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Crow
2008-02-07, 01:39 PM
In the core books (PHB, DMG, MM), what options are there for optimizing a Fighter? I'm making a sidekick (other than his animal companion) for a Druid villian which we be coming up in our game. Levels can run anywhere from 12-20, as we're not sure when we're going to meet up with these guys. Total party spellcasting at this time amounts to 1 level of cleric, and 8 levels of bard (please no comments on my group's "unoptimized" builds...believe me I know). All 6 together, they are average ECL 10.

The reason it has to be core-only is because I promised my players I would stick to those three to make things "fair".

Frosty
2008-02-07, 02:23 PM
You can't really optimize a fighter in Core because there just aren't that many feats to pick from. Umm...power attack, a 2handed weapon, and weapon focus stuff?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-07, 02:24 PM
What kind of a Druid do you play?

Caster, beast warrior etc.?

Learnedguy
2008-02-07, 02:29 PM
You can't really optimize a fighter in Core because there just aren't that many feats to pick from. Umm...power attack, a 2handed weapon, and weapon focus stuff?

Yeah, rather you should branch out and learn some archery as well. And oh, pick Quick Draw, it helps a lot if you're planning to switch between fighting styles.

Telonius
2008-02-07, 02:34 PM
How particular is your Druid about his natural ways? Would he disapprove of a fighter who wore metal armor?

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-07, 02:36 PM
You want the size categories (even some umd for enlarge person).

Ogre (or something large)
Exotic Weapon Proficincy Spiked Chain
Combat Expertise*
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Dodge*
Mobility*
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack

Anything extra can go into weapon focus/specilization. Without other feats, power attack is not really worth it.

Tactics: Either Charge and trip, spring attack and trip, use AoOs to trip (one from standing and one from leaving a threatened square), if lots of people around whilrwind trip.

Every trip nets you an extra attack... good stuff.

Make him better by dex increaing items and more size categories.

Deepblue706
2008-02-07, 02:41 PM
Well Crow, I'd say the most effective fighters in core-only games are archers and lancers. You could do both, provided he's high enough level. I'll suggest the following build:

1: Point Blank Shot
1F: Mounted Combat
2F: Power Attack
3: Iron Will
4F: Cleave
6: Ride-By Attack
6F: Rapid Shot
8F: Precise Shot
9: Manyshot
10F: Spirited Charge
12: Far Shot
12F: Mounted Archery

Because a mount grants a fighter such great mobility, he will be able to navigate about a field easily. His archery feats should allow him to strike from out of the range of most players, and if he gets desperate to score a big hit, he can always go for a spirited charge (x3 damage with a lance). He needs high Strength and Dexterity to be successful, as well as a decent Will save to last fairly long against casters. Make sure he has a masterwork composite bow that adds his strength to damage. Consider getting "special" ammunition.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 02:43 PM
Mounted fighter riding a rhinoceros and wielding a lance. x3 on the lance damage, the rhino mount has a pretty vicious powerful charge ability and is less prone to death than a horse, and the fighter can still utilize a bow (probably with Rapid Shot and Far Shot) to pepper foes from afar before closing.

Played this as my character for some time. It's really quite good. If you were to branch out of core, the only thing I'd recommend is giving him the Quickspur's Ally legacy shield. Potentially take Monkey Grip too, for a large lance, because consistent multipliers (ie: charging with Spirited Charge) are the only time that Monkey Grip is actually a solid choice (and yes, I have mathematical proof of this).

Consider replacing the rhino with a giant eagle or giant owl for mobility and swapping over to mostly archery feats too. I'd still retain the lance/Spirited Charge combo for big strikes, though, since a diving charge with lance and Spirited Charge gets a x4 multiplier, rather than a x3.

Aerogoat
2008-02-07, 02:49 PM
The big ones:

Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip
Power Attack

After that, you can expand into this stuff:
Cleave
EWP (Spiked Chain)
Improved Initiative
Blindfight
Improved Disarm
Iron Will
Improved Bull Rush
Quickdraw

After that, you're pretty much out of 'good' feats. Either work up the Weapon Focus chain or take a couple from the Point Blank Shot tree. Maybe invest in Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude, but as a Fighter those aren't that important.
Improved Unarmed Strike might be worth a feat to lead into Improved Grapple (for defensive purposes), but if this is an NPC it probably won't come up.

spiku
2008-02-26, 06:40 PM
use AoOs to trip (one from standing and one from leaving a threatened square)


Attacks of Oppertunity take place BEFORE the action that provokes them. Standing from prone does grant an AoO, but the trip attempt would be wasted as they complete their standing from prone action even if you trip them again.

You should use the standing from prone to disarm them if they have a weapon, or get a power attack whilst they are still considered prone (turn the bonus to hit into more damage).

I might point out also to the thread that Rhinos and Giant birds are terrible ideas for mounts, as you are essentially saying your character will never appear inside dungeons or indoors. This is generally true of any mounted specialist, unless your fighter is a small character of course... There is nowhere a medium mount can't go that your medium (I presume) villian could. To an extent that might include the medium version of the eagle (2HD rather than 1) in the MM.

If your warrior has abysmal intelligence, go mounted combat! The lance provides great burst damage, and if your druid is a transform and melee type chap, he wont object to some ranged attacks distracting casters. If both your intelligence and dexterity are good alongside your strength, definately take spiked chain. However, if your sidekick's stats are good enough for the chain, I doubt you're playing fair ;D

The mobility feat can really wind you up if you have a chain, and hopefully any rogue in your party doesn't have tumble as well; this will lead them ignoring the AoE's and attacking your ogre's crappy racial HD taking up precious class levels.

Spiked chain will REALLY wind up your melee players, especially with good strength and improved disarm, quite likely rendering your average non optimized player quite upset to find themselves without any melee weapon and generally on the floor. Make it an adamantine chain and sunder their shields, armor and weapons to punish them more ;D

The problem an ogre will give you is you lose six levels (4 levels of giant, and 2 levels from Level Adjustment), and -4 int. You want 13 int minimum, and you want at least some dex bonus (currently -2) to provide more chances for AoO. Whilst being large grants you extra reach with the spiked chain; you might consider having someone on hand to cast enlarge person on him. This is of course if you aren't going to just make up his stats.

Medium or larger, with spring attack and improved trip, will make a wonderful little warrior. If you're small, consider mounting him on a cheetah for free trip attacks when you overrun/charge, and the incredibly funny benefit of ride by attack. For some reason I've never seen anyone else do this, but I presume it's common knowledge:

Charge 10 foot at the bandit; ride by attack; run 490 foot further down the road.

Increases your fighters survivability when everything goes wrong ;3 sorry for the long post

Leewei
2008-02-26, 06:43 PM
Give the fighter in question Mounted Combat as a feat, then have him ride the druid wildshaped into a light warhorse.

avr
2008-02-26, 07:20 PM
What animal companion do you have? If it can carry the sidekick fighter the mounted combat shtick works pretty well. A halfling fighter on a dire bat or a medium sized fighter on something bigger (a dire lion or polar bear?) works pretty well.

Deepblue706 has a pretty good list of feats there in core.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-26, 07:21 PM
The best Core fighter combo is multiclassing out of Fighter.

Regardless, the idea of mounting the fighter on the Animal Companion is a very good one.

Worira
2008-02-26, 07:48 PM
If your party is unoptimized, why are you optimizing their enemies?

Yakk
2008-02-26, 07:59 PM
So what do you want the sidekick to feel like?

Is he a sub-boss type villain? A bad guy who fights and runs away? A backup to the main guy?

How "core" is your core: are you a RAW addict who must build everything by the rules?

How flashy do you want the bad guy to be? What emotion should the ally provoke? Do you intend for the players to encounter this bad guy first?

Because, quite honestly, making the mechanics is secondary to making the feel of the villain.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-26, 08:01 PM
...also, a lance-wielding charger is a bad choice to throw against the PCs. It's very deadly, but then it's charged and gets surrounded and beaten to death. You want a more exciting fight, and you want to *not* do so much damage you'll drop a PC in one hit.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-26, 08:06 PM
Half-Fiendish Minotaur Fighter/Barbarian with Weapon focus, Weapon Spec, Power Attack and Improved Sunder wielding an Adamantine Greataxe.

Your PCs will cry. I promise.

spiku
2008-02-27, 07:18 AM
...also, a lance-wielding charger is a bad choice to throw against the PCs. It's very deadly, but then it's charged and gets surrounded and beaten to death. You want a more exciting fight, and you want to *not* do so much damage you'll drop a PC in one hit.

Ride by attack: you wont get surrounded. Though I agree that a crit that could bring you to 50 and a fluffed save insta killing a character might not make them too happy.


Half-Fiendish Minotaur Fighter/Barbarian with Weapon focus, Weapon Spec, Power Attack and Improved Sunder wielding an Adamantine Greataxe.

Your PCs will cry. I promise.

The PCs will laugh as it will have 5 HD less than them at an equal level, owing to +5 Level Adjustment. Avoid level adjustments if you are optimizing.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-27, 08:00 AM
You can't really optimize a fighter in Core because there just aren't that many feats to pick from. Umm...power attack, a 2handed weapon, and weapon focus stuff?
Skip weapon focus, and add combat reflexes, combat expertise, and improved trip, and give him a reach weapon. It's even worse because he can prevent the PCs from reaching the druid while he buffs his minions, becoming even more an annoyance. Get him a potion of enlarge person, and you are set for a combo that'll force the players to think, without having to kill them off the bat.

Iku Rex
2008-02-27, 08:10 AM
...consistent multipliers (ie: charging with Spirited Charge) are the only time that Monkey Grip is actually a solid choice (and yes, I have mathematical proof of this).I'd like to see that proof.

Person_Man
2008-02-27, 09:35 AM
I think Fax has the best idea I've seen so far. Core only Fighters are generally boned. Their best option is two handed Power Attack with a lance, Mounted Combat, Cleave.

Also, Monkey Grip isn't core, so its a moot point.

Talic
2008-02-27, 09:42 AM
Best core fighter? You've already got him designed. He was described as a druid villain.

You want another best core fighter? Make him a cleric henchman.

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-27, 09:49 AM
The PCs will laugh as it will have 5 HD less than them at an equal level, owing to +5 Level Adjustment. Avoid level adjustments if you are optimizing.

Monsters do not work that way! They use the CR system, and do not need to mess with LA.

Fighter ideas: Did you think about Knockdown(MM)? That, a spiked chain, enlarge person/expanion, and combat reflexes gives the druid a fairly powerful defender against defilers/protectors of the wood.

Yakk
2008-02-27, 10:21 AM
Do you want the fight to consist of:



You see a Druid and a Fighter mounted on a Rhino. Roll initiative.

You lost initiative. The fighter charges. Bob takes ... 158 damage. Bob is dead. Cleave attack... ooo, a crit -- 256 damage to Alice. Alice is dead.

The Fighter continues to ride on, and ends his turn 80' away, under cover.

The Druid mumbles something and disappears.

Your turn.

That is the problem with a massive damage build. It doesn't present problems -- it just generates death.

The "control" fighter has the bonus of producing a problem that needs to be solved. And there are solutions: ranged damage, tumble, distracting the fighter, etc. It isn't "roll, dead, roll, dead".

The "roll, dead" mechanic isn't that bad when you are a PC killing one of many NPCs put up against the party -- but when a PC's character dies, that PC just gets to be bored.

...

I'd only use the spiked chain route if the party has never seen it before. Otherwise, go the polearm+armor spikes route. Enlarge person is also a good plan (it can even be perm -- so a successful dispel becomes one of the ways to deal with the problem!)

Iku Rex
2008-02-27, 10:36 AM
Add some fighter levels to an awakend animal.

Frosty
2008-02-27, 11:49 AM
I put a cleric villain behind an enlarged spiked-chain barbarian/fighter bodyguard in a not extremely wide room with ceilings too low to really abuse Fly with. The players had fun, but were cursing me throughout the entire fight.

And throw in some twists. For example the party also wanted to keep the bodyguard alive because she is innocent. They figured out she has been charmed/dominated by the cleric and had to figure out a way to beat the encounter without killing the bodyguard.

And yes, you can do the charging, but make sure your charging is enough to seriously hurt, but never kill a character in one hit short of a crit (which you can say didn't happen due to you being behind a GM scream). And don't make your barbarian a Lion-Totem barbarian.

Deepblue706
2008-02-27, 12:07 PM
I'd like to see that proof.

d8 lance goes to what, 2d6 at the next size? You DO get a -2 to attack for a +2.5 avg damage gain, which is statistically poorer than THW power attack. However, let's say you're a level 20 Fighter.

+20 BAB
+1 High Ground
+2 Charging
+5 Magical Weapon
+1 Focus
+1 GFocus
+8 STR bonus
= +37.
-2 Monkey Gripping
-20 PA

+15. Average roll is thus 25.5.

2d6 (lance) + 5 (magical) + 40 (power attack) + 12 (THW STR bonus)

64, multiply that by three to get 192

1d8 (lance) + 5 (magical) + 40 (power attack) + 12 (THW STR bonus)

61.5, multiply that by three to get 184.5, on average attack roll of 27.5

If you're already doing a full-power attack, it's good. Admittidly, if you actually want to hit, it's likely no good - that is, unless you have Shock Trooper (lose AC instead of attack). Except, as noted, it's all meaningless because this is a Core Only discussion.

Also, I'd like to say those feats I earlier suggested might be better in a different *order*

Iku Rex
2008-02-27, 12:19 PM
Deepblue706, it's +2.5, not 3.5.

And your math makes no sense. All you're "proving" is that more damage at no cost is a good thing. Monkey Grip costs a feat and you suffer a -2 penalty on all your attacks.

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 12:25 PM
The PCs will laugh as it will have 5 HD less than them at an equal level, owing to +5 Level Adjustment. Avoid level adjustments if you are optimizing.

DMs use CR, not LA.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-02-27, 12:59 PM
I'd have to say it would make almost the most sense to have a battle field control fighter (improved trip, disarm, sunder) packing rather then a crazy mounted archer/lancer who will kill things. He could be the guy in charge of keeping the attackers off the druids back while the druid amasses armies of summoned minions and buffs them, then ultimately unleashes waves of death on his opponents (or buffs himself+animal companion, and goes into the fray to mix it up, or stands back summoning strategically (say giant constrictor there, ooh I want a huge air elemental there) nuking, and dropping battlefield control). Basically I think it makes the most sense to give the druid a bodyguard, as given enough time a druid can kill most things. You could also make this fighter basically whatever race you want because if the pair of them see combat a lot, their's a fair likelihood he will have died before, and druids know reincarnate.

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-27, 01:41 PM
A few ideas:

Chuul/Fighter5-13 (depending on needed CR) - very good in watery and swampy areas. A sickening tactic is to grab a PC, transfer them to the paralysis tentacles, then in water, drop them or hold them underwater. If multiclassing is viable, take ranger and or rogue levels. With Rogue you have the cute option of paralysing people, then making sneak attacks on them.

Hill Giant Dire Wereboar/Fighter1-9 - basically, just as listed in the MM. It isn't that powerful, really, but it is pretty funny. Especially if he enters the fight in Dire Boar form, then swiches to Hybrid form and starts batting PCs around. It is a solid fight, with the PCs unoptimized, it may be a good choice.

Phase Spider/Fighter7-15 - If you are up for multiclass, for the love of the Gods do this one and make him a fighter/rogue. Nothing says "hilarious" like a phase spider popping in, biting someone and phasing out...over and over and over...

Then there are always Dragons, depending on terrain, with a # of fighterr levels as appropriate...

Deepblue706
2008-02-27, 02:01 PM
Deepblue706, it's +2.5, not 3.5.

Oh, yes, my mistake.



And your math makes no sense. All you're "proving" is that more damage at no cost is a good thing. Monkey Grip costs a feat and you suffer a -2 penalty on all your attacks.

I didn't actually say I'd do it. I said it's good if you're doing a Full Power attack and are absolutely sure to hit. I was merely attempting to show what "proof" he was referring to, since he never posted again...

Edit: However, if you grab Cavalier and have x5 lance damage on a charge, the damage does change a bit more in favor of the larger lance.

Toliudar
2008-02-27, 03:09 PM
I'd also say that a non-humanoid henchman makes sense for an evil druid. An evil treant with combat reflexes and improved trip? A called-not-summoned earth elemental who grapples? As Yakk said, it's more important to provide an interesting challenge than to have a better chance of killing the party.

Deepblue706
2008-02-27, 04:26 PM
I'd also say that a non-humanoid henchman makes sense for an evil druid. An evil treant with combat reflexes and improved trip? A called-not-summoned earth elemental who grapples? As Yakk said, it's more important to provide an interesting challenge than to have a better chance of killing the party.

I think the best foes accomplish both.

Therefore, I suggest the Evil Treant idea, except also have it serve as the Fighter's mount.

Yakk
2008-02-27, 05:15 PM
Massive damage monkeys don't provide an interesting challenge other than "how fast can we kill it". If you are dealing the HP of a group member every round in damage, the group must be able to kill the bogey very fast, or they lose.

That means the PCs must save-or-die, or massive-damage-back the fighter, or they lose the fight. You have to build the fighter as killable via massive damage quickly, or the PCs are going to lose.

On the other hand, a control opponent isn't wiping the group out. You can make the control opponent really hard to kill/take out without wiping the group.

So long as the control fighter is causing problems and guarding the offensive character (the druid), the party has to deal with the control fighter, or figure out a way around him.

This give the Druid time to "ramp up" in power.

Alpha strike fights are, quite honestly, boring. Being tripped and possibly disarmed on the ground 20' away from the opponent is disabling, but not "I'm out of the fight". The trick is to make the NPCs collectively have enough defense to stand up to the party for multiple rounds, and enough offense to seriously worry the PCs -- not to have so much offense that the PCs drop dead faster than the PCs can drop the NPCs.

You have an advantage: you don't have that many casters. That means the D&D "save or die" spells aren't nearly as dense on the ground.