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CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 07:20 PM
FRCS LG Archivist -7, Sacred Exorcist -2, PRC Prestige Paladin -3 + 8 other levels to personal taste (of Mystra or Azuth)

1
3
6 Mounted Combat
9
12 Sword of the Arcane Order
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sword_of_the_Arcane_Order,CV
15
18

Spellcasting in light armor with ASF since the wizard spells are in divine spell slots and theoretically all spells in the game as a standard Archivist - CL11 at L12 and CL19 at L20 with no more PRC loss of spellcasting level PRCs.

Edit: Prestige Paladin and Prestige Ranger (I only built for Prestige Paladin):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin

Tengu
2008-02-06, 07:24 PM
Either I cannot read, or this feat is incredibly good - it basically turns paladins and rangers into gish PRCs for wizards!

EDIT: Hmm, I think I cannot read after all. It says caster level, it does not say that levels in those classes grant you additional Wizard spells.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 07:26 PM
HOLY HELL.

Toss in Battle Blessing (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Blessing,CC) TWF WTF FTW.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 07:38 PM
The Primary class is Archivist after hitting L12 and taking the Sword of the Arcane feat it lets an Archivist Prestige Paladin or Prestige Ranger prepare wizard spells from a spell book (which he happens to have) in his divine spell slots (Casting is based on intelligence which is why Archivist is such a good fit). No more crazy builds needed to get access to those wizard spells.

Battle Blessing is pretty sweet.

UglyPanda
2008-02-06, 07:47 PM
You need to have at least four levels in paladin or ranger to use that feat, not three.

I'm not sure if prestige paladin/ranger spell slots actually count as paladin/ranger spells and not archivist spells.

Sword of the arcane order & Battle blessing is a really good feat combination, though.

Edit:
/*Removed turn undead comment*/
You're a spell level behind, but it's better than a Mystic Theurge at the very least. If battle blessing applies, then that's actually a really good build.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-06, 07:51 PM
You need to have at least four levels in paladin or ranger to use that feat, not three. You can't turn undead as an archivist, so you can't do archivist/prestige paladin. Dipping cleric to get it ends up making you weaker than a Mystic Theurge.

I'm not sure if prestige paladin/ranger spell slots actually count as paladin/ranger spells and not archivist spells.

Sword of the arcane order is a really good feat, though.

The PC needs 4 levels in his primary class (Archivist who can cast Paladin spells) that first level of Prestige Paladin makes the PC a Paladin.

The PC can Turn Undead as a Sacred Exorcist which gets Turning as a PRC class special.

That's a good point it could be a gray area for some games but Prestige Paladin is advancing divine spellcasting and making the PC a Paladin one of the requirements for taking the feat. I like it flavorwise for a Paladin of the Gods of Magic.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-06, 07:54 PM
Right. It's Archivist 7/Sacred Exorcist 2/Prestige Paladin 3/X 8.

AslanCross
2008-02-08, 09:51 AM
...wait. This qualifies for Divine Metacheese too, right? Would the divine metamagic stuff still work with the arcane spells?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 12:12 PM
...wait. This qualifies for Divine Metacheese too, right? Would the divine metamagic stuff still work with the arcane spells?

No reason it wouldn't.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-08, 01:39 PM
...wait. This qualifies for Divine Metacheese too, right? Would the divine metamagic stuff still work with the arcane spells?

Yes. Unusual wording for the Sword of the Arcane Order feat since it allows the PC to prepare arcane "Wizard" spells in divine class spell slots (Not the ususal "Arcane" or sorcerer/wizard wording), it doesn't say they become "Arcane" spell slots or that the PC experiences ASF. If a DM ruled that it did it would only open up more arcane PRC options to the PC.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 01:47 PM
The thing with Battle Blessing + Prestige Paladin doesn't work.

Either a Paladin spell is a spell on the Paladin spell list, in which case Battle Blessing doesn't apply to the archivist's non-Paladin-list spells, or a Paladin spell is a spell cast by a Paladin, which means that Prestige Paladin doesn't qualify you for it (much as it wouldn't qualify you for SotAO in the first place).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-08, 04:59 PM
The thing with Battle Blessing + Prestige Paladin doesn't work.

Either a Paladin spell is a spell on the Paladin spell list, in which case Battle Blessing doesn't apply to the archivist's non-Paladin-list spells, or a Paladin spell is a spell cast by a Paladin, which means that Prestige Paladin doesn't qualify you for it (much as it wouldn't qualify you for SotAO in the first place).

I have to disagree a Archivist can cast Paladin spells in game. The PRC makes the Archivist a Paladin the requirement for taking the Sword of the Arcane Order feat. The feat doesn't say it is restricted to level 4 and below Paladin or Ranger spell slots. I'm not saying this build is a given in all games just that it doesn't seem prohibited and could be an enjoyable Gish style build.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 05:01 PM
I have to disagree a Archivist can cast Paladin spells in game. The PRC makes the Archivist a Paladin the requirement for taking the Sword of the Arcane Order feat. The feat doesn't say it is restricted to level 4 and below Paladin or Ranger spell slots.

No, the requirement for taking Sword of the Arcane Order is Paladin or Ranger 4th. Not Prestige Paladin or Prestige Ranger 4th or Class That Has Access To the Paladin Spell List 4th.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 05:12 PM
No, the requirement for taking Sword of the Arcane Order is Paladin or Ranger 4th. Not Prestige Paladin or Prestige Ranger 4th or Class That Has Access To the Paladin Spell List 4th.

The Prestige Bases are designed to replace the base classes in the game, and as such qualify those who take them as if they had taken the base versions.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 05:21 PM
The Prestige Bases are designed to replace the base classes in the game,
It does say that. But not "replace" as in "replace all mentions"--"replace" as in "don't use both at the same time".


and as such qualify those who take them as if they had taken the base versions.
Nope, it never says that.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 05:30 PM
It does say that. But not "replace" as in "replace all mentions"--"replace" as in "don't use both at the same time".


Nope, it never says that.

Doesn't say they don't, either, at least not in the SRD. I don't have my book right now, but I believe that UA has a short paragraph about their use in game that isn't in the SRD.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 05:33 PM
Doesn't say they don't, either

{Scrubbed}

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 05:36 PM
If one character class is replacing another one, it's not a very far stretch of the imagination to believe that "replace" includes qualifying. Particularly since those in those prestigious character classes specifically qualify for spells that are only for that class. There's even a sidebar for it. So if a Prestige Paladin qualifies for Paladin-Only spells, why would they not qualify for Paladin-Only feats?

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 05:41 PM
If one character class is replacing another one, it's not a very far stretch of the imagination to believe that "replace" includes qualifying.
No, it isn't.
It's also not what the rules say. The text doesn't even use the word "replace"--it just says "don't use both at the same time".


Particularly since those in those prestigious character classes specifically qualify for spells that are only for that class. There's even a sidebar for it. So if a Prestige Paladin qualifies for Paladin-Only spells, why would they not qualify for Paladin-Only feats?
Because it says they qualify for paladin-only spells. It's pretty simple.

If you want a justification, because of stuff like this.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-08, 05:51 PM
Wow. That's almost Giacomo style reasoning.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 05:58 PM
Wow. That's almost Giacomo style reasoning.

What? No. It's just the RAW.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-08, 06:03 PM
No, the requirement for taking Sword of the Arcane Order is Paladin or Ranger 4th. Not Prestige Paladin or Prestige Ranger 4th or Class That Has Access To the Paladin Spell List 4th.

I don't have any problems with anybody disallowing the build in their game which can be done by simply limiting or prohibiting the use of several game options in some manner like the base Archivist class or any other PRCs with Turning or the UA/SRD Prestige Paladin Variant or the feat itself. Just limiting the options to core disallows the feat.

Not using the prestige paladin variant or other PRC in a game wouldn't necessarily make it a prohibited build in all games so I disagree on a few key points since members of the military order have a special connection with arcane magic.

The requirement is for a Paladin or Ranger 4th (the level a standard Paladin or Ranger begins being able to cast divine spells).

IMO when the PC takes the first level of the Prestige class they are a Padaldin of whatever their total levels are since the Prestige Paladin class advances caster levels unlike similar Holy Warrior PRCs like the Holy Liberator or Templar from that level on as long as they maintain their Paladin status.

I can also understand the reasoning behing requiring 4 levels in the prestige paladin or prestige ranger PRCs to take the SotAO feat despite the fact that the PRC cannot be taken by a PC below 4th level without divine spellcasting ability equivalent to or greater than a standard level 4 paladin or ranger due to PRC prerequistites when a standard paladin or ranger would normally obtain divine spellcasting from a small limited spell list at L4.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 06:08 PM
IMO when the PC takes the first level of the Prestige class they are a Padaldin of whatever their total levels are since the Prestige Paladin class advances caster levels unlike similar Holy Warrior PRCs like the Holy Liberator or Templar from that level on as long as they maintain their Paladin status.
You can call them a paladin if you like. That doesn't change the fact that they have levels in the Prestige Paladin prestige class, rather than in the Paladin class. These are not the same. Prestige Paladin does only what it says it does.


I can also understand the reasoning behing requiring 4 levels in the prestige paladin or prestige ranger PRCs to take the SotAO feat despite the fact that the PRC cannot be taken by a PC below 4th level due to prerequistites when a standard paladin or ranger would normally obtain divine spellcasting from a small limited spell list and requires that minimum of spellcasting.
A standard paladin or ranger would never get more than a few low-level spell slots, either; the feat is meant for the quasi-casters the Paladin and Ragner classes are, not the full casters the Prestige Paladin/Ranger prestige classes are. RAW and RAI are in perfect agreement, here: you can't take SotAO as a Prestige Paladin/Ranger.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-08, 06:11 PM
What? No. It's just the RAW.


This is not a case of RAW. It's a case RAW by omission, which unmakes it's RAWness. Indeed, it is very Giacomo, like saying "All the classes are balanced" when they aren't. When you substitute, you substitute fully. Otherwise, What's the point?

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 06:25 PM
This is not a case of RAW. It's a case RAW by omission, which unmakes it's RAWness. Indeed, it is very Giacomo, like saying "All the classes are balanced" when they aren't. When you substitute, you substitute fully. Otherwise, What's the point?
What? It's exactly a case of RAW. I'm not the one saying "it implies..." and "it makes sense...", I'm talking about what the rules actually say.

"The rules don't say I can't" IS NOT a viable argument. The rules don't say humans can't have four functional arms, either.

The rules never say "substitute Prestige Paladin for all mentions of Paladin". They don't say anything remotely like that. They say that you shouldn't use the regular paladin class and the Prestige Paladin PrC at the same time.


With this variant, these classes become off limits for starting (1st-level) characters. Thus, the three prestige classes presented below represent elite character archetypes, roles that can only he achieved through training in specific areas of knowledge and expertise. In each case, the prestige class recreates the feel of the character class, but with slight variations. Each class has fifteen levels, allowing a character who enters at 6th level to continue along that path all the way up to 20th level.

If you use any of the variant classes presented here, the standard version of the class should be unavailable. For instance, you shouldn't include both the standard paladin character class and the paladin prestige class in the same game.

Prestige Paladin is different from base-class Paladin. It's supposed to be different. It has a similar feel, but it has variations; it's more elite in flavor (no more "noob" first-level paladins, for example) and not identical mechanically.
Absolutely nowhere does it say "Prestige X replaces X for all intents and purposes" or "Prestige X qualifies for everything that X qualifies for."

I am making an argument from RAW (and RAI, the Battle Blessing thing obviously doesn't fly, either, being meant for quasi-casters rather than full casters).
Your argument is, what, "they're similar"?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-08, 06:25 PM
You can call them a paladin if you like. That doesn't change the fact that they have levels in the Prestige Paladin prestige class, rather than in the Paladin class. These are not the same. Prestige Paladin does only what it says it does.


A standard paladin or ranger would never get more than a few low-level spell slots, either; the feat is meant for the quasi-casters the Paladin and Ragner classes are, not the full casters the Prestige Paladin/Ranger prestige classes are. RAW and RAI are in perfect agreement, here: you can't take SotAO as a Prestige Paladin/Ranger.

I can call them Paladins because that's what they are. That's what the Prestige Paladin class makes the PC similar to a standard NPC Paladin getting the call later in life at level 3 or 4 and taking their first Paladin level. The Prestige Paladin PRC makes the PC a Paladin.

As I posted earlier "members of the military order have a special connection with arcane magic" as specified in the feat.

That's what the feat does it lets Paladins of Azuth or Mystra and No other Gods, with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat cast Wizard spells in divine spell slots something other paladins and rangers cannot do.

That's exactly what the Prestige Paladin PRC does it lets a divine spellcaster become a Paladin with the potential to cast spells of higher level than standard paladins.

I disagree with your interpretation of RAW and RAI. There is a design, review and editing process who are supposed to be familiar with the SRD. I could make this build with a Cleric, Cloistered Cleric or a Variant Spellcaster in Core.

Either one of the designers slipped this in knowing the potential in game or all the designers and reviewers were less familiar with the Core SRD rules of the game than the players. IMO since the feat was so worded oddly I believe the designer intentionally left in this loophole for a Gish since that helps sell more source books and most source books are considered optional for DMs.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 06:32 PM
I can call them Paladins because that's what they are. That's what the Prestige Paladin class makes the PC similar to a standard NPC Paladin getting the call later in life at level 3 or 4 and taking their first Paladin level. The Prestige Paladin PRC makes the PC a Paladin.

And that's really, I think, the crux of the argument. Is a Prestige Paladin really a Paladin? I think yes, but it seems that RO,L doesn't.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 06:34 PM
I can call them Paladins because that's what they are. That's what the Prestige Paladin class makes the PC similar to a standard NPC Paladin getting the call later in life at level 3 or 4 and taking their first Paladin level. The Prestige Paladin PRC makes the PC a Paladin.
No, they're not Paladins. They are Prestige Paladins, characters with (an elite) Prestige Class rather than a base class, with similar but differing mechanics.


As I posted earlier "members of the military order have a special connection with arcane magic" as specified in the feat.

That's what the feat does it lets Paladins of Azuth or Mystra and No other Gods of Magic with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat cast Wizard spells in divine spell slots something other paladins and rangers cannot do.
Yes, except it requires you to be a "Paladin 4". A Prestige Paladin 4 is not a Paladin 4.


That's exactly what the Prestige Paladin PRC does it lets a divine spellcaster become a Paladin with the potential to cast spells of higher level than standard paladins.
It lets a divine spellcaster become a Prestige Paladin.


I disagree with your interpretation of RAW and RAI. There is a design, review and editing process. Either one of the designers slipped this in or all the designers and reviewers were less familiar with the rules of the game than the players. Since the feat was worded oddly I believe the designers intentionally left in this loophole for a Gish since that helps sell more source books and most source books are considered optional for DMs.
You "disagree with [my] interpretation of RAW" by suggesting that the designers and editors got the RAW wrong?
I've quoted the RAW, above. It says NOTHING LIKE "Prestige Paladins replace Paladins", just that the Paladin becomes off limits and the Prestige Paladin recreates its feel--with different mechanics. The two are obviously not the same, mechanically, and it never says they are; nor does it say the PP qualifies for anything the P qualifies for. Your argument seems to be "well, they meant to imply it, but they never put it in". That ain't RAW.

RAI, you might have a point... if it weren't for the fact that allowing Battle Blessing or Sword of the Arcane Order to apply to the Prestige Paladin goes against the intent of the feats (which were designed for characters who cap out with a couple of fourth level spells, rather than getting 9th level spells), which was to provide good options for subpar paladin casting and/or make up for poor Paladin class design. Making the feat availible to a *full* caster clearly goes against its intentions.


And that's really, I think, the crux of the argument. Is a Prestige Paladin really a Paladin? I think yes, but it seems that RO,L doesn't.
Flavor-wise, it is a more elite version of the Paladin.
Mechanically, it is not the same class. It's not a class variant, it's its own class; it's not even the same kind of class (prestige vs. base).
Mechanically, the Paladin is a Paladin, the Prestige Paladin is a Cleric(/X) with the Prestige Paladin PrC, which doesn't qualify him for anything that specifies Paladin level 4th, because he's not a Paladin, he's a Prestige Paladin.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 06:39 PM
Flavor-wise, it is a more elite version of the Paladin. Mechanically, it is not the same class. It's not a class variant, it's its own class; it's not even the same kind of class (prestige vs. base).
Mechanically, the Paladin is a Paladin, the Prestige Paladin is a Cleric(/X) with the Prestige Paladin PrC, which doesn't qualify him for anything that specifies Paladin level 4th, because he's not a Paladin, he's a Prestige Paladin.
Oh really?


In each case, the prestige class recreates the feel of the character class, but with slight variations.
In any case, I've asked CustServ. We'll see what happens.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 06:41 PM
...

Fax, how the hell are you getting "is the same class as" or "qualifies for all of the same things as" from "recreates the feel of, but with slight variations"?

...CustServ. Yeah, that's authoritative.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 06:44 PM
...

Fax, how the hell are you getting "is the same class as" from "recreates the feel of, but with slight variations"?Because the title of the class is "Paladin", "Ranger", and "Bard". Because they get many of the same class features with some minor alterations as to accessible level and overall power. Because they qualify for spells that are only for their originating class, and as such should qualify for other things that have similar requirements.


...CustServ. Yeah, that's authoritative.Well, okay. Technically I asked Sage Advice. But what it really boils down to is, "I'll play my way, and you can play yours."

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 06:51 PM
Because the title of the class is "Paladin", "Ranger", and "Bard". Because they get many of the same class features with some minor alterations as to accessible level and overall power.
No, the title of the class is "Prestige Paladin/Ranger/Bard". If it had the same name, it'd qualify.
They get many of the same class features, sure. Have them.
Overall power is increased. Casting paladin spells plus, up to 6th or 7th level cleric spells (which don't just get higher-level--you get a lot more of them faster) plus having two domains is a lot more powerful than just casting paladin spells.


Because they qualify for spells that are only for their originating class, and as such should qualify for other things that have similar requirements.
That, right there? That's where it's not RAW. Maybe they theoretically should. But they DON'T, not unless it says they do.
Prestige Paladins don't even automatically receive splatbook Paladin spells the way actual paladins do.

Look, this is really simple. RAW, they only get what the text says they get. Why are you trying to claim your implieds and shoulds are RAW when they're by definition not?


Well, okay. Technically I asked Sage Advice. But what it really boils down to is, "I'll play my way, and you can play yours."
You are welcome to play however you like. That doesn't make it RAW.

If you get "archivist who casts wizard spells on top of all divine spells" past your DM, you could've just gotten "Archivist who gets divine scrolls of arcane spells from a Warlock 12+" past him instead--and that IS RAW.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 06:55 PM
That, right there? That's where it's not RAW. Maybe they theoretically should. But they DON'T, not unless it says they do.
Prestige Paladins don't even automatically receive splatbook Paladin spells the way actual paladins do.

Look, this is really simple. RAW, they only get what the text says they get. Why are you trying to claim your implieds and shoulds are RAW when they're by definition not?

Have I ever stated, "This is how it works"? No. I've tried to present a case that shows that Prestige Paladins should qualify, not that they do.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 07:01 PM
Have I ever stated, "This is how it works"? No. I've tried to present a case that shows that Prestige Paladins should qualify, not that they do.

In that case, you still have absolutely no case, because it's totally not right to give full or mostly-full casters access to things balanced for classes that get one 4th-level spell at level 14 if they have a decent WIS? Obviously not the same. (By level 14, a Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 8 has 4 4th and 3 5th level spells before bonus spells from WIS, a lot more lower-level spells; a cleric that only dips Prestige Paladin loses only a little casting). What, are clerics not powerful enough or something?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 07:04 PM
In that case, you still have absolutely no case, because it's totally not right to give full or mostly-full casters access to things balanced for classes that get one 4th-level spell at level 14 if they have a decent WIS? Obviously not the same. (By level 14, a Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 8 has 4 4th and 3 5th level spells before bonus spells from WIS, a lot more lower-level spells; a cleric that only dips Prestige Paladin loses only a little casting).

Maybe in the specific case of this feat, sure, that might be acceptable. But what about feats like Serenity? A Prestige Paladin shouldn't be able to swap his Divine Grace and Lay on Hands to be Wisdom based rather than Charisma based because he's getting them via a prestige class rather than a base class? What about such things as Ascetic Knight? Devoted Tracker? Swift Hunter?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-08, 07:07 PM
No, the title of the class is "Prestige Paladin/Ranger/Bard". If it had the same name, it'd qualify.
They get many of the same class features, sure. Have them.
Overall power is increased. Casting paladin spells plus, up to 6th or 7th level cleric spells (which don't just get higher-level--you get a lot more of them faster) plus having two domains is a lot more powerful than just casting paladin spells.



Here's the thing I'm using the Variant Prestige Class Paladin Variant in a game without the standard Paladin class as per the variant rules with an Archivist, Cloisitered Cleric or Variant Spellcaster class are you still saying the class isn't a Paladin and no variant class Paladin can take Paladin feats?

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 07:09 PM
Maybe in the specific case of this feat, sure, that might be acceptable. But what about feats like Serenity? A Prestige Paladin shouldn't be able to swap his Divine Grace and Lay on Hands to be Wisdom based rather than Charisma based because he's getting them via a prestige class rather than a base class?
Assuming Serenity specifies "Paladin level X"? Yes. A Cleric with a WIS-based Divine Grace is obviously a whole lot more potent than a Paladin with such. By default, the Prestige Paladin should not have access to "Paladin level x" abilities because they are balanced for the Paladin, not for the Cleric/Prestige Paladin.


What about such things as Ascetic Knight? Devoted Tracker? Swift Hunter?
These things require class features like "special mount" or "favored enemy", not levels of a class. They're presumably balanced for the class features. "Class level X" is a rare prerequisite and it means they're being particularily careful about who gets access.



Here's the thing I'm using the Variant Prestige Class Paladin Variant in a game without the standard Paladin class as per the variant rules with an Archivist, Cloisitered Cleric or Variant Spellcaster class are you still saying the class isn't a Paladin and no variant class Paladin can take Paladin feats?
I'm saying that's what the rules say. I'd make my decision on a case-by-case basis (SotAO would obviously be out).

By the rules, Paladin class variants, like the Paladin of Freedom, are still of the Paladin class (just like an "Avenger" variant Druid is still of the Druid class), just trading out some class features and such for others. Prestige Paladin is a separate class. It's not even the same KIND of class. As a result, it can take anything its class features qualify for, but nothing that requires Paladin level X (so, Ascetic Hunter yes, Sword of the Arcane Order no).

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 07:12 PM
Assuming Serenity specifies "Paladin level X"? Yes. A Cleric with a WIS-based Divine Grace is obviously a whole lot more potent than a Paladin with such. By default, the Prestige Paladin should not have access to "Paladin level x" abilities because they are balanced for the Paladin, not for the Cleric/Prestige Paladin.

And what's different from Paladin 2/Cleric X and Cleric X/Prestige Paladin 2 with the Serenity feat, really? Both have the same HP, the same saves, the same loss of one spellcasting level...

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 07:14 PM
And what's different from Paladin 2/Cleric X and Cleric X/Prestige Paladin 2 with the Serenity feat, really? Both have the same HP, the same saves, the same loss of one spellcasting level...

The Cleric X/Prestige Paladin 2 only gave up *one* caster level (you know how big a deal each caster level is) and gained access to the Paladin spell list (which features a few new spells and a bunch of spells at lower levels).

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 07:16 PM
The Cleric X/Prestige Paladin 2 only gave up *one* caster level (you know how big a deal each caster level is) and gained access to the Paladin spell list (which features a few new spells and a bunch of spells at lower levels).
...and spent a feat on a relatively useless feat (Mounted Combat), and dropped scant skill points into Knowledge (Nobility) and Ride.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 07:20 PM
...and spent a feat on a relatively useless feat (Mounted Combat), and dropped scant skill points into Knowledge (Nobility) and Ride.

Spellcaster. Level.

(And the "extra/lower-level spells thing, which is worth more than the feat/SP on its own.)

AslanCross
2008-02-08, 07:22 PM
...was it something I said? >_o This thread was dead until I posted my question in it.

I don't get, however, why a Prestige Paladin would be not a Paladin simply because it's "moar leet." The Prestige Paladin requires a BAB of +4, so that would mean at least 4 levels in another class (with full BAB), not to mention archivist/cleric levels taken for divine spellcasting. Would the Prestige Paladin be barred from taking the feat just because he's overqualified?

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 07:25 PM
...was it something I said? >_o This thread was dead until I posted my question in it.

I don't get, however, why a Prestige Paladin would be not a Paladin simply because it's "moar leet." The Prestige Paladin requires a BAB of +4, so that would mean at least 4 levels in another class (with full BAB), not to mention archivist/cleric levels taken for divine spellcasting. Would the Prestige Paladin be barred from taking the feat just because he's overqualified?

The Prestige Paladin is not a Paladin because he has levels in the Prestige Paladin prestige class, not the Paladin base class. It's the same reason someone with the Master Samurai PrC isn't the same as someone with the Samurai base class.

RAW, the Prestige Paladin would be barred from taking the feat because he does not have 4 levels in the Paladin base class (which is what "Paladin level 4" means).
RAI, the Prestige Paladin would be barred from taking the feat because it would give the cleric access to any wizard spell he wants, and that's broken.

AslanCross
2008-02-08, 07:43 PM
Well, I understand the difference in the class names being reason enough in the CWSamurai/OASamurai/Master Samurai's case, since they're not mutually exclusive. The Paladin/Prestige Paladin, however, are mutually exclusive. It is a replacement.
Now I understand that we'd like to prevent this from happening because it's a broken build (I wouldn't allow it in my games either), but I really don't think the RAW says enough in this case to be authoritative. As far as I can tell, if it's a replacement, it is a replacement. I think it would be silly that the Prestige Paladin wouldn't qualify for feats like Celestial Mount just because he has a different name, while the class that qualifies for the feat does not exist in the game to begin with.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 07:52 PM
Well, I understand the difference in the class names being reason enough in the CWSamurai/OASamurai/Master Samurai's case, since they're not mutually exclusive. The Paladin/Prestige Paladin, however, are mutually exclusive. It is a replacement.
The only difference is that they can't coexist. Prestige Paladin doesn't say "this class replaces the Paladin", it just says you should have one or the other. It could easily have said "replaces" if it had meant that.


Now I understand that we'd like to prevent this from happening because it's a broken build (I wouldn't allow it in my games either), but I really don't think the RAW says enough in this case to be authoritative. As far as I can tell, if it's a replacement, it is a replacement.
The RAW says plenty! It tells you exactly what the PP gets. It does NOT say it replaces the Paladin, or qualifies for anything the Paladin does. If you want the RAW to tell you you CAN'T do X, well... it very, very rarely does that. But "it doesn't say I can't" isn't a viable argument.

The Prestige Paladin is a prestige class that "recreates the feel of" the Paladin class, with slight variations. It doesn't mechanically replace it--it's mechanically different, intentionally.


I think it would be silly that the Prestige Paladin wouldn't qualify for feats like Celestial Mount just because he has a different name, while the class that qualifies for the feat does not exist in the game to begin with.
RAW is silly sometimes, but RAW, the PP couldn't take that feat. That doesn't mean the default should be "PP qualifies for everything paladin does", because that's trouble more often than not. Any reasonable DM would let you take Celestial Mount; that's not the point here.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-08, 07:57 PM
I'm saying that's what the rules say. I'd make my decision on a case-by-case basis (SotAO would obviously be out).

By the rules, Paladin class variants, like the Paladin of Freedom, are still of the Paladin class (just like an "Avenger" variant Druid is still of the Druid class), just trading out some class features and such for others. Prestige Paladin is a separate class. It's not even the same KIND of class. As a result, it can take anything its class features qualify for, but nothing that requires Paladin level X (so, Ascetic Hunter yes, Sword of the Arcane Order no).



IMO we are interpreting the same rules with a slightly different empahsis and basically sitting on opposite sides of the table which is fine since there is a little gray by RAW.

My main issue is that the build would make a nice, fun to play LG Gish build which I don't believe would be prohibited by RAW in all games which I mentioned in the original post.

Your reasoning is that the build is illegal by RAW and would be prohibited in all games and I don't see it being that clear of an issue.

IMO this is really splitting hairs regarding what constitutes a Paladin in game if you would allow the Prestige Paladin to take other Paladin feats in game but not the Sword of the Arcane Order feat based on the reasoning that the PC isn't really a Paladin when it's really a balance issue and mostly based on the feat being to powerful for Wizard spells above 4th level.

As a DM there are lots of options to keep the build out of a game or campaign to address any balance issues with it:

The DM and the player discuss the PC concepts and what material is allowed in game or campaign before it starts is usually the best method since there are so many different types of PC options in game.

No UA/SRD Variant Prestige Paladins in game because there are standard Paladins in the campaign so the PRC isn't a campaign option and makes the build a non issue.

The PC isn't a Paladin of Azuth or Mystra and doesn't qualify for the feat and makes the build a non issue.

The campaign isn't in FRCS and the SotAO is a FRCS feat again the build is a non issue.

The Champions of Valor source book isn't allowed in game so taking the feat isn't an option.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-09, 12:30 AM
Wait, an archivist can replace a paladin to qualify for feats/whatever?
Including those feats in the Complete Adventurer (or is it Warrior?) Can an archivist use a holy avenger?

... or you are talking about the prestige class version of the paladin? It's not really clear reading through this thread. In any case, you'd need 4 levels in the PrC anyway, doesn't it? It would be the same as picking 4 levels of the normal class.

And yes, a paladin with this feat and Battle Blessing (I spelled it correctly for once) would be awesome. Though it's weird that it also allows a paladin's effective caster level to add up with any wizard level he has. Only ToB classes had this kind of synergy.

Now, I'll admit I'm not understanding why you guys are adding the archivist in this mix. I'll have to re-read how he works.

Nebo_
2008-02-09, 12:58 AM
By the RAW, Reel On, Love is completely right. They are not the same class and no creative interpretation of those rules will make that so. That said, it is perfectly reasonable for a DM to say that the class works like that in his game, but it doesn't make it any more legal by RAW. It might have been intended to work that way, but there's no rule that backs that up.

KoDT69
2008-02-09, 01:51 AM
As much as I hate to disagree with Fax, I really have to this time. Considering the Prestige Paladin a full replacement doesn't even fix the problem with this build concept.


Spells per Day

A prestige paladin's training focuses on divine spellcasting. At every odd numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.

OK so look, he adds to the Archivist progression. He is not getting the actual Paladin spell progression, just increasing the previous divine progression.


Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard).
These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one) or from another character's spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook.
If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.

Again, since the Prestige Paladin only enhances other casting classes and can't be used in conjunction with the base class Paladin, that progression is made impossible to get. Anybody can argue and say "but the Prestige Paladin increase can be considered 'paladin spells' by RAW", but that is wrong. Very wrong. A Wizard taking levels in Archmage does not convert his spellcasting progression to "Archmage Spells" because they were and remain "Wizard Spells" regardless of the effect that flies out from his fingertips. Sorry dude.

So I would agree to allow the prestige Paladin the same access top feats and stuff, but his casting type is the issue. This one is debunked.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-09, 02:32 AM
Can an archivist use a holy avenger?

... or you are talking about the prestige class version of the paladin?

It's not really clear reading through this thread. In any case, you'd need 4 levels in the PrC anyway, doesn't it? It would be the same as picking 4 levels of the normal class.

And yes, a paladin with this feat and Battle Blessing (I spelled it correctly for once) would be awesome. Though it's weird that it also allows a paladin's effective caster level to add up with any wizard level he has. Only ToB classes had this kind of synergy.

Now, I'll admit I'm not understanding why you guys are adding the archivist in this mix. I'll have to re-read how he works.

Yes with the Prestige Paladin PRC a Archivist can use a holy avenger (+5 Holy Cold Iron Longsword) without the Prestige class it only functions as a +2 Cold Iron Long Sword.

Archivist- 7, Sacred Exorcist -2*(1 with BAB averaging), PRC Paladin- 4+, X-7 (8 with BAB averaging)

Using Archivist for the Intelligence synergy with the SotAO feat (Int for spellcasting) Wizard spells to keep the build SAD Int and Charisma.

From the SRD:
Most prestige paladins are clerics or fighter/clerics, though rare cleric/monks might pursue this path as well. NPC prestige paladins usually belong to a holy order dedicated to a lawful good deity. Some are lone wanderers, dealing out justice while walking the earth. Compared to the standard paladin, the prestige paladin gives up a small amount of combat prowess in exchange for a larger spell list and a higher top end of his spellcasting powers. (RAW/RAI) Also, his class features aren't quite as powerful as the standard paladin's as a result of his reduced paladin class level.

Sword of the Arcane Order feat:
You can use your paladin spell slots to prepare Wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard). (RAW/RAI)

Saph
2008-02-09, 06:08 AM
Sword of the Arcane Order feat:
You can use your paladin spell slots to prepare Wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard). (RAW/RAI)

But you don't have paladin spell slots. That's what Reel's been trying to explain.

You have Archivist spell slots, and a PrC that advances your Archivist spellcasting. Paladin spell slots can only be gained by taking levels in the Paladin base class. The Prestige Paladin does not get any Paladin spell slots - it gets more spell slots of whatever divine class you're using (Cleric, or Archivist in your case).

I don't think there's much room for interpretation on this one.

- Saph

Fax Celestis
2008-02-09, 11:47 AM
But you don't have paladin spell slots. That's what Reel's been trying to explain.

You have Archivist spell slots, and a PrC that advances your Archivist spellcasting. Paladin spell slots can only be gained by taking levels in the Paladin base class. The Prestige Paladin does not get any Paladin spell slots - it gets more spell slots of whatever divine class you're using (Cleric, or Archivist in your case).

I don't think there's much room for interpretation on this one.

- Saph

There is, however, the fact that the Prestige Paladin both grants paladin spells and that the Archivist can place Paladin spells into his Archivist slots.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-09, 12:20 PM
There is, however, the fact that the Prestige Paladin both grants paladin spells and that the Archivist can place Paladin spells into his Archivist slots.

What it does not do, however, is convert your Archivist levels into Paladin Levels, and since Prestige Paladins are a house-rule, their interaction with other rules is up to the individual gaming group.

A legitimate interpretation would be that to get /Sword of the Arcane Order/ required the character to have four levels of Prestige Paladin. It makes it harder to get to, but since the whole point of the Prestige Paladin is to make paladins *in general* more unusual and special it strikes me as reasonable.

KoDT69
2008-02-09, 12:32 PM
There is, however, the fact that the Prestige Paladin both grants paladin spells and that the Archivist can place Paladin spells into his Archivist slots.

No, Prestige Paladin grants additional ARCHIVIST SPELLS! He can cast spells from the Paladin list but they are still ARCHIVIST SPELLS. The spell slot does not change type to match the spell. A Cleric with the Travel Domain can cast Fly as a 3rd level spell AS A DIVINE CLERIC SPELL. Just because it's on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list does not mean the spell is cast as such. The Cleric can cast fly in full-plate armor because it's a divine spell as his class and spell progression dictates, not the spell list where it first appeared.

Yah so nobody read my last post it seems. Just because he can add a spell from the Paladin list as an Archivist does not make them "Paladin Spells" it makes them "Archivist Spells" because they are being cast from a spell slot granted by the Archivist spell progression. The prestige Paladin advances the Archivist progression. Nowhere in the Prestige Paladin description does it specifically state that they even gain access to the Paladin spell list, let alone the fact that PrC's can't change the base progression. You can't be a Cleric 10 / Wizard 5 / Prestige Paladin 5 (if one exists that even meets this examples point) and say you have "Paladin Spells" because you're effective casting is Cleric 15 / Wizard 5.

PRESTIGE PALADIN DOES NOT GRANT THE STANDARD PALADIN SPELL PROGRESSION. BY RAW. PrC's don't work that way. So it looks a lot like the base class... so what? How many base classes and PrC's are redundant? There are over 500 classes to cover different combos of the base classes and character archtypes, and most of them are regurgitated crap. Having Paladin in the name does not grant you the benefit of anything pertaining to the original class unless expressly stated in the class description. A Psychic Warrior is not bound by any rules of the NPC Warrior class just because the word warrior is included. :smallyuk:

Fax Celestis
2008-02-09, 12:59 PM
No, Prestige Paladin grants additional ARCHIVIST SPELLS! He can cast spells from the Paladin list but they are still ARCHIVIST SPELLS. The spell slot does not change type to match the spell. A Cleric with the Travel Domain can cast Fly as a 3rd level spell AS A DIVINE CLERIC SPELL. Just because it's on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list does not mean the spell is cast as such. The Cleric can cast fly in full-plate armor because it's a divine spell as his class and spell progression dictates, not the spell list where it first appeared.

You seem to have misunderstood what I meant.


Unique Spells

The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available. So yes, the prestige paladin does grant paladin spells.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-09, 01:14 PM
Ok, got it. The Prestige Paladin doesn't have paladin spells, because it gives the "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class", meaning that an archivist taking it will advance his archivist spellcasting ability. The fact that the regular paladin's spells are in the archivist's spells list means nothing, they are still archivist spells.

That feat is indeed a feat for normal paladin spellcasting, as is Battle Blessing. You can't use the paladin class as a "shortcut" to connect it with the archivist's spells.

The only way for an archivist to use it, is if the DM makes one order whose main class is archivist and allows that feat, and we know no sane (and aware) DM would allow it.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-09, 06:28 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin

Prestigious Character Classes
A number of the standard character classes represent very specific (if not always specialized) roles in the game. These classes-the bard, the paladin, and the ranger-might require special training to enter, training that can be mimicked by transforming these classes into prestige classes.

If you use any of the variant classes presented here, the standard version of the class should be unavailable. For instance, you shouldn't include both the standard paladin character class and the paladin prestige class in the same game.

Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

Compared to the standard paladin, the prestige paladin gives up a small amount of combat prowess in exchange for a larger spell list and a higher top end of his spellcasting powers. Also, his class features aren't quite as powerful as the standard paladin's as a result of his reduced paladin class level.

Spells per Day
A prestige paladin's training focuses on divine spellcasting. At every odd numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.

Sword of the Arcane Order
Type: General
Source: Champions of Valor

Members of your military order have a special connection with arcane magic.

Prerequisite: Paladin 4th of Azuth or Mystra, or ranger 4th of Mystra.
Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Prestige Paladin is an interesting gish build that a DM can easily keep out of his game as I have posted earlier. There is enough gray by RAW & RAI IMO that the LG gish build would not be prohibited in All games. I acknowledge that by the very strictest interpretation of the spellcasting rules taken out of context in regards to the variant IMO would preclude the build.

There are several key points being overlooked or disregarded to take another rule out of context IMO:

First if the Prestige Paladin class variant is being used in a game then standard Paladins are not so there are now no standard Paladin spell slots in game.

Second the purpose of the Prestige Paladin PRC is to give up some amount of combat prowess in exchange for a larger spell list and a higher top end of his spellcasting powers (The variant in a game creates Nonstandard Paladin spell casting slots).

The purpose and intent of the SotAO feat is to let the Paladin cast Wizard spells in his Paladin spell casting slots.

KoDT69
2008-02-09, 11:37 PM
Yes I saw it says that the Prestige Paladin/Bard/Ranger gain access to the spells from their respective spell lists, but they type of spell slots remain unchanged. If you can say that it does work that way, then you don't need any Paladin levels anyway because the Archivist can cast spells from the Paladin spell list. Yeah, I don;t think so. And if you want to debate RAI, then the SotAO feat was intended to give a primary melee character up to 4th level arcane spells to add to his utility. The Prestige Paladin will specifically get up to 6th level spells instead of only 4th, so it was not intended for this feat combo. As I said before, getting to cast spells normally on a different class spell list does not change the type of spell slot it's cast from. See my previous example of Clerics and domain spells...

namo
2008-02-10, 05:54 AM
Agreed with ROL, KODT and the rest : RAW, it doesn't work. Feel free to talk to your DM about it, just be prepared to dodge the DMG...

Note that adding Paladin spells to the Archivist's spell list is not even very good, since the Archivist still needs them in his prayerbook, for which he needs to find the corresponding scrolls... Yeah, that gained nothing.