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Lizardfolk Lich
2008-02-06, 04:11 PM
How would one go about it? You are up to a level 17 ___________ <---insert the class of your choice. It can be undead/human/anything, you are evil however, and you have about 100k to do it. How would you create an army of at least 500?

EDIT: CORE ONLY!!!

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-06, 04:15 PM
Dread Necromancer with the Corpsecrafter tree.

*Insert obligatory amounts of minions here*

You can even have undead medics with Spell-Stitching Revive Undead and using Geas'd mooks to burn the XP for you.

Raider
2008-02-06, 04:21 PM
Put a notice in a local tavern, hello adventurers

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-06, 04:22 PM
Honestly, why? Any case where 500 men would be more effective than 100, the Locate City bomb is even better.

That being said, Sorcerer 17, maxed Diplomacy and Charisma, cheese it out so that you get about a +70 bonus(spells, items, feats, and a bardic cohort inspiring you), and turn everyone you meet into a fanatic. That should make them enlist for free.

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-02-06, 04:24 PM
Sorry guys, I forgot to add that this is Core only.:smallredface:

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-06, 04:26 PM
I would go Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5.

I would cast Shapechange.
I would turn into a Zodar.
I would use my Supernatural Wish to Wish for a Scroll of Gate at CL 440.
I would Shapechange into a Lilitu.
I would use my Item Use extraordinary ability to auto succeed on the UMD check to use my CL 440 Scroll of Gate.
I would Gate in 20 Solars.
I would order every solar to not resist any spells I cast on them and lower all their defenses to my spells.
I would cast a Chained Mind Rape that hits all 20 Solars.
I would reprogram them to be extra loyal to me and do whatever I say.
I would order them to use their Wish SLA to transport themselves to me as soon as the gate spell ends.


I would wait 1 day and then order 4 Solars to use their Wish SLA's to Wish for Scrolls of Gate at CL 1,560.
I would gate in 20 Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons.
I would order them not to resist any spell I cast on them in any way.
I would chain mind rape them to be extra loyal.

Repeat until you have as many of whatever that you want.
-----
I think 500 Solars, each riding a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon would be a good army.


Total Cost in GP: 0 GP
Total Cost in XP: 0 XP

I win?

shaggz076
2008-02-06, 04:28 PM
Well there would be some easy ways to do this. Myself, I would go with a Wizard. I would take the spell Mineralize Warrior as well as the Create undead Warrior (or something like that) Spell. I would find a den of kobolds and through some clever suggestions and charming, convince them to make me their leader. Once I have become their leader I would have all of the able bodied males imbued with the Mineralize warrior spell thus ensuring their loyalty to me and making them damn tough to boot. Drop some rumors of a mysterious treasure hidden within the kobolds lair. Once some foolish adventurers arrive on-scene to claim the treasure, have your little stone beasties take them out. Then pick through the bodies of the fallen adventurers for the best ones available. Use the Create undead warrior to make your intelligent, loyal and tough undead, the fighter types are then as well subjected to the mineralize warrior spell making them even tougher undead servants. Only magic users of sufficiently high levels will be raised. The ones that are will be taught "mass" boosts like bulls strength and the like as well as Animate dead so they can also raise their own dead, sufficiently loyal to me through proxy. So once that is done I would have an army of about 500 mineral Kobolds, 2 - 5 Undead champions, 2 - 5 Undead Mages and about 20 - 30 Skeletons controlled by my undead Mages.

Add to all this by taking the leadership feat to gain a mass of evil wizards under my dark tutelage and i'd be set!

AKA_Bait
2008-02-06, 04:29 PM
Evil Cleric. Create Greater Undead. Say hello to my army of Wraiths and Shadows. Maybe a few undead that can operate in daylight to serve as of hour guards.

Zenos
2008-02-06, 04:32 PM
Evil Cleric. Create Greater Undead. Say hello to my army of Wraiths and Shadows. Maybe a few undead that can operate in daylight to serve as of hour guards.

Ah yes, a lot of wraiths in a chain of command leading up to you...

DementedFellow
2008-02-06, 04:36 PM
Okay this is not core, but I think it would be extremely fun.

Druid and cast Beget Bogun repeatedly. You need to be at least level 7 and have the Create Wondrous Item feat. Sure it will take forever, 500 weeks for 500 minions, and it has an XP cost (12500) But when you are 17th level that XP isn't much. The Boguns are weak but I imagine 500 coming at you will be a sight. They are tiny and will obey you.

So if you can convince your DM that you spent 10 years doing nothing but creating a small army of slaves, then enjoy.

Goober4473
2008-02-06, 04:42 PM
I would use my Supernatural Wish to Wish for a Scroll of Gate at CL 440.

How is this not beyond the power of a 9th level spell? Wish isn't infinite power. It can't even copy the gate spell normally, let alone make a scroll of it at a higher caster level than the caster of wish.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-06, 04:45 PM
How is this not beyond the power of a 9th level spell? Wish isn't infinite power. It can't even copy the gate spell normally, let alone make a scroll of it at a higher caster level than the caster of wish.

Actually it can.

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

Wish can, by RAW, create any magic item you want.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-06, 04:49 PM
How would one go about it? You are up to a level 17 ___________ <---insert the class of your choice. It can be undead/human/anything, you are evil however, and you have about 100k to do it. How would you create an army of at least 500?
There's a couple simple methods - Core, even:

1) Nongood Cleric with Leadership and Brew Potion.
Clerics get Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell. For the Cleric, it meets all requirements for being made into an oil. When applying an oil, the thing the oil is applied to is considered the target, the thing doing the applying is considered the caster, and the oil's caster level is used - for Animate Dead, this means that each one of those followers gets to use the Cleric's caster level for purposes of controlled undead - which means, if you set it up right, every one of your followers can have around 68 HD in mindless undead under their direct command; if they follow orders, that means those 68 HD per follower are under your indirect command. Should do the job, no?
2) Rebuking Cleric with the Magic domain and a Wand of Enervation (can also be done by way of Use Magic Device, or a Mystic Theurge, or Create Greater Undead - you need to be able to use a Wand of Enervation, and be able to Rebuke/Command as a Cleric-8).
Cleric zaps the Wand of Enervation at a Commoner-1 (killing it with negative levels), and leaves the body in a cage until it turns into a Wight (hereafter referred to as "Prime Wight"). Cleric then Commands the Prime Wight, and has it Slam an arbitrary number of commoner-1's, which then die and rise as Wights under the command of the Prime Wight. Prime Wight controls the others directly, you control Prime Wight. Arbitrarily large army, at your service. You can also do this with most other forms of self-replicating undead, but the Wights are the easiest ones to make on demand at the lowest level. As a Cleric-17, though, you've got the option of Create Greater Undead for a Shadow or Wraith to start things off. A Spectre, too, if you get an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for the +1 caster level boost; the key being that you can Command the undead you create, the undead has the Create Spawn ability, and you can feed it an arbitrary number of commoners. You can also skip the wand entirely and just use Miracle to duplicte it.

Those are the two easiest no-fudging Core methods.

A Wizard or Sorcerer can find someone who has a suitable army, kill the leader, and make a suitable Simulacrum of said leader. Again - Caster controls the leader permanently and utterly, leader controls everyone else.

You can also just hire one. A Mercenary Leader is 3 sp per Warrior level per day (you also have to equip them - C'est la vie), and regular Mercenaries (Warrior-1's) are 2 sp/day. If you purchase Greatswords (50 each) and Scale Mail (50 gp each, +4 AC) for one half, Hide Armor (15 gp), a Longbow (75 gp), and 200 arrows (10 gp) each for the other half (100 gp per mercenary in equipment - theoretically, you get the equipment back afterwards), you can hire a 500 man army of Warrior-1's (50,000 gp in equipment start-up costs) for 100 gp/day plus food costs. The remaining 50,000 gp of your budget after the equipment costs will pay them for 500 days (well, less than that, as you're footing the bill for their meals - still....).

Indon
2008-02-06, 04:53 PM
Hmm. For an interesting, somewhat flavorful army without blatantly stupid cheese...

Straight cleric. Pump Rebuke Undead. Find one vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), one wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm), and one wight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm) and Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#evilClericsandUndead) them. Go around almost killing 1 HD humanoids and letting your wraith and wight finish them, and vampire spawn for good measure.

Mind that only your Wight forces are viable in daylight, so rely on them more than you do your wraiths and vampires. Keep your commander undead away from the battle, because your command structure is very vulnerable.

Be very wary of the fact that Vampires can gain class levels, which raises their HD. If your master vampire is a couple levels from breaking from your control, command him to gather and slay all his spawn and then destroy him.

Edit: For good measure, feel free to mix and match with hired mortals that you inflict with lycanthropy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#wererat) - Wererat is a good choice because they innately tend towards lawful evil, making order easier in the ranks.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-06, 04:56 PM
Actually it can.


Wish can, by RAW, create any magic item you want.

No. It can only create 'a magic item'. It doesn't say 'any magic item', not does it say which magic item it creates. :p

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-06, 05:03 PM
Be very wary of the fact that Vampires can gain class levels, which raises their HD. If your master vampire is a couple levels from breaking from your control, command him to gather and slay all his spawn and then destroy him.

Which is why I'm fond of an Energy Transformation Field bound to a Command Undead. Have a standing order that your vampire buddy is to walk into the field and every so often and activate a uses-per-day item with enough power to activate the field to cast Command Undead on him. Combine with an order to fail his will save against the effect of your Energy Transformation Field's Command Undead spell and you're in the clear in regard to the vampire's HD.

Of course, this is a wizard trick, not a cleric trick... and Energy Transformation Field is in the SpC, so it's non-core.

Indon
2008-02-06, 05:08 PM
Which is why I'm fond of an Energy Transformation Field bound to a Command Undead. Have a standing order that your vampire buddy is to walk into the field and every so often and activate a uses-per-day item with enough power to activate the field to cast Command Undead on him. Combine with an order to fail his will save against the effect of your Energy Transformation Field's Command Undead spell and you're in the clear in regard to the vampire's HD.

Of course, this is a wizard trick, not a cleric trick... and Energy Transformation Field is in the SpC, so it's non-core.

Plus, it's the cheese intricacy factor is awfully high. My army is simple, clean, easy cheese.

Oh, and one addendum: Mind that your commanded undead don't count for your Animate Dead limit, so anything you happen to kill with a good HD count can make for a good skeleton/zombie.

Another addendum: Make skeletons. Zombies only get one standard or move action each round.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-06, 05:24 PM
Plus, it's the cheese intricacy factor is awfully high. My army is simple, clean, easy cheese.

Oh, and one addendum: Mind that your commanded undead don't count for your Animate Dead limit, so anything you happen to kill with a good HD count can make for a good skeleton/zombie.

I like the intricacy factor. It's more fun that way.

Okay... core-only. Well, I'm a big fan of simulacra so let's work those in with some animate dead spells. 16th-level wizard. Make a simulacrum of yourself and you've got the best minion ever -- you! He'll do exactly what you ask, which of course will be to cast animate dead up to his HD limit. Repeat as desired.

For a superior method, one could hire the services of someone else capable of casting silmulacrum to make clones of your evil self, thus allowing a 10th-level cleric to use this method to make 5th-level copies to cast animate dead.

ChaosDefender24
2008-02-06, 10:33 PM
+1 for the spectre chain of command
If you're doing non-core, locate city/AftS bomb + fell drain and then mop up

Cuddly
2008-02-06, 10:38 PM
Chains are dangerous. For every wight that falls on the battlefield, you lose control of dozens.

MeklorIlavator
2008-02-06, 10:44 PM
No. It can only create 'a magic item'. It doesn't say 'any magic item', not does it say which magic item it creates. :p

And this means that it can't make a scroll why? You ask it to create a specific item, and it does.

Voyager_I
2008-02-06, 11:02 PM
Chains are dangerous. For every wight that falls on the battlefield, you lose control of dozens.

No chains there. All the Wights are under the command of a single Ur-Wight, which in turn answers directly to you. Keep the big boy by your side, and everything is dandy.

kirbsys
2008-02-07, 12:11 AM
Right then... off the top of my head? I'd become a vampire. Go get the max number of thralls, make them get their max number of thralls, they all go out. Multi-level marketing schemes FTW! The only problem is that a single one of me "lieutenants" gets knocked out I suddenly am looking at a large portion of my army getting knocked out.

Other ideas: Get a powerful cohort, he takes leadership as well getting his own cohort, this continues until they are too low of level to take any more cohorts. Now then, they would all be wizards, thus I buy quite a few wands of raise dead and find a Very large grave yard. They raise an enormous amount of undead, all of which answer to the cohorts who answer to me. The only problem once again being that if my cohort gets taken out, the entire army is gone.

Final Idea: Mix of both. Only vampirize wizards/clerics that have/can cast raise dead thus I get large amounts of vampires and undead.

kirbsys
2008-02-07, 12:12 AM
Chains are dangerous. For every wight that falls on the battlefield, you lose control of dozens.

However those wight would much rather fight human enemies than other undead. Case point: Zombies. They never attack each other no matter how hungry they get, however humans get attacked on sight.

Cuddly
2008-02-07, 01:21 AM
However those wight would much rather fight human enemies than other undead. Case point: Zombies. They never attack each other no matter how hungry they get, however humans get attacked on sight.

Do you really think the existence of a bunch of wights, regardless of who is controlling them and what they're doing (aka, "gee, I don't feel like dying twice today" and leaving), actually counts as an army?

Hario
2008-02-07, 02:26 AM
Evil Cleric Create Create Undead, make a shadow, and an allip, Divide a city, let them lose, knock out anyone who tries to kill the allip. Strategy, have the allip constantly touching the subject till its wisdom is drained, send in squad of shadows to harvest the creatures. After a Campy movie Profit! A City of ridiculous CR3s. Of course you can always make wights but Shadows are mobile.

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-07, 04:32 AM
Do you really think the existence of a bunch of wights, regardless of who is controlling them and what they're doing (aka, "gee, I don't feel like dying twice today" and leaving), actually counts as an army?

Yes, because those wights are under your control and are more than capable of slaughtering an arbiturary amount of Warrior-1's.

Cuddly
2008-02-07, 05:06 AM
No chains there. All the Wights are under the command of a single Ur-Wight, which in turn answers directly to you. Keep the big boy by your side, and everything is dandy.

What good is that, then? Besides the geometric growth of your army, which is only possible if wight one makes wight two and three, who each in turn make wights four and five, and five ans six, respectively, you'll only have one wight that gets to do any killin' with slam attacks.

I guess if you want a bunch of undead creatures with swords, it'll work.

Cuddly
2008-02-07, 05:08 AM
Yes, because those wights are under your control and are more than capable of slaughtering an arbiturary amount of Warrior-1's.

Did you leave a word out of there? My point was that very few of those wights would actually be under your control, since the master wights would die.

Though, if you just used Command Undead on every wight that wasn't under your direct control, problem solved.



Man, I would love to make a stochastic model for this.

Lyinginbedmon
2008-02-07, 05:26 AM
Given that you're undead or otherwise long-lived, the Monstrous Workforce should do the trick.

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-07, 05:26 AM
Master wights? I think you mean Master Wight, which remains wherever you are. If it dies, then you're probably dead as well, so the point would be moot.

Cuddly
2008-02-07, 05:32 AM
Master wights? I think you mean Master Wight, which remains wherever you are. If it dies, then you're probably dead as well, so the point would be moot.

But what about all the wights he created? If anyone of them uses their negative energy slam attacks, they now have wights under their control. And if that wight dies, there's now a wight out there with no one controlling it.

DementedFellow
2008-02-07, 05:36 AM
Found the simplest way.

Geas any person or creature you meet. Word it in such a way that they will forever serve you. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm

No XP cost. If you were just find a way to cut down on that casting time, it could be easily reproducible.

This cuts down on being undead, which has some drawbacks and not everyone wants to be evil. Granted you are bending dozens upon dozens to your will, so you're most likely not LG.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-07, 11:12 AM
I would go Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5.

I would cast Shapechange.
I would turn into a Zodar.
I would use my Supernatural Wish to Wish for a Scroll of Gate at CL 440.
I would Shapechange into a Lilitu.
I would use my Item Use extraordinary ability to auto succeed on the UMD check to use my CL 440 Scroll of Gate.
I would Gate in 20 Solars.
I would order every solar to not resist any spells I cast on them and lower all their defenses to my spells.
I would cast a Chained Mind Rape that hits all 20 Solars.
I would reprogram them to be extra loyal to me and do whatever I say.
I would order them to use their Wish SLA to transport themselves to me as soon as the gate spell ends.


I would wait 1 day and then order 4 Solars to use their Wish SLA's to Wish for Scrolls of Gate at CL 1,560.
I would gate in 20 Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons.
I would order them not to resist any spell I cast on them in any way.
I would chain mind rape them to be extra loyal.

Repeat until you have as many of whatever that you want.
-----
I think 500 Solars, each riding a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon would be a good army.


Total Cost in GP: 0 GP
Total Cost in XP: 0 XP

I win?

Very Doubtful since the OP limited the options to Core and the time of his last Edit is before your post (close enough that you might have been typing a response from the original) so the real test for this theory is using it with numerous DMs familiar with the rules of the game.

IMO a good standard that this would be a viable strategy is if 7 or more of 12 randomly selected RPGA DMs familiar with the rules ended up with similar results desired by the PC. IMO that is doubtful based on Shapechanging into a Zodar (Fiend Folio), Exceding the standard Wish several fold Creating a magic item duplicating a 9th level spell effect which clearly excedes the 8th level spell effect duplication limitation before the other specifications of the Wish.

OP one method for creating a reasonably loyal 500 man army is having the PC take the Leadership feat and having NPC suboridinates in the army take the Leadership feat to expand the size of the army using the NPC mercenary warrior costs. There will be a core part of the army loyal to the PC personally and companies of mercenaries loyal to their own officers who are loyal to your PC who can have standing orders that your requests are to be followed as their employer.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-07, 11:57 AM
I'm surprised nobody has suggested going the Diplomancy route. A 17th level Half-Elf Bard should easily be able to get +50 to Diplomacy checks with some relatively affordable magic items, at which point he's basically in the position of being able to make literally anybody he ever meets, even his direst enemy into his loyal and trusted ally. With no save.

[Edited to add]

For what it's worth, my math goes something like this:

20 Ranks Diplomacy
+5 Charisma Modifier
+2 Racial
+2 Synergy (Bluff)
+2 Synergy (Sense Motive)
+2 Synergy (Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty)
+2 Negotiator

+35 so far.

Then a Doodad of Diplomacy +20 should be (20^2)*100 = 40k for a total of +55.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-07, 12:00 PM
But what about all the wights he created? If anyone of them uses their negative energy slam attacks, they now have wights under their control. And if that wight dies, there's now a wight out there with no one controlling it.

Well, the idea is that once the wights have a substantial number of other wights under their control, or have several tiers of control, they get moved 'off the front lines' so speak. Also, you have a standing order that any member of the army that has their commanding wight destroyed is to be immediatley destroyed.

Yes, this army will fight amongst itself a lot but who cares? Every battle you win means the army grows anyway and there's no overhead beyond the first bits of onyx.

Indon
2008-02-07, 12:06 PM
But what about all the wights he created? If anyone of them uses their negative energy slam attacks, they now have wights under their control. And if that wight dies, there's now a wight out there with no one controlling it.

Personally, since I'd be in favor of a tight military control, I would have all 2'nd generation wights and above destroyed at the end of each battle, beginning with the lowest-generation wights. Ditto with wraiths.

This is a big reason why you have a vampire in your forces - a commanded vampire is intelligent enough to ensure that orders of that complexity are carried out.

Ganurath
2008-02-07, 01:57 PM
You know, a half-orc druid could make a rather devastating army. Alter self to look full orc to meet with evil humanoid villages, use those max ranks in Diplomacy to gain their support for a massive campaign, throw in animals and elementals under your druidic sway. Too long has 'civilization' encroached on the territories of the wild races, and the time has come for the packs to reclaim their territory. I just figured I'd throw something out there that wasn't the cliche undead host.

Note: Half-orc is better than orc for this due to the lack of Wis penalty and light sensitivity.

osyluth
2008-02-07, 03:02 PM
Get Leadership, then make sure that any cohorts or followers above 6th level take Leadership, and if anybody else in the network is above 6th level, make sure they have good old Leadership. Then hire (with your 100,000 gold pieces) an army of mercenaries. You get 500,000 1st level warriors for 1 day only. If you immediately sent them all on a rampage of destruction, enough would be killed (and plenty of enemies with them) that you could send out a few barbarian or monk (fast movement) followers to loot the bodies of the slain. Then you sell the dead of both sides equipment, gaining enough money to pay the surviving mercenaries, and quite possibly gaining some gold. Repeat this process until all your enemies are dead. And this isn't even taking into account your huge army of cohorts and followers, and their cohorts and followers, and their cohorts and followers, etc.

Telonius
2008-02-07, 03:15 PM
How to gain permanent control of an army, in five easy steps.

Step 1: Max out your Bluff check.
Step 2: Find a king.
Step 3: Kill him.
Step 4: Polymorph into the king.
Step 5: Disintegrate the body.

EDIT: Steps 4 and 5 can be interchanged, depending on the tactical situation.

Prometheus
2008-02-07, 03:44 PM
Get Leadership, then make sure that any cohorts or followers above 6th level take Leadership, and if anybody else in the network is above 6th level, make sure they have good old Leadership. Then hire (with your 100,000 gold pieces) an army of mercenaries. You get 500,000 1st level warriors for 1 day only. If you immediately sent them all on a rampage of destruction, enough would be killed (and plenty of enemies with them) that you could send out a few barbarian or monk (fast movement) followers to loot the bodies of the slain. Then you sell the dead of both sides equipment, gaining enough money to pay the surviving mercenaries, and quite possibly gaining some gold. Repeat this process until all your enemies are dead. And this isn't even taking into account your huge army of cohorts and followers, and their cohorts and followers, and their cohorts and followers, etc.
I'm pretty sure renting out 500,000 mercenaries would count as an unusual demand on the market that would raise prices. Also, any group of people who had more money could quickly outbid you.

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-02-07, 04:05 PM
Not to mention finding all 500k mercs.

Ganurath
2008-02-07, 04:33 PM
How to gain permanent control of an army, in five easy steps.

Step 1: Max out your Bluff check.
Step 2: Find a king.
Step 3: Kill him.
Step 4: Polymorph into the king.
Step 5: Disintegrate the body.

EDIT: Steps 4 and 5 can be interchanged, depending on the tactical situation.Step 2.9: Get alone with the king, who no doubt has a guard posted at all times.
Step 2.1: Get close enough to the king to learn his mannerisms so you have knowledge to work off of, which would require weeks of study under which making a bad Bluff check is almost inevitable.
Step 2.5 Counteranticipate the Royal Diviner, who will probably either see through your bluff before you even meet the king or be able to find out what you did after you did it.

It's much easier to just make yourself a king. Take one Lich Wizard. Add one mountain. Open spellbook to disintegrate, wall of stone, and stone shape. Begin casting until you get the desired results of a mountain-sized fortress city. Now use Wall of Stone with Polymorph Any Object to create whatever raw materials you need to Fabricate into finished items to furnish the city. You'll be using Widened Walls of Stone for this part, though, so your fifth level spell slots are open for teleports to where your crystal ball tells you where you can find some low level clerics willing to help make an empire under a lich (Olidammara, anyone?) and bring them back. They'll be providing healing magic for when you start using the teleports to abduct runaway slaves, refugees, and the dying (we can't get them out of the fire!) to populate the city. Within a relatively short (in a lich's eye) ammount of time, you'll have an immense city. There is one law that will be relevent here: The lich is to be informed when someone is going to die of old age. Then, the lich sends a shadow in to draft the departed. Pretty much everyone in the city owes the lich their life, so who's going to argue? Thus, our lichy friend has assembled a neverending army of shadows that took a really long time to assemble, but that doesn't matter because Lich Rock is too far removed from civilization.

Collin152
2008-02-07, 05:28 PM
Well, the idea is that once the wights have a substantial number of other wights under their control, or have several tiers of control, they get moved 'off the front lines' so speak. Also, you have a standing order that any member of the army that has their commanding wight destroyed is to be immediatley destroyed.

Yes, this army will fight amongst itself a lot but who cares? Every battle you win means the army grows anyway and there's no overhead beyond the first bits of onyx.

Plus, an undead can always choose not to make spawn, so they can use their slam attacks without creating a liability, if you so choose.


Vampire Overseers are the way to go, especially if it isn't clear that they are vampires. They are pretty hard to take out permanently, after all.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-07, 05:45 PM
Step 2.9: Get alone with the king, who no doubt has a guard posted at all times.
Step 2.1: Get close enough to the king to learn his mannerisms so you have knowledge to work off of, which would require weeks of study under which making a bad Bluff check is almost inevitable.
Step 2.5 Counteranticipate the Royal Diviner, who will probably either see through your bluff before you even meet the king or be able to find out what you did after you did it.


This, again, is the joy of the Diplomancer build. Will the king talk to you? Of course he will, you can persuade him to. Will the Royal Diviner be on your side? Of course he will, you can persuade him to.

The terrifying thing about Diplomacy is that it changes people's *actual* opinion of you. There's no "but he'll see through your scheme" - he won't, because you've told him what your scheme is and convinced him it's a good idea.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-07, 05:57 PM
How to gain permanent control of an army, in five easy steps.

Step 1: Max out your Bluff check.
Step 2: Find a king.
Step 3: Kill him.
Step 4: Polymorph into the king.
Step 5: Disintegrate the body.

EDIT: Steps 4 and 5 can be interchanged, depending on the tactical situation.
You can even combine 3 and 5 into one quick step!

Just, you know, be ware of little things like, oh, high Sense Motive checks, the royal diviner, DM annoyance....

Collin152
2008-02-07, 07:01 PM
You can even combine 3 and 5 into one quick step!

Just, you know, be ware of little things like, oh, high Sense Motive checks, the royal diviner, DM annoyance....

Oh, so the Royal Diviner is more trustowrthy than the king?
Everybody's trusted adviser is trying to overthrow them, who's going ot believe the one honest one?

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-02-07, 07:08 PM
Wouldn't this all assume you actually get to be anywhere near the king? Why are you so special?

MeklorIlavator
2008-02-07, 07:21 PM
Wouldn't this all assume you actually get to be anywhere near the king? Why are you so special?

You're a 17th level character, and as such are pretty much one of the most powerful individuals around. At this stage you could likely kill the king's armies by yourself, and so having you on his "side" will be a pretty high priority.


Note: this doesn't apply in the Forgotten Realms, where the Bartender in the docks is an epic level cleric/wizard.

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-02-07, 07:24 PM
ahh, right... My mistake:smallredface:

Collin152
2008-02-07, 07:32 PM
ahh, right... My mistake:smallredface:

If you're diplomancing the king, sweetalk your way inside.
If you're blastign him to smithereens, just cast invisibility, for god's sake.

Yami
2008-02-07, 08:33 PM
I win?

Pretty much. A shame the OP allowed core as that's what broke your answer, not the non core stuff.

As for Lich Rock, Grizig and Wyvek give it two thumbs up!

It was good to see someone mentioned geas, but I'm saddened that noone has mentioned dominate person. Heck dominate animal would work too, just as long as they were going up against anything two size categories larger than themselves.

You people keep thinking of competant armed armies.

All I need are naked unwashed savages throwing themselves into the blades on mine enemies until they can slay no more. Then I send in the war elk, the herds of sheep slavering for manflesh (or whatever), the stampedes of enraged cattle, the ponies of doom!

And then for the hell of it, I'll have my surviving little armies fight until there is but one creature left standing on the field. To them I'll offer a medal and a position on my staff as I go in search of new bodies to dominate and once again begin the cleansing. I'll get them awakened if need be, they earned it.

GoC
2008-02-07, 08:35 PM
Chains are dangerous. For every wight that falls on the battlefield, you lose control of dozens.
Huh?
For each wight that dies you'll only lose control of (on average) another one.
Say each wight controls 10 others. That means that there's a 10/11 chance of no wight going berserk and a 1/11 chance of 10 going out of control. That's not devastating, just annoying.

Yami
2008-02-07, 08:42 PM
and you have to remeber that out of control means 'still kills the fleshies.' You just have to clean up afterwards.

Ganurath
2008-02-07, 08:51 PM
and you have to remeber that out of control means 'still kills the fleshies.' You just have to clean up afterwards.Tends to kill fleshies, if you take into account Wight Psychology 101. They like to hurt living things. So long as the character is undead, you can still lead even after the casualties. They are intelligent undead, after all.

Collin152
2008-02-07, 09:08 PM
Tends to kill fleshies, if you take into account Wight Psychology 101. They like to hurt living things. So long as the character is undead, you can still lead even after the casualties. They are intelligent undead, after all.

After all, what's a wight going ot do to another undead? No negative levels, and he created you. He that has power to create has power to destroy.

FlyMolo
2008-02-07, 10:43 PM
My favorite undead army? Warlock. Take utterdark blast, Eldritch chain/cone/doom, and the dead walk.

If something dies of negative levels, it comes back as wight. (I think I read this somewhere... not sure.) The trick is getting A wight under your control. A magic item of Create Greater Undead could work. Warlocks are good with magic items. Once you have one wight, use undead mooks raised from the nearest graveyard for free to weaken some people, then your one wight goes out and punches the dying. Now you have 8 wights, or so. They march in formation around you, and you waltz into the nearest town. When people attack you, periodically use Utterdark blast to kill townsfolk and heal your wights. When you have a sizeable army, dispose of mook wights(ones without any other wights commanded) by sending them in first. Any wight with more than 5 spawn moves back a rank, and so on and so forth. Wights are smart, they don't want to die, they'd spawn all the time.

Undead apocalypse. But once you have one wight, or one mohrg, or one shadow, or one mummy, or something else with create spawn it's all over anyway. This is just my favorite way.

Yahzi
2008-02-08, 12:52 AM
Hire them?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37056&highlight=book+armies