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Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-07, 07:47 AM
Being a fan of the SW EU, especially the New Jedi Order and Legacy series, I thought I'd take a look into the Star Wars RPG and the SW: Saga. I was quite disappointed by the mechanics. Maybe I'm more used to the more gritty and (much) more force-heavy EU but I thought the mechanics were really off the mark especially in the following points:

1) Hit points and wound points.
The set defence and d20 based attack where half the attacks hit but the characters can survive a dozen direct blaster hits is bad. Most people shouldn't survive more than a shot or two-let alone keep fighting, certainly not hits by lightsabers or explosives. The most blaster hits anyone has survived in the novels (to my knowledge anyway) is five direct hits. Similarly, even master-level combatants are incapacitated after a couple of lightsaber wounds. In addition, no fight has happened where the combatants take turns actually hitting eachother until someone dies from the wounds. The combat focuses on not being hit by the enemy rather than surviving enemy blows and it is rarely random. An experienced jedi knight could deflect blaster bolts from two dozen enemies for many "rounds" without being hit and two masters could duel with lightsabers for minutes without any blow landing at all.
I think the HP and WP system doesn't work-especially based on the d20 attack rules. Too random, not good scaling, characters surviving unrealistically high amounts of damage.


2) Characters and Balance.
In the system, the classes are fairly balanced. OK, jedi would be about twice as powerful as non force-users in combat but that's it. The problem here is that balance between non Force-users and Force-users, let alone droids and Force-users, is totally against the flavor of the entire series. An 18 year old jedi could take on a dozen experienced soldiers, easy. Human soldiers are vastly superior to droids, given equipment of similar quality. Wanting to give many options to players is good. Making all the options balanced, when the setting, backstory and flavor say they are not is not a good idea. Flavor-wise, making soldiers, droids and force-users just as capable in fights is not as good. Since the PCs are supposed to be heroes-and droids and non force-users rarely are-one would expect the game to either eschew non force-related classes or make the force available, to some extent, to all characters and make up for the lack of force powers with other abilities. E.g. soldiers and similar classes could focus on heavy ranged weaponry, explosives, special weapons (e.g. flamethrowers and missiles), heavy armor, electronic surveillance gear and the like. Scoundrels and similar classes could focus heavily on noncombat skills, stealth and high-power rifles.


3) The Force
The system's greatest failure, IMHO. Force Powers based on a skill system already get the randomness problem. The problems magnify if you put in the saving throw system-especially the flavor problems. In the setting, it really doesn't matter how experienced or strong-willed an opponent is. He's just as succeptible to any telekinetic or energy applications of the force as a toddler or a droid unless he, too, uses the Force to defend himself. That's what makes the Force so powerful-barring mind affecting powers, the Force works unless blocked. And the Force is anything but random-it actually guides people to specific (though unlikely) results. Strapping on a saving throw and skill-based system doesn't reflect how the Force works at all.
Another mechanic that is both flawed and opposes the flavor, is the vitality cost of force powers and Dark Side corruption. Flavor-wise, the only instance where using the Force actually harms you is when you use more Force energy than you can normally handle. Using more energy than you can handle not only harms you but leads to hunger for power and the Dark Side. On the other hand, using Dark Side Force powers doesn't physically harm you. There are instances where characters use the Dark Side for extended periods of time (years) without physical distortion and others where characters use the Light Side more than they can handle and they suffer from cellular degeneration, premature aging, death-like features and similar distortion within only a few minutes.
One more problem with force-powers, deriving from the skill-based system, is lack of variety and inconsistencies. There are literally hundreds of ways to employ the force. The system offers about twenty. In addition, powers that are supposed to be related are not. E.g. Force Strike, Move Object and Force Grip are practically applications of the same skill-telekinetic manipulation of objects through the force. It doesn't make sense for someone to be very capable in moving objects but not being able to telekinetically strike an opponent or crush him-as long as you've learned the technique, you should be equally capable to do all three.
Finally, the scope of force powers is, in the game, very limited. In the novels and movies it is not. E.g. Move Object can only affect objects within 4 meters of you. In the books there are instances of experienced jedi knights using Move Object hundreds of meters or even miles away (though the effectiveness is limited). Another example is multi-targetting. There are instances of the Force being used to lift, hold or push backwards dozens of people at once. And ofcourse, the strength of force-powers is extremely limited in the game as well. In the EU we see force-users creating lightning storms with Force-Lightning that certainly don't deal only 3d6 damage, tearing down medium-sized buildings with a single application of Move Object, crushing medium vehicles or small craft with Force Grip, making entire ships invisible with Illusions and Shadows or affecting the emotions of thousands of troops during a battle, bolstering morale or crushing opposition with fear.
Simply put, the game reflects the Force about as well as a 5th level acolyte would reflect the abilities of Elminster.

Rad
2008-02-07, 08:12 AM
I had those exact doubts when I heard about SW RPG. It looks like what works for novels does not necessarily work for gaming as well... :smallfrown:

Premier
2008-02-07, 09:55 AM
Belial, I'd like to summarise your long post in a single sentence:

"I've never heard of the D6 Star Wars system by West End Games."
:smallsmile:

It's the answer to your problems:

- The best way to survive a fight is not to get hit. A single lucky damage roll and/or a single botched roll for damage resistance can make you unconscious or dying, and there isn't that much in the way of armour available. Also, even if you only sustain lesser wounds, two of those will knock you out.

- Jedi can become close-combat death machines if they put enough character points in lightsabre skills and force powers (the latter increase damage, they destroy other melee weapons and hurt people stupid enough to attack a Jedi with bare hands, and can parry blaster bolts). Of course, other characters, not having lightsabre skills or force powers, will be putting THEIR character points into others stuff, possibly ranged weapons, demolitions etc. etc., so they will be better than Jedi in those specific areas.

- Force... errm, I'm too lazy to type it out, but it addresses many of your problems.


So, go West End Games, young man!

serow
2008-02-07, 10:38 AM
Maybe I'm more used to the more gritty and (much) more force-heavy EU...You could be right. IIRC part of the rule design was to make the game flow more like the way it was presented in the 6 movies rather than any EU-based novel.

The J Pizzel
2008-02-07, 10:51 AM
Being a strong supporter of SW:SAGA i'll have to defend it. I simply love the new game. The condition track is one of my favorite things they've added. Sure one blaster can't kill you, but it can certainly move you down the condition track in a big hurry.

Talents are pretty much the bread and butter of the new game.

And the Force powers aren't against saving throws. Their against your Defences. And I think there represented nicely. Move object is against your Reflex Defense...that makes sence. Force Stun is against your Fort Defense...that makes sense too. And Mind Trick is against your Will Defense...don't see a problem here.

I'm really not good at debating mechanics...but I think the game does a great job of making it fun and easy to play and represents the movies way more than D20 did. Also, the game is insanely more balanced. Jedi don't run around making everyone else look like pansies. My bothan scoundrel/soldier is actually on par with the two jedi in our group. I love it.

jP

warmachine
2008-02-07, 10:51 AM
Concerning number 1, you can always steal the GURPS cinematic rule. Hit points are low but a character, when hit and damaged, can negate this by losing 1 Fatigue Point and his next turn. This represents ducking. Imperial Stormtroopers, of course, cannot duck because it's their job to be highly trained, heavily equipped targets. The PCs only bother ducking the blaster shots but accumulate scratches from shrapnel. Makes more sense than absorbing a light sabre hit.

Sounds like the designers don't understand that PC balance is essential for a fun game. I'd go with the d6 Star Wars.

The J Pizzel
2008-02-07, 10:59 AM
Sounds like the designers don't understand that PC balance is essential for a fun game. I'd go with the d6 Star Wars.


The game is extremely balanced. Weapon damage scales with character level so every level 10 character is doing at least weapon damage + 5 + misc. bonuses. Defenses scale with level so unless you've invested serious talents into your armor...all level 10's have at least +10 to all defenses + ability mods + plus class bonus, etc. The game is more balanced than any other game I've played. Everyone uses the condition track so widdling down thier HP at high levels isn't really the point. It's getting them down the cond track so they'll go unconsious that way. Jedi aren't overpowered, Nobles are underpowerd. Now, a noble is the party buffer and is actually useful with thier talents. Sorry, can't agree with this game being "un"balanced. IMO, it completely fixed SW for me and my gang.

JP

TheGreatJabu
2008-02-07, 11:08 AM
I'm sorry for your plight and all, but you've got to keep in mind the important issue of "it's a game". The designers HAVE to make classes balanced, or it's no fun for non-Jedi. Concerns regarding using the Force fall under this category, as well. If the systems worked the way they "should" in the Expanded Universe material, they'd have to change the name of the game to "Force Users and Friends!"

Saga addresses some of your complaints already, however. Force Powers no longer "cost" you anything to activate; you simply can use them a set amount of times per encounter based on how you built your character. A single skill check (Use the Force) determines their potency (which is now scalable). Force Techniques learned in Jedi Knight/Sith Apprentice classes give you the ability to target multiple foes with "single target" powers, as well as extending range and other benefits.

And to be honest, I don't put a ton of stock into the Expanded Universe. It's notorious for power-creeping, with every new hero and villain required to have an even more jaw-dropping ability than his or her predecessors. I'll use the movies as my frame of reference for how the Force works, personally.

The J Pizzel
2008-02-07, 11:27 AM
Ok, I went and re-read your post and now I'm going to get nit-picky. First off, most of what you complained about was from SW D20 not SAGA. And the few times you complained about SAGA, I felt they were not very reflective of the game. Here's my polite rebuttle: (and pleae remember, EU was not considered in the making of this game at all. This is stated several times by the staff, they want it reflective of the movies)



The combat focuses on not being hit by the enemy rather than surviving enemy blows and it is rarely random. An experienced jedi knight could deflect blaster bolts from two dozen enemies for many "rounds" without being hit and two masters could duel with lightsabers for minutes without any blow landing at all.

This is very reflective in SAGA. Three talents: Deflect, Redirect, and Block. These three talents can make a singe lightsaber duel last forever without either lightsaber ever landing a single blow...very reflective of the two duels at the end of episode 3.



In the system, the classes are fairly balanced. OK, jedi would be about twice as powerful as non force-users in combat but that's it. The problem here is that balance between non Force-users and Force-users, let alone droids and Force-users, is totally against the flavor of the entire series. An 18 year old jedi could take on a dozen experienced soldiers, easy. Human soldiers are vastly superior to droids, given equipment of similar quality. Wanting to give many options to players is good. Making all the options balanced, when the setting, backstory and flavor say they are not is not a good idea. Flavor-wise, making soldiers, droids and force-users just as capable in fights is not as good. Since the PCs are supposed to be heroes-and droids and non force-users rarely are-one would expect the game to either eschew non force-related classes or make the force available, to some extent, to all characters and make up for the lack of force powers with other abilities. E.g. soldiers and similar classes could focus on heavy ranged weaponry, explosives, special weapons (e.g. flamethrowers and missiles), heavy armor, electronic surveillance gear and the like. Scoundrels and similar classes could focus heavily on noncombat skills, stealth and high-power rifles.

First off, what level is the 18 year old jedi. In an RPG, age means nothing...level means everything. A jedi should not be 'UBER' powerful over the other players in combat...if that were the case, everyone would play one. Jedi should have cool, unique powers that separate them from everyone else, but not so better than everyone else. You said the game should make up for this by offering weapon focusing...through talents and feats, any player can become extremely effective with thier chosen weapon. I've build a soldier who uses a Heavey Blaster Rifle (her name is Asienga, hehe) and does more damage than the jedi. I've built a Bothan Scoundrel/Gunslinger who can out damage nearly everyone because he's specialized in pistols.

Next, force powers are open to everyone who's willing to invest their resourced in it. Which makes perfectly good sense if your not a jedi already.





The system's greatest failure, IMHO. Force Powers based on a skill system already get the randomness problem. The problems magnify if you put in the saving throw system-especially the flavor problems. In the setting, it really doesn't matter how experienced or strong-willed an opponent is.

The force has a strong impression on the weak minded. No, the force does not work equally on all people. A strong willed person is not as susceptible to a mind trick as everyone else. A more agile person could easily dodge the results of lightning storm by jumping behind some crates.

In SAGA, you have one skill: Use the Force. You train it, you use it. The more you have in it, the better your force powers are. It's pretty simple.
You roll it agaisnt their relative defenses (not saving throws) and if your not high enough, you fail. Work pretty nice to me.



One more problem with force-powers, deriving from the skill-based system, is lack of variety and inconsistencies. There are literally hundreds of ways to employ the force. The system offers about twenty.

They ran out of room, The Force Unleashed comes out in about 4 months.


In addition, powers that are supposed to be related are not. E.g. Force Strike, Move Object and Force Grip are practically applications of the same skill-telekinetic manipulation of objects through the force. It doesn't make sense for someone to be very capable in moving objects but not being able to telekinetically strike an opponent or crush him-as long as you've learned the technique, you should be equally capable to do all three.

Force Strike has nothing to do with telekinetics. It's using the Force to guide your next attack. It's rolling a use the force check and adding more damage based on your roll, nothing at all to do with tk.



Finally, the scope of force powers is, in the game, very limited. In the novels and movies it is not. E.g. Move Object can only affect objects within 4 meters of you. In the books there are instances of experienced jedi knights using Move Object hundreds of meters or even miles away (though the effectiveness is limited). Another example is multi-targetting. There are instances of the Force being used to lift, hold or push backwards dozens of people at once. And ofcourse, the strength of force-powers is extremely limited in the game as well. In the EU we see force-users creating lightning storms with Force-Lightning that certainly don't deal only 3d6 damage, tearing down medium-sized buildings with a single application of Move Object, crushing medium vehicles or small craft with Force Grip, making entire ships invisible with Illusions and Shadows or affecting the emotions of thousands of troops during a battle, bolstering morale or crushing opposition with fear.


Damn, I'm tired of typing. Ok, most of what you said about powers not being powerful enough is easily taken care of my A-using force points, B-investing talents, C-PrCing into Jedi Knight and Jedi Master.

Most of the stuff I've read that you complained about are d20 I think and not SAGA. Personally, I think you haven't played SAGA that much, becuase most of what your complaing about is quite opposite of what SAGA has in the game.

jp

Jerthanis
2008-02-07, 04:10 PM
Being a fan of the SW EU, especially the New Jedi Order and Legacy series, I thought I'd take a look into the Star Wars RPG and the SW: Saga. I was quite disappointed by the mechanics. Maybe I'm more used to the more gritty and (much) more force-heavy EU but I thought the mechanics were really off the mark especially in the following points:

1) Hit points and wound points.
The set defence and d20 based attack where half the attacks hit but the characters can survive a dozen direct blaster hits is bad. Most people shouldn't survive more than a shot or two-let alone keep fighting, certainly not hits by lightsabers or explosives.

Remember, HP is largely abstract in D&D, and it's more so in Star Wars RPGs. If I were a Scoundrel sneaking up on some Stormtroopers, and they hear me and unleash a torrent of blasterfire, hitting me twice before I duck back behind cover, that's not necessarily me taking two blaster bolts to the chest and shrugging them off, but suffering near misses or grazes that shake my resolve and use up my luck. A shot that reduces me to 0 HP would be the "smoking hole in chest" blaster shot. A lot of this is down to description. I rule that anything under your damage threshold isn't any more than surface level scratches.



2) Characters and Balance.
In the system, the classes are fairly balanced. OK, jedi would be about twice as powerful as non force-users in combat but that's it. The problem here is that balance between non Force-users and Force-users, let alone droids and Force-users, is totally against the flavor of the entire series. An 18 year old jedi could take on a dozen experienced soldiers, easy. Human soldiers are vastly superior to droids, given equipment of similar quality. Wanting to give many options to players is good. Making all the options balanced, when the setting, backstory and flavor say they are not is not a good idea. Flavor-wise, making soldiers, droids and force-users just as capable in fights is not as good. Since the PCs are supposed to be heroes-and droids and non force-users rarely are-one would expect the game to either eschew non force-related classes or make the force available, to some extent, to all characters and make up for the lack of force powers with other abilities. E.g. soldiers and similar classes could focus on heavy ranged weaponry, explosives, special weapons (e.g. flamethrowers and missiles), heavy armor, electronic surveillance gear and the like. Scoundrels and similar classes could focus heavily on noncombat skills, stealth and high-power rifles.

This is practically the exact description of Saga edition, first of all. The Force is available to all characters for one thing, and Jedi are seriously lacking in skills that other classes make up for very well. However, I would argue against your basic premise that the Force automatically makes Jedi better warriors than anything else in the galaxy, no matter what, and I'm going to argue this from a canonical standpoint. Jango Fett fought Obi-Wan, the quintessential master of Soresu to a standstill, and killed several Jedi in the Arena fight in Episode 2, and he isn't a Jedi. General Grevious was a notoriously prolific Jedi killer, and while he used Lightsabers, it wasn't the Force that gave him those victories (he had to get his first lightsaber from somewhere). The better Yuuzhan Vong warriors are capable of taking Jedi under the right circumstances, and by definition they are not Jedi. Clone Troops wiped out the Jedi in the Jedi temple, albeit with Vader's help. In the Kotor games there is mention of elite squads of soldiers dedicated to killing Jedi, and who succeeded regularly. Magna-guard droids were known to be veterans of skirmishes with Jedi, and they're just droids. So basically... the Force is a powerful ally, but it doesn't make anyone who wields it invincible.

What you're thinking of is not that Jedi are more powerful than non-Jedi, but you're thinking about high level Jedi versus rank-and-file troops. Any Jedi you'll name will probably be 9th+ level, and the most elite rank-and-file troop might be CL 3 if they are seriously elite soldiers. The reason Jedi and the Soldier Class are approximately equal in fighting ability is that a person who is level 10 tough will be tough enough to do level 10 things, whether they're a Force user or not. The fact that so much of the EU focuses on Jedi muddies this to make it seem like only Jedi can be impressive, but no, plenty of people can be heroic without the Force. You should see the movies, they're pretty good.



3) The Force
The system's greatest failure, IMHO. Force Powers based on a skill system already get the randomness problem. The problems magnify if you put in the saving throw system-especially the flavor problems. In the setting, it really doesn't matter how experienced or strong-willed an opponent is. He's just as succeptible to any telekinetic or energy applications of the force as a toddler or a droid unless he, too, uses the Force to defend himself. That's what makes the Force so powerful-barring mind affecting powers, the Force works unless blocked. And the Force is anything but random-it actually guides people to specific (though unlikely) results. Strapping on a saving throw and skill-based system doesn't reflect how the Force works at all.
Another mechanic that is both flawed and opposes the flavor, is the vitality cost of force powers and Dark Side corruption. Flavor-wise, the only instance where using the Force actually harms you is when you use more Force energy than you can normally handle. Using more energy than you can handle not only harms you but leads to hunger for power and the Dark Side. On the other hand, using Dark Side Force powers doesn't physically harm you. There are instances where characters use the Dark Side for extended periods of time (years) without physical distortion and others where characters use the Light Side more than they can handle and they suffer from cellular degeneration, premature aging, death-like features and similar distortion within only a few minutes.

This isn't as much a problem with Saga edition, though you might have your own issues with that system. It's all based on the "Use the Force" skill, which gives you the statistical randomness of a d20, but the stability of a standard 1/2 your level + charisma + other to all the force powers you know. Also, it doesn't take HP to use your powers, though you need to use Force Points, actions, or rest a minute to regain used powers. I don't believe I've seen anything about cellular degeneration or aging affects of powers in Saga. However, it still differentiates the Force Push style "wave of energy knocking everyone in a cone back" from Move Object, which is also differentiated from Force Grip (choke). I don't have too much of a problem with this, because if you boil it down far enough, Jedi really only have two powers, Telekinetic power and enhanced senses.

wormwood
2008-02-07, 04:36 PM
I don't have too much of a problem with this, because if you boil it down far enough, Jedi really only have two powers, Telekinetic power and enhanced senses.

Make that 3 powers. You left out the best one.

"These are not the droids you are looking for."

Jerthanis
2008-02-07, 08:05 PM
Make that 3 powers. You left out the best one.

"These are not the droids you are looking for."

Right, I didn't forget about that one at all, I swear.

Also, I guess sometimes they have healing powers, or at the very least control over their own vital functions, and can sometimes give themselves some sort of super-strength and super-speed, though the application of these powers are uneven at best.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-07, 08:51 PM
I thought Star Wars d20 already had a Vitality/Wound points system, where generic hits weren't "hits", but merely removed some of the character's luck and energy as they dodged, represented by Vitality Points. Critical hits, or hits to characters with no Vitality Points, go directly to the target's Wound Points and probably kill or disable them in one blow.

That always made much more sense to me than D&D hit points, and fit with how combat in Star Wars works; a lot of blocks and near misses followed by a final, lucky, finishing strike or shot.

Jack Zander
2008-02-07, 11:38 PM
Has the OP even ever played SWSE? From the looks of his post, I'd say no.

Divine Storm
2008-02-08, 05:23 PM
I think the problem that we're all avoiding here is that this is a person who is really into the New Jedi Order.

Ok so that was just low. My apologies.

But seriously. I hate me some Yuuzhan Vong. And someone tell Salvatore to kill off some of his own characters before he starts offing Star Wars legends.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-08, 05:36 PM
He does. All the time. Just not in his Drizzt novels because WotC publishing won't let him (although after some initial shakiness, post-lame-ass-resurrection Wulfgar actually improved a lot.)

Now, I don't like NJO in general, but I will defend Chewie's death.