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Xyk
2008-02-05, 10:50 PM
This is based entirely off of Death Note (an anime) in which the person in question has found a supernatural means of killing and kills criminals in a systematic and careful way. His motive is to make a new world in which crime does not exist.

I am really curious. Is it evil because of the vast amount of people he's killed, good because of the fact that they all were criminals and for ethical crimes (like murder)?. Lawful because of the systematic way he does it, or chaotic because he opposes the law?

I really can't tell and am tempted to label him true neutral.

What are your thoughts?

Kojiro Kakita
2008-02-05, 10:53 PM
I think we discussed this already but I can't find the original topic. Here is what I remember.

Starts LN
then LE
finally CE

Icewalker
2008-02-05, 10:59 PM
Well...in general I think claims of changing alignments are nonsense, and it is personality that creates action not the action itself.

However for Death Note, he does start getting more and more extreme as it goes on...

I think Kohiro has it pretty accurately. Lawful Neutral, shifting into Evil, then he goes off the end and ends up Chaotic as well.

Jack Zander
2008-02-05, 11:04 PM
This is why alignment is retarded.

A good ends by an evil means is a very Lawful Neutral trait (very st. Cuthbert). His alignment would only change from there if his attitude began to change. If he started killing out of hatred for their crimes rather than because they deserved it, he would shift evil. If he became more of a vigilante and actually starting opposing the government, he'd become more chaotic. Remember though, even paladins can be vigilantes in the right circumstances.

UglyPanda
2008-02-05, 11:29 PM
Jack dude, did you read the series? He starts killing purely out of self-preservation early on in the series. Later on, he begins killing off his own minions. His ultimate goal is to become the iron-fisted ruler of the world. He even considers killing off his own family members in order to further his plans (Fully supportive and kind people, none of his immediate family are evil in any possible way.) and refrains only because he knows he would be caught.

The creator of the series himself had stated that Light is clearly evil in the end.

EvilElitest
2008-02-05, 11:31 PM
I think i started a thread on this once

Light is LE from teh get go, he is using an ends justifies teh means ideal and has a god complex. Still a cool character however
from
EE

Charles Phipps
2008-02-05, 11:43 PM
Well...in general I think claims of changing alignments are nonsense, and it is personality that creates action not the action itself

Yes, but personalities change under given circumstances.

Overall, I think Light Yagami was LN then LE after the first day.


Cause seriously, Light kills a cop in like the fourth episode.

Frankly, I think the series would have been better had Light stuck to criminals.

triforcel
2008-02-05, 11:46 PM
Well I haven't seen/read the entire series. I stopped after L died. After that I lost interest in it. But from what I remember.

Light begins as evil once he starts using the Death Note. While he does focus his murders on criminals he uses many of them as experiments to test the full range of his new found power. I also don't recall him showing any remorse for any of the murders he commits. All these are clear indications of Evil.

That being said, the entire part of the series I read he was very deliberate in every action he made. Each murder served him in some way. Even when he was caught off guard he would try to consider the ramifications of any action before proceeding. This clearly puts him as a Lawful person.

So from what I've read of the series, Light is Lawful Evil.

Jack Zander
2008-02-05, 11:47 PM
Jack dude, did you read the series? He starts killing purely out of self-preservation early on in the series. Later on, he begins killing off his own minions. His ultimate goal is to become the iron-fisted ruler of the world. He even considers killing off his own family members in order to further his plans (Fully supportive and kind people, none of his immediate family are evil in any possible way.) and refrains only because he knows he would be caught.

The creator of the series himself had stated that Light is clearly evil in the end.

Nope, never heard of the series. I just gave my opinion based on the context given. This is an example where his alignment would change drastically as my example stated.

Xyk
2008-02-05, 11:48 PM
I dont remember the other thread. I think after reading these posts I'm leaning towards LE as well. He is based around self-preservation 2nd. His ultimate goal was the new world however. I say that because if he valued self-preservation first he would give up the note forever. I still am not convinced of anything.

SadisticFishing
2008-02-06, 12:15 AM
Reminds me of Rorschach, who was a big question for me a while ago.

Stop trying to label him "chaotic evil", and try for "chaotic" "evil".

I'd actually guess he was CG, as long as he keeps everything he does in check. Definately not exalted, but he is bringing good to the world by killing child rapists and murderers, and he disregards all laws about vigilantism. As soon as he starts killing people who don't "deserve it" from a strictly alignment point of view, he drops to evil.

Rorshach, I still have no idea.

Raolin_Fenix
2008-02-06, 02:22 AM
In the first episode, I believe he's actually Lawful Good, but already beginning to fall from it, toward lawful neutrality, with his cynicism. After his first two uses of the Death Note, he suffers his Morality Crisis, which ends immediately with him turning him Lawful Evil in his flashback during his conversation with Ryuk.

I cite the way he laughs as he condemns people -- even if they're criminals -- to death, from the very first episode, as evidence for his pure evil. He's evil, evil, evil, no two ways about it, and criminally insane to boot.

If that's not enough, he specifies his eventual goal in the first episode, too. He wants to kill everyone who commits a crime. After the real nasty criminals (like murderers and rapists) are all dead, he wants to start pruning away those who commit lesser crimes, like petty pickpocketing. After that, he wants to kill anyone who even "causes problems for people," albeit through quieter means like disease. And then he wants to be the god of his new world.

When people are forced to a specific moral code on pain of death, and at the same time forced into worship of one man, I think that's pretty much the textbook definition of tyranny. And tyranny is pretty much the textbook definition of lawful evil.

Remember, mercy and reform are factors in both goodness and neutral justice. Killing for the first offense of a petty crime is not good, and it is not neutral. It doesn't even fall under the "eye for an eye" sort of justice, because he'll kill you for something way lesser in magnitude than murder.

That being said, Death Note is my favorite anime, though I haven't read the manga. Light is, IMHO possibly the best antagonist ever conceived. He actually managed to somehow top out Hannibal freaking Lecter on my list of awesome villains.

SoD
2008-02-06, 03:02 AM
Personally, I would say...LE, but beleives himself to be LN, maybe. Maybe even beleives himself to be NG???

If we're talking about changing alignments, I'd probably say he starts out LG/NG, but almost instantly changes to LN-LE-CE.

He's worked with the police force, he (initially) kills for a good reason (in his opinion, once he starts killing knowingly he's definatly no longer good, LN by then). His first kill of an innocent (Penbar, wasn't it? FBI man?) throws him into the LE bin, out of which he crawls out of, only to fall off, into the CE waste paper basket.

And, from memory (although I'm no expert), he doesn't kill for 'petty crime'. He goes for the big ones, the murderers and stuff like that.

Behold_the_Void
2008-02-06, 03:31 AM
The Death Note brings about a fairly significant change to Light. I'd say he's slipped to Lawful Evil by the time he meets Ryuk. While he's not as maniacal in the manga, by the time Ryuk reveals himself Light has already decided that he will kill all of the major criminals with heart attacks and, while the world was focused on them, would start killing lesser criminals with accidents. Even before Raye Penbar (or even Lind L. Tailor, who is the first "non-criminal" target Light kills), Light has already decided he's going to purge the world of anybody he deems "bad." Death, to Light, is an acceptable punishment for any crime.

By the end, his sanity has clearly left him and he's hit the Chaotic Evil point, where he's willing to eliminate anybody who stands against him.

Aquillion
2008-02-06, 03:52 AM
I would say that Light is fairly clearly Lawful Evil by the time he's used his Death Note more than a few times. The most clear indication of this is when he tries to kill L with it without a pause -- notice what sets him off.

He doesn't care about L during the whole speech, and just laughs it off... until L calls him evil, at which point he instantly attempts to murder him via Death Note. There's no mitigating factors here; all he knows is that L is a brilliant detective who has solved many crimes in the past. He has just indicated that he does not feel threatened by L at all (and, at that point in the story, he has no reason to be), so it is impossible to justify it as self-defense.

Trying to kill L at that point is by any standard an extremely evil act, and there's nothing to indicate that it's any sort of outlier. Light views himself as superior to everyone else, and will murder anyone who opposes or disagrees with that, or anyone who stands between him and the absolute power he thinks he deserves. I don't think that this makes him chaotic (he still has "rules" in that he won't kill innocent, non-criminal people who don't get in his way, even when it could advance his cause... and his ultimate goal and outlook are certainly lawful and informed by a lawful view), but I also don't think it's something that slowly appeared in him later on... even in that very first confrontation with L, Light makes it totally clear that he will kill anyone who crosses him or gets in his way without compunction.

Simply appending "for the greater good" to something does not, in fact, automatically make you good. Regardless of what he thinks he wants, or what rationalizations he gives, it is extremely clear that his motivations are selfish... the fact that he is obsessed with creating a 'perfect' world in an orderly fashion only means that he is lawful evil, most of the time.

Light obviously believes himself to be LG, but only insofar as his morality comes down to "I am better than everyone else, therefore it is only right that I should decide what is right and wrong." He doesn't simply think that he's a good person; he think that he is Good itself, that good is whatever he decides it is.

A more interesting character alignment-wise is Ryuk; I could see arguments all over the place for him.

1. Lawful or chaotic? I would hold that he's extremely chaotic; yes, although he sets personal 'rules' and refuses to help anyone or violate them, he only does this because it amuses him (and he cheerfully helps Light in exchange for apples at one point -- given what a minor reward it is, violating something he presented as a major principal just a day earlier is pretty chaotic.) But more than that, Ryuk's only motivation throughout the entire series seems to be his own amusement. He doesn't really care about death or rules or anything like that; he just does whatever he thinks will make things more entertaining. That's chaotic, in my book.

2. Evil or neutral? We can probably rule good right out. On one hand, of course, he causes massive amounts of death for his own amusement... but on the other hand, I have trouble seeing that as being evil, in a Shinigami. This is hard to articulate... it seems less like he's malevolently evil or even carelessly evil, and more that that's just the sort of creature he is; he's so disconnected from humanity that death doesn't really mean anything to him (and why should it? He's a Shinigami.) Overall, his disconnection strikes me more as neutral than evil...

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-06, 05:02 AM
I'd say Ryuk is either Neutral Evil, or Chaotic Evil.

He's definitely from the trickster archetype. The whole point is to amuse him and he doesn't really care what the results are. His actions aren't wrapped up self righteous delusions. He knows what he is, and he accepts that.

And he's *bored*.

He does have some principles, which is why I think it might be Neutral Evil.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-06, 10:42 AM
Hmm... I'll take the Vash the Stampede view of "killing people, even in self defense or as an accident is wrong," and "intentionally killing people outside of self defense is absolutely evil." So yeah, that's in opposition to capital punishment as well, but it makes sense and from that perspective it's pretty clear that using a Death Note at all in any capacity is the path to evil bad wrongness, if you aren't already there. I mean, not to paraphrase LotR but dealing death in the name of judgement is unwise, because no matter how smart you are you can't completely anticipate everyone's future.

So IMO, Light starts off Evil and ends Evil, only much more so. I think I'll stay out of the Law/Chaos side of the debate because everyone seems to have different definitions of what defines Law and Chaos.

kamikasei
2008-02-06, 10:50 AM
I would say he's pretty solidly Lawful Evil for most of the run of the show, maybe sliding towards Chaotic as he becomes more petty and engaged in what he views as a contest he's trying to win with L and the others. This could easily be classes as Lawful Evil with immaturity thrown in, though.

I don't think he's Lawful Good to start with. Just because he's a model student, etc. doesn't make him Good; it just means he hasn't displayed his Evil side. Besides, he first gets the Note when he's 17; arguably he needn't be considered to have a set alignment until he's actually operating in the adult sphere, which in this case, gosh! happens to coincide with when he starts murdering people for his grand scheme.

Aquillion
2008-02-06, 11:04 AM
I don't think he's Lawful Good to start with. Just because he's a model student, etc. doesn't make him Good; it just means he hasn't displayed his Evil side. Besides, he first gets the Note when he's 17; arguably he needn't be considered to have a set alignment until he's actually operating in the adult sphere, which in this case, gosh! happens to coincide with when he starts murdering people for his grand scheme.On the other hand, there's the whole interlude where he gives up his memory... he shows no signs of being evil during that.

His father is super-Lawful Good, of course. I mean, he even refuses to use a gun later on because it would be against the law, and he repeatedly risks his life to save others.

kamikasei
2008-02-06, 11:35 AM
On the other hand, there's the whole interlude where he gives up his memory... he shows no signs of being evil during that.

Hmmm, good point.

I guess part of the problem with analyzing alignment for this show is that a lot of the point of the Death Note is that people who gain the power may find out they're willing to use it against their expectations. Light himself when memory-wiped doesn't believe he would actually use Kira's power if he had it... but the only real difference between that Light and the one who first wrote a name in the Note is that the latter had the Note and the pen there to hand and the temptation was a real and present thing.

So if you wouldn't go out and start killing people according to your principles except that it's been made super-easy for you, aren't you still the person who is willing to do it even when you don't believe it of yourself? Isn't the Light who, if he remembered the Note, would be using it to kill people the same alignment as the one who has it in his possession? Can toggling a power and/or the memory of it on or off make you change alignment? Hmmm.

On the other hand, even if you do consider memory-wiped Light to be non-Evil, I still wouldn't call him Good. He's not just regular old pre-Note Light, he's entangled in the investigation and invested in a) clearing himself and b) catching and punishing Kira - a criminal - which is entirely consistent with his behaviour as Kira. He's just constrained in the means he can employ and the attitude he can display while surrounded by the entire team - and he's trying to convince himself of his innocence on top of that.

Really, the questions the memory wipe raises are much more interesting than Light's normal alignment.

Telonius
2008-02-06, 11:39 AM
Never seen the anime. Just from what the original poster described, I'd put him at Lawful Evil. Lawful because, while he's breaking society's laws, he follows some sort of code: he only kills criminals. Evil because of the lack of mercy and respect for life. There are other ways of neutralizing the threat of criminals than killing them. Convincing them to change their ways would be a Good way of going about it. Sending them all to prison for life would fall somewhere inbetween.

Additionally, the motive (a world without crime) is not necessarily a Good motive. It is a Lawful motive. That can be Good or Evil, depending on the law in question.

kamikasei
2008-02-06, 11:48 AM
Additionally, the motive (a world without crime) is not necessarily a Good motive. It is a Lawful motive. That can be Good or Evil, depending on the law in question.

There seems to be a rather depressing tendency in these sorts of threads (I'm especially thinking of superhero/antihero alignment debates) to argue that, since someone beats up/kills criminals and is all about punishing wrong-doers, that they must therefore be Good or at least non-Evil...

Starbuck_II
2008-02-06, 11:57 AM
There seems to be a rather depressing tendency in these sorts of threads (I'm especially thinking of superhero/antihero alignment debates) to argue that, since someone beats up/kills criminals and is all about punishing wrong-doers, that they must therefore be Good or at least non-Evil...

That is the Punisher's argument.

Tren
2008-02-06, 12:42 PM
I'd categorize Death Note as being Lawful Totally Overrated, with a good smattering of What Do You Mean It's Not Symbolic?

http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatDoYouMeanItsNotSymbolic

At least the anime, I read a bit of the manga and it seemed more sedate, and more interesting.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-06, 12:47 PM
This is why alignment is retarded.


Alignment isn't retarded, trying to apply D&D alignments to a world without the assumption of absolute Good and Evil is retarded.

Xyk
2008-02-06, 05:58 PM
After looking back, I realize Light's alignment does shift more drastically than any dnd character's. A dnd character realizes something is evil because the dm tells him. I think Light truly believed for most of the show that he is lawful good, but I don't know if that matters in DnD. The memory wipe does bring up a good point that he was definetely lawful good at that time. I believe this is one of those "power corrupts" cases.

GrassyGnoll
2008-02-06, 06:38 PM
Just as a kind of rundown
Light- LG (very short)-> LN (again short)-> LE (4-until L starts really mucking around)-> CE (doesn't honor agreements; has delegated actual killing of criminals to Misa; only thing keeping him in line is limits, not morals)
L- CG (goes beyond legal limits sometimes, but the good guy)
Near- NG (it's a game, just that, a game)
Mello- CN (all just an opportunity to show up Near, plus between rape, suicide, and teaming up with mobsters don't a good alignment make)
Misa- CE (a very cute evil, though)
Mikami- LE (no explanation needed)
Takada- Any Evil (she doesn't really make all that many decisions, possibly LE for her dedication to Light)
Ryuk- CE (perhaps the most elaborate black comedian ever)

Everyone else seems to default to LG: Watari, the cops, Light's dad, etc.

Edit: Plural confuse me

Leliel
2008-02-06, 07:50 PM
Light is the embodiment of Lawful Evil, slipping to Neutral Evil after L starts "mucking around", as you say.

L himself is probably Lawful Good, though with emphasis on LAWFUL. He was willing to torture in order to get a dangerous serial killer.

GrassyGnoll
2008-02-06, 08:13 PM
I always considered Neutral on the lawful/chaos axis to be more unwitting, uncaring, or with a purpose to balance. Chaotic seems more fitting since he goes out of his way to avoid the law.

Aquillion
2008-02-06, 08:36 PM
L is complicated, too. His obsessive-compulsive behavior does seem lawful in nature... But let's go over the D&D definitions of the terms in detail.


Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.L defends innocent life, sure, but is that really his real purpose? He often seems to be more interested in solving an interesting puzzle than in saving people.


"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.He does seem to have a respect for life... but concern for dignity? Not really.


People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.Hrm, does he make sacrifices to help others? He puts himself at risk, but that might be confidence and not a sacrifice...


Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.No respect for authority, no particular concern for telling the truth or keeping his word... but he does seem to judge people who fall short of their duties, in a way. He and Kira are alike in that respect.


Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.He follows his conscience and favors new ideas, but this doesn't strike me as overwhelmingly describing him.

But, really... why is he going after Kira? This tells us more about his character than anything else... he defines himself in opposition to Kira despite their similarities in some ways. The only real explaination for this, I think, is that L is at least slightly lawful... Someone who wasn't lawful might still object to Kira's actions, but I don't think he'd define himself so totally in opposition to them if he wasn't lawful himself.

Lawful good or lawful neutral, depending on whether or not you think he's doing it for others or not, and on whether you view the actions that risked his own life as sacrifices or things he just didn't consider important.

Leliel
2008-02-06, 08:40 PM
I always considered Neutral on the lawful/chaos axis to be more unwitting, uncaring, or with a purpose to balance. Chaotic seems more fitting since he goes out of his way to avoid the law.

Accually, he seems to fit the Planescape definition to me: Lawful purpose, Chaotic means. They cancel each other out.