OOTS #529 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[ThePhantom]

I thought it needed to be zapped!:smallbiggrin:

[Querzis]

Well look like she cant see him after all. Thats some really funny irony in the last panel.

[kpenguin]

Not even lightning?

[Zakama]

Wow, that was great. I wonder what Ceila's reaction will be though.

[Zimmia]

"Good thing there wasn't a real emergency then"

I laughed so loud I got the attention of everyone left in the office!!

[Kyeudo]

Giant, you are evil. My money was on Cecelia seeing Roy, but apparently you couldn't resist proving the whole forum wrong.

Guess we've narrowed down the plot options though. Must be a "touch the sword" solution.

Wait, have they tried Speak with Dead yet?

[Souju]

You foolish elementals always assume everyone follows the same rules as you LOL.

[greecetrap]

Laughed SO hard. xD

[kentma57]

yes 11!!!! Great comic... everyone expected here to see Roy so everyone expected her to not see Roy...

[Bitzeralisis]

Does this mean Roy got indirectly killed by Celia? ... Well, I'm off to ponder my baseless logic. Ciao!

[Half-blood]

wow... I would be PISSED if I were roy, but I would also be dead so...yeah.

in other news, Would celia really be THAT Naive concerning humans? but I'm not a sylph so I wouldn't know.

[ralphmerridew]

Next update, Haley: Want to go see Roy now? He's in that room.

[Retief]

Wow. I got home today and found the last one, and got this one this evening-two in one day! Great strip not including the timing though. I love it. :smallbiggrin:

[The Extinguisher]

Roy's taking this rather well for someone who just discovered he could have lived had his girlfriend not critically failed her Knowledge (Humans) check.

[RandomLogic]

Oh man the Giant is cranking out the comics! Fantastic!

Also thats hilarious, not even lightning.... Celia's comment about needing it in the last panel is also excellent.

[Ryuuk]

Roy's reaction was great, "...or bonds of mutual lust at least"

[Hectonkhyres]

Damn. This revelation can't be good for anybody's mental health. I think this is a case of acute 'my DM is an ass' syndrome. Easily fixed with little more than a baseball bat to the head.

And are you telling me it has been the better prt of a year and she hasn't even checked up on Roy once? Dear gods, she should be able to teleport into his bedchambers every day after school if she wanted to. Thats what teleporting is for!

[Alfryd]

New comic is up.

Pretty Good.
'The Bonds of Mutual Lust'. There is hope yet! ...or at least no further crushing of hope.

Interestingly, the aesthetic conscience takes the form of a tiny Michaelangelo sitting on one shoulder, arguing with a tiny Jackson Pollock sitting on the other. (The slaad sides with Pollock.)
I take it you are no friend of the abstract expressionists, then. Interestingly, I read a Scientific American article, where they apparently managed to reproduce his style via a mechanical apparatus attached to tree branches and powered by wind.

No, seriously (http://materialscience.uoregon.edu/taylor/art/scientificamerican.pdf).

[Lira]

Oh dear :smallbiggrin:. That was hilarious. I loved Roy's line in the first panel too.

I wonder if the cloister spell will prevent Celia from being able to leave. It seems likely.

[hajo]

Would celia really be THAT Naive concerning humans?
She has been like that before, when she arrived for the trial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0269.html) :smallamused:

[Yendor]

Celia looks so cute in her pajamas.

[Demented]

So much for Knowledge (Summoning Amulets).
And Knowledge (Humans).
But Knowledge (Dramatic Irony) is doing very fine. ;)

[turkishproverb]

She has been before, when she arrived at the trial :smallamused:

Hey, there were sparks when she went out with Roy, weren't there? :smallwink:

[Phae Nymna]

"You can't?" I laughed so hard at that one. Anyway, great comic Mr. BrooksBurlew!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

To quote Leo DeCaprio from "The Quick and the Dead."

"Wow, that was fast!"

[Fitzclowningham]

I wonder why Haley didn't tell Celia Roy was dead. I mean, she's going to, right?

[farland]

Hilarious:smallbiggrin:

[Bag_of_Holding]

I wonder why Haley didn't tell Celia Roy was dead. I mean, she's going to, right?

I'm afraid so... :smallfrown:

[The Giant]

I take it you are no friend of the abstract expressionists, then.

Quite the opposite. I simply see Pollock as the equal-and-opposite of the Renaissance painter.


Interestingly, I read a Scientific American article, where they apparently managed to reproduce his style via a mechanical apparatus attached to tree branches and powered by wind.

No, seriously (http://materialscience.uoregon.edu/taylor/art/scientificamerican.pdf).

Yes, well, considering there is evidence that he may have been painting in fractals years before Chaos Theory was even invented, that's hardly surprising. It's not that the wind duplicated a Jackson Pollock that's interesting; what's interesting is that Jackson Pollock duplicated the wind.

And any more discussion than that will end up derailing my own thread, so it will have to remain at that.

[Courier]

Whoa, what did we do to deserve two (really funny) strips in under 24 hours?

Anyway... I speculate that no one will ever be able to see Roy. Yup. (Please prove me wrong on this, too, Giant - like you have on everything else I've said :smallsmile: )

[Penquin47]

::blink:: I think you're in the wrong thread.

Celia's pajamas are so cute! Me want! Celia's cluelessness is less cute, but ::shrug::.

[Tussy the Druid]

Pajamas. She'll probably start to feel out of place very soon....
Can Celia get back to where ever she came from?

[JasonDoomsblade]

That was a really quick update indeed! Awesome work as always!

[Iliad]

Could you imagine if it was a real emergency :smallbiggrin:
awesome comic

[Oslecamo]

She knows the human laws, but she doesn't know humans can't shoot lighting:smallbiggrin:

[Random Guy]

Yay! Two comics in one day!

I do wonder who will see Roy first, though.

[Dorizzit]

*Snrk*:smalltongue: Seriously. That was hilarious.

[Adventurer]

Even a lawyer can have a moment of Elan-ness :smallbiggrin:

Who wants to bet that Celia will say something that will break Roy's heart in the next strip?

[Ascension]

Oh. Ouch. Pain. Dramatic irony induced pain.

I still think you need to be asleep to see a Greenhilt ghost. I just hope Celia doesn't delay Haley's slumber too long.

[darkshadow1416]

Great comic Giant. Loved the "Good thing there wasn't a real emergency"

My two cents is simply that Roy is currently the same way his Father was when the sword was broken (see comic 291 & 292). My guess is that he actually has to actively manifest through the sword to be visible and audible non-spirit creatures, something he doesn't know he has to do (or likely how).

Edit: I did think for a while that sleep was necessary, however, Roy was extremely awake in comic 78.

[Zebasiz]

"I must have loosened it for you" Laughing my rear end off from panel one. :smallbiggrin:

[CasESenSITItiVE]

"i mean, could you imagine?"
that's got to be the funniest comic in a while

[Alfryd]

Quite the opposite. I simply see Pollock as the equal-and-opposite of the Renaissance painter.
Well, I kind of assumed that one of them would be Evil. Especially when you mentioned the Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html).

[d'Bwobsling]

another awsome comic like usual

[Jayngfet]

WOW, are you out to take a chainsaw to every single epileptic tree in the forums mr. burlew, and if so can I help...pretty please, with lightning hands on top

[teratorn]

All is not lost...
Maybe low wis cratures will be able to see Roy, or maybe due to the way the MoJ is done there is a link between Roy and Belkar.

[Lawliet]

Awesome comic as always.

And the last panel was made of win and awesome.

[dogmac]

Cute PJs, Celia.

Yeah, you'd think we humans would be able to shoot lightening out of our fingers. Talk about a genetic failing!!

Really great comic, Giant.

[mause]

hahahahaha this one really made laugh
bwhahahahahhha

[Roderick_BR]

Now, as much as I like Roy.... he got PWNED! :smallamused:
And now it all makes sense... It's like those child-proof seals, that adults can't open...

[The Tygre]

Wow, that was fast. And suitably hilarious!

Keep up the good work, Giant!

[Forealms]

That is the first comic where I laughed out loud in a long time.It hurts not being able to talk about it with some of my friends when they're 300 pages behind.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Best....comic.....ever...... sooo good it hurts......

[phoenixineohp]

It's good to see her again. But I like her, so there's a great heart string to play. Drat.

Why did her eyes change from blue to black?

[Quorothorn]

*Epic facepalm at Celia.*

And boy, we're hitting the jackpot with awesome, fast updates now, aren't we?

[Szilard]

sometimes when performing magic, sorcerers eye colors change Ex. Samantha.

[Vulion]

Oh, good lord! I love ironic comedy of this strip!

[Ted_Stryker]

+1 for Celia in her jammies.

[HUMVEE Driver]

"So where's Roy then?" as she 'looks' at Roy.

Priceless.

You'd think all these Celestial/Afterlife beings would be smarter.

[kierthos]

Belkar will be able to see Roy. Why? Because it's funny.

Now, he won't bother passing on accurate information when he can twist ghost-Roy's words to his own effect.....

[Mauve Shirt]

HA! "Not even lightning?"

*facepalm* Poor Roy. Poor Celia. Now what happens?

[HUMVEE Driver]

Celia just said "...you can break it..." like that was no big thing at all. Everyone assumed she meant physically breaking it. Everyone but her, of course. Seems kind of irresponsible of her.

I wonder how she can know humans well enough to represent them in court but be so ignorant to basic human physiology.

[Wikkin]

LOL Oops. A lot of oops. :)

[Pyro]

Hah, these last few strips have reminded me so much of the phrase '3 steps foward one step back'

[Morgan Wick]

Oh dear :smallbiggrin:. That was hilarious. I loved Roy's line in the first panel too.

I wonder if the cloister spell will prevent Celia from being able to leave. It seems likely.

I don't see any way that doesn't happen other than a) Roy getting so upset over Celia not telling him about that aspect of the talisman that he inadvertantly appears to Haley and Celia, b) Celia fixing the talisman, and Roy/Haley knowing how to operate it later (in other words, another false firing), or c) Celia discovering Roy's body, casting a spell to find ghosts simply out of vain hope (or actually detecting the presence of one but ignoring it now - or, not ignoring it would be a rather simple d). Simply because we still have the talisman as Chekhov's Gun. (EDIT: Actually, that moment of dramatic irony makes b rather likely; she's taking the whole thing remarkably well considering she was just summoned for what they think is no reason at all. If the talisman were irreplacable, she would probably be pissed. If she does discover Roy's body, though? "Oh, this is all my fault!")

And before you bring me the "Celia falls on the sword" theory, that was pretty much shot to hell by Roy mentioning the broader "sword" theory in the previous strip.

The options for what happens with Roy are a lot broader, but he is not going to be rendered superfluous or that would render this whole try-to-speak-to-Haley adventure pointless.

And I have no idea what Rich and that other guy are talking about...

[Gemstone Hunter]

Rich, your comic is very well-made. I hope we see Roy restored soon. but i'm sure you can make it hilarious when it happens!:smallbiggrin:

[Faramir]

"Interestingly, the aesthetic conscience takes the form of a tiny Michaelangelo sitting on one shoulder, arguing with a tiny Jackson Pollock sitting on the other. (The slaad sides with Pollock.)"




I take it you are no friend of the abstract expressionists, then. Interestingly, I read a Scientific American article, where they apparently managed to reproduce his style via a mechanical apparatus attached to tree branches and powered by wind.


While I find the image/concept hilarious, where are you quoting from?

[teratorn]

"Interestingly, the aesthetic conscience takes the form of a tiny Michaelangelo sitting on one shoulder, arguing with a tiny Jackson Pollock sitting on the other. (The slaad sides with Pollock.)"

While I find the image/concept hilarious, where are you quoting from?

Check the first item in the news on the side. I also found it funny when I read it.

[HOLEkevin]

Not to get off topic by getting back on topic, but this last strip was exactly why I like OotS. The conversational humor is top shelf. No webcomic does dialog better, or funnier. (Well, no one I read, anyway!)

I mean, could you imagine?

[Lolligiggle]

Beautiful layering in the second panel, I really loved the purple silhouetting of The Summoning...

[Warlord JK]

Lolz, poor Roy. He's girlfriend can't even see him.

[SteveMB]

I wonder why Haley didn't tell Celia Roy was dead. I mean, she's going to, right?

The habit of evasiveness, even when it's useless or counterproductive, seems pretty ingrained (it's one of the issues she confronted during the aphasia arc).

[David Argall]

Does this mean Roy got indirectly killed by Celia?

Except in the extreme definition of indirect, no.
Roy was not relying on the amulet when he went jumping up to Xykon. If she had not given it to him, he would quite likely have died from the fall anyway.
So Celia missed a chance to save him, not caused his death.



Oh dear . That was hilarious. I loved Roy's line in the first panel too.



I wonder if the cloister spell will prevent Celia from being able to leave. It seems likely.


If it didn't stop her from getting here, it shouldn't stop her from leaving. Of course, I am still of the opinion it should have stopped her from getting here, so I can't say I am an expert on what is going on. However, having gotten her here, she likely is intended to stay for several strips.

And we learn that our writer is still reading these forums, at least at times, and given his confessed urged to change the plot just so we are surprised [& his request that we do spoiler predictions so he won't yield to temptation], the following is spoilered so he doesn't get tempted.
Haley will break the bad news to Celia, who of course will not take this well. In fact, after a fair amount of screaming and crying she will try suicide with Roy's sword, following which she will have a fit when she sees spirit Roy.
there will be confusion for some time, which will end with Haley trying to touch the sword, but still failing to see Roy. This will also be discussed, with Roy mentioning the kinship theory and saying that this is obviously not the solution since she is related to Roy only by some sex, which would only count if... at which point both pause and say "Oh".

[the_tick_rules]

oh celia, ressurrect roy and get working on those grandkids for your mom already. Boy did roy ever trip over a black cat crossing his path underneath a ladder dropping and breaking mirrors he was carrying?

[Shatteredtower]

Good punchline, Giant. Not really liking Roy at the moment, but since he's extraordinarily frustrated right now (again), I guess it can be forgiven.


And we learn that our writer is still reading these forums, at least at times, and given his confessed urged to change the plot just so we are surprised [& his request that we do spoiler predictions so he won't yield to temptation], the following is spoilered so he doesn't get tempted.
Haley will break the bad news to Celia, who of course will not take this well. In fact, after a fair amount of screaming and crying she will try suicide with Roy's sword, following which she will have a fit when she sees spirit Roy.
there will be confusion for some time, which will end with Haley trying to touch the sword, but still failing to see Roy. This will also be discussed, with Roy mentioning the kinship theory and saying that this is obviously not the solution since she is related to Roy only by some sex, which would only count if... at which point both pause and say "Oh". I can't see the Giant going with the first half of your theory, for some reason. It doesn't strike me as IC for Celia either -- especially when death is a temporary thing.

The second half was amusing, though.

[wheelman]

Yeah, you'd think we humans would be able to shoot lightening out of our fingers. Talk about a genetic failing!!

You mean the rest of you can't?

Huh.

Wierd.

(Wanders off, idly zapping things with finger lightning.)

[Wender]

And Celia's getting grief for not having grandkids... well, it's gonna be a while. :smalltongue:

I just want to see Roy screaming "Celia! Grab my sword!"

[John Campbell]

I'm kind of sad that Haley being able to break the talisman where Roy couldn't was given a reasonable explanation. I had it figured for mockery of the d20 Strength check mechanic, where it's absolutely guaranteed that the 20-Str half-orc barbarian will roll a 2 and fail the check, and then the 8-Str elven wizard will say, "Hey, let me try," roll a 17, and succeed. (I have never, ever seen it happen otherwise.)

[Blanth]

Celia looks so cute in her pajamas.

The little drawstring is a very cute detail.

Also... Slippers!

[Fingolfin]

Hehe, poor Roy, also, it was fun how Celia adresses her mom when she wakes her up. Reminds me of how I was feeling back then :smallamused:

[Elrond]

Can't humans shoot lightning out of there fingers thats weird:smallannoyed:

[Borris]

In Haley's place at that precise moment, I'd probably be wondering whether to take out my weapon and yell: "Snak attack, bitch!" Judging from her face, that might be exactly what she's thinking. She's chaotic good, though, so the little angel will convince her not to.

And it really seems like sylphs in OotS are homemade monsters. Not only are they medium sized while the official version is small, but sylphs in the Monster Manual II do not shoot lightning out of their fingers. Though they do cast spells as sorcerer, that's far from an endless supply of shocking grasps.

[Qualm]

She knows the human laws, but she doesn't know humans can't shoot lighting:smallbiggrin:

Ah, reminds me of classic cartoons:

"I wouldn't mind, except that it violates natural law."
"Yeah, but then I never studied law.... Oh, wait!"

Perhaps a Star Trek reference instead:

"Damn it, Haley! I'm a paralegal, not a xeno-biologist!"

That's the thing with inter-cultural relationships... You make these assumptions that are just not quite right.... Good communication is essential!

[Agalyon]

So humans can't shoot lighting from their fingers?

Hmm my mighty race will find this information useful.

[Ink]

Hmm, not one of my favourite strips, but I guess it does move the plot along. Where is this going though. So now Celia is stuck there like everyone else, and she can't see Roy either... not very helpful. And oh dear, Celia isn't too bright.

[factotum]

And are you telling me it has been the better prt of a year and she hasn't even checked up on Roy once? Dear gods, she should be able to teleport into his bedchambers every day after school if she wanted to. Thats what teleporting is for!

I suspect that sylphs and other extraplanar creatures don't view time the same way we do. I got the impression she's been asleep pretty much since she left Roy the last time, which is why she apparently has no idea what's been happening.

Anyway, so that's the "Celia can see Roy" theory demolished, what's next on the list? :smallwink:

[Oberon]

Well, I kind of assumed that one of them would be Evil. Especially when you mentioned the Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html).

I think the slaad was just supposed to represent Chaos, both here and in Belkar's case. Check out your monster manual. Slaad alignment is "usually chaotic neutral."

Edit: Oh, and great comic, Giant!

[John Campbell]

Hmm, not one of my favourite strips, but I guess it does move the plot along. Where is this going though. So now Celia is stuck there like everyone else, and she can't see Roy either... not very helpful. And oh dear, Celia isn't too bright.

She's not dumb... it's just that Knowledge (Nature) isn't a class skill for Paralegals.

[Animefunkmaster]

+1 for Celia in her jammies.

+2 ^_^

((My message is too short))

[hajo]

You'd think all these Celestial/Afterlife beings would be smarter.
If evil adventurer-partys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) popping in are rare, they probably don't need to be smarter :smallsmile:

[hajo]

I wonder how she can know humans well enough to represent them in court but be so ignorant to basic human ....
Maybe lawyers in general are, ehm... special ? :smallwink:

[Rad]

NO WAY!!!
That was, oh, so funny :smallbiggrin:

[KIDS]

I gotta say that Celia seems awfully cute in this episode. That little change in drawing was full of awesome :)

[Caractacus]

I get the impression that if I were Roy, I would be weeping in frustration at this point...

The word 'Gah!' (with mandatory exclamation mark) really needs an entry in all respectable dictionaries to allow us to deal with situations such as these.

[Niknokitueu]

D'oH!

Nice one, Rich!

Isn't Celia looking especially cute in this comic...?

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

ps. One quick personal reminder: If any of you have something developmental to say, stick it in a [ spoiler] [/ spoiler] box. Like this:

Right. So when are we going to get on with Roy manifesting, then? "Bring it back, bring it back, don't take it away from me, because I don't know, what it means to me..." (Queen)

[Ink]

Haley will break the bad news to Celia, who of course will not take this well. In fact, after a fair amount of screaming and crying she will try suicide with Roy's sword, following which she will have a fit when she sees spirit Roy.
there will be confusion for some time, which will end with Haley trying to touch the sword, but still failing to see Roy. This will also be discussed, with Roy mentioning the kinship theory and saying that this is obviously not the solution since she is related to Roy only by some sex, which would only count if... at which point both pause and say "Oh".

It seems unlikely. Why should she try to kill herself? She has been on exactly one date with the man. Hardly a reason to break out the histrionics. Besides death is such a temporary thing in the DnD world, and they fully intend to resurrect Roy. If she ends up touching the sword I doubt it'll be for any suicidal intent on her part.

As for the second part, after almost four months don't you think Celia would have some inkling by now if this were the case?

[fractal]

Too bad Roy wasn't hit by some powerful spell utilizing magical energy shortly before falling to his death. Then the amulet could have been broken and he might have been saved.

[Fabio_MP]

New comic is up.


hahahahaha oh dear :)

thank you very much....

Celia: hey how could I know you don't shot lightning....

lol

[banjo1985]

Well, that could cause some tension when Roy get's ressurected :smalleek:

Nice strip, and good to see Celia back!

[warmachine]

I wanna know why Haley and Celia didn't hug when they met. Or is that a British thing?

[Swordlol]

I get the impression that if I were Roy, I would be weeping in frustration at this point...

The word 'Gah!' (with mandatory exclamation mark) really needs an entry in all respectable dictionaries to allow us to deal with situations such as these.

If you send an e-mail to Webster, I'll send an e-mail to webster.

[hewhosaysfish]

Too bad Roy wasn't hit by some powerful spell utilizing magical energy shortly before falling to his death. Then the amulet could have been broken and he might have been saved.

Ah but, area attacks only harm your kit if you get a nat. 1 on the saving throw.
Ironically, that Meteor Swarm might have save Roy's bacon, if the dice had come up differently...

[Tom90deg]

Ahh, as to why she has'nt been in contact with Roy, see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html

Celia said she'd see him again during break, as as she IS in Law school, which can be kinda tough, she probably was busy and assumed Roy was off saving the world.

[ref]

Hmm... Celia in Pajamas + Elan moment + Haley's Latent Bisexuality = ...
Roy keeps discovering the disadvantages of dating outside your species.

[Tobrian]

Ha, I totally called it in the #528 thread! :smallbiggrin:

The fact that the talisman only broke after it was zapped with an orb of electricity is probably not a coincidence. Celia is a Sylph, an air elemental creature.... who has the spell-like ability to fire bolts of lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html). There you go.

Magical items that you need to break to summon something shouldn't break prematurely, so it makes sense if the talisman was somehow keyed to electricity. I wonder, though, why would Celia 1) give Roy such a talisman when he's a fighter with no natural magic ability, and 2) neglect to tell him about it?


Poor Celia, when Haley has to tell her Roy is dead. Or... show her the rotting corpse. Eeww. :smalleek: Will Celia be able to airlift Haley, Roy and Belkar plus sword out? As they don't know where the fleet went, I doubt it will be so easy.


I do wonder who will see Roy first, though.
Shojo's cat. :smallwink:

[TroyXavier]

Celia's not too bright is she? Fun little comic.

[Mojique]

"it's a good thing there wasn't a real emergency"

Wuhahahaha... Celia made my day!

[pasko77]

Eh :)
Great strip, the art upgrade on Celia is really cute!

Oh, and Celia is not dumb, she is blond.

[Yendor]

Get off Celia's case, dammit. Think of how much you don't know about sylphs.

Anyway, Haley has a lot of bad news for her.

:haley: We went to the Oracle and the Oracle said Xykon was heading to Girard's Gate but then Nale escaped from jail and appeared to Roy in a vision and said he'd kidnapped Roy's sister and threatened to kill her if we didn't hand over Elan so we went to Cliffport and beat up Nale's cronies but Nale and Thog captured Elan and Nale took Elan's place and Elan went to jail and Nale teleported off with us and Nale tried to seduce me and kill me but Elan escaped from jail and came to Azure City on an airship and beat up Nale but then Nale tried to make him think I was in league with Nale but I told Elan I loved him and got my voice back and we beat up Nale and Sabine and Thog and got Shojo to put them in prison but then Miko came back and said Xykon was headed to Azure City with a big army and she went nuts and killed Shojo and Xykon's army arrived and there was a big battle and Roy jumped up onto Xykon's zombified dragon but Xykon blasted him off and he fell to the ground and died and Xykon went into the castle and then his army charged into the city and most of our army ran away and then Soon's Gate was blown up and destroyed most of the castle so we decided to retreat but Belkar and I went to get Roy's body back from a monster with a pink umbrella but when we got back the boat had left without us so we were left behind and now we're stuck in the city which is swarming with hobgoblins and we can't get out.

[Max_Sinister]

Wait, have they tried Speak with Dead yet?

Apparently they don't have any clerics in The Resistance.

And I have to say, Celia is... how do you say in the US? A Ditz.

[Niknokitueu]

Get off Celia's case, dammit. Think of how much you don't know about sylphs.

Anyway, Haley has a lot of bad news for her.

:haley: We went to the Oracle and the Oracle said Xykon was heading to Girard's Gate but then Nale escaped from jail and appeared to Roy in a vision and said he'd kidnapped Roy's sister and threatened to kill her if we didn't hand over Elan so we went to Cliffport and beat up Nale's cronies but Nale and Thog captured Elan and Nale took Elan's place and Elan went to jail and Nale teleported off with us and Nale tried to seduce me and kill me but Elan escaped from jail and came to Azure City on an airship and beat up Nale but then Nale tried to make him think I was in league with Nale but I told Elan I loved him and got my voice back and we beat up Nale and Sabine and Thog and got Shojo to put them in prison but then Miko came back and said Xykon was headed to Azure City with a big army and she went nuts and killed Shojo and Xykon's army arrived and there was a big battle and Roy jumped up onto Xykon's zombified dragon but Xykon blasted him off and he fell to the ground and died and Xykon went into the castle and then his army charged into the city and most of our army ran away and then Soon's Gate was blown up and destroyed most of the castle so we decided to retreat but Belkar and I went to get Roy's body back from a monster with a pink umbrella but when we got back the boat had left without us so we were left behind and now we're stuck in the city which is swarming with hobgoblins and we can't get out.

And I can just imagine celia's responses during the monologue:
:celia: "Uh-huh. Yeah. Ah-huh. Wait, Roy is DEAD? "

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[SteveMB]

I wanna know why Haley and Celia didn't hug when they met. Or is that a British thing?

By the Laws of Comedic Physics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0246.html), Belkar would have needed to walk into the room at that moment, so he could capture the mental image for later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0248.html). :smallbiggrin:

[Sarastro]

ROFL! That was a funny update. I wonder what Celia was thinking. . .maybe its because of the wings. . .

[Solara]

Poor Roy! We thought Haley had it bad during that whole aphasia thing...

And wow these rapid updates have been nice. :smallsmile:


Too bad Roy wasn't hit by some powerful spell utilizing magical energy shortly before falling to his death. Then the amulet could have been broken and he might have been saved.

It's been pretty strongly implied that the energy needs to be electrical (or at least zappy) in nature.

[T-Ice]

But what is that strange two-sleeved thing Celia is wearing on her legs ?

[Sengoku]

Lol! The strips showing how supernatural beings are similar to XXI century humans always get me ;)

Sabine using Plane Shift early in the morning, and now Celia putting up an act to avoid being summoned by her mother ;).

Edit: Yeah, forgot to add: these rapid updated are :smallcool:

[Andorax]

And it really seems like sylphs in OotS are homemade monsters. Not only are they medium sized while the official version is small, but sylphs in the Monster Manual II do not shoot lightning out of their fingers. Though they do cast spells as sorcerer, that's far from an endless supply of shocking grasps.

Well, do keep in mind that since MMII isn't SRD, they're only semi-usable as is anyways...but with that in mind, consider that Sylphs may well be able to generate small lightning sparks. Not enough to actual deal hit point damage, mind, but just little "static electricity" shock thingys.

[Robert Paulson]

Best comic since Belkar looked up the evil girl's skirt. Keep up the good work, Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[Blaznak]

The eternal frustration of being Roy continues!

But here's a question: Why wouldn't Celia check in on Roy after all this time? I mean you'd think she'd at least want to say the occasional "Hello..."?

Dunno.

Later!

[Doug Lampert]

wow... I would be PISSED if I were roy, but I would also be dead so...yeah.

in other news, Would celia really be THAT Naive concerning humans? but I'm not a sylph so I wouldn't know.Knowing ANYTHING about a "monster" race requires a knowledge check. Humaniods all come under Knowledge (Local) and are DC 11. At DC 11 she knows ONE thing about humans and can identify one if she sees it, for every five points she makes the check by she gets an additional peice of information. Unfortunately knowledge is TRAINED ONLY, with a special rule that DC 10 and lower can be gotten untrained.

She probably has no knowledge local and thus knows nothing about humans but what Roy's told her.

(Note: This is a really stupid rule. Identifying a dragon by sight isn't possible without trained knowledge arcana, and identifying a lion requires trained knowledge nature. Sylphs know about humans by knowledge local? But then it isn't like Rich DOESN'T make fun of stupid rules.)

[Craig1f]

Knowing ANYTHING about a "monster" race requires a knowledge check. Humaniods all come under Knowledge (Local) and are DC 11. At DC 11 she knows ONE thing about humans and can identify one if she sees it, for every five points she makes the check by she gets an additional peice of information. Unfortunately knowledge is TRAINED ONLY, with a special rule that DC 10 and lower can be gotten untrained.

She probably has no knowledge local and thus knows nothing about humans but what Roy's told her.

(Note: This is a really stupid rule. Identifying a dragon by sight isn't possible without trained knowledge arcana, and identifying a lion requires trained knowledge nature. Sylphs know about humans by knowledge local? But then it isn't like Rich DOESN'T make fun of stupid rules.)

The knowledge rules only apply to things you haven't already seen and know about. Knowledge Local DC 11 will allow you to recognize a human on sight and know one thing about humans if you've never met a human before or been given specific knowledge about them.

[SteveMB]

But here's a question: Why wouldn't Celia check in on Roy after all this time? I mean you'd think she'd at least want to say the occasional "Hello..."?

They were planning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) to meet again during Celia's Winter break (from law school). Until then, she was busy with classes, and he was busy with saving the world.

[Raider]

Celia isn't the smartest winged humanoid in the MM

[Faramir]

Check the first item in the news on the side. I also found it funny when I read it.

Thanks!

Anyway, fun strip. From the classic macho "I must have loosened that" to the classic summoned "Who dares disturb my slumber" to Celia's final comment, lots to chuckle at.

[Zienth]

Now that that was funny! Thanks Giant!

Zienth

[Shatteredtower]

Celia's not too bright is she?When something is a mundane, everyday part of your existence, it is natural to assume it's a given until given cause to think otherwise.

For example, I worked on a camp in the Yukon two summers in a row. One week, we had a dozen Inuit teens come down with agonizing stomach cramps in the evening. Why? Because this was the first time they had access to whole milk.

The next week, we had the same problem with the Newfoundlanders. Why? Because they were only getting the recommended amount of salt in their diets now, as opposed to the excessive amounts they'd been getting back home, where salting has long been the traditional method of preserving food, to the point that people have gotten used to taking in far more of it than is safe for them. It didn't occur to them to add salt to their food that summer, because it wasn't like they'd had to add salt to the presalted food they'd been getting at home.

Then there was the issue of communication. You had people who assumed that everyone answered yes-or-no questions with "Yes," or "No," not a blink for yes and a nod (!) for no. Sarcasm was a bad idea, as there was a reason many of the people at camp would end a statement with, "I lie," or "I kid."

Don't even get me started on the moral assumptions. :smallsigh:

Really, why would, "Humans can't generate electricity," normally be on Celia's need-to-know list? It's not like this sort of information could save her life or anything, at least not in normal circumstances. There's no reason for it to have come up as a point of etiquette or law. It's not as apparent, either, the way wings are, so it's only a natural oversight due to expectations of a non-existent norm.

But now you've got me thinking, "Good grief -- Roy's dating Lum!"

[DrivinAllNight]

something has got to be brewing in the OotS world, especially since we are seeing a character from the past. It doesn't make much sense to me to bring Celia back with a good reason, and the comedy aspect won't last to long. So hopefully she has some way of getting around the Cloister and maybe can even see Roy once she realizes he is dead. Maybe Sylph's can more easily talk to the dead? I don't know though since I haven't played D&D since 1989. Still a great comic though.
I mean, could you imagine? :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

The knowledge rules only apply to things you haven't already seen and know about. Knowledge Local DC 11 will allow you to recognize a human on sight and know one thing about humans if you've never met a human before or been given specific knowledge about them.Which means, AS I SAID, that she knows nothing plus what she's learned from Roy. When did Roy tell her he can't shoot lightning from his fingertips?

[Craig1f]

Really, why would, "Humans can't generate electricity," normally be on Celia's need-to-know list? It's not like this sort of information could save her life or anything, at least not in normal circumstances. There's no reason for it to have come up as a point of etiquette or law. It's not as apparent, either, the way wings are, so it's only a natural oversight due to expectations of a non-existent norm.

I generate a sh*t-ton of electricity whenever I get out of my car and touch the door frame. If only way I could harness that energy in a more controlled way ...


Which means, AS I SAID, that she knows nothing plus what she's learned from Roy. When did Roy tell her he can't shoot lightning from his fingertips?

Ah you're right. My mistake.

[ishnar]

First, kudos for that long joke setup.


Knowing ANYTHING about a "monster" race requires a knowledge check. Humaniods all come under Knowledge (Local) and are DC 11. At DC 11 she knows ONE thing about humans and can identify one if she sees it, for every five points she makes the check by she gets an additional peice of information. Unfortunately knowledge is TRAINED ONLY, with a special rule that DC 10 and lower can be gotten untrained.

She probably has no knowledge local and thus knows nothing about humans but what Roy's told her.


The problem with knowledge (local) is it is not one skill, it requires a designator. Knowledge (local-waterdeep)

She probably does have knowledge local, just not for that locality. For her, knowledge -local would be knowledge - plain xxx for Roy.


Identifying a dragon by sight isn't possible without trained knowledge arcana, and identifying a lion requires trained knowledge nature.

No, the rule isn't stupid. It's the stupid DMs that don't add appropriate circumstance modifiers. Such as +10 for common in popular lore. Still, there are other creatures that look like dragons but are not, so without a specific trained skill, it's not unreasonable for the untrained to confuse a bobcat for a female lion or a pterodactyl for a dragon.

[Megalomaniac2]

Celia isn't the smartest winged humanoid in the MM

My guess is she spent so much time working for Dorukan she started thinking all humans were zap-capable.

[David Argall]

after almost four months don't you think Celia would have some inkling by now if this were the case?
It depends. Roy Jr. would be about the size of a tomato and Celia could not notice at all, or merely think she has been cheating on her diet a bit more than normal. There have been women who checked into the hospital with "stomach problems", and came out with a baby. Now such women are generally on the "substantial" side, and sylphs are assumed to be build more like the supermodels, of whom it is said that every time she swallows a olive without chewing, men panic. But it is not particularly unreasonable that she hasn't noticed yet.
And we are dealing with a different race, which allows us a little slack as well. So if it fits the plot, it flies.

[pasko77]

But now you've got me thinking, "Good grief -- Roy's dating Lum!"


Lol. This one made me laugh. So many years... i almost forgot about Lum.

[Wender]

It depends. Roy Jr. would be about the size of a tomato and Celia could not notice at all, or merely think she has been cheating on her diet a bit more than normal. There have been women who checked into the hospital with "stomach problems", and came out with a baby. Now such women are generally on the "substantial" side, and sylphs are assumed to be build more like the supermodels, of whom it is said that every time she swallows a olive without chewing, men panic. But it is not particularly unreasonable that she hasn't noticed yet.
And we are dealing with a different race, which allows us a little slack as well. So if it fits the plot, it flies.

For all we know, she'll lay an egg. Boy, would that surprise Roy. :smallamused:

[rickvoid]

Yeah. I spent most of this comic trying to see if Celia was showing or not.

The results are inconclusive. :smallannoyed:

However I'm happy to see that my guess that Celia would be summoned turned out to be correct. :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

First, kudos for that long joke setup.



The problem with knowledge (local) is it is not one skill, it requires a designator. Knowledge (local-waterdeep)

She probably does have knowledge local, just not for that locality. For her, knowledge -local would be knowledge - plain xxx for Roy.



No, the rule isn't stupid. It's the stupid DMs that don't add appropriate circumstance modifiers. Such as +10 for common in popular lore. Still, there are other creatures that look like dragons but are not, so without a specific trained skill, it's not unreasonable for the untrained to confuse a bobcat for a female lion or a pterodactyl for a dragon.
(A) I defy you to find ANYTHING in 3.5 that says Knowledge (Local) requires any further designation. There is a skill description and it doesn't say any such thing. You are using the 3.0/common sense rule, not 3.5 which has only a very limited collection of knowledge skills.

(B) Circumstance modifieres are normally +2 for a significant advantage. Where are you getting +10 from. And even with +10 to her roll IT DOESN'T HELP! Because the skill can't be used untrained on DC11+ checks, and knowing ANYTHING about any creature with 1+HD is DC11+.

There is NO common knowledge about any race or species in D&D played by the book. Give a +1,000,000 circumstance bonus and you still don't know squat.

DougL

[Hopeless]

All is not lost...
Maybe low wis cratures will be able to see Roy, or maybe due to the way the MoJ is done there is a link between Roy and Belkar.

GRINS
Yes, I'm rather hoping Belkar walks in and immediately notices Roy perhaps its left to the end of that comic where he replies to one of Roy's comments resulting in Roy realising Mr Scruffy has granted his familiar the ability to converse with ghosts after all cats are supposed to be sensitive to the supernatural after all!

I wonder if Belkar will use his Craft Disturbing Image like he did when Roy was temporarily a woman?

[Oeep Snaec]

Oh man, I choked on a graham cracker when I read this one.

[Ezbez]

Excellent comic!

[otakuryoga]

Celia looks so cute in her pajamas.

yes..but my first thought when she explained that she had been summoned out of bed was "too bad she doesnt sleep in the raw"...but then this IS a family friendly comic.....and then theres also the fact that she is a STICK FIGURE :smallredface:

[Haineko]

It may be that I need to do some research into Giant's drawings, as I don't recall too many people wearing pants, but isn't it kinda weird that there's a line around Celia's belly? It may just be Giant's style but that kinda indicates a little chubbyness to me that may just be Roy or Celia Jr.

[eilandesq]

[reads first 141 responses]

I can't believe no one has thought of this yet. . .

(channels Comic Book Guy)

Worst--Girlfriend--Ever! :smallbiggrin:

[mvp129]

Next update, Haley: Want to go see Roy now? He's in that room.

i hereby vote thee best comment in thread

[silvadel]

Somehow I do not think celia will take it well when she learns Roy fell to his death because he couldnt break the amulet....

[shaddy_24]

Ha, ha, Celia got a natural 1 on her Knowledge (nature) check.

[Shatteredtower]

yes..but my first thought when she explained that she had been summoned out of bed was "too bad she doesnt sleep in the raw"...Don't be too sure. It's doubtful that she sleeps in her slippers, but you can see them on her feet. That suggests she had time to make herself a bit more presentable before going to see what Mom wanted this time.

[wheelman]

OMGWTF Celia is a ditz!

C'mon. In Celia's defense:

- Knowledge (Humans) is not, has never been, and never will be a class skill for attorneys.

- In any event, Celia's Knowledge (Humans) ranks are probably precisely equal to the sum of the rest of the OOTS's Knowledge (Fey) ranks.

- The only time anyone in the OOTS universe succeeds on any sort of skill check is that rare occasion when success would be funnier than failure.

- She really does look adorable in the pajamas and slippers.


In closing, we call Mr. Phil Rodriguez to summarize the case for the defense:

:elan: :But there's no little smiley face thing for Phil. Can I do it?

Um...All right...

:elan: :*Ahem*

Don't blame the defendant for splatting the hero;
She really did think his voltage was non-zero.

Thank you, Elan. Mr. Rodriguez couldn't have said it any better (gods help us all).

[ashmanonar]

Not to get off topic by getting back on topic, but this last strip was exactly why I like OotS. The conversational humor is top shelf. No webcomic does dialog better, or funnier. (Well, no one I read, anyway!)

I mean, could you imagine?

Offtopic: Read Questionable Content (http://www.questionablecontent.net).

Ontopic: I think a lot of the theories being thrown around are really interesting. Hopefully some light gets shed soon.

[Lumenadducere]

I wonder if they're going to tell Celia about Roy. It'd be interesting, to say the least.

And I'm still definitely looking forward to when Roy can talk to Haley and let her know what Elan's been up to. Hopefully that'll make her feel better.

[Ascension]

And I'm still definitely looking forward to when Roy can talk to Haley and let her know what Elan's been up to. Hopefully that'll make her feel better.

What, it'll make her feel better to know she has a cute half-orc after her man?

That being said, I'd buy tickets to see Haley vs. Therkla. Fight! Fight! Fight!

[Morgan Wick]

Check the first item in the news on the side. I also found it funny when I read it.

The news hasn't been updated in so long I initially didn't think to look at it :)



If it didn't stop her from getting here, it shouldn't stop her from leaving. Of course, I am still of the opinion it should have stopped her from getting here, so I can't say I am an expert on what is going on. However, having gotten her here, she likely is intended to stay for several strips. Given the way in which she got there, I would not be surprised if it did keep her from leaving. Your argument holds more water as regards Roy.

[FujinAkari]

If it didn't stop her from getting here, it shouldn't stop her from leaving. Of course, I am still of the opinion it should have stopped her from getting here, so I can't say I am an expert on what is going on. However, having gotten her here, she likely is intended to stay for several strips.


I'm a bit curious where this idea that Cloister interferes with Teleportation comes from. All we KNOW about Cloister is that it prevents Scrying...

[Arkenputtyknife]

So humans can't shoot lighting from their fingers?
Hey, shooting lightning from his fingers was one of my brother's party tricks. (But he did have access to a good-sized Van der Graaf generator.)

[Morgan Wick]

I'm a bit curious where this idea that Cloister interferes with Teleportation comes from. All we KNOW about Cloister is that it prevents Scrying...

Here's how Xykon described Cloister in #484:

Ladies and gentlemen, Azure City is officially off the grid.
Which would seem to imply no one in the city can know anything that's happened outside it and vice versa, in any way, shape or form. This, in turn, also implies no entering or exiting, no exceptions.

[Yendor]

And yet Celia got in.

I want to see Haley and Celia team up to kick Tsukiko's ass.

[John Campbell]

Y'know, it just occurred to me...

If Eugene is scrying this, he's got to be laughing his butt off (or at least storing up sarcastic quips for later). The talisman is yet another way that being a wizard could've saved Roy's life.

[Shatteredtower]

Which would seem to imply no one in the city can know anything that's happened outside it and vice versa, in any way, shape or form. This, in turn, also implies no entering or exiting, no exceptions.How does it imply that? When my workplace suffered a power outage that even shut down the phones, we were certainly off the communications grid, but people were still able to walk into and out of the building.

Celia's arrival was foreshadowed the moment we saw Tsukiko and the Wight Stuff teleport, since teleportation takes place through the astral plane. Strip #192 reveals that Xykon is capable of warding a place against teleportation, but not if he can ward an entire city, rather than just a tower. Even if he could, though, it might not be in his best interests to ward anything more than his personal chambers for at least two reasons:

1. Teleportation is one of his (and Tsukiko's) biggest advantages over anyone else in the city.
2. Anyone trying to teleport into the city from outside will be coming in blind, without the benefit of divination magic to guide them. Most players consider that sort of thing suicidal.

[Morgan Wick]

How does it imply that? When my workplace suffered a power outage that even shut down the phones, we were certainly off the communications grid, but people were still able to walk into and out of the building.

Celia's arrival was foreshadowed the moment we saw Tsukiko and the Wight Stuff teleport, since teleportation takes place through the astral plane. Strip #192 reveals that Xykon is capable of warding a place against teleportation, but not if he can ward an entire city, rather than just a tower. Even if he could, though, it might not be in his best interests to ward anything more than his personal chambers for at least two reasons:

1. Teleportation is one of his (and Tsukiko's) biggest advantages over anyone else in the city.
2. Anyone trying to teleport into the city from outside will be coming in blind, without the benefit of divination magic to guide them. Most players consider that sort of thing suicidal.
Hey, I'm just saying what the reasoning is.

[hrak]

I am still confused about why Haley cant see Roy...

[factotum]

I am still confused about why Haley cant see Roy...

Because he's a spirit who isn't actually on the same plane of existence as she is.

[Moff Chumley]

Hey, shooting lightning from his fingers was one of my brother's party tricks. (But he did have access to a good-sized Van der Graaf generator.)

Eh, Van Der Graaf Generator is a British prog band. Is Van de Graaf Generator what you were looking for? [/Nitpick]

One thing somes up this comic: :annoyed: . :smallsmile:

[wheelman]

How does it imply that? When my workplace suffered a power outage that even shut down the phones, we were certainly off the communications grid, but people were still able to walk into and out of the building.

Yes, that is a nice thought, isn't it?

But it occurs to me that if people weren't able to walk in or out -- if, in fact, you were still trapped in that building, in a never-ending night in which all communication lines were down, no one could enter or leave, and the sun never seemed to rise -- that you might go a little mad. You might even begin to really believe you were living in a world where you were free to come and go as you liked, walk in the sunlight, even post to the GITP boards...

Hey, I'm just saying.

[David Argall]

I'm a bit curious where this idea that Cloister interferes with Teleportation comes from. All we KNOW about Cloister is that it prevents Scrying...

A basic piece of evidence is that Haley is still in the city and apparently has never left. But the idea that V's failure to communicate has some relationship to the lack of sun in the area seems quite obvious, and Haley should have had little trouble leaving the city at her whim. [We are told hide is her best skill, which means she makes the needed hide roll on a 1. Her move silently is likely quite high too.]
So if it was physically possible, she should have left the city soon after
484 so V would have a better chance to contact her. Instead, she has apparently spent all that time in the city. And so we conclude she can't physically leave the city.

[factotum]

So if it was physically possible, she should have left the city soon after
484 so V would have a better chance to contact her. Instead, she has apparently spent all that time in the city. And so we conclude she can't physically leave the city.

Doesn't necessarily follow. She might have got caught up in the Resistance soon after #484, and since she's Good, she would consider helping them out to be very important.

[Rockphed]

Eh, Van Der Graaf Generator is a British prog band. Is Van de Graaf Generator what you were looking for? [/Nitpick]

One thing somes up this comic: :annoyed: . :smallsmile:

And it is SUMS, not somes. One is a verb and plural noun, the other is a bar in California.[/nitpick]

I liked Celia's Entrance. Very classy.

[FujinAkari]

So if it was physically possible, she should have left the city soon after
484 so V would have a better chance to contact her. Instead, she has apparently spent all that time in the city. And so we conclude she can't physically leave the city.

Does not follow.

As noted, as a Chaotic Good character, Haley likely feels some responcibility to help with the resistance. Additionally, your theory holds that Haley would somehow psychically be aware that V cannot contact her due to her being in Azure City, which she would need ranks in Knowledge: Arcane to discern.

Haley doesn't know WHAT Xykon cast, there is certainly no reason for her to assume leaving the city will help the situation, she still won't know where her friends are, and if they haven't contacted her so far, she might very well assume they aren't in a position to come get her (or they would have already).

[David Argall]

Does not follow.

As noted, as a Chaotic Good character, Haley likely feels some responcibility to help with the resistance.
Now we are not told how fast the resistance forms, but the presumption is that it takes some time. For the first week or so, everybody is ducking and hiding. That means that by the time Haley feels any responsibility, she should have long left.


Additionally, your theory holds that Haley would somehow psychically be aware that V cannot contact her due to her being in Azure City, which she would need ranks in Knowledge: Arcane to discern.
No such check is needed. We have in 484 that Haley and others assumed she would be contacted in the morning. So she needs no knowledge check to know in 24 hours that something is wrong, and that in 48 hours something is really wrong.
She also needs no check to know that a grey-black sky day and night is not natural. Not to mention the expanded rift. So in about 2 days, she can be pretty sure she is not going to get contacted if she stays in Azure city, and she still has no reason to think that she can't be contacted if she leaves the city. Even if we assume a contact with a resistance at this time, she would likely reason that getting Roy back, a task of a day or two, has priority.


Haley doesn't know WHAT Xykon cast,
But she does "know" he cast something, and the idea that something is interfering with V's contacting her is an obvious one.


there is certainly no reason for her to assume leaving the city will help the situation,
But listen to what Haley is saying. She doesn't really see how her staying is helping. She figures she will be stomped as soon as Xykon actually feels like doing so. If she can't leave the city, staying and fighting makes sense, at least in the sense that nothing looks any better. But leaving the city might contact a half dozen characters of her level to help. That offers at least a hope of success. Stay in the city = certain loss. Leave = some chance. That seems a pretty clear choice.


she still won't know where her friends are, and if they haven't contacted her so far, she might very well assume they aren't in a position to come get her (or they would have already).
Assuming her friends have abandoned her without a word? Vs assuming there is a problem and maybe she can fix it? Again, that seems an easy call.



Doesn't necessarily follow.
Which is a quibble. If your argument is based on Haley being a complete idiot and overlooking the obvious, your argument is in trouble.



She might have got caught up in the Resistance soon after #484, and since she's Good, she would consider helping them out to be very important.
Might have, might have. In other words, a distinctly larger might not have. But see the analysis above. Even if she found the resistance quickly, and deemed helping it important, getting Roy back was the best way to help the resistance, and that means trying to take care of the problem. Sitting around was not working.

[FujinAkari]

Now we are not told how fast the resistance forms, but the presumption is that it takes some time. For the first week or so, everybody is ducking and hiding. That means that by the time Haley feels any responsibility, she should have long left.

What exactly were they doing for the first week? Hoping Xykon would leave? We know that they all went to the caves to hide, so it likely took them all of five seconds to form the resistance, although much longer to actually DO anything.

No such check is needed. We have in 484 that Haley and others assumed she would be contacted in the morning. So she needs no knowledge check to know in 24 hours that something is wrong, and that in 48 hours something is really wrong.[/quote]

Correct, she likely assumes that the others are dead. I mean, she knows Xykon could squish them like a bug, and that as of yet he hasn't even bothered to show a remote interest in fighting them. It is a logical conclusion that he has put his resources into Hinjo and the Azure City forces, who are an -actual- threat.

Even if she doesn't assume they're dead, she has to assume they will contact her, as neither her nor Belkar can do it.


She also needs no check to know that a grey-black sky day and night is not natural. Not to mention the expanded rift. So in about 2 days, she can be pretty sure she is not going to get contacted if she stays in Azure city,

What makes you think that it is like that day and night? We've only seen Azure City twice, and both times were at night. Haley may not even realize that effect is from Cloister, she likely assumes thats just how rifts LOOK.

You are also assuming psychic powers which Haley does not have. There is NO reason for her to assume the lack of contact is due to a spell which she probably doesn't even know that Xykon cast, but instead that V can't cast it for some reason.

Your entire argument seems to be "If she could have, Haley would have taken the initiative and left Azure City to find the party!" which seems to be overlooking the main point of this section of the comic, that Haley isn't a good leader and doesn't take the initiative. She goes along the path of least resistance, and since the others wanted her to help fight Xykon in Azure City... she did.

[Scribble]

Celia has good taste in fashion.

[Morgan Wick]

What makes you think that it is like that day and night? We've only seen Azure City twice, and both times were at night. Haley may not even realize that effect is from Cloister, she likely assumes thats just how rifts LOOK.

How do you know the second time was supposed to be night? It stands to reason it took a while for Haley and Belkar to get back to HQ, and it's right after the very daytime check of the Elan/V/Durkon group. At the very least, it could have been the evening. Don't say "because the sky looks dark" because that's circular reasoning.

[David Argall]

What exactly were they doing for the first week? Hoping Xykon would leave?
Quite possibly. That is the basic plan of Lord Kubota for example, to pick up the pieces after the lich moves on. It is an idea in accord with all we know of Xykon. Indeed, we still have no good reason for his still being here. Redcloak may have wanted to stay, but Xykon was bored with the city as soon as the Gate went, and Xykon rules.
So it would be entirely reasonable to just hide and hope for quite some time.


We know that they all went to the caves to hide, so it likely took them all of five seconds to form the resistance, although much longer to actually DO anything.
The caves is not just one location. They have to be scattered locations, which, even in interconnected, are difficult to communicate between. Recall here that the idea is to hide, not to communicate with the others.
And the very fact they are there to hide means they are not thinking of resistance. They are hiding. Resisting would get them found. Only after food ran short/etc and they had to move anyway would they start thinking of resistance.


she likely assumes that the others are dead.
Why would she assume something that guarantees she is going to lose. She can well fear this, but assume it? Most unlikely.
Look at friends and relatives of disaster victims. They sometimes refuse to accept the deaths even after they can touch the body. They keep hoping long beyond any reasonable time. And they spend money and time to "rescue" the victim. [Sometimes wisely since 99-1 against is still good odds when that 1 pays off 1000-1] Haley might well have sinking hopes for the others by now, but she is not going to assume their deaths right away.
Note too that she did see their ship on the horizon in 483 and in 484, she assumed they were still alive.


Even if she doesn't assume they're dead, she has to assume they will contact her, as neither her nor Belkar can do it.
So she is supposed to do nothing instead of doing something that might help?


What makes you think that it is like that day and night?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html
"Good morning...At least I think it's morning..It's hard to tell..."


Haley may not even realize that effect is from Cloister, she likely assumes thats just how rifts LOOK.
Which doesn't change her analysis. V can normally communicate by magic and V is not calling when s/he should be. The sky is very unusual. Could this be connected? I can check that by going a day's walk from the city. Why shouldn't I check? I haven't got anything exactly useful to do otherwise.


There is NO reason for her to assume the lack of contact is due to a spell which she probably doesn't even know that Xykon cast, but instead that V can't cast it for some reason.
Reason? Sure there is. She knows Xykon is an epic caster. Anything weird around him could be his fault. She doesn't know it is, but she can certainly suspect.
More important, she doesn't need to suspect. She's like a cell phone user with interrupted coverage. She doesn't know that the big building is blocking coverage or the other party has hung up or... But one of her options is to move to a location where she has better coverage.


Your entire argument seems to be "If she could have, Haley would have taken the initiative and left Azure City to find the party!" which seems to be overlooking the main point of this section of the comic, that Haley isn't a good leader and doesn't take the initiative. She goes along the path of least resistance, and since the others wanted her to help fight Xykon in Azure City... she did.
This is not an accurate picture of Haley. She did not get to be 2nd in command of the party by not taking the initiative. She did not become the apparent leader of the resistance by not taking the initiative. She has been the party scout, a position that requires initiative. About the only time we don't see her taking the initiative is with Elan, and there we see self-loathing appear, because she is too scared to try why she knows she should.

[Era]

SO freaking funny. I liked the last panel.:smallamused:

[Senko]

Your also overlooking Roy any movement outside the city would be (a) only her and Belkar and (b) dragging along the decaying corpse of her friend. Its not just Haley sneaking out of the city its Haley + Belkar trying to sneak out of the city hauling a cart with a decaying body on it. Even assuming they did manage it where would they go? She doesn't know where the others are or why they left and haven't contacted her. Honestly if I was Haley I'd be staying put as well because whatever the reason for her friends leaving was if she's in the city she know's they know where she is and here she has resources and allies to stay alive till they contact her. Of course if Celia can leave I'd ask her to drop by V and the others and find out what's going on.

Incidently is it just me or is it a little odd that Celia hasn't wondered why Haley was carrying around the Talisman she gave to Roy.

[FujinAkari]

Quite possibly. That is the basic plan of Lord Kubota for example, to pick up the pieces after the lich moves on. It is an idea in accord with all we know of Xykon.

David. Stop assuming Haley is psychic. Haley knows basically nothing about Xykon, so you can't use the information we as readers know about him to support her modivation.


The caves is not just one location. They have to be scattered locations, which, even in interconnected, are difficult to communicate between. Recall here that the idea is to hide, not to communicate with the others.

Part of hiding is watching your back for pursuit. You can bet dollars or donuts that Haley / the other resistance paid very close attention to the cave enterances to see if they were being followed. Thus, it is simply not logical to assume that the two forces were ignorant of one another.


Why would she assume something that guarantees she is going to lose. She can well fear this, but assume it? Most unlikely.

Ok, so she fears that they are dead. Semantics.


Look at friends and relatives of disaster victims. They sometimes refuse to accept the deaths even after they can touch the body. They keep hoping long beyond any reasonable time.

Yes, lets look at them. They hold out hope that their families are ok for a long time, and desparately hope someone contacts them. This is EXACTLY what Haley is doing. They don't drop everything and go to the disaster site, which is what you say Haley should be doing.

Thank you for supporting my argument :)


So she is supposed to do nothing instead of doing something that might help?

I would say leading the resistance movement and freeing the slaves is helping.


Which doesn't change her analysis. V can normally communicate by magic and V is not calling when s/he should be. The sky is very unusual. Could this be connected? I can check that by going a day's walk from the city. Why shouldn't I check? I haven't got anything exactly useful to do otherwise.

You are making amazing leaps of logic here. There are 1000 other reasons V may not be contacting her. To assume that some crazy sky funk is responsible for V not contacting her would be like my assuming that my boyfriend didn't call me because he is ACTUALLY a secret agent that has been dispatched to fight the nation's enemies and can't get to the phone.

Yes, there is a chance that that's true... but to assume it out of the blue?


Reason? Sure there is. She knows Xykon is an epic caster. Anything weird around him could be his fault. She doesn't know it is, but she can certainly suspect.

She can suspect. She can also suspect that Roy is following her around in spirit form. There just isn't any logic behind such a suspicion, at least to the point of actually leaving a moderately secure location in order to wander about in the wilderness waiting to be contacted.


More important, she doesn't need to suspect. She's like a cell phone user with interrupted coverage. She doesn't know that the big building is blocking coverage or the other party has hung up or... But one of her options is to move to a location where she has better coverage.

This assumes that she and V communicate magically on a regular basis and that she is well aware that interference can result from location, neither of which are true.

Your position is that Cloister must be preventing access to Azure City, and it is isn't a bad one. The trouble it, it ignores the fact that Celia, Roy, the supplies seen in the raid all managed to get in without so much as a line of explaination. Yes, some of these are easily explained, but if Cloister was prohibiting access, don't you think there would be SOME mention of it within... what... fifty comics?

The Giant informed us that Cloister prevents scrying three separate times, after all, although the first one was suitably vague.

[Ascension]

I think the dependence on Roy for travel is the kicker here. Haley can't leave the city because (being good) she wouldn't want to leave Belkar behind, and in order to take Belkar with her she would have to drag along Roy's body, which would go a LONG way towards inhibiting her stealth.

[David Argall]

Haley knows basically nothing about Xykon, so you can't use the information we as readers know about him to support her modivation.
See 414 where Roy expresses much the same opinion of Xykon.


Part of hiding is watching your back for pursuit. You can bet dollars or donuts that Haley / the other resistance paid very close attention to the cave enterances to see if they were being followed.
Not at all. When you are hidding, you don't want to be seen. Putting somebody where they can watch the cave entrances merely makes them easier to find. So you can avoid being surprised? So? If you are found, you are dead, period. If you wanted to fight, you wouldn't have run here. No, you want everybody to cower in the very back of the cave where they are most likely to be overlooked. That guard just makes it easier to find you.


Thus, it is simply not logical to assume that the two forces were ignorant of one another.
Two forces? There would have been twenty or two hundred forces at the end of the battle. The defenders were scattered and broken.


Ok, so she fears that they are dead. Semantics.
More than semantics. You assume they are dead, you make plans on that basis. You fear it, you often make plans based on their being alive.


Yes, lets look at them. They hold out hope that their families are ok for a long time, and desparately hope someone contacts them. This is EXACTLY what Haley is doing. They don't drop everything and go to the disaster site, which is what you say Haley should be doing.
Huh? What people are you thinking of? It's routine for kin to do exactly that, drop everything and go to the disaster site, despite knowing they can do nothing. The professionals routinely have to politely tell them to go home.


I would say leading the resistance movement and freeing the slaves is helping.
Is it? Haley tells Roy/us she thinks it is practically useless. Her attitude makes sense if she thinks she can't escape. She knows she could be wrong and she might as well do something. But if she can escape, why not? It offers hope.


There are 1000 other reasons V may not be contacting her. To assume that some crazy sky funk is responsible for V not contacting her would be like my assuming that my boyfriend didn't call me because he is ACTUALLY a secret agent that has been dispatched to fight the nation's enemies and can't get to the phone.
But you can't do anything about that. You can do something about the possibility your phone is not working. So you do make the effort to check the phone. Haley can't do anything about V being dead or something, but she can check to see if there is a problem on her end of the line, by leaving the city.


Yes, there is a chance that that's true... but to assume it out of the blue?
You continue to use "assume" here where Haley does not have to assume.
Indeed, you are trying to make Haley assume what is by your theory simply false, that she can't do anything to re-establish communication.


She can suspect. There just isn't any logic behind such a suspicion, at least to the point of actually leaving a moderately secure location in order to wander about in the wilderness waiting to be contacted.
So what else does she have to do with her time? If it works, she gets Roy back. Big gain. If it doesn't, she's lost a few days and she has a hundred of those.


This assumes that she and V communicate magically on a regular basis and that she is well aware that interference can result from location, neither of which are true.
Neither of these assumptions are necessary to the case. She does not need to have communicated regularly with V by magic. She barely needs to know more than that V can contact her by magic. And we know she was confident V would do that. Nor does she need to know that interference can result from location. She need only suspect that as a possibility that can be tested quickly and easily.


Your position is that Cloister must be preventing access to Azure City, and it is isn't a bad one. The trouble it, it ignores the fact that Celia, Roy, the supplies seen in the raid all managed to get in without so much as a line of explaination.
Roy of course has Epic Inside, and the boxes on the dock may have been there for months. Given that Haley used one for hiding, they may be empty. Celia is a more serious question, but there are ways for the plot to give her an excuse.


if Cloister was prohibiting access, don't you think there would be SOME mention of it within... what... fifty comics?
The Giant informed us that Cloister prevents scrying three separate times, after all, although the first one was suitably vague.
There has been a need for that to be mentioned. Both text and a little thinking tells us V was going to try to contact Haley. So text must tell us why this didn't happen. But text also tells us no physical rescue was attempted, so there is no need to tell us the city can't be entered.



I think the dependence on Roy for travel is the kicker here. Haley can't leave the city because (being good) she wouldn't want to leave Belkar behind, and in order to take Belkar with her she would have to drag along Roy's body, which would go a LONG way towards inhibiting her stealth.
This objection might apply to her permanently leaving the city. But if she merely wants to leave for a few days to test the idea that it's something about the city that is causing the lack of communication, Belkar can surely stand a few days alone in a corner with Roy.
But even if she does take Roy and Belkar along, they have already shown themselves well able to sneak around under such conditions.

[FujinAkari]

See 414 where Roy expresses much the same opinion of Xykon.

Haley is not present in 414, and she still isn't psychic!

<Snipping out a large amount of drivel that seems to be nothing but conflicting opinions>


Roy of course has Epic Inside, and the boxes on the dock may have been there for months. Given that Haley used one for hiding, they may be empty. Celia is a more serious question, but there are ways for the plot to give her an excuse.

Epic Inside (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) rather explicitly refers to scrying power, not movement in altered states of being.

I'm tired of arguing this with you. I have heard your argument and consider Celia to prove that your theory is bunk. Teleportation is available, or Celia couldn't have done it.

[John Campbell]

Celia didn't teleport; she was summoned. It's not quite the same thing.

We also don't know that she can leave now that she's there.

[FujinAkari]

Celia didn't teleport; she was summoned. It's not quite the same thing.

We also don't know that she can leave now that she's there.

As far as D&D rules are concerned, it is exactly the same thing. It is extradimensional movement from one area to another.

[John Campbell]

No. They're similar, but they're not the same. One is Conjuration (Teleportation) and the other's Conjuration (Summoning), for starters, and they're affected differently by other spells and effects (e.g. anticipate teleportation) because of that.

It's also worth noting that dimensional lock, while it explicitly prevents teleporting or plane shifting out of the locked area, explicitly does not prevent summoned creatures in the area from returning to their home planes.

[FujinAkari]

No. They're similar, but they're not the same. One is Conjuration (Teleportation) and the other's Conjuration (Summoning), for starters, and they're affected differently by other spells and effects (e.g. anticipate teleportation) because of that.

That is a very good point, I had forgotten the subtype :)


It's also worth noting that dimensional lock, while it explicitly prevents teleporting or plane shifting out of the locked area, explicitly does not prevent summoned creatures in the area from returning to their home planes.

I would argue that, since the rules say that dimensional lock "does not prevent creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell" then that strongly implies that it -does- prevent the summoning of creatures. There is no reason to note the exception about the -departure- of summoned creatures unless it -is- an exception.

[Niknokitueu]

Hey guys, apart from the fact that this is Rich's sandbox, and so spells (etc) may well work slightly differently to 'normal', you have managed to forget the difference between jumping (ie teleport) and being pulled (ie summon).

Not knowing where you are jumping to can lead to a world of pain.

Not knowing where you are being pulled to is obviously a lot less dangerous.

Whilst I am surprised that the amulet was able to find Celia in order to summon her (if you can excuse the mixed phrasing), there would be no problem with actually summoning her once so located.

As an extra, whether Azure City is on or off the grid does not matter when someone is brought in 'under' the grid (as it were).

Roy could reach it because he knew where to look, and could not be stopped from looking (epic inside -sic-).

Celia could reach it because she was dragged in by the amulet. Indeed, she could not have refused to be summoned even if she had wanted to.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Morgan Wick]

The way Celia's arrival is depicted, it not only makes intuitive sense that she would be able to arrive under the circumstances, it's exceedingly likely she won't be able to leave and it would still make sense. As depicted, it's almost as if Celia came from "inside" the Talisman. Think of wherever Celia was as being placed inside a bubble, and that bubble popping out inside Azure City. (The mechanics of it are a bit hard to describe in a plausible way, but...) Now, unless she can get inside a new talisman the same way she popped out of the old one, she's probably stuck unless Cloister doesn't prevent entering/leaving (unlikely).

[nybbler]

Yeah, you'd think we humans would be able to shoot lightening out of our fingers. Talk about a genetic failing!!

I can. But only on dry winter days. :-)

[vegetalss4]

Who wants to bet that Celia will say something that will break Roy's heart in the next strip?

i take the bet,
if you are right i will give you a, well i would have said a cookie but as we got no cookie smilie you can have a:roy: istead, if you are rigth that is, if you are wrong you give ME a :roy:
do you accept the terms?

[David Argall]

Haley is not present in 414, and she still isn't psychic!
She didn't have to be psychic to have talked with Roy on a daily basis on a great many subjects, including his opinions of Xykon. So an opinion Roy offers on Xykon is something we assume is known to Haley unless we have reason to suspect differently [Presumably Roy hasn't mentioned in Haley's presence just what he and Celia were doing. But Haley has a need to know about Xykon and it's hard to see why would not have told her just about everything he knew about the lich.]

You seem to be taking a position when you say "psychic" that Haley is ignorant of everything we can't prove she knows. But Haley is a practiced professional of her world, and that means a great deal of knowledge of things we have no idea how she learned them.



Epic Inside (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) rather explicitly refers to scrying power, not movement in altered states of being.
There is no reason to impose such a limit. If the heavens have epic power for A, the presumption is that they have epic power for B.


Teleportation is available, or Celia couldn't have done it.
Well, teleportation may not be available. It requires some knowledge of the target location and at the least a good deal of the city has changed. With no ability to scry, that makes teleport dangerous, even if possible.
As noted, Celia is summonsed, and thus has a precise target. So she has a much greater ability to enter.


since the rules say that dimensional lock "does not prevent creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell" then that strongly implies that it -does- prevent the summoning of creatures. There is no reason to note the exception about the -departure- of summoned creatures unless it -is- an exception.
Well, there is the reason that the editors of PH are by no means perfect, and are known to have used inferior language on a number of points. So claiming an ironclad case on the basis of implied language is excessive. It does seem the easier ruling that Dimensional Lock blocks all summonsing [but creatures exit at the end of the spell anyway], but the list of blocked spells really should include "summons" in that case. There are just too many summonsing spells to properly fit under miscellaneous.
But I deem the best explanation here is that our author does not let spell description get in the way of plot.

[teratorn]

Yeah, you'd think we humans would be able to shoot lightening out of our fingers. Talk about a genetic failing!!

When I was in Chile, in the Atacama desert, there were these small sparks that jumped from person to person, or from people to objects. In a dark room it was sort of impressive.

[John Campbell]

I would argue that, since the rules say that dimensional lock "does not prevent creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell" then that strongly implies that it -does- prevent the summoning of creatures. There is no reason to note the exception about the -departure- of summoned creatures unless it -is- an exception.

I don't think it's real clear either way. The spell fluff would seem to indicate that it should block summons' arrival, but consistency would then indicate that they couldn't depart, either - which they explicitly can. And there are no Conjuration (Summoning) spells among the examples of forbidden effects, which seems like an odd oversight, because they're a fairly large subgroup of the spells that fluff-wise work with planar travel.

The explicit statement that it doesn't interfere with the end of a summon looks to me like an ad hoc patch to forestall any thoughts of using dimensional anchor to turn a round/level summon into a minute/level one, or dimensional lock to turn a bunch of round/level summons into day/level summons. IME, it's not unusual for those to specifically forbid a problem interpretation without clarifying or addressing any of the reasons the problem interpretation arose or the further implications of the patch itself.

But, in any case, it's beside the point, because cloister isn't dimensional lock. I just brought it up to point out that, even with just canon spells, it's possible for an effect to allow Celia to return to the Plane of Air (or wherever she got summoned from), but not allow Haley to plane shift there or to teleport out (even if she had the means to do so otherwise).

Given a custom-designed spell, all we can really say from the evidence is that it's possible to summon an extraplanar creature into the effect area of the cloister. Whether it allows teleporting in, teleporting out, summons returning to their home plane, or even just walking in or out remains to be seen. I don't really have an opinion on it, though I suspect that if it were really practical to get out, Haley would at least be smuggling the less combat-capable refugees out, if she hadn't just already left herself.

[FujinAkari]

She didn't have to be psychic to have talked with Roy on a daily basis on a great many subjects, including his opinions of Xykon. So an opinion Roy offers on Xykon is something we assume is known to Haley unless we have reason to suspect differently [Presumably Roy hasn't mentioned in Haley's presence just what he and Celia were doing. But Haley has a need to know about Xykon and it's hard to see why would not have told her just about everything he knew about the lich.

You seem to be taking a position when you say "psychic" that Haley is ignorant of everything we can't prove she knows. But Haley is a practiced professional of her world, and that means a great deal of knowledge of things we have no idea how she learned them.

See, this is where we're different. You assume that Haley intuits that the weird sky is responcible for V not contacting her, intuits that taking a great risk in dragging Roy's corpse out of the city will let him do so, and claim her failure to do so PROVES that Cloister prohibits her from leaving.

Anything that will help your argument, you simply assume she knows, or should figure out. I am much more strict, I don't allow Haley to metagamely inherit any knowledge that any other character has ever been exposed to. If Haley cannot be demonstrated to know something, then I assume she doesn't. Arguments cannot be based on speculation, they need facts.


There is no reason to impose such a limit. If the heavens have epic power for A, the presumption is that they have epic power for B.

See, there you go again. Despite the fact that Eugene -explicitly says- that Epic Inside gives "Scrying Power to Spare" you are going to assume that it also extends to transdimensional travel, merely because it will help your argument. There is absolutely no evidence of this, and in fact it is quite illogical to assume that the heaven's epic quality extends to altered states of movement -after you've left heaven-.


Well, teleportation may not be available. It requires some knowledge of the target location and at the least a good deal of the city has changed. With no ability to scry, that makes teleport dangerous, even if possible.

Oh? So you are now changing your argument to match mine? That Cloister doesn't actually prohibit teleportation? Thank you, I accept your concession.


Given a custom-designed spell, all we can really say from the evidence is that it's possible to summon an extraplanar creature into the effect area of the cloister. Whether it allows teleporting in, teleporting out, summons returning to their home plane, or even just walking in or out remains to be seen. I don't really have an opinion on it, though I suspect that if it were really practical to get out, Haley would at least be smuggling the less combat-capable refugees out, if she hadn't just already left herself.

I agree, its hard to know for sure. My whole argument was with David, and his extremely round-about method of logic. His argument seems to boil down to: "Haley hasn't left the city, and therefore teleportation must be blocked." There are some connecting peices, of course, but really, he is (in my opinion) basing a huge amount of speculation on a rather easily explained event.

In any event, we'll have to wait and see, but for the record I don't think Cloister has any effect on teleportation.

[Alias]

Summoned or called?

If Celia was summoned she returns to whence she came when the spell expires, willing or no.

If called she may not be able to leave or must leave under her own power.

A summoned creature isn't really 'there' per se, whereas a called one is. If a creature is killed while summoned they simply go back from where they came. If killed while called they are permanently dead.

All this under standard rules. Under house rules all bets are off.

[Forum Explorer]

[QUOTE=David Argall;3921222]
This objection might apply to her permanently leaving the city. But if she merely wants to leave for a few days to test the idea that it's something about the city that is causing the lack of communication, Belkar can surely stand a few days alone in a corner with Roy.
QUOTE]

What are you talking about Belkar can't stand a few minutes without setting a tent on fire see # 157

Taking Belkar with her is dangerous for the same reason, he can't be trusted to be stealthy when carnage is available if he isn't:smallfurious:

[David Argall]

You assume that Haley intuits that the weird sky is responcible for V not contacting her, intuits that taking a great risk in dragging Roy's corpse out of the city will let him do so, and claim her failure to do so PROVES that Cloister prohibits her from leaving.
You continue to claim Haley has to know what she merely has to suspect.

Haley knew that V had not contacted her as expected.
Haley knew something weird had happened to the local sky.
Haley needs to know nothing further to suspect the two are related some way.


intuits that taking a great risk in dragging Roy's corpse out of the city
Great risk?? Haley is a high level rogue, vs 1st level hobs. She makes her hide check on a 1. We have seen her, Roy, and Belkar wandering the city without being noticed. It's a snap for her.


will let him do so, and claim her failure to do so PROVES that Cloister prohibits her from leaving.
But why would she fail to try? It is an action she can try that may pay a very big reward. Since she clearly didn't leave the city, that makes it rather silly that she didn't try, which means she can't leave the city.


If Haley cannot be demonstrated to know something, then I assume she doesn't.
But this is obviously false. We know she knows a massive number of things that she has not been demonstrated to know. [What's the name of her mom?]


Despite the fact that Eugene -explicitly says- that Epic Inside gives "Scrying Power to Spare" you are going to assume that it also extends to transdimensional travel, merely because it will help your argument.
Merely because the two cases are much the same. The heavens are known to be able to both scry and send spirits. The heavens can use epic power. So why should we assume they can only use it in the case of scry?


There is absolutely no evidence of this,
It is closer to say there is absolutely no evidence it doesn't apply.



and in fact it is quite illogical to assume that the heaven's epic quality extends to altered states of movement -after you've left heaven-.
Why? You are assuming different rules apply to the two powers, which on the face of it is illogical.


Oh? So you are now changing your argument to match mine? That Cloister doesn't actually prohibit teleportation?
Not at all. I am saying that even within your argument, it is more likely that teleportation is not possible than not.


he is (in my opinion) basing a huge amount of speculation on a rather easily explained event.
Well, that is correct, but the easily explained event is why she didn't leave the city, and the explanation is that she can't.



What are you talking about Belkar can't stand a few minutes without setting a tent on fire see # 157

Belkar has survived several months without killing a living soul, so it would seem the moj gives him enough motive not to set anything on fire while he waits for Haley to return.

[FujinAkari]

You continue to claim Haley has to know what she merely has to suspect.

Haley knew that V had not contacted her as expected.
Haley knew something weird had happened to the local sky.
Haley needs to know nothing further to suspect the two are related some way.

I agree that it is possible to suspect with this information, what I disagree with is that she does. You seem to assume that Haley will take two unique events and realize the implications of them, and from that realization come to the conclusion that she has to leave the city with 100% certainty. In other words, you seem to assume that it is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE for Haley to have considered any alternative to V's failure to contact her BUT "The sky changed color!"

Yes, she might realize the truth, or she might not. There are MANY possible explainations for it (V is dead or incapacitated, V is too far away to cast the spell, V's spell is failing for some uncontrolable reason.)

I see that and, since there is SOME chance (I consider it a very significant chance) that Haley may not realize the sky's shifting color has anything to do with V's inability to contact her, I am not going to attach any significance to the fact that she hasn't tried to leave the area to be contacted.

This is what I mean when I say your argument is based on rampant speculation, while mine is based on fact. If one of the hingepoints of my arguments are not supported by the comic / SRD, I don't assert that argument to be true. The comic / SRD does not support a conclusion of teleportation being locked down within Azure City (yet) and so I argue that it isn't.

[Eogan]

Sorry, Dave, but I just don't buy it.

1. Haley believes the darkness is caused by the rift. Actually, I think it is as well. I don't think the Cloister spell is actually affecting the sky at all, and there's no reason for her to connect the darkness with an inability for a scry spell to work.

2. There's no reason for her to assume that HER location has anything to do with Z's ability to cast a spell. You've used cellphones as an analogy, but give a cellphone to someone from Africa who knows NOTHING about cellphones; if they get nothing but static, they'll hand it back and just say, "It doesn't work." Coming up with solutions to problems requires significant understanding (or at least the belief of significant understanding) of the problem.

3. Haley's expecting to be rescued... by sea. You say taking a trip for a couple days outside the city would have no downside, but when you're lost and awaiting rescue, you STAY PUT! Stay exactly where the rescuers expect you to be. Being a couple days away when you get the call to come to the docks to be rescued is not a chance you take. In the meantime, staying in the city gives Haley the chance to at least save some people.

4. As mentioned, Haley either needs to take Belkar AND a corpse with her while she sneaks out of the city, or she needs to trust Belkar left to his own devices for a couple days. Not gonna happen.

Now this isn't to say that Cloister doesn't prevent mundane or even some forms of magical transport in and out of the city. In fact, I'm inclined to believe it does. I'm just saying that your arguments that Haley must have tried to escape the city when V didn't contact her are presumptive at best and wildly speculative at worst.

[Morgan Wick]

I agree that it is possible to suspect with this information, what I disagree with is that she does. You seem to assume that Haley will take two unique events and realize the implications of them, and from that realization come to the conclusion that she has to leave the city with 100% certainty. In other words, you seem to assume that it is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE for Haley to have considered any alternative to V's failure to contact her BUT "The sky changed color!"

DavidArgall's point is that she only needs to have considered that one alternative, and even if she's considered other alternatives, that doesn't preclude her from testing this one alternative. He seems to portray such a test as a simple little day trip and back, whereas you seem to portray it as a permanent departure.

But here's something that may bolster your point. Here's what we know Haley knows:
*"Haley knew that V had not contacted her as expected"... and she expected V to contact her the very next day, or at least very soon thereafter.
*"Haley knew something weird had happened to the local sky"... and we pretty much know that Xykon threw up the Cloister the night Haley was trapped there.

What if Haley takes those two facts, and concludes Xykon did something to slow or stop time? She has no way of thinking the effect would be any different if she left the city, and she then has some reason to believe that waiting for V (and completely disbanding the Resistance) is as easy as waiting for night to finally turn to day.

[Ave]

The cloister is already broken anyway.

[Carne]

DavidArgall's point is that she only needs to have considered that one alternative, and even if she's considered other alternatives, that doesn't preclude her from testing this one alternative. He seems to portray such a test as a simple little day trip and back, whereas you seem to portray it as a permanent departure.

The issue I have with this test, is that you'd have to believe that there is something interfering with the ability to come and go from the city in order to want to perform the test in the first place.

Working from the assumption that Haley doesn't have any idea that Cloister is active, nor that it prevents her from leaving the city... why would she test whether or not she can leave the city? If this is the case, she would have no reason to believe she can't leave the city, therefore we're left with the conclusion that she isn't leaving the city because she wants to stay.

To me, by far the most conclusive evidence that Haley doesn't believe that there is anything interfering with the ability to come and go is that she did NOT exclaim "How did you get here? I thought travel into and out of the city was impossible!" when Celia appeared.

As for David's chain of reasoning, I think he's overlooking the one vital piece of evidence we've been presented with time and time again: that that the main characters will not think rationally, and will do something we might regard as stupid in order to serve the greater Plot.

[Yendor]

Firstly, there's no evidence the sky made a sudden change, with or without Cloister. Haley says the rift is blotting out the sun, and it's hardly likely that sprung up overnight. Far more probable is that it's been growing gradually over the last four months, and only more recently has become large enough to cause the darkness.

Secondly, Celia's talisman fits the description of the Refuge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/refuge.htm) spell, which is a Teleportation effect. So that surely can't be blocked.

And for the record, it's Durkon Haley would be expecting, not V. Even before splitting with the group, Haley wasn't certain V was still alive.

[Andorax]

4. As mentioned, Haley either needs to take Belkar AND a corpse with her while she sneaks out of the city, or she needs to trust Belkar left to his own devices for a couple days. Not gonna happen.


I'd say this is the strongest argument by far. Could Haley get out? Almost certainly. Could she get back in again? Tough, but doable.

But to leave Belkar behind without a keeper? Not a good idea. She even hauls him along on raids, despite his inability to fight hobgoblins effectively...I'd say most likely so she can keep an eye on him!

Besides, you need to also consider that for the first few days, she likely convinced herself that "rescue was on the way" or that "Xykon will just leave".

After that time, as rescue became less likely, the probability that leaving and being contacted also went down. Being contacted the next day, or the day after that, made sense and was likely....but after a week of not being contacted, what are the odds that if you DID leave, that day in particular would be the day they tried again, after failing repeatedly, to contact you?

[Morgan Wick]

The issue I have with this test, is that you'd have to believe that there is something interfering with the ability to come and go from the city in order to want to perform the test in the first place.

Working from the assumption that Haley doesn't have any idea that Cloister is active, nor that it prevents her from leaving the city... why would she test whether or not she can leave the city? If this is the case, she would have no reason to believe she can't leave the city, therefore we're left with the conclusion that she isn't leaving the city because she wants to stay.

To me, by far the most conclusive evidence that Haley doesn't believe that there is anything interfering with the ability to come and go is that she did NOT exclaim "How did you get here? I thought travel into and out of the city was impossible!" when Celia appeared.

As for David's chain of reasoning, I think he's overlooking the one vital piece of evidence we've been presented with time and time again: that that the main characters will not think rationally, and will do something we might regard as stupid in order to serve the greater Plot.

The argument is about why V/Durkon hasn't contacted her, not whether she can come and go.

[FujinAkari]

Firstly, there's no evidence the sky made a sudden change, with or without Cloister. Haley says the rift is blotting out the sun, and it's hardly likely that sprung up overnight. Far more probable is that it's been growing gradually over the last four months, and only more recently has become large enough to cause the darkness.

Precisely. There was no permanent visible change (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) when Cloister was cast. Thats why I consider it so improbable that Haley will attach significance to the fact that the sky gradually changed color over the course of three months with the fact V can't contact her.

Thanks for saying this Yendor, I'd been trying to say something similar for awhile, but it never came out right :)


The argument is about why V/Durkon hasn't contacted her, not whether she can come and go.

No it isn't. The argument is -very much- whether she can come and go. Everyone KNOWS that V can't contact Haley due to Cloister, that has been stated in the comic explicitly.

David is arguing that the only reason Haley hasn't left the city is because Cloister must be preventing physical (and magical) movement, and I disagree.

[Morgan Wick]

Precisely. There was no visible change (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) when Cloister was cast. Thats why I consider it so improbable that Haley will attach significance to the fact that the sky gradually changed color over the course of three months with the fact V can't contact her.

You notice the fires do appear to die down virtually instantly, though, which gives a veneer of some sort of tint coming over the city. It was night when Xykon threw up Cloister, it's not like a night-to-night change would be that noticable. Yes, the sky appears purplish in #510 on, but still, that could just be the sun hitting it. (I didn't think there was any difference between the sky in these strips and the sky in #484 until you pointed it out.)

Part of the problem I have with "it's the rift discoloring the sky, not Cloister" is that I think of "the rift" being one of the ones buttressed by the gates. And a rift much larger than the one in the Dungeon of Dorukan, unprotected by a gate? Why hasn't the Snarl wiped everyone out already in that case?


No it isn't. The argument is -very much- whether she can come and go. Everyone KNOWS that V can't contact Haley due to Cloister, that has been stated in the comic explicitly.

David is arguing that the only reason Haley hasn't left the city is because Cloister must be preventing physical (and magical) movement, and I disagree.

I wasn't clear. What I meant was that the argument was about what Haley would think was the reason V/Durkon hadn't contacted her. Haley wouldn't be leaving to find out if she could come and go, she'd be leaving to see if she could be contacted by V/Durkon that way. She would have no real reason to believe that either of those two factors would also be preventing her from leaving.

I've been reading the argument as: David thinks Haley should have, and possibly has tried to, leave the city to "improve her cell phone reception" to use his words. He's not necessarily saying Haley would be leaving the city for good, on that trip. (Nor would Haley having attempted to do so even for 24 hours necessarily preclude the Cloister not affecting movement; remember that V has resorted to custom spells that take a long time to prepare to check on Haley, so it's not certain that anyone would think to scry on her in any specific 24-hour period.) I've been reading you as saying there's no reason for her to decide to embark on that experiment, since there are several other explanations (from her point of view) why V and/or Durkon haven't contacted her.

Even if it started as an argument on whether Cloister restricts movement, your argument hasn't been specific to that argument, and as a result the argument seems to have drifted.

[FujinAkari]

You notice the fires do appear to die down virtually instantly, though, which gives a veneer of some sort of tint coming over the city.

I actually see the fires as being exactly the same before and after, and only a temporary yellow glow symbolizing the casting of Cloister, which Haley may not even have seen depending on which way she is looking (Cloister seems to be originating from behind the castle, and it doesn't appear to envelop the city, since it doesn't interfere with our view of any of the buildings)


Part of the problem I have with "it's the rift discoloring the sky, not Cloister" is that I think of "the rift" being one of the ones buttressed by the gates. And a rift much larger than the one in the Dungeon of Dorukan, unprotected by a gate? Why hasn't the Snarl wiped everyone out already in that case?

The same reason the Snarl didn't wipe everyone out when NONE of the rifts were protected by a gate: he couldn't fit through.

As long as one gate stands, it helps keep the rifts blocked... I think... if ALL 5 fell, then the resulting "snap-back" would break the prison around the Snarl... I think.

Its not really said though, thats my understanding.

[David Argall]

OK, let's try a different approach. What makes more sense. Haley is effectively locked into the city and can't get out? Or that she could have wandered out a hundred days ago, and the party would all be back together again? Do you really deem Haley so stupid? The joke isn't funny with Celia and would be worse with Haley.
Our plot just works better if we say the spell [or something] keeps Haley in the city.


I agree that it is possible to suspect with this information, what I disagree with is that she does. You seem to assume that Haley will take two unique events and realize the implications of them, and from that realization come to the conclusion that she has to leave the city with 100% certainty.
Again you are trying to insist on certainity when there is no need for it. I have denied it several times, and shown in detail it is just not required. She need only realize the possibility for the idea to become a serious option, and the more she would look, the clearer it is she would try it.


In other words, you seem to assume that it is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE for Haley to have considered any alternative to V's failure to contact her BUT "The sky changed color!"
Again, you insist on calling a possibility a certainity. Of course she may have considered other possibilities, but none of those suggested seem to forbid her leaving the city for a day or two to see if she can be contacted away from the city.


Yes, she might realize the truth, or she might not. There are MANY possible explainations for it (V is dead or incapacitated, V is too far away to cast the spell, V's spell is failing for some uncontrolable reason.)
And none of these are anything she can do anything about. Checking location is something she can try. If there is a problem with the phone call, you check your phone no matter how much you think the problem is at the other end. You can control that. Haley can control location, so she would want to try a different location.


I see that and, since there is SOME chance (I consider it a very significant chance) that Haley may not realize the sky's shifting color has anything to do with V's inability to contact her, I am not going to attach any significance to the fact that she hasn't tried to leave the area to be contacted.
But this is obviously wrong. In essence you would be arguing that since there is some chance the thief did not notice the open door, we should reject any theory based on the thief entering and exiting that way.


If one of the hingepoints of my arguments are not supported by the comic / SRD, I don't assert that argument to be true. The comic / SRD does not support a conclusion of teleportation being locked down within Azure City (yet) and so I argue that it isn't.
But again, we know there are scads of things not [yet] supported by the comic. We don't argue these things don't exist or that the author has done anything wrong when they come onto stage. They are treated as if they had been merely offstage all along.



1. Haley believes the darkness is caused by the rift. Actually, I think it is as well. I don't think the Cloister spell is actually affecting the sky at all, and there's no reason for her to connect the darkness with an inability for a scry spell to work.
There is not sufficient reason for her to conclude that. There is quite sufficient reason to suspect that. [We suspect that any two events that happen at the same time are related, and the more major the events, the more we suspect that. We will often dismiss this as just a co-incidence, but but first we ask if there is a connection.] And all we need here is that she suspects it and that she can test the idea.


2. There's no reason for her to assume that HER location has anything to do with Z's ability to cast a spell. Coming up with solutions to problems requires significant understanding (or at least the belief of significant understanding) of the problem.
And Haley has that.
Haley lives in a D&D world, and the rules give a variety of location-based reasons a spell might not work. Haley has lived with those rules all her life. She has also long associated with a wizard, a very verbal wizard who loves to lecture, which means Haley should be assumed to have a basic knowledge of the rules of her world.


You've used cellphones as an analogy, but give a cellphone to someone from Africa who knows NOTHING about cellphones; if they get nothing but static, they'll hand it back and just say, "It doesn't work."
But a-they would first try to put it closer to their ear, among other things. And require no more than a couple of sentences of instruction before the idea of moving it to a better location becomes an option.
b-If they can't hear you talking for some reason, they do automatically consider the idea of moving.


3. Haley's expecting to be rescued... by sea. You say taking a trip for a couple days outside the city would have no downside, but when you're lost and awaiting rescue, you STAY PUT! Stay exactly where the rescuers expect you to be.
This is the advice of the experts. It is very obviously frequently not followed. Maybe you should stay put, but quite often you don't, and often enough for good reason. [For example, if you are just a few yards from safety, staying put turns a minor nuisance to a major worry. Staying put is good for when safety is not close, or when there is a good chance you may be confused about the direction, but it is far from automaticly wise.] We can't assume Haley is going to follow that advice.

Nor does there seem to be good reason to. Staying quiet for the first day or two, that we know she was planning. But staying put is based on the idea somebody is coming to rescue you. It's worthless, indeed harmful, if they are not. Once she has reason to doubt he is going to call, the girl should not be hanging by the phone all day. After a day or two, Haley has that doubt, and needs to consider ways to improve her situation.


Being a couple days away when you get the call to come to the docks to be rescued is not a chance you take.
This is a trivial risk. Essentially you are saying she will only be contacted an hour before the rescue will actually happen and that it can only happen at at a particular location. In fact, there is likely to be a great amount of advance warning, and it is likely to be a great deal easier to rescue Haley if she leaves the city. In the city, the rescuers need to avoid 20,000 hobgoblins. 5-10 miles away, there may be zero.


4. As mentioned, Haley either needs to take Belkar AND a corpse with her while she sneaks out of the city, or she needs to trust Belkar left to his own devices for a couple days. Not gonna happen.
As noted, Haley has had no problem hauling Belkar and corpse around. So she should be able to manage leaving with them. And Belkar has managed to keep sane for nearly 4 months now. The idea that she couldn't trust him alone for a few days just does not fit the evidence.
So Haley has a choice of two annoyances, not of two insurmountable barriers.



What if Haley takes those two facts, and concludes Xykon did something to slow or stop time? She has no way of thinking the effect would be any different if she left the city, and she then has some reason to believe that waiting for V (and completely disbanding the Resistance) is as easy as waiting for night to finally turn to day.
Every spell has an area of effect. There is an area it affects and the larger area it does not. So Haley would have to assume that whatever has happened, she has at least a chance of escaping it by leaving the city.



The issue I have with this test, is that you'd have to believe that there is something interfering with the ability to come and go from the city in order to want to perform the test in the first place.
Haley does know something is interfering with the ability to contact her. The interference with the ability to come and go would merely be a discovery.



Working from the assumption that Haley doesn't have any idea that Cloister is active, nor that it prevents her from leaving the city... why would she test whether or not she can leave the city?
Because she doesn't test that. She wants to test whether she can be contacted once she is out of the city [and by all we know, she can be].



she did NOT exclaim "How did you get here? I thought travel into and out of the city was impossible!" when Celia appeared.
Haley has a lot of other questions to ask. However, Haley would only know that she can't physically exit the city. She might well suspect that some or all magic won't work either, but she can't know that. Indeed, that appears to be knowledge even a high level wizard would not have. She has no reason to think it impossible [tho we do].



the main characters will not think rationally, and will do something we might regard as stupid in order to serve the greater Plot.
But it is easier to serve the plot here by having exit blocked. Several posters have suggested the idea of Haley and Belkar exiting the city and just wandering until they find a high level cleric. It is easier to plug this hole by saying exit was impossible than to explain that for this or that reason, she didn't want to do that.



Firstly, there's no evidence the sky made a sudden change, with or without Cloister. Haley says the rift is blotting out the sun, and it's hardly likely that sprung up overnight. Far more probable is that it's been growing gradually over the last four months, and only more recently has become large enough to cause the darkness.
It has been there long enough for Haley to only be guessing when she talks about morning. And there is also no evidence of their being a gradual change. But we do have a tradition of magic being "magic word", and it happens right away. Xykon says "Cloister" and the city is off the grid that minute. Someone says "Teleport" and they are at the new location immediately. So our presumption would be that the effect was immediately visible.


Secondly, Celia's talisman fits the description of the Refuge spell, which is a Teleportation effect. So that surely can't be blocked.
Since Dimensional Lock blocks teleport and similiar spells, it probably can be. But that does not impact our Haley situation. She has no known access to such a way to exit the city.



But to leave Belkar behind without a keeper? Not a good idea. She even hauls him along on raids, despite his inability to fight hobgoblins effectively...I'd say most likely so she can keep an eye on him!
Belkar is a very good killer of undead, even if he prefers live victims. And the city is likely crawling with them. So he is worth the trouble to haul around even if he just sits out most fights.


after a week of not being contacted, what are the odds that if you DID leave, that day in particular would be the day they tried again, after failing repeatedly, to contact you?
They were a bloodly sight better than if she stayed in the city. That Haley would know. We would know the odds were close to 100%. She just needs to know the odds in the city look to be on the low side of 1%. The odds outside, a lot of guess, but they have got to be better.

[Morgan Wick]

The same reason the Snarl didn't wipe everyone out when NONE of the rifts were protected by a gate: he couldn't fit through.

As long as one gate stands, it helps keep the rifts blocked... I think... if ALL 5 fell, then the resulting "snap-back" would break the prison around the Snarl... I think.

Its not really said though, thats my understanding.

The rift over Azure City, if it is responsible for the discoloration, is a LOT bigger than any of the rifts were when none were protected by a gate.

Another problem I have with the idea of the rift being responsible is the idea of it being a hole, yet somehow solid, which is comparatively simpleminded of me but does raise the question that (in the unlikely scenario that the Cloister only restricts scrying) it's NOT the Cloister that would prevent Haley from coming and going, but the rift (much like the argument surrounding the discoloration).

We haven't even been told that Cloister is responsible for V's problems as directly as some have implied. "Cloister" has only been mentioned by name in #484, and V only really speculates on what's causing his/her problems.

[John Campbell]

Incidentally, teleporting within the cloister is certainly possible; we've seen Tsukiko do it. On the other hand, she's a card-carrying member of Team Evil, so she may be permitted to do things that are forbidden in general. But it's not, in any case, a dimensional lock-style blanket prevention of any plane-crossing magic.

[Morgan Wick]

Argall posted when I was posting/struggling with a slow connection, so let's take some of these points on.

First, let's consider the case of whether or not Haley needs to be 100% certain, or to have only entertained the possibility, of the sky and the lack of contact being related. I don't think FujinAkari is really trying to imply that Haley needs to be 100% certain/uncertain, he/she has just forgotten a key part of his/her argument. Namely, whether or not Haley would dismiss the possibility that she needs to leave if she thought of it. By "dismiss" I don't mean the chances of it being the case have to be 0%, just "not bloody likely" and surpassed by other possibilities.

Meanwhile, though, Argall seems to be indicating that even the smallest chance is chance enough for Haley to decide to leave. I think the real answer is somewhere in the middle, and determined in no small part by Haley's own personality (not to mention how much she panicked when she wasn't contacted after the first few days).

That said, if you had said this right from the start:

Nor does there seem to be good reason to. Staying quiet for the first day or two, that we know she was planning. But staying put is based on the idea somebody is coming to rescue you. It's worthless, indeed harmful, if they are not. Once she has reason to doubt he is going to call, the girl should not be hanging by the phone all day. After a day or two, Haley has that doubt, and needs to consider ways to improve her situation.
...you could have had a much easier time with your argument. This essentially points out that there are only three possible options:

1. Haley got involved with (or began to start) the Resistance within the first few days after #484, and so was either too preoccupied with her own commitments to attempt to leave, or decided she wouldn't forsake Azure City even to return to her friends. (The idea that something was preventing her from being contacted may not have occured to her if she was impulsive enough to panic and assume the worst.)
2. Haley was prevented from leaving by non-magical means; for example, if "last week's jailbreak" in #514 refers to Haley's own. (This assumes #1 applied or #3 did not apply once she got out. The former seems very likely to me.)
3. Haley attempted to leave even if she had assumed the worst, because she would have thought it was not safe to stay in the city where Xykon and Redcloak's goons are, and she would want to keep the quest going somehow. (That she decided to attempt to stop Xykon and Redcloak from ripping open Soon's Gate is self-evidently false since she doesn't seem that concerned about it now, and is really #1 anyway.)

Had she thought it was safe enough to stay, she would probably want to stay and fight, and this lapses back into #1. If she thought it was safe enough to stay but wasn't interested in fighting, what reason does she have for staying? She still has a reason to leave, hundreds of reasons in fact, which she would be constantly hiding from. Even if it's relatively safe, there's no way it's not safer outside.

In the city, [Haley and Belkar, let alone] the rescuers need to avoid 20,000 hobgoblins. 5-10 miles away, there may be zero.

Which means either Haley has already tried to leave regardless of why V/Durkon haven't contacted her, or she's been kept from doing so, either by her own sense of obligation or by outside forces.

In other words, this whole argument is moot and really only pivots on factors we can only speculate on.

(There is a fourth option: Haley feared Belkar trying to kill her if it wasn't an automatic activation of the Mark of Justice. On Haley's end, she'd have a lot more people trying to kill her AND Belkar inside the city; on Belkar's end, what does he have to gain by killing Haley if he's in the middle of nowhere and has to lug Roy's body around?)

I still want to touch on:

Every spell has an area of effect. There is an area it affects and the larger area it does not. So Haley would have to assume that whatever has happened, she has at least a chance of escaping it by leaving the city.

First, I don't know if such a time stop spell might affect each person in the area of effect. Second, Haley wouldn't know the exact range of the spell. Third, I was worried that a universal time stop that I was considering would really not have much of an effect, that it would stop time for V/Elan/Durkon as well, and thus wouldn't serve much of an explanation for Haley's purposes (and they are only Haley's purposes, this is not a serious proposal for what's going on). Thanks for plugging the hole for me!

[Senko]

I've just read the latest posts and I feel there's a few things that people are overlooking in regards the Haley leaving/staying situation some of which have actually been posted by others.

1) Why would Haley leave in order to allow V a better chance to contact her when as far as she know's V could be dead. The original plan involved the ship staying long enough for her to board and when the ship had left she'd expect to be contacted by Durkan or V when they could. In 484 her exact words where "Durkan know's the plan. He'll contact us magically-and Vaarsuvius too-as soon as he's able." So maybe she's thinking that they haven't been able to yet because of problems on their end.

2) Aside from that bright flash when he cast the spell which Haley mightn't have even seen there's been no evidence that a spell was even cast much less anything that would have given her a hint of what it does. Basic magical rules is one thing but this I can't see a thief realizing that a spell has been cast to block all communication from a mysterious flash of light in a fire filled sky.

3) Maybe Haley did leave the city to allow better contact chances the following afterall could have easily happeend. First V casts telepathy or equivilent several times and fails to contact her going off to think about it. Haley leaves the city. V decides a powerful magical spell is blocking communication and starts developing a new one. Several day's later Haley returns having decided its not the location. A few weeks after that V tries the new spell she's developed only to have it fail as well.

4) Its definately known she thinks the rift is responsbile for the darkness (whether that's true or not is irrelevent) in 512 she say's "At least I think its morning. Sort of tough to tell these day's. What with the giant swirling rift that blots out the sun." So its entirely possible she doesn't know a cloister spell has been cast.

5) Yes spells have an area of effect (which can cover entire continents) but they often usually have a duration so she could just as easily assume she can wait it out as she can outrun it.

6) As for her leaving to find a high level cleric I honestly can't see her doing that. The main city in this area has just been overun by a large army if I was in her situation I'd feel it pretty safe to assume most high level clerics capable of raising my front is either dead in the defence or on the ship evacuation. As for those in other cities they may have either also been overrun since the armies not moving on OR needing to fight to defend the city and secondly that they would charge a large amount of money to raise a stranger which I don't have on me.

[Terbovus]

C'mon. In Celia's defense:

-In closing, we call Mr. Phil Rodriguez to summarize the case for the defense:

:elan: :But there's no little smiley face thing for Phil. Can I do it?

Um...All right...

:elan: :*Ahem*

Don't blame the defendant for splatting the hero;
She really did think his voltage was non-zero.

Thank you, Elan. Mr. Rodriguez couldn't have said it any better (gods help us all).

hehe, this made me laugh. :smallsmile: :smallsmile: :smallsmile:

lots of very in-depth long posts here guys, remember its a fun comic - none of it is 'fact' or 'truth' - its a comic! And Rich has said repeatedly that he's happy to ignore the rules when plot demands.

Still, I would note that I see no reason for Hayley to think anything other than that V, Durkon and Elan are safely over the horizon - She and Belkar saw them sail off safely, and there is no suggestion that Xykon sent off any pursuing horde. I would guess that she got stuck waiting (and cos of the cart/corpse/belkar factor) and by the time she realised that V couldn't contact her was too tied up with the resistance, who obviously need a bit of PC-level support as they are *ahem* a bit clueless.

Good on her - I reckon it lives up to her fundamental goodness that she doesn't senak off to be with Elan even though I'm sure she'd love to, and hangs out to help the oppressed Azurites. Yay! Go Haley the Heroine! :smallsmile:

Poor Roy though - this is turning into a bit of a greek tragedy :smalleek:, lets have things go right for a bit now please, Giant :smalltongue:

[warmachine]

Celia wears draw string pants! Ugly.

[Yendor]

And so Haley hasn't tried to leave the city. Next?

[FujinAkari]

And so Haley hasn't tried to leave the city. Next?

Fujin* 1 : David 0 (most of are arguments never have a clear winner, I'm claiming this one :P)

* No disrespect is intended to everyone who agreed with me... its just that David and I argue so bloody often...