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Frosty
2008-02-08, 12:41 PM
When a Changeling shifts, the change is not merely an illusion. He/she actually feels different. But, exactly how much internal plumbling is changed? Can a male Changeling shift to a female form and get pregnant? What if he shifts back to male form while pregnant?

Hell, what species can a Changeling get impregnated by? If one shifts into the form of a bear (can a changeling do that?) can she bear cubs?

Guildorn Tanaleth
2008-02-08, 12:46 PM
Based on what I've read about changelings on these boards, it's a complete physical transformation, so if you shift into a form that can get pregnant, you can get pregnant. However, I think that the book that covers changelings (Sharn: City of Towers?) explicitly states that while a changeling is pregnant, (s)he can't change form.

You should probably get confirmation from someone who's read the book, though.

Frosty
2008-02-08, 01:03 PM
Does anyone know how big of a transformation changelings can handle? I mean, it's not Wild-Shape to be sure, since you don't get any stat changes, and you don't gain any natural attacks or anything. But can you actually make yourself look and feel like a wolf or bear for example?

Imagine a Changeling Druid wildshaped into a Fleshraker/other cool animal, and then shifted back into human form. All the bonuses, and you can talk to your allies!

Learnedguy
2008-02-08, 01:18 PM
Does anyone know how big of a transformation changelings can handle? I mean, it's not Wild-Shape to be sure, since you don't get any stat changes, and you don't gain any natural attacks or anything. But can you actually make yourself look and feel like a wolf or bear for example?

Imagine a Changeling Druid wildshaped into a Fleshraker/other cool animal, and then shifted back into human form. All the bonuses, and you can talk to your allies!

Well, the changeling characteristics only let you change into humanoids in your size category, so I'm somewhat uncertain if that'll work.

Nero24200
2008-02-08, 01:32 PM
The change a changeling can undergo has the same limits as the Disguise Self Spell. It's only minor changes, such as a different skin colour, eye colour, moving one or two facial features a little. What defines as a "little" change can be interpated though, some might consider growing a tail or horns a bit too much.

To my knowledge, changlings can change gender, and if they do change into female, they -can- get pregnant. They can still shapchange whilst pregnant, but not into a male during the pregnancy.

Remember that the change is appearences only, so changing into somthing in an attempt to gain it's abilities won't work this way.

Frosty
2008-02-08, 01:53 PM
Right. The question is 1) What constitutes a minor change and 2) since you can only disguise yourself as a humanoid your size, can you disguise yourself as a humanoid after wildshaping?

alchemyprime
2008-02-08, 02:02 PM
I'd say no, a wild shaped changling cannot use change shape, just as a wild shaped dwarf can't weild his urgosh or craft a warhammer (no thumbs unless you're a monkey). So you know, i think it just goes that such an ability is part of changeling physiology, not bear/cow/racoon/animal physiology.

I also hold that when a changeling becomes something with a natural attack, they don't have the musculature or bone to do it. Like a mind flayer (i've allowed it). The tentacles are no stronger than lip muscles. Not good for grappling. A changeling that looks like a warforged is not really metal, just textured and colored correctly.


Though that brings up the question of changeling liches/vampires. Can they still shapechange? Or do they become undead versions of humanoids.

TRM
2008-02-08, 02:03 PM
Minor Shape Change (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as through using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.




Disguise Self
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Trickery 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.

If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.

A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.

I wouldn't be sure what to rule. The wording making the changes real (rather than illusionary) messes with the effects of disguise self because no real effect (such as natural weapons, etc...) is normally available through disguise self.
I would rule that no tangible benefit can be receive through the transformation; so if you change your fingernails into inch-long claws, they're still only as strong as normal fingernails. But the wording, imho, is ambiguous and confusing.

In the case of getting pregnant, I would rule that the changeling could change into a female then get pregnant. But I'd say that the baby would die due to lack of sustenance when (s)he switched back to male and would have to be removed by surgery/magic to avoid the death of the "host".
(Assuming the, now male, changeling doesn't retain the special organs that are needed to keep a growing baby alive.)

nargbop
2008-02-08, 02:18 PM
Check the Book of Erotic Fantasy for a few more rules on pregnancy. Some groups and DMs don't want to touch the BoEF , but it's got some straightforward rules if you want to use them.

Admiral Squish
2008-02-08, 02:19 PM
All changelings can father children, and all changelings can get pregnant. However, if they do get pregnant, they can't change into a male form, though they can disguise their pregnancy to a point, and still shift between female forms. 50% of the time a child born to a changeling parent is a changeling, however if they take the racial emulation feat, they can make the child always be of the other race their genes are toting.

As for wildshaped shifting? Maybe between specific representatives of the race you're shaped to? But something as major and humanoid voicebox, tongue, teeth and lips would be a bit much. So, you could wildshape into a dog, and minor shape change into a different kind of dog. MAYBE a wolf, but that's pushing it.

TRM
2008-02-08, 02:30 PM
All changelings can father children, and all changelings can get pregnant. However, if they do get pregnant, they can't change into a male form, though they can disguise their pregnancy to a point, and still shift between female forms. 50% of the time a child born to a changeling parent is a changeling, however if they take the racial emulation feat, they can make the child always be of the other race their genes are toting.

Is that official from an Eberron book, or personal interpretation? :smallconfused:

Frosty
2008-02-08, 02:32 PM
You cannot change your body type.

What exactly does that mean? Under the Disguise skill, you can actually make yourself look like members of another species even, but the bigger the change, the bigger the penatly to the skill check.

So can a Changeling use Disguise Self to only emulate (visual and tactile and audio and olfactory emulations included) races that are humanoid or relatively close to humanoid in appearance, or can he/she Disguise (at a penalty) to wierder races?

Can a Changeling grow wings and look like a Raptoran? I think he could, but the wings are not good enough to fly with.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-08, 02:39 PM
Is that official from an Eberron book, or personal interpretation? :smallconfused:
That's from Races of Eberron, almost word for word. A lot of people, especially Eberron fanatics, don't like the book, but I take the parts about Changeling biology, at least, at face value.

And Disguise Self is pretty explicit, I think. You can change your appearance to things of your current approximate body-shape within the height and weight limits given in the spell. This also effectively gives you a bonus to your disguise check, which is then penalized for how far it is from your normal appearance as a Changeling of a particular age and gender.

kamikasei
2008-02-08, 02:39 PM
What exactly does that mean? Under the Disguise skill, you can actually make yourself look like members of another species even, but the bigger the change, the bigger the penatly to the skill check.

So can a Changeling use Disguise Self to only emulate (visual and tactile and audio and olfactory emulations included) races that are humanoid or relatively close to humanoid in appearance, or can he/she Disguise (at a penalty) to wierder races?

Can a Changeling grow wings and look like a Raptoran? I think he could, but the wings are not good enough to fly with.

I would interpret it as meaning you can't alter your body plan, such as by giving yourself extra limbs, or wings, or six fingers on each hand, or two heads, or a hole through your torso.

Admiral Squish
2008-02-08, 02:40 PM
Is that official from an Eberron book, or personal interpretation? :smallconfused:

From races of eberron. It's under changeling reproduction in the changeling life section.

Frosty
2008-02-08, 03:46 PM
I would interpret it as meaning you can't alter your body plan, such as by giving yourself extra limbs, or wings, or six fingers on each hand, or two heads, or a hole through your torso.

Having an extra finger doesn't seem like that big of a change...

kamikasei
2008-02-08, 04:39 PM
Having an extra finger doesn't seem like that big of a change...

No, but I figure it's of a kind with sprouting an extra limb, and would fall under "body plan". The intent of the rule is presumably to avoid extra arms, or wings, or other potentially highly abusive shapechanges, so it wouldn't be worth fighting over in a game.

Frosty
2008-02-08, 04:43 PM
If the wings aren't functional, what's the hoopla?

Admiral Squish
2008-02-08, 05:14 PM
Wouldn't changing gender be less 'minor' than growing another finger?

Kyeudo
2008-02-08, 05:17 PM
Here is the wierder thing about changlings. They can become hermaphrodites at will. This means a pair of changlings could get each other pregnant at the same time.

Changlings have some serious potential for sexual deviancy of the most extreme kinds.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 05:20 PM
Changlings have some serious potential for sexual deviancy of the most extreme kinds.

You're just scratchin' the surface, there.
Consider what even a slight change to the internal musculature of any given orifice could accomplish.

Admiral Squish
2008-02-08, 05:26 PM
You're just scratchin' the surface, there.
Consider what even a slight change to the internal musculature of any given orifice could accomplish.

One word: fangs. That's all I'm sayin'...

Reinboom
2008-02-08, 05:29 PM
This thread has convinced me that being a changeling would be a wonderful thing...

Frosty
2008-02-08, 05:34 PM
This thread has convinced me that being a changeling would be a wonderful thing...

+1 :smallbiggrin:

It's a wonder Changeling Beguilers don't rule Sharn.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 05:36 PM
This thread has convinced me that being a changeling would be a wonderful thing...
Well, duh. I'd never leave the bedroom.


Changeling Beguilers don't rule Sharn.
That's exactly what they want you to think.

Collin152
2008-02-08, 05:39 PM
+1 :smallbiggrin:

It's a wonder Changeling Beguilers don't rule Sharn.

They do, you just don't know that yet.

Note, changelings are the reason villages sell mirrors. Wouldn't you be entertained if you had a mirror and the changeling's powers?

kamikasei
2008-02-08, 05:43 PM
Wouldn't changing gender be less 'minor' than growing another finger?

Yes, but for some reason it's specifically mentioned as something they can do, despite being tremendously more thorough than any other change they can perform.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-08, 05:44 PM
They do, you just don't know that yet.

Note, changelings are the reason villages sell mirrors. Wouldn't you be entertained if you had a mirror and the changeling's powers?


Oh, definitely :smallamused:

Frosty
2008-02-08, 05:44 PM
I mean seriously, with all the gossip they have access to, Changelings should be ruling Sharn. If you're a Changeling and a prostitute. You *will* have blackmail material. You can band together with other changeling and form a criminal organization to rule things behind the scenes at the very least.

Mmm...changeling brothels...

Prboably very expensive.

Collin152
2008-02-08, 05:46 PM
I mean seriously, with all the gossip they have access to, Changelings should be ruling Sharn. If you're a Changeling and a prostitute. You *will* have blackmail material. You can band together with other changeling and form a criminal organization to rule things behind the scenes at the very least.

Mmm...changeling brothels...

Prboably very expensive.

Definatley. You can get exactly what you want, as you describe it.
This is why Movie Magneto dates Movie Mystique.

Frosty
2008-02-08, 05:56 PM
I wonder how much of their insides really change.

Can a male changeling that shifts to female form lactate and breastfeed? Will their internal body chemistry change? I mean, going from lots of testosterone to lots of estrogen has gotta have *some* effects. Maybe it could affect their thinking?

And hell, if there's one thing that'll affect a male's thinking, it would be experiencing a period. :smallamused:

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-08, 05:56 PM
I mean seriously, with all the gossip they have access to, Changelings should be ruling Sharn. If you're a Changeling and a prostitute. You *will* have blackmail material. You can band together with other changeling and form a criminal organization to rule things behind the scenes at the very least.

Mmm...changeling brothels...

Prboably very expensive.


Actually, they do have a criminal organisation in Sharn: the Tyrants. Ran by doppelgangers, the Tyrants control most brothels in the Sharn (many prostitutes being changelings working for the Tyrants), sell forged identification papers and most importantly, sell informations.

They steal people's identity to frame crimes and share identities (such as the Councilor for Lower Tavick's Landing). While it seems very useful and dangerous, they're not on the very crucial positions *yet* because of that blasted "Discern Shapechanger" spell and the lack of higher level members (highest is 8th with 3 levels of expert, second being 5 5th level NPCs). Of course, it must be said that changelings, who make up most of the organisation's membership, lack the ambitions required to rule the world... it's the doppelgangers who're trying to do that.



I wonder how much of their insides really change.

Can a male changeling that shifts to female form lactate and breastfeed? Will their internal body chemistry change? I mean, going from lots of testosterone to lots of estrogen has gotta have *some* effects. Maybe it could affect their thinking?

And hell, if there's one thing that'll affect a male's thinking, it would be experiencing a period.

If I were a changeling I'd live most of my life as a male or just avoid that time of the month. How convinient is that? Now I want to be a changeling. :smallsigh:

About affecting a male's thinking- they would respect ladyfolks more if they could even fathom the depth of suffering we go through. :smallannoyed:

LibraryOgre
2008-02-08, 06:11 PM
I find all this discussion interesting for the insight it sheds on Palladium Fantasy's changelings, who are very similar; they have an allergy to salt and intolerance to alcohol, longer lifespan, and a different natural form (tall, skinny, hairless, with yellowish skin), but otherwise, they're very similar in abilities.


About affecting a male's thinking- they would respect ladyfolks more if they could even fathom the depth of suffering we go through. :smallannoyed:

I'm manic-depressive. I'm not impressed.

Frosty
2008-02-08, 06:49 PM
If I were a changeling I'd live most of my life as a male or just avoid that time of the month. How convinient is that? Now I want to be a changeling. :smallsigh:

About affecting a male's thinking- they would respect ladyfolks more if they could even fathom the depth of suffering we go through. :smallannoyed:

And not only, imagine the amount of respect after a male has given *birth*

Seriously, if males had to give birth, the human race would die out.

Collin152
2008-02-08, 06:58 PM
And not only, imagine the amount of respect after a male has given *birth*

Seriously, if males had to give birth, the human race would die out.

You mean, if all males.
Sides, theres still gunna be the accidental case, so we might not die out, per se. We'll just have to learn to implant embroys in chimpanzees, or grow them underneath a frog inside of a hens egg so that they get powers of petrification.
Hmmmm....

Baron Malkar
2008-02-08, 07:21 PM
Considering that modern medicineis capible of allowing a male human host a baby and have a c section after nine months using purely vestigial (for a male) organs, i'm pretty sure a changling could be a pregnant male with the big belly and all but would have to shift to female to actualy give birth as males dont have the proper openings.:smallamused:

Reinboom
2008-02-08, 07:24 PM
Considering that modern medicineis capible of allowing a male human host a baby and have a c section after nine months using purely vestigial (for a male) organs, i'm pretty sure a changling could be a pregnant male with the big belly and all but would have to shift to female to actualy give birth as males dont have the proper openings.:smallamused:

May I get a reference for the claim in this statement?

Collin152
2008-02-08, 07:25 PM
Considering that modern medicineis capible of allowing a male human host a baby and have a c section after nine months using purely vestigial (for a male) organs, i'm pretty sure a changling could be a pregnant male with the big belly and all but would have to shift to female to actualy give birth as males dont have the proper openings.:smallamused:

Wait- we can do the seahorse trick already?

Kurald Galain
2008-02-08, 08:19 PM
Question - supposing a changeling, female or otherwise, gets pregnant, what happens to the unborn child if s/he shapeshifts?

Speaking of which - White Wolf has a number of books on shapeshifters, and tends to be less edgy about "adult material" than D&D is. Does anyone recall reading anything about werewolf pregnancy (as in, what happens when you shift form?) Or what about Ananasi swarm form?

Collin152
2008-02-08, 08:29 PM
When a changeling gets pregnant, does the child look like what the changeling did when it conceived, or does the child change with the changeling?
Does this remind anyone else of Mystique and her little... mishap with baby Kurt?

Demented
2008-02-08, 08:37 PM
You mean, if all males.
Sides, theres still gunna be the accidental case, so we might not die out, per se. We'll just have to learn to implant embroys in chimpanzees, or grow them underneath a frog inside of a hens egg so that they get powers of petrification.
Hmmmm....

Are you joking?
We'd be having quadruplets for the bragging rights!



...Now I have this image of male amazons that fly into battle while pregnant. Stupefying.

Collin152
2008-02-08, 08:49 PM
Are you joking?
We'd be having quadruplets for the bragging rights!



...Now I have this image of male amazons that fly into battle while pregnant. Stupefying.

Yeah, go ahead and brag. I'm going ot stay over here and not undergo biological torture.

Oh, and more power to ya, females of the world. If there weren't some of you willing or stupid enough to go through it twice, humanity would never keep itself together.
Twins aside.

Tengu
2008-02-08, 08:50 PM
I do not have anything to contribute, but this thread is extremely amusing. Please don't stop.

Collin152
2008-02-08, 08:58 PM
If a changeling succeeds on a disguise check to impersonate someone eith their power, then switches sex, can they create carbon copy children of people?
Assuming they have a good charisma, of course.

The_Snark
2008-02-08, 09:07 PM
Question - supposing a changeling, female or otherwise, gets pregnant, what happens to the unborn child if s/he shapeshifts?

Nothing.


When a changeling gets pregnant, does the child look like what the changeling did when it conceived, or does the child change with the changeling?

If the child is a changeling, it looks like a changeling when it's born. If the child is not a changeling, I imagine it would mostly resemble its other parent. Not a carbon copy, but similar. The form the changeling was in when it conceived/gave birth wouldn't have had any effect on the child.

At least, this is how I would logically interpret it. I don't think the books go into most of this.

blakyoshi7
2008-02-08, 11:25 PM
This thread made me realize it is theoretically possible for a changeling to impregnate itself.

Cloning, The Easy Way!

mikeejimbo
2008-02-08, 11:38 PM
can she bear cubs?

1d6 Pun Damage!

SurlySeraph
2008-02-09, 12:03 AM
Considering that modern medicineis capible of allowing a male human host a baby and have a c section after nine months using purely vestigial (for a male) organs, i'm pretty sure a changling could be a pregnant male with the big belly and all but would have to shift to female to actualy give birth as males dont have the proper openings.:smallamused:


May I get a reference for the claim in this statement?

I think he's referring to this (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19990222/ai_n14206683). Males could, extremely theoretically, be pregnant if you implanted a fetus with the placenta attached somewhere in their internal organs. You'd need surgery to remove the baby once it came to term, you'd need massive hormone treatments, it's extremely unlikely that the baby would actually develop successfully, and even if it did develop successfully the man would likely get organ damage, since human bodies are not designed to have large foreign growths in them.

Summary: it's possible, but incredibly impractical and likely to kill the fetus and/ or maim the father if attempted.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-09, 04:37 AM
Nothing.

Too easy. What if the new shape is substantially smaller, e.g. a halfling (or pixie), or even worse - something that lays eggs, e.g. lizardfolk?

The_Snark
2008-02-09, 04:46 AM
Too easy. What if the new shape is substantially smaller, e.g. a halfling (or pixie), or even worse - something that lays eggs, e.g. lizardfolk?

You can't become substantially smaller with the power; the power can't change you more than 1 foot from your natural height. Egg-laying... uh...

... based on Races of Ebberon's statement that changelings can't change gender while pregnant, I'd have to say that they can't do anything that would cause them to lose the necessary fetus-bearing organs. Or that if they did mess around with that too much, they'd end up with a stillborn child. They can't change the kid's shape- it's based off Disguise Self.

Demented
2008-02-09, 07:44 AM
Well, there are half-dragons. A half-lizardfolk half-changeling can't be THAT bad.


Yeah, go ahead and brag. I'm going ot stay over here and not undergo biological torture.

You'll cave in to peer pressure eventually.

Kami2awa
2008-02-09, 08:22 AM
Based on what I've read about changelings on these boards, it's a complete physical transformation, so if you shift into a form that can get pregnant, you can get pregnant. However, I think that the book that covers changelings (Sharn: City of Towers?) explicitly states that while a changeling is pregnant, (s)he can't change form.

You should probably get confirmation from someone who's read the book, though.

So, a nasty way to keep a changeling stuck in 1 shape for 9 months...

thorgrim29
2008-02-09, 08:34 AM
According to Races of Eberron, they can change shape, not gender when pregnant. So they just shapeshift to the race that has the shortest gestation..... And yes, being a changeling would be amazing, but a lot of folk would go crazy due to identity crysis (ie: who am I?). As to why changeling beguilers dont rule the world, they probably dont feel like it you know..... Ruling the world is hard work, living off the world is easyer and less risky.

Worira
2008-02-09, 10:54 AM
This thread made me realize it is theoretically possible for a changeling to impregnate itself.

Cloning, The Easy Way!

That's not cloning, that's self-inbreeding. It's different, and not a good idea.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-09, 11:21 AM
Well, there are half-dragons. A half-lizardfolk half-changeling can't be THAT bad.

It's not as bad as Half-dragon Black Pudding. That dragon didn't listen when its mommy dragon told him not to play with the food. Ewwww :smalleek:

Collin152
2008-02-09, 02:15 PM
You'll cave in to peer pressure eventually.

Right, cause that's why I drink, smoke, and do drugs. :smallyuk:

seedjar
2008-02-09, 02:45 PM
Amusing thread. Just wanted to note that changing sex organs from a male to female configuration or vice versa really isn't a huge feat... happens in the real world all the time with frogs and fish and such. Do a little reading on embryology - everybody starts out female, it's just a little chemical trick to make boys out of girls.
~Joe

kemmotar
2008-02-09, 02:52 PM
Okay, just a few notes on the shapechange ability...according to the MM I the dopplegagner's shapechange ability can allow you to change into a medium or smal humanoid, thus not animals or diminutive humanoids abuse...Also, no mindflayer shapechange since it's not a humanoid, but a monstrous humanoid..(it was mentioed at some point)

The changeling's ability is much the same and should be considered to overlap greatly with the shapechange ability of the dopplegagner. Shapechange also allows you to change back to your original form thus you could change from another form to your original form, wildshape or polymorph...

Also, a changeling cannot change into a male after getting impregnated. The child of a changeling with another race has a 50% chance to be a changeling and 50% of the other species. Breeding between changelings always causes a changeling be born.

As far as changing into a hermaphrodite or anything else that appears in our deranged minds is out. It has to be something that exists...or any sane DM should rule so in absence of a rule...thus no hermaphrodites. Also, dopplegagners i think can use the movement type and speed of what they change into. Also you can take the assume supernatural ability monster feat that allows you to choose one supernatural ability of a form you can change into and you can then use it...potential for cheese...?amazing...

Also, the changeling's ability is minor shapechange, but they can gain the normal one with the cabinet trickster prestige cap ability(level 5)...then go for mindspu and anything with an intelligence score appears on the minimap radar...unless they have mindlank(evil DMs...)

Now about the male impregnation...there was a movie about it with arnold swatzeneger(no idea how the man is spelled...the terminator guy...also known as the little tortija boy:P)...

However, you do not get racial bonuses and abilities and cannot assume the form of a creature with a template(i'm guessing unless you already have it maybe)

However, you can use shapechange to turn into a half dragon and then use PAO to permanently turn into a dragon...possibly, maybe it needs the racial emulation feat...

That's all from the dopplegagner lover...and they probably rule the world and haven't told the creators of eberron...shapechanged cabinet trickster mindspy changelings posed as the creators to exclude some facts from the books for the sanity of the people...oh and cthulhu is actually a dopplegagner using PAO and some weird shapechange:smalltongue:

Collin152
2008-02-09, 02:54 PM
Hermaphrodites exist. It's a form of Chimerism.

theMycon
2008-02-10, 03:39 PM
That's not cloning, that's self-inbreeding. It's different, and not a good idea.

Actually, that's parthenogenesis w/forced syzygy*, and that's incredibly cool. Not just because I love the words, and not just because it's how bacteria evolved all their interesting traits (including, according to a [I]really[i] loose definition of syzygy, becoming eukaryotes), but because there's an entirely female species of lizard that somehow manages to have more genetic diversity than the cheetah.

All ickyness aside, inbreeding's nearly harmless for one or two generations. It doesn't introduce any defects. The only real problem is that all your recessive traits, including the tiny mutations that don't usually get a chance to show up before they're bred out, are likely to be in your relatives, too. So, you're far more likely to produce a kid where the little defects don't disappear from the genotype, even if they still don't show up in the phenotype. Given enough generations, it's likely that your "hidden problem" will come out.


Also, I'd houserule a sixth finger allowable, as it's a strictly dominant, single-gene trait, just like a penis but on a different chromosome.


*basically, meiosis for chumps.

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-10, 09:09 PM
I always find it hilarious how women seem to think they're the only ones who suffer. Males go through as many hormonal fluctuations in a day as women do in a month. Win at something? Your testosterone goes through the roof, and you start scoping for women, you feel a little more aggressive, etc. Lose? Now you feel like crap, the more emo ones contemplate suicide, etc. So yeah, colour me unimpressed by complaints of menstruation, childbirth, etc.

PS. I still think it would be totally cool to be a Changeling, to switch genders at will, etc. I just think that both sides have valid complaints.

Collin152
2008-02-10, 11:05 PM
I always find it hilarious how women seem to think they're the only ones who suffer. Males go through as many hormonal fluctuations in a day as women do in a month. Win at something? Your testosterone goes through the roof, and you start scoping for women, you feel a little more aggressive, etc. Lose? Now you feel like crap, the more emo ones contemplate suicide, etc. So yeah, colour me unimpressed by complaints of menstruation, childbirth, etc.

See, that whoel thing illustrates the sterotyical differances emotionally between men and women. Women are supposed to be more emotionally open because they have much more visual manifestations of hormonal function.
Which, when integrated into society, means it sucks to be a guy with feelings.

brian c
2008-02-10, 11:40 PM
Yeah, go ahead and brag. I'm going ot stay over here and not undergo biological torture.

Oh, and more power to ya, females of the world. If there weren't some of you willing or stupid enough to go through it twice, humanity would never keep itself together.
Twins aside.

Ahem.

Like these wonderful folks. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duggar)

I don't want to say anything inappropriate or too rude, but I think I'll be understood if I say that it's too bad they have 17 kids and Bill Gates only has 3.

Collin152
2008-02-11, 12:06 AM
Ahem.

Like these wonderful folks. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duggar)

I don't want to say anything inappropriate or too rude, but I think I'll be understood if I say that it's too bad they have 17 kids and Bill Gates only has 3.

Read, willing or stupid.

Baerdog7
2008-02-11, 12:37 AM
Ahem.

Like these wonderful folks. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duggar)

I don't want to say anything inappropriate or too rude, but I think I'll be understood if I say that it's too bad they have 17 kids and Bill Gates only has 3.

*ahem*

http://www.babble.com/CS/photos/may2007/images/19719/340x425.aspx

That is all.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-11, 01:23 AM
*ahem*
That is all.

Somehow, I find it very offensive. Anyone else agree with me? :smallannoyed:



Edit: I didn't put the picture in the quote because I didn't like it. It's the picture that I have problem with, mind ya.

Hectonkhyres
2008-02-11, 01:29 AM
Serious question: What happens when a changeling has sex with a doppleganger?

Also: Can changelings make 'pockets' for the purpose of smuggling?

Baron Malkar
2008-02-11, 01:34 AM
I think he's referring to this (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19990222/ai_n14206683). Males could, extremely theoretically, be pregnant if you implanted a fetus with the placenta attached somewhere in their internal organs. You'd need surgery to remove the baby once it came to term, you'd need massive hormone treatments, it's extremely unlikely that the baby would actually develop successfully, and even if it did develop successfully the man would likely get organ damage, since human bodies are not designed to have large foreign growths in them.

Summary: it's possible, but incredibly impractical and likely to kill the fetus and/ or maim the father if attempted.


Thank you for finding that, I wasnt sure where I heard it from. However the opperation has now been tested on sheep with an implanted uteris making the prcedure much less dangerous but requiring three operations instead of two.

Sense the changling would probobly capible of keeping the uteris around while shapechanged and would not have to worry about rejection it would seem to me to be very simple in a world with magic.

Khanderas
2008-02-11, 09:04 AM
And not only, imagine the amount of respect after a male has given *birth*

Seriously, if males had to give birth, the human race would die out.
Comments like that I find insulting to mankind (as opposed to womenkind).
Its not better when I hear it all the time, that "when a man gets a cold it's the end of the world" and such comments and "giving birth is like pressing a tennisball though the urinal canal".

Im sure the second quote (about the tennisball) is supposed to be referring to scale, but it does not. Pingpong ball would problebly be quite alot more accurate. Second of all, the birth canal is... youknow MADE for giving birth. Painful and effing bloody sure, but still natural and because of that I submit that the female body is designed to suck it up. If men gave birth (ignoring that would make men women, since that IS the main biological difference) we would have the body built for it and we would tell the other sex they were lucky bastards to not having to put up with that crap :smallwink: .

Don't get me started with the urban myth about men and getting a cold. I suck it up with the best of them. Doesn't matter though, because a woman can always trumph with the woman exlcusive pains we all know.


So yes, menstrual pains and birth pains suck, I sympathise. But I resent the notion that I, and my sex (apparantly gender is in the head, sex would be the right term) would be wimps for not having to deal with that.





Edit: Speaking of wimps, out of me and my four sisters, only I had the nuts go and help our father with the calf-births. Adult grown women all of them but it was too "icky" to come down and help pull a rope 10 meters away from the cow. Note: Not helping on a birth our father cant deal with himself means a dead calf, a dead cow and several thousand dollars or pounds down the crapper. My mom actually commented thusly when I went down "You sure you can handle this as a boy". Needless to say I just looked at her and did what a man (apparantly) gotta do.

Frosty
2008-02-11, 12:37 PM
I'm pretty sure scientific studies have shown that women have a higher pain tolerance than men. That's where the joke about humanity dying out comes from.

Khanderas
2008-02-11, 01:05 PM
I'm pretty sure scientific studies have shown that women have a higher pain tolerance than men. That's where the joke about humanity dying out comes from.
As I recalled it, that was regarding to red headed women. Where red headed men had no special tolerance.

I got no problem with them having a higher pain tolerance (that is logical when you think about it), it's the point after it, that men cant take alittle pain and "feel what we do for a month and you would crawl up an cry" attitude.. :/


One should think about this. If they have a higher pain tolerance, then they would feel less pain. That would count against them in the "who is toughest" department. No problem dealing with pain if you got a 10% (made up arbitrary number) genus based bonus to feelling less pain.
Pain is subjective though, even if you measure the amount of nervesignals from a stubbed toe.

Fighteer
2008-02-11, 01:08 PM
I'm pretty sure scientific studies have shown that women have a higher pain tolerance than men. That's where the joke about humanity dying out comes from.
Tell that to my wife. She hurts herself hitting me. (Then again, I am a black belt. But think about how I got there.)

Still, pain tolerance is relative. I can take getting kicked in the stomach but get out of sorts when someone tries to pluck my hair.

Kioran
2008-02-11, 01:11 PM
I'm pretty sure scientific studies have shown that women have a higher pain tolerance than men. That's where the joke about humanity dying out comes from.

That depends - it´s very likely that pain tolerance depends on the kind of "task" the body was originally built for. But studies suggest that men can take more pain from external damage and injuries as well. Would be fitting, with men geared towards their role as hunter/fighters (and no feministic ranting here, that is a man´s job because males are, on an individual basis, more expendable), and women optimized for their role in procreation and childbirth.

Frosty
2008-02-11, 01:16 PM
and women optimized for their role in procreation and childbirth.

I dunno...I think women have PRCed out of that being pigeonholed into that role a long time ago.

Kioran
2008-02-11, 01:19 PM
I dunno...I think women have PRCed out of that being pigeonholed into that role a long time ago.

And few men consider themselves "individually expendable" - yet this is what we are. That mankind can now harness machines and technology opens new roles for both genders, but these two remain with us. They are what we are genetically optimized for. Why are many people so upset about this?

Talya
2008-02-11, 01:33 PM
As I recalled it, that was regarding to red headed women. Where red headed men had no special tolerance.



Speaking as a redheaded woman, if I have a higher pain tolerance than you chumps, i pity you. I avoid pain at all costs! (although my daughter --second and hopefully last child-- was born so quickly I had no time for an epidural...natural all the way there.) My workout philosophy is: "No pain, no pain. (Please, no pain.)"

Frosty
2008-02-11, 01:40 PM
Ooh you've got kids? How old are your children Talya?

I avoid pain as well. But then, who doesn't besides masochists?

Serpent
2008-02-11, 01:43 PM
This thread has rather departed from the OP, don't you think?

Talya
2008-02-11, 02:47 PM
Ooh you've got kids? How old are your children Talya?

Five and two.

And this thread has made me read through the EbCS for the first time. It has some neat stuff...

Vulion
2008-02-11, 03:09 PM
I effing love changelings, the role-playing applications alone are enough to make me want to play an Eberron campaign!

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-11, 03:11 PM
I effing love changelings, the role-playing applications alone are enough to make me want to play an Eberron campaign!
Same here. Well, roleplaying applications and Warshaper, anyhow. And Recaster and Cabinet Trickster. Damn, but Changelings get some good PrCs.

theMycon
2008-02-11, 03:13 PM
As I recalled it, that was regarding to red headed women. Where red headed men had no special tolerance.

So many Irish jokes, so little time...
Also, so little confidence that they won't get me banned...

Talya
2008-02-11, 06:29 PM
So many Irish jokes, so little time...
Also, so little confidence that they won't get me banned...

My parents are from Belfast, and I'm a redhead.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-11, 06:51 PM
If changelings can change their gender after they give birth, what should their children refer to them as: mommy or daddy? Especially if both parents don't remember which role they played (assuming both were of the same race)! It's just horrendous you know. It's like, an episode from South Park all over again :smallsigh: . Yeah, I hated it.

Frosty
2008-02-11, 06:52 PM
I wonder how Changelings would view Gay Marriage.

NerdVicious
2008-02-11, 06:57 PM
Not sure if anyone satisfactorily answered this, but here's my take on it.

I am going to assume that humans are a good representation to how stuff works biologically in D&D for most any humanoid like creature. In humans, girls are born with all of their eggs at birth and never gain anymore, whereas males are able to continually produce sperm. Basically the means of creating their gamete are completely different.

Conversely, since doppelganger's don't have a "gender" and can both get pregnant or impregnate, they probably have workings more similar to something like a common plant (which has both sets of genitalia, fully functional), with the slight tweak that they don't "show" their gender in the natural form.

That being said, there are two scenarios here.

A) They are more human like. This means that if a male alters to a female, while he still has all of the anatomical parts, he does not have eggs. If he did, he would have to have a period, just like a girl. Without having eggs, no, he cannot get pregnant, similarly, females can't impregnate.

B) They are more doppelganger like. In their natural form they seem to have one single gender, but they actually have some of the workings of both AND they have both sets of gametes internally (e.g. looks female, but can still produce viable sperm). This means there isn't such thing as a true male or female changeling - they just appear to be one or the other.

As for what can get them knocked up, I would say that a changeling can get pregnant/impregnate anything that a human could, and that when in their new form, their eggs/sperm still carry their natural genetic set (read: the gamete doesn't have any of the traits of the altered form).

It's DM's call, but I would say that situation A would make more sense and ultimately, no, only female changelings can get pregnant.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-11, 07:00 PM
I wonder how Changelings would view Gay Marriage.

I can't even imagine how they would distinguish between a traditional marriage and a same-sex marriage.

"I thought you married Jane!" "HE is Jane!"



Oh. :smalleek:

Wraith
2008-02-11, 08:33 PM
Veering WILDLY back on course for a moment...


Speaking of which - White Wolf has a number of books on shapeshifters, and tends to be less edgy about "adult material" than D&D is. Does anyone recall reading anything about werewolf pregnancy (as in, what happens when you shift form?) Or what about Ananasi swarm form?

According to Werewolf: The Apocalypse (the now-defunct WoD book that I have) Werewolves only change shape - they do not change sex or any other fundamental plumbing, and as such when born to a character any child will resemble it's Breed - Homid (one human/one werewolf parent), Metis (2 werewolf) or Lupus (one wolf/one werewolf) - regardless of it's parent's current choice of form. Therefore a werewolf's pregnancy will not be interrupted by shapechanging - although particularly pedantic DM's may insist that the stress may or may not encourage contractions if attempted very late in the pregnancy.

Similarly, a Homid werewolf will always be born in human shape, Metis in werewolf and Lupus in wolf shape, regardless of the shape (or species) of parent. A Werewolf who has mated with a human, for example, will give birth to a 'human' even if shapechanged into a wolf. Similarly, a werewolf baring a wolf's cub will give birth to a 'wolf' even if they are currently in the shape of a human. So that also solves the next question of "what shape would a halfbreed shapechanger's child be?" - it will, in theory, be a shapechanger that has adopted the form of it's non-shapechanger parent.

Don't ask me how it works between two shapechangers, though - according to the logic of W:tA, two changelings breeding would produce a child that looks like a changeling in it's original, unchanged form, whatever THAT might look like...

Ananasi, on the other hand, are far more complicated.
Although they are the same in that they have 2 Breeds - Homid and Arachnid - Ananasi breeds are defined in a different way; to whit, the form that they are born in. A Werespider is called Homid because it is born in human form to a humanoid mother, and an Arachnid because it hatches spider-shaped from a were/normal spider's egg. There is no reference to the other parent, only relation to the mother whether or not mother is human, spider or werespider.

What occurs during the pregnancy, is unclear. Apparently the foetus develops in both human and egg forms (changing to match the form of the mother) until it is expelled from the mother - either as a child or an egg - at which point it's form is fixed and it's breed is established. When Changerling Form (that is, the werespider transforms into a SWARM of thousands of little spiders) occurs....

...the universe implodes in on itself, along with my brain because I simply don't know how to work it out.
I suppose that, if you didn't mind reading the fluff in a fairly twisted manner, all of the swarm's drones are normal spiders while all of the Leader spiders remain pregnant as a spider would be. Kill one of the Leaders, and you would diminish the offspring in the same way as you would the host (if, that is, you didn't instantly force an abortion).

I'm not even going to touch on the idea of a pregnant shapechanger swapping their gender. Presumably arrangements are made, possibly with the nearest Wizard, but I'd generally fall back on good old common sense and say that, unless they are specifically stating that they are keeping the necessary internal organs for gestation, either they automatically abort or they cannot change. Gruesome I know, but there are some things that even a pile of dead catgirls cannot change.

Ugh... I've been out of school too long. My poor brain isn't used to this kind of workout.... :smalltongue:

Tengu
2008-02-11, 08:52 PM
In Exalted, though, the Lunars have a charm that lets them swap gender, and it is precisely stated that they can get pregnant in female form even if it's not their original one, but as long as the pregnancy lasts they cannot use this charm again.

Demented
2008-02-11, 09:01 PM
What about hermaphroditic changelings?
If you can change sex (or even if you can't), can you change fertility?
What if you castrate a male changeling?

...What if you castrate a doppleganger? o.O
"They, er, grew back."


I'm pretty sure scientific studies have shown that women have a higher pain tolerance than men. That's where the joke about humanity dying out comes from.

There was, supposedly, a test that occurred somewhat as follows:
Boys and girls got pinched (or some mechanism) until they said it hurt.
Girls were more expressive, so you probably knew when it hurt.
Whereas boys were not expressive, so you probably didn't know when it hurt.
This somehow meant that boys were more sensitive to pain.
. . . ?
Then again, it could've been a study of infants for all I remember.

Frosty
2008-02-11, 09:40 PM
Hmm...I wodner if that means dopplegangers and changelings. can regenerate lost limbs.

Hectonkhyres
2008-02-11, 10:41 PM
Hmm...I wodner if that means dopplegangers and changelings. can regenerate lost limbs.

I would rule that they can... but that the regenerated limb would not be fully functional. You might be able to hold a coffee cup with it, but not swing a sword.

Collin152
2008-02-11, 10:44 PM
I would rule that they can... but that the regenerated limb would not be fully functional. You might be able to hold a coffee cup with it, but not swing a sword.

So long as I can get mah coffee.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-11, 10:52 PM
Regeneration ability and shape-shifting ability should not be regarded as the same thing. Changelings can shape their body at will, but they should not be granted of such a potent ability unless they take an appropriate penalty for it. Regeneration, coupled with certain immunities can make one invulnerable, you know.

Collin152
2008-02-11, 11:20 PM
Obviously we aren't speaking of the kind of regeneration that nulifies damage as being nonlethal, but rather, the regrowth of limbs as a sort of psuedopod.

kamikasei
2008-02-12, 04:57 AM
So that also solves the next question of "what shape would a halfbreed shapechanger's child be?" - it will, in theory, be a shapechanger that has adopted the form of it's non-shapechanger parent.

Grey skin, thin white hair, softened, indistinct features. A Changeling's natural form is not a mystery.

Tengu
2008-02-12, 05:17 AM
Grey skin, thin white hair, softened, indistinct features. A Changeling's natural form is not a mystery.

Now that reminds me that the whole changeling race can be described as white haired bishonen Gray aliens. Which is kinda amusing.

Frosty
2008-02-12, 11:17 AM
From what I see in the MM3, changeling eyes freak me out.

Vulion
2008-02-12, 12:28 PM
From what I see in the MM3, changeling eyes freak me out.

The eyes change depending on the artist, some have them bulging, others have them shaped like normal eyes.

captain_decadence
2008-02-12, 12:45 PM
I always read it that Changelings can change physical features (say, they could form the external genetalia) but they can't make it work unless it's their natural one. Well, work beyond the most basic of functions. Changelings are not true shapeshifters. They can shift some of their physical appearance within a pretty specific area so I don't think that they could really shift around their organs enough to create a uterus or create testes that produce sperm (testes and ovaries are the same thing in a fetus but quite quite different in both form and production in adults). So a male changeling could only produce male children. He may be able to grow a v-jayjay because really it's just a whole, but he can't get a fully functioning internal reproductive system.

Yes, I call it the v-jayjay (pronounced vuh-jay-jay).

captain_decadence
2008-02-12, 12:47 PM
I always read it that Changelings can change physical features (say, they could form the external genetalia) but they can't make it work unless it's their natural one. Well, work beyond the most basic of functions. Changelings are not true shapeshifters. They can shift some of their physical appearance within a pretty specific area so I don't think that they could really shift around their organs enough to create a uterus or create testes that produce sperm (testes and ovaries are the same thing in a fetus but quite quite different in both form and production in adults). So a male changeling could only produce male children. He may be able to grow a v-jayjay because really it's just a hole, but he can't get a fully functioning internal reproductive system.

Yes, I call it the v-jayjay (pronounced vuh-jay-jay).

Frosty
2008-02-12, 01:30 PM
The eyes change depending on the artist, some have them bulging, others have them shaped like normal eyes.

They're...so...large... :smalleek:

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-12, 02:28 PM
Now that reminds me that the whole changeling race can be described as white haired bishonen Gray aliens. Which is kinda amusing.
I always thought of them as being prettier, monochrome versions of Odo from DS9. Who, knowing Keith Baker, was probably a major inspiration.

Burley
2008-02-12, 02:31 PM
I'm not really sure how this thread got 4 whole pages on it. I expected it to be put to rest relatively quickly.
I'm just saying this because, in the only setting where Changlings are totally playable, it straight says that changlings have a specific sex at birth, but a changling can get pregnant when it morphs into a female, and it is stuck as a female until it gives birth.
IMHO, a changling can get pregnant at anytime, as long as they aren't baron/impotent.

Note: I'm sorry, but I didn't bother to read the whole thread...at all really. So, if somebody has already put this, my bad. Just trying to put the kabash on it, since, IIRC, this is like the third thread in the past week or so asking the same bloody question.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-12, 02:36 PM
No, I'm pretty sure it's all been the same thread. And the question's been answered, repeatedly and authoritatively (a few people who disagree with the published source material not withstanding); we're just meandering around the general discussion of how awesome/disturbing Changelings are now.

captain_decadence
2008-02-12, 03:46 PM
That's not cloning, that's self-inbreeding. It's different, and not a good idea.

Yes, it's a very very bad idea. You aren't even breeding with someone else, so there is a huge chance that some nasty nasty recessive will show up.

Also, the Eberron source book (though it may contradict it somewhere else) says that Changelings' Minor Change Shape is "a minor physical alteration of facial features, skin color and texture, and size" and gives no other indications that changelings can do more than this. When a male changeling disguises himself as a woman, he is changing his overrall appearance (mostly face) to look like a woman but he isn't working in anything internal. These guys aren't true shapeshifters.

Again, if this is contradicted in other books, sorry.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-12, 03:53 PM
Contradicted in Races of Eberron, actually, which several people have mentioned starting on the first page. I'd give you a page number, but I'm AFB at the moment.