himself, and was only found out after about three thousand years, at which point he was forced to move into the open again. Even then, when he was strong enough to overrun the known world, he wouldn't have personally entered the battle until all threatening enemies had been destroyed or he absolutely had to. Not a whole lot of overconfidence, no leaving enemies for dead at the bottom of a cliff, and he made every effort to acquire compentent minions...

But the one meta mistake he did make was basically the biggest one you can make. I guess it could have been worse... the Ring could have been built with a self-destruct button. :smallsmile:

*Unless this is Discworld. The evil overlords there have very good reasons for building that one weakness into their Fortresses of Death: it's in the rules. Also in the rules is a bit about the hero never actually finishing off the villain after their defeat, so not breaking the rules is definitely to their advantage...

Rutee

2008-02-07, 04:22 PM

Re: Charging at someone while they're Charging. If you want to debate the 'realistic' use of tactics in a fight, isn't charging someone who has every reason to expect it tantamount to idiocy unless you have an enormous skill and strength advantage?

@The Snark: It'd be kind of cool if there was a villain who 'should' be genre-savvy, except his universe /doesn't/ run on dramatic heroism.. I'm sure it's been done, but I can't seem to think of one..

Rowanomicon

2008-02-07, 05:36 PM

Rutee

2008-02-07, 05:58 PM

And yet you wonder why I think of the lot of you as unreasonably overestimating Sauron's power.

Rowanomicon

2008-02-07, 06:03 PM

Rutee have you read the books? That's almost a direct quote of what the Which King threatens Eowyn with.

And you wonder why I think you are unreasonably underestimating Sauron's power based on ignorance. You clearly have not read the books, did not understand them, or do not remember them. Whatever it is you have made it quite obvious that you do no posses the knowledge necessary to judge Sauron's power.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 06:08 PM

I did not read them. Tolkien is just above James Joyce for readability of his work. I rely on the posts that come here for the nitty gritty. Notice that you automatically assumed that Sauron, based on a /claim/ of the capability of doing that to what amounts to an ordinary mortal, you assume he can do this to a character /who actually has powers/, let alone the ridiculous ones Naruto characters reach.

plainsfox

2008-02-07, 06:14 PM

I've been thinking about this for a while now and here's how I think it would go down.

Ring Wraths drag a battered and bruised Naruto to Sauron.

Sauron: GIVE ME MY RING!
Naruto: Here! You can have it!

Naruto tosses the ring on the floor. Sauron leans forward to pick it up

Sauron: Ahh....at last. Wait this is .....

*POOOF*

Sauron's reaching towards a shadowclone

Shadowclones #1 and #2: Hehehehehehe! GOTCHA!

*POOF* *POOF*

The screen flashes to Mt. Mordor and Naruto throwing the One ring in at that instant.

Rowanomicon

2008-02-07, 06:15 PM

So what's Sauron going to do? Stand there.
He's obviously going to kill Naruto, or anyone he's fighting, if he has the chance. I guess he could instead trap their soul in the house of lamentation and strip it bare before the great lidless eye.

Either way it's bad news for the other guy.

I was simply presenting it as something he might do instead of kill an opponent if he had the chance.

You openly admit that you have not read the source material that Sauron comes from. Surely any reasonable person must realise that this means you can not be an accurate judge of his power. So how can you say that anyone is overestimating him?

I could tell you that Sauron has the power to rip holes in the space/time continuum with his farts or that anyone who sees him automatically dies even if they are otherwise immortal. You have no idea. You haven't read the books. To you Sauron is exactly as powerful as you want him to be and considering you don't really know that much about him and you seem to have developed a grudge against some people who happen to like the literature he appears in, perhaps you have a grudge against the literature itself, I don't know, but I'm going to guess you don't want him to be very powerful.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 06:22 PM

I was simply presenting it as something he might do instead of kill an opponent if he had the chance.

You openly admit that you have not read the source material that Sauron comes from. Surely any reasonable person must realise that this means you can not be an accurate judge of his power. So how can you say that anyone is overestimating him?
I read the first two books. Based on the fact that he did not auto-win against a low-magic setting with very few heroic beings, and those heroic beings themselves being fairly subdued in their capabilities, and THOSE often scatterred, I can surmise that he is not a terribly high powerred being compared to settings wherein world destruction is a very real, or worse, easily achieved, threat.

I could tell you that Sauron has the power to rip holes in the space/time continuum with his farts or that anyone who sees him automatically dies even if they are otherwise immortal. You have no idea. You haven't read the books. To you Sauron is exactly as powerful as you want him to be and considering you don't really know that much about him and you seem to have developed a grudge against some people who happen to like the literature he appears in, perhaps you have a grudge against the literature itself, I don't know, but I'm going to guess you don't want him to be very powerful.
He /isn't/ very powerful. Very powerful is "I can break this universe at a whim". If he possessed anywhere near that much power, there wouldn't be a story. You could tell me all that, except I would know you're lying, based on what I /have/ read, and Wikipedia.

GoC

2008-02-07, 06:22 PM

I mean, in intelligence alone Sauron more than outmatches Naruto. Considering Naruto has all the IQ and emotional range of an apartment block and Sauron is the only Dark Lord to never make me think "Oh my god are you freaking retarded?".
Agreed.
I'm actualy just anti-Sauron fanboy not pro-Narutu.

Okay, it took the dropping of a continent. I mean the Valar threw tectonic plates at Sauron and only suceeded in destroying precisely one of his many forms.
While it's very true that he was killed (and reformed later) by that immense destruction it doesn't mean that something lesser wouldn't have worked just as well.
You're also a bit misleading. The Valar were actualy punishing Numenor, Sauron just happened to be on the island at the time.

It took the six greatest human and elven fighters, ever, to defeat him, and the two best of them died in the doing and three were routed entirely.
Unless the version of the Silmarillion I've got on my lap is a fake then that's not what happened.
He was finally forced to stop being a pansy and came out of his fortress to help the remants of his army defend the walls. He killed Elendil and Gil-Galad (and presumably some mooks) and was then killed himself. It doesn't say by whome or how many were in the fight.
Getting killed by a few non-superpowered humans isn't very impressive if (as my friend said) the narutu characters can really withstand cityblock leveling attacks.

Why do people have this idea that badass=powerful? Aragon is cooler than a US Army grunt but he'd still lose due to a bullet in his head.

And all that accomplished was essentially knocking him down for a while.
It weakened him permanently. But it's true that for Sauron death isn't permanent and he can just create new bodies for himself.

This is a being who wrestles with gods, makes the daughters of elves and gods faint (the same daughter who can dance in front of the Devil), this is a being who deflects lightning bolts shot at him by the High King of the Gods whilst rocking out on top of a temple to LOTR's Satan.
Can you give me a page number?

Morgoth may have had more in raw power, but Sauron was much more cunning than his master ever was. Naruto simply has no chance. If he isn't stunned by the crushing Shadow of Sauron, as I call it (a fear aura worse than a hundred Nazgul), or burnt to a crisp by Sauron's searing touch, or reduced to naught but a shade of a soul, naked before the Great Eye, then Sauron's immeasurably superior hand-to-hand combat skills will destroy him.
All but the last are possible. Sauron lacks the physical power to defeat Narutu in actual combat.

Now that I've got the book I can ask all Sauron supporters for references!
EE: Where's the burning touch power?
Rutee: Any questions regarding Sauron that you want to ask?

Interesting fact: Sauron was very afraid of Numenor. This rules out Sauron vs. US army.:smallamused:

EDIT:
Sauron isn't as genere savvy as he seems. He sent a wolf to attack Luthien and when it was killed sent another... and another... and another! One at a time!:smallbiggrin:

Rutee

2008-02-07, 06:29 PM

Rutee: Any questions regarding Sauron that you want to ask?
Not particularly. I've got a pretty good idea of his powers and whatnot. Whoever positted him winning through trickery or deceit was probably spot on. Corruption isn't likely (Orochimaru isn't exactly a slouch at it either, and Naruto's resisted his offers repeatedly), but taking advantage of his stupidity is.

In a straight fight, not likely. I mean, SAuron lost taking on the most powerful members of a low powerred setting, with an army at his back. The Kyuubi barely lost taking on most of a planet. A planet full of people who seem to be every bit as powerful as LotR's finest.

EvilElitest

2008-02-07, 06:41 PM

Agreed.
I'm actualy just anti-Sauron fanboy not pro-Narutu.

That is even worst, a pro fanboy can be expected to know powers, somebody who goes out of his way to hate something simple because he is used often in vs. threads is even worst

While it's very true that he was killed (and reformed later) by that immense destruction it doesn't mean that something lesser wouldn't have worked just as well.
You're also a bit misleading. The Valar were actualy punishing Numenor, Sauron just happened to be on the island at the time.

No, they were punishing Numenor and getting rid of Sauron

Unless the version of the Silmarillion I've got on my lap is a fake then that's not what happened.
He was finally forced to stop being a pansy and came out of his fortress to help the remants of his army defend the walls. He killed Elendil and Gil-Galad (and presumably some mooks) and was then killed himself. It doesn't say by whome or how many were in the fight.
Getting killed by a few non-superpowered humans isn't very impressive if (as my friend said) the narutu characters can really withstand cityblock leveling attacks.

1. What your friends says is meanenless, my friend says that Gollum could kill Naruto. And he watches the show
2. He fought six dudes, killed the two greatest
3. Pansy? Try smart, if I have a big fortress i ain't leaving

Why do people have this idea that badass=powerful? Aragon is cooler than a US Army grunt but he'd still lose due to a bullet in his head.
Ironically, that seems to go to Naurto more than Sauron

Can you give me a page number?

Tale of Beron, i don't have the Simeralion on me, but Luthiern is powerful enough to make Morgoth go to sleep but it fails on Sauron. Hmmmm

All but the last are possible. Sauron lacks the physical power to defeat Narutu in actual combat.
Brains do make a difference in combat, Naurto is flashy but not that samrt

Now that I've got the book I can ask all Sauron supporters for references!
EE: Where's the burning touch power?
Rutee: Any questions regarding Sauron that you want to ask?

1. Look up Gil-ad, he is touched by Sauron and burns to a crisp

Interesting fact: Sauron was very afraid of Numenor. This rules out Sauron vs. US army.:smallamused:
1. I already said the US army could defeat him on the "who could defeat Sauron thread
2. no, Sauron knew Numenor was powerful and wanted them out of the picture, me and Walking Target talked about this, the Numenorians were threating him, and he decided it would be better to become a prisoner and take over from the inside
from
EE

AmberVael

2008-02-07, 06:42 PM

My proposal is that the fight would go like this:

Random Person: "You're really going to fight Sauron?" *Scratches head*
Naruto: "Believe it! I won't run away!"
*cut to Mt. Doom.*
Sauron is standing menacingly amidst the dancing flames of the mountain, the one ring glowing on his finger, while Naruto approaches, the fox shaped shroud beginning to cover him.
Naruto: "I'll rip you apart!"
Masashi Kishimoto: Translated from Japanese. "What is this crap?"
J.R.R Tolkein: From above, in the clouds, wailing with his arms stretched above him: "Nooooooooo!"
Mass of Rabid fans from either side: "DEEAAATHHHH!"
The rabid fans stab each other repeatedly with pointy sticks, smash in heads with laptops, and generally scream in each others faces.
Vael: Vael steps from a parting in the clouds and speaks in a booming voice. "This merely demeans both sides and all those helplessly embroiled in this conflict. Stop before it is too late!"
There is a pause on the battlefield.
Mass of Rabid fans from either side: "DEEAAATHHHH!"
Vael: "Noooo!"
Vael is stabbed to death with pens, pencils, and paperclips.

EvilElitest

2008-02-07, 06:43 PM

Vael: Vael steps from a parting in the clouds and speaks in a booming voice. "This merely demeans both sides and all those helplessly embroiled in this conflict. Stop before it is too late!"
/pencil shank
from
EE

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 06:53 PM

I have to laugh at this... Is there even a question? This is all a jumbled mess with no guidelines. I propose... THUNDER DOME SUMO!!!!

Both sides start at the edges of the stadium, Naruto charges into his rabid pokeman form and Sauron sprints to the pokeman form. Sauron proceeds with either option a or option b.

A: Swift kill, demi-god vs. Little boy w/ pokeman? Demi-god wins.

B: Worse than death/odd death that is very humiliating.

Your choice.

Obrysii

2008-02-07, 06:53 PM

People still have not acknowledged how Sauron is going to take down the Kyuubi, which is now a part of Naruto. Assuming that, somehow, it is allowed to break free of its seal ... it's gonna be mighty pissed about being anywhere near where it is.

How is Sauron going to defeat a hundred-meter tall demon of pure malice that can knock mountains down with a single swipe of its tail ... and took everything the village of Konoha (the strongest village in the Naruto universe, and home to the two strongest characters in the series: the Third and Forth Hokages, who each were presumably in the battle against the demon) to defeat it (and still couldn't kill it - they could only seal it for a time)?

Naruto, the kid, is just that - a kid. He'd stand absolutely no chance against Sauron. But you start pulling in other factors, such as the Kyuubi ... and the odds are made even.

But as I said: with Naruto being mortal, and Sauron with his phylactery-like Ring ... Naruto would win the battle, but Sauron would win the war.

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 06:58 PM

This pokeman demon, how powerful is it mentally? Physical powers are nothing if the mind is weak. And, honestly, this thread would have been better accepted if it had worked its way through the ranks. Like, Naruto vs. Darth Vader.

EvilElitest

2008-02-07, 07:00 PM

People still have not acknowledged how Sauron is going to take down the Kyuubi, which is now a part of Naruto. Assuming that, somehow, it is allowed to break free of its seal ... it's gonna be mighty pissed about being anywhere near where it is.
i second LL on the idea of it working its way up the ranks, but here are few off the top of my head

1. Sauron turns into Kyuubi.
2. Mental domination, Kyuubi is evil, or at least not good
3. Massive fear power
4. Burning touch
5. In his best form he is hard to kill, he is quite good on his own
from
EE

Rutee

2008-02-07, 07:00 PM

We can presume that it has good mental defenses, as Genjutsu is all illusion-mind affecting powers, and that none of those are what took it out, despite there being masters of the craft fighting it.

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 07:05 PM

I'm assuming that Naruto has it's own definition for pokeman gods, such as "not a fire and brimstone killing machine." So this would mean that the thing would be baked, or worse yet, it could be subjected to severe fear from Sauron's fundamentally absolute wrongness aura.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 07:08 PM

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 07:16 PM

No, I'm pretty sure his Fear Aura isn't going to work on a more powerful being. What's to fear? Notwithstanding that, again, we can presume excellent mental defenses on the part of the Kyuubi, just as we can presume that despite the lack of a canon, omniscient narrator statement that Sauron could paste a hobbit child in a straight fight, Sauron could in fact do so.

And what the hell is this "Pokemon God" nonsense?

http://kobylka_v_pyzamu.bloguje.cz/kyubi.bmp

http://soluciones.solucionesytrucos.org/pokedex/ninetails.gif

^Pokeman God.

How is this P.G. stronger than Sauron? Who cares about size, size matters not! For example, I am now 1 mile tall. Got it? I am now hit with a nuke. Ok? I die. Makes sense, right?

Obrysii

2008-02-07, 07:19 PM

EE, how can Sauron's burning touch hurt a demon whose elemental chakra seems pretty much in the 'fire' category?

EE, how much of Naruto have you actually watched?

Rutee

2008-02-07, 07:21 PM

The_Snark

2008-02-07, 07:21 PM

1. What your friends says is meanenless, my friend says that Gollum could kill Naruto. And he watches the show

Hey! Don't be mean to Gollum...

... he might be able to pull it off if he's sneaky and throttles him in his sleep. I don't know. Heroes are notoriously merciful to pathetic, starving creatures who are half their height.

I sort of agree with Vael, here, hence my lobster/seagull/tennis analogy. It should elicit questions like "What?" and "Gods, why?"

Deadmeat.GW

2008-02-07, 07:25 PM

Ok, and how many times do the illusions themselves actually kill something?

Or are you forgetting one detail, namely that as far as I saw ALL of the illusions are used to make the opponent open for a sneak attack attack and against the fox they simply could not hurt it no matter how much sneak attacks they launched?

Also, how much willpower does it take to disbelieve illusions?

Not much if you actually have animal like senses, those one thousand over there lack a scent, ignore...

And please keep in mind the differences in Fear-effects...

One of them can scare or terrorize a small village...
NAruto resisted, difficultly...

The other one scared an city with people who been fighting Balrogs, dragons and the like soo much that they were paralyzed...

Oslecamo

2008-02-07, 07:26 PM

In a straight fight, not likely. I mean, SAuron lost taking on the most powerful members of a low powerred setting, with an army at his back. The Kyuubi barely lost taking on most of a planet. A planet full of people who seem to be every bit as powerful as LotR's finest.

Well, we have to also consider Naruto world's people are almost as dumb as him.

For example, when Kakashi, one of the best ninjas of the leaf village, fights that water traitor mercenary ninja, he uses his uberprwnz move...Only when the enemy is totally imobilized.

A uberpwrnz move that consumes a great amount of energy. The other guy was totally defenseless, ready to have his throat cuted, but noooo, let's use the uberpwrnz move just for shows and waste precious chakra.

Tsunade wastes energy left and right, as shown on her fight with Kabuto, Orochimaru wastes minions left and right, the list goes on.

Middle earth heros know how to use their resources very effeciently, Naruto heros waste around 90% of their strenght in useless stuff during combat.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 07:28 PM

Energy wastes for dramatic effect are more stupid then constructing an insta-kill weakness into oneself?

Seriously people, don't debate the effectiveness of things done for dramatic effect.

GoC

2008-02-07, 07:32 PM

That is even worst, a pro fanboy can be expected to know powers, somebody who goes out of his way to hate something simple because he is used often in vs. threads is even worst
Whoever said I hated Sauron?

2. He fought six dudes, killed the two greatest
"Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anárion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years."
Where?

Tale of Beron, i don't have the Simeralion on me, but Luthiern is powerful enough to make Morgoth go to sleep but it fails on Sauron. Hmmmm
I meant the "struck by Valar lghtning" bit.

Brains do make a difference in combat, Naurto is flashy but not that samrt
Yeah but Superboy-Prime (a rookie) beat many experienced heroes. Experience isn't that important if the power difference is great.

Look up Gil-ad, he is touched by Sauron and burns to a crisp
Is there a more detailed description then the one I quoted?

2. no, Sauron knew Numenor was powerful and wanted them out of the picture, me and Walking Target talked about this, the Numenorians were threating him, and he decided it would be better to become a prisoner and take over from the inside
Tolkien says that Sauron feared them! Are you contradicting the Silmarillion?:smallconfused:

1. Sauron turns into Kyuubi.
2. Mental domination, Kyuubi is evil, or at least not good
3. Massive fear power
4. Burning touch
5. In his best form he is hard to kill, he is quite good on his own
1. Where in the Silmarillion does he turn into something that powerful? He was beaten by humans! Obviously he can't turn into any creature he wants. So far I've seen a vampire and a were-wolf in the book. Neither are going to help here.
2. Sauron can't dominate anyone he pleases, he'll have to overcome their willpower and any defences/immunities they have.
3. It didn't scare the men of the Last Alliance so why would it scare an immensly powerful demon?
4. If it was that powerful why didn't he use it against Huan?

EvilElitest

2008-02-07, 07:34 PM

LL is just trolling by calling the Kyuubi a pokemon.

He offered some pretty good points on his own

EE, how can Sauron's burning touch hurt a demon whose elemental chakra seems pretty much in the 'fire' category?

I asked for proof, can you show me his fire powers? If so, then yes the burning touch wouldn't work

EE, how much of Naruto have you actually watched?
I read the manga, until the point where the filllers started, then i just stopped. I think the Gaara thing had ended
from
EE

Rutee

2008-02-07, 07:35 PM

Tolkien says that Sauron feared them! Are you contradicting the Silmarillion?
How many times do I have to explain the rules, darnit? Word of God < Word of Fanon around here, /especially/ with Tolkien.

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 07:38 PM

You could at least spell "Pokemon" correctly, if you're not going to use the Pokemanz meme.

Sauron doesn't have the raw power of the Kyuubi, in any reasonable estimation. The Kyuubi was casually destroying the landscape during a fight where it was concentrating its efforts on very small (Relative to itself and said landscape) targets. Size may not be everything, but this particular entity is both large and powerful.

What is a meme? I use pokeman to poke at how this "demon" is very similar to a pokeman. And again, this is all assuming that Naruto even transforms into this pokeman anyway. Sauron would never allow that.

Obrysii

2008-02-07, 07:40 PM

Sauron would never allow that.

Sauron would not have a choice. Naruto does not transform into anything - you've clearly never seen the show. Sure, he can gain a chakra shield around himself, but he does not transform and he does not power up.

SCRUBBED.

Forum Staff: Telling someone they are trolling is, in fact, defined as flaming on this message board.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 07:42 PM

What is a meme? I use pokeman to poke at how this "demon" is very similar to a pokeman.
And Satan looks a lot like Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light. They're both using the same mythical creature as a basis..

Obrysii

2008-02-07, 07:51 PM

I asked for proof, can you show me his fire powers? If so, then yes the burning touch wouldn't work

First episode. The Kyuubi was assaulted with numerous fire techniques. Ignored them.

Naruto is hit by Sasuke's CS-powered great fireball jutsu, no visible damage except a shocked look on his face.

Later, with the Kyuubi's chakra shield around him, he is hit again with a fireball jutsu. Just stands there, unharmed.

Naruto heals through burning - his wounds sizzle closed. When he goes to 4-tails, his body is constantly burning and rehealing.

I read the manga, until the point where the filllers started, then i just stopped. I think the Gaara thing had ended

Gaara vs. Kimimaro? Or Gaara vs. Deidara? Or Gaara vs. Naruto?

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 07:51 PM

Sucrose,
I was not using a straw man argument.
I don't watch Naruto.
I was disputing Rutee's claim that Sauron would wait around with his thumb up his but while someone charged up. He clearly would not.
You do not have to be genre savvy to kill someone when they aren't attacking out. What, precisely, would Sauron be doing when said person was charging up? The whole premise of the argument makes no sense. Only retarded characters or characters written by retarded authors would wait and Sauron is neither. The only other option is if the author explains that, in his made up world, the whole world (or immediate vicinity) freezes while the charging up is being done. If no such explanation is offered or apparent then we must assume that the characters are to stupid, afraid, or whatever to attack. Either that or the author is too stupid to realise that people don't wait for things like that.

Notice that I am not insulting anyone here so don't get man anyone.

Now, if Naruto can't simply charge up this thing then all Sauron has to do is Kill him instead of injure him. Luckily Sauron has shown no preference to toy with his prey and will simply chop the guys head off.

EDIT: Never once did I assert anything about all anime.
You read between the lines and saw something that was not there.
You only saw it because you wanted it to be there.
You onyl have yourself to blame for your feeling of being offended.

Rowanomicon,

Re: Just killing Naruto; I admit, that has a high probability. However, it isn't an absolute law that Sauron will succeed. Naruto is fast, and relatively strong. As such, he might be able to dodge enough that the kyubi has time to activate.

As for the whole charging up thing; I agree, without an in-universe explanation, or at least a decent hiding place, standing there charging up is utterly retarded. However, I don't recall DBZ being an important point in this thread.

Lastly, your edit is blatantly false. You stated that all anime combatants ever were handicapped for not noticing the second point in this post. However, as I indicated in my spoiler, this is not correct. As such, I have every right to blame you for my feeling of indignation.

EvilElitest

2008-02-07, 07:51 PM

Whoever said I hated Sauron?

You are

"Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anárion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years."
Where?

Are you using the Simeralion? Ciron (lord of the shipwrights,) Glorfindal and Elrond assist in teh fight. However they don't do anything super special

I meant the "struck by Valar lghtning" bit.

oh, check the section on his take over of Numenor, the Valar attempt to destroy him directly with lighting but fail.

Yeah but Superboy-Prime (a rookie) beat many experienced heroes. Experience isn't that important if the power difference is great.

brains

Is there a more detailed description then the one I quoted?
in LOTRS itself

Tolkien says that Sauron feared them! Are you contradicting the Silmarillion?:smallconfused:
Check again, make sure (i dont' have the book now) that he just wasn't afraid of their army. It wasn't so much him being afraid, it was however him being afraid of fighting a huge long war with a powerful force

1. Where in the Silmarillion does he turn into something that powerful? He was beaten by humans! Obviously he can't turn into any creature he wants. So far I've seen a vampire and a were-wolf in the book. Neither are going to help here.
2. Sauron can't dominate anyone he pleases, he'll have to overcome their willpower and any defences/immunities they have.
3. It didn't scare the men of the Last Alliance so why would it scare an immensly powerful demon?
4. If it was that powerful why didn't he use it against Huan?

1. He turned into a lot of things, however as he knew only a wolf would work against the dog he tried that. It failed due to prophecy and he fled after surrendering the tower. Their is no mentioned limit on his powers
2. Only if they posses the qualities to resist him, Naurto has them to an extent, but the demon is evil right?
3. Because they had been exposed to it before and could get over it. Because they are good, which in the Tolkien world helps against fear. Because only six managed to do it
4. The dude who is taken prisoner?

By continuing to use "pokeman" ... it is assured that you are a mere troll, and you are, in fact, baiting
not really, only if your ignore his points, calling a guy who mocks the fox a troll is rather immature, i mean he does have that "I choose you" quality to a minor extent

How many times do I have to explain the rules, darnit? Word of God < Word of Fanon around here, /especially/ with Tolkien.
Rutee, do you do anything other than just grip about Sauron? I mean i don't notice you offering any points or counter points and you stead fastly refuse to read the material. If i have to i'll watch naurto to prove a point, only in japenese. You are basically accusing me of not knowing my sources and yet you don't offer anything yourself to prove me wrong or yourself right?
from
EE

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 08:01 PM

You are
2. Only if they posses the qualities to resist him, Naurto has them to an extent, but the demon is evil right?

Correct, the kyubi is evil. I don't know that that's adequate for Sauron to be able to control him, though. Is Sauron able to control the Balrogs? I was under the impression that he could not, that they were servants of Morgoth, like he was, but powerful enough that he couldn't just demand their allegiance.

Likewise, I'd argue that the kyubi is probably on par with Sauron in terms of sheer power, so Sauron can't just warp its mind.

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 08:01 PM

Naruto is dead, live with it. Small child + Angsty "Demon" =/= Beating Sauron.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 08:02 PM

Correct, the kyubi is evil. I don't know that that's adequate for Sauron to be able to control him, though. Is Sauron able to control the Balrogs? I was under the impression that he could not, that they were servants of Morgoth, like he was, but powerful enough that he couldn't just demand their allegiance.

Likewise, I'd argue that the kyubi is probably on par with Sauron in terms of sheer power.

The whole "Sauron controls all evil" thing is an invention of Warty Goblin's, by his own admission, not an actual ability. I wouldn't worry about debating it.

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 08:05 PM

I think that EE provides a good point here.

Why would Naruto win? Answer that.

Tengu

2008-02-07, 08:05 PM

Seriously people, don't debate the effectiveness of things done for dramatic effect.

They do it because they know that if they pull a good enough stunt, they will get the essence used for the attack back anyway.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 08:07 PM

They do it because they know that if they pull a good enough stunt, they will get the essence used for the attack back anyway.

And a mechanical bonus to the effectiveness, it's true.

Why would Naruto win? Answer that.
Because the Kyuubi has overwhelming power compared to Sauron's raw power. There's no reason to believe that Sauron's strengths will work effectively on it, either. Perhaps given time, he could corrupt it, for instance, but time is not something he will exactly get a lot of. It takes months for the Ring, the very focus of his essence, to cause Boromir to make a major hwem-up in his selfishness, and he immediately atones for this. Boromir is not a superhuman exposed to mental influence attacks on a regular basis, with the exception of the Ring.

There's no evidence to believe that Sauron could eat that kind of raw power (Again, without trying, it was destroying the land scape) on a regular basis. Further, Sauron's other strength (His army) is also out, since it's a one-on-one battle.

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 08:08 PM

Naruto is dead, live with it. Small child + Angsty "Demon" =/= Beating Sauron.

What about a non-angsty demon that nearly destroys a high-powered setting all by himself?

The whole "Sauron controls all evil" thing is an invention of Warty Goblin's, by his own admission, not an actual ability. I wouldn't worry about debating it.

Ah, okay. I've read through LOTR, and skimmed the Silmarillion, and I didn't recall anything like that. Still, if it's being argued by one side, the other can't let it stay uncontested.

(I don't really think that Naruto would win, but I also think that Sauron's supporters are being a bit too flippant about it. If you take on someone from a high-powered setting, no matter how stupid he is, you need to treat him as a threat. Especially when that universe's Devil has a direct interest in keeping him alive.)

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 08:11 PM

Again, I will say that this is all assuming that Sauron allows the "demon" to take form.

Obrysii

2008-02-07, 08:14 PM

Why would Naruto win? Answer that.

He has a demon inside of him that can level mountains with a single swipe of one of its nine tails, and that an entire village of extremely powerful people failed to so much as damage?

As we've all said: Naruto, the kid, cannot win. But Naruto with the power of the Kyuubi - then the playing field is made level. Once the Kyuubi's power has bubbled out at 4 tails or more ... then Naruto gains enough power to simply destroy Sauron in combat. Before then, it's gonna be close to dead-even.

And Sauron does not have to "allow" the demon's chakra to form. It happens according to the threat that Naruto faces. If Naruto dies, the demon presumably dies - and it will do everything within its power to prevent that. That's why Shukaku, the demon bound inside of Gaara, protects Gaara with a shield of sand. That's why Naruto can access the Kyuubi's power.

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 08:14 PM

Again, I will say that this is all assuming that Sauron allows the "demon" to take form.

Under that assumption, Sauron loses. Full stop. The kyubi has enough power to level mountains without effort. If Sauron had that kind of power, he would have no need for orcs.

Seriously, people, Sauron wins, but that's no excuse for being lazy about this. If it were sheer power, he would get owned. It's because he has direct access to all of his power, and the kyubi doesn't work for Naruto all the time, allowing for a one-hit kill, that he would win.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 08:17 PM

Again, I will say that this is all assuming that Sauron allows the "demon" to take form.

I imagine ground zero of the transformation is not a place you want to be at. Why are you so sure that he could stop it?

IMO, in a contest of raw power, there's pretty much no way Sauron's going to win. I'm not even convinced he could beat Naruto in a straight fight. Naruto, however, doesn't have power overwhelming on his own, so it's not ilke if Sauron fought Kurtis or Laharl, where no amount of trickery is going to save him. The Kyuubi /does/ have power overwhelming. If it came down to anything resembling a battle where the Kyuubi comes out, Sauron's pretty screwed.

With all that said, given his penchant for trickery and deceit, he really should be able to eliminate Naruto in a manner as painless for himself as possible. But I'm not going to repeat my position after this. There comes a point where it's not necessary, or detracts fromt he argument..

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 08:17 PM

No, I'm going to go out and say that Sauron did need the orcs. You can't control all corners of the globe from one spot.

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 08:20 PM

I imagine ground zero of the transformation is not a place you want to be at. Why are you so sure that he could stop it?

IMO, in a contest of raw power, there's pretty much no way Sauron's going to win. I'm not even convinced he could beat Naruto in a straight fight. Naruto, however, doesn't have power overwhelming on his own, so it's not ilke if Sauron fought Kurtis or Laharl, where no amount of trickery is going to save him. The Kyuubi /does/ have power overwhelming. If it came down to anything resembling a battle where the Kyuubi comes out, Sauron's pretty screwed.

With all that said, given his penchant for trickery and deceit, he really should be able to eliminate Naruto in a manner as painless for himself as possible. But I'm not going to repeat my position after this. There comes a point where it's not necessary, or detracts fromt he argument..

Unless this transformation, as you called it, takes place in absolutely no time at all then Sauron can sprint and stab Naruto.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 08:21 PM

Unless this transformation, as you called it, takes place in absolutely no time at all then Sauron can sprint and stab Naruto.

If the transformation is happening, the Demon's going to shield him with chakra.

I'm vaguely surprised that you don't have the decency to admit that Sauron's raw power is nowhere near this thing's.

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 08:24 PM

If the transformation is happening, the Demon's going to shield him with chakra.

I'm vaguely surprised that you don't have the decency to admit that Sauron's raw power is nowhere near this thing's.

I'm not. It seems reasonably clear to me that Lizardfolk Lich has no idea how the universe of Naruto works. Or, for that matter, what these characters are like.

For the record, Lizardfolk Lich? Sasuke's the emo; the kyubi, insomuch as it is a character, is more of a nihilist, who just seeks to watch the world burn.

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 08:26 PM

Rutee

2008-02-07, 08:28 PM

I guess. I wonder how one of the shrewder characters who /isn't/ that uber in raw power would do against Sauron. Shikamaru being most prominent on my mind. Granted that I don't remember him as clearly as I ought, but I recall him having actual tactical ability and genius..

I'm vaguely surprised you don't realize how powerful Sauron is. You are continually assuming that Sauron is a very powerful fighter. This is both right and wrong, he is a very powerful fighter but he is also an omnipotent demigod of war. This "demon" is just a beast. You assume that Sauron will be slowed by his armor, this isn't true. Average knights are trained to wear their armor as a second skin. I'm sure that if Sauron had wings he could fly in his armor.

I assumed none of that about him being slow. Why should I believe he's an omnipotent demigod of war when /he gets dropped/. You lose claims to omnipotence when you're beaten, let alone by Mortals in a setting where "Mortal = not that great".

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 08:30 PM

Oh no, we are gonna stay on this topic of Naruto until someone admits defeat!:smallwink:

GoC

2008-02-07, 08:30 PM

You are[sic]
Where?

Are you using the Simeralion? Ciron (lord of the shipwrights,) Glorfindal and Elrond assist in teh fight. However they don't do anything super special
That's a direct quote from the Silmarillion. Are there two versions of the fight?

oh, check the section on his take over of Numenor, the Valar attempt to destroy him directly with lighting but fail.
One of the Valar sent a fleet of eagles who bombarded the island with lightning. One of them hit Sauron and he survived.
Not exactly a divine smite is it?

in LOTRS itself
Chapter/page #?

Check again, make sure (i dont' have the book now) that he just wasn't afraid of their army. It wasn't so much him being afraid, it was however him being afraid of fighting a huge long war with a powerful force
"He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth; but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart."
This was a time when he wasn't leading armies or plotting to overthrow the world. He didn't just fear that they'd destroy his army, he (rightfully) feared they'd destroy him. It's also obvious that he cannot either corrupt or defeat whole armies (without an army of his own). The fox demon on the other hand can easily kill an army of humans.

1. He turned into a lot of things, however as he knew only a wolf would work against the dog he tried that. It failed due to prophecy and he fled after surrendering the tower. Their is no mentioned limit on his powers
2. Only if they posses the qualities to resist him, Naurto has them to an extent, but the demon is evil right?
3. Because they had been exposed to it before and could get over it. Because they are good, which in the Tolkien world helps against fear. Because only six managed to do it
4. The dude who is taken prisoner?
1. So as there's no mention limit on what he can turn into we assume he can become anything? Sorry, that's not gonna to fly. Or why didn't he turn into Superman at the fortress?
not really, only if your ignore his points, calling a guy who mocks the fox a troll is rather immature, i mean he does have that "I choose you" quality to a minor extent
2. You really think Sauron can dominate a mountain-destroying demon? Is there even any evidence for this?
3. So it wasn't really an army camped around his fortress but only six people besieging a castle several miles wide? Oooookay.
4. ...
What?:smallconfused:
You know, Huan? The Hound of the Gods whom you used several times in the tag team thread?

Rutee, do you do anything other than just grip about Sauron? I mean i don't notice you offering any points or counter points and you stead fastly refuse to read the material.
She did make one point. She said that if humans without powers can defeat Sauron then he obvously can't be as powerful as you claim.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 08:35 PM

I'm not sure why he seems to expect me to read or refute the points of someone who's posts I can't read. I really only notice that kind of thing in your quotes, GoC.

Oh no, we are gonna stay on this topic of Naruto until someone admits defeat!
You're not providing any reason to believe Sauron could win in a straight fight against people who demonstrate powers far and away above anything he has, in a fight, which is obviously what you mean since I already pointed out that Sauron would probably win in a non-straight fight.

Either way, I know when I'm beaten. I very clearly do not have as much free time to debate this on the intertubes as you do, and since you refuse to accept or provide anything rational, the argument would boil down to "Yeah huh!" "Nuh uh!" as is the standard.

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 08:35 PM

I'm vaguely surprised you don't realize how powerful Sauron is. You are continually assuming that Sauron is a very powerful fighter. This is both right and wrong, he is a very powerful fighter but he is also an omnipotent demigod of war. This "demon" is just a beast. You assume that Sauron will be slowed by his armor, this isn't true. Average knights are trained to wear their armor as a second skin. I'm sure that if Sauron had wings he could fly in his armor.

We realize how powerful Sauron is. He was an excellent shapeshifter, a being of supreme will and force, a manipulator that puts Moriarty to shame, and many other ingenious things. He is the supreme evil overlord, and threatens to envelop the world in misery.

However, none of that matters in the face of the kyubi. The kyubi is a force of nature such that giant fireballs, warriors larger than ents, and all manner of crazy attacks could do nothing against it. It was only defeated (not killed, merely contained) by the sacrifice of the greatest warrior and mage to ever live in its (much higher-powered than LOTR) setting, along with countless elites from his tribe, and the blood sacrifice of allowing a child to have to bear the monstrosity within it.

Sauron, with all of his armies, threatened to dominate Middle-Earth, but was held back by the last vestiges of Gondor. The kyubi, before its sealing, had NOTHING that could stop it, with no need for armies. It ran roughshod over the entire, high-powered setting.

Kojiro Kakita

2008-02-07, 08:37 PM

At as reiterated by other members here, you sir LL, do not understand the nature of a kyuubi. Looking at one we know from it, we can believe it is Kishimoto's version of the "Nine-taled fox" found in Japanese Mythology. If this is the case, it is not only a super-powered monster, but it is also on a divine lvl and can be compared to a god.

Oslecamo

2008-02-07, 08:43 PM

Energy wastes for dramatic effect are more stupid then constructing an insta-kill weakness into oneself?

Weakness? Let's review what powers the ring granted to counter that:

1-Total control over ALL the other mighty rings.
2-Powerfull corrupting tool that led to the death of Isildur and almost made Sauron win the whole war, if it wasn't for Gollum's last stand.
3-The ring can only be destroyed in a specific place in the middle of his territorry.

Remember, the cut and die from the movie is just for shows. In the books, they kill him first, and only then take the ring from his dead stabbed body.

If you go by the movie, then Sauron will be freakishly strong, as he swipes kings, mens and elves like they were leaves, and Isildur only wins thanks to the luckiest critical hit of history.

Choose what Sauron version you want, but you can't have the weak Sauron of the books with the weakness of the movie Sauron.

If it's movie Sauron, then helly yeah he can go with Naruto toe to toe.

Naruto never manages to fully release his demon's power, as he gets beaten several times with characters wich decidely can't wipe out muntains in a swipe.

GoC

2008-02-07, 08:43 PM

This is both right and wrong, he is a very powerful fighter but he is also an omnipotent demigod of war. This "demon" is just a beast.

I've got to laugh! LOL!
Sauron doesn't need his army. Sauron is omnipotent. Sauron is the demigod of war. yadda yadda...
Did you even read the Silmarillion?

Rutee: Listen to Oslecamo. The ring is a powerful tool and actualy didn't make him any weaker. It was only a series of lucky accidents that allowed it to be destroyed.
I also have a theory he created the ring to prevent his power being used up. Otherwise he may have been unable to reform after being killed a few times and would become like he is at the end of LotR.

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 08:45 PM

Rutee

2008-02-07, 08:45 PM

Weakness? Let's review what powers the ring granted to counter that:

None of that matters from a meta-perspective, which is what we're talking. He built an insta-kill weakness into himself. This is immensely more stupid from a meta-perspective then throwing around extra energy, and at least as dramatic.

Edit: Oh, no, I'm not talking about chopping the ring off. I mean destruction of the ring automatically destroys Sauron. This is an insta-kill weakness, and despite all the IC reasons for him to do it, you can not argue that it was smart from a meta-perspective. I can give you IC reasons why being flashy on a helpless guy instead of the classic "JUST SHOOT HIM" idea, but it won't change the fact that from a meta-perspective, it was an idiotic idea.

Rutee: Listen to Oslecamo. The ring is a powerful tool and actualy didn't make him any weaker. It was only a series of lucky accidents that allowed it to be destroyed.
I also have a theory he created the ring to prevent his power being used up. Otherwise he may have been unable to reform after being killed a few times and would become like he is at the end of LotR.
You would be a terrible evil overlord. Unless you're on the Discworld, anyway.. if under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES your tools can instantly ruin you, the tool is a loaded gun pointed at your heart. Dramatic Effect necessitates that these potentially ENORMOUS weaknesses WILL be used against you. PEriod, end of discussion. That is why, from a meta perspective, the Ring was a fragging stupid idea. From an In-character one, it makes /perfect/ sense.

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 08:45 PM

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 08:50 PM

Weakness? Let's review what powers the ring granted to counter that:

1-Total control over ALL the other mighty rings.
2-Powerfull corrupting tool that led to the death of Isildur and almost made Sauron win the whole war, if it wasn't for Gollum's last stand.
3-The ring can only be destroyed in a specific place in the middle of his territorry.

Remember, the cut and die from the movie is just for shows. In the books, they kill him first, and only then take the ring from his dead stabbed body.

If you go by the movie, then Sauron will be freakishly strong, as he swipes kings, mens and elves like they were leaves, and Isildur only wins thanks to the luckiest critical hit of history.

Choose what Sauron version you want, but you can't have the weak Sauron of the books with the weakness of the movie Sauron.

If it's movie Sauron, then helly yeah he can go with Naruto toe to toe.

Naruto never manages to fully release his demon's power, as he gets beaten several times with characters wich decidely can't wipe out muntains in a swipe.
Finally, some sense! Yes, Naruto would lose. That was and is my position. This is because Sauron would one-shot him. HOWEVER, Lizardfolk Lich was making the assumption that Sauron could go up against the most powerful being in a shonen universe. That is, simply put, incorrect.

ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS ASSUMING THAT NARUTO HAS THE TIME TO TRANSFORM. You say transform, not shapeshift. Shapeshifting happens very quickly, transforming takes time. ESPECIALLY IN ANIME. If you want to make Naruto anime strength, give him anime weaknesses too! You have to otherwise it is simply a Dues Ex Machina against Sauron.

That's the thing... there are no anime weaknesses. First of all, you cannot generalize about anime, as they are not all DBZ. Secondly, for Naruto's transformation, during said transformation, he is perfectly shielded by the kyuubi's chakra.

And yes, it's Dues Ex Machina. That's why I was saying it's stupid to try to argue Sauron could win against it.

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 08:55 PM

Hold on, I was not informed of this Dues Ex Machina. Very well then, it is no contest. The rules of D.E.M. state that Sauron loses.:smallannoyed:

The Unborne

2008-02-07, 08:57 PM

ESPECIALLY IN ANIME.

Hmm, well anime is only there to help spread the franchise across different medias. Basically they have to fit a 20 page chapter into a full 30 minute show. So going by the manga, Naruto gaining the Kyuubi shroud without tails takes approximately one full splash page in the Fourth volume...That's pretty fast. Our little orange genin also summoned Kyuubi's chakra while falling down a great chasm...during this he started talking to the Nine-tailed fox in his mind and came back out with seemingly no time being passed outside the real world. So we can discredit the time it takes for him to be in his memory states.

I don't have the chapter in front of me, but I'm sure Naruto can go One-tail transformation in about 2-3 pages and these pages are just bits and pieces of Naruto's body being shown as the chakra envelops him. My point is the Anime is meant to prolong everything so they can fit everything in a nice 30 minute segment. Its getting ridiculous now because the new episodes just show face expressions half the time. The manga at least shows everything in the high-speed action its meant to be in.

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 09:05 PM

Hold on, I was not informed of this Dues Ex Machina. Very well then, it is no contest. The rules of D.E.M. state that Sauron loses.:smallannoyed:

Thank you for being a good sport about it. I, too, am sad that a pillar of villainy such as Sauron would fall against Naruto under certain circumstances.:smallfrown:

That's just the difficulty of the extreme power levels involved in shonen.

Oslecamo

2008-02-07, 09:07 PM

Edit: Oh, no, I'm not talking about chopping the ring off. I mean destruction of the ring automatically destroys Sauron. This is an insta-kill weakness, and despite all the IC reasons for him to do it, you can not argue that it was smart from a meta-perspective. I can give you IC reasons why being flashy on a helpless guy instead of the classic "JUST SHOOT HIM" idea, but it won't change the fact that from a meta-perspective, it was an idiotic idea.

Yeah, it's insta kill, but it's far away from stupid, because it demands the ring to be thrown into the biggest freaking active volcano in existence.

So you're saying that Sauron's weakness is being thrown to an active volcano. Well, that's not a very bad deal, because I'm pretty sure that if someone managed to make Sauron fall into mt.doom core he would die, ring or no ring.

Thus, it was actually a smart idea. He gave himself a weakness that he already had.

And let's see this from a strategic view point:the volcano is in the middle of his territorry.

Anyone wanting to exploit that "weakness" would need to passs trough his troops, elite troops, fortress, barren wastes and resist the corrupting power of the ring.

You may call this stupid, but I call it a genious plan, that only failed due to Gollum ex-machina, who should have died out of starvation and thirst a long time ago.

Artemician

2008-02-07, 09:09 PM

ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS ASSUMING THAT NARUTO HAS THE TIME TO TRANSFORM. You say transform, not shapeshift. Shapeshifting happens very quickly, transforming takes time. ESPECIALLY IN ANIME. If you want to make Naruto anime strength, give him anime weaknesses too! You have to otherwise it is simply a Dues Ex Machina against Sauron.

There are no such things as "anime weaknesses" or "anime strengths". Stop crapping around.

Charge time is a feature found in some shows, which may render a character vulnerable to surprise attacks. In Naruto's case, it doesn't, for explicit reasons which have already been detailed.

And no, it's not DEM, any more than "Sauron can't be destroyed unless the RIng is too" is DEM. Deal with it.

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 09:11 PM

There are no such things as "anime weaknesses" or "anime strengths". Stop crapping around.

Charge time is a feature found in some shows, which may render a character vulnerable to surprise attacks. In Naruto's case, it doesn't, for explicit reasons which have already been detailed.

And no, it's not DEM, any more than "Sauron can't be destroyed unless the RIng is too" is DEM. Deal with it.

To be fair, Artemician, it is DEM in the most literal sense- the fight is resolved by the intervention of a divine entity, the Kyuubi.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 09:11 PM

It is stupid, from a meta-perspective that recognizes Dramatic Effect as being a law of the universe (Which it is, since it's a story). I will repeat for the last time, for any rational person in Sauron's shoes, and discounting Genre-savviness, the Ring was an incredibly smart move.

It's not stupid until you factor in that as it's a story, the heroes WILL exploit your weakness. If your only weakness is something that instantly kills you, well, GG.

You may call this stupid, but I call it a genious plan, that only failed due to Gollum ex-machina, who should have died out of starvation and thirst a long time ago.
It failed because the plot demanded it; Which the plot was going to do. Facilitating your own plot-demanded downfall is not smart, from a meta perspective on effectiveness.

It does make you an excellent villain, however.

Artemician

2008-02-07, 09:12 PM

To be fair, Artemician, it is DEM in the most literal sense- the fight is resolved by the intervention of a divine entity, the Kyuubi.

On the other hand.. we don't really know that it's Divine, or anything. Could be Daemonic, no? :smallwink:

Lizardfolk Lich

2008-02-07, 09:13 PM

So... Good game everyone?:smallsmile:

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 09:14 PM

On the other hand.. we don't really know that it's Divine, or anything. Could be Daemonic, no? :smallwink:

Quite true.:smallwink: That doesn't matter for the power scales involved, though.

Edit: Good game, Lizardfolk Lich:smallsmile: .

Rowanomicon

2008-02-07, 09:55 PM

You can't say that Sauron is stupid for building an instant kill switch because no one knew what would happen if The Ring was destroyed.
Also it can only be destroyed in a very specific place that is so ridiculously guarded you'd have to be suicidal or just plain dumb to trespas. Also it is stated (word of god) that no one could willingly bring harm to The Ring.

So your whole theory about Sauron being meta-stupid is out right wrong. Sorry.

Obrysii

2008-02-07, 09:58 PM

In Naruto's case, it doesn't, for explicit reasons which have already been detailed.

In the manga, it takes four panels on the same page to "power up" to his one-tailed state. It's just enough time for Sasuke to release his grip.

Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/230/17/) it is. It's a lot different from the anime, which takes a long time for the chakra to "bubble" to the surface.

Edit: It also reinforces the idea that the Kyuubi is a fire-element, as the water boils around them.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 09:58 PM

True or false: Sauron's instant-kill weakness is what killed him in the end.

Rowanomicon

2008-02-07, 10:06 PM

Nightgaunt

2008-02-07, 10:12 PM

Naruto heals through burning - his wounds sizzle closed. When he goes to 4-tails, his body is constantly burning and rehealing.

I am fan of both Naruto and LotR. However this point is incorrect as was explained in the last few episodes release (Japanese Subs). Naruto is NOT healing, he is constantly taking damage when in the Nine-Tails state. His blood and flesh is mixing with the Chakra of the nine-tails.

Also when Naruto has more then 3 tails he loses control of himself, hardly an optimum position from which to fight a battle. He lost himselt to the point that he was willing to harm a person whom he loves as much as a kid anime can experience love. At that point all Sauron would have to do is avoid him (no small feat if it's an arena battle to be sure) and when the tail ends Naruto falls unconscious. Sakura heals him in the series and he is still supremely weak just from changing forms.

I can't really pick a winner here because the genre's are so supremely different the fight just seems silly in my head. And to those who disregarded friendship in the Naruto series I wish that you would go back and watch the gaara fight where Naruto screams at gaara that they are his friends. Power of friendship is a big theme in Naruto, it's the whole reason he's going after Sasuke (How can I be the Hokage if I can't even save my best friend?).

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 10:14 PM

False. It's falling into the fire of Mt. Doom diminished him to the point that he was no longer an effective threat.
I'll assume, however, that this is what you meant, so it's basically true.

True or false: He knew what would happen if it were to be destroyed?

True. However, that doesn't change the fact that it was meta-stupid. As Rutee has said many times, in real-world logic, it was a brilliant calculated risk (extreme gain for nearly irrelevant drawback? Can I get a hell yeah?).

However, if one is working under the assumption that he lives in a narrative world, which is the foundation of meta-thinking, having any weakness, no matter how minor, guarantees that it will either kill you (if you're a villain) or come up repeatedly to hamper you(if you're the hero). As such, giving yourself one is tantamount to suicide.

Thus, while Sauron would be brilliant if Middle-Earth was the real world, if he were aware that his life is bound by the laws of narrative causality, the actions that he took would be incredibly stupid.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 10:14 PM

I have no idea, but if he didn't know it would basically end him, I'll retract the "insta-kill" from "Deliberately constructed an insta-kill weakness into himself".

Fact of the matter remains, he set himself up, from a dramatic perspective. Sauron as a character is not stupid for this; The reasons why this was smart from his perspective have been enumerated at length. From our perspective as people reading a story, we also know The Ring is going to ultimately be destroyed, ending him as a threat. It's exactly as smart as the Empire building a small thermal exhaust port into the Death Star, really. There's no rational reason to believe either could be taken advantage of

Rowanomicon

2008-02-07, 10:20 PM

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 10:26 PM

He did not, in fact, know the consequences of The Ring being destroyed until it was.

So we're now saying that Sauron is, in fact, brilliant, but the power of plot was stacked against him? You'll get no argument form me.

Yeah, that's pretty much what it boils down to: the whole meta argument had to do with literary logic, not real world logic.

Edit: Is that really true, Rowanomicon? I'd think that Sauron would realize the bad things that could happen if something that had most of his power bound into it was destroyed.

Granted, I know he didn't think that anyone could do it, but I'd think that he'd understand the implications even at the moment of creation.

hylian chozo

2008-02-07, 10:30 PM

I don't recall vs. threads having plots, rendering meta-thinking null and void.

Rutee

2008-02-07, 10:34 PM

I don't recall vs. threads having plots, rendering meta-thinking null and void.

I wasn't positting it as having an effect on the versus thread. I was pointing out that Sauron isn't genre-savvy due to it. Then people started to argue the point..

GoC

2008-02-07, 10:35 PM

So... Good game everyone?:smallsmile:

Only if you agree that I win! :smallbiggrin:

Sucrose

2008-02-07, 10:36 PM

I don't recall vs. threads having plots, rendering meta-thinking null and void.

The whole meta-thinking train had to do with the supposed charge time of the Kyuubi transformation (which doesn't really exist). It was pointed out that during this fictional charge time, Sauron could attack Naruto.

However, only genre savvy enemies can attack during charge times, as they're implied in most cases to take much less time than generally shown, so taking advantage of the artistic choice of the producer would be taking a brick out of the fourth wall.

Thus, people started discussing whether Sauron is genre-savvy. Sadly, while he is a brilliant real-world logic strategist, genre savviness is definitely not one of his skills.

Edit: ninja'd...by someone in a Green Beret, no less!

EvilElitest

2008-02-08, 12:02 AM

Where?

I'm actualy just anti-Sauron fanboy not pro-Narutu.
Your an anti Sauron fanboy? The logic doesn't work

That's a direct quote from the Silmarillion. Are there two versions of the fight?

The silmarillion only brushes upon the the third age, LOTRS are more detailed

One of the Valar sent a fleet of eagles who bombarded the island with lightning. One of them hit Sauron and he survived.
Not exactly a divine smite is it?
slow down, if you going to use a book, use it right. The Valar sent a fleet of magical clouds shaped like eagles that shot divine lighting, very different from lighting shooting eagles. Also Sauron stands on top of a bloody temple of Morgoth and deflects them, that is also quite different

Chapter/page #?
for the other dudes? Glordindal is said to have stood before the dark lord in Many Meetings, Elrond and Ciron are said to have fought along side the Lords of Elves and men against Sauron in the Council of Elrond.

"He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth; but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart."
This was a time when he wasn't leading armies or plotting to overthrow the world. He didn't just fear that they'd destroy his army, he (rightfully) feared they'd destroy him.
Um dude, that doesn't say he fears for his life, that means he fears them showing up, and considering they are all badass and have a freaking huge advanced army and he is already running war then that is a pretty good fear
2. Um, when was this? Your talking about when the last king of Numenor shows up and sauron "surrender" to him (later taking over the country in three years) right? He had an army then, he was still in mordor

It's also obvious that he cannot either corrupt or defeat whole armies (without an army of his own). The fox demon on the other hand can easily kill an army of humans.
1. Corruption varies on the general goodness/modesty of the army. But it is a slow process, better used when you have time on your side
3. Can the fox even do that? see below

1. So as there's no mention limit on what he can turn into we assume he can become anything? Sorry, that's not gonna to fly. Or why didn't he turn into Superman at the fortress?

2. You really think Sauron can dominate a mountain-destroying demon? Is there even any evidence for this?
3. So it wasn't really an army camped around his fortress but only six people besieging a castle several miles wide? Oooookay.

1. Alright, the world biggest Werewolf and Vampire are defeated right? So Sauron turns into an even bigger WereWolf and later Vampire. So he can turn into freaking big stuff, and assume some of their powers. And superman, what?
2. The demon is evil. Sauron can dominate evil (see quote below). However for an Arena match that isn't very useful, fear is however
3. Ever member of that army had resistance. The humans were to the man people who survived under his tyranny in Numenor and had been exposed to his corruption. The elves are, well elves, they already knew about him. And they are all good, something Sauron is not good against

4. ...
What?:smallconfused:
You know, Huan? The Hound of the Gods whom you used several times in the tag team thread?
Ah, that guy. I always forget his name. Why did he lose to Huan? Well, considering you have the book, and this has been covered a dozen times i'd think you'd catch on
Huan is protected by a prophecy. In the world of Tolkien, if you don't forfill the exact desires of the prophecy, your screwed, even if your freaking Morgoth. It is impossible to over come a prophecy (though if you have a prophecy protecting you, you will die no matter what). Sauron tried to bypass the prophecy by turning into the greatest wolf in the world, but that wasn't enough as he wasn't truly that. So he literally couldn't win, it is impossible according to the rules of Tolkien. He attempted to explote a loophole and it back fired

She did make one point. She said that if humans without powers can defeat Sauron then he obvously can't be as powerful as you claim.
Super humans and elves with powers (just not flashy Charka ones). Remember people, brains. Brains make a far larger difference then raw power

Correct, the kyubi is evil. I don't know that that's adequate for Sauron to be able to control him, though. Is Sauron able to control the Balrogs? I was under the impression that he could not, that they were servants of Morgoth, like he was, but powerful enough that he couldn't just demand their allegiance.

Sauron commanded both the Balrog of Moria and a troop of Balrogs in the first age

Likewise, I'd argue that the kyubi is probably on par with Sauron in terms of sheer power, so Sauron can't just warp its mind.

evidence?

The whole "Sauron controls all evil" thing is an invention of Warty Goblin's, by his own admission, not an actual ability. I wouldn't worry about debating it.
Rutte, when you ignore posts that disagree with you, you miss some things.
Not quite what he said, but close
Fellowship of the ring, book 1 p. 68, "Shadow of the Past"

"Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the dark powers was bending all of its will to gather them their"
Now this includes evils that don't directly serve Sauron, Gollum has a very very good reason not to go to mordor, but did so anyways even though he had no logical reason to do so, along with other evils

However, as i said before, that isn't really useful in an area fight, however some of his other powers are

I think that EE provides a good point here.

Why would Naruto win? Answer that.
the game are on

Because the Kyuubi has overwhelming power compared to Sauron's raw power.
Haven't you accused me of using bad arguments, what is this? What power people

Just to put this out here, your people are Naruto fans? Naruto must have a massive amount of videos out on the internet and fan base infomation, provide me with sources examples ect. I mean nobody proved taht the Fox dude is fire proof and i'm not going to watch Naruto's episodes to simple satisfy my curiosity

There's no reason to believe that Sauron's strengths will work effectively on it, either. Perhaps given time, he could corrupt it, for instance, but time is not something he will exactly get a lot of. It takes months for the Ring, the very focus of his essence, to cause Boromir to make a major hwem-up in his selfishness, and he immediately atones for this. Boromir is not a superhuman exposed to mental influence attacks on a regular basis, with the exception of the Ring.

1. Fear?
2. Ok, screw corruption, domination works as well (different)
3. Boromir was a good guy normally, so the ring took longer to work

Nother question, isn't the charka stuff basically magic? yeah, yeah it is? How do they use it?
I'd gladly take this argument seriously ("My kids only need one meal a day, there small, and my wife can take a third job") then please provide me with sources.

I guess. I wonder how one of the shrewder characters who /isn't/ that uber in raw power would do against Sauron. Shikamaru being most prominent on my mind. Granted that I don't remember him as clearly as I ought, but I recall him having actual tactical ability and genius.
on that note, why doesn't the Lich King get vs. thread? Arguing Sauron's side gets old

I assumed none of that about him being slow. Why should I believe he's an omnipotent demigod of war when /he gets dropped/. You lose claims to omnipotence when you're beaten, let alone by Mortals in a setting where "Mortal = not that great".
Sauron isn't an ominpotent god of war, however his body doesn't follow mortal rules however.

I'm not sure why he seems to expect me to read or refute the points of someone who's posts I can't read. I really only notice that kind of thing in your quotes, GoC
Because simple sitting on the side lines saying "you'll lose" seems quite silly to me. Join the debate or just read

now Sucrose, you seem to be a reasonable bloke, so tell me, where can i find a reliable source of naurto information that doesn't require me watch the show? I need sources if i'm going to argue this

At as reiterated by other members here, you sir LL, do not understand the nature of a kyuubi. Looking at one we know from it, we can believe it is Kishimoto's version of the "Nine-taled fox" found in Japanese Mythology. If this is the case, it is not only a super-powered monster, but it is also on a divine lvl and can be compared to a god.
Care to enlighten us with source?

Rutee: Listen to Oslecamo. The ring is a powerful tool and actualy didn't make him any weaker. It was only a series of lucky accidents that allowed it to be destroyed.
I also have a theory he created the ring to prevent his power being used up. Otherwise he may have been unable to reform after being killed a few times and would become like he is at the end of LotR

Its other use was to preserve his power, because his boss used so much power he depleted himself

You would be a terrible evil overlord. Unless you're on the Discworld, anyway.. if under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES your tools can instantly ruin you, the tool is a loaded gun pointed at your heart. Dramatic Effect necessitates that these potentially ENORMOUS weaknesses WILL be used against you. PEriod, end of discussion. That is why, from a meta perspective, the Ring was a fragging stupid idea. From an In-character one, it makes /perfect/ sense
not really, as Sauron knew that nobody could willingly destroy the ring, Mt. Doom was a power center of his, and the Ring helped more than it hurt. Also when he first made the ring, you needed to kill him first before it mattered. So it was basically a second life, should he die once (as he did) he gets a second chance.

I'd say more, but i need to watch house. cheers
from
EE

Sucrose

2008-02-08, 12:23 AM

now Sucrose, you seem to be a reasonable bloke, so tell me, where can i find a reliable source of naurto information that doesn't require me watch the show? I need sources if i'm going to argue this

Well, thank you, EE. Given that I'm arguing what passes for the opposing side, that's quite a compliment. I'm afraid that I'm not really that much of a Naruto fan, so I can't really help you out there. The best advice I've got is to look up a Naruto wiki.

As for the whole "Kyuubi has more sheer power than Sauron" thing, it has to do with what their described capabilities are. Sauron is described as an exceptionally able combatant, a potent mage, and a brilliant mastermind, along with the perks of being functionally devine.

This is impressive, but in a straight-up fight, that doesn't contend with what the demon fox is supposedly capable of, as it's described as being able to modify the geography on a whim. It also is, truly, a demon, and the most potent malevolent force in the world of Naruto, so it has much the same spiritual significance as Sauron.

As for taking out an army, that is explicitly what it was doing, destroying the entire elite force of Konohagakure until the Fourth Hokage, the greatest mage-knight in a world of overpowered mage-knights, used his own life force to seal it within a child. Thus, it took both an insane amount of magical force, and what amounts to blood magic to seal the fox away. The fox is personified natural disaster.

Edit: And also, your argument for why the One Ring isn't stupid, but is indeed quite brilliant, are spot on. However, the post you reference was using meta-logic, which is the assumption that your universe runs on plot. In meta terms, if you have a weakness, it will be exploited. Full stop.

If you are the villain, you WILL die by it; if you are the hero, you WILL be hindered by it at some point in the plot. As such, as the villain, in meta terms, creating ANY hole in your defenses, even a micrometer-thick one that lets you shoot frickin' laser beams out your eyes, it tantamount to suicide. That is why, in meta terms, making the One Ring is a bad move.

Rutee

2008-02-08, 12:32 AM

While I understand you're speaking a little poetically, just so we're clear, the Kyuubi can only really destroy crap. It's just it can do so to a very wide portion of the geography. I don't think it's clever enough to use this to create a tactical advantage, if such an opportunity would present itself.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-02-08, 01:44 AM

Well, thank you, EE. Given that I'm arguing what passes for the opposing side, that's quite a compliment. I'm afraid that I'm not really that much of a Naruto fan, so I can't really help you out there. The best advice I've got is to look up a Naruto wiki.

As for the whole "Kyuubi has more sheer power than Sauron" thing, it has to do with what their described capabilities are. Sauron is described as an exceptionally able combatant, a potent mage, and a brilliant mastermind, along with the perks of being functionally devine.

This is impressive, but in a straight-up fight, that doesn't contend with what the demon fox is supposedly capable of, as it's described as being able to modify the geography on a whim. It also is, truly, a demon, and the most potent malevolent force in the world of Naruto, so it has much the same spiritual significance as Sauron.

As for taking out an army, that is explicitly what it was doing, destroying the entire elite force of Konohagakure until the Fourth Hokage, the greatest mage-knight in a world of overpowered mage-knights, used his own life force to seal it within a child. Thus, it took both an insane amount of magical force, and what amounts to blood magic to seal the fox away. The fox is personified natural disaster.

Huh. This thread seems a lot more...tolerable then it did before now that it seems at least that its looking like an actual discussion.

I stand by the opinion that Kyuubi has more raw destructive potential then Sauron has. A swipe of one of it's tails caused earthquakes and tsunamis and, like Sucrose said, it took the elite and most powerful of a very high powered setting to to seal it away in a child and only then with extremely powerful jutsu. When it was sealed away in Naruto and he had only gone four-tails he was spitting out balls of chakra that penetrated one of the most potent defenses in the series (not sure if Gaara's are more powerful then the Triple Rashemon Gates) and still had enough bite to them to be danger to another super-ninja.

In all honesty I don't know the source material for LotR very well at all. All I know comes from Wikipedia and brief forays into my actual LotR book, but nothing I read suggested that Sauron is capable of replicating that same kind of destruction. You may know differently (and I don't mean deflecting it) but I don't think Sauron can do those kinds of things. However the Kyuubi has been controlled before though it took the only 'true' immortal of Narutoverse to do it and even then he needed 'WTFPWNZ' kind of power in order to do it. Could Sauron? Maybe...Dunno...His control seems much more gradual then the abrupt 'Your mind is my play thing now' control and genjutsu of the Sharingan. Probably wouldn't come into play. The burning touch honestly doesn't seem like it'd work. Fire has consistently been all but useless against Naruto when he isn't going Kyuubi and even less so when he is. Plus like someone mentioned above, whenever Naruto does anything while in a Kyuubi transformation it always has fire under-tones to it.

Fear is difficult to gauge. Good may be effective against in LotR but the amount of killing intent someone can put out seems to be the most effective counter-measure in Naruto (besides blatant bravery and the releasing genjutsu techniques) and the Kyuubi puts that out in bucket-loads. It has never once showed fear of anything whither death, being imprisoned, or being confronted with potential enslavement by the Sharingan again. I'd almost say the Kyuubi isn't even capable of fear.

...I could give more detail if I knew more specifically what EE wanted to know. x.x

Elrond

2008-02-08, 02:04 AM

Saron is like the best fighter/necromancer in exsitance

My goody two shoes brother may have fought a war against Saron and won but Saron IS the biggest badest evil character in the universe and could easily beat a petty ninja like naruto :xykon:

P.S if any one disagress with me i will personely eat there soul :furious:

Rutee

2008-02-08, 02:15 AM

Is he powerful enough to stand up to the manliest of men? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw) I think not.

...Yes, I've been waiting for an excuse to use that link.

plainsfox

2008-02-08, 02:23 AM

Heh. I thought you were talking about Gai for a second there, Rutee. I wonder how Lee or Gai would do against say a Baalrog. That would be fun to see, I think.

Rutee

2008-02-08, 02:27 AM

You know, that would have been so much more relevant to the conversation, I wish I'd done it. But Captain Falcon *was* proven to be manly.. (http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=41283471)

Cubey

2008-02-08, 02:33 AM

Tengu

2008-02-08, 03:43 AM

Heh. I thought you were talking about Gai for a second there, Rutee. I wonder how Lee or Gai would do against say a Baalrog. That would be fun to see, I think.

Rock Lee would probably lose, which is a pity because he always loses his fights, despite trying so hard and being one of the most likable characters in Naruto - by the way, here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenAesop) is an interesting read about why Naruto's message is hypocritical (long file, do a search for "naruto" in it).

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-08, 05:31 AM

Your an anti Sauron fanboy? The logic doesn't work

I think the point he's trying to make is he's anti Sauron-fanboys (I.E. he doesn't like Sauron Fanboys, people who are fanboys of Sauron, so basically he's anti-you, however he was probably kidding around)

Poison_Fish

2008-02-08, 06:02 AM

Is he powerful enough to stand up to the manliest of men? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw) I think not.

...Yes, I've been waiting for an excuse to use that link.

I think the sheer manly is starting to overpower this thread. Dare we summon Kamina!?

Artemician

2008-02-08, 06:39 AM

You talk about manliness without mentioning the Strong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9spxCiK4KmQ) Arm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5QqavC57OE) Alchemist? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdfCv-1CKXc)

Shame on you. Shame.

Oslecamo

2008-02-08, 07:47 AM

Just want to point out one more thing:

Sauron needed to create the one ring. If he hadn't done so, he would have no chance to fight the power of all the other rings now forged. And before you say Sauron helped creating the other rings, remember that the 3 elven rings were created purely by the elfs, and Sauron never managed to even get near them.

It was a necessity. Whitout the one ring, he would never be able to get back on power. It may had been his downfall, but whitout it, he would have never managed to become that ubervillain we all know and love/hate.

Now please stop posting links about the manliest of mens. We all know it's the more efeminated male anime characters that get all the girls, not the more manly.

Tengu

2008-02-08, 08:05 AM

Ossian

2008-02-08, 09:33 AM

As much as I love Sauron as a badass villain and a much classier one than all the others combined, I must admit that after doing my homework I have to give this to the Kyubi, hands down.

I watched some 45 minutes of youtube Naruto stuff (featuring THIS (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=5EdtCD2k9uU), for example). That fox, with half of her tails spread, and set in a human teenage Avatar works like a nuke orbital bombing. Go figure what happens when 9 tails are spread and it gets the original unconstrained size of the Demon Fox. I see a lot like the Answer to the other thread "What can destroy the WH40K universe".

There isn't much to argue, I fear.

a) Sauron instakills Naruto, severes his head from his torso and vaporized both in very distant locations. Now, this isn't happen that often. Naruto can be a brat and a shonen hype kid, but he jumps 50 foot without breaking a sweat. In a pit fight it's a bit tough to just insta kill this guy without slowly injuring him (which triggers the Kyubi)

b) The Kiyubi surfaces. Sauron gets vaporized, Mordo gets vaporized, Gondor and the Khand until Rhovanion get vaporized, The Army of Valinor with the Valar assembled meets the Kiyubi in Lindon. Half of them dies. The kiyubi dies too. Life ends on Middle Earth. Start Over from scratch and awaken some more elves at Cuivienen (if it didn't evaporate, that is)

c) The two universes collide and auto annihilate out of high incompatibility....

The demon fox did not seem particularly immune to any mind control effect. It was just a berserking natural disaster that wanderend mindlessly altering the landscape for good by just stomping it to dust. There isn't much to mind-control in that Capital-Sized skull....

Obrysii

2008-02-08, 09:47 AM

c) The two universes collide and auto annihilate out of high incompatibility....

I rather favor this, all things considered.

The demon fox did not seem particularly immune to any mind control effect. It was just a berserking natural disaster that wanderend mindlessly altering the landscape for good by just stomping it to dust. There isn't much to mind-control in that Capital-Sized skull....

This is a spoiler, but I doubt anyone cares: the Kyuubi can, in fact, be controlled - but not through mind control. A special technique of one of the most powerful bloodline limits (kekkei genkai, genetic powers), the Sharingan, can "tame" the Kyuubi. In fact, its appearance in Konoha was not random. It was summoned there to destroy the village for unknown reasons.

So yes, it can be controlled through one, and only one technique .... but it has shown no strength or weakness towards mind control.

WalkingTarget

2008-02-08, 11:18 AM

Well, I've been keeping out of this one since I haven't watched any Naruto (other Anime occasionally, but not that one). Actually, I'm still staying out of the debate as I don't have any evidence to provide towards an actual conclusion. Once again, just clarifying points that others have brought up or asked for actual evidence for a claim. Anyway, to business...

Sauron needed to create the one ring. If he hadn't done so, he would have no chance to fight the power of all the other rings now forged. And before you say Sauron helped creating the other rings, remember that the 3 elven rings were created purely by the elfs, and Sauron never managed to even get near them.

The 3 were made by Celebrimbor alone, but the art of their making was learned from Sauron. The mechanism with which the Rings function is corrupt on an intrinsic level. The 3 aren't inherently bad due to lack of Sauron's involvement in their forging, but the whole point of teaching the Elves to make them in the first place was so that he could control them with the One. There's no reason for him to teach them anything at all if he wasn't going to make it (i.e. the Ring wasn't a response to the other rings, rather the other rings were part of a plot that makes use of the One that he had planned to make all along).

As for Sauron knowing about the effects on him if the Ring was destroyed...
The wording I can find quickly in the Letters (#131) is that "There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he neither contemplated or feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made - and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger."

Other letters mention the impossibility for any to cast it into the fire, so I take the "So he thought" statement near the end to refer to Bilbo and Sam being able to give it up voluntarily (your reading may differ). The same line implies that the danger occurred to him in an academic sense, but he quickly came to the conclusion that the obstacles that were in place to prevent it were suitably impossible to overcome that he could safely ignore it ("neither contemplate or fear"). I'd say that the other weakness was the one that he actually feared personally: that somebody with the ability to do so (Tolkien goes on to mention that Gandalf would have the best chance there, possibly Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan, but specifically not a "mortal") could claim the Ring effectively. If the Ring is bent to another's will, then it's the same for Sauron as if it had been destroyed; he would have no chance to reclaim it. This just sets up a new Dark Lord though, so "good" still hasn't triumphed.

On the subject of Sauron fearing the Numenoreans, from letter #211: "Ar-Pharazon, as is told in the 'Downfall' or Akallabeth, conquered a[nd] terrified Sauron's subjects, not Sauron. Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning*: he got free transport to Numenor!...

*Note the expression III p. 364 [2nd edition p. 365] 'taken as prisoner'."

Footnote (referring to the Appendices in RotK, I believe) and emphasis are his. As this was the man's own opinion of the matter, I'll take his word for it.

Sucrose

2008-02-08, 11:18 AM

I rather favor this, all things considered.

It does make the most sense.

Rutee

2008-02-08, 01:37 PM

Am I the only one who didn't read the OP until now? 'cause, the thought never occurs to me that someone sets these up for the sole purpose of watching their favorite setting pwn, for some optimistic reason or other..

Kind of ironic that it's losing, but that's what happens when you auto assume that your favorite setting is higher powerred then a shounen anime.

plainsfox

2008-02-08, 02:31 PM

The Will of Fire! BELIEVE IT!

Actually, I got the sneaky feeling that at some point it wound up as a Kyuubi vs. Sauron fight. What has Sauron got that compares?

Rutee

2008-02-08, 02:37 PM

An Army? Except most of its red shirts anyway..

Now please stop posting links about the manliest of mens. We all know it's the more efeminated male anime characters that get all the girls, not the more manly.
It's totally true. I like poking fun at the concept of manly men though. Their epitome is Dan Hibiki :smallbiggrin:

plainsfox

2008-02-08, 02:47 PM

And I don't think that Sauron is the type to use the Dead Demon Sealing Jutsu...even if he knew of it.

Ominous

2008-02-08, 03:06 PM

I'm going to go with Naruto winning this one. When he has four tails he can level three massive (200-300 ft. tall) structures made of solid steel-like (maybe platinum or some other substance, they aren't detailed) substance with one attack. Secondly, no one (including Orochimaru, one of the strongest shinobi in the setting) has yet been able to penetrate the chakra armor Naruto has with four tails. Now, that's just with four tails released. I'm guessing that at eight tails it reaches DBZ level cheese.

To the people supporting naruto, Naruto cannot release nine tails, because, if he does, the Kyuubi will be free and Naurot will die. So technically, Sauron would be victorious as he managed to kill Naruto before he himself would die.

Sucrose

2008-02-08, 03:11 PM

I'm going to go with Naruto winning this one. When he has four tails he can level three massive (200-300 ft. tall) structures made of solid steel-like (maybe platinum or some other substance, they aren't detailed) substance with one attack. Secondly, no one (including Orochimaru, one of the strongest shinobi in the setting) can penetrate the chakra armor Naruto has with four tails. Now, that's just with four tails released. I'm guessing that at eight tails it reaches DBZ level cheese.

To the people supporting naruto, Naruto cannot release nine tails, because, if he does, the Kyuubi will be feee and Naurot will die. So technically, Sauron would be victorious as he managed to kill Naruto before he himself would die.
Duly noted. However, as you say, he still gets stupid amounts of power from just four tails released, and can go to eight without dying, so it doesn't matter too much.

Ominous

2008-02-08, 03:19 PM

I have to make a correction. One person, so far, has penetrated the chakra armor of four tails Naruto, but it's a technique that requires a certain genetic background (You have to be a clone of the first Hokage).

Rutee

2008-02-08, 03:23 PM

Well, this is only cementing my point that Sauron couldn't even beat Naruto in a straight fight. However, I don't think this will help Naruto if Sauron were to try beating him with treachery.

Sucrose

2008-02-08, 03:26 PM

Well, this is only cementing my point that Sauron couldn't even beat Naruto in a straight fight. However, I don't think this will help Naruto if Sauron were to try beating him with treachery.

Again, true. I doubt that anyone would argue that the knucklehead ninja could see his way through the plans within plans of Sauron. The ONLY situation that allows Naruto to win is a straight fight.

Rutee

2008-02-08, 03:32 PM

Again, true. I doubt that anyone would argue that the knucklehead ninja could see his way through the plans within plans of Sauron. The ONLY situation that allows Naruto to win is a straight fight.

I dunno. You have to consider that Sauron's plans require observation, time, and a proper gauging of Naruto's abilities. The last is obscenely difficult within Middle Earth; How could you possibly test the upper limits of his capabilities when the vast majority of that which you have at your disposal is well below even his lower bound? Further, most of the tools to measure Naruto with means turning it into a non-duel.

Further, if Sauron displayed even one hint of the arrogance his supporters did in utterly dismissing something that has more power then any individual being within his setting, he'd be screwing his chances further. He's a great manipulator, definitely, but in a one on one duel, this is not the most useful attribute one can have.

Sucrose

2008-02-08, 03:37 PM

I dunno. You have to consider that Sauron's plans require observation, time, and a proper gauging of Naruto's abilities. The last is obscenely difficult within Middle Earth; How could you possibly test the upper limits of his capabilities when the vast majority of that which you have at your disposal is well below even his lower bound? Further, most of the tools to measure Naruto with means turning it into a non-duel.

Further, if Sauron displayed even one hint of the arrogance his supporters did in utterly dismissing something that has more power then any individual being within his setting, he'd be screwing his chances further. He's a great manipulator, definitely, but in a one on one duel, this is not the most useful attribute one can have.
Yeah, but isn't a duel a straight fight, typically? I was just saying that, if it comes to physical confrontation, Sauron's already lost. I was imagining something of a nonlinear scenario, where they're opposing each other, but don't know where the other is.

I figure that Sauron could quickly cobble together some sort of spy network, find out where Naruto is, and bribe or corrupt some innkeeper to poison Naruto's meal or something.

Neither side has anything resembling aptitude at the other's strengths. Well, I wouldn't say THAT; in objective terms, Sauron has enormous physical ability. It's only in relative terms that Sauron is lacking. Still, yeah, can't really make it a fair fight.

Rutee

2008-02-08, 03:41 PM

Yeah, but isn't a duel a straight fight, typically? I was just saying that, if it comes to physical confrontation, Sauron's already lost. I was imagining something of a nonlinear scenario, where they're opposing each other, but don't know where the other is.

I figure that Sauron could quickly cobble together some sort of spy network, find out where Naruto is, and bribe or corrupt some innkeeper to poison Naruto's meal or something.

This is where the genre-differences start to come into play, I guess. You CAN NOT make this a fair fight. If you say it's a straight pit fight, you play into Naruto's strengths. If you say that SAuron gets time to prepare, or use of his army, or whatnot, you play into Sauron's strengths. That's probably the best indicator that this is a bad versus thread; Neither side has anything resembling aptitude at the other's strengths. It's like if I matched a mecha pilot vs. a martial artist. If the fight's without technology, the martial artist wins*, and if it's in mecha, the mecha pilot wins.** There's too little common ground for things to be fair. Which I guess is what everyone has been sayign all along, without explaining the relevance, I suppose..

* Unless the Mecha pilot is Zengar Zomvolt
** Unless the martial artist is anyone from G Gundam.

Rowanomicon

2008-02-08, 03:52 PM

Rutee, I totally agree.
Both have good fighting skills and better than normal human strength, speed, etc, but that's where it ends. They are vastly different characters from vastly different works.

Not to mention that, but the whole thing hinges on one huge if that totally decides it. If the fox thing comes out Sauron's toast no questions (from what people are saying), but if not the fight is similarly one sides in Sauron's favour.

I think that not only is this not a very good Vs thread, but Naruto is not a very good Vs thread combatant because of that one huge if that might make his power level go up incredible drastically. Therefore I suggest that if anyone's planning on using him they make it clear that it's either Naruto without this fox thing or the fox thing without Naruto.

Rutee

2008-02-08, 03:56 PM

Not to mention that, but the whole thing hinges on one huge if that totally decides it. If the fox thing comes out Sauron's toast no questions (from what people are saying), but if not the fight is similarly one sides in Sauron's favour.
Not true. Naruto can unleash the 9 Tailed Fox at fewer tails and still have geography-alterring raw power. It may be exponential power growth, but it is not a comparison of 0 and 60. And really, even without directly using the 9-Tailed Fox, I don't see a reason to believe Sauron is a one-sided match for Naruto. His physical feats appear to easily match those of the people who beat Sauron the first time.

Lord_Asmodeus

2008-02-08, 04:12 PM

Yea Naruto might not be the most able ninja on his own and he isn't the brightest by far (I don't go so far as to call him blatantly "stupid" but he is an idiot most of the time, with logic and intelligence showing through on and off) but he is a fairly capable ninja in his own right, and at the very least he could make the fight last for some time, he has fought people more powerful than him before (though to be fair he did have power of the plot, but I like to think they've explained his not dying horribly well enough to say he has a fair amount of skill)

GoC

2008-02-08, 04:16 PM

Your an anti Sauron fanboy? The logic doesn't work
I meant anti-"Sauron fanboy". But I'm more accurately anti Sauron-abuse.

The silmarillion only brushes upon the the third age, LOTRS are more detailed
Then once again I'll ask for a chapter/page #. I've also got LotR now.

slow down, if you going to use a book, use it right. The Valar sent a fleet of magical clouds shaped like eagles that shot divine lighting, very different from lighting shooting eagles. Also Sauron stands on top of a bloody temple of Morgoth and deflects them, that is also quite different
It says he "challenged" the lightning and survived. This probably means that only one hit.

for the other dudes? Glordindal is said to have stood before the dark lord in Many Meetings, Elrond and Ciron are said to have fought along side the Lords of Elves and men against Sauron in the Council of Elrond.
That doesn't mean that they were personaly fighting him in the last few hours of his life. In fact it could mean that their armies fought against his armies. When people say Howard fought William the conquerer they don't mean that they were personaly in the field fighting eachother.

Um dude, that doesn't say he fears for his life, that means he fears them showing up, and considering they are all badass and have a freaking huge advanced army and he is already running war then that is a pretty good fear
2. Um, when was this? Your talking about when the last king of Numenor shows up and sauron "surrender" to him (later taking over the country in three years) right? He had an army then, he was still in mordor
No it's after they first showed up. Note it says "came back".
I think it means he feared for his life. Or did his eventual "death" come as a surprise to him?

3. Can the fox even do that? see below
It can destroy a mountain so I'd say that yes, a medieval army would be destroyed by it.

1. Alright, the world biggest Werewolf and Vampire are defeated right? So Sauron turns into an even bigger WereWolf and later Vampire. So he can turn into freaking big stuff, and assume some of their powers.
So? It doesn't mention how big the werewolf was does it.

And superman, what?
I'm serously losing my patience here. It's in english! You CAN read!

2. The demon is evil. Sauron can dominate evil (see quote below). However for an Arena match that isn't very useful, fear is however
3. Ever member of that army had resistance. The humans were to the man people who survived under his tyranny in Numenor and had been exposed to his corruption. The elves are, well elves, they already knew about him. And they are all good, something Sauron is not good against
2. Yep he dragged some orcs and other feeble but evil things to mordor. Your point?
3. So you admit that you lied when you said only six people managed to overcome his fear?

Ah, that guy. I always forget his name. Why did he lose to Huan? Well, considering you have the book, and this has been covered a dozen times i'd think you'd catch on
Huan is protected by a prophecy. In the world of Tolkien, if you don't forfill the exact desires of the prophecy, your screwed, even if your freaking Morgoth. It is impossible to over come a prophecy (though if you have a prophecy protecting you, you will die no matter what). Sauron tried to bypass the prophecy by turning into the greatest wolf in the world, but that wasn't enough as he wasn't truly that. So he literally couldn't win, it is impossible according to the rules of Tolkien. He attempted to explote a loophole and it back fired
That is... completely unrelated to my point.

Super humans and elves with powers (just not flashy Charka ones). Remember people, brains. Brains make a far larger difference then raw power
I disagree. As long as you're of average intelligence then even if your opponent is a thousand times smarter you'll win if you're 10 times stronger, faster and more resilient.
Super humans? They were humans. Period. The elves powers weren't very useful in the fight were they?

Rowanomicon: I agree completely with your last post. Without the fox Sauron and Narutu are close to even in terms of physical power*skills (using the little I know of Narutu) and with Sauron's better tactics he will prevail.

Rowanomicon

2008-02-08, 04:36 PM

Not true. Naruto can unleash the 9 Tailed Fox at fewer tails and still have geography-alterring raw power. It may be exponential power growth, but it is not a comparison of 0 and 60. And really, even without directly using the 9-Tailed Fox, I don't see a reason to believe Sauron is a one-sided match for Naruto. His physical feats appear to easily match those of the people who beat Sauron the first time.

Um... I was comparing Naruto (the kid) and the Fox. I'm pretty sure that's a massively huge power difference right there.

I'm not even going to bother arguing with you about Naruto without the Fox Vs Sauron because, well, I think you know why.

GoC, I don't see who the word "challenged" implies any number, one or otherwise.

he dragged some orcs and other feeble but evil things to mordor
OK, so now you're just deliberately trying to make Sauron seem weaker than he is with your wording, but I'll respond anyway.
Orcs are not the only servants of Sauron. You have the source material now. That not only entitles you to ask for page numbers, but also means that you should bother to read it before analyzing it.
Sauron's servant, for the most part, serve him heart and soul (literally).

You asked why Sauron didn't use the burn touch on Huan, didn't you? The reason he didn't is because he knew that Huan was not going to be killed by a burning touch, but by a wolf.

They were not "humans. Period." They were, in fact, of Numenorian decent and therefore better than normal humans right off the bat. Elendil was 8 feet freaking tall! He also had a greater god (Valar) in his bloodline! That combined with the fact that his line, being godly and royal, is just generally awesome and he himself had had a super long lifetime (they live what, three times as long as normal humans?) to hone his skills and abilities. Aragorn shows superhuman endurance when chasing the Uruks and Elendil was just that much better. Oh yeah, and the magical equipment they had. He was most certainly not Joe Blow.

Once again, you not only have the right to ask for citation, but also the responsibility to do a little bit of your own research on the subject.