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Dragor
2008-02-06, 03:17 PM
I'm a total noob in terms of being able to argue a classes case. When my friend said that Sorcerers were better than Wizards. Knowing the people of the Playground, I knew that to be false, as Wizards were at the top of the power curve, but I couldn't explain why. Sorcerers get more spells to cast per day was the basis of his argument.

Tell me why he is wrong.

P.S. I usually play martial orientated characters, that's why in the magic department, my knowledge is lacking- a lot.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-06, 03:24 PM
The main reasons that you are going to get are:

1. Metamagic/Familiar: Sorcerers need to use more time to metamagic a spell unless they use the PHB 2 variant, in which case they lose their familiar.

2. Versitility: Wizards aren't limited to a pretty small pool of spells known as Sorcerers are.

3. Bonus Feats: Wizards get them, sorcerers don't.

4. Spells sooner: Wizards get access to spells one full level sooner than Sorcerers.

5. Skill points: Both have the same base, but a Wizard's most important stat is Int.

Draz74
2008-02-06, 03:28 PM
What AKA_Bait said is all true. (Although the Familiar isn't a big deal usually. The PHB II helps the Sorcerer overcome the Metamagic problem pretty well, really.)

One more thing: In most campaigns, the casters never run out of spells anyway, so the Sorcerer's greater number of spells/day doesn't help. This isn't really true at Levels 1-4 or so, but after that ... yeah.

The Sorcerer's biggest advantage over the Wizard is actually that he doesn't have to guess how many times he will need to prepare each spell; he's more adaptable on a short-term basis. But that's made up for by the Wizard being way more adaptable on a long-term basis.

valadil
2008-02-06, 03:41 PM
What it comes down to is spells to choose from. Wizards can potentially learn every spell in the game. This means that with some preparation (meaning some divinations cast in advance) a wizard can have a spellbook that deals with whatever situation he'll be faced with. A sorcerer pretty much has to take spells that are useful 90% of the time, when cast over and over.

That said, in my experience very few players are actually capable of that much preparation. It takes 4-6 HOURS for me to plan my level 24 wizard's spells for the day. There's a good chance that at some point during those hours I make a bad choice. And even if I don't, I'm so exhausted from reading D&D spells that I'm likely to play poorly. My sorcerer doesn't have this problem. I guess what I'm getting at is that the wizard has a ton more potential, but there's so much overhead that they often get dragged down quite a bit. (FWIW my sorcerer uses the PHB2 fast metamagic option, is about to take incantatrix, and regularly outperforms the party wizard).

Sorcerers do have a few options for making up for wizards in terms of spell selection. Anything with spell pool (ie Mage of the Arcane Order) is helpful. As is shadow magic. It only takes 4 levels of MotAO to get level 6 spells out of your spell pool. I'd really like to see a 6 sorc, 4 MotAO, 10 incantatrix. Gnome sorc shadowcrafter seems like it would be tons of fun too, though none of my groups would allow it.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-06, 03:51 PM
What it comes down to is spells to choose from. Wizards can potentially learn every spell in the game. This means that with some preparation (meaning some divinations cast in advance) a wizard can have a spellbook that deals with whatever situation he'll be faced with. A sorcerer pretty much has to take spells that are useful 90% of the time, when cast over and over.

That said, in my experience very few players are actually capable of that much preparation. It takes 4-6 HOURS for me to plan my level 24 wizard's spells for the day.

Although this is true, it can be much alleviated by the use of scrolls, wonderous items and wands. Wizards get scribe scroll for free and the bonus feats make CWI and CW pretty easy aquisitions. Scrolls for particularly unusual spells that they might someday need, wands (eternal wands usually for my wizard) of low level utility spells (Knock, Tongues etc.), and items of things they will almost certianly need on a regular basis (Mage Armor etc.) A Wizard with a big sack o' scrolls (many of which he bought for the explicit purpose of adding a new spell to his book that he hasn't used yet) is as, if not more, versitle than a Sorcerer.

That said, the bookkeeping is still much much more for a Wizard. So, although they are technically more powerful than Sorcerers on paper I usually prefer to play sorcerers or to take reserve feats/prc into Archmage and use High Arcana.

Zenos
2008-02-06, 04:11 PM
Easy, firstly, Wizards can learn all the spells on their spell lists, which sorcerers cannot. Due to this, more versatility.

Second, if the wizard uses divinations right and is always prepared, he can thus choose just the right spells for anything and therefore be extremely hard to beat.

Third, wizards get metamagic feats.

Simply put, a Sorcerer is too specialized and doesn't have the metamagic feats and scrolls a wizard has.

Blackadder
2008-02-06, 04:31 PM
Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 04:38 PM
I'm a total noob in terms of being able to argue a classes case. When my friend said that Sorcerers were better than Wizards. Knowing the people of the Playground, I knew that to be false, as Wizards were at the top of the power curve, but I couldn't explain why. Sorcerers get more spells to cast per day was the basis of his argument.

Tell me why he is wrong.

P.S. I usually play martial orientated characters, that's why in the magic department, my knowledge is lacking- a lot.

It depends on the player and the campaign and the main reason I prefer the variant spellcaster. The advantages are pretty obvious comparing them in core side to side since the sorcerer classs was nerfed mechanically when compared to all other spontaneous full casters. A sorcerer is pretty good for a first caster to get a handle on spellcasting.

IMO the sorcerer class actually benefits a little more from an open source game since the sorcerer PC loses nothing for PRCing and gets better spell selection and class options particularly with the Mage of the Arcane Order or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep PRC and Rings of Theurgy since the Player can master a few dozen spells and use them as desired in the game. Don't forget Abjurant Champion. (Notice there wasn't a corresponding Master Sorcerer PRC like the Master Specialist for the Specialist Wizards and only the Specialist Wizards)

The wizard player with 30+ spells a level and a DM who monitors down time for scribing scrools and deducts experience and insists on a copy of the wizard's daily memorized spell lists is a lot of work.

So in some games he is correct. In tight low magic campaigns where it is tough for wizard's to get new spells without original spell research or treasure from a DM (Yes people actually play those games) sorcerer can be very nice especially with a few variants like going Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with a Reserve feat Fiery Burst at level 1 fueled by Precocious Apprentice Scorching Ray. He is correct with Players and DMs who don't like to do a lot of book and record keeping.

Reinboom
2008-02-06, 04:40 PM
Another very very important thing to note about higher levels is quicken spell metamagic.
Even with the PHB2 alternative class feature, the sorcerer is still limited to using it only 3+ int times a day. 3+ int times a day at an extra action in a round, that is.

Actions per round is one of the, if not the, most powerful immediate resource in the game for higher levels. Which a sorcerer gets stripped of completely in core, and can only do so a limited times per day with extra books.
If the game goes down to only 1 to 2 combats a day, so, the 3+int + metamagic rod eventually limit doesn't matter much, then the sorcerer loses one of its two benefits over the wizard, which is the number of spells per day available.
On 3 or more combats a day, the sorcerer might have more potential spells total in that time, but, can't pull off as many on a per round basis as the wizard.

Next is the spells known and when they actually get the next level. Sorcerers , as mentioned before, get their spells at a level later. 3rd level spells at level 6 instead of level 5, and similar. However, even when they finally get their new level, they still only know 1 spell for it. This makes them extremely cornered in the focus of versatility. In contrast, a wizard automatically gets 2 spells at each level AND can write more into its book. Which means, by the time the sorcerer gets the ability to cast Haste, and just Haste for the 3rd level, the Wizard could already be deciding between atleast Haste, Slow, Fireball, and Fly.

Green Bean
2008-02-06, 04:40 PM
Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time

Why wouldn't the Wizard have a spare?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 04:41 PM
Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time

Any wizard worth his salt is going to take protective measures against this. There are also such things as a tattoo spellbook and similar feats and alternative class features that make it more difficult (if not impossible) for a spellbook to be taken or destroyed.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-06, 04:42 PM
Has anyone posted a sorcerer fix in homebrew? I checked, but the search function is annoying and I couldn't find one.

shaggz076
2008-02-06, 04:44 PM
In tight low magic campaigns where it is tough for wizard's to get new spells without original spell research or treasure from a DM sorcerer can be very nice especially with a few variants like going Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with a Reserve feat Fiery Burst at level 1 fueled by Precocious Apprentice Scorching Ray. He is correct with Players and DMs who don't like to do a lot of book and record keeping.

I am assuming that the "Precocious Apprentice" is a feat allowing you a higher level spell at lower levels. Can you post the feat and book here so I can look it over? I would really like to learn more as you have intrigued me...

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-06, 04:45 PM
Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time

Also, Adepts are massively superior to druids, because you can dominate the druid and make him/her teach a non-druid the Druidic language. Seriously.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 04:46 PM
I am assuming that the "Precocious Apprentice" is a feat allowing you a higher level spell at lower levels. Can you post the feat and book here so I can look it over? I would really like to learn more as you have intrigued me...

Sure here you go:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Precocious_Apprentice,CAr

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Fiery_Burst,CM

Reinboom
2008-02-06, 04:46 PM
Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time

Note a wizard nearly always:
A) Protects their spellbook.
B) Has a backup
C) Has a way to get another spellbook
D) Still has many spells still prepared at the time of the F 451 of which to utilize til a replacement is found.

Then... comes the issue if the above is not true.
You just removed the sole class feature of a class in its ENTIRETY. It has no significant skills, BAB, Hit Die, etc. They are insignificant, and can perform nearly nothing.
Thus, you just did not only nerf a class, you just attacked the ability of its player to have any reasonable enjoyment out of their class. To directly deny a player enjoyment out of a game so harshly, I consider, rather mean DMing.


-snip-

Don't forget that the wizard gets 2 spells free at each level.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-06, 04:47 PM
Why wouldn't the Wizard have a spare?

Not only a spare, but a few spares, hidden on the same plane, with an arcane mark on them and Spell Mastery with Instant Summons among the spells known. Any decent wizard who has his spell book destroyed will be a commoner for all of 8 hours, max.

valadil
2008-02-06, 04:47 PM
A Wizard with a big sack o' scrolls (many of which he bought for the explicit purpose of adding a new spell to his book that he hasn't used yet) is as, if not more, versitle than a Sorcerer.


Quite true. I didn't even bother mentioning this, because I feel that even without a Santa sack of scrolls, the wizard is still more versatile.

Yes sorcerers can buy scrolls too, but the wizard gets to make them cheaper AND use his caster level instead of the default. At level 10, a level 5 caster's fireball isn't all that great, but a scroll the wizard makes will be at CL10.

I think things might be even if the sorcerer got bonus metamagic and the wizard didn't (or maybe the wizard got crafting feats but not metamagic). I really like playing a sorcerer with tons of metamagic (incantatrix gives 3 mm feats) and spontaneously building up the spell I need. I've found that having lots of metamagic with residual metamagic does add some amount of versatility. It won't suddenly give you waterbreathing when confronted with an underwater situation, but it does let you empower and split that ray of enfeeblement when confronted with two casters.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-02-06, 04:47 PM
Also, Adepts are massively superior to druids, because you can dominate the druid and make him/her teach a non-druid the Druidic language. Seriously.

OMG, I'm totally going to drop my druid character and make an adept instead!!!!!1!111!!:smalltongue:.

Reinboom
2008-02-06, 04:49 PM
Has anyone posted a sorcerer fix in homebrew? I checked, but the search function is annoying and I couldn't find one.

Many, I believe. I have, at least.

Really, the simplest method at just "fixing" the sorcerer is:
Add 1 spell known per spell level.
Increase their skills to 4+Int skill points.
Add Know(The Planes), Diplomacy, Intimidate to their lists.
Give them eschew materials.

These are the most common fixes. Giving them metamagic as a wizard, and similar, have also occurred.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-06, 04:51 PM
I think things might be even if the sorcerer got bonus metamagic and the wizard didn't (or maybe the wizard got crafting feats but not metamagic).

That particular variant is one I've always liked quite a lot. Sorc and Wiz both get bonus feats at the same levels. Sorc get metamagic, wizards get item creation/spell mastery. Bump them to getting into spells at the same level and I think they are close to even.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 04:52 PM
Yes sorcerers can buy scrolls too, but the wizard gets to make them cheaper AND use his caster level instead of the default. At level 10, a level 5 caster's fireball isn't all that great, but a scroll the wizard makes will be at CL10.



A sorcerer can do that around level 12 for a high powered game via Mage of the Arcane Order or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep with a Ring of Theurgy and taking the Scribe Scroll feat since a PC can normally only scribe a single scroll a day.

LotharBot
2008-02-06, 04:54 PM
A sorcerer can only work a few synergistic (or broken) spell combos into their spells known. A wizard can have several of those spell combos prepared, and typically has every broken spell combo in his spellbook.

That's where the wizard's greater versatility really shines.

Reinboom
2008-02-06, 04:54 PM
That particular variant is one I've always liked quite a lot. Sorc and Wiz both get bonus feats at the same levels. Sorc get metamagic, wizards get item creation/spell mastery. Bump them to getting into spells at the same level and I think they are close to even.

Combining that with what I said:

Sorcerer Variant (http://pifro.com/dnd/NEW/?F=NOcustom&B=BBBG20&H=132&C=sorcerer.wizard.sorcerer&S=66&V=25489&SL0=Familiar,%20Eschew%20Materials&SC0=641&SL1=Bonus%20Metamagic%20Feat&SC1=165)
:smalltongue:

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2008-02-06, 04:56 PM
Pat Buchanon

Wait! No! I mis-cast my vote! The ballot was confusing. Anyhow, Wizard has been my fave, though the class does require some bookkeeping. This has been a turn-off to some caster-players. Me, I keep a little box of 3x5 cards which has my spellbook contents, and which spells I've memorized for the day. It's my favorite method so far. Others prefer to play the sorcerer, who has a limited spell list and casts as they like.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 04:56 PM
There's a feat similar to Arcane Manipulation (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Arcane_Manipulation,all) for Sorcerors somewhere. I think they should get both it and Eschew Materials for free. It might help somewhat.

EDIT: There it is: Versatile Spellcaster (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Versatile_Spellcaster,all).

AKA_Bait
2008-02-06, 05:07 PM
A sorcerer can do that around level 12 for a high powered game via Mage of the Arcane Order or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep with a Ring of Theurgy and taking the Scribe Scroll feat since a PC can normally only scribe a single scroll a day.

So... you are saying that with a PrC and a Magical Item, or by spending an extra feat a sorcerer can do what a Wizard does without needing any of those things? Not exactly a point in the Sorc. favor.


Combining that with what I said:

Sorcerer Variant (http://pifro.com/dnd/NEW/?F=NOcustom&B=BBBG20&H=132&C=sorcerer.wizard.sorcerer&S=66&V=25489&SL0=Familiar,%20Eschew%20Materials&SC0=641&SL1=Bonus%20Metamagic%20Feat&SC1=165)
:smalltongue:

Lets have a look see.

Edit: Fantastic. Me like class table generator!


There's a feat similar to Arcane Manipulation (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Arcane_Manipulation,all) for Sorcerors somewhere. I think they should get both it and Eschew Materials for free. It might help somewhat.

EDIT: There it is: Versatile Spellcaster (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Versatile_Spellcaster,all).

Frankly, I think inexpensive material components should just be done away with all together. They serve pretty much no real purpose and most of them are (literally) bad jokes.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 05:26 PM
So... you are saying that with a PrC and a Magical Item, or by spending an extra feat a sorcerer can do what a Wizard does without needing any of those things? Not exactly a point in the Sorc. favor.



No what I'm saying is if it is that important to a player to have Scrolls it can be done in game. Say the group without magic stores or a wizard in the party because no one wants to play them or the Sorcerer who wants an occassional Limited Wish but can't take Arcane Disciple Spell domain.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-06, 05:28 PM
No what I'm saying is if it is that important to a player to have Scrolls it can be done in game. Say the group without magic stores or a wizard in the party because no one wants to play them or the Sorcerer who wants an occassional Limited Wish but can't take Arcane Disciple Spell domain.

Oh sure. Just thought that was supposed to be a point against the Wizard being better... given the thread title.

Cruiser1
2008-02-06, 05:47 PM
Third, wizards get metamagic feats.
Simply put, a Sorcerer is too specialized and doesn't have the metamagic feats and scrolls a wizard has.
Rather, what you mean is that the Wizard gets Wizard Bonus feats, which may be used to learn metamagic or other specialized feats such as item creation, etc. The Wizard gets a bonus feat every 5th level, so they end up with 4 more feats (5 counting Scribe Scroll) than the Sorcerer by level 20. Of course, most Wizards go into PrC's, so they lose some bonus feats (but what they gain from the PrC is more than worth it).

Sorcerers can take advantage of metamagic much better than a Wizard. A Wizard needs to prepare spells already megamagiced, while a Sorcerer can metamagic them on the fly. If a Sorcerer wants to nuke harder, they say use a 6th level slot to cast Maximized Fireball. If a Wizard wants to nuke harder, they'll probably cast Fireball and then Quickened Fireball (every Wizard takes Quicken Spell of course) for the same damage, taking up a 3rd level slot and a 7th level slot.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-06, 05:58 PM
So, would it be unbalancing to give the sorcerer:
4+int skillpoints
Faster spell progression
The ability to specialize(ban 2 schools for one more spell known from a chosen school at each spell level at the first level you can cast that level of spells, qualifies for anything that requires specialization such as Master Specialist)
?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 06:03 PM
Sorcerers can take advantage of metamagic much better than a Wizard. A Wizard needs to prepare spells already megamagiced, while a Sorcerer can metamagic them on the fly. If a Sorcerer wants to nuke harder, they say use a 6th level slot to cast Maximized Fireball. If a Wizard wants to nuke harder, they'll probably cast Fireball and then Quickened Fireball (every Wizard takes Quicken Spell of course) for the same damage, taking up a 3rd level slot and a 7th level slot.

Problem there is that a sorceror can't move or do anything else in a round in which he does that metamagicked fireball: spontaneous casters kinda get the shaft when it comes to actually applying metamagic.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-06, 06:05 PM
So, would it be unbalancing to give the sorcerer:
4+int skillpoints
Faster spell progression
The ability to specialize(ban 2 schools for one more spell known from a chosen school at each spell level at the first level you can cast that level of spells, qualifies for anything that requires specialization such as Master Specialist)
?

Add in anouther one or two known spells per level and Eshew materials and it's up to the power level of the top tier core casters (wiz, druid, cleric) though why you'd want to is anouther matter. Those aren't enough by themselves to equal out the gap but the sorc is already ahead of the noncasters and halfcasters anyway.

Indon
2008-02-06, 06:12 PM
Problem there is that a sorceror can't move or do anything else in a round in which he does that metamagicked fireball: spontaneous casters kinda get the shaft when it comes to actually applying metamagic.

Yeah. But tweaking the Sorceror's spontaneous metamagic to be better would probably close most of the Sor/Wiz power gap.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 06:15 PM
Yeah. But tweaking the Sorceror's spontaneous metamagic to be better would probably close most of the Sor/Wiz power gap.

It'd certainly make the sorceror a hell of a lot more competitive. Couple that with 4+Int skills with a few Cha-centric additions, and I'd call it nigh-even.

Crow
2008-02-06, 06:17 PM
They may learn Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion to get spells off fast and efficent as well.

Triaxx
2008-02-06, 06:17 PM
Wizards Batman, Sorcerors get to blast. A Wizard worries about what he's firing, a Sorceror just blazes away. While a Wizard is counting how many times he's memorized Seep early on, I can chew into the enemy with the sure damage of Magic Missile, and if a target of opportunity comes up, I can use Sleep instead.

deadseashoals
2008-02-06, 06:19 PM
Cake vs ice cream. Seriously.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 06:23 PM
Cake vs ice cream. Seriously.

Cake is broken, ice cream can't compete with it. Especially if you bring granola and holy water into the equation.

RedShift zX
2008-02-06, 06:26 PM
I was actually wondering about this too..

What about a multi-class Sorcerer/Wizard/Archmage Hybrid? Say 10/10 with 5 levels of Archmage? ya 25th level character, but whats the advantages/trade-offs of a character like this? and do you get ONE spell list for the two classes or two seperate lists as a 10th level wiz/sorc?

random thought, never looked too deeply into casters.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-06, 06:28 PM
Way under-powered, you get 2 lists and the CL doesn't stack. Plus, if you plan on going Ultimate Magus, Wizard/Beguiler is a much better route.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-06, 06:32 PM
I'm a total noob in terms of being able to argue a classes case. When my friend said that Sorcerers were better than Wizards. Knowing the people of the Playground, I knew that to be false, as Wizards were at the top of the power curve, but I couldn't explain why. Sorcerers get more spells to cast per day was the basis of his argument.

Tell me why he is wrong.

P.S. I usually play martial orientated characters, that's why in the magic department, my knowledge is lacking- a lot.

He's partly right. It depends on the campaign and the player - various facets of the two will make things better or worse for one class or the other. In general, the Wizard will usually be better... but do note that if you've got two arcanists in the party, the suggestion is for one of each, not two of either. A few samples of such facets:

Player Experience:
With someone who isn't used to playing prepared casters, but has some help with spell selection, the Sorcerer is a better class. The Wizard is better if there's no help with spell selection (it's easier to re-tool a Wizard in game) or with someone who's good at using prepared casters.

Foreknowledge:
If you never know what to expect, a Sorcerer with a good spell list will generally end up doing better than a Wizard will - because the Sorcerer's "good enough" spell that he can cast more often beats "The Perfect Spell" that wasn't prepared today by the Wizard, or his "good enough" spell that he can cast once. If things are run in such a way that you usually have a pretty good idea what you'll be facing, the Wizard has "The Perfect Spell" on hand, while the Sorcerer is making do with a "good enough" spell.

Campaign Pace:
A Sorcerer is not hindered by a lack of down-time; a good night's rest and 15 minutes concentration, and a Sorcerer is good to go. The Wizard, on the other hand, needs time to add spells to a spellbook, time to make backups, and time to craft scrolls and wands for endurance needs. If the time is there, the Wizard is fine; if it's not, the Sorcerer is doing better.

Wealth Levels:
A Sorcerer is not overly hindered by a low-wealth campaign. Money for scrolls and wands of little-used spells are nice, but not required. A Sorcerer-20 with only 10 gp in equipment is at about 75% power and flexibility compared to a wealth-by-level Sorcerer-20. A Wizard-20 with 10 gp in equipment is at maybe 50% power compared to a wealth-by-level Sorcerer-20. The Sorcerer suffers less from a lack of goods than does the Wizard. If there's no real lack, this isn't much of a problem.

It depends on the campaign and the player.

It also depends on permitted sources - there are tricks by which a Sorcerer can skip his limitations entirely, if the right books are in play and the player chooses to go that route.
Edit:
For a sample of how to get around limits, look at the Desert Kobold (UA enviromental variant - trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty, looses Light Sensitivity, a few less important things), Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10 (CA)/Archmage-5 (DMG) who took some Flaws (UA) to qualify that early, grabbed the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon web enhancement) with a Bloodline Feat (Dragon Compendium). At 7th, he casts as a Sorcerer-8 - which means 4th level spells, just like the Wizard. He's got two 4th level spells that he knows inherently, and he can get any 3rd, 2nd, or 1st level PHB sor/wiz spell on a moment's notice (roughly once per day, but still...) provided it's still on his spell list (lost a few due to the Bloodline feat). Once Limited Wish is in play, he invokes Magic-Psionics transparency (XPH) twice (once to get the effect, once to have it apply to spells known instead of powers known) to use Limited Wish to Duplicate Psychic Reformation (XPH) and change up his last six levels worth of feat, skill, and spells known decisions... which will generally be the top three spell level's worth. This Sorcerer can change out his spells known in one standard action (although it costs a 7th level spell slot and 300 xp). He can even make use of Quicken Spell, thanks to the Arcane Preparation feat (CA, required for a Sorcerer to enter the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC).

RedShift zX
2008-02-06, 06:41 PM
Way under-powered, you get 2 lists and the CL doesn't stack. Plus, if you plan on going Ultimate Magus, Wizard/Beguiler is a much better route.

I figured.

I don't understand why sorc's do get any bonus feats at all-besides balancing-, almost every core class gets bonus feats or special abilites..Sorc's just get more spells per day?..

lol this makes me wonder (in a spell-duel sense)....Simbul vrs. Elminster? lol.

thats off topic though.

Lupy
2008-02-06, 07:03 PM
Where can I find:
A) The power curve
and B) info on caster-friendly armour?

Reinboom
2008-02-06, 07:08 PM
Cake vs ice cream. Seriously.

Cake is broken, ice cream can't compete with it. Especially if you bring granola and holy water into the equation.

I prefer ice cream... cake doesn't mix with things too well, normally. Ice cream you can put chocolate in it, pickles in it, barbecue in it, syrup in it, milk in it and shake it, root beer in it... etc. etc. etc.
Cake? Cake you have to remove the frosting off of it. :smallsigh:


Wizards Batman, Sorcerors get to blast. A Wizard worries about what he's firing, a Sorceror just blazes away. While a Wizard is counting how many times he's memorized Seep early on, I can chew into the enemy with the sure damage of Magic Missile, and if a target of opportunity comes up, I can use Sleep instead.

Just because you are a sorcerer doesn't mean you blast.
My current sorcerer has 1 "blasting" spell. At level 10.
Very much a utility / buffing sorcerer.


Where can I find:
A) The power curve
and B) info on caster-friendly armour?


A) there are many threads on it. I think one or so might be on page 2 or 3 of these forum parts.
B) Just look at ASF. Twilight Mithril Chainshirt is a common favorite.

John Campbell
2008-02-06, 08:54 PM
A properly prepared wizard can make up for the spells-per-day, too... even ignoring magic items like scrolls and wands.

My wizard was recently in a situation where we knew that we had a day to prepare before going into a major - campaign-ending - encounter that was going to include at least two huge, resource-testing fights without any time to stop and rest between. I took that day to, first off, purchase and learn a new spell that I'd decided we were going to need, and, secondly, prepare Rary's mnemonic enhancer in every single spell slot I had of 4th level or higher. Then I spent an hour and a half casting it repeatedly that night before going to sleep, and prepared an extra 27 levels of spells for the next 24 hours, on top of my full usual allotment 8 hours later. Neither of those are things that sorcerers can do.

Then the next day, that spell I'd picked up specifically for the situation pretty much won the first huge fight for us. We then fought our way through a smallish dungeon, through several smaller encounters, and then into the huge climactic battle. I still had useful spells left when our sorceress ran out, and ultimately walked away from the battle, having been largely responsible for us vanquishing the BBEG and not all dying, with spells still prepped... and carrying the sorceress's entire mortal remains in a spell component pouch.

Of course, some of that was because that character was a fighter/wizard, and so could take a lot more punishment than the sorceress, plus my solution to several minor threats where the sorceress's options were using spells that she was going to miss later or being totally useless was to just hit it in the face with my axe until it stopped twitching. On the other hand, that also meant that I normally had not just fewer spells than she did, but way fewer, because I was not just a wizard, but a wizard three caster levels behind.

Cuddly
2008-02-06, 09:14 PM
If a wizard is in a situation where his prepared spells don't do anything, all he can do is shoot with a crossbow or plink with a wand. Good sorcerer builds have enough flexibility that though they won't be able to solve the 99% of situations a hypothetical Shrodinger-Wizard can, they'll be able to overcome 60-70%.

Voyager_I
2008-02-06, 09:25 PM
Of course, isn't the key issue here that Wizards are too strong, rather than Sorcerers being too weak? I mean, saying something that something isn't balanced against Wizards is kinda like Heracles is a weakling because he couldn't beat up Zeus?

Jack_Simth
2008-02-06, 09:31 PM
A couple of notes...


A properly prepared wizard can make up for the spells-per-day, too... even ignoring magic items like scrolls and wands.

My wizard was recently in a situation where we knew
Foreknowledge: A favorable Wizard circumstance.

that we had a day to prepare While you can set up a Sorcerer who can do something to prepare during down-time (Planar Binding line, mostly), by default, this is another Wizard favorable facet.

before going into a major - campaign-ending - encounter that was going to include at least two huge, resource-testing fights without any time to stop and rest between. I took that day to, first off, purchase and learn a new spell that I'd decided we were going to need
Scrolls of spells easily found and purchased: A Favorable Circumstance for Wizards.

, and, secondly, prepare Rary's mnemonic enhancer in every single spell slot I had of 4th level or higher. Good thing nothing unexpected happened - had you been interrupted, you would have had some severe issues, what with being out your top two or three tiers of useful spells. Down-time: A favorable circumstance for a Wizard.

Then I spent an hour and a half casting it repeatedly that night before going to sleep, and prepared an extra 27 levels of spells for the next 24 hours, on top of my full usual allotment 8 hours later. Neither of those are things that sorcerers can do.

No, but consider that 27 levels of spells is nine castings - you were casting as... what, about a Wiz-11 or 12? The Sorcerer of that level is already two spells per day per spell level ahead - two 1st level spells, two 2nd level spells, two third level spells, and so on; by 5th level spells, those two extra spells per day the sorcerer has at every spell level, an equivalent-build Sorcerer is still beating you out for spell levels on that day.


Then the next day, that spell I'd picked up specifically for the situation pretty much won the first huge fight for us.
... and you cast it once, maybe twice. Other than possible DC or caster level issues, a Sorcerer grabbing a scroll or two of the same spell would likely have been equally useful, or nearly so.

We then fought our way through a smallish dungeon, through several smaller encounters, and then into the huge climactic battle. I still had useful spells left when our sorceress ran out, and ultimately walked away from the battle, having been largely responsible for us vanquishing the BBEG and not all dying, with spells still prepped... and carrying the sorceress's entire mortal remains in a spell component pouch.

Of course, some of that was because that character was a fighter/wizard, and so could take a lot more punishment than the sorceress, plus my solution to several minor threats where the sorceress's options were using spells that she was going to miss later or being totally useless was to just hit it in the face with my axe until it stopped twitching. On the other hand, that also meant that I normally had not just fewer spells than she did, but way fewer, because I was not just a wizard, but a wizard three caster levels behind.
The problems with anecdotal evidence:
Circumstances favor one class over another (you had three or four different favorable circumstances in favor of Wizardly casting)
Luck influence (hard to tell how the dice fell)
Player Skill Vs. Inherent Class Power (Your Sorceress didn't particularly take the lower-level spells that are useful against the mooks, while not seriously tapping resources (Summon Swarm, Summon Monster, or Flaming Sphere, for instance); nor did your Sorceress make use of her Light Crossbow proficiency; meanwhile, in playing a gish, and listing some of the quasi-loopholes you used, you give strong suspicions that you're a very mechanically skilled player).

BRC
2008-02-06, 09:51 PM
I agree with voyager, because your wizard was versitile in that circumstance does not mean that, in general, a wizard can be more flexible than a sorceror. However, I believe that there is no class that cannot be superior to another class given the right situation For example, Monks and Wizards, with high-level characters fighting, say, a spellcaster with massive spell resistance, the Monk is the superior choice, as the spell resistance won't affect him, and he has spell resistance of his own, in addition to powerful saves, that can help him against the caster in question.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-06, 10:00 PM
Of course, isn't the key issue here that Wizards are too strong, rather than Sorcerers being too weak? I mean, saying something that something isn't balanced against Wizards is kinda like Heracles is a weakling because he couldn't beat up Zeus?
Heh, yeah. Played to their strengths in reasonably common circumstances, the Wizard is generally going to have more of an ability to grab the spotlight than other classes, pretty much period.

There's exceptions - at 1st, it's mostly initiative, but a greatsword-wielding Barbarian is liable to rule.

5th-10th is about the most balanced segment of play.

11th-15th it's mostly the CoDzilla's that have the spotlight-hogging abilities.

Around 16th+, the Wizard's the fairly clear powerhouse ... when the Wizard has a reasonable idea what's coming.

Voyager_I
2008-02-06, 10:07 PM
I agree with voyager, because your wizard was versitile in that circumstance does not mean that, in general, a wizard can be more flexible than a sorceror. However, I believe that there is no class that cannot be superior to another class given the right situation For example, Monks and Wizards, with high-level characters fighting, say, a spellcaster with massive spell resistance, the Monk is the superior choice, as the spell resistance won't affect him, and he has spell resistance of his own, in addition to powerful saves, that can help him against the caster in question.

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I'm not denying that Wizards are generally stronger than Sorcerers. Rather, I"m saying that the fault lies in Wizards for being so strong, rather than in Sorcerers, who are closer to a workable level of play.

Wizards have plenty of options that don't involve Spell Resistance. The first thing that comes to mind is Summon Monster, since the Wizard can quite easily get something more dangerous than any Monk. And then turn it invisible and buff it.

...or he can just sling around Sonic Orbs while flying and invisible.

...of, if he can't do any of that, he Greater Teleports away.

Talya
2008-02-06, 11:03 PM
Using Divination to accurately know what spells you will need the next day also requires that your DM be incompetent or at the very least wrapped around your finger.

Crow
2008-02-07, 12:14 AM
I've never really understood how the divinations the wizard has available become the "OMG IDIOT THE WIZARD WILL ALWAYS KNOW WHATZ COMING!!!1). They all seem to require some sort of foreknowledge on the Wizard's part, so he knows what to look for. Then the info he can glean from it is rather limited in scope.

Unless I'm missing something huge.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-07, 12:27 AM
I've never really understood how the divinations the wizard has available become the "OMG IDIOT THE WIZARD WILL ALWAYS KNOW WHATZ COMING!!!1). They all seem to require some sort of foreknowledge on the Wizard's part, so he knows what to look for. Then the info he can glean from it is rather limited in scope.

Unless I'm missing something huge.

Personally, none of the wizards I've played have worked that way. Even with Spontaneous Divination, I can't see it working that well.

I'm playing an ECL 18 (Rogue 1/)Diviner/Unseen Seer/Archmage, with Spontaneous Divination, in this PbP game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67131). I use a lot of Divinations, but not in the way suggested; people who want to see an example of a high-level caster in play can take a look. It doesn't look like "I divine my encounters".
It looks more like "my Anticipate Teleport alerts me to an incoming enemy, I buff to make myself safe, use my high Knowledge check to find out the enemy's immunities and vulnerabilities, and hit them with a no-save spell that takes them out of the encounter".

deadseashoals
2008-02-07, 01:16 AM
He's partly right. It depends on the campaign and the player - various facets of the two will make things better or worse for one class or the other. In general, the Wizard will usually be better... but do note that if you've got two arcanists in the party, the suggestion is for one of each, not two of either. A few samples of such facets:

Player Experience:
With someone who isn't used to playing prepared casters, but has some help with spell selection, the Sorcerer is a better class. The Wizard is better if there's no help with spell selection (it's easier to re-tool a Wizard in game) or with someone who's good at using prepared casters.

Foreknowledge:
If you never know what to expect, a Sorcerer with a good spell list will generally end up doing better than a Wizard will - because the Sorcerer's "good enough" spell that he can cast more often beats "The Perfect Spell" that wasn't prepared today by the Wizard, or his "good enough" spell that he can cast once. If things are run in such a way that you usually have a pretty good idea what you'll be facing, the Wizard has "The Perfect Spell" on hand, while the Sorcerer is making do with a "good enough" spell.

Campaign Pace:
A Sorcerer is not hindered by a lack of down-time; a good night's rest and 15 minutes concentration, and a Sorcerer is good to go. The Wizard, on the other hand, needs time to add spells to a spellbook, time to make backups, and time to craft scrolls and wands for endurance needs. If the time is there, the Wizard is fine; if it's not, the Sorcerer is doing better.

Wealth Levels:
A Sorcerer is not overly hindered by a low-wealth campaign. Money for scrolls and wands of little-used spells are nice, but not required. A Sorcerer-20 with only 10 gp in equipment is at about 75% power and flexibility compared to a wealth-by-level Sorcerer-20. A Wizard-20 with 10 gp in equipment is at maybe 50% power compared to a wealth-by-level Sorcerer-20. The Sorcerer suffers less from a lack of goods than does the Wizard. If there's no real lack, this isn't much of a problem.

It depends on the campaign and the player.

It also depends on permitted sources - there are tricks by which a Sorcerer can skip his limitations entirely, if the right books are in play and the player chooses to go that route.
Edit:
For a sample of how to get around limits, look at the Desert Kobold (UA enviromental variant - trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty, looses Light Sensitivity, a few less important things), Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10 (CA)/Archmage-5 (DMG) who took some Flaws (UA) to qualify that early, grabbed the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon web enhancement) with a Bloodline Feat (Dragon Compendium). At 7th, he casts as a Sorcerer-8 - which means 4th level spells, just like the Wizard. He's got two 4th level spells that he knows inherently, and he can get any 3rd, 2nd, or 1st level PHB sor/wiz spell on a moment's notice (roughly once per day, but still...) provided it's still on his spell list (lost a few due to the Bloodline feat). Once Limited Wish is in play, he invokes Magic-Psionics transparency (XPH) twice (once to get the effect, once to have it apply to spells known instead of powers known) to use Limited Wish to Duplicate Psychic Reformation (XPH) and change up his last six levels worth of feat, skill, and spells known decisions... which will generally be the top three spell level's worth. This Sorcerer can change out his spells known in one standard action (although it costs a 7th level spell slot and 300 xp). He can even make use of Quicken Spell, thanks to the Arcane Preparation feat (CA, required for a Sorcerer to enter the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC).

QFT. Wizards are great, but sorcerers are great too. It really depends how close your wizard is allowed to get to being Schroedinger's Wizard, prepared for everything.

And Fax, ice cream is WAY awesomer than cake. You have to prepare and bake a cake, but ice cream? It's ready to go straight out of the freezer. Plus it's just so much more delicious to eat.

Solo
2008-02-07, 01:20 AM
Cake vs ice cream. Seriously.

The Cake Is A Lie!


I go with icecream.

Aerogoat
2008-02-07, 02:18 AM
I go with icecream.You clearly haven't seen an optimized "batman" cake.

A properly twinked cake's sheer chocolaty delicitude is strictly superior to any frozen melting cow emulsion.

Crow
2008-02-07, 02:24 AM
You clearly haven't seen an optimized "batman" cake.

A properly twinked cake's sheer chocolaty delicitude is strictly superior to any frozen melting cow emulsion.

Assuming you know in advance that the people you're serving like chocolate.

Voyager_I
2008-02-07, 02:30 AM
True, but almost everybody does.

John Campbell
2008-02-07, 02:38 AM
A couple of notes...

Foreknowledge: A favorable Wizard circumstance.
While you can set up a Sorcerer who can do something to prepare during down-time (Planar Binding line, mostly), by default, this is another Wizard favorable facet.

Scrolls of spells easily found and purchased: A Favorable Circumstance for Wizards.
Good thing nothing unexpected happened - had you been interrupted, you would have had some severe issues, what with being out your top two or three tiers of useful spells. Down-time: A favorable circumstance for a Wizard.

Actually, scrolls easily found and purchased is an advantage for the sorcerer. Either class can use scrolls to offset the other class's advantage, but sorcerers are dependent on being able to find and/or buy scrolls to do so, while wizards can do it out of their own resources. Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free, for starters, but beyond that, their weaknesses are different. Sorcerers need to make up for the wizard's spell selection, while wizards need to make up for the sorcerer's spells per day and ability to select spells on the spot. And you can't scribe scrolls of spells that you can't cast otherwise, so you can't expand your spell selection by scribing your own scrolls. Given the time to build up a decent library, you can, however, increase your available spells per day and on-the-spot selection with scrolls you've scribed yourself.

And, actually, scrolls weren't available, so that one goes to favorable wizard circumstances, too.

But, other than that, I'm not denying that there were advantageous circumstances, or that sorcerers do have real advantages over wizards. My point is that, given favorable circumstances - the ability to prepare properly, mainly - wizards can do a lot to offset the sorcerer's advantages, while the sorcerer's ability to offset the wizard's advantages is more limited... or at least more expensive.

On the other hand, it's also easier for circumstances, particularly when directed by a malicious DM, to cripple the wizard's advantages.


No, but consider that 27 levels of spells is nine castings - you were casting as... what, about a Wiz-11 or 12? The Sorcerer of that level is already two spells per day per spell level ahead - two 1st level spells, two 2nd level spells, two third level spells, and so on; by 5th level spells, those two extra spells per day the sorcerer has at every spell level, an equivalent-build Sorcerer is still beating you out for spell levels on that day.

The Wizard also gets spells (possibly including bonus spells) of one more spell level than the Sorcerer, at least at odd class levels. Disregarding any spells from attribute bonuses, a straight-up 11th-level Wizard with an extra 27 spell levels from mnemonic enhancer is actually only one spell level behind a straight-up 11th-level Sorcerer. If you figure in at least a +6 bonus from their appropriate attributes (which is pretty likely at that level, IME), the Wizard's actually 5 spell levels ahead, because he's getting one regular and one bonus 6th level while the Sorcerer gets more lower-level spells but no 6th level spells at all.

(Level level level level... dammit, Gygax, get a frickin' thesaurus. "Spell level" alone means two completely different things in this conversation.)

Of course, that wasn't actually the case, because I wasn't playing a straight-up Wizard... it was an effective Wizard 11 vs. an actual Sorcerer 15. (I'd only lost three caster levels - two Fighter and one EK non-casting level - but she was a character level ahead at that point, because I burned a whole lot of XP on item creation. (The item creation XP costs turn out to be temporary, in actual practice, because 3.x's XP award system is completely broken, but I happened to be on the down side of the cycle at the beginning of that encounter.))

And, yes, this is a risky strategy. I probably wouldn't have attempted it if I'd been pure wizard and unable to fall back on just hitting things with my axe with fair effectiveness if I got caught short. On the other hand, if I'd been pure wizard, I wouldn't have needed it as much.

Having the sorceress around to cover at least part of the arcanist role if I'd been caught short was reassuring, too. I remain convinced that the wizard is overall more powerful, but the classes do complement each other nicely.


... and you cast it once, maybe twice. Other than possible DC or caster level issues, a Sorcerer grabbing a scroll or two of the same spell would likely have been equally useful, or nearly so.

Scrolls actually weren't available. I copied it from a friendly (or friendly enough to be willing to sell me the privilege, anyway) NPC wizard's spellbook. Which sorcerers can't do.

Given a little more time, we could've then turned it into a scroll that she could've used... but it would've been me doing it, not her, because she a) couldn't learn the spell, which is necessary to make a scroll of it, and b) didn't have Scribe Scroll anyway, which I got for free at Wizard 1 (though actually never used... my character was morally opposed to making things that wouldn't last roughly forever, so I never produced any one-shot or charged items, and seldom even bought any).

And, "Yeah, the wizard can make scrolls for you, so you can cast some of the spells that he knows," is kind of damning the sorcerer with faint praise here.


The problems with anecdotal evidence:
Circumstances favor one class over another (you had three or four different favorable circumstances in favor of Wizardly casting)
Luck influence (hard to tell how the dice fell)
Player Skill Vs. Inherent Class Power (Your Sorceress didn't particularly take the lower-level spells that are useful against the mooks, while not seriously tapping resources (Summon Swarm, Summon Monster, or Flaming Sphere, for instance);

Actually, I'm sure that flaming sphere was on her list... I recall her setting a ship (full of innocent people that we were supposed to be rescuing!) on fire with it once. She took just about everything that had "fire" or "flame" in the name. (Yeah, she was a total blaster. So was I. Save or lose spells are for wusses.) She'd pretty much stopped using it in favor of scorching ray by that point, though.


nor did your Sorceress make use of her Light Crossbow proficiency;

By that point in the game, there is no use for the light crossbow proficiency, unless you've put a lot of resources into your crossbow. With half BAB progression, you'll never hit anything in the first place (especially if you're trying to shoot into melee), and even if you do roll a nat 20, even the mooks are quite likely to have enough DR to bounce your bolts. And there are almost always better things to do with those resources... like just get a wand of magic missile, which does only a little less damage even at CL 1, never misses, isn't subject to DR, and damages incorporeal creatures (and all the time, not just 50%).

Of course, she didn't do that, either. I think part of that was just that she'd just never before had to consider what to do when she ran out of spells, while I, with even fewer spells available than a straight-up wizard, had been facing the prospect of conserving or running dry in pretty much every fight since day one, and had developed strategies that made me still effective either way... one of them being not being a straight-up caster.


meanwhile, in playing a gish, and listing some of the quasi-loopholes you used, you give strong suspicions that you're a very mechanically skilled player).

Probably. 3.x is fairly new to me - I've only been playing for a little over a year - but I've been playing RPGs and wargames in general for a quarter-century now... started with the original red box Basic D&D set. I can also do math without using a calculator or even my fingers, which seems to be a rare skill amongst the younger gamers.

Zenos
2008-02-07, 02:52 AM
Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time

Spell Mastery, look, I bought a new spellbook by using major creation to fake some gold!

Leon
2008-02-07, 03:04 AM
Cake vs ice cream. Seriously.

Pie? Do Not Read This White Text

Rutee
2008-02-07, 03:07 AM
Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time

99% of DMs also recognize the BADONG that is utterly destroying a character's capabilities.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-07, 03:09 AM
OT: I like Icecream Cakes which probably makes me an Ultimate Magus man.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-07, 03:27 AM
Don't forget that the wizard gets 2 spells free at each level.

True but most wizard PCs don't like being limited to so few spells in game.

I'd try to take the Collegiate Wizard feat from Complete Arcane since it would increase the standard base spells each level from 2 to 4.

deadseashoals
2008-02-07, 04:25 AM
True but most wizard PCs don't like being limited to so few spells in game.

I'd try to take the Collegiate Wizard feat from Complete Arcane since it would increase the standard base spells each level from 2 to 4.

Indeed, if you only get to use the spells you learn from leveling up, you're pretty much worse than a sorcerer in every way, except for the bonus feats. There's enough ways to alleviate the metamagic issue that it's, well, not an issue.

Leon
2008-02-07, 06:24 AM
The thing i like about Sorcerers over wizards is the tighter choice of spells, i don't want to have a big book of spells that i have to choose what i think may be right for the day out of - id rather a small tight list that ive chosen to suit what i think will be of best use.

True that it can't cover "all" the bases that may occur but a smart choice can still allow capable handling of a situation.

Example: my first 3rd lvl spell is Always Dispel magic as i see the capability for that spell to be often useful - YMMV, as it always does
Along those sames lines i will almost always take Baleful Polymorph as i like the spell for altogther unrealated game reasons

Triaxx
2008-02-07, 07:51 AM
Just because you are a sorcerer doesn't mean you blast.
My current sorcerer has 1 "blasting" spell. At level 10.
Very much a utility / buffing sorcerer.

I never said it meant you had to blast, only that it meant you could blast more effectively than a wizard. A wizard prepares what he's going to blast with. I can blast, or I can decide to buff, I don't have to worry about not facing a blasting situation and ending up sitting back from the fight. I can still be helpful by just swapping to buffing, unlike the wizard who sits and crys because every enemy is immune to his blasting spells.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-07, 08:52 AM
Any wizard worth his salt is going to take protective measures against this. There are also such things as a tattoo spellbook and similar feats and alternative class features that make it more difficult (if not impossible) for a spellbook to be taken or destroyed.
Unless he is playing in my friend's campaign, meaning that no matter what he does, the spellbook will vanish in thin air when he decides to destroy everyone's equipment.
Having a spare hidden may work, unless my friend decides to throw everyone, naked, in another plane, without access to teleport or planar spells (he did it once, really).

Corolinth
2008-02-07, 04:25 PM
99% of DMs also recognize the BADONG that is utterly destroying a character's capabilities.If your class has a drawback, you get to deal with it.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-07, 04:51 PM
If your class has a drawback, you get to deal with it.

Yes. Like sending only flying monsters against barbarians. Or golems against rogues. Or, what in Sparta's stopping you from filling your campaign with huge antimagic fields, so the wizard has to deal with them.

Voyager_I
2008-02-07, 04:56 PM
If your class has a drawback, you get to deal with it.

No, you prepare for it. Melee classes get themselves access to flying and carry ranged weapons, Rogues pick feats to diversify their Sneak Attacks, and Wizards take preposterous amounts of precautions with their Spellbooks, because they can and because, being played as real people, they're fully aware and afraid of how much trouble they're in without it.

If a DM goes out of his way to screw with each of you in turn, overpowering the reasonable (or unreasonable) amount of fallback measures you have in place, then your DM is being unrealistic and cruel.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-07, 04:57 PM
As a wizard, I can spend a few hundred GP and a couple thousand XP to permanency various protective spells on my spellbook, carry around duplicates to foil thieves, and generally annoy the DM with my paranoia, or I can ignore it and assume he'll do the same because such a thing is easier than everyone.

Mike_G
2008-02-07, 07:19 PM
The power difference isn't that huge, and probably does favor the Wizard, but this is a game, not you retirement savings, so a few points of optimization, give or take, shouldn't keep you up at night.

I prefer to play Sorcerers, simply for ease of bookkeeping, and the fact that not having a spell in my list sends me into less of a rage than having it in my book but not having it prepared.

As far as direct comparison, the Wizard has more spells to choose from each day, but the Sorcerer has more slots. Not many, but definitely more. Practically, it's pretty much a guarantee that some of the Wizard's slots will be filled with wrong or suboptimal spells, so practically the useful spells per day advantage is to the Sorcerer.

Plus, the ability to add metamagic as needed, and not at the time of preparation, means that you can always Heighten, Extend or Maximize the right spell, and feats like Energy Substitution on can make many of your smaller arsenal of Spells Known do double duty.

I totally disagree with the idea that a Sorcerer should specialize as a blaster. A Sorcerer can and should diversify, and with some planning can be effective in most situations. You only really need a few good Save or suck/lose/die spells, a few attack spells, and the indispensable utility and buff spells.

The gaps, you fill with scrolls and wands, same as the Wizards.

Yes, the Wizard technically has some advantages in bonus feats, Scribe Scroll, and spell selection, but not enough to outweigh the ease of play of the Sorcerer.

Yami
2008-02-07, 08:10 PM
Sorcerers do have one great advantage.
Take 1 Wizard, take his spell-book away and burn it in front of him.
Watch him cry, Congratulations Level 20 commoner with a high will save!

Take a Sorcerer, look ma! No Spellbook!
However in 99% of DM's never pull this meaning that it goes to the Wizard every time
Actually, if a DM was doing this right, he'd want to hit all characters just as hard. This means some permanent wither limb for the non casters, burning the wizards spellbook, and taking the sorcerer's brain.

At least as a sorcerer you get to roll up a new character.


Assuming you know in advance that the people you're serving like chocolate.

True, but almost everybody does.
I do not. His batman cake has chocolate, batman was not prepared. He FAILS!

So I must now throw in with the sorcerer.

Point 1.
The sorcerer loses nothing from taking a PrC. Granted the wizard doesn't lose much, just a few feats and some familiar progression, but still it's a point.

Point 2.
Versatile spell caster. With but one feat I can front load my and alpha strike with more oompf than any equal level wizard, as long as we're at an odd level. This makes days with few encounters go smoothly.

I beleive a good number of other pionts, such as less book keeping, greater use of metamagic, etc. have already been pionted out, so I'll just move on to...

Point 12 or what have you.
Racial bonuses. Kobolds, Dragons, and a few others kindly heighten you effective spell level as a sorcerer, I know of no race that boosts your wizard level in a like manner.

Point final.
Wizards never struck me as all that cool, concept wise. Granted as a wizard one can been the laws of reality to your whimsym but so can a sorcerer, they just do it naturally, rather than after a year working as a janitor for some wizend old guy. And then rather than just up and telling physics to sit down, you have to copy everything down into a book because you keep forgetting all these nifty powers once you use them, and while you haven't used them they just sit there, cluttering up you mind, turning your massive intellect to merely that of another gamer. Worse yet, it's a class that's all study. Meanwhile a sorcerer bends reality to thier will until then can bend no more. Than they take a short nap and begin again.

KoDT69
2008-02-07, 09:26 PM
Count me in for Sorcerer as well. I agree totally with Yami that the studious old fart in the pointy hat is a lame and way way WAY overused cliche. The Sorcerer gets more spells per day and can never lose his spellbook or whatever else that could deny his spellcasting ability. I would recommend the quick metamagic variant, but I play heavily houseruled games anyway. We give the Sorcerer double his spells known, a bonus feat at level 1-5-10-15-20 as the Wizard, and allow spontaneous casting to be metamagiced the same as a prepared caster. This makes the only real difference between them is less spells & more selection versus more spells and less selection. I also allow custom blasty spells to be cast without needing to know the spell or have it scribed in a book. I let them replicate fireball with electricity or even change the shape to match flame strike or whatever. There is a chart in the DMG that gives arcane and divine spell dice damage and then a list of ranges (line, cone, or blast). Only the blast is 100ft range +10 per level. Just choose spell level, apply number of die per the chart, energy type (only the 5 basics), and shape of the area of effect! We all know blasting is so sub-optimal it's not funny, so let them have it free and use resources for the good stuff, like Break Enchantment and Overland Flight! Oh I guess even at my game table a Wizard can have his spellbook torched and still have a wide variety of blasting the next day anyway! I also give all casters Eschew Materials and Ignore Material Components free at 1st level. Only components required are for the game-breaking spells, and only if they are abused to incur my attention. :smallsmile: Anybody think I'm too easy on the Sorcerer?

If you think about it, the Wizard is the one with no talent to has to keep working at it, and the Sorcerer is the natural talent. Why shouldn't he be better at it? Really. Michael Jordan was a natural. He ruled the court. Larry Byrd.... yeah. I'm suprised he could keep a contract. The natural talent has more potential then the one who has to work at it just to compete.

marjan
2008-02-07, 09:30 PM
If you think about it, the Wizard is the one with no talent to has to keep working at it, and the Sorcerer is the natural talent. Why shouldn't he be better at it? Really. Michael Jordan was a natural. He ruled the court. Larry Byrd.... yeah. I'm suprised he could keep a contract. The natural talent has more potential then the one who has to work at it just to compete.

Do you really think that Michael Jordan and Larry Byrd didn't work hard? Sure they were talented, but it would be wasted if they didn't work.

KoDT69
2008-02-07, 09:33 PM
Sure, but Larry had to work much harder to still be the less effective player. Jordan could have taken it easy and still dribbled circles around most of the players out there (back in his prime anyway).

marjan
2008-02-07, 09:39 PM
Sure, but Larry had to work much harder to still be the less effective player. Jordan could have taken it easy and still dribbled circles around most of the players out there (back in his prime anyway).

Larry needed more training, yes, but so do wizards. Look at starting ages. Wizards start older than sorcerers.

KoDT69
2008-02-07, 09:49 PM
OK so we agree :smallsmile:

I just liked the idea of the Sorcerer because he didn't have to work so hard. He can go out to the tavern and abuse his charm spells and massive CHA score while the old fart is stuck in his tower summoning Succubi... wait a minute... :smalleek:

Sucrose
2008-02-07, 11:19 PM
OK so we agree :smallsmile:

I just liked the idea of the Sorcerer because he didn't have to work so hard. He can go out to the tavern and abuse his charm spells and massive CHA score while the old fart is stuck in his tower summoning Succubi... wait a minute... :smalleek:

By the same token, though, while the Sorcerer doesn't work as hard to gain his powers, I've always thought that him using them requires more effort, as rather than using an abstraction to simplify things, he essentially forces the universe to sit down and shut up by sheer will.

On Topic: I also prefer sorcerers, though I acknowledge a wizard's superior badassitude. It's less hassle, and I think the fluff on sorcerers is a bit more flexible. Both have magic powers, but one has to have gone through mucho study, while the other's abilities could've manifested in any number of ways.

Rutee
2008-02-07, 11:28 PM
Oh right, the debate at large. I like Wizards better, but that's just me. They make Hot Librarians with very little jobbing :P

Fizban
2008-02-08, 12:33 AM
Another very very important thing to note about higher levels is quicken spell metamagic.
Even with the PHB2 alternative class feature, the sorcerer is still limited to using it only 3+ int times a day. 3+ int times a day at an extra action in a round, that is.
I'm a little late, but there's two feats that beat that: one that works for a single metamagic feat of your choice, and one that works for all spells all the time. The latter can be qualified for at 9th level, conveniently one level before you actually have any spell slots to make it useful. And it's prerequisites are knowledge arcana and spellcraft. And this isn't counting the aforementioned Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion, though those will burn more precious spells known. Yeah WoTC kinda realized it was a big nerf after a while, and set up a few outs.

Solo
2008-02-08, 12:44 AM
OK so we agree :smallsmile:

I just liked the idea of the Sorcerer because he didn't have to work so hard. He can go out to the tavern and abuse his charm spells and massive CHA score while the old fart is stuck in his tower summoning Succubi... wait a minute... :smalleek:

Negative levels stack, so always be sure to use protection.

Reinboom
2008-02-08, 01:26 AM
I'm a little late, but there's two feats that beat that: one that works for a single metamagic feat of your choice, and one that works for all spells all the time. The latter can be qualified for at 9th level, conveniently one level before you actually have any spell slots to make it useful. And it's prerequisites are knowledge arcana and spellcraft. And this isn't counting the aforementioned Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion, though those will burn more precious spells known. Yeah WoTC kinda realized it was a big nerf after a while, and set up a few outs.

The 9th level one would be Rapid Metamagic.
However, that still costs a feat.
And worse, it means you can't actually take advantage of it until 12th level, when you finally get Quicken Spell.
Unless you sit on a dead feat for awhile or arrange your prestige classes to nab you a bonus feat in a unique manner.

It helps, but no where near validates it.

RedShift zX
2008-02-08, 01:55 AM
I agree on the fluff subject...Sorcerer > Wizard..

But that raises the question...

Wheres the uber-naturally talented "Sorcerer" who study's like a wizard? Wheres that guy?

Also, i think its pretty rediculous that Sorcs' get no bonus feats whatsoever...

marjan
2008-02-08, 05:45 AM
Wheres the uber-naturally talented "Sorcerer" who study's like a wizard? Wheres that guy?


Ultimate Magus (CM).

Jack_Simth
2008-02-08, 06:58 AM
I'm a little late, but there's two feats that beat that: one that works for a single metamagic feat of your choice, and one that works for all spells all the time. The latter can be qualified for at 9th level, conveniently one level before you actually have any spell slots to make it useful. And it's prerequisites are knowledge arcana and spellcraft. And this isn't counting the aforementioned Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion, though those will burn more precious spells known. Yeah WoTC kinda realized it was a big nerf after a while, and set up a few outs.
Try Arcane Preparation (CA) available at level 1. Lets you prepare spells in advance "just like a Wizard". Okay, it takes two feats to make use of Quicken Spell, while it takes the Wizard one, but it still works.

Yami
2008-02-08, 07:02 AM
Finally someone's got a good point for the wizard's side of the arguement. Thanks Rutee.

Sadly, few sorcerers go U-magus thanks to the beguiler's introduction to the game. I think the studious Sorcerer is the incantatrix, who can learn how to cast a quickened defenestrating sphere with no spell level adjustment. Granted that's at level 16, but still, I like it.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-02-08, 01:17 PM
aaa Yes the grand 'ol debate wizard vs sorc. My vote must go to wizards. As they are the true masters of the universe. However that does come down to fluff.
also to note i usualy play core or FR most of the time.

Fluff wise i love wizards. People who study endlessly to weave arcane might makes me happy.


Plus when ever i look at the sorcs all i see is Diablo... which makes me sad. Seems to me that
WoTC added sorcs to please that group of players.

Althought i have seen afew sorc chars that play the wizard high and mighty, you don't know any thing about the universe types. I find it kinda lame... as why not just play a wizard, cuz you get more spells per day .... psh... L2book keep...

Reinboom
2008-02-08, 01:42 PM
You get less spell per day as a wizard you mean.
Just more spells 'known'.

Also, I like playing the studied spellcaster. Even the pretty yet geeky high charisma librarian.
Just because you may default a stereotype to one class, does not mean it fits another perfectly fine. You can have a smart sorcerer, and, it's not uncommon given their need for skill points to do a lot.
Wizards however, generally dump charisma in my experiences. Good luck getting along with that librarian.

I'm a bit biased, here, however. I can't stand the wizards' mechanics, though, I like the fluff.

Collin152
2008-02-08, 05:44 PM
Negative levels stack, so always be sure to use protection.

Well, at least I have a decent constitution score, so I can keep it up longer without having too much to worry about.
Oh, and that line wins.

KIDS
2008-02-08, 06:44 PM
Even the argument about Sorcerer having more spells per day dies pretty quickly when you put things in moving averages and Wizard's faster spell progression eats into the difference at an absurd rate, making the actual gap about only 15% or so. Which of course... sucks for the Sorcerer. And that's not even including specializations and focused specializations! :(

p.s. anyways, my opinion: The sorcerer is both significantly weaker and more poorly designed than the wizard, but I still prefer the sorcerer and it's intended flavor, it just seems more magical.

Collin152
2008-02-08, 06:52 PM
I'd like sorcerers more if they got special abilities besides a familiar.

Saph
2008-02-08, 06:59 PM
The main argument in favour of the Sorcerer: less paperwork.

A 15th-level specialist Wizard has somewhere around fifty spell slots per day, and God only knows how many spells in his spellbook to choose between. Sure, flexibility is good, but unless you are an absolute and total geek, the Geek of Geekiness, you will get really sick of redoing your spell list multiple times per session. Whereas with a Sorcerer, you can put some thought into your spell choice at level up, and forget about it the rest of the time.

The players who do best with Wizards tend to be the ones who max out on the nerd-ometer and actually enjoy doing things like drawing up standardised lists of spells for combat/travel/social interaction. Most players don't have the patience, which is why I rarely see mid- to high-level wizards used effectively in actual play. Not that I can really blame them.

- Saph

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 07:02 PM
The players who do best with Wizards tend to be the ones who max out on the nerd-ometer and actually enjoy doing things like drawing up standardised lists of spells for combat/travel/social interaction.

Frankly, my day-to-day spell list doesn't change very much at a time. If it does need a lot of revision, it's still far from all the slots, and it doesn't take very long.

Collin152
2008-02-08, 07:02 PM
The main argument in favour of the Sorcerer: less paperwork.

A 15th-level specialist Wizard has somewhere around fifty spell slots per day, and God only knows how many spells in his spellbook to choose between. Sure, flexibility is good, but unless you are an absolute and total geek, the Geek of Geekiness, you will get really sick of redoing your spell list multiple times per session. Whereas with a Sorcerer, you can put some thought into your spell choice at level up, and forget about it the rest of the time.

The players who do best with Wizards tend to be the ones who max out on the nerd-ometer and actually enjoy doing things like drawing up standardised lists of spells for combat/travel/social interaction. Most players don't have the patience, which is why I rarely see mid- to high-level wizards used effectively in actual play. Not that I can really blame them.

- Saph

Or you could pre-prepare spells to prepare depending on the situation. Wilderness spells, city spells, underground spells, traveling spells, incognito spells, et cetra.

Saph
2008-02-08, 07:19 PM
Frankly, my day-to-day spell list doesn't change very much at a time. If it does need a lot of revision, it's still far from all the slots, and it doesn't take very long.

Case in point, oh Writes-Posts-Full-Of-Strategy-Advice-For-Fun. :P

- Saph

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 07:22 PM
Case in point, oh Writes-Posts-Full-Of-Strategy-Advice-For-Fun. :P

- Saph

A touch, a touch, I do confess't.