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Vandin
2008-02-07, 06:06 PM
Okay, first off: a completely unrelated question. I've got an ECL 6 Lizardfolk rogue in my campaign, and I can't figure out exactly what attack(s) she should have, and at what BAB. With a weapon, it should be one swing at +3. But what about natural attacks? Two claws at +3 and a bite at -2? One claw only? I is confused.

...

Moving on. I'm a fairly green DM, only a few sessions in, still figuring out what I'm doing and such. I started my group off on a module (yes, they started in a tavern). They've about reached the end of the module, and I'm looking for ways to branch out into the campaign I've envisioned.

I decided I wanted a slightly more interesting 'endboss' than the one the module provided, so I set out to create my own. And then I utterly failed. I was trying to make a highly-agile swashbuckling type, but based off what I know of their abilities, he'd have to be CR12+ (vs a ECL6 party) to be a challenge. Am I missing something? Do monsters levels not directly equal CR? Is there some trick to actually making them be a decent challenge without catapulting them halfway to the next level in one fight?

AslanCross
2008-02-07, 07:30 PM
As far as I can tell, a creature with natural attacks can use a manufactured weapon together with its natural attacks in a full attack action. As long as its offhand is unoccupied, it can make a short sword attack, then a claw attack, then a bite. The bite is penalized -5 to its attack bonus unless the creature has multiattack, in which case it's down to a -2 penalty.

Monster hit dice do not equal CR. Some only gain +1 CR for every 4 hit dice, other types gain +1 CR for every 2 HD. Class Levels, however, contribute the most to CR. Associated class levels (a very hazy and undefined term) give +1 CR, while nonassociated class levels add only 1/2 CR per level until the number of levels taken in that class equals the creature's racial hit dice. NPC classes are always non-associated no matter how many levels you take.

Deciding whether a class is associated or not is not defined anywhere and might need some improvisation and interpretation on your part. Typically, you'd consider a caster-type class as associated for a casting creature, say, a Rakshasa. On the other hand, levels in Fighter or Barbarian would be associated for Giants. The Ogre Mage, despite its name and its favored class (sorcerer) should still treat sorcerer levels as unassociated simply due to the class not contributing much to the creature. (It only has spell-like abilities and no innate casting).
Powerful Outsiders would do well in either fighting or casting, and many of them have innate casting progression.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 07:36 PM
As far as I can tell, a creature with natural attacks can use a manufactured weapon together with its natural attacks in a full attack action. As long as its offhand is unoccupied, it can make a short sword attack, then a claw attack, then a bite. The bite is penalized -5 to its attack bonus unless the creature has multiattack, in which case it's down to a -2 penalty.

The claw is too, actually. A 10 Str leve 4 rogue with a claw/claw/bite and a shortsword will attack at Shortsword +3/claw -2/bite -2. Multiattack will make that shortsword +3/claw +1/bite +1.

Vandin
2008-02-07, 07:47 PM
Monster hit dice do not equal CR. ... Class Levels, however, contribute the most to CR.

Wow. That's kind of bizarre. So basically, if I took a random monstrous humanoid (like an owlbear or something), added on some HD and gave it Spring Attack, it'd be a harder fight and lower CR than a human swashbuckler?

Unless I'm reading you wrong, that's screwed up.

Also, er, how do you know the rate of CR gain? Is it listed somewhere?

AslanCross
2008-02-07, 07:54 PM
Ah, I stand corrected.

Anyway, how big is the party? A party of 6 ECL 6 characters is easily capable of taking on CR=ECL+3 threats regularly. Boss encounters could even go as high as CR=ECL+5 if the characters are optimized and the players are experienced.

Even a party of five semi-optimized characters is pretty tough and versatile compared to a party of four. The CR system isn't all that accurate. There are some creatures of equal CR-by-raw and yet will not be as challenging as each other. For example, a 16th level human fighter would be far less challenging than a CR 16 mature adult blue dragon or a CR 16 Horned Devil.

I find that groups of enemies prove to be far more challenging than a single opponent, unless that opponent has effective methods of controlling the battlefield. (Else he can get mobbed and killed rather quickly) A single warrior type had better be pretty darn strong (and well equipped) if he's going to take on the PCs alone.

I still use CR as a guide, but one shouldn't let it box in your encounter design.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 07:54 PM
Wow. That's kind of bizarre. So basically, if I took a random monstrous humanoid (like an owlbear or something), added on some HD and gave it Spring Attack, it'd be a harder fight and lower CR than a human swashbuckler?

Unless I'm reading you wrong, that's screwed up.

Also, er, how do you know the rate of CR gain? Is it listed somewhere?

Right here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng)

AslanCross
2008-02-07, 07:59 PM
Wow. That's kind of bizarre. So basically, if I took a random monstrous humanoid (like an owlbear or something), added on some HD and gave it Spring Attack, it'd be a harder fight and lower CR than a human swashbuckler?

Unless I'm reading you wrong, that's screwed up.

Also, er, how do you know the rate of CR gain? Is it listed somewhere?

I think their reasoning behind this is that monsters usually don't gain BAB as quickly as class levels do, and the options they gain are fairly limited. Monsters gain HD, BAB, and feats and skill points, but a class gains those AND class features. (Imagine an Ogre Mage advanced by 6 HD. Then imagine an Ogre Mage with 6 Crusader Levels.)

However, monsters are not created equal. Outsiders and Dragons get strong pretty quickly, and they've got a liberal dose of special attacks and qualities that make them very hard to deal with (flight, SLAs, breath, etc).

Vandin
2008-02-07, 08:10 PM
Thanks for the link, Fax_Celestis. I could've sworn I'd been down that road before, but apparently I'm blind.

As for the group, it's fairly random in size so far, from 5 to 8 people. With the exception of two, none of them have played games of this sort before (including me :D), and none of them are really hyper-optimized... we've got a cleric, druid, wizard, which will probably make for some minor insanity on my part if the group survives to high levels/they figure out what they're doing.

Here's another two questions, then. If you don't really use the CR system quite as much as suggested, how do you handle exp? A ECL+5 encounter would just about provide all the exp required for 6>7 if I remember right, and that's kind of crazy for just one fight. Do you just wing it, or?


Adding Hit Dice to a creature improves several of its abilities, and radical increases might not follow this progression indefinitely.

Thus spoke d20srd. What abilities? BAB/Saves/etc? Is there a hard & fast rule for it?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-07, 08:12 PM
Thus spoke d20srd. What abilities? BAB/Saves/etc? Is there a hard & fast rule for it?

Yeah. Take a look at my homebrew design how-to thread. The section on monsters contains what you're looking for.

Vandin
2008-02-07, 08:20 PM
That post fills me with unlimited joy. Thanks for all the help :D

AslanCross
2008-02-07, 10:59 PM
Here's another two questions, then. If you don't really use the CR system quite as much as suggested, how do you handle exp? A ECL+5 encounter would just about provide all the exp required for 6>7 if I remember right, and that's kind of crazy for just one fight. Do you just wing it, or?


I still use the CR system for XP rewards. An ECL 6 party would get 10,800 XP for vanquishing a CR 11 monster. 10800/4=2700 each. It takes 6000 XP to get from Lv 6 (15000) to Lv 7 (21,000). It's good for a boss encounter.

To be honest I do give more XP than usual and at times even bump the players up a level. Due to our tight schedule and very short sessions (1 hour 30 minutes a week), we don't progress much so I have to quicken the pace. It wouldn't have been such a problem if my players were buddies I could meet every week if I had to, but they're my students. ^_^; Some of them aren't from this city and only stay at the dorm here, so I can't really meet them during vacations.