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BadJuJu
2008-02-06, 08:01 AM
OK, I was wanting to make a leadership based PC and was asking what some suggestions were. Im thinking about a Pal/Bard. Ill be 11-12th level. I appreciate all the help.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-06, 08:06 AM
Due to Arcane Spell failure, you would need to have a good Dex to boost your AC (I don't think Bard's Armoured Casting ability applies to shields). Alternatively, if you can afford it, you could get Battle Casting as a feat to allow your characer to wear medium armour without ACF before getting Mithril Full Plate (I think a Mithril Buckler would have a 0% chance of ACF as well).
In regards to alignment, you may want to play as a Paladin of Freedom, which is the same as a normal Paladin apart from being CG rather then LG unless your DM allows Bards to be lawful, or check page 73 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf for some more interesting Paladin variants. Str is improtant being as you'll probably be fighting on the frontlines a lot (what's your character's stats, and do you know who the other party members will be?). Buff spells would probably be a good choice, as would be Illusions due to how you'll be gaining Bard spells at a slow rate, so the save DCs may end up being low enough for them to be a liability if they need saving throws.
Due to your Paladin levels, healing isn't as improtant regarding your Bard spell selection, but I'd say Heroism and Invisibility (with the Greater versions of these if you survive long enogh o learn them) would be useful, as is Good Hope, Haste, and possibly Glibness if your the party face.

Renegade Paladin
2008-02-06, 08:14 AM
The Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer allows free multiclassing between paladin and bard. You have to be lawful good, but can advance bard anyway. It also stacks paladin and bard levels for smite evil and bardic music.

Darrin
2008-02-06, 08:20 AM
OK, I was wanting to make a leadership based PC and was asking what some suggestions were. Im thinking about a Pal/Bard. Ill be 11-12th level. I appreciate all the help.

I would recommend the Song of Death Bardic Badass (ToB Crusader + Song of the White Raven + Dragonfire Inspiration):

http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-795369.html

Crazy Scot
2008-02-06, 08:51 AM
If you are looking to go for a Leadership type character (and if your DM will allow 3.0 books) you might want to take a close look at the Warmaster prestige class from Sword and Fist p. 37. One of its requirements is the feat Weapon Specialization, meaning you would have to change your build a bit, but as far as Leadership goes, I have not found many other prestige classes that offer as much. I have outlined the class below. The reasons I like it are that it gives you a nice boost to your Leadership score every other level and it gives you a stronghold (which should count as a discretionary modifier to your leadership score) to give you a place to store your gear between adventures. It also acts as a place to rest, get stuff fixed, get new stuff, and also allows for recruitment of even more followers. Like I said it has some good abilities to go with it, but it would require you to change your base class progression that you were already planning. Use it if you wish.

Warmaster
Prereq:
BAB: +7
Diplomacy: 5 ranks
Alignment: Any non-chaotic, non-evil
Feats: Leadership, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Specialization

10 level prestige class
BAB - good
Good save - Fort

Class abilities:
Brotherhood: When you join this prestige class you join a brotherhood of Warmasters, and members are generally willing to lend a hand to their fellows. You gain a +4 competence bonus to Diplomacy checks with other Warmasters. This is a two-way street, you are expected to help them as well.
Leadership bonus: At every odd numbered level you gain an additional +1 bonus to your Leadership score allowing you to attract more followers.
Battle Cry: Starting at 2nd level, when your shout rings across the battlefield, it lifts the spirits of your allies. This ability functions like the bard's Inspire Courage ability. The bonus lasts a number of rounds = your Charisma bonus. Usable 1/day per 3 levels in this class.
Direct Troops: Starting at 3rd level, as a full-round action, you can give compelling directions. You can bestow a +2 competence bonus on either attacks or skill checks to all allies within 30'. This bonus lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus.
Tower: At 4th level, an organization affiliated with you has offered to build you a tower in a mutually agreeable location. As long as you uphold the ideals of the organization, you can manage the tower as you see fit. You are responsible for upkeep costs. A tower is a round or square, three-story building made of stone.
Rally Troops: Starting at 4th level, your presence is enough to grant any allies within 30' a second saving throw against fear and charm effects that they have already succomed to. Even if they fail the second saving throw, any fear effects are less severe: panicked are only frightened, frightened are only shaken, and shaken are not affected.
Hard March: Starting at 5th level, you can exhort your troops to march faster. Anyone traveling with you gains a +4 morale bonus to Constitution checks required for making a forced march or any other task requiring extended exertion. Animals are not affected.
Keep: At 6th level, you get a Keep (as "Tower" above). A keep is a fortified stone building with fifteen to twenty-five rooms.
Battle Standard: Starting at 7th level, the mere sight of your coat of arms or other haraldic display is enogh to turn the tide of battle. Allies within 30' of your standard gain the effects of both Battle Cry and Rally Troops (as above) as long as the standard is within range and held by yoy. If you standard is captured in battle, all allies within range aware of its loss suffer a -1 morale penalty to attacks and damage until it is recovered, in addition to losing the benefits described above.
Castle: At 8th level, you get a Castle (as "Tower" above). A castle is a keep surrounded by a 15' high stone wall with four towers. The wall is 10' thick.
Die For Your Country: Starting at 9th level, your presence inspires your troops to make the ultimate sacrifice for your casue. Any allies within 30' of you can continue to fight while disabled or dying without penalty. They continue until they reach -10 hit points.
Huge Castle: At 10th level, you get a Huge Castle, (as "Tower" above). This large complex has numerous associated buildings (stables, a forge, granaries, etc), and an elaborate 20' high, 10' thick wall creating bailey and courtyard areas. Teh wall has 6 towers.

BadJuJu
2008-02-06, 12:19 PM
Yeah, Crusader sounds cool. I have a 32 point build. The party is a VOP psion, a Pal/Sor/Abjurant Champion, a very bad dwarf Fighter, a dragon shaman, a DMM cleric, a ranger, a goblin warlock, and a bad skill monkey dwarf. I know a big party that is gonna get bigger due to my Leadership. I was thinking my stats as
Str-14
Dex-14
Con-14
Int-14
Wis-8(ouch)
Cha-15
After stat boosts, Ill have a 16 in cha and strength. I could just lower my dex to 12 and not worry about my Bard spells, since I mostly just want the music. The bardic song of death looks cool, but Im not trying to take over the game with the "I win" button. I ditched an Illusionist because I was bored with powning.

Tellah
2008-02-06, 12:44 PM
You're one of 9 players at the table? Be kind to your gaming buddies; don't do Leadership. Leadership is good when you have too few players at the table to fill all the needed party roles, but it really clogs up the table when you're already crowded.

BadJuJu
2008-02-06, 02:11 PM
You're one of 9 players at the table? Be kind to your gaming buddies; don't do Leadership. Leadership is good when you have too few players at the table to fill all the needed party roles, but it really clogs up the table when you're already crowded.

As I said though, there are alot of useless characters. And besides, the only one who may get any play at all is the cohort. The rest consider waiting for a fight role playing. They sit around and play with their cell phones or lab tops and then gripe when they miss some information. But thats not the point of the thread. I just want advice on leadership and a Bard/Pal or Crusader

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-06, 02:18 PM
Looking at your Wis, you may want to take me Magicless paladin variant so you would get some other abilities while possibly taking a few Bardic Cure spells (I assumed your Wis would be good).

BadJuJu
2008-02-06, 04:41 PM
I forgot Wis is an important score for Pals. I may just go with Crusader soi I dont need a high dex and WIs. I need some dump stats with a point buy. Ill just take the feat that lets me cast in medium armor and make FP or Heavy Plate mitheral.

Draz74
2008-02-06, 05:02 PM
You can still dip a Bard level (your first level?) to get a bunch of skill points, and take Song of the White Raven. Excellent feat for a team-focused Crusader.

Aerogoat
2008-02-06, 05:20 PM
You can still dip a Bard level (your first level?) to get a bunch of skill points, and take Song of the White Raven. Excellent feat for a team-focused Crusader. If you expect more than one fight per day, 4, 6 or 8 Bard levels are probably the best numbers to take.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-06, 05:25 PM
Crusader or Marshall. Seriously.

BadJuJu
2008-02-06, 05:25 PM
You can still dip a Bard level (your first level?) to get a bunch of skill points, and take Song of the White Raven. Excellent feat for a team-focused Crusader.

Yeah, I plan on being a Bard, even if its only a little. Are there any good feats to help with leadership?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 06:41 PM
Consider the Divine Bard variant to cast Prot from Evil as a Divine spell. Take the Mounted Combat feat. Dip into Sacred Exorcist PRC for Turn Undead. Go PRC Prestige Paladin Variant from UA/SRD for 3 levels for most Paladin bennies at the cost of a Spellcasting level.

This is how you break it in FRCS as a Paladin of Azuth or Mystra take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat from Champions of Valor:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sword_of_the_Arcane_Order,CV

Roderick_BR
2008-02-06, 10:54 PM
For a paladin, Warpriest (Defenders of the Faith, 3.0) is better than the Warmaster.
But a crusader is still better. Get several Devoted Spirit and White Raven maneuvers, where the more people at your side, the better, and make your DM cry. 8 allies? You'll be able to destroy most enemies with it.

Alternatively, you could ask your DM to allow you to use a marshall's auras in place of your aura of courage and the remove diseases ability (make that an actual spell for the paladin). That's one idea I've been toying with.

SilentNight
2008-02-06, 11:07 PM
Make sure to snag that bard crystal weapon ability from Song and Silence I think. For 18,000gp your bardic effects continue for 10 rounds after you stop playing.

RTGoodman
2008-02-06, 11:56 PM
Alternatively, you could ask your DM to allow you to use a marshall's auras in place of your aura of courage and the remove diseases ability (make that an actual spell for the paladin). That's one idea I've been toying with.


If your DM would allow it, I've got a Paladin variant (see my signature) that loses spellcasting and gains auras like a Marshal. With your low Wis, you'll not be casting Paladin spells any, so that might be a better option for you, and fits the flavor of your character much better. I haven't had a chance to playtest it yet, but I don't think it seems unbalanced (if it's too powerful, I guess you could cut remove disease).

If that doesn't work for you (or if your DM won't allow homebrew stuff), maybe check out the Paladin variant in Complete Champion - it loses spellcasting, but it gains fighter bonus feats at certain levels (though I don't remember how many).

Aerogoat
2008-02-07, 12:03 AM
Make sure to snag that bard crystal weapon ability from Song and Silence I think. For 18,000gp your bardic effects continue for 10 rounds after you stop playing. You can get that as a +1 enhancement (called 'Harmonizing') in the MIC.

SilentNight
2008-02-07, 09:22 AM
Thanks, I couldn't remember what it was specifically.

playswithfire
2008-02-07, 10:52 AM
You can get that as a +1 enhancement (called 'Harmonizing') in the MIC.

Also in the MIC is the crystal echoblade (+1 longsword that does extra damage equal to half your bard level when you're singing. For a multiclass build, I'd say it does half of the combine levels that stack for the inspire courage bonus, since that's what's powering it, but that's just me)

So a Harmonizing crystal echoblade's something like 10-12k