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Talic
2008-02-06, 02:31 AM
Most of us have heard of That Damn Crab. The combat beast of doom. He's had an upgraded version, statted at CR 33. Here's what I want to propose.

Design the lowest ECL Gestahlt character that can beat the crab in melee. No debuffs for the crab, no pun-pun, no diplo-cheese, obey WBL, no candles and the like. Your goal is to out melee a melee beast. Stat out your build, all relevant feats selected, and items that will assist you in overcoming the crab's abilities.

Oh, and stay on the ground. No flight.

Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Monstrous Crab (CR 33)
N Huge Outsider (extraplanar, aquatic, augmented vermin)
Init +13; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +42, Spot +37
Languages Aquan
AC 86 (Size -2, Dex +13, Luck +15, Insight +12, Natural +35, Deflection +3), touch 51, flat-footed 73
hp 544 (16 HD)
Immune mind-affecting effects, transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, aging
Resist fire 10, cold 10, electricity 35, acid 35
DR 15/epic
SR 80
Fort +34, Ref +28, Will +28
Spd 280 ft. (56 squares)
Melee epic tentacle +78 (2d8+46) or
Melee epic claw +78 (2d6+46) or
Melee 5 epic tentacles +78 (2d8+46) and
Melee 2 epic claws +78 (2d6+46)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +82
Atk Options constrict 4d6+46, improved grab, rotting constriction
Abilities Str 63, Dex 36, Con 39, Int 18, Wis 36, Cha 17
SQ amphibious, fast healing 20, constant insight, spell-like abilities, alternate form
Divine Rank 0, domain SLAs (Ocean, Water, Celerity, Animal, Watery Death), grant spells
Feats ToughnessB, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Awesome Blow, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack
Skills Balance +42, Climb +55, Hide +27, Jump +55, Listen +42, Move Silently +31, Spot +37, Tumble +42

Amphibious (Ex): Although an advanced Huge monstrous crab is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an advanced Huge monstrous crab must hit with a claw or tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple with a +13 bonus as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once the creature has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.

Constant Insight (Su): The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target. This bonus is included in the statistics above.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 35th.
At will—obscuring mist, fog cloud, water breathing, control water, ice storm, cone of cold, acid fog, horrid wilting, elemental swarm, calm animals, hold animal, dominate animal, summon nature's ally IV, commune with nature, antilife shell, animal shapes, summon nature's ally VIII, shapechange, entangle, mark of the outcast, control water, rushing waters, dehydrate, drown, contagious fog, horrid wilting, mass drown, endure elements, sound burst, water breathing, freedom of movement, wall of ice, freezing sphere, waterspout, maelstrom, elemental swarm, expeditious retreat, cat's grace, blur, haste, tree stride, wind walk, mass cat's grace, greater blink, time stop. Caster level 25th.
3/day—greater dispel, see invisibility, haste. Caster level 15th.

The DCs are Charisma-based.

Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

Edit: Oh, and assume all buff spells with a duration greater than 5 minutes on the crab's at will spell list are active at all times on the crab.

blue_fenix
2008-02-06, 02:34 AM
Anything//Anything with ring of freedom of movement negates a lot of the crab's strategy. After that it's just number crunching.

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-06, 03:03 AM
No ranged weapons? A monk should be able to outrun it and pelt it with a crossbow. Not sure where the stats on that crab is so I can't check DR, and it's move speed.

Talic
2008-02-06, 03:11 AM
No ranged weapons? A monk should be able to outrun it and pelt it with a crossbow. Not sure where the stats on that crab is so I can't check DR, and it's move speed.

I've edited initial post for the stats of the crab. No, a monk should not be able to outrun that hideous move speed.

Chronicled
2008-02-06, 03:22 AM
What's the conditions for fighting? I.e. will there be time to buff, what's the terrain, etc.

I'm looking at a Cleric//Druid or Crusader//Druid base, but is DMM violating the spirit of the competition? What about having an animal companion help--or should I go Shifter Druid for the beast spirit alternate feature?

A.Sondergaard
2008-02-06, 04:44 AM
Some questions...

First, is the HP regained from rotting constriction contingent on actually doing CON drain, or does it just gain HP because it's grappling?

Second and third, are templates allowed, and if so, how do you adjudicate LA when gestalting? Say, an ECL 6 guy with a +3LA template, would he be template 3-class3/other class6, or template 3-class3/template 3-other class 3?

Fourth, can the character be a necropolitan?

Last, at what point does this test, against a creature having at will Elemental Swarm and Summon Nature's Ally spells, stop being a test to see if you can out-melee a melee beast?

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-06, 04:49 AM
I've edited initial post for the stats of the crab. No, a monk should not be able to outrun that hideous move speed.

OH. It's the upgraded one. I thought it was the CR4 thing.

Pray to your dark gods to take their own back.

Talic
2008-02-06, 04:55 AM
What's the conditions for fighting? I.e. will there be time to buff, what's the terrain, etc.

I'm looking at a Cleric//Druid or Crusader//Druid base, but is DMM violating the spirit of the competition? What about having an animal companion help--or should I go Shifter Druid for the beast spirit alternate feature?

Provided no more than 2 nightsticks, then it's fine. Animal companion, let's assume it's distracting the Crab's mate.

Talic
2008-02-06, 04:57 AM
Some questions...

First, is the HP regained from rotting constriction contingent on actually doing CON drain, or does it just gain HP because it's grappling?

Second and third, are templates allowed, and if so, how do you adjudicate LA when gestalting? Say, an ECL 6 guy with a +3LA template, would he be template 3-class3/other class6, or template 3-class3/template 3-other class 3?

Fourth, can the character be a necropolitan?

Last, at what point does this test, against a creature having at will Elemental Swarm and Summon Nature's Ally spells, stop being a test to see if you can out-melee a melee beast?

1) Contingent.
2) Yes, allowed.
3) Templates count against both classes. So a +3 LA template will reduce your total levels from both sides by 3.
4) Yes.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-06, 05:11 AM
Assuming the following stats remain unchanged after I post my tactics, it is possible to defeat the crab (including its SLAs) at level 20 or, if you want to test your luck, level 17.

Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Monstrous Crab (CR 33)
N Huge Outsider (extraplanar, aquatic, augmented vermin)
Init +13; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +42, Spot +37
Languages Aquan
AC 86 (Size -2, Dex +13, Luck +15, Insight +12, Natural +35, Deflection +3), touch 51, flat-footed 73
hp 544 (16 HD)
Immune mind-affecting effects, transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, aging
Resist fire 10, cold 10, electricity 35, acid 35
DR 15/epic
SR 80
Fort +34, Ref +28, Will +28
Spd 280 ft. (56 squares)
Melee epic tentacle +78 (2d8+46) or
Melee epic claw +78 (2d6+46) or
Melee 5 epic tentacles +78 (2d8+46) and
Melee 2 epic claws +78 (2d6+46)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +82
Atk Options constrict 4d6+46, improved grab, rotting constriction
Abilities Str 63, Dex 36, Con 39, Int 18, Wis 36, Cha 17
SQ amphibious, fast healing 20, constant insight, spell-like abilities, alternate form
Divine Rank 0, domain SLAs (Ocean, Water, Celerity, Animal, Watery Death), grant spells
Feats ToughnessB, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Awesome Blow, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack
Skills Balance +42, Climb +55, Hide +27, Jump +55, Listen +42, Move Silently +31, Spot +37, Tumble +42

Amphibious (Ex): Although an advanced Huge monstrous crab is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an advanced Huge monstrous crab must hit with a claw or tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple with a +13 bonus as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once the creature has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.

Constant Insight (Su): The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target. This bonus is included in the statistics above.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 35th.
At will—obscuring mist, fog cloud, water breathing, control water, ice storm, cone of cold, acid fog, horrid wilting, elemental swarm, calm animals, hold animal, dominate animal, summon nature's ally IV, commune with nature, antilife shell, animal shapes, summon nature's ally VIII, shapechange, entangle, mark of the outcast, control water, rushing waters, dehydrate, drown, contagious fog, horrid wilting, mass drown, endure elements, sound burst, water breathing, freedom of movement, wall of ice, freezing sphere, waterspout, maelstrom, elemental swarm, expeditious retreat, cat's grace, blur, haste, tree stride, wind walk, mass cat's grace, greater blink, time stop. Caster level 25th.
3/day—greater dispel, see invisibility, haste. Caster level 15th.

The DCs are Charisma-based.

Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

NOTE:
The following tactic is infallible as long as the wizard either wins initiative or has a contingent Dimension Door to get himself away from danger then counterattack or employs the horribly cheesy celerity-type spells. Barring celerity, the tactic is still infallible using SRD, Complete Arcane and Complete Mage. The BoVD helps by giving access to an actual Vile Lance.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5
This is essential to protect yourself from the crab's many abilities. Incantatrix is not really required-you can substitute the classe's use for this battle (getting enough timestop action to get all the buffs in one round) with a metamagic rod of quickening or the Sudden Quicken feat.

Timestop:
This is essential to get all the buffs active at once.

Resist Elements/Energy Immunity
The core spell resist elements offers more than adequate protection from the crab's energy-based spellcasting if you take into account the other protective spells below. To be really sure, you got to use the noncore spell Energy Immunity.

Shapechange
You shapechange into any human-shaped incorporeal undead. There are many of them out there. This makes you utterly immune to the crab's meele attacks as well as the attacks of any summoned Nature's allies plus any of its SLAs that affect the living. You also get only half damage from spells and magic weapons which, coupled with resist energy is enough to prevent you from taking energy damage.

Forcecage
This is used to trap the crab and prevent it from retreating.

Globe of Invulnerability
This is used to prevent the crab from using its Dimension Door ability. Because the Crab has immense spell resistance, the normal means for doing so (Dimension Lock, Dimensional Anchor, Forbiddance, ETF) cannot affect it. It has the added benefit of preventing the crab from using its low-level SLAs.

Caster Level Bonuses
It is possible through 2 feats from Complete Arcane and Complete Mage, 2 CL-boosting items and the Archmage's High Arcana to get CL 23, 25 for abjuration spells. This is essential to make the Crab's Greater Dispel Magic as ineffective as possible. A 20th level wizard can make the GDM utterly useless, ensuring the infallibility of the tactic.

+5 MAGEBANE GHOST TOUCH VILE LANCE
This is the weapon that will kill the crab. By this point it is trapped and it cannot use its low-level SLAs. It can still use GDM but its CL is not that high. The Vile Lance is not the actual Vile Lance spell but a shortspear under the continious effect of Curse Weapon, rendering the damage it deals unhealable. If your DM actually allows a Vile Lance item, even better. While not an Epic weapon, it counts as Epic against the crab, thus bypassing its DR. Since the crab cannot harm our meeling wizard and cannot escape, all the wizard has to do is roll enough natural 20s to kill it.

Talic
2008-02-06, 05:31 AM
Assuming the following stats remain unchanged after I post my tactics, it is possible to defeat the crab (including its SLAs) at level 20 or, if you want to test your luck, level 17.

Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Monstrous Crab (CR 33)
N Huge Outsider (extraplanar, aquatic, augmented vermin)
Init +13; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +42, Spot +37
Languages Aquan
AC 86 (Size -2, Dex +13, Luck +15, Insight +12, Natural +35, Deflection +3), touch 51, flat-footed 73
hp 544 (16 HD)
Immune mind-affecting effects, transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, aging
Resist fire 10, cold 10, electricity 35, acid 35
DR 15/epic
SR 80
Fort +34, Ref +28, Will +28
Spd 280 ft. (56 squares)
Melee epic tentacle +78 (2d8+46) or
Melee epic claw +78 (2d6+46) or
Melee 5 epic tentacles +78 (2d8+46) and
Melee 2 epic claws +78 (2d6+46)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +82
Atk Options constrict 4d6+46, improved grab, rotting constriction
Abilities Str 63, Dex 36, Con 39, Int 18, Wis 36, Cha 17
SQ amphibious, fast healing 20, constant insight, spell-like abilities, alternate form
Divine Rank 0, domain SLAs (Ocean, Water, Celerity, Animal, Watery Death), grant spells
Feats ToughnessB, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Awesome Blow, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack
Skills Balance +42, Climb +55, Hide +27, Jump +55, Listen +42, Move Silently +31, Spot +37, Tumble +42

Amphibious (Ex): Although an advanced Huge monstrous crab is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an advanced Huge monstrous crab must hit with a claw or tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple with a +13 bonus as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once the creature has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.

Constant Insight (Su): The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target. This bonus is included in the statistics above.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 35th.
At will—obscuring mist, fog cloud, water breathing, control water, ice storm, cone of cold, acid fog, horrid wilting, elemental swarm, calm animals, hold animal, dominate animal, summon nature's ally IV, commune with nature, antilife shell, animal shapes, summon nature's ally VIII, shapechange, entangle, mark of the outcast, control water, rushing waters, dehydrate, drown, contagious fog, horrid wilting, mass drown, endure elements, sound burst, water breathing, freedom of movement, wall of ice, freezing sphere, waterspout, maelstrom, elemental swarm, expeditious retreat, cat's grace, blur, haste, tree stride, wind walk, mass cat's grace, greater blink, time stop. Caster level 25th.
3/day—greater dispel, see invisibility, haste. Caster level 15th.

The DCs are Charisma-based.

Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

NOTE:
The following tactic is infallible as long as the wizard either wins initiative or has a contingent Dimension Door to get himself away from danger then counterattack or employs the horribly cheesy celerity-type spells. Barring celerity, the tactic is still infallible using SRD, Complete Arcane and Complete Mage. The BoVD helps by giving access to an actual Vile Lance.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5
This is essential to protect yourself from the crab's many abilities. Incantatrix is not really required-you can substitute the classe's use for this battle (getting enough timestop action to get all the buffs in one round) with a metamagic rod of quickening or the Sudden Quicken feat.

Timestop:
This is essential to get all the buffs active at once.

Resist Elements/Energy Immunity
The core spell resist elements offers more than adequate protection from the crab's energy-based spellcasting if you take into account the other protective spells below. To be really sure, you got to use the noncore spell Energy Immunity.

Shapechange
You shapechange into any human-shaped incorporeal undead. There are many of them out there. This makes you utterly immune to the crab's meele attacks as well as the attacks of any summoned Nature's allies plus any of its SLAs that affect the living. You also get only half damage from spells and magic weapons which, coupled with resist energy is enough to prevent you from taking energy damage.

Forcecage
This is used to trap the crab and prevent it from retreating.

Globe of Invulnerability
This is used to prevent the crab from using its Dimension Door ability. Because the Crab has immense spell resistance, the normal means for doing so (Dimension Lock, Dimensional Anchor, Forbiddance, ETF) cannot affect it. It has the added benefit of preventing the crab from using its low-level SLAs.

Caster Level Bonuses
It is possible through 2 feats from Complete Arcane and Complete Mage, 2 CL-boosting items and the Archmage's High Arcana to get CL 23, 25 for abjuration spells. This is essential to make the Crab's Greater Dispel Magic as ineffective as possible. A 20th level wizard can make the GDM utterly useless, ensuring the infallibility of the tactic.

+5 MAGEBANE GHOST TOUCH VILE LANCE
This is the weapon that will kill the crab. By this point it is trapped and it cannot use its low-level SLAs. It can still use GDM but its CL is not that high. The Vile Lance is not the actual Vile Lance spell but a shortspear under the continious effect of Curse Weapon, rendering the damage it deals unhealable. If your DM actually allows a Vile Lance item, even better. While not an Epic weapon, it counts as Epic against the crab, thus bypassing its DR. Since the crab cannot harm our meeling wizard and cannot escape, all the wizard has to do is roll enough natural 20s to kill it.

Globe of Invulnerability violates the Debuffs for the crab term of the challenge. So does Forcecage.

Buffing yourself is fine. But restricting the crab in any way that does not involve you grabbing it, physically pushing it, or hitting it with something, is against the rules. MELEE ONLY. If you cast, it'd better be spells that do not affect the crab, or if they do, are delivered with melee touch attacks.

Nebo_
2008-02-06, 05:51 AM
Beastland Ferocity, Delay Death, persisted Wraithstrike and a ring of freedom of movement should do wonders. Pump your attack rolls and just keep hacking until it dies.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-06, 05:57 AM
The forcecage and Globe of Invulnerability are cast on the wizard, NOT the crab. As such, they do not count as debuffs-it is definitely not the wizard's fault that the crab happens to be right next to him when these spells take effect and is thus included in the AoE.

Alternatively (if you don't like my reasoning above), one can employ a Cloud Charriot scroll to be able to move 1 mile/round and still attack the crab. In that case, the plan is still infallible-the crab can't move more than 1 mile/round and only about 100 attacks are required to kill it if the wizard fully power attacks with a two-handed weapon (which he will have no reason not to do). If the crab employs his Tree Stride to teleport away, it still counts as beaten and it will have taken much unhealable damage to boot.

Talic
2008-02-06, 06:08 AM
The forcecage and Globe of Invulnerability are cast on the wizard, NOT the crab. As such, they do not count as debuffs-it is definitely not the wizard's fault that the crab happens to be right next to him when these spells take effect and is thus included in the AoE.

Alternatively (if you don't like my reasoning above), one can employ a Cloud Charriot scroll to be able to move 1 mile/round and still attack the crab. In that case, the plan is still infallible-the crab can't move more than 1 mile/round and only about 100 attacks are required to kill it if the wizard fully power attacks with a two-handed weapon (which he will have no reason not to do). If the crab employs his Tree Stride to teleport away, it still counts as beaten and it will have taken much unhealable damage to boot.

In that case, how are you going to survive the time in melee range of the crab? It's got a better melee than you.

As for Forcecage, if it restricts the crab, it counts as a debuff.

As for globe of invulnerability, if it prevents the crab from using SLA's that target itself, then it counts as debuffs.

Arguing what does and doesn't constitute a violation of the terms of a challenge is a bit of an uphill battle when you're doing it with the person who set the terms. Just sayin.

As for the rest... Chariot spell violates the No flight condition.

The Glyphstone
2008-02-06, 06:11 AM
But by that logic, wouldn't Greater Invisibility also count as a debuff, because it's restricting the crab by making it harder to hit you? Yes, it has constant True Seeing, that was somewhat hypothetical.

It'll be much harder to make a build capable of winning if every tactic is nixed on the ground of additional rules/clarifications added after the fact.

Talic
2008-02-06, 06:17 AM
But by that logic, wouldn't Greater Invisibility also count as a debuff, because it's restricting the crab by making it harder to hit you? Yes, it has constant True Seeing, that was somewhat hypothetical.

It'll be much harder to make a build capable of winning if every tactic is nixed on the ground of additional rules/clarifications added after the fact.

The spirit of the contest is simple. Pick a PC capable race. Boost it with gestahlt, templates, or what have you. Beat the crab in melee. Using non-melee abilities with the specific and sole goal of neutralizing the crab's ability to move or use its powers isn't following that.

As for your first question, no, it's not the same. Spells that only affect you are one thing. Spells that include an enemy in their area of affect are another. That is affecting the crab with a non-melee combat ability, designed to reduce its effectiveness.

That is a debuff.

Talic
2008-02-06, 06:24 AM
However, the Globe trick wouldn't even work. There's no way to get the crab inside the emanation. If you are literally IN it's square, it might, but then there's no way that forcecage will protect you from the tentacles..

Yeah, those might be thin enough to get through bars too, just like the lance.

Chronicled
2008-02-06, 06:27 AM
However, the Globe trick wouldn't even work. There's no way to get the crab inside the emanation. If you are literally IN it's square, it might, but then there's no way that forcecage will protect you from the tentacles..

Yeah, those might be thin enough to get through bars too, just like the lance.

He's not poking into the cage, he's standing in the cage with the crab. The cage just lets him ensure the crab won't run away with its obscenely high speed.

I like this answer! I was looking at using shapechange, but getting incorporeality with it hadn't occurred to me.

Talic
2008-02-06, 06:46 AM
He's not poking into the cage, he's standing in the cage with the crab. The cage just lets him ensure the crab won't run away with its obscenely high speed.

I like this answer! I was looking at using shapechange, but getting incorporeality with it hadn't occurred to me.

Ah, by that logic, then yes. I misunderstood the use of the abilities. However, if the mage is incorporeal, then spells (including Globe) will have a 50% chance of having no effect on the normal world. The crab could still likely escape. However, how do you react to the crab disarming? It can disarm a ghost touch weapon, and can actually likely sunder it.

Also, that beast has a 50+ touch AC too. Even with wraithstrike, power attack is hardly a sure thing.

Talic
2008-02-06, 07:07 AM
Also note, the crab can use higher level SLA's, such as freezing sphere (force effect) to protect itself from incorporeal foes, and other higher level SLA's to deal damage, such as Cone of cold, and the like. even with a 50/50 shot, it'll have some means of fighting back.

Using the forcecage to trap it INTO melee, I think that's more in the spirit of the challenge, and the incorporeal is a nice touch. Yeah, that works, provided you can outlast it's SLA's. (Will it take too long to hit it 100 times? How many times does it need to hit you with a Cone of cold? Acid Fog? etc?)

Chronicled
2008-02-06, 07:11 AM
How many times does it need to hit you with a Cone of cold? Acid Fog? etc?)

That's what the Energy Immunity is for. Although, in the contest's true spirit, shouldn't the crab be meleeing only? :smallwink:

Kazuel
2008-02-06, 07:15 AM
For 1 I think the intent was for the wizard to roll nat 20s and thus negate the AC of the beast. Also, by your logic, armor isn't allowed because it makes the crab less effective. Weapons too shouldn't be allowed because getting hurt makes it less effective. I think Belial wins and deserves a cookie. Congrats!

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 08:00 AM
ECL 21 Elf (Half Elf would be preferable for multiclassing penalty if racial allows taking Eternal Blade PRC) is one method. ECL 22 adding the Spell stiched template.

Warblade -10, Eternal Blade-10, Necropoliton - 1//Factotum -1*, Crusader-1*, Factotum +2, Sword Sage -1, (Mix to personal taste 5 levels of Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade, Iajustsu Master, Stormguard Warrior), For the final 10 levels: Marshal -1 (Motivate Intelligence), +4 Warblade levels at Eternal Blade levels 2, 4, 8 & 10, taking +2 Crusader levels and +1 Sword Sage level +2, Necropoliton -1, +2 other levels to personal taste:

+20 BAB, Initiator level -20 with Warblade Recovery based on Warblade -14 + Eternal Blade -10.

*The Crusader and Sword Sage levels basically provide foundation prerequisite manuevers to allow the Warblade/Eternal Blade class to take the highest level manuevers while meeting the prerequisites since Initiatior Level might not gestalt and they would have to use the standard multiclassing rules instead of taking the best features of the two classes. Later in the build it will add little things like Action Points and the very high Int mod to AC which will be high due to wearing magical armor (With the Crab's High BAB probably go for minimal magic armor according to SWBL) probably something like Celestial Armor for the flying ability and normal wandering around the town down time).

Primary Warblade/Eternal Blade: MK 15/ MR 8/SK 4 utilizing Warblade Recovery. Lots of manuever options with Eternal Blade and a Initiator Level of 20.

Eternal Blade Island in Time once an encounter plus Eternal Training 5/day. Guided Strike special ignores creature DR.

This PC should have the Immortal Fortitude Stance so he cannot die due to hit point damage which might not be legal in all games in which case add the Soul Locked template so he can keep coming back if he loses or move on.

Figure Int and Charisma are 15 and 14 base to start. At level 20 Int will be 20 due to leveling.

Intelligence and Charisma can be enhanced using SWbL. Motivate Aura Intelligence will boost all Intelligence bonuses allowing this PC to do crazy things with Intelligence based class specials and feats.

The PC should win Initiative based on Factotum -3 class special regarding applying Int mod to Dex bonus checks.

Take a feat like Kung Fu Genius or Caramendine Monk for Int to AC.

Take extra Fonts of Inspiration Feats.

P.S. It would take several or more games to get a good feel for how the various game mechanics work and interact in your campaign. 1 simple mistake or rules interpretation would kill most PCs. Of course if the PC encountered this thing shapechanged he might not even be aware of what he was dealing with for quite a bit.

Basically adding the Einherjer template would be one of the best things to do for most PCs but I'm not sure how that template would be weighted while Necropolitan is clear at +1LA.

Gear: 1 or 2* Torcs of Anti Magic 25,000 gp each from Underdark addresses most spell like abilities. (The Second torc would be crafted by an Arch Mage with High Arcana "Shaping" depending on how martial adept manuevers work inside a antimagic field for a martial adept).

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-06, 08:31 AM
Belial the leveller? Playing a cheesy incantatrix/archmage shapechanging batman wizard? I would never have credited it! :smalltongue:

Telonius
2008-02-06, 08:38 AM
I seem to remember a Warlock build that could damage the crab....?

Lighturtle
2008-02-06, 08:55 AM
Crab has timestop at will, how the crap can you beat it?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-06, 09:22 AM
Crab has timestop at will, how the crap can you beat it?

It is possible for a PC to get timestop at will for a mere 183,600, using no cheese beyond the magic item design rules.

Citizen Joe
2008-02-06, 10:24 AM
I had actually considered a TDC challenge before to test out builds. There are four possible arenas
1. Underwater
2. Sandy beach (sand = no grease)
3. Underwater grotto/cave (restricted movement/closed environment)
4. Aboard ship

So, pick your environment.

lord_khaine
2008-02-06, 10:32 AM
It is possible for a PC to get timestop at will for a mere 183,600, using no cheese beyond the magic item design rules.


there isnt magic item design rules, there are guideline that requires comparing the final product with the existing magic items to see if the result makes sense.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-06, 10:53 AM
there isnt magic item design rules, there are guideline that requires comparing the final product with the existing magic items to see if the result makes sense.

The phrase 'DM' is not mentioned once in this passage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

I agree with you - magic item design isn't a set of rules, but there isn't an existing item that gives you a price for an at will 9th level spell, so we go to the guidelines for creating one.

I'm not arguing that that's right, far from it - but that is the RAW. And it's stupid.



But no less stupid than the rules giving all deities with the time, celerity, trickery, and who knows what other domains timestop at will, which is the most powerful ability in the game.

lord_khaine
2008-02-06, 11:57 AM
no but the phrase DM is actualy mentioned at page 282 of the dmg, in the lower right colum, where it also say table 7-33 is a guideline, so i dont agree on that you by raw can design your own magic items.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 12:07 PM
no but the phrase DM is actualy mentioned at page 282 of the dmg, in the lower right colum, where it also say table 7-33 is a guideline, so i dont agree on that you by raw can design your own magic items.

I disagree by RAW any PC can "design" magic items as per the RAW mechanics however by RAW the DM determines if the item is acceptable and viable for his or her game since a perfectly designed item mechanically would not necessarily work in all campaigns. Similar to most DMs not letting PCs buy "Core" Candles of Invocation with their SWL and exploring Wish territory or branching out even furhter into Infinite Loop territory.

Indon
2008-02-06, 12:32 PM
The phrase 'DM' is not mentioned once in this passage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

But it does say, 'The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth.' (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#otherConsiderations)

As for deities, they're deities.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-06, 12:33 PM
Ah, by that logic, then yes. I misunderstood the use of the abilities. However, if the mage is incorporeal, then spells (including Globe) will have a 50% chance of having no effect on the normal world. The crab could still likely escape. However, how do you react to the crab disarming? It can disarm a ghost touch weapon, and can actually likely sunder it.

Also, that beast has a 50+ touch AC too. Even with wraithstrike, power attack is hardly a sure thing.

Yes, I was merely using the Globe of Invulnerability and the Forcecage to prevent the Crab from running away from the attrition fight. It is not much of a problem-it can only dimension door away a couple of times and it'll eventually die but I'm simply making the plan easier.

Being incorporeal does not stop your own spells from affecting anyone else-it only stops their spells from affecting you. (Libris Mortis Incorporeality rules clarification) That is a moot point anyway because abjurations and force effects affect incorporeal and even ethereal enemies normally.

The crab cannot disarm or sunder. A ghost touch weapon acts, at any time, as either corporeal or incorporeal, what would be most beneficial to the wielder. So, when I hit the crab, the weapon acts as corporeal, doing damage. When the crab tries to hit me, the weapon is incorporeal, thus it cannot disarm or sunder it.


Also note, the crab can use higher level SLA's, such as freezing sphere (force effect) to protect itself from incorporeal foes, and other higher level SLA's to deal damage, such as Cone of cold, and the like. even with a 50/50 shot, it'll have some means of fighting back.

Using the forcecage to trap it INTO melee, I think that's more in the spirit of the challenge, and the incorporeal is a nice touch. Yeah, that works, provided you can outlast it's SLA's. (Will it take too long to hit it 100 times? How many times does it need to hit you with a Cone of cold? Acid Fog? etc?)

Energy Immunity (the noncore, foolproof way) lasts 24 hours. Resist Energy (the core, slightly less effective way) lasts 10 minutes per caster level. All my buffs last at least 1 minute per caster level and that means repeat castings give me at least one hour-600 rounds-to kill it. By Power Attacking for full with a two-handed effectively +7 bane spear and a strength of 18 including items, I deal 1d8+7+6+2d6+20 epic unhealable damage per natural 20. That's an average of 45 points of damage, requiring an average of 13 hits. 600 rounds theoretically translate to 30 hits-twice the time required to deal with it.



As for the rest... Chariot spell violates the No flight condition.
I won't be flying. Just moving at that nice ultraspeed at a foot or two over the ground in order to keep up with its ground speed. Just because I can fly doesn't mean I have to. It is solely for the reason of keeping up with the crab in case it runs.



Crab has timestop at will, how the crap can you beat it?
It doesn't matter. Even if it summons an entire army they can't harm me and it can't heal itself. Eventually it will die.

Indon
2008-02-06, 12:42 PM
It doesn't matter. Even if it summons an entire army they can't harm me and it can't heal itself. Eventually it will die.

You do realize, Forcecage creates a 10x10 box, and can't hold anything of Large size or greater. Unless you somehow metamagic a Forcecage to be 20x20, you can't fit both yourself and the crab (a Huge creature) into it.

Edit: It also has Greater Blink (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm) at will. It kills you.

Mikeavelli
2008-02-06, 12:54 PM
Alright, this is a quick and dirty version of the That Damn Crab killer:

Since this is That damned Crab, I'm going to cheese, and cheese hard:

Gestalt, one half of the equation is:

Wizard 5\Bard 1\Ur-Priest 2 \ Fortunes Friend 2 \Sublime Chord 1 \ Mystic Theurge 7 \ Fortunes Friend 3

This is, as I said, quick and dirty, it gets you nearly every spell in the game, and is enough for our purposes.

The second half of the equation is:

Lion Totem Barbarian 1 \ Ranger 1 \ Fighter 4 \ Frenzied Berserker 10 \ Full BAB class 4.

The necessary feats are: the Shock Trooper \ Leap Attack Tree combo, and Favored Power Attack.

Also helpful is the Luck feat Tree to get Better Lucky than Good, negating that nasty chance of rolling a 1.

Favored power attack with a two-handed weapon nets you a 1:3 BAB to Damage benefit. Supreme Power Attack from Frenzied berserker nets you a 1:4 ratio. No sane DM would allow you to stack them, but no sane DM would allowed a Frenzied Berserker in the first place, or put you up against TDC at level 20, so I'm going to have them stack, for the sake of arguement at a 1:6 ratio.

Grab a Crab Bane Greataxe (some say Greatsword is better, but the axe is for flavor) +5, a +6 Strength item, and a Ring of the White Wyrm (Frostburn).

Prepping:
We've got every spell in the game to deal with this thing, so we can figure out where it is, prep, teleport in, and let loose.

Freedom of Movement
Shapechange: Titan
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Righteous Might
Greater Visage of the Diety
Haste
Bless
True Strike
Contingency: True Strike

Since this monstrosity is filled with templates, I decided templates were the best way to go. Shapechange makes you a Titan, followed by Ring of the White Wyrm to become a half-Dragon, followed by GVotD to become Half-Celestial (or Half-fiend, whatever).

Total strength at this point 43(base)+6(item)+8(Righteous Might)+4(Half-Dragon)+4(Half-Fiend)=65. Now, we get to go into a Blood Rage, making it an even 75.

To hit: 20 BAB + 32 strength + 3 Righteous Wrath of the Faithful + 1 favored enemy + 7 Crabbane axe + 5 Lucky Strike + 1 weapon focus (Greataxe) + 1 bless = 70, not quite enough, is it?

That's why, immediately before going into a Frenzy, you cast True Strike. Have a Contingency: True Strike (Set to go off "when I make an attack without true strike") on you, an attack Bonus of +90\+85 and you've got two hits that can only miss on a 1.

But wait, Better Lucky than Good just turns it into a Nat 20! And fortunes Friend means we can do that with both attacks! Hooray!

Power attack for 20 with a 1:6 ratio means 120, doubled with leap attack means 240. 1.5 Strength gets you another 48.

288 minus 15 because we still don't have an epic weapon is 273.

273 times 2 is 546. Without even adding in the weapon damage, crab has 544 hit points, it's dead before it even knows what hit it.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-06, 01:37 PM
TACTIC #2

You are a wizard 5/Fighter 1/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 4 sneaking under cover of greater invisibility and incorporeality on the crab from more than 120 ft away to avoid true seeing.

Preparatory Round (can be done before combat)
1) Automaxed Rod-Quickened Time Stop
T1) Shapechange (or similar) into a Pit Fend. You now have strength 37 and nearly full BAB.
T2) Apply +6 enhancement bonus from your belt of strength. Strength 43.
T2) Apply +4 from Greater Veil of the Deity. Strength 47.
T3) Apply +24 from Giant Size scroll, spell, or emulated effect. Strength 71.
T4) Apply +16 from Bite of the Werebear. Strength 87.
T4) You take out of your extradimensional storing space your
+5 magebane, outsider bane amulet of natural attacks of whoop-ass
T5) Haste.
T5) You take out of your extradimensional storing space your (now giant-sized)
+5 magebane, outsider bane heavy greatmace of whoop-ass
T5) Quickened Lion's Charge
2) Autoquickened timestop-Shadow Conjure a contingency teleport in case you're attacked from the crab. Delay a Wraithstrike on yourself for the next round. Drop Incorporeality.

Offencive Round

a) Wraithstrike comes into effect. Burn a 9th level slot to Arcane Strike because it's cool (and gives +9d4 damage and +9 attack)
b) Power Attack for 10 points.
b) CHARGE!!!

You attack the crab's touch AC due to wraithstrike at +18 (pit fiend BAB), +2 (weapon foci), +9 (enhancement), +2 charge, +39 strength, -8 size for a whooping total of +62 ATTACK BONUS All attacks hit. Your secondary attacks of wings, bite and tail also hit.

Your whooping-size heavy greatmace deals damage as one size category larger than colossal. That's a base of 12d6 points of damage. Bite and tail do 12d6, wings do 6d6. Extra damage for the whoop-ass greatmace is +9 enhancement, +20 power attack, +4d6 bane, +58 strength. Bite and tail are +39 stregth instead. Wings are +19 strength instead.

Attacks hitting are:
5x Whoop-ass Greatmace at 16d6+9d4+87
1x Bite at 12d6+9d4+68
1x tail at 12d6+9d4+68
2x Wings at 6d6+9d4+39

The crab is flat-footed so we probably get to power attack for another 8 points (+16 damage to all attacks) but it would be an overkill. We already did a whooping total of
1235 meele damage with a 20th level wizard vs AC 51

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-06, 01:41 PM
Damn ninjas! That's what happens when you do calculations while you post. Still, I used no templates and no gestalt. :smallsmile:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 01:42 PM
Pretty nice builds.

Mikeavelli
2008-02-06, 01:56 PM
Yup, hats off to doing it without Gestalt. I just got fixated on the Leaping shock trooper build, and couldn't pull it off without magic.

Chronicled
2008-02-06, 02:18 PM
Mikeavelli (simply brilliant choice of handle, I must add), you do know that you can't have a PrC on both sides of your gestalt build at the same time, right?

Mikeavelli
2008-02-06, 02:26 PM
Yeah, but with a few of those spells Belial reminded me of (Bite of the Werebear alone should cover all the bonuses I got from Cleric spells), I'd be able to just use the Frenzied Berserker build and Wizard 20 to do pretty much the same job.

Chronicled
2008-02-06, 02:39 PM
Yeah, but with a few of those spells Belial reminded me of (Bite of the Werebear alone should cover all the bonuses I got from Cleric spells), I'd be able to just use the Frenzied Berserker build and Wizard 20 to do pretty much the same job.

I wasn't suggesting that your build wasn't a viable concept without PrCing on both sides. Glad to see it wouldn't take much re-tooling.

A.Sondergaard
2008-02-06, 08:03 PM
Nothing buildwise to add at this point, but...
Crab has timestop at will, how the crap can you beat it?I'd like to note that the Crab is immune to its own time stop.

Frosty
2008-02-06, 08:31 PM
Umm...I can bring a Pseudo-natural monstrous (beast) multiheaded kitten of legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3245294&postcount=42) to beat the crab. Does that count? :smallbiggrin:

http://www.webdesign.org/img_articles/7072/BW-kitten.jpg

Idea Man
2008-02-07, 12:43 AM
I thought we did this already. Oh well, I like the challenge. :smallcool:

Ftr-Bar-Frenzied Berserker/Rogue 20th lvl

Required Feats: Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer

TOOLS
Keen outsider bane viscious +5 spiked chain
Ring of Freedom of Action
Scroll of Contingency and Dimension Door
Scroll of Giant Size from Complete Arcane (20th lvl)
Scrolls Masochism and Sadism from BoVD (20th lvl)
Scroll of Maximized Summon Monster 3 (backups may be necessary)

The Plan: Prepare contingent dim door to go off when you kill 5 outsiders in six seconds. Go giant size, you sadomasochist. Summon five SM 1 outsiders. Rage and frenzy. Max power attack/kill summoned monsters, dim door to Damn Crab.

If you win initiative, go all out; you have more than +400 to hit (or more than +100 to hit, if I'm remembering it wrong). Supreme power attack will quadruple damage, strength should be pretty impressive (let's see: pow atk +80, str +22, enhancement +7, sword 6d6[?], bane +2d6, viscious +2d6: avg 142 dmg). If the Crab wins, it'll go all out on you, attempt to cast, or run (but why would it?), but you can't die in frenzy from damage, it can't cast within reach of you (no concentration skill, DC 100+), and it can't grapple you. Crab fast heals 20 points. After the first round, the crab will try to run..... crunch!

Oh, yeah, that doesn't include sneak attack. Possible stumbling block if you should happen to roll a one.

To make this encounter survivable, make the chain intelligent, special purpose: slay spell casting opponents. Special ability: true ressurection 1/month.