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CrowSpawn
2008-02-06, 12:42 PM
First thread I've ever done, so I'll try to make it good.

I am currently playing in a campaign called The Drow War, created by Mongoose Publishing. The Campaign is released in three books, each book encompassing ten levels. So one of these books is epic 21-30. When I first saw this, I was terribly excited. I have been playing Third Edition since it came out and I have never ever played in, or DMed an epic level game. When I knew I would eventually go epic, there was only one class choice I knew I had to do: Wizard. The very idea of creating my very own epic spells had me shivering for joy. I couldn't wait.

Six months later, we finally arrive at the fabled and very anticipated "Third Book."

And just for clarity, my 20th level build was: Wizard6/Recaster5/Incantrix 9. (I am aware Recaster is a changling class, my DM ok'd it for my human character) I am a Meta-magic spell spewing God among men. The Drow didn't stand a chance. ;)

So we begin the Third Book, and I have been frustrated and unhappy since it began.

First I discover that most epic spells have spellcraft DC's so atrociously high that even with my skill focused and synergy'd spellcraft of 36, I would never achieve such cool spells as Hellball (and a few others whose name escapes me). At best, even with epic skill focus, my spellcraft will only achieve a 48 + whatever my final Int bonus will be. Did you see that? A spellcraft of possibly high 50's? I can scarcely conceive of such a thing, and yet it is still too low. How utterly disappointing.

Let's talk about my real beef: Epic Monsters.

Ever since this epic game has started, I have been consistently and frustratingly useless. Every monster we face has a SR so high that I can almost never succeed against it. Last night I fought Paragon Gargoyles. Their SR was higher than what I could achieve on a natural 20. They were essentially immune to me. How about touch attacks with no SR you say? Wonderful! I'll try that. *rolls a 19 plus touch attack!* Misses touch AC. What? So I have to roll a natural 20 there too? *cries*

Then there's the times, those miraculous interventions of God, when I do penetrate spell resistance. Oh finally! It will work! But wait, wait! All of this monster's saves are higher than 30! .... But.. but... my 10th level slots (yes I have them) have DC's of 28..! Why, he can only fail on a natural 1! *throws a fit*

How about my stats? I have an AC 36 regularly, and saves of Fort+17, Ref+15, and Will+22. Are you seeing those? That is ridiculous. I have never seen a wizard with saves so high. And yet I have them. And yet...

Every monster has an attack rating of 40-60+. So my high wizard AC means absolutely balls. How about that monsters spell-like abilities? Is that a DC 40? What what? :smallfurious: But! But I can hardly make that! And they're ALL like that??

So bottom line is, I'm a meta-magic battle mage who can't succeed on spells, and my resistances are so abysmal that even a CR 19 Paragon Gargoyle can hit on anything but a 1. And even with a spellcraft so stupid it feels weird even rolling the d20, I will never achieve any really cool epic spells that I wanted.

Did I do something wrong? Am I built wrong? Is this a legitimate problem for other epic level wizards? Or is this campaign really playing too strong? I feel like a 5th level wizard trying to affect a Balor. It just isn't happening.

For those of you who actually read my ridiculously long tirade, please tell me what the deal is. Comments, questions, ideas. Anything. It would really be appreciated.

And again, sorry for the length. I needed to get all that out.
Thanks.

Frosty
2008-02-06, 12:47 PM
Perhaps you should realize that you have a party to back you up. Those things with uber SR might be better-handled by the shock-trooper frenzied berserker who is optimized to hit high AC enemies.

Shishnarfne
2008-02-06, 12:51 PM
Alright, a few quick hints:
First, Spellcraft DCs: try to find ways to lower DCs either by adding XP cost, getting help, etc.
Second, buy (or craft) custom magic items to boost your spellcraft... alot.
Spell resistance: prepare the spell Assay Resistance from the Spell Compendium. It is your friend, your good friend.
Touch attacks: Time to boost your Dex, it would appear. Also, Quickened True Strike. Alternative: have a friend, Summoned Monster, Bigby's Hand, or Tentacles grapple 'em to knock down their touch AC. Also, if they don't know where you are (Improved Invisibility), they lose their Dex to AC. That might help.
Save DCs: Well, if your ninth level spells have a 28 DC, have you Wish-boosted/tomed/Magic Itemed your Int up as far as possible?
15 base +5 levels +6 Headband +4 Wishboost/tome=30, which should be a DC 29 ninth level spell...
Also, negative energy makes it harder for foes to make saving throws... Enervation and the like, once you get past SR and touch AC dish out hefty penalties on saves after awhile... and the only save that they allow is against it being permanent.

My little hints, some of which derive from my one Epic-level campaign, more of which derive from my brother's complaints about an Epic Psion.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-02-06, 12:51 PM
Well your spellcraft can be boosted by an item, items usually give crazy boosts to skills so that should fix your problem.

On the other points, I think you might have done something wrong with your equipment, it could help to post your build here.

The first thing you should forget is relying on AC, it'll never be good, it's better to go for miss-chance and DR.

sonofzeal
2008-02-06, 01:09 PM
Well your spellcraft can be boosted by an item, items usually give crazy boosts to skills so that should fix your problem.

On the other points, I think you might have done something wrong with your equipment, it could help to post your build here.

The first thing you should forget is relying on AC, it'll never be good, it's better to go for miss-chance and DR.
+1

Items - pick up a Shard (universal psionic item, so anyone can use it) of Spellcraft +10. Single use, but only costs 1,000 gp. Or, buy a permanent Crystal Mask of Spellcraft for 10,000. Or, team up with friends.

AC is a funny thing; at high levels, there's a relatively narrow range where if you're below that it doesn't matter, and if you're above that you're invincible. Generally speaking, AC helps everyone at low levels, but after lvl10/15 you have to decide if you want to go for broke (in which case you need to aim for the 50's or so by lvl20), or exit the arms race before you burn too much gold and item slots into it. Here's a hint: Wizards and other people without heavy armor are usually going to lag substantially in the AC arms race. Miss chance especially is just as useful at lvl5 as it is as lvl25.

Other than that, try playing Batman. Fighting directly isn't working, so fight indirectly. Use spells like Forcewall to control the battlefield, Polymorph the fighter, cast Invisibility on the healbot, Disintegrate the floor under the enemy, summon in Elder Elementals, etc. Win by manipulating events so your TEAM wins, not by showing off your mighty magic skills.

sonofzeal
2008-02-06, 01:10 PM
(sorry, double post)

Thinker
2008-02-06, 01:13 PM
Caster level is also one of the easiest things to boost in DnD.

Artanis
2008-02-06, 01:22 PM
Just looking at the epic spells in the SRD, there's spells with Spellcraft DCs over three hundred. Even without ever having played Epic, I can tell that that means they balanced them around the assumption that the caster has an utterly ridiculous collection of Spellcraft-boosting items or spell effects or whatnot.

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-06, 01:31 PM
Epic Spells: Lower the DC by burning XP/taking damage/adding minions/whatever.

Epic SR: Yup. Sucks.

Epic Touch AC: Also sucks. Boost your hit chances with Quickened True Strikes or other +AB spells. And boost your DEX as high as it can go.

Epic Saves: Ironically.. Blasting is better than save-or-lose in Epic. Because saves consistently get higher with each epic hit die. You will lose if you continue focusing on save-or-die in Epic.

Swordguy
2008-02-06, 01:35 PM
Try building custom magic items. A +20 1/day use-activated item boosting spellcraft checks should be pretty cheap, and you shouldn't have to roll more than 1 spellcraft check a day when trying to get those epic spells.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-06, 01:36 PM
For Epic casting rethink what you're using it for, It's real game-breakingly overpoweredness is when you work up stuff with stacked reductions in spellcraft DC outside of combat and either make permenant changes to yourself/environment or even better instantaneous ones.

Check out the candlekeep conpendium online, the one with Shaaan the serpent queen for a suitably cheesey use, she built a permenant spellward for herself that relects all targetted spells of 9th level and below, it can't be dispelled by less than epic magic and it never runs out of turning. She effectively made herself immune to direct castings, and picked up a reputation for being unbelievably hard in mage duels. If that doesn't appeal try specing up a "Create Minion" spell that turns a cabbage into an uber-monster totally loyal to you, make it's effects permenant and then spam that for a few days. Spells like the hellball and epic time duplicate are frankly rubbish compared to what metamagic can give you so don't try to use them in a fight. but the backlash and +10 minutes to casting and even the xp costs are all fine on long duration buffs that you can set or contingent effects to keep you safe.

If SR is troubling you write up an epic spell that degrades SR of all hostile critters within a set distance of you, over a period of X rounds they accrue minusses to SR until it's eaten, that shouldn't even be that high a power.

Make sure you read through the LNG to batman builds, it's all appropriate only more so, go for the cripple shot not the hp kill.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-06, 01:53 PM
Your an Incantatrix and your Spellcraft check only hits 60 in epic? My god. I have an incantatrix that hits 60 at level 18. And thats before I use Moment of Prescience to get +20 on the check.

---
But anyways. There are 2 basic approaches to epic casting

First up: Rituals
You create an Epic Spell that permanently summons a Couatl.
The DC pre mitigation is 150 (30x5).
Increase the Casting time to 10 minutes (-18).
Increase the Casting time by 86 days (-132).
The spell now is free to create and has a final DC of 0.

The Draw back of this spell is the time required. If you have used arcane genesis to get your own personal demiplane with a much faster time trait that isn't really a problem but otherwise I recommend the following:
Hire 15 level 9 casters to sacrifice 1 5th level spell slot per casting. And keep the 10 minute casting time. At level 21 you should be able to cast 2 Epic Spells per day.

So day 1 you hire 15 level 9 casters and gain 2 Couatl's (which cast as level 9 clerics meaning 5th level spell slots).
Day 2 you hire 13 casters and gain 2 more Couatl's. And so on. By day 8 you don't need to hire any more casters.

Repeat the above until you have 30 Couatl's (so 15 days worth of casting).

Now you make your next epic spell. This is like the one above but permanently summons a solar instead of a Couatl. You need 30 Couatl's to mitigate the DC down to 0 with a 10 minute casting time.

Every 10 days of summoned solars allows you to mitigate away another 340 points of the spell craft DC. After 30 days you can mitigate away 1,290 points of the spell craft DC.


Now make whatever spells you want and mitigate away the costs. Permanent buffs are very nice.

-----------
The other way (thats less cheap) is to make Fortify Intelligence spells and just stack them (you get +1 spell craft for every 2 points of Intelligence).

---------------
Now let's assume that you did the ritual thing.

Some good spells are the following:
Immunity to all Spells:
DC 970 pre mitigation (use the Ward seed and don't choose the radius option). This includes immunity to all epic spells as well.
Resistance to all Normal attacks:
DC 1,290 pre mitigation (again using the ward seed). This gives you resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage of 125 points per turn.
Sonic Bolt:
DC 1,290 Pre mitigation. This uses the energy seed and gives you the spell like ability to create a Sonic Bolt that deals 633d6 damage (range 300 feet, reflex half) at will. But we only need 300d6 damage. Which allows us to add 312 to our caster level check to beat SR and change those d6's to d20's.
Epic Armor:
Use the armor seed and you can gain +24 AC of one of the nice types (Deflection, Luck, Divine, Profane, insight, etc). Get a few different versions (1 for each type) and you can end up with an AC of 120 just from this spell.


Those are just some ideas.

But the real power comes with the Origin of the Species spells. You make a creature that can breed in like 5 seconds and that has every possible ability you can think of as an Ex ability, including the ability to instantaneously mind switch with 1 willing person. You then make it extra specially loyal to you and order the mind switch. All the sudden you are in a body that makes the gods whimper in fear. Although for the really good ones you need to be able to mitigate a DC of around 20,000.

------------------------
No I am not suggesting that you actually go out and use Epic magic like this but that is how you do the uber broken Epic casting. And even this stuff (besides the Origin of the Species) pales beside some of the stuff you can do (I have moved stars around before.).

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-06, 02:07 PM
Yon mighty Cosmic Descryer, which, as one of the best Epic casters, you really should be choosing, can also crank out infinite caster level spells - works very well with, say, Holy Word, or indeed any CL-uncapped spell.

LotharBot
2008-02-06, 02:59 PM
Some thoughts:

1) Remember, the game is a cooperative venture between the players and the DM. You're expected to be at similar power levels to the other players, and to be able to competently combat the monsters that are around. The things Tippy describes put you way outside of the appropriate power level (as he says at the end of his post.) You might be able to use some of his tricks in lesser ways to create more appropriate powers, though. Also, the DM should hold up his end of the bargain by giving you appropriate challenges, which brings us to...

2) Being in epic doesn't mean you should only be fighting stuff out of the ELH that has SR 40+. There are still plenty of epic monsters that have only minor SR, and plenty of non-epic monsters that can be advanced to epic. If you're only fighting things with absurd SR, either your DM or the module is doing something wrong.

3) For the occasional high SR monster, look into spells like "Assay Spell Resistance", and pick up as many caster levels as you can from items. Also use your spells to manipulate the environment instead of your opponent -- he might save against disintegrate, but the floor underneath him won't. He might be able to resist or save against most of your spells, but not be able to break through a wall of force or even a wall of iron.

4) Some of the book's Epic Spells have intentionally crazy-high DC's. They're meant to give you some idea as to what could be done if you kept playing to extremely high levels and used all sorts of rituals and so on. You can create pretty cool epic spells with much lower DC's. Use mitigating factors to bring DC's down, and use items (not valuable epic feats!) to bring your skill checks up.

5) Similar to Assay Spell Resistance... use (quickened, if you don't have it houseruled to be a swift action already) True Strike when you need to land a touch attack.

6) In epic, everything saves. Save-or-suck spells aren't so effective any more unless you can cast multiple spells at the same creature targeting its weakest save. If you hit it 4 times and it needs to roll a 4 or lower, chances are it'll blow one of them. This means Multispell is your friend. (Twin Spell and Split Ray are also nice.) My epic party doesn't have a wizard right now, but our cleric casts 4-5 spells every single round -- buffs, debuffs, save-or-sucks, save-and-still-sucks, you name it. With an amulet of second chances, she can make something save or die 8 times in a round. It'll get really sick when she picks up a pair of auto-quicken feats at level 27.

7) Remember, you do have a party with you. There are things you can cast that make them more effective. This includes dispelling combat protections, giving buffs, grappling foes with Bigby spells, even casting benign transposition or dimension door to get someone across the battlefield quickly. And there are things they can do to help you. If your hasted rogue dual-wields wounding shattermantle shortswords, he can drop an enemy's CON by 7 every round and SR by 14 (the SR loss resets at the start of his next turn.) All of a sudden your fort-save-or-suck spells are going to work better.

Hopefully this gives you something to go on.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-06, 03:40 PM
Just Because:

Star Creation
Conjuration (Creation)
Spellcraft DC: 0 (pre-mitigation 4.98713723x10^29)
Components:[b] V, S
[b]Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 5 ft.
Effect: One Sol like star
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

To Develop: 0 gp; 0 days; 0 XP. Seed: conjure (DC 21) Factors: increase volume of matter created to 4.98713723x10^28 cubic feet (+9.97427446x10^28 DC), Suppressible By Caster (+2 DC), Permanent (x5 DC) Mitigating factor: 2.93361014x10^28 casters sacrificing a 9th level spell slot.

This spell creates a Sol type star. The caster can suppress or restart it at will.


So to get that many solars at 2 per day would take 40,186.4403 billion trillion years. But luckily we don't have to wait that long.

After 30 days of summoning you have enough solars to create a spell that summons 11 solars at a time. So after another 30 days that is 11,200 more you can mitigate away. This allows you to make another spell that summons 112 Solars per casting. So after another 30 days (day 105 since you summoned your first Couatl) that is 114,240 more to mitigate away. This allows another spell that summons 1,149 Solars per casting. So after another 30 days that is 1,171,980 more you can mitigate away. Repeat until you get enough solars.

Roughly you get 10 times as many Solars every 30 days. So to get enough solars to make a star takes about 28 months, or a 2.33 years.

But if you really want ot get in the habit of creating stars then you should use origin of the species to give the star creation ability to a creature as an Ex ability usable at will. Getting enough solars for this will take about 13 years. But with everything else you want to add to yourself lets call it 15 years.


-----
So 15 years after getting Epic Casting you can create Solar Systems at will. I still haven't figured out the numbers for a dyson sphere yet though. Maybe later.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-06, 03:46 PM
Just Because:

Star Creation
Conjuration (Creation)
Spellcraft DC: 0 (pre-mitigation 4.98713723x10^29)
Components:[b] V, S
[b]Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 5 ft.
Effect: One Sol like star
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

To Develop: 0 gp; 0 days; 0 XP. Seed: conjure (DC 21) Factors: increase volume of matter created to 4.98713723x10^28 cubic feet (+9.97427446x10^28 DC), Suppressible By Caster (+2 DC), Permanent (x5 DC) Mitigating factor: 2.93361014x10^28 casters sacrificing a 9th level spell slot.

This spell creates a Sol type star. The caster can suppress or restart it at will.


So to get that many solars at 2 per day would take 40,186.4403 billion trillion years. But luckily we don't have to wait that long.

After 30 days of summoning you have enough solars to create a spell that summons 11 solars at a time. So after another 30 days that is 11,200 more you can mitigate away. This allows you to make another spell that summons 112 Solars per casting. So after another 30 days (day 105 since you summoned your first Couatl) that is 114,240 more to mitigate away. This allows another spell that summons 1,149 Solars per casting. So after another 30 days that is 1,171,980 more you can mitigate away. Repeat until you get enough solars.

Roughly you get 10 times as many Solars every 30 days. So to get enough solars to make a star takes about 28 months, or a 2.33 years.

But if you really want ot get in the habit of creating stars then you should use origin of the species to give the star creation ability to a creature as an Ex ability usable at will. Getting enough solars for this will take about 13 years. But with everything else you want to add to yourself lets call it 15 years.


-----
So 15 years after getting Epic Casting you can create Solar Systems at will. I still haven't figured out the numbers for a dyson sphere yet though. Maybe later.

Tippy! :smallsigh: :smallamused:

Will giant moons made out of Iridium orbit this star?

nargbop
2008-02-06, 03:54 PM
Quadruple post? Someone's excited :smallbiggrin:

The standard epic spells are terrifically difficult for a 24th-level wizard to cast . You have to use the epic spell-creation rules to lower the Spellcraft DC , by making it a ritual (cast over many days) and by incorporating the help of lesser spellcasters (who contribute a number of their high spell slots). There are other methods which are less attractive, like backlash (take damage) and XP loss (good god why?).

Depending on how friendly your DM is, you can stack item bonusses from a Crystal Mask, a custom ioun stone, certain spells ... D&D's official rules are that you can't stack bonusses with similar types ( wearing an item with a +5 luck bonus and other +3 luck bonus gives you a +5, NOT a +8 ). If you have a munchkin-friendly DM, he'll let you stack bonusses as well as develop your own items for further increasing yourr Spellcraft.

Triaxx
2008-02-06, 05:27 PM
Stop trying to fight head on. Even if you're blasting, you need simply massive amounts of damage to keep up with a fighter, and attacking the opponent directly isn't going to work. Remember that an Epic wizard has a wider choice of targets. Fighting a Paragon Gargoyle? Use your magic and knock a tree on him. Fighting underground? Knock a stalactite onto it's head.

Wizards fight in the box, Epic Wizards fight outside the box. (Sorcerors stick you inside the box and jump on it.)

Tippy: Yes, isn't it fun to get Epic magic and have a chance to turn it on the DM once in a while? Like rearranging the night sky so his fleet crashes into the rocky shoreline.

Or better still, combining an Epic Benign Transposition and Control Winds to send his boat sailing off in another direction.

Triaxx
2008-02-06, 05:30 PM
Sorry about that, I have a very slightly retarded computer. It posts but waits several minutes to tell me it's done so. Plus I have dial-up.:smallfurious:

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-06, 05:34 PM
In one game I moved a good thousand stars around and sped up the speed of light just so I could spell out words in stars.

Greatest Marriage proposal ever.

Mewtarthio
2008-02-06, 05:41 PM
In one game I moved a good thousand stars around and sped up the speed of light just so I could spell out words in stars.

Greatest Marriage proposal ever.

"What is you want, Mary? What do you want? You want the moon? Just say the word, and I'll cast a custom Epic Spell and rearrange the entire night sky!"

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-06, 05:44 PM
"What is you want, Mary? What do you want? You want the moon? Just say the word, and I'll cast a custom Epic Spell and rearrange the entire night sky!"

To be fair I was proposing to a godess. I didn't think something simple like taking her out to dinner would make the proper impression.

That was a fun game. ECL 50 and we were all wizards or clerics. Baseball with planets was a good sport as well.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-02-06, 05:54 PM
I am currently playing in a campaign called The Drow War, created by Mongoose Publishing. The Campaign is released in three books, each book encompassing ten levels. So one of these books is epic 21-30. When I first saw this, I was terribly excited. I have been playing Third Edition since it came out and I have never ever played in, or DMed an epic level game. When I knew I would eventually go epic, there was only one class choice I knew I had to do: Wizard. The very idea of creating my very own epic spells had me shivering for joy. I couldn't wait.
As a preamble, I'd like to point out that nothing in any book suggests that you can't create your own non-epic spells. The only difference in epic play is that the ELH goes out of its way to encourage custom spell creation.



I discover that most epic spells have spellcraft DC's so atrociously high that even with my skill focused and synergy'd spellcraft of 36, I would never achieve such cool spells as Hellball (and a few others whose name escapes me). At best, even with epic skill focus, my spellcraft will only achieve a 48 + whatever my final Int bonus will be. Did you see that? A spellcraft of possibly high 50's? I can scarcely conceive of such a thing, and yet it is still too low. How utterly disappointing.
To be blunt, the ELH is rubbish and the Epic Spellcasting is the toxic waste of the landfill. Among epic players it is a commonly known fact that epic spellcasting's only useful purpose is to create stupidly long lasting buff spells and one or two other niche spell types. Any epic spell that deals damage is a waste of gold and XP because such spells are much easier to use as meta'd non epic spells.



since this epic game has started, I have been consistently and frustratingly useless. Every monster we face has a SR so high that I can almost never succeed against it. Last night I fought Paragon Gargoyles. Their SR was higher than what I could achieve on a natural 20. They were essentially immune to me. How about touch attacks with no SR you say? Wonderful! I'll try that. *rolls a 19 plus touch attack!* Misses touch AC. What? So I have to roll a natural 20 there too? *cries*
Yeah, epic monsters are just not very well thought out. Any epic DM should really be tailoring his monsters to his PCs' abilities.



monster has an attack rating of 40-60+. So my high wizard AC means absolutely balls. How about that monsters spell-like abilities? Is that a DC 40? What what? :smallfurious: But! But I can hardly make that! And they're ALL like that??
Well to be fair high level AC isn't supposed to stop anything, it's only supposed to prevent massive Power Attack usage. But again, epic monsters and epic play in general is poorly thought out.


those of you who actually read my ridiculously long tirade, please tell me what the deal is. Comments, questions, ideas. Anything. It would really be appreciated.
I have come up with my own epic rules based on my experience with epic play; to play in epic under standard rules you basically have to be a power gamer, which I don't like. If you're interested I can provide you and your DM with them.

Nowhere Girl
2008-02-06, 05:56 PM
I think the big problem with epic magic is that it's either prohibitively difficult to use (as the original poster feels) ... or you cheat like mad -- technically within the rules but cheesing horribly, as Tippy showed us how to do. Post-Tippy cheese, epic magic is now useful, yes. Brokenly useful. Basically cheating. The game, for all meaningful purposes, is over ... or at least it's over for everyone save the wizard PC and any wizard NPCs.

So your choices with epic magic are either:

A. It sucks.

B. It's godlike. You either completely break the game, or the DM smites your character and throws away the sheet. Either way, no one wants to play with you anymore because it's hard to enjoy a game in which no one but the wizard matters.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-06, 05:57 PM
As far as AC goes, that's not your thing as a wizard. I recommend keeping and ironguard spell prepared (SpC). Granted, it's not going to protect you from things with natural attacks (unless they have metal claws) but it doesn't matter how epic they and their sword are, metal of any sort -- magical or otherwise -- can't do a thing to you with ironguard up.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 05:57 PM
"What is you want, Mary? What do you want? You want the moon? Just say the word, and I'll cast a custom Epic Spell and rearrange the entire night sky!"

You are not allowed to put Jimmy Stewart into a D&D game ever again.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-06, 06:02 PM
You are not allowed to put Jimmy Stewart into a D&D game ever again.

Personally I love the idea of playing the Red Dwarf crew when they started playing pool with planets to block up a white hole. If you're gonna rearrainge the sky at least do it for cheap laughs rather than to get laid :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-06, 06:08 PM
Personally I love the idea of playing the Red Dwarf crew when they started playing pool with planets to block up a white hole. If you're gonna rearrainge the sky at least do it for cheap laughs rather than to get laid :smallbiggrin:

Oh, the whole party was rearranging the multiverse on a whim. One of the other PC's was using planets as the material component for one of his spells. I mean we were partying with the gods every night and Boccob would come over to ask advice for spells he was making.

When you are playing ECL 50 with 4 gestalt wizards who were encouraged to power game and optimize to their hearts content nothing was a real threat. We spent most of our time RPing outrageously random **** and having fun/funny competitions.

Indon
2008-02-06, 06:09 PM
Like rearranging the night sky so his fleet crashes into the rocky shoreline.

Some of them should've jumped into the tidal pools. :P

But, yeah, you can crazy cheese out your epic magic, so long as your DM doesn't notice that any epic magic you design explicitly requires his approval (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm#Approval).

If you can squeeze past that, you're gravy. Otherwise, you'll have to work with your DM to develop spells that are potent, but not overly so. If a specific epic spell you want to design is too weak to bother with without excessive cheese, tell your DM and see if you can't get it more in line with the power you should have.

Voyager_I
2008-02-06, 06:36 PM
Oh, the whole party was rearranging the multiverse on a whim. One of the other PC's was using planets as the material component for one of his spells. I mean we were partying with the gods every night and Boccob would come over to ask advice for spells he was making.

When you are playing ECL 50 with 4 gestalt wizards who were encouraged to power game and optimize to their hearts content nothing was a real threat. We spent most of our time RPing outrageously random **** and having fun/funny competitions.

So basically, you were godlike beings that hadn't gotten around to using Origin of Species to create your own races of worshipers in your personal demiplanes yet?

If you want to know what I'd do with godlike power, go read the short story Sandkings. Minus the part where he's a complete twit and gets himself eaten.

osyluth
2008-02-06, 06:46 PM
There's probably a magic item out there that boosts your Spellcraft to check to the insane levels required.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-06, 06:51 PM
So basically, you were godlike beings that hadn't gotten around to using Origin of Species to create your own races of worshipers in your personal demiplanes yet?
No, we had already done that.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-06, 06:52 PM
Basically, if you can't effect them...effect yourself and your allies. Effect the world and environment.

earth to mud, grease, true strike, summon 'blah', dig, walls, anti magic, dispells, buffs, rapid transport, illusions that mask people, flight, reverse gravity...anything.

Remember...a monster may be able to shrug off 100d6 fireballs flung from your fingertips...but they can't do a damn thing about you ripping a giant hole in the ground that fills with natural lava...nor can they do anything about the lava ball you telekinetically throw into the space they occupy...splashing EVERYTHING in the vicinity.

For spellcraft...you need an item that grants +10 to your check...there are some...spells can give some bonus to skills as well I think...and an int of 30 MINIMUM!. That alone should get you to around 50 and making check at 60 reliably. Think small at first. Long term buffs cast as hour long rituals for you and your party...summoned dragons...then think of some wacky effects.

What about forcecage?

tyckspoon
2008-02-06, 07:06 PM
It's been mentioned in passing, but the first Epic Spell you should make is a 40-hour duration Fortify to improve your casting stat. Looks something like-

Fortify, Enhancement bonus to Intelligence.
Factors: 100% increase in duration, +2 Spellcraft.
Mitigating: Touch range changed to Personal, -2 Spellcraft.
Increased casting time: 10 minutes, -20 Spellcraft.
Fortify is a base DC of 17, so you're starting at a -3 Spellcraft check. Now add Int bonuses at +1 point of Int/2 Spellcraft DC until you have gone as high as you can reliably get by taking 10 (alternately, as high as you can pay for. It might be worth converting some magic items to ready cash for this.) You should be able to get to at least +20 or so without really trying; higher is of course better.

Benefits:
Your casting stat is now increased by probably better than half. Your spell DCs just went up by +10 or more. Your Spellcraft check did too, so you can use the buff to cast more difficult Epic spells. The buff lasts nearly two full days, so it's in effect when you prep spells, which means more bonus spells. And if you want to be cheesy about it, you can develop better versions of the same spell and use your Int-enhanced Spellcraft modifier to cast them too. Or create versions that use different bonus types to stack, although the Spellcraft DCs on those increase much faster so you won't get as much benefit.

CrowSpawn
2008-02-06, 08:37 PM
First off, thanks for all the replies. I do appreciate.

It seems I have should have clarified better just exactly how this game gets run. Our DM severely detests power games and cheesy cheating effects. I agree with him. So no moving the stars spells. :smallamused: Also, while we were allowed to choose all kinds of non-core classes and feats, he did ask that we limit ourselves to primarily core spells only, with just the fewest of exceptions. So no assay resistance and many of the others spells some have suggested I try. We have also been asked to limit ourselves equipment-wise, again, with just the fewest of exceptions. So no crazy uber magic item compendium equipment.

The reason for these restrictions is that The Drow War pulls only from the SRD. There aren't any Psionics, special feats, no warlocks or swashbucklers, not even mind flayers and beholders (I guess they're too iconic?). So PC's who do pull from such sources can (and we have) ended up much more effective than the books may have wanted us to be (we seriously womped on some Drow hardcore -.-).

I realize that every epic game (rather like every non-epic game) gets run differently, so there will be different tactics that some suggest that I can, or cannot do. The closest people seem to be coming is the "buff the party and affect the battlefield" idea which, in this game and in my position, are the mostly likely options I can take.

As someone mentioned, perhaps it might be good to some if I post my build (and perhaps my future ideas) here for some to pore over and really scrutinize what my wizard is all about. So here's the gruff:

We have reached Level 21. Our party includes:
Fighter 21, Dragon Shaman 21, Wizard 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer 15, my Wizard6/Recaster5/Incantrix10, and a Bard with levels in some luck prestige class and bard enhancing prestige class (never really looked at his character).

I am:

CALER CALLAIN
male human Wizard 6/Recaster 5/Incantrix 10; AL NG
Init +5 (+10 with dragon shaman's senses aura); Senses listen +1 (or +6), Spot +16 (or +21).
Languages common, elven, draconic, dwarven, drow(or undercommon)
_______
AC 30 (+8 bracers, +5 dex, +3 ring, +4 persistent shield), touch 18, flat 25
hp 163 (21 HD)
Resist Fire 10 (ring)
Fort +17, Ref +15, Will +22
_______
Speed 40ft (boots)
Melee (nothing special)
Ranged ranged touch +15 (for spells)
BAB +10/+5, Grapple +10
Attack Options free still or silent- 5/day, free empower- 5/day, free quicken (and reduce duration to 1 round)- 3/day, free maximize- 5/day, free shaping- 5/day [you may not apply more than one of the above free metamagics]. Instant Metamagic- 2/day, Snatch Spell, Cooperative Spellcasting, Metamagic Effects, Metamagic Spelltrigger, Seize Concentration, Improved Metamagic
Wizard Spells CL20th, base DC 18 + spell level, *=spell slot granted by unique magic item, prohibited school: necromancy (required for Incantrix); special note: Imporved Metamagic Ability allows me to treat metamagics as 1 slot less costing (to a minimum of 1)
10- * Heightened (7th) Quicken Cold Chain Lightning (DC 25), Quicken Power Word Blind, Quicken Twin Force Orb, Twin Delayed Blast Fireball (1 cold, DM permission) (DC 25)
9- * Time Stop, Power Word Kill, Meteor Swarm (DC 27), Cold Meteor Swarm (DC 27), Gate, Foresight, Twin Disintegrate (DC 24)
8- * Mind Blank, Power Word Stun, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Polar Ray, Twin Cloudkill (DC 23), Prismatic Wall, Quickened Empowered Force Orb
7- * Delay Blast Fireball, Spell Turning, Power Word Blind, Greater Teleport, Quicken Dimension Door, Quicken Force Orb, Cold Delay Blast Fireball
6- * Greater Dispel magic, Legend Lore, Chain Lightning, Cold Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Quicken Cure Serious Wounds (gained by Recaster), Quicken Mass Resist Energy, Persistent Shield
5- * Telekinesis, Break Enchantment, Wall of Force, Planar Tolerance, Cone of Cold x2, Cloudkill, Empowered Maximized Touch of Idiocy
4- * Dimension Door, Restoration (gained by recaster), Force Orb x2, Stoneskin, Fire Shield, Greater Invisiblity, Twin Magic Missile
3- * Fly, Displacement x2, Slow, Mass Resist Energy, Cure Serious Wounds (gained by recaster), Invisibility Sphere, Nondetection
2- * Knock, Glitterdust, See Invisibility, Darkvision, Scorching Ray, Touch of Idiocy, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Empowered Magic Missile
1- * Magic Missile, Magic Missile x2, True Strike, Featherfall x2, Grease, Alarm, Tenser's Floating Disk
___________
Str 10 (+0), Dex 20 (+5), Con 20 (+5), Int 27 (+8), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 10 (+0)
Feats (by level gained, B=bonus feat) 1 scribe scroll(B), 1 Collegiate Wizard, 1 Skill Focus Spellcraft, 3 Extend Spell, 5 Empower Spell(B), 6 Spell Penetration, 7 Eschew materials(B), 9 Maximize Spell, 12 Iron Will, 12 Quicken Spell(B), 15 Greater Spell Penetration, 15 Twin Spell(B), 18 Great Fortitude, 18 Persisent Spell(B), 21 Improved Spell Capacity(epic), 21 Energy Substitution (Cold)(B)
Skills concentration +29, craft(woodworking) +12, decipher script +18, heal +16, knowledge(arcana) +32, knowledge(dungeoneering) +17, knowledge(history) +17, knowledge(local) +17, knowledge(planes) +32, knowledge(religion) +16, sense motive +20, spellcraft +37, spot +16 (+21)
_________
equipment: staff of Nuith (grants extra spell slot at each spell level, adds +11 to Int for purposes of determining bonus spells only) [unique to game], headband of intellect +6, gloves of dexterity +4, bracers of armor +8, amulet of health +4, vest of resistance +4, ring of protection +3, ring of minor fire resistance, boots of striding and springing, crystal ball of scrying (with detect thoughts), Nightwatch (sentient +4 ghost touch dagger, ego 15, AL CN, darkvision 120 ft., listen +12, spot +12, purpose: slay non-spellcasters = crushing despair, will save DC 16), diamond dust (2500 g.p. worth), ruby dust (3800 g.p. worth), tablet of Let Go Of Me (awaiting feat Epic Spellcasting), tablet of Peripety (awaiting feat Epic Spellcasting), scroll of spider climb (CL 3rd), scroll of evard's back tentacles (CL 7th), scroll of antimagic field (CL 11th), scroll of true seeing (CL 11th), scroll of prismatic wall (CL 15th), scroll of mordenkainen's disjunction (CL 17th), scroll of prismatic sphere (CL 17th)

.
.
.
And that is about it. My ideas for future feats include epic spell penetration (I just have to :smallfrown: ), epic spellcasting, epic skill focus, multispell, automatic quicken spell (later on), and perhaps even an epic Great Fortitude.

For those of you who actually read all that nonsense, please critique my build and let me know just what you thought was good and what you thought I wasted time on, and perhaps a better spell selection?

And finally, if you have any more thoughts on the epic levels in general, please voice them. I'd love to know how others liked or disliked the epic levels. It seems from some posts that I am not the only one who found the epic levels ridiculous and frustrating.

And, sorry for the length.
Thanks.

tyckspoon
2008-02-06, 09:03 PM
hmm. Well, Epic levels virtually demand that you cheat..er, cheese out to survive, let alone win; there's a pretty big jump between CR 20 and CR 21 enemies. It's a shame that you dropped Necromancy; Enervation, especially a heavily metamagiced Enervation, is one of the best core tools for crippling enemies, and you have a good build for taking advantage of it.

One of your high level slots should be a Persisted Greater Invisibility (and/or Blur/Blink/Displacement). That alone will mostly solve your AC problems against anything that doesn't detect Invis. It will also let you attack against their flatfooted ACs, which may help you hit things (especially if you have to fight a lot of dodgy Epic or near-Epic Drow.)

If you can get the down time and the cash to do it, Epic Spellcasting will provide an immediate and significant boost; create the Int-boosting spell I mentioned above and you'll suddenly be a lot closer to the effectiveness you enjoyed prior to Epicness. You can hit DC 57 by taking ten (60 for sum -3 mitigation), which could potentially get you +30 Int.. +24 over the benefit for your current Headband, so +12 higher DCs and a load of extra spellslots.

CrowSpawn
2008-02-06, 09:44 PM
A quick note on Persistent Spell.

The spell says that it increases a duration to 24 hours for any spell with a range of personal.

I went round and round with my DM on this. I believe it refers to spells cast on yourself personally, like casting bull's strength or displacement on just yourself. Thus, I could, perhaps, cast persistent haste, provided I do not include anyone else in the effect.

He, on the other hand, believes that Persistent Spell can only be applied to a spell that specifically reads: Range: Personal. I think thats a nitpicking load of bull-honky. There are so few spells with that range descriptor. It almost makes the feat not worth it, if its done like that.

What do you guys think? Is there an official errata about this feat? Am I right, or is he?

And on a tangential note, consider the following:

Instant Metamagic'd Persistent Time Stop.

...My DM says that if I do it, Inevitables will take me away. :smallbiggrin: It might be worth it on the final Epic Boss....

Kantur
2008-02-06, 09:51 PM
If I was DMing, I'd be tempted to rule you get only your d4+1 rounds, but it feels like 24 hours instead of 12-30 seconds....

Ok, it's not how it's meant to work, but it solves the problem nicely I feel...Though I'd probably give the wizard a Int-check to realise it won't work as they expect before they do it.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 09:51 PM
A quick note on Persistent Spell.

The spell says that it increases a duration to 24 hours for any spell with a range of personal.

I went round and round with my DM on this. I believe it refers to spells cast on yourself personally, like casting bull's strength or displacement on just yourself. Thus, I could, perhaps, cast persistent haste, provided I do not include anyone else in the effect.

He, on the other hand, believes that Persistent Spell can only be applied to a spell that specifically reads: Range: Personal. I think thats a nitpicking load of bull-honky. There are so few spells with that range descriptor. It almost makes the feat not worth it, if its done like that.

What do you guys think? Is there an official errata about this feat? Am I right, or is he?

And on a tangential note, consider the following:

Instant Metamagic'd Persistent Time Stop.

...My DM says that if I do it, Inevitables will take me away. :smallbiggrin: It might be worth it on the final Epic Boss....

A note: it is fixed or personal, not just personal, range. Any spell whose range does not change according to caster level can be persisted, including touch spells.

Time Stop technically has a duration of instantaneous and therefore cannot be persisted, according to the FAQ.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-06, 09:51 PM
You can't instant meta on a 9th level spell unless. And you can't persist Time Stop, its duration is instantaneous.

You can also persist any spell with a fixed range (touch spells for instance).

tyckspoon
2008-02-06, 09:56 PM
Every reference for Persistent Spell that I can find agrees with the previous posters- Personal or fixed, and Touch is the standard example of a fixed range. What source is your DM drawing his text from? Persistent Spell has been printed five or so times, and the text he's using may have been superseded by a more recent version.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-06, 10:02 PM
Funny, I always hear about how epic casting is supreme, and stuff. Is your non-caster party as screwed as you? Huh, a wizard that can hit an AC with only a 1? Who knew? :smalltongue:
But even mixing True Strike and Whigh (SP?) Strike you can't hit?
And remember that your character is not really powerful in the epic scale. By what you said you are what, level 21? These monsters may be higher CR, meaning that they are too powerful to be faced alone.

Bauglir
2008-02-06, 10:04 PM
There are, of course, people who argue that any spell with a range greater than Touch, say 60 ft, does not have a fixed range, merely a fixed maximum range. I disagree with this, but your DM may use that interpretation, and you may wish a counter argument (I'd use the fact that it's extraordinarily pedantic, but that apparently won't work).

AlterForm
2008-02-06, 10:46 PM
So basically, you were godlike beings that hadn't gotten around to using Origin of Species to create your own races of worshipers in your personal demiplanes yet?

If you want to know what I'd do with godlike power, go read the short story Sandkings. Minus the part where .

Actually, I think this would be a better way to do that:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/a/af/180px-Stargate_doci.jpg

Hmm, it's suprisingly difficult to find a difficult picture for the Ori.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-06, 11:01 PM
Ok...lets take a look at a few spells to research...

your stats give you a spellcraft of 25+8int+3skillFocus+2 synergy = 38. This means you can reliably cast a spell with a DC of 48 by taking 10.

Ok...

Fortify seed. It grants a +1 enhancement bonus to whatever stat for base 17 +1/+2dc, or a 'random' named bonus at base 23 +1/+6dc.

For a spell that takes 10 minutes to cast, just fine for a daily buff...that is a -20 mitigation factor right off the top. The spell is being cast on yourself and only you...so -2 again. We are at -22 for mitigation.

For an enhancement bonus spell, (this will make your +int magic item useless BTW), the max you can reliably cast this at is 17+2x-22 = 48...17+2x = 70...2x = 53...x = 22. This means that since the effect is x+1, you have a +23 buff that will last for 20 hours... plenty of time for step two.

Your previous total for int 28 likely included a magic item that provides a +6 enhancement bonus...this is now void due to the epic buff...so the net gain is +17 or an int of 45. This is a bonus of +17, so spellcraft has now increased to 25+17+3+2 = 47 with a reliable 57 for taking 10.

using the same formula as above, 17+2x-22=57...17+2x = 79...2x = 62...x = 31...for a grand total bonus of 32 with the buff...we can afford to drop a few points to get duration now...so we drop 4 pts and gain 4x duration or 80 hours. The spell now grants 22+28 = 50 int (+20 bonus) over 3 days with time to refresh the spell on the morning of the 4th. (this can be escalated ad nausium, but that is true cheese...one bump is not that bad with the cheese.

Now, we are not done yet...we now have a spellcraft of 25+20+3+2 = 50 so we can handle spells up to 60. Ok...

One more buff...this time an 'insert bonus name here' bonus. 23+6x+8(time)-22 = 60...31+6x=82...6x = 51...x=8...for a total 'insert bonus name here' bonus of +9...(can probably find a way to get it to +10 even by putting in some backlash)

so...in the end, your int should be 60 and have a +25 to your int skills and spell DC. Your spellcraft check is now 25+25+3+2 = 55 so you can tackle DC 65...

That should get you started with 'epic' buffs and such. Note that these spells can be performed by you, alone...with little to no backlash or expendature of crazy mats. Just 10 min per spell...needs to be reapplied every 4th day before noon. The other days, perhaps have spells that grant +20 bonuses to strength for your fighters (extra targets, extended duration...stuff like that). You'll get the hang of it.

Get a rod of epic spellcasting ASAP, that grants +10 to your check. For feats...invest in 'Leadership' and start a Wizard school...as part of their training in high magic, make sure that they participate in a weekly ritual to cast epic spells with you. With a good leadership score, there is no reason you can't have at least 100 1st level mages, a 17th level cohort (headmaster), and a bunch of 'elder' pupils that are 2-7th level...they can add spell levels to rites and drop the DC ALOT. This allows for long term truely epic spells/buffs that can even be permanent. Though for permanancy, you had best be looking at dropping 10,000 or so XP for an extra -100 on the check...backlash should not be a problem...but remember to cast a constitution buff on yourself to get +12 or more as a con bonus...then no matter how much backlash you take you will not die (the max you can program in is HDx2, so max damage is 12xyour HD...if your con bonus is +12...you'll have at least 1hp/level left.

Happy Casting.

Lochar
2008-02-06, 11:17 PM
Any epic spell with backlash that lasts longer than instantaneous deals backlash damage each round until the spell ends.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-06, 11:23 PM
oh...fortify can also be used for natural AC and for SR. Natural AC can be buffed just like your Int, so those numbers are the same...for SR, it is 27 for a base 25, and +4DC for each additional +1...

So...for a DC of 65, taking the -22 'standard penalty' for 10 min rituals...

27+4x-22 = 65...27+4x = 87...4x = 60...x=15...lets assume you are willing to take some backlash on this to gain some duration to the 4 day cycle...that is a total SR of 25+15 = 40.

Well...there you have it...you will be cycling out buffs to reapply every couple of days, but in the end you will have a constant supply of great buffs that are just...well...epic.

Look into permanancy for anything that can be made that way. Arcane sight, see invisibility...among others...With uber stats, you should have enough to quicken spells like true strike to get your stuff to land. If you haven't yet...do the math to get +5 permanent inherant bonuses to any stat you want to buff. Also see about using leadership to get a whole school to get permanent buffs as well...anyways...that's all for now.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-06, 11:26 PM
Ooh...good catch on the Backlash...I never noticed that before...looks like hiring some wizards or getting a rod of epic spellcasting is a Real good thing to get.

Demented
2008-02-06, 11:42 PM
Just hope the other players don't finish the campaign while you're doing your recursive power-up rituals.

CrowSpawn
2008-02-06, 11:43 PM
Okay... I'm sorry, Fuzzy_Juan. What you are talking about goes against almost everything I ever cared about in D&D.

So what you're saying.... if I have this concept right.... is that I cast a low spellcraft epic spell that increases my INT. Then, I cast another, somewhat high spellcraft epic spell, now that I am able, that will increase my INT better. Then I do so again, for a higher INT. And again. And Again!? It's expotential!

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in all my gaming life.

And one thing you are forgetting is the xp cost and the gp cost of such spells, which have to be created in advance. We aren't millionaires here, we're still spending like adventurers. And I haven't got all the xp to spare. And even if I somehow did, I would be so far behind everyone level-wise it might not even matter.

Is Epic suppose to really be this way? If so, I'm almost ready to declare myself a non-epic advocate.

And as an aside: don't get me wrong. This campaign is awesome. I love our roleplay, our group dynamic, our interactions. Our DM does a good job. But the numbers... It just seems so not D&D anymore. It's almost Like I'm playing Diablo 2 over here.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-06, 11:53 PM
Okay... I'm sorry, Fuzzy_Juan. What you are talking about goes against almost everything I ever cared about in D&D.

So what you're saying.... if I have this concept right.... is that I cast a low spellcraft epic spell that increases my INT. Then, I cast another, somewhat high spellcraft epic spell, now that I am able, that will increase my INT better. Then I do so again, for a higher INT. And again. And Again!? It's expotential!

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in all my gaming life.
Yeah, that's pretty much how epic spells work.
A more direct "epic-spells-now" method would be making an epic spell that boosts your spellcraft. Epic Leadership + sacrificed spell slots is also a classic method of epic spell abuse, but that's more for sorcerers.


And one thing you are forgetting is the xp cost and the gp cost of such spells, which have to be created in advance. We aren't millionaires here, we're still spending like adventurers. And I haven't got all the xp to spare. And even if I somehow did, I would be so far behind everyone level-wise it might not even matter.
Epic adventurers are supposed to have truly stupendous amounts of wealth (what's more, wizards have a dozen ways to break the economy. For a quick one, Planar Bind an Efreet, and have it grant you wishes that translate into cold, hard cash). That cash buys you Rods of Excellent Magic, which negate the XP cost of epic spell creation.


Is Epic suppose to really be this way? If so, I'm almost ready to declare myself a non-epic advocate.

And as an aside: don't get me wrong. This campaign is awesome. I love our roleplay, our group dynamic, our interactions. Our DM does a good job. But the numbers... It just seems so not D&D anymore. It's almost Like I'm playing Diablo 2 over here.
Insofar as Epic works at all, it pretty much works this way. Meaning, it doesn't really work at all.

Stopgap measures:

If you're an Incantatrix, you have cheap metamagic. Take advantage of this. Use SR: No spells and metamagic (especially Intensify Spell) with Improved Spell Capacity feats and the epic feat that makes metamagic even cheaper. Arcane-reached Irresistible Dance is a classic, and makes short work of anything not immune to mind-affecting spells (Disjoin mind blanks first).

Then throw down things like Twinned Intensified Orb of X. Also, use Assay Spell Resistance + uncapped damage spells.

There are also spells that don't offer saves to have an effect. Avasculate from the spell compendium halves an enemy's HP--no save.

Research custom non-epic spells. A wizard version of Wings of Flurry would deal SR: No uncapped force damage, for example.

tyckspoon
2008-02-07, 12:00 AM
Okay... I'm sorry, Fuzzy_Juan. What you are talking about goes against almost everything I ever cared about in D&D.

So what you're saying.... if I have this concept right.... is that I cast a low spellcraft epic spell that increases my INT. Then, I cast another, somewhat high spellcraft epic spell, now that I am able, that will increase my INT better. Then I do so again, for a higher INT. And again. And Again!? It's expotential!


It's actually a linear increase, I think, but yes. It is theoretically infinite. And yes, Epic D&D is an entirely different game that almost completely discards any semblance of balance the 1-20 game had. Most especially when Epic Spellcasting is used. The recommended Wealth By Level alone increases by like a factor of ten (of course, that's probably because Epic items cost ten times as much as non-Epic items.) If you don't want to throw yourself headlong into the cheese, I recommend just using one Epic Fortify spell to buff your Int (and maybe a lesser one for Dex, to improve your AC and to-hits with rays?) and ignoring Epic Spellcasting beyond that. Assuming your final Spellcraft DC for it turns out to be about 46 (I misread your post earlier. Bad me,) it'll cost 414,000 gp, 16560 xp, and take 9 days to develop. Those are big numbers, but Epic characters are *supposed* to have big numbers to play with.

Voyager_I
2008-02-07, 12:05 AM
Really? I'd say Emperor Tippy's exponential Solar-Summoning cheese is much, much worse on pretty much every measurable scale of objection.

Except awesomeness, of course.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-07, 12:14 AM
Okay... I'm sorry, Fuzzy_Juan. What you are talking about goes against almost everything I ever cared about in D&D.

So what you're saying.... if I have this concept right.... is that I cast a low spellcraft epic spell that increases my INT. Then, I cast another, somewhat high spellcraft epic spell, now that I am able, that will increase my INT better. Then I do so again, for a higher INT. And again. And Again!? It's expotential!

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in all my gaming life.

And one thing you are forgetting is the xp cost and the gp cost of such spells, which have to be created in advance. We aren't millionaires here, we're still spending like adventurers. And I haven't got all the xp to spare. And even if I somehow did, I would be so far behind everyone level-wise it might not even matter.

Is Epic suppose to really be this way? If so, I'm almost ready to declare myself a non-epic advocate.

And as an aside: don't get me wrong. This campaign is awesome. I love our roleplay, our group dynamic, our interactions. Our DM does a good job. But the numbers... It just seems so not D&D anymore. It's almost Like I'm playing Diablo 2 over here.

Err...I said that tehnically you could do it 'ad nausium' but one bump was sufficient. I know each spell needs to be researched and such...that is the main reason for as few as possible.

High powered games are where odd thins happen cause some of the rules break down under the stress of the powerhouses. All those +1 bonuses mean next to nothing when the DC is so high you need a 20 anyways...you need some way to be on par with the monsters you face...and if not on par, able to do something. otherwise you aren't even playing 'diablo', you are just listening to a game of DnD being told about while you watch unable to do anything.

If you only want to invest in a 1 stage buff, fine. Only one type of bonus...fine. It's your character...but you asked how to use what you had to actually have some ability to do something against these tougher foes...I was giving you a suggestion. Bump your INT and DEX and you can hit with stuff, mage armor or natural armor (stacks with bracers) will help protect you. SR can allow you to survive like they do and not worry as much about your saves vs. all those spell like abilities. You'll have to figure yoru own way to bump your CL to bypass their SR, or cast spells accordingly.

yah, I'll say it again...anything you can potentially do, will of course be limited by resources and available time...noone said it was cake. If you aren't gonna specify some constraints, you'll get the far fetched ideas along with the more conservative.

The numbers...yes...they are epic...your DM might wanna not use the paragon templates as much though...those templates are REALLY strong. Stuff like Lavawights and such are hard, but reasonable...I know he is using the module, so whatever is written is what comes...sounds to me like you were blindsided by the change from 'normal' to epic...the gap is big indeed...In WoW terms, you just hit 70 and now you have to gear up for 'epic' play...until you get some good epic gear and learn some new spells/epic feats...you are a small fish in a very...very...VERY big pond. Once you get a bit further, you'll come to understand the nature of 'epic' play...it is about maxing out what you Can do vs. the enemies weak points while trying your best to not get hit. The enemy can and will hit you...and they will hit you hard. It is pretty much certian that any given hit will land...it was nearly certian at 20, and it is as good as gold that they will smack anyone around they want at this level. epic play calls for a slight shift in tactics and in thinking.

Now that you are facing epic stuff...CR matters a bit more...the difference is astounding between levels as monsters have epic feats. From now on, you will be relying on monsters making their save always and be suprised if they hapen to fail...you will be buffing to the max to face an 'on par' creature/encounter cause to not do so will ensure that they don't get hit. Heals must flow, and battlefield control is even more important...obscuring, walls, manuver, slowing progress, tactical separation of enemy forces so they cannot reinforce each other.

If you think it is crazy now...you haven't had to meet Lolth yet...or any of the dieties that you may encounter in this quest chain...when someone tries to start something with an Avatar of a God, then you will see how truely wild things are. There is a reason that 20 is the cutoff most of the time...the system isn't really designed very well to handle beyond that point. You need to adapt or you will be useless to your party, and only a liability.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-02-07, 01:23 AM
Okay... I'm sorry, Fuzzy_Juan. What you are talking about goes against almost everything I ever cared about in D&D.

Dude, I agree with you 100%. But this is the way that epic spellcasting is designed by RAW. I seriously suggest that you BRING THIS ISSUE UP WITH YOUR DM. Even better, point him to this thread. Then talk to him about continuing with spell levels into epic, because as the old adage goes "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

TS

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-07, 01:25 AM
Yeah, admittedly making stars is a bit out there at level 21 but not by a lot. Epic Magic is BIG. You don't just blow up 1 guy anymore, you blow up a city.

Let's go for a relatively simple epic spell.

Crater Maker
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 60 (DC 79 pre-mitigation)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 12,000 ft.
Target: One creature, or up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes

To Develop: 540,000 gp; 11 days; 21,600 XP. Seeds: Destroy (DC 29). Factors: change from target to area (4 10 foot cubes) (+10 DC), Increase Area to 8,000 Cubes (+40 DC). Mitigating factor: Increase Casting time to 10 miniutes (-18 DC), Burn 100 XP (-1)

Crater Maker lets the caster destroy up to 80,000 cubic meters of objects. In whatever pattern she desires.

----------
If cast in a line straight down that spell would make a hole over 15 miles deep. It can make a tunnel through a mountain of similar length or destroy a city of a little under 4 square miles.

That spell is low, low end epic. Really I would use it for clearing mountains that are in my way or making a lake outside my castle (and I would have mitigated the DC down to 0 in the process).

With that spell you can defeat anything that can't fly. A very, very deep hole opens up right underneath them all of the sudden.

------------
Epic is powerful. Very powerful. At level 30 (without cheese) you can easily rival the gods in power. By level 50 they come to you asking for favors. When I last made an optimized high level character I was dealing 20 negative levels to 20 creatures per round out of a 4th level spell slot. And it was quickened. And repeated for free on my standard action. So in 1 round I could off 20 Great Wyrms. That is pre epic.

Cuddly
2008-02-07, 01:34 AM
When I last made an optimized high level character I was dealing 20 negative levels to 20 creatures per round out of a 4th level spell slot. And it was quickened. And repeated for free on my standard action. So in 1 round I could off 20 Great Wyrms. That is pre epic.

If your DM played all the Great Wyrms as retarded sacks of meat, yeah, sure.

Crow
2008-02-07, 01:41 AM
Quick Question;

Since epic spellcasting requires 24 ranks in spellcraft (etc...), aren't you unable to pick up the feat until level 24? Or do skill ranks go up before choosing feats in the order of leveling up?

Aerogoat
2008-02-07, 01:43 AM
If your DM played all the Great Wyrms as retarded sacks of meat, yeah, sure.You mean letting the Wyrm come withing 100 ft of the Wizard?


Since epic spellcasting requires 24 ranks in spellcraft (etc...), aren't you unable to pick up the feat until level 24? Or do skill ranks go up before choosing feats in the order of leveling up?Class levels (including skill ranks) always come first.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-07, 01:44 AM
Quick Question;

Since epic spellcasting requires 24 ranks in spellcraft (etc...), aren't you unable to pick up the feat until level 24? Or do skill ranks go up before choosing feats in the order of leveling up?

I've had DM's rule both ways. If they rule you can't take it at level 21 and Fiendish Codex 2 is in then you use the Embrace/Shun combo to change whatever feat you took to Epic Spell Crafting right after you level up.

tyckspoon
2008-02-07, 01:44 AM
Quick Question;

Since epic spellcasting requires 24 ranks in spellcraft (etc...), aren't you unable to pick up the feat until level 24? Or do skill ranks go up before choosing feats in the order of leveling up?

Skill rank limit is level+3; you can hit it as soon as you get level 21.

Crow
2008-02-07, 01:46 AM
Skill rank limit is level+3; you can hit it as soon as you get level 21.

I understand that part. What I am talking about is at level 20, your max ranks are 23.

So when you level up, you don't meet the pre-reqs until you put in more ranks. I wanted to know if putting in the ranks on that level-up (20 to 21) counts as meeting the pre-req for getting the feat.

EDIT! Sorry about that, I missed the answer given on the last page.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-07, 01:47 AM
You mean letting the Wyrm come withing 100 ft of the Wizard?

Class levels (including skill ranks) always come first.

A great wyrm that can't protect itself against negative energy effects shouldn't have made it to Great-Wyrm-hood.

Voyager_I
2008-02-07, 02:11 AM
Let's assume it was just an example to show how much death he was dealing...

RedShift zX
2008-02-07, 02:51 AM
Let's assume it was just an example to show how much death he was dealing...

Thank you...


Now if "Crater Maker" is a low end epic spell..whats high end?

Toril Extinction Meteor?

and in the FR setting...isnt 10th level spells the highest thats allowed? Some limit from mystra from what Karsus did right?

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-07, 03:43 AM
not sure about FR....when it comes to Epic spells, the only limiting factor is the DM...if the DM allows it, then there ya go...no matter if the player follows the rules to the letter, the DM is free to say...ummm...no, that is just cheese.

By the same token, the DM should be looking at the encounters planned and see if the players have the skills necessary to overcome the encounters. I recall a few adventure modules where the 'ideal' and what happened were not exactly on the same level...

Not taking advantage of some of the goodies that epic spells offer is like complaining that you can't beat the DR of a creature because you didn't want to invest in a +6 or greater magic weapon cause it was 'cheesy' and expensive...

When in Rome...Epic is playing with the big boys now...keep up, or get lost as they say...go big, or go home. Those who will not reach for 'epic' numbers will not meet epic challenges...as such, they will never advance and become truely epic. The choice is yours. There is no shame in not going for the more optimal builds/spells/buffs...but there is no shame in using what is available either.

Telok
2008-02-07, 11:36 AM
Remember, you have friends. Especially two friendly casters, one of whom ought to also be capable of casting epic spells. Therefore...

Epic Spell: Minion(s)

Seed: Animate
Target: One Gargantuan Statue

Seed DC +25, cast time increase (+10 minutes) -20, one participant contributing an epic spell slot -19, one participant contributing a 6th level spell slot -11, 35d6 backlash for the caster -35, add 34 extra HD +68, permanent duration x5 final DC.

Total DC = 40

I modeled this off Create Living Vault. It'll give you a 50 HD gargantuan animated object, and you can cast it twice a day. It won't solve all your problems, you'll want to heal between castings too, but it's an indication of the sort of stuff you can do with this. The backlash is tailored to your hit points and assumes above average die rolls.

If you want nasty spells you can work up a Transport/Delude seed one that creates a one-way portal to another plane similar to the Gate spell, but for some reason happens to be totally undetectable until you pass through, except that it closes once something passes through it. If it can't do planar travel, it's not a threat anymore.

Indon
2008-02-07, 12:01 PM
Yeah, epic magic is kind of screwy. Below are a couple epic spells I hacked up that I think you'll feel are more appropriate epic spells. One is a spell that gives you a Luck bonus to your intelligence for 40 hours, the other is a spell that protects you from melee attacks that takes only one standard action to cast. You can cast both by taking 10 on Spellcraft. The kicker for both, of course, is the massive GP and XP costs for developing both spells.


And one thing you are forgetting is the xp cost and the gp cost of such spells, which have to be created in advance. We aren't millionaires here, we're still spending like adventurers. And I haven't got all the xp to spare. And even if I somehow did, I would be so far behind everyone level-wise it might not even matter.

Lucky guess
Effect: +8 Luck bonus to Intelligence for 40 hours.
Seed: Fortify
Base DC: 23
+7 extra effect: +42
10 minute casting time: -20
extra duration: +2
personal range: -2
Total DC: 45
Research: 405,000 GP, 9 days research time, 16,200 XP.


Attack Ward
Effect: Reflects five melee attacks upon the attacker using the attacker's attack roll.
Seed: Reflect (Melee)
Base DC:27
1 action casting time: +20
Total DC: 47
Research: 423,000 GP, 9 days research time, 16,920 XP.

I recommend asking your DM to reduce GP/XP costs for epic spell development.

Douglas
2008-02-07, 12:51 PM
Quick Question;

Since epic spellcasting requires 24 ranks in spellcraft (etc...), aren't you unable to pick up the feat until level 24? Or do skill ranks go up before choosing feats in the order of leveling up?
PHB page 58, how to level up step by step. Skill points are step 6. Feats are step 7.

Edit: Yes, I know this was already answered, I'm just providing the source of the rule.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-07, 03:48 PM
Thank you...


Now if "Crater Maker" is a low end epic spell..whats high end?

Toril Extinction Meteor?

and in the FR setting...isnt 10th level spells the highest thats allowed? Some limit from mystra from what Karsus did right?

high end epic is something along the lines of creating your own multiverse in which you are an overgod. Seriously. Stupid, stupid limitless system.

And in FR higher than 9th level spells are banned, Mystra having decided that alowing mortals to freakin EAT her was a bad thing after only having it happen the once, making her somewhat ahead of the curve for a deity.:smallsmile:

Epic Casting however wasn't banned, hence High Magic still being available to the elves (They're just not dumb enough to use it often as it seems to have a tendancy to backfire if it's amped up too high or used too much, see the realms history book for some good ideas of overstretch, the Sundering being the biggest). Technically epic casting is treated as being of 10th level for some interactions with the gaming engine but they aren't actually 10th level slots being used (for them you need Improved Spell Capacity). I'm sure the FR designers would blather about epic casting directly accessing "magic" and not using the weave at all or something like that, effectively it's cheating but past 20th you need to just to keep up as has been pointed out.

LotharBot
2008-02-07, 06:03 PM
PHB page 58, how to level up step by step. Skill points are step 6. Feats are step 7.

PHB page 58 doesn't actually say you have to take the steps in order, only that those are the changes you need to make when leveling up. The only necessary order is that you choose your class before picking up abilities that depend on class (such as skills, spells, and class features.) I let my players use anything picked up at level X as a prerequisite for anything else picked up at level X, as long as they don't do anything circular. (Using skill points to qualify for a PrC would be circular, since you get skill ranks from your class.)

But yes, if you read PHB page 58 as giving a strict order, you can still get the "24 ranks" epic feats at level 21, the "27 ranks" feats at 24, and the "30 ranks" feats at 27. That seems intentional -- it's why there are so many 24/27/30 rank feats (and a bunch of 25 rank feats, which make you delay at least one level before you can get them.)

GoC
2008-02-07, 09:19 PM
Telok: Mitigating factors are applied after everything else so in order to get a DC 40 spellcraft check you're going to have to forget all the extra HD...

One thing that should definitely be done however is a DC100 spell that increases Con but has maximum backlash damage, the Con bonus negate the damage with hitpoints to spare!:smallcool:

KoDT69
2008-02-07, 09:45 PM
Last epic spell I made was something like a DC 68 in the end and was a 100 ft radius mass heal mass resurrect mass buff of like +5 to attack, damage, and saves for more than 24 hours. It was pretty useful for that 2 hours the character lived. He sacrificed himself with excessive backlashing sun spells onto an army of vampire something-or-others. Yeah, that's why I stick to DMing. The one other guy in my group who can kinda DM has really off-the-cuff encounters. Arbitrarily deciding the BBEG has like 37,000hp and a 500hd cohort with every feat in existence is lame. I had to kill myself to get out of that campaign! :smallfurious:

I do like the idea of permanent duration Eidolon type spells though! Give up a level until it bites the dust, and meanwhile you're your own best friend and getting higher XP because you dropped a level.

Telok
2008-02-08, 10:45 AM
Telok: Mitigating factors are applied after everything else so in order to get a DC 40 spellcraft check you're going to have to forget all the extra HD...

Ahh, I missed that sentence then. Actually makes it easier in some ways.

Drop the permanent and reduce the epic slot mitigation to 9th level. You can then increase the duration to 300 rounds (50 minutes) or add another 15 hit die to the critter. You'd just need to have a statue that big be portable and available.

Alternately create massive amounts of solid adamantine to entomb stuff or... Man that's bad....

I just looked at the Sphere of Annihilation. Make an epic spell that will boost your Int mod only for purposes of controlling the sphere. With some decent mitigation (and a Sphere of course) you ought to be able to hit +100 bonus or so. That ought to get you to about a 500' range on moving the Sphere, which is a free action. Just move it into your target's space.

Anyway, you have lots of options. Epic spellcasting is about breaking the rules, thinking outside the box, breaking the box into itty bitty bits, shoving the bits into your foe's assorted body cavities, then turning the bits into nail studded wood golems. Have fun with it.

Heliomance
2008-07-10, 03:03 PM
Trouble is, the Sphere is an artifact. Meaning you can't create one. Meaning you can only get one if the DM gives one to you.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-10, 03:44 PM
"Begone Foul Necromancer"

*smite!*

Frosty
2008-07-10, 03:48 PM
Holy thread True Ressurection Batman! :smalleek:

Roland St. Jude
2008-07-10, 04:37 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't resurrect old threads*. Please do start and new thread and link to the old one (if necessary).

*By "old threads" I mean threads older than six weeks and farther back than page three.