Space Marines vs Mobile Infantry

[Executor]

One Space Marine chapter (let's say the Ultramarines)

vs

One Mobile Infantry regiment

This has been bugging me after I first heard about the Adeptus Astartes about two years after reading Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Now these aren't those idiots from the movie, the Space Marines have a worthy foe this time, these guys:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/TFMI.gif/612px-TFMI.gif

These are the Mobile Infantry invisioned in Heinlein's book, they are an elite 'armoured infantry' force that relies on shock, mobility and firepower. Each individual soldier is armed with everything from smallarms to micro-nuclear warheads. Their powered armour suits give them the appearance of a 'steel gorilla', with enough strength to crumple tanks or tear through concrete wall. They are dropped from orbit in individual pods and manuevre on the battlefield with the aid of jump jets and rocket packs. The Mobile Infantry pride themselves on espirit de corps. They never leave a wounded soldier behind, they make sure everyone gets back alive. Additionally, they are ALL soldiers, there isn't any dedicated support staff in the MI. When they go into combat, everyone goes into combat be they private or colonel.

So, it's one thousand of the Mobile Infantry versus one thousand Space Marines. Both forces are deployed from orbit to a resources-rich planet that both the Imperium and the Federation (ignoring the paradox that they are both from the same planet somehow) are interested in. So, who wins, Mobile Infantry or Space Marines?

[tyckspoon]

So, an army where every 'infantry'man is wearing something that, in 40k terms, is much like a Tau battlesuit? I'm betting on the Mobile Infantry.

[sikyon]

Would need a comparison on how strong MI infantry weapons are exactly, as well as what kind of heavy support both sides get.

[Rutee]

Which Space Marines are they, too? And what's the terrain like? I don't plan on participating actively, just.. asking relevant questions.

[WNxHasoroth]

Ultramarines versus Space Marines on Crack.

Warhammer Fanboi that I am, even I'm not going to claim a Marine can stand up to a nuke.

Maybe a Terminator could stand a salvo but thats about it.

Marines get outmaneuvered and outgunned.

[Executor]

Each man in the Mobile Infantry is basically a human tank in that suit. Anything less than a high explosive or anti-tank round won't even dent them. Like I said each man has everything from smallarms (which aren't described in detail that I remember, but I guess would be roughly on par with bolters) to tactical nukes. They're deployed very thin and strung out, about a half a mile between each soldier, but the mobility of the jump jets mounted on their suits makes it easy for them to concentrate forces at any given point. While their powered suits give them extreme strength, they are also dextrous enough to hold a chicken egg without breaking it or, somewhat more practically, fight Arachnids in hand-to-hand combat.

[sikyon]

Each man in the Mobile Infantry is basically a human tank in that suit. Anything less than a high explosive or anti-tank round won't even dent them. Like I said each man has everything from smallarms (which aren't described in detail that I remember, but I guess would be roughly on par with bolters) to tactical nukes. They're deployed very thin and strung out, about a half a mile between each soldier, but the mobility of the jump jets mounted on their suits makes it easy for them to concentrate forces at any given point. While their powered suits give them extreme strength, they are also dextrous enough to hold a chicken egg without breaking it or, somewhat more practically, fight Arachnids in hand-to-hand combat.

Bolter rounds are both explosive and armor-pericing. What level of technology are you talking about when you say "anti tank"? Are you talking modern kinetic energy penetrators, HEAT rounds, ect?

From what I have heard, the starship troopers novel didn't focus on the nitty gritty stats of MI but more on the nitty gritty social concepts involved. Which makes comparison hard.

What sort of power are we talking about on the nuke scale. Just because it is a nuclear device doesn't automatically make it powerful. You could theoretically construct very small ones which would make very small blasts if you wished.

How fast are Mobile Infantry, what sorts of communication do they use, how long can they remain active in the field.

How are Mobile Infantry logistically supplied (very important)

What sort of heavy support do the sides have access to. For example, a 1000 space marine chapter typically not only has access to a rediculously powerful battle barge but also thunderhawk gunships to transport/resupply, orbital bombardment support, land raiders, predators, dreadnoughts, teleporting termintator squads, and units such as psychically powerful librarians.

[Cuddly]

What sort of power are we talking about on the nuke scale. Just because it is a nuclear device doesn't automatically make it powerful. You could theoretically construct very small ones which would make very small blasts if you wished.

Tactical nukes- level parts of a city. Turn a large chunk of terrain into a molten crater without widespread fallout.


How fast are Mobile Infantry, what sorts of communication do they use, how long can they remain active in the field.

They have jump jets that let them leap one or two klicks in a single jump. They communicate with headsets built into their helmets.


How are Mobile Infantry logistically supplied (very important)

Very, very well.


What sort of heavy support do the sides have access to. For example, a 1000 space marine chapter typically not only has access to a rediculously powerful battle barge but also thunderhawk gunships to transport/resupply, orbital bombardment support, land raiders, predators, dreadnoughts, teleporting termintator squads, and units such as psychically powerful librarians.

Presumably this is one thousand space marines vs. one thousand MI, not one MI vs. 1000 space marines & all their backup that isn't actually space marine, but Adeptus Mechanicus. You know, as per the rules in the OP explicitly spelled out.

[SolkaTruesilver]

the MI is, indeed:

- Totally loyal
- Totally motivated
- Totally united

Each of them is a volounteer, and can step out when he wants. They are heavily trained in all form of combat, survival. Their powered armor procure them better hearing, better vision, and incredible intelligence about the location and the situation of their fellow MI.

Mini-nukes are only carried by a few of the MI, but they own about 4 of them for a mission. A 20-men squad has about 2 guys with them (if I remember the first mission shown in the book).

I know that the Space Marines are known to betrayal, self-pettyness. They are stronger, quicker, and more endurance than the MI (biologicaly, I mean). Their basic offensive power is pretty much the equivalent of the MI's, I'd guess (they both own gigantic automatic guns...)

I also know that Space Marines have some sort of mental powers... the librarians, no?

The MI's powered armor is, indeed, really strong. However, they are still vulnerable to lucky hits. A few bullets at the right place can go trough the armor. But they can manage explosions, can speed at 50 mph, and make 200 meter jumps (not recommended, because a MI is exposed in the air)

I don't know the level of tactical training of every Space Marine, but I know that the MI's tactic is REALLY sound, and not prone to stupid cartoonish foolishness

[sikyon]

Tactical nukes- level parts of a city. Turn a large chunk of terrain into a molten crater without widespread fallout.


How are these delivered and what are the range. Are we talking something like over the horizon?


They have jump jets that let them leap one or two klicks in a single jump. They communicate with headsets built into their helmets.

How far can the jump jets let them travel before refuling, how long can MI stay awake.


Very, very well.


Are resources airlifted in, are they dropped from space, are they teleported in, ect.


Presumably this is one thousand space marines vs. one thousand MI, not one MI vs. 1000 space marines & all their backup that isn't actually space marine, but Adeptus Mechanicus. You know, as per the rules in the OP explicitly spelled out.

What's a space marine. Does the power armor count? Does Terminator Armor count? Does a dreadnought sarcophagus count? That's abit broad.

Also, without heavy support how are they even being resupplied.

Warfare is all about logistics and moral my friend. Space marines are well supplied by combinations of Thunderhawk drops and Drop Pods. Space marines also have unbreakable morale.

Edit:



I know that the Space Marines are known to betrayal, self-pettyness. They are stronger, quicker, and more endurance than the MI (biologicaly, I mean). Their basic offensive power is pretty much the equivalent of the MI's, I'd guess (they both own gigantic automatic guns...)

They are, in fact, not. The primarchs were suceptible to those things as any man was, and Space Marines are loyal to their primarchs and followed them into damnation. Your average space marine does not think for himself unless in a position of command, and commanders follow those above him unquestionanly. Which is how the Primarchs were able to turn their legions and bring them into madness.



I don't know the level of tactical training of every Space Marine, but I know that the MI's tactic is REALLY sound, and not prone to stupid cartoonish foolishness

Space marines are masters of tactics on both small and large scales. Each space marine spends every moment of his life training, with live fire excersizes every day, and has undergone psycho-chemical conditioning to turn him into the perfect soilder mentally.

[Renegade Paladin]

Space marines are masters of tactics on both small and large scales. Each space marine spends every moment of his life training, with live fire excersizes every day, and has undergone psycho-chemical conditioning to turn him into the perfect soilder mentally.
And it should be noted that they live for centuries unless killed, so "every moment of his life" is a lot of combat training.

[Destro_Yersul]

Depends on the Terrain too. Open plains, where everyone just fires back and forth at each other? Much as I like 40k, that goes to the MI. Once you start dropping cover it shifts further and further towards the space marine end of things.

Oh yes. And then you get things like Devastator squads, which are just space marines with heavy(er) weaponry. Terminators are even nastier, though for the sake of argument I'll assume they're not included. If you include even scouts with sniper rifles they can drop MI without being seen, by putting rounds through visors and whatnot.

Nukes, I don't think marines could survive directly. But their hardened physiology could resist radiation poisoning a lot better than a regular human, and if all they get hit by is the force of the explosion, say two or three km from ground zero, that they could take no problem.

[ZeroNumerous]

Presumably this is one thousand space marines vs. one thousand MI, not one MI vs. 1000 space marines & all their backup that isn't actually space marine, but Adeptus Mechanicus. You know, as per the rules in the OP explicitly spelled out.

Actually.. Their support is also Adeptus Astares. Battle Barges are piloted entirely by Space Marines, sans the repair crews(which are a paltry few Techpriests and quite a few servitors).

[plainsfox]

Imitation is the highest form of flattery, although it can sometimes be the worst insult imaginable. I'm not sure what side of the fence the Space Marines are in regards to the MID will fall on for my own part, although it is decidedly the latter for now.


As it stands, I'm going to say the MID. I've yet to see any GW workshop books placed on any academy's reading list.

[Thangorodrim]

Presumably this is one thousand space marines vs. one thousand MI, not one MI vs. 1000 space marines & all their backup that isn't actually space marine, but Adeptus Mechanicus. You know, as per the rules in the OP explicitly spelled out.

You know everything he described in that segment, maybe excluding the battlebarge, is either a space marine, or driven by one ? :smallbiggrin:


Tactical nukes- level parts of a city. Turn a large chunk of terrain into a molten crater without widespread fallout.

Just post a quote from the novel, the above means nowt :smallwink:


If its a thousand marines with bolters on a field, versus a thousand MI , I might go for the MI.

A chapter of marines with their standard equipment is going to wipe the floor with a thousand MI troops. Greater strategic mobility, extremely tough armoured vehicles, plentiful AA heavy weaponry, supersonic gunships etc.



As it stands, I'm going to say the MID. I've yet to see any GW workshop books placed on any academy's reading list.

You don't see lots of things on academy reading lists, it really doesn't mean anything relevent to this discussion.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Meh, I'm not convinced that 'micro-nukes' could exist. Sure, you could make them so that they were always subcritical, but then that would involve tacking on a whole bunch of extra junk to actually make them do anything.

[RandomLogic]

I'm going to give this one to the Mobile Infantry. For a couple reasons.

Space Marines are impressive physical specimens without armor, and the Mobile infantry are just 'normal' people (ie not genetically engineered clones from gods). That being said, now we've put both of these troops in advanced armor and thrown them at each other.

So I think it comes out to how you evaluate the MI armor compared to the SM armor. We know they have jump jets so those are at least equivalent to jump packs from W40k. Now the harder part comes in when you take a look at their armor. It looks about as bulky as SM armor for standard tactical units. Normal Person + Bulky armor = MI, Abnormal Person + Armor = SM. So I think their loadouts are pretty equal. That being said though, all the MI are equivalent to Jump Jet Infantry in W40k.

Regardless of all the other tactics and weapons, I think the mobility gives the MI the edge. If you pit two forces with nearly the same armor and weapons against each other, and one of em can move nearly 3 times as fast without running, they win.

Mobile Infantry > w40k. (I must admit, I didn't expect anyone to put out a thread where it involved w40k and wasn't god awfully ridiculous, though I like W40k lore in general though...)

Edit: Just noted that this was a chapter vs 1000 MI. If it were 1000 MI vs 1000 Tactical Space marines I think MI win easily. But a chapter is more than just Tactical SMs. I still think MI wins for mobility, even versus tanks and termies if you eval MI armor = MK7 armor and not Terminator Armor.

[Voidhawk]

Micro-nukes already exist, many different sides have them at the moment.

The Soviet union designed and tested "Briefcase" bombs, literally a metal briefcase shaped object with a nuke inside. They were designed to demolish buildings and to be used as traps at choke-points and the like in the event of a land invasion of Russia from Europe. (Worryingly, at the break up of the Soviet union a load of them went missing from a warehouse. Someone simply walked out the door with them :smalleek:)

[RandomLogic]

Micro-nukes already exist, many different sides have them at the moment.

The Soviet union designed and tested "Briefcase" bombs, literally a metal briefcase shaped object with a nuke inside. They were designed to demolish buildings and to be used as traps at choke-points and the like in the event of a land invasion of Russia from Europe. (Worryingly, at the break up of the Soviet union a load of them went missing from a warehouse. Someone simply walked out the door with them :smalleek:)

Also Crysis has a Tac Launcher which fired mini nukes. South Park created a snizz... which is a 'breifcase' nuke of sorts....

Mini nukes do exist, I think they are more prone to being dirty bombs due to incomplete detonation though.

[LordVader]

Mobile Infantry. They're faster, with better range and more destructive weaponry.

Not even a contest. Make it the CGI PAMI ones, and it's closer, but the book ones will own Space Marines easily.

[Renegade Paladin]

He said 1,000 Mobile Infantry vs. a full Chapter, not 1,000 Mobile Infantry vs. 1,000 tactical Marines. I'm sorry, if it comes to it the Chapter's battle barge simply bombards the planet.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Micro-nukes already exist, many different sides have them at the moment.

The Soviet union designed and tested "Briefcase" bombs, literally a metal briefcase shaped object with a nuke inside. They were designed to demolish buildings and to be used as traps at choke-points and the like in the event of a land invasion of Russia from Europe. (Worryingly, at the break up of the Soviet union a load of them went missing from a warehouse. Someone simply walked out the door with them :smalleek:)

I'm aware of briefcase bombs, it's but firing objects that size will be difficult without a dedicated launcher. Also, remember that, it they're that big, you'll have trouble carrying many of them. The Davy Crockett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_%28nuclear_device%29) is the smallest nuclear warhead made by the US Army, and the casing alone is nearly the size of a man's torso.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/DavyCrockettBomb.jpg


Also Crysis has a Tac Launcher which fired mini nukes. South Park created a snizz... which is a 'breifcase' nuke of sorts....

Mini nukes do exist, I think they are more prone to being dirty bombs due to incomplete detonation though.

Exactly - but dirty bombs aren't really military weapons, because they act too slowly.

[RandomLogic]

Exactly - but dirty bombs aren't really military weapons, because they act too slowly.

Oh very true, I was just stating what I thought I knew about them. Its more a if I can't have it, no one can approach, instead of 10 years after nukes its a whole bunch more.

But it is still a bomb though, anything that blows up is a weapon at the very least ;)

[Illiterate Scribe]

Oh very true, I was just stating what I thought I knew about them. Its more a if I can't have it, no one can approach, instead of 10 years after nukes its a whole bunch more.

But it is still a bomb though, anything that blows up is a weapon at the very least ;)

Pah - most of the Imperium lives under a constant radiation cloud. Why do you think that there are so many mutants?

[puppyavenger]

Pah - most of the Imperium lives under a constant radiation cloud. Why do you think that there are so many mutants?

while the hive worlds, the rest is chaos, chaos tainted evolotion and chaos tainted radiotion and a very strange evolotion pattern probably influenced by chaos.

[Seraph]

The Davy Crockett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_%28nuclear_device%29) is the smallest nuclear warhead made by the US Army, and the casing alone is nearly the size of a man's torso.


So? that makes it about the size of the MI's finger.

[Storm Bringer]

A thousand powered armoured MI VSa full Space marine chapter, with all it's gear (ruling out the obital stuff for now. that sort of firepower reshapes landscapes)?

SMurfs all the way. superior CnC, Atry on site, armour on site, air support on call, ability to survive anything but a direct hit form a tac-nuke (these don't have that big a blast. the Crockett would only insta-kill within about 150m, and that from radiation. say, for arguements sake, that the MI nuke has a blast about that size.), since both their suits and themselves are built to withstand exteme condictions.

I'd rate MI armour as being somewhat simmilar to tau XV88 crysis suits (in a very general sense. it's the closest 40K gets). Now, the SMurf's have avilable a LOT of things that could penatrate that level of armour. Hell, even bolters if enough fire was brought to bear. Since thier formations are very spead out, the logical tactics would be to ambush lone troopers with a full squad of marines and/or hit and run attacks form bike or land speeder units (all the SMurf armour is operated by the marines, and are intergal to the unit as a whole).

It all depends on how open the terrian is. On a flat plain with zero cover, short of satuation bombard from orbit, the odds are against the Smurfs once the Nukes start flying, and they havn't got the long range firepower to stop the MI forcing a nuke carrier into range (though they'd lose a few fiar guys getting him close enough). In a city, with cover to hide in, the Mi would find that thier open formations woulf lead to smaller elements being overwhelmed quickly by much greater numbers of SMurfs. Sure, they'd close thier formations up pretty quick, but that'd just make area attacks (whirlwinds, bombing/attack runs by thunderhawks, lighter orbit pieces)) so much more effective. with nothing better than thier suits, they'd be out-manuvered by airlifted troops and tanks, and find they're facing a foe who can redeploy heavier equipment faster than they can, thus letting them bring more power to the point of decision.

and, the SMurfs utter ruthlessness gives them a slight edge. Their more than happy to use everything in thier arsenal to attack with, while the MI is going ot be at least a little reluctant to bring out the nukes without good reason.

however. the above relies heavily on terrian. the more open, the better for The MI, the closer, the better for the SMurfs.

[Deadmeat.GW]

If facing 1000 plain tactical marines and without any support weapons, no special units, no extra's, no vehicles, no anti-tank support then guess what, the MI will crush the marines into a small paste.

We are talking the equivalent of Tau Broadsides+ for firepower but with jumpjets (and very good jumpjets at that).

However the OP said a chapter of marines.

A chapter of 1000 combat active marines (and for sake of keeping the numbers correct we will assume any librarians, sergeants, veterans, terminators, drivers and so-on are all included in this 1000 number) will take down the 1000 MI.
Unless the MI starts immediately by throwing every pocketnuke they have that the marines they will actually be taken down faster then they can kill the chapter.
In the end however the Chapter will at the very least suffer such horrendous casualties that they will need a century or so to rebuilt their numbers.

One Dreadnought and a bunch of Terminators would be soo tough that the standard weapon load the MI have would barely do anything.
They would have to nuke them and those guys might actually survive that.
Don't forget, Terminator armour was actually designed originally for working inside plasma reactors...

A nuke will kill one point-blank but if it is off by a bit or the terminator has some cover...

The MI wants slightly hilly terrain without broken ground and with no vegetation at all for the best effect.
That would provide them with the best opportunities and the marines with the most issues as a lot of the marines best armour cracking stuff is very much straightline weaponry, lascannons, multi-melta's, meltaguns, plasmaguns, heavy plasmas, ...

[Alex Knight]

technically, it's 1 Marine chapter vs 1 MI Regiment. an MI regiment is more than just the guys with guns. It also has support elements, just like the Marine chapter. :smallcool:

[Storm Bringer]

technically, it's 1 Marine chapter vs 1 MI Regiment. an MI regiment is more than just the guys with guns. It also has support elements, just like the Marine chapter. :smallcool:

ok. cool

name what they've got, so we can make some comparisons.

[SolkaTruesilver]

ok. cool

name what they've got, so we can make some comparisons.

They don't have much support, sadly. They have a powerful fleet, a psi-corps for intel, K-9 corps for intel.. but that's it.

the MI serves as both the infantry, the armor division and air superiority. The artillery role is supported with the Fleet, who can splinter a planet in half with Nova Bombs.

The MI develop specific bio-weapons against aliens, and adapt it's tactics and strategy when they are loosing.

[sikyon]

This is how I see it:

They both want this world. It depends what they want, specifically. If, for exmpale, they went after the cities then I think the marines would have an outright advantage. In such urban terrain jump packs become very useful but any sort of range advantage would be negated in close-quarters firefights with marines. Nukes can't be used for fear of destroying the objective. Marines would also probably have superior endurance in a cityfight setting where they have superhuman stamina, unlike normal humans.

If they just met on an open battlefield however, MI would win due to mobility.

But this is why SM win: If they attack, they attack strategic assets and secure them, and after that they hold the asset until heavy support arrives. This is how they would operate.

I'm not sure what MI would do against htis if they were afraid of destroying the objective with nuclear wepaons. And if MI were not afraid of using nuclear wepons, marines would retaliate with continent scarring orbital bombardments from rediculously powerful 40k ships.

[Illiterate Scribe]

So? that makes it about the size of the MI's finger.

Shoop da whoop! Those things are mecha, not infantry! Any source on the size (not doubting, just WP doesn't give a scale).

[Storm Bringer]

Shoop da whoop! Those things are mecha, not infantry! Any source on the size (not doubting, just WP doesn't give a scale).

not really mech sized more big powered armour. say.....oh 12 feet tops?

[Seraph]

not really mech sized more big powered armour. say.....oh 12 feet tops?

you sure? 'cause the head on that thing looks a lot more like a cockpit than a helmet, and the pilot's back would be hell of ruined if he had to stoop like that for extended combat. it looks a lot bigger than 12 feet.

[SolkaTruesilver]

you sure? 'cause the head on that thing looks a lot more like a cockpit than a helmet, and the pilot's back would be hell of ruined if he had to stoop like that for extended combat. it looks a lot bigger than 12 feet.

nonono, these things are 15 feets top.

And in the book, he clearly say: you WEAR a powered armor, you do not drive it.

However, he clearly states that a human corpse is WAY more lighter than the munitions used in a mission by a single MI.

[plainsfox]

It would help if people in this debate would read the book Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein. It's not an expensive book and it's fifty years old. You can walk into any used bookshop and buy a copy for dirt cheap.

[Sarastro]

I suppose this has been said before but there but two words in favor of the MI. . . .tactical nukes. . .
I know that the Imperial Space Marines can call in planet killers if necessary, but having one man per squad with atomic fire on demand is a major combat advantage. While technology may not be the sole deciding factor on the battle field, I'd say that the vastly different tactical philosophies of the SMs vs. MI would decide the matter. The Mobile Infantry is exactly what it's name suggests, mobile. In my reading of ST, the MI's entire combat philosophy was build around rapidly deployable, rapidly maneuvering infanty with on-call orbital and personal heavy artillery. The Space Marines seem more defensive in a way, thanks to their entire tactical doctrine. Stand your ground and blast screaming, undisciplined hordes of green skins. I hate to use analogies. . . but. . .
The SMs are like Roman Legionaries, peerless heavy infantry, in a face to face fight, you loose.
The MI are like Mongol horse archers, rapid and hard hitting.

Hmmm.

Maybe this is just my Heinlein fan-self talking. . .

[plainsfox]

Don't forget about the Planet Busters Johnny mentioned in the last chapter.

And remember, it was the hordes of Barbarians that brought Rome down.

[Sarastro]

Don't forget about the Planet Busters Johnny mentioned in the last chapter.

And remember, it was the hordes of Barbarians that brought Rome down.

Thanks for the reminder about the planet killers. . .I don't forgot.

Not to be too much of a structuralist historian but I would contend that the real reason for the collapse of the Roman Army was the disintegration of the unique social structure which long existed to ensure the legions of Rome marched. It wasn't the barbarians superior military forces. . .by the time of Attila (5th Cent AD), the Roman Legions were but a shadow of their glorious selves (i.e. 1st AD)

[SolkaTruesilver]

And remember, it was the hordes of Barbarians that brought Rome down.

I think it was his point.. :smallbiggrin:

Off course, I'd begin to argue about the sociological ramifications of Rome at the time, but I think I'll shut my yap for now.

[Illiterate Scribe]

What is the MI close combat capability? It would prevent them from using their nukes, and, although they're smaller, the SMs are fairly nasty at it.

[Storm Bringer]

No, it's a valid comparision. That's why close terrian would help the SMurfs so much.

If they have cover to hide in, they can quickly ambush a small number of MI with overwhelming firepower, then rapidly disperse and move on to another target. Given enough T'hawk and land speeder support, they could out-manuver the MI, no probs (i'm not sure how good the MI is against high speed targets with flight celings in the tens of miles.).

Also, we're fighting at epic scale here, which is a much more mobile form of warfare than vanilla 40K.

[SolkaTruesilver]

What is the MI close combat capability? It would prevent them from using their nukes, and, although they're smaller, the SMs are fairly nasty at it.

They all have a flamethrower

[Sarastro]

They all have a flamethrower

Actually, I think the MI's load out is alot heavier than that. I seem to remember, chain gun on one arm, flamer on the other, HE/AP rockets on right shoulder, Atomic rockets on left shoulder.

But we forget about the one piece of kit that Space Marines have that ensures their victory over all comers. . . chainswords. :smallbiggrin:

[Eita]

I've read the book, and really, it all depends on whether or not the MI are willing to use nukes.

[Sarastro]

I've read the book, and really, it all depends on whether or not the MI are willing to use nukes.
In the end, it always comes down to the nukes. Or at least that is what the movies tell us. . .
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NukeEm

[DEFCON Clown]

The SMurfs utter ruthlessness gives them a slight edge. Their more than happy to use everything in thier arsenal to attack with, while the MI is going ot be at least a little reluctant to bring out the nukes without good reason.

At the beginning of Starship Troopers (the book) while going on a raid against a city and trying not to kill many civilians they MI are instructed not bring back any of their nukes.

[Oslecamo]

Hmm, just to say the SM chapter also has troops with personal jump packs.

And I also remember those troops can carry melta bombs, wich are pretty good at blowing up armor.

There's even a piece of fluff where a group of these marines is tasked with destroying a group of Tau crisis suits wich keeps jumping around, and they're sucessfull on it.

[Draik Tempest]

These are the Mobile Infantry invisioned in Heinlein's book, they are an elite 'armoured infantry' force that relies on shock, mobility and firepower. Each individual soldier is armed with everything from smallarms to micro-nuclear warheads. Their powered armour suits give them the appearance of a 'steel gorilla', with enough strength to crumple tanks or tear through concrete wall. They are dropped from orbit in individual pods and manuevre on the battlefield with the aid of jump jets and rocket packs. The Mobile Infantry pride themselves on espirit de corps. They never leave a wounded soldier behind, they make sure everyone gets back alive. Additionally, they are ALL soldiers, there isn't any dedicated support staff in the MI. When they go into combat, everyone goes into combat be they private or colonel.


The Mobile Infantry sound like the EXACT SAME as the Space Marines. The only thing it would come down to is a coin flip (or dice roll as it were) as to who would win. They both have decent equipment, although if it were the Dark Angels vs Mobile Infantry, the Dark Angels would win hands down, especially with, I believe, Sammeal or maybe Belias, on their side (hundreds of men in terminator army dropping right on top of the enemy... Have a Nice Day.).

[Illiterate Scribe]

Hmm, just to say the SM chapter also has troops with personal jump packs.

And I also remember those troops can carry melta bombs, wich are pretty good at blowing up armor.

There's even a piece of fluff where a group of these marines is tasked with destroying a group of Tau crisis suits wich keeps jumping around, and they're sucessfull on it.

That's exactly what I was thinking about, too - to be brutally honest, I'm skeptical about the wisdom of using flame weapons as a closequarter weapon against superhumans that wear an all-enclosing sealed exoskeleton that itself has an ceramic, heat-resistant exoskeleton. It all does depend on whether or not the marines get within the two blocks blast radius of the Davy Crockett, and thus the point at which the MI stop being able to blow anything to pieces effortlessly. At close range, the larger size of the MI will become a vulnerability, since it will be harder for them to dodge; I also imagine that they aren't dextrous enough to scrape of melta bombs.

All in all, it depends on the terrain - the nuclear option weights things heavily in the Mobile Infantry's favour, but I can see an ambush/counter attack from the objective using Assault Marines toting meltabombs (do Shrike's Wing have meltabombs) being a winning tactic, since they wouldn't want to irradiate/destroy what they wanted to capture.

A Terminator Squad, with either chainfists or thunderhammers would be even better at this, until the MI retreated, although the hammers could deal with the latter somewhat. Remember, their impeccable fighting spirit means that they won't fire on their own, since they want to bring all their members back alive - Marines, on the other hand, being much more pragmatic, eg mercy-killing their mortally wounded dead.

[Eita]

Then again, that's because of gene-seed. If a Space Marine dies, he still lives on in the form of the initiate who receives it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Then again, that's because of gene-seed. If a Space Marine dies, he still lives on in the form of the initiate who receives it.

It's still remarkably pragmatic for the 40k-verse. Question is, would they fire on their enemies, knowing that a few of their own were caught in crossfire?

[Eita]

The death of a Space Marine is nothing if it increases the Glory of the Emperor. Besides, they have in-helmet comms. They could just say, "Duck" over the helmets.

[Illiterate Scribe]

The death of a Space Marine is nothing if it increases the Glory of the Emperor. Besides, they have in-helmet comms. They could just say, "Duck" over the helmets.

I was talking about missile based stuff. Boom, 'n' stuff.

[Eita]

The death of a Space Marine is nothing if it increases the Glory of the Emperor.

What? Quotes don't count towards amount of characters in the post?

[Illiterate Scribe]

What? Quotes don't count towards amount of characters in the post?

I know - I think that's to avoid QFTs. I was actually being rhetorical, there - the SMs can launch what are in effect suicide strikes (pin down enemy in combat, then blast from orbit/big tank), whereas the nukes have an effective min. range for firing of 2 blocks.

[Eita]

...

Que?

No seriously, what?

[sikyon]

Realistically, Space Marines would rarely be in nukable conditions.

Space marines are an Elite Strike Force, who do not fight battles on open ground for no reason other than to engage their enemy. They either defend strategic positions (which would make it hard to nuke them) or they attack vital positions (again making it hard to nuke them).

In an open fight, marines wouldn't even engage. Orbital bombardments would wipe out opponents. Whenever you could nuke someone, a space marine could call in an orbital strike.

I could, however, see nuclear missiles being a problem against thunderhawk gunships and drop pods. Therefore, orbital terminator teleportation would be the order of the day.

[Captain van der Decken]

...

Que?

No seriously, what?

It's to avoid people just quoting someone's whole post and saying QFT. Doesn't really add much to a discussion.

[Destro_Yersul]

Just remembered something. Swings this in the SM favour, if they get to use them and, considering the MI get nukes, I think they should be allowed.

Drop pods.

What do you do about a bunch of marines dropping down out of the sky at speeds too high for AA fire to track, popping hatches, and jumping out with guns blazing not twenty feet from your position?

[Rutee]

The Mobile Infantry sound like the EXACT SAME as the Space Marines. The only thing it would come down to is a coin flip (or dice roll as it were) as to who would win. They both have decent equipment, although if it were the Dark Angels vs Mobile Infantry, the Dark Angels would win hands down, especially with, I believe, Sammeal or maybe Belias, on their side (hundreds of men in terminator army dropping right on top of the enemy... Have a Nice Day.).

I'm pretty sure that's backwards, for once.. :P

[Alex Knight]

Just remembered something. Swings this in the
What do you do about a bunch of marines dropping down out of the sky at speeds too high for AA fire to track, popping hatches, and jumping out with guns blazing not twenty feet from your position?

well, first off, prox-fused nuclear airbursts.

Secondly, the MI has basically the same deployment pattern,

[Solo]

Will the faction that has spent millenia fighting the meanest, nastiest things in the entire universe for the glory of mankind please raise their hand?

[NEO|Phyte]

Will the faction that has spent millenia fighting the meanest, nastiest things in the entire universe for the glory of mankind please raise their hand?

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2433/spacemarinews5.png

If I knew enough about either side to add something useful, I would. As it is, I enjoy these threads. Carry on.

[Oslecamo]

Well, both sides have been fighting the meanest, nastiest things in their own universe for the glory of mankind.

Mind you, in the Wh40k universe it's the Imperial guard wich does 90% of the fighting. The space marines are an elite force called to deal with the hardest situations, but it's the IG wich does all the dirty work like repelling the regular ork attacks from all sides, crushing the minor chaos cults that are constantly spwaning everywhere, etc, etc.

The mobile infantry, on the other side, does all of the fighting for mankind against the "alien" forces.

[sikyon]

Just remembered something. Swings this in the SM favour, if they get to use them and, considering the MI get nukes, I think they should be allowed.

Drop pods.

What do you do about a bunch of marines dropping down out of the sky at speeds too high for AA fire to track, popping hatches, and jumping out with guns blazing not twenty feet from your position?

It's not really too fast for AA fire to track, drop pods typically suffer high casualty rates when AA fire is still intact. Typically what happens is:

If they enemy knows they are comming then orbital strikes demolish anti space defense and then hit anti air defense. Typically anti air defenses are then moved to saftey but are supressed. Thunderhawks move in to drop marines off, and are better armored and are maneuverable. May take AA fire.

Drop pods are only used as a first strike measure if the enemy is caught totally unawares or they need to get stuff down fast, regardless of casualties. Drop Pod casualties are HIGH. I wouldn't risk it against enemies packing nuclear weapons on their infantry, but I probably would risk it to resupply (but not reinforce).

[Solo]

Let us compare aliens.


Mobile infantry go up against "giant space bugs", correct? I imagine they are extremely tough to kill and etc?

Now, let's consider what Space Marines go up against. And remember, the IG does most of the fighting. Space Marines only take out the toughest of the enemies described below.

So far, we have:

Tau: Imperialist aliens, who live on only because the Glorious Imperium of Man is too busy fighting the enemies further down on the list. Still, pretty decent combat abilities.

Eldar: A race of beings that once ruled over the entire galaxy, and, having nothing better to do, almost destroyed it, spawning....

Dark Eldar: twisted and utterly evil servants of Slaansh, revel in piracy, enslavement and torture, and are sadistic in the extreme. Plus, they have the same technologies as the powerful Eldar. Not pleasant.

Tyranids: They make the Zerg look like housecats by comparison. Will mow your lawn, house, county, district, state, country, and planet clean of all life before moving on to the next course.

Orks: Mean, lean, and green. Make poor neighbors, due to their genocidal tenancies. Possess the capacity to overrun the entire galaxy and crush all other factions if united. Also, WAAAAAAAAAGH!!!

Necrons: Souless abominations of living metal who's only purpose is to cleanse the galaxy of all life, down to the last speck of bacterium. Often wake up on the wrong side of bed and proceed to genocide everyone on the same planet as them.

Chaos: The beings of the Warp do BAD THINGS to people. BAD THINGS!

Chaos Space Marines: The evil twin of Space Marines. Somewhat more unpleasant to have attacking you than regular Space Marines, due to their Chaos derived powers, millenia of combat experience, and general nastiness.

Khorne followers will rip your body apart limb from limb, Tzneechians will mind crush you, while Slaansh and Nurgle will combine forces to give you some sort of STD.

[plainsfox]

As Heinlein himself says in the book, dumb races don't build starships. To add to that, dumb races don't raid Planets and slingshot asteroids at the homeworlds of their enemies. Have you read the book, Solo? You *might* change your opinion if you did.

[Solo]

As Heinlein himself says in the book, dumb races don't build starships. To add to that, dumb races don't raid Planets and slingshot asteroids at the homeworlds of their enemies.

Yes yes, that happens in WH40K too. All races listed above are spacefaring and lethal upon contact.

[plainsfox]

I know of the 40k universe ;) Space Erfs, Space Drow, Space Undead, Space Orks, Bugs, and a race designed to cash in on the demise of FASA.

The question is, do you know anything of the book that gave the germ of imagination so that there would be Space Marines and Tyranids?

[Solo]

Apparently, they fight bugs with super-tech.

[plainsfox]

Now, compare and contrast. The space marines fight mushrooms with high tech.

[Selrahc]

Drop pods are only used as a first strike measure if the enemy is caught totally unawares or they need to get stuff down fast, regardless of casualties. Drop Pod casualties are HIGH. I wouldn't risk it against enemies packing nuclear weapons on their infantry, but I probably would risk it to resupply (but not reinforce).

Well most of the drop pods are either empty, or contain automatic turret devices, so that there are lots of fake targets, and the ones containing actual astartes are much more heavily armoured than normal.

Plus ,you know, they are pretty hard to get a bead on with Anti Air fire, and the Space Marines are tough enough to survive most mishaps.


I don't think the casualty rate on a Space Marine drop pod assault is too bad.

When the guard deploy drop pods on the other hand.... No decoys. No discretion as to where the pods get dropped. No extra armour. And weak smushy bodies inside. Large portions of the force are dropped into oceans, or other unlandable terrain. And enough pods are dropped that the entire biosystem of the planet gets thrown into havoc.

[Dervag]

It's not really too fast for AA fire to track, drop pods typically suffer high casualty rates when AA fire is still intact. Typically what happens is:

If they enemy knows they are comming then orbital strikes demolish anti space defense and then hit anti air defense. Typically anti air defenses are then moved to saftey but are supressed. Thunderhawks move in to drop marines off, and are better armored and are maneuverable. May take AA fire.

Drop pods are only used as a first strike measure if the enemy is caught totally unawares or they need to get stuff down fast, regardless of casualties. Drop Pod casualties are HIGH. I wouldn't risk it against enemies packing nuclear weapons on their infantry, but I probably would risk it to resupply (but not reinforce).Also, the MI have what amounts to drop pod capability themselves; they drop from orbiting ships in platoon to battalion strength.

[Solo]

Now, compare and contrast. The space marines fight mushrooms with high tech.

I am under the impression that they fight other things, some of which are more lethal than the mushrooms.

[plainsfox]

Nope. Mushrooms. I say this because I have read atleast some of the material behind 40k. Have you read Starship Troopers yet?

[Rutee]

I believe Plainsfox is referring to Orks, which are effectively sentient fungi.

Sentient Fungi with a WAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHH!!!!

[plainsfox]

Aww...and I was waiting to see how long it took him to figure it out. Doh! Anyrate, I just wanted to point out how easily the opponents can be dismissed.

As for myself, I view the Psuedo-Arachnids with a mix of info from the book and a mix of info from the movie. The bugs were the only thing Veorhoeven did well in the movie.

[Captain van der Decken]

Nope. Mushrooms. I say this because I have read atleast some of the material behind 40k. Have you read Starship Troopers yet?

In less than an hour? Damn, you must be a fast reader.

[plainsfox]

No. I've been....exposed... to WH40k stuff before. I only ask that those pro SM players read Starship Troopers before making a judgement.

[Selrahc]

No. I've been....exposed... to WH40k stuff before. I only ask that those pro SM players read Starship Troopers before making a judgement.

And I'm guessing not the movie, or the wargame?

(The wargame has Mobile Infantry as damn badass. Based off the books and all. But nukes are in sharply limited supply, so I guess not fully at the power of the books)

[plainsfox]

The movie doesn't help you so much as Verhoeven(sp) himself didn't read but a few pages of Starship Troopers. The Board Game, I don't know. I've read a few pages of source material around it and it sounds closer to the movie version than the book.

[Storm Bringer]

No. I've been....exposed... to WH40k stuff before. I only ask that those pro SM players read Starship Troopers before making a judgement.

I've read it, a Long time ago. I have reason to belive that the Bugs were at a comparable tech level to the Feds in that setting.

I also seem to remember that the protagonist in the story was given a Nuke, which was only the second time he'd been given one, and the first time he'd used one in combat, with the other time in thier training.

[Illiterate Scribe]

The question is, do you know anything of the book that gave the germ of imagination so that there would be Space Marines and Tyranids?

If we're going by literary imagination here, then everything on this forum is dead. Also, Starship Troopers is a slightly dubious book, in my opinion, but we're not here to discuss the merits of source material.

[plainsfox]

Well....what are we discussing then? BOOM. ALL source material is gone. All we have left are their respective names. I'll take Mobile Infantry over Space Marine. Mobile Infantry sounds better than Space Marine (Marines, but in SPAAACE!)...and if that's what the argument falls down to, then it's a matter of personal choice.

Now you come and make a reply and say that "But space marines sound cooler! YES! WAY TO GO ME!" and add another kill marker to your threads won signature and we're done here.

[Oslecamo]

I believe Plainsfox is referring to Orks, which are effectively sentient fungi.

Sentient Fungi with a WAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHH!!!!

They have a symbiotic relation with fungi, but are animals, since they have muscles and they ingest organic matter, while fungis are absorb their food directly from their body surface.

The closes thing in RL is the likens, wich are an unique symbiotic relationship between fungi and algi. The 2 beings are born, live, reproduce and die togheter, and it's impossible to distinguish where one starts and the other ends.

I would say orks are like likens, a perfect symbiotic relationship between animal and fungis

Anyway, this is all speculation from the latest human researches. Orks aren't very willing to colaborate.

[Storm Bringer]

Mobile Infantry sounds better than Space Marine

I prefer Adeptus Astartes, as a name. Go go High Gothic naming!


Well....what are we discussing then?

the non political elements of the book. In particular, tactics and equipment of the MI.

edit:[gammar nazi] note to those trying to verify the statments of the poster above me: it's spelt 'lichen'[/grammar nazi]

[Solo]

In less than an hour? Damn, you must be a fast reader.

To be fair, if he expects me to have read Starship Troopers in less than an hour, he should be able to do the same.


And yes, I know the mushrooms in WH40K go WAAAAAAGH!!!!


No. I've been....exposed... to WH40k stuff before.

Yes. I've been....exposed... to Starship Troopers stuff before.

I have the impression that the WH40K universe is filled with much more hostile life forms than the Starship Troopers one.

[plainsfox]

To be threatened by anything, you need to be able to take it seriously. Honestly, nothing in the WH40K Universe can be taken seriously. It seems to be motivated by the Dragonball Z Superhero quotient where the opposing side increases his power a hundred fold when the next Codex comes out. It makes a discussion of the merits of each side a trifle hard, wouldn't you agree?

[Solo]

To be threatened by anything, you need to be able to take it seriously. Honestly, nothing in the WH40K Universe can be taken seriously. It seems to be motivated by the Dragonball Z Superhero quotient where the opposing side increases his power a hundred fold when the next Codex comes out. It makes a discussion of the merits of each side a trifle hard, wouldn't you agree?

No.
__________________





:smalltongue:


Better than a book with many militaristic, facist, and racist overtones, whose characters exists solely to spout of Heinlein's political viewpoints.:smallyuk:


I also find it amusing that the man who favors the soldiers wiht micro-nukes complaining about fanwankery. :smallamused:

[Selrahc]

To be threatened by anything, you need to be able to take it seriously. Honestly, nothing in the WH40K Universe can be taken seriously. It seems to be motivated by the Dragonball Z Superhero quotient where the opposing side increases his power a hundred fold when the next Codex comes out. It makes a discussion of the merits of each side a trifle hard, wouldn't you agree?

No?

The codexes don't indicate an upward shift in fluff power levels at all.

Fluff is at its most powerful in novels, and its generally been fairly consistent across the years. The Imperium has always been a monlithic space empire, that was capable of losing countless billions of troops in the cracks of its interstellar bueracracy. Space Marines have always been hyper elite angels of death, and in fact from first to second, and second to third the power of the space marine army list has decreased.

Thier enemies have remained the same types of beings too.

I don't see where you are getting this idea that 40K has experienced the same experience as Dragonball. Its always been pretty consistently uber.

[Illiterate Scribe]

No.
__________________

:smalltongue:

Better than a book with many militaristic, facist, and racist overtones, whose characters exists solely to spout of Heinlein's political viewpoints.:smallyuk:

I also find it amusing that the man who favors the soldiers wiht micro-nukes complaining about fanwankery. :smallamused:

Boo-yah! It's not entirely accurate, but the big hat of being right lies on your head, Solo.

[Rutee]

They have a symbiotic relation with fungi, but are animals, since they have muscles and they ingest organic matter, while fungis are absorb their food directly from their body surface.

The closes thing in RL is the likens, wich are an unique symbiotic relationship between fungi and algi. The 2 beings are born, live, reproduce and die togheter, and it's impossible to distinguish where one starts and the other ends.

I would say orks are like likens, a perfect symbiotic relationship between animal and fungis

Anyway, this is all speculation from the latest human researches. Orks aren't very willing to colaborate.
Duly noted. Bio isn't my strong suit anyway, so I was mostly going off the superficial similarity in using Spores.

And I half agree with plainsfox in that one can't take 40k seriously. I just don't see why that's relevant. There's a definite feeling of Wrestling's Kayfabe here, but it doesn't reduce the power of the setting here. Just means you can laugh at the marks :smallyuk:

[plainsfox]

No.
__________________





:smalltongue:


Better than a book with many militaristic, facist, and racist overtones, whose characters exists solely to spout of Heinlein's political viewpoints.:smallyuk:


I also find it amusing that the man who favors the soldiers wiht micro-nukes complaining about fanwankery. :smallamused:

Do you want to debate the merits or failings of the book or do you want to debate the merits or failings of the MI vs. the Space Marines?

If you want to debate the merits of the book, then I suggest you set up another thread for it.

As it stands, I have to say Rutee is more right than I am. The Dragonball Z analogy was a bit of exaggeration. I agree that it does resemble professional wrestling more than anything else. Everything about the setting is so ...overblown. Is it natural to wish for Chaos to win?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Do you want to debate the merits or failings of the book or do you want to debate the merits or failings of the MI vs. the Space Marines?

If you want to debate the merits of the book, then I suggest you set up another thread for it.


Uh, sorry to sound so petty and childish, but, uh, you started it:


No. I've been....exposed... to WH40k stuff before.


To be threatened by anything, you need to be able to take it seriously. Honestly, nothing in the WH40K Universe can be taken seriously. It seems to be motivated by the Dragonball Z Superhero quotient where the opposing side increases his power a hundred fold when the next Codex comes out. It makes a discussion of the merits of each side a trifle hard, wouldn't you agree?



Well....what are we discussing then? BOOM. ALL source material is gone. All we have left are their respective names. I'll take Mobile Infantry over Space Marine. Mobile Infantry sounds better than Space Marine (Marines, but in SPAAACE!)...and if that's what the argument falls down to, then it's a matter of personal choice.

Now you come and make a reply and say that "But space marines sound cooler! YES! WAY TO GO ME!" and add another kill marker to your threads won signature and we're done here.

EDIT:Also, lol at the use of occupatio and random ad hominem attacks.

[Solo]

Boo-yah! It's not entirely accurate, but the big hat of being right lies on your head, Solo.

Sadly, I wasn't even being serious as I said it.


Uh, sorry to sound so petty and childish, but, uh, you started it:


evidence

EDIT:Also, lol at the use of occupatio and random ad hominem attacks.

This is precisely why I do not take it seriously, because I do not feel threatened by him

[Illiterate Scribe]

Sadly, I wasn't even being serious as I said it.

Meh, the fascism charges don't really hang against it, but the whole thing's worryingly militaristic.


This is precisely why I do not take it seriously, because I do not feel threatened by him

Threatened by him? I thought that we haven't yet reached the stage of an internet argument where we start telling each other that we're karate/swordfighting masters, and that I could certainly take anyone of you in a duel.

[Solo]

Threatened by him? I thought that we haven't yet reached the stage of an internet argument where we start telling each other that we're karate/swordfighting masters, and that I could certainly take anyone of you in a duel.

For the record, IS, I have a Ph.D in Kicking Your Ass.

[Illiterate Scribe]

For the record, IS, I have a Ph.D in Kicking Your Ass.

Oh yeah? I have a Regius Professorship of INTERNET HATE MACHINE.

Whatcher' lookin' at, Solo? Eh? EH?

[Solo]

You're so vain
You probably think I'm looking at you
You're so vain
You probably think I'm looking at you

[Illiterate Scribe]

You're so vain
You probably think I'm looking at you
You're so vain
You probably think I'm looking at you

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/b/bf/NO_U.jpg

Anyhow, what's tha AA capability of the MI?

[Eita]

Oh yeah? I have a Regius Professorship of INTERNET HATE MACHINE.

Whatcher' lookin' at, Solo? Eh? EH?

I'm interning there on Sunday!

Also, the MI doesn't have AA capabilities save for their own guns.

[Destro_Yersul]

I still favour drop pods.

Also, I am willing to provide arguments to the effect that nids are significantly nastier than bugs, and Space Marines, especially the UltraSmurfs, fight those a lot.

[Storm Bringer]

I still favour drop pods.


I Don't. I prefer Rhinos and Thunderhawks. You can't trade the stratgic mobility of the pods agianst the operational/tactical mobility of those, not against the MI. sure, you may start close, but you're not able to keep up with them, and they won't hesitate to back off and bring out the long range guns.



Is it natural to wish for Chaos to win?

let's see:
Imperium:
Uncaring, brutal, willing to killing billions at a whim, stupid leadership, and unrewarding in this life or the next

Chaos: Gives you cool powers, lets you live forever, cool leadership, and lets you lord it over those below you.

I Know which side I'd join.

[Dervag]

Better than a book with many militaristic, facist, and racist overtones, whose characters exists solely to spout of Heinlein's political viewpoints.:smallyuk:I'm going to assume that you are joking. I had to think before making this assumption, because I've met any number of people who honestly believe that (often people who haven't even read the book, or worse yet haven't read the book but have watched that godawful movie).


I also find it amusing that the man who favors the soldiers wiht micro-nukes complaining about fanwankery. :smallamused:Given the actual purpose for which Mobile Infantry units are equipped and trained, giving them truly absurd levels of individual firepower makes sense in setting. Giving an MI platoon squad-level subcritical nuclear warheads makes as much sense as giving a Space Marine an automatic missile launcher. These guys are supposed to be able to do an enormous amount of damage to the enemy even in small units. Starship Troopers begins with a battle where a platoon of MI get spacedropped into an enemy city with the goal of destroying as much of the city's industrial and military targets as possible.

Any unit capable of doing 'strategic bombing' style missions when operating in platoon strength will have to have a level of individual firepower that is truly absurd by modern standards.

Plus, thinking the guy with a tactical nuclear warhead would probably win in a fight is, to my way of thinking, not fanwankery. It's common sense.


Meh, the fascism charges don't really hang against it, but the whole thing's worryingly militaristic.Could you define "militaristic" please?


Also, the MI doesn't have AA capabilities save for their own guns.As far as I know, you're right. They might have some kind of shoulder-launched AA missiles or something that didn't happen to get mentioned in the book (because our viewpoint character never needed to fire one), but I doubt it. I think Heinlein limited the MI's weapons to stuff he could have easily foreseen based on his own knowledge of military technology, which pretty much stopped with World War Two. So he might simply not have thought about guided AA missiles when 'designing' their weapons load out. And any effective AA system other than something like a Stinger would be way too heavy for even MI to carry.


I still favour drop pods.

Also, I am willing to provide arguments to the effect that nids are significantly nastier than bugs, and Space Marines, especially the UltraSmurfs, fight those a lot.I'm not saying it isn't, because there's a good chance that it is... But is this true even when we take into account the fact that book bugs use beam weapons and stuff rather than just trying to swarm mindlessly towards the enemy and eat them?

Bug warriors from the book fight like intelligent soldiers, not like mindless animals.

[Malachite]

So, you're pitting troops with roughly the same strength hand weapons and armour against each other.

1 vs 1:

Marines take the agility prize, MI take the ground speed/mobility due to jump pack.
The Marine is more willing to die to win - may give him the edge, or may make him take more foolish risks. Given we're talking Ultramarines though, whose Primarch wrote the Codex Astartes, I think they'll be fairly good individual tacticians too.

Basically, it'll depend on the terrain. Open and the MI wins, city and the Marine quite possibly brutalises him in close combat.

Taking everything into account though:

MI are the force. They have no additional support except more of them. Space Marines have all sorts of extra equipment, allowing them to specialise. Need to hold a city? Dreadnoughts, Siege tanks, Whirlwind artillery etc. are order of the day.
More open terrain? Rhinos and Land Raiders give you additional manoeuvrability and firepower, while Thunderhawks give you great relocation.

Also, Marines don't need sleep. Whereas MI will only have up to 2/3 of their number fighting at any one time, the SM get the full force all the time.

Finally, Terminators. These things are walking death. Quite simply, any MI that try to engage them will die, micro-nuke or not. As someone pointed out, the suits are built to withstand plasma reactor temperatures. Add to that they can be relocated instantly via teleportation, and they turn into an even more powerful weapon.

By means of superior support and additional kit, I believe the Marines win, though at horrific cost. Micro-nukes are impressive weapons, but you're only going to be able to take out a squad at maximum with each one. It just doesn't make back the numbers, I don't think.
MI may trump Tactical Marines, but a chapter isn't just Tactical Marines.




Personally though, I like the USCMC. They'd get their asses handed to them, but there's something cool about them. :smalltongue:

[SAMAS]

Imperium:
Uncaring, brutal, willing to killing billions at a whim, stupid leadership, and unrewarding in this life or the next

Chaos: Gives you cool powers, lets you live forever, cool leadership, and lets you lord it over those below you.

I Know which side I'd join.

Don't forget the insanity.

[Storm Bringer]

Don't forget the insanity.

Sanity is for the weak.

sorry, had to quote it.

but what about the madness? it's equal on both sides. One side is just more open about it.:smallbiggrin:


Could you define "militaristic" please?


Thier are those who read the book as basically saying "being in an army is a positive influence on a person and that everyone should join up and serve a term". In short, they feel the book is promoting a militaristic stance. Having not read the book in years, I can't comment on how true these accusations are.

[Alex Knight]

Actually, the book promotes service to the community, not simply the military.

[Solo]

I'm going to assume that you are joking. I had to think before making this assumption, because I've met any number of people who honestly believe that (often people who haven't even read the book, or worse yet haven't read the book but have watched that godawful movie).

Your perceptions are correct.

Had to give him something in return for that stuff he was spouting, after all.


let's see:
Imperium:
Uncaring, brutal, willing to killing billions at a whim, stupid leadership, and unrewarding in this life or the next

Chaos: Gives you cool powers, lets you live forever, cool leadership, and lets you lord it over those below you.

I Know which side I'd join.

Imperium: Mankind's best hope for survival in a cold and uncaring future.

Chaos: Will often torture, rape, pillage, murder and commit all sorts of sadistic and depraved acts.

Perfectly willing to carry them out on their allies and their enemies.



Hmm.... well, if you're the type to go for murder, sadism, rape, and etc, I suppose Chaos is the best choice,

[Destro_Yersul]

I'm not saying it isn't, because there's a good chance that it is... But is this true even when we take into account the fact that book bugs use beam weapons and stuff rather than just trying to swarm mindlessly towards the enemy and eat them?

Bug warriors from the book fight like intelligent soldiers, not like mindless animals.

Nids only fight like Mindless Animals when seperated from Synapse creatures. When there is a synapse creature on the field of battle they can and do use tactics. Swarming just happens to be a very valid tactic for them. The larger nids, and some of the smaller ones, have guns as well. They're not technological guns, because they fire stuff like highly corrosive acid and swarms of beetles that burrow under skin and through armour to devour vital organs. But they are guns nonetheless.

[Belteshazzar]

May I point out that the soldier bugs used some kind of lazers when fighting the MI. They tended to actually use technology unlike most insectile aliens in fiction.

[Destro_Yersul]

Nids don't need technology. Their natural weapons are better.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Space Marines would win. Reason: armor & dreadnoughts.

[Thangorodrim]

Space Marines would win. Reason: armor & dreadnoughts.

Against nuke strikes ?

I think a much better selection of reasons would include plenty of guided missiles and other AA capable weapons, supersonic gunship support in combination with their armour.

Slow arse walkers like Dreadnaughts are low on the list!

[Storm Bringer]

Against nuke strikes ?

I think a much better selection of reasons would include plenty of guided missiles and other AA capable weapons, supersonic gunship support in combination with their armour.


I'd rate the Thunderhawks as being the most important elements in a fight against the MI in open terrain, simply for the mobility they offer. they orbital craft, which means, assuming about 10 mins to reach orbit and another 10 to land again, they can get between any two points on an earth sized planet, with thier armour as well, in just over an hour at most.

MI can't match that, not once thier planetside. the Marines can concentrate much more force at any given point than the MI can, giving massive offensive advantages and possibly defensive ones (depends how long the fights go on.


I'd also be intrested in how the MI deal with land speeders. If, as stated, they are not normally equipped with dedicated AA systems, then Hit and run passes by speeders may well be very effective. It really depends on how good the MI's scanners are at tracking high speed targets moving though cover.

[Prophaniti]

I realise this is entirely a repeat of opinions already expressed on this thread, but my view:

As stated in the OP, this is a SM Chapter we're working with, wich includes many varieties of tanks, special weapons, command squads, Librarians, those hover vehicles who's name escapes me right now...

I'm gonna have to vote for the SM Chapter. MI is pretty awesome but don't have as much access to heavier support elements. Good vs thread, though.

And yes, I have read the book... more than eight years ago now... man, I should read it again.

[Zenos]

I realise this is entirely a repeat of opinions already expressed on this thread, but my view:

As stated in the OP, this is a SM Chapter we're working with, wich includes many varieties of tanks, special weapons, command squads, Librarians, those hover vehicles who's name escapes me right now...

I'm gonna have to vote for the SM Chapter. MI is pretty awesome but don't have as much access to heavier support elements. Good vs thread, though.

And yes, I have read the book... more than eight years ago now... man, I should read it again.

Land Speeders aren't they? I might be wrong, but...