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RedShift zX
2008-02-07, 12:57 PM
Im fairly new to casters and D&D in general, so i apologize for any noobish questions.


Now at high and epic levels...Is eliminating an entire spell slot really worth the abilities it gives really worth it? Arcane Fire, Mastery of Counterspelling, and Mastery of Elements all sound like some pretty useful/powerful stuff...But Eliminating an entire spell slot for it? I mean unless you've got like a intelligence score of 35 and can cast up to level 18 spells or something, and just eliminate the really high spell slots (using meta'd normal spells instead) it seems like giving up an ENTIRE spell slot really robs you of allot of versatility.

Thoughts?

Saph
2008-02-07, 01:07 PM
Maybe. It's one of those cases where you have to judge it case-by-case.

If you frequently use touch attacks then Arcane Reach makes the class worth it all by itself. Spell Power and Mastery of Shaping are worth 5th- and 6th- level spell slots, too. However, most of the other high arcana are mediocre.

If you go into Archmage at the earliest possible level (14) then yes, there's a good chance that the loss of high-level spell slots will actually make you weaker. Archmage abilities are really much more helpful later on, when you've got 8th- and 9th-level spells and those missing 6th- and 7th-level slots don't hurt so much.

Ironically, Archmage is actually much better for a Sorcerer than a Wizard. The extra flexibility is great for Sorcerers, and they've got so many spell slots they don't care at all about losing two or three. Pity it's so annoying for them to qualify.

- Saph

Douglas
2008-02-07, 01:08 PM
You missed the two best abilities: Mastery of Shaping (Fireball a raging melee without hitting your allies) and Arcane Reach (Irresistible Dance at 30'). Mastery of Elements is nice if you're a blaster type, Mastery of Counterspelling is good if you're specialized in counterspelling, Arcane Fire is worthless - if you need to do damage, just cast a spell with that slot instead, you'll do more damage.

Yes, permanently giving up a spell slot is a non-trivial cost, but when it's one of twenty or so slots of that level or higher it's not that big a deal. Even at levels where the slot sacrificed is one of your top 10, the benefits are enough to make up for it. If you need to give one of your top 3-5 slots for the ability, you should probably wait another level or two unless it's spectacularly useful to you.

Oh, and even with a million intelligence you don't get 18th level spell slots until you're epic level and have taken Improved Spell Capacity 9 times. Without Improved Spell Capacity, which can only be taken at character level 21 or higher, you don't get spell slots higher than 9th level, for metamagic or otherwise.

Frosty
2008-02-07, 01:12 PM
I wonder if a Beguiler can go into Archmage and blast with Arcane fire.

valadil
2008-02-07, 01:12 PM
It's worthwhile for some high arcana, but not all. Arcane Fire is especially weak. Spell Power is rather good. Shaping, elements, and reach are good depending one the sorts of spells you cast. I don't like counterspelling, as I'd rather force a concentration check with damage than hope dispel magic works. Haven't made up my mind on the spell like ability yet - seems good on paper, but it hasn't proven useful in real game.

Basically you need to figure out which high arcana you want, and take that many levels in archmage. Also I like to take it at higher levels. At level 13 your level 7 slot is a huge deal. At 20 7s just aren't that impressive.

Keep in mind that a feat can buy a spell slot. Is a high arcana worth a feat to you? Master of shaping is very similar to sculpt spell, but doesn't metamagic up the cost, so I'd argue that it's better. So you're trading a slot (1 feat) for something better than a different feat. I'd say this is worthwhile, provided you have the area spells to use it with.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-07, 01:41 PM
It's worthwhile for some high arcana, but not all. Arcane Fire is especially weak. Spell Power is rather good. Shaping, elements, and reach are good depending one the sorts of spells you cast. I don't like counterspelling, as I'd rather force a concentration check with damage than hope dispel magic works. Haven't made up my mind on the spell like ability yet - seems good on paper, but it hasn't proven useful in real game.

Basically you need to figure out which high arcana you want, and take that many levels in archmage. Also I like to take it at higher levels. At level 13 your level 7 slot is a huge deal. At 20 7s just aren't that impressive.

Keep in mind that a feat can buy a spell slot. Is a high arcana worth a feat to you? Master of shaping is very similar to sculpt spell, but doesn't metamagic up the cost, so I'd argue that it's better. So you're trading a slot (1 feat) for something better than a different feat. I'd say this is worthwhile, provided you have the area spells to use it with.

Extraordinary spell aim, which has a similar effect to Shaping, is only a feat - it requires a spellcraft check (which you should make since you're maximising that anyway) to use on any spell.

Proven_Paradox
2008-02-07, 01:46 PM
A one level dip for arcane reach is usually as far as I go with it. If I'm going archmage for more than that, I'll probably want to stock up on Pearls of Power to make up for the loss.

Either that or be a sorcerer, as has already been suggested.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-07, 05:47 PM
I wonder if a Beguiler can go into Archmage and blast with Arcane fire.
How many schools of magic does the Beguiler have access to? Archmage requires "knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools." in addition to being able to cast 7th level spells, three different feats, and 15 ranks each in two skills.

The big benefit of Arcane Fire is 5d6 untyped damage, no SR cantrips at 600 feet. Mostly useless if you've got the Reserve feats in play, but it's got it's uses. It also lets you zap doors, locks, or bonds if you get stuck somewhere.

Spell-Like ability is a gold mine for a (non-Sorcerer) who's got a favorite, high-level spell. Spend two spell slots (one 5th, one the level of the spell) to get the spell as a spell-like ability, useable twice per day. So if you use it on a 9th level spell (such as Time Stop) that you use often, you've turned two spell slots (one 5th and one 9th) into two uses of a 9th level spell-like ability (which, as an added bonus, Silences it, Stills it, removes all Focus components, and mostly removes material components, at no extra charge).

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 06:00 PM
How many schools of magic does the Beguiler have access to? Archmage requires "knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools." in addition to being able to cast 7th level spells, three different feats, and 15 ranks each in two skills.

Let's see... Break Enchantment (5th; Abjuration), Dominate Person (5th; Enchantment), Friend to Foe (5th; Illusion), Telepathic Bond (5th; Divination), Sending (5th; Evocation).

Apparently a beguiler can qualify immediately upon gaining access to 7th level spells, provided they have the feats and skills.

kamikasei
2008-02-07, 06:02 PM
How many schools of magic does the Beguiler have access to? Archmage requires "knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools." in addition to being able to cast 7th level spells, three different feats, and 15 ranks each in two skills.

Just checked. Greater dispel magic, true seeing, ethereal jaunt and phase door cover abjuration, divination, transmutation and conjuration in addition to the obvious enchantment and illusion spells at 6th and 7th level. A beguiler will meet the spell prerequisites after 14 levels, by which time keeping Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft maxed (trivial, if not terribly useful) will have met the skill prerequisites and the feats can easily be spent. You don't fall into the class, but you don't have to jump.

Saph
2008-02-07, 06:03 PM
Yup, beguilers qualify (the only school they don't have access to is Necromancy, I think).

The two Spell Focuses wouldn't even hurt them that much, as they could pick Enchantment and Illusion. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) would be a waste, though, and unlike Sorcerers, Beguilers have quite decent class features.

- Saph

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 06:05 PM
Yup, beguilers qualify (the only school they don't have access to is Necromancy, I think).

The two Spell Focuses wouldn't even hurt them that much, as they could pick Enchantment and Illusion. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) would be a waste, though, and unlike Sorcerers, Beguilers have quite decent class features.

- Saph

Yeah, but Arcane Fire and Arcane Reach would be glorious. That's a trade I'd make any day.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-07, 06:40 PM
Yeah, but Arcane Fire and Arcane Reach would be glorious. That's a trade I'd make any day.

Arcane reach does pretty much nothing for Beguilers. Doing spell-level-plus-a-few-d6 damage with Arcane Fire is also pretty much not worth having. Spell Power is... OK, but not as good for them as for wizards. Mastery of Shaping also isn't a big deal. Mastery of Elements is useless. SLA isn't worthwhile. Mastery of Counterspelling would be good if you had a Beguiler with Heighten Spell and Reactive Counterspelling, I suppose.

Person_Man
2008-02-07, 06:47 PM
It's ok in core only games. Otherwise, there are generally other better prestige classes out there. Also, the pre-reqs suck.

Frosty
2008-02-07, 06:55 PM
Yep. I was pretty surprised at how easily Beguilers qualify for Archmage. I wonder if Warmages can qualify without Eccletic learning...

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 07:02 PM
Yep. I was pretty surprised at how easily Beguilers qualify for Archmage. I wonder if Warmages can qualify without Eccletic learning...

They do, once they get 8th level spells.

Idea Man
2008-02-07, 09:09 PM
Sorcerers can actually go one better on the spell-like ability shtick, because they can retrain a spell out for another one as they gain levels. So, you'd have a twice a day ability in addition to your normal spell availability, minus one slot.

marjan
2008-02-07, 09:25 PM
Sorcerers can actually go one better on the spell-like ability shtick, because they can retrain a spell out for another one as they gain levels. So, you'd have a twice a day ability in addition to your normal spell availability, minus one slot.

Yes, but the problem is that best choices for Spell-like ability are your highest level spells (9th lvl if possible) which cannot be swapped normally. Though retraining, if allowed, is solution.

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-08, 07:36 AM
Mastery of Elements beats Energy Substitution, since ES is specific to a single element with each Feat. Too bad it won't qualify you for Elemental Savant(not that that class is too good in 3.5 either). Spell slots/class levels are in slightly greater abundance than Feats.

Frosty
2008-02-08, 12:03 PM
Mastery of elements also allows you to substitute Sonic energy, which the feat doesn't allow.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-08, 12:11 PM
And of course, SLA might be the best ability since Pun-Pun's I Win. Having Greater Teleport (For the paranoid wizard) or Celerity, or Time Stop, is more or less an autowin. And let's not talk about Incantatrix fueled cheese.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-08, 01:57 PM
It's a little Cheesy but Arcane Disciple feat Luck domain makes Miracle an Arcane spell for No experience point Miracles as a spell like ability 2/day with High Arcana really nice for the spell duplication in a game and is clearly not intended for any magic item or enhancing abuse in game with the no experience point stipulation as the High Arcana spell requirement.

nargbop
2008-02-08, 02:32 PM
A single level dip of Archmage is great for one reason : the ability to cast touch spells at a range of thirty feet. If you are a frail wizard who casts save-or-lose spells against enemies and DO NOT want to get into close combat , take a level of Archmage. You little girly hands will thank you.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 02:41 PM
A single level dip of Archmage is great for one reason : the ability to cast touch spells at a range of thirty feet. If you are a frail wizard who casts save-or-lose spells against enemies and DO NOT want to get into close combat , take a level of Archmage. You little girly hands will thank you.
The downside is that, honestly, there are very few touch-range offensive spells you actually want to be casting.

Of course, Irresistible Dance alone makes Arcane Reach into win, and that's not to mention the frozen cheesecake that is Shivering Touch.

RedShift zX
2008-02-08, 02:43 PM
Some interesting stuff here guys..Like i said in my OP, i havent followed casters much. Also, from the looks of it Sorcs' would benefit allot more of Archmage than a wizard does..even if its only a couple levels.

Saph
2008-02-08, 03:50 PM
Some interesting stuff here guys..Like i said in my OP, i havent followed casters much. Also, from the looks of it Sorcs' would benefit allot more of Archmage than a wizard does..even if its only a couple levels.

Sorcerers do well with any amount of Archmage levels, even all five. They could take, say, Arcane Reach, Spell Power, Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, and either Mastery of Counterspelling or something else. That would mean giving up a 5th-, a 6th-, two 7th-, and one 8th-level slot - but they don't care, since high-level Sorcerers have spell slots coming out of their ears. It's flexibility they lack, which Archmage helps with.

The problem is the feats - getting Spell Focus in two schools is mediocre, and Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is flat-out useless. Sorcerers don't get many feats anyway, and taking such poor ones is a handicap, especially since you'd have to start planning them out 6-8 levels in advance.

- Saph

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-08, 04:01 PM
I wouldn't consider the Archmage's prerequisites as even doable, except that if you go Master Specialist you automatically get them. Suddenly much easier. Now if only Sorcerers could specialize. To the homebrew forum!