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Crow
2008-02-08, 12:47 PM
Can a character wear enchanted spiked gauntlets of defending and attack using a two-handed weapon while still getting the AC bonus from the gauntlets?

What about wearing armor spikes with the same property?

This just doesn't sound right.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 12:54 PM
A reasonable interpretation would require that the weapon be used for the Defending property to have any effect, but many have tried all kinds of trick to circumvent that. (There is a non-negligible chance that this thread will take that direction.)

TWF with the armor spikes would be within the RAW.

Crimson Avenger
2008-02-08, 12:55 PM
Tricky one with the armor spikes.

As a DM I would say no to the spike gauntlets, unless thaty are disarmed somehow, and then attack with the gauntlets.

I suppose you could run into this dilema with spiked shield too.

I'd say no, unless they are actually using the shield bash, or they use the armor spikes as a melee attacks.

Telonius
2008-02-08, 01:01 PM
Sounds like a sneaky attempt to get the Defending property stacked onto your two-handed weapon without paying the scaling +1 price. (i.e. 8000gp for a +2 greatsword and 8000gp for a +1 Defending spiked gauntlet, instead of 18,000 for a +2 Defending greatsword). I'd nix it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 01:08 PM
Sounds like a sneaky attempt to get the Defending property stacked onto your two-handed weapon without paying the scaling +1 price. (i.e. 8000gp for a +2 greatsword and 8000gp for a +1 Defending spiked gauntlet, instead of 18,000 for a +2 Defending greatsword). I'd nix it.

It is not that great a combo. You spend 8K and a feat to get +1 to your AC, but take a -2 penalty on your two-handed attack.

Chances are you are much better of throwing money at your animated shield and can find some better use of that feat.


+ it is just silly trying to attack with your armor spikes while wielding a two-handed weapon. :smallsigh:

Telonius
2008-02-08, 01:36 PM
The way the OP put it, it sounds like the character is going to be using a two-handed weapon along with the defending gauntlets, not attacking with the gauntlets. I really can't see any reason to do something like that, other than cheesily trying to get the defending bonus to transfer to AC without decreasing your attack roll.

Crow
2008-02-08, 01:41 PM
The way the OP put it, it sounds like the character is going to be using a two-handed weapon along with the defending gauntlets, not attacking with the gauntlets. I really can't see any reason to do something like that, other than cheesily trying to get the defending bonus to transfer to AC without decreasing your attack roll.

What he said is correct. This is what is going on. I checked the FAQ and (surprise!) it wasn't really covered.

I think it's something the player pulled off of the CharOp boards.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 01:43 PM
The way the OP put it, it sounds like the character is going to be using a two-handed weapon along with the defending gauntlets, not attacking with the gauntlets. I really can't see any reason to do something like that, other than cheesily trying to get the defending bonus to transfer to AC without decreasing your attack roll.

The first (gauntlets) is illegal, but the Armor spikes is not if used with TWF.

Arguing that you can use the defending property without attacking with the weapon is indeed cheesy.

Crimson Avenger
2008-02-08, 02:38 PM
The Chese comes from the fact that the cleric was going to cast Gr Magic Weapon on both gauntlets and the armor spikes, giving him a +5/+5/+5 = 15Unamed bonus to armor class without reducing the attack and damage rolls.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 02:48 PM
The Chese comes from the fact that the cleric was going to cast Gr Magic Weapon on both gauntlets and the armor spikes, giving him a +5/+5/+5 = 15Unamed bonus to armor class without reducing the attack and damage rolls.

That would have been a little cheesy, but luckily there is no need to worry about it. :smallamused:

nargbop
2008-02-08, 02:49 PM
Doesn't "defending" mean that the gauntlets try to move on their own to deflect blows ? So... they'd interfere with a two-handed weapon.

SpikeFightwicky
2008-02-08, 02:51 PM
Similar (but different) question:

Can a monk dual wield 2 kamas of defending, sac all the bonus to AC, and then attack with unarmed attacks? If not, can he keep the bonus if he flurries and uses the kamas to attack on the last (and lowest modded) attacks?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 02:52 PM
Doesn't "defending" mean that the gauntlets try to move on their own to deflect blows ? So... they'd interfere with a two-handed weapon.

It is not clear exactly how they are supposed to work.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 02:54 PM
Similar (but different) question:

Can a monk dual wield 2 kamas of defending, sac all the bonus to AC, and then attack with unarmed attacks?

You need to use them, not just hold them or have them in your backpack. :smallsmile:


If not, can he keep the bonus if he flurries and uses the kamas to attack on the last (and lowest modded) attacks?


That is possible.

Telonius
2008-02-08, 02:57 PM
Doesn't "defending" mean that the gauntlets try to move on their own to deflect blows ? So... they'd interfere with a two-handed weapon.

That's actually a combination of "Dancing" and "Animated." Dancing is a property of weapons. It makes the weapon attack a foe on its own without needing a character to hold it. Spiked Gauntlets are considered Weapons, not Armor, so that would be a possible property. The only reason the spiked gauntlets discussed here might give any special AC is that the Defending property allows the user to transfer some of the Weapon bonus to AC.

"Animated" is a property of a Shield, and only a shield. You can't put it on Spiked Gauntlets. An Animated shield moves around and blocks things for the user, providing a shield bonus to AC without the user needing to hold it.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-08, 03:42 PM
So, you can't use your defending weapon during a total defense action then? Yuck. You might end up with a situation where it's better to attack and miss then to concentrate on defense. :smallfrown:

Person_Man
2008-02-08, 03:45 PM
Another option is to be a Whatever/Kensai. Kensai can enchant each of their fists separately. Make one hand your offense hand, and the other hand a defense hand. Make a full attack, and make your last iterative attack with the defensive hand, so that it counts as being used. I had a Monk/Hexblade/Deepwarden/Blackguard/Kensai build a while back with a retardly high AC, Saves, hit points, Mettle, Evasion, and moderately strong offense. I threw him against my PCs, and it took them 10 rounds to kill. Good times.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 03:46 PM
So, you can't use your defending weapon during a total defense action then? Yuck. You might end up with a situation where it's better to attack and miss then to concentrate on defense. :smallfrown:

You can still fight defensively though.

Total Defense might represent dodging rather than parrying if you insist on an in-game answer to this corner case.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-08, 03:52 PM
Could you add your weapon's defense property to AC if you defensively attacked umm... the darkness?

See? You knew there would be silliness in this thread. I'm just trying to help prove you right. :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

Telonius
2008-02-08, 03:53 PM
Total defense gives you +4 Dodge bonus to AC. You would need to have a +5 Defending weapon (or a +2 Defending and a +3 Defending, if you use two weapon fighting) in order for an attack to be better than full defense. This requires one item that costs 72,000 gp, or two that cost 50,000 gp collectively, to work. Really, not very cost-effective.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 03:55 PM
Could you add your weapon's defense property to AC if you defensively attacked umm... the darkness?

See? You knew there would be silliness in this thread. I'm just trying to help prove you right. :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

It is not that much of a problem to me really. If you spend your action "attacking" then I see no problem granting you the extra AC.
There is nothing preventing you from attacking blindly into a square hoping that something invisible waits for your blade. :smallamused:

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-08, 04:06 PM
Total defense gives you +4 Dodge bonus to AC. You would need to have a +5 Defending weapon (or a +2 Defending and a +3 Defending, if you use two weapon fighting) in order for an attack to be better than full defense. This requires one item that costs 72,000 gp, or two that cost 50,000 gp collectively, to work. Really, not very cost-effective.

Well, I'm thinking more from a warlock perspective. I don't really care if my weapon hits anything at all, it's my Invocations, spells, SLA's and such I'm fighting with. So not being able to count a defensive bonus as AC kinda reduces a weapons utility by quite a bit. As far as cost, if you you've maximized your AC from other sources, this would otherwise be a good option especially since the AC bonus is untyped and stacks with everything.

I wonder if there's a way to make a melee attack (at a huge penalty) as a free action? :smallamused:

*goes back to munchkin-land*

Telonius
2008-02-08, 04:17 PM
Dodge bonus is one of the very few bonuses that stacks with itself, so it's just as good as untyped.

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-08, 04:39 PM
I don't see the problem (aside from the cleric casting greater magic weapon). From a strict rule nazi way of reading defending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#defending) one can infer that you could do this (you can wield the gauntlets and not attack with them, much the same in a total defense action you still wield a weapon). From the same strict rule nazi stand point this doesn't work because it isn't a sword =_=.

I think the big thing to note is stacking. I was under the impression that unnamed bonuses from the same source (defending enhancement) do not stack. So, no twf two defending daggers to give you a stackable buff to your AC. Likewise the armor spikes and the gauntlets wouldn't all stack together.

Personally I would not have a problem with it, as a ring of deflection is cheaper and an animated tower shield can grant cover. The greater magic weapon thing is something to look at... but we are talking at least a 20th level caster, so at least 20th level characters. Things get a little outrageous at epic, and the warrior having a little extra AC seems to be the least of what could and probably is happening.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 04:56 PM
I don't see the problem (aside from the cleric casting greater magic weapon). From a strict rule nazi way of reading defending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#defending) one can infer that you could do this (you can wield the gauntlets and not attack with them, much the same in a total defense action you still wield a weapon). From the same strict rule nazi stand point this doesn't work because it isn't a sword =_=.

The word "use" does not refer to using the weapon as a mantelpiece.


I think the big thing to note is stacking. I was under the impression that unnamed bonuses from the same source (defending enhancement) do not stack. So, no twf two defending daggers to give you a stackable buff to your AC. Likewise the armor spikes and the gauntlets wouldn't all stack together.


Two bonuses form the same source does not normally stack, but Defending has the following piece of text.


...a bonus that stacks with all others.

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-08, 05:10 PM
I don't think there is any Raw about what 'use' means, but I do agree with you that it doesn't mean not using it at all. Simply activating the defending property could be using it. At the same time, while the bonus may stack with all others, I am not convinced that it stacks with itself because it is an unnamed of the same source.

Keld Denar
2008-02-08, 05:11 PM
The greater magic weapon thing is something to look at... but we are talking at least a 20th level caster, so at least 20th level characters. Things get a little outrageous at epic, and the warrior having a little extra AC seems to be the least of what could and probably is happening.

Nonsense. A cleric with a little forsight and buffing can hit CL 20 by level 9, just 2 levels after GMW becomes available at 7.

Bead of Karma +4
Orange IWIN Stone +1
Bard casting Hymn of Praise +2
Divine Spell Power +4
Base CL of 9
CL 9+4+1+2+4 = CL20.

Hardly epic. Also, the gear needed to do this trick is pretty standard for a buff/caster/healer cleric. Probably could squeeze another +2 out of there to bring it down to cleric level 7, which is the absolute lowest to cast a 4th level spell.

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-08, 05:18 PM
Nonsense. A cleric with a little forsight and buffing can hit CL 20 by level 9, just 2 levels after GMW becomes available at 7.

Bead of Karma +4
Orange IWIN Stone +1
Bard casting Hymn of Praise +2
Divine Spell Power +4
Base CL of 9
CL 9+4+1+2+4 = CL20.

Hardly epic. Also, the gear needed to do this trick is pretty standard for a buff/caster/healer cleric. Probably could squeeze another +2 out of there to bring it down to cleric level 7, which is the absolute lowest to cast a 4th level spell.

Case in point: there are other things that could be much worse than a temporary +5 to AC or a +1 most of the time.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-08, 05:29 PM
Dodge bonus is one of the very few bonuses that stacks with itself, so it's just as good as untyped.

Yeah, but you can be denied your dodge bonus when you lose your DEX bonus. Only untyped (or circumstance) bonuses are forever! :smallwink:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 05:30 PM
I don't think there is any Raw about what 'use' means, but I do agree with you that it doesn't mean not using it at all. Simply activating the defending property could be using it.

Activation is the free action that takes place at the start of the turn. The use comes after.
It is true that "use" is not defined in the rules, but since this is a weapon RAI probably does not involve scratching your back.


As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon

This was made clear by the 3.0 FAQ. (The wording of Defending has not changed)


Do you have to actively wield a weapon of defending to
use its power? Or could you hold a longsword of defending
in your left hand, not use it to attack (so you are not
actually using the two weapons) and still wield a sword in
your right hand without penalties? Or is the defending
bonus considered part of the normal parrying that happens
in the background?

Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise
feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t
use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off
hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the
penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t
actually attack with the weapon.



At the same time, while the bonus may stack with all others, I am not convinced that it stacks with itself because it is an unnamed of the same source.



I agree, that there is room to interpret it as if not stacking with itself.

Draz74
2008-02-08, 05:41 PM
How does any of this affect my Sorcerer build, who plans to defend himself very well at high levels by getting a +1 Defending/+1 Defending Quarterstaff, casting GMW on both ends, and simply using it to parry, in between his spellcasting? :smallcool:

Reel On, Love
2008-02-08, 05:44 PM
How does any of this affect my Sorcerer build, who plans to defend himself very well at high levels by getting a +1 Defending/+1 Defending Quarterstaff, casting GMW on both ends, and simply using it to parry, in between his spellcasting? :smallcool:


It punches him in the huevos, because he'd have to spend actions attacking with it to get the Defending bonuses. Just get a +1 Mithral Animated shield and get the cleric to Magic Vestment it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-08, 05:48 PM
How does any of this affect my Sorcerer build, who plans to defend himself very well at high levels by getting a +1 Defending/+1 Defending Quarterstaff, casting GMW on both ends, and simply using it to parry, in between his spellcasting? :smallcool:

Assuming you get GMW to +5 and the stacking is allowed you can in any round where the sorcerer use a full-attack action to fight defensively gain +12 to AC (+5 Defending +5 Defending +2 dodge).

Chronos
2008-02-08, 06:11 PM
Total defense gives you +4 Dodge bonus to AC. You would need to have a +5 Defending weapon (or a +2 Defending and a +3 Defending, if you use two weapon fighting) in order for an attack to be better than full defense.No, because you have to compare it to the Fighting Defensively option, which gives you +2. So a single Defending weapon of +2 or better would make fighting defensively just as good as total defense (actually better, since you'd get the same AC, but a chance to do damage as well).

And even without any magic, if you have Combat Expertise and at least +2 BAB, you're still better off fighting defensively than using total defense, since Combat Expertise also can't be used unless you actually attack.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-08, 07:09 PM
Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise
feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t
use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off
hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the
penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t
actually attack with the weapon.

So assuming you took TWF and were casting a spell/SLA with a touch attack involved, you could take a -2 to the attack roll and get your weapons's Defending AC bonus as well (assuming it's a light weapon, of course.) Am I right in thinking that?

Baron Malkar
2008-02-08, 07:38 PM
I understand that defending requires the wielder to use it but wouldnt you be using it to parry if you were not attacking per say rather than just kind of letting it hang from your hand

Roderick_BR
2008-02-09, 12:18 AM
It is not that much of a problem to me really. If you spend your action "attacking" then I see no problem granting you the extra AC.
There is nothing preventing you from attacking blindly into a square hoping that something invisible waits for your blade. :smallamused:
I would allow a PC using his defender weapons when not attacking at all. Is like walking around all day in full defense.
The actual problem is when he wants to use that, while attacking with a normal weapon.
When I tried my unarmed builds using gauntlets, I contemplated the idea, but thought that it wouldn't work, since you are not effectively in battle with the gauntlets.

deadseashoals
2008-02-09, 01:21 AM
Nonsense. A cleric with a little forsight and buffing can hit CL 20 by level 9, just 2 levels after GMW becomes available at 7.

Bead of Karma +4
Orange IWIN Stone +1
Bard casting Hymn of Praise +2
Divine Spell Power +4
Base CL of 9
CL 9+4+1+2+4 = CL20.

Hardly epic. Also, the gear needed to do this trick is pretty standard for a buff/caster/healer cleric. Probably could squeeze another +2 out of there to bring it down to cleric level 7, which is the absolute lowest to cast a 4th level spell.

Sure, if you could afford beads of karma and an orange ioun stone at character level 9.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-09, 03:34 AM
So assuming you took TWF and were casting a spell/SLA with a touch attack involved, you could take a -2 to the attack roll and get your weapons's Defending AC bonus as well (assuming it's a light weapon, of course.) Am I right in thinking that?

Yes you are, under some conditions at least. :smallamused:

To attack with a weapon and deliver a touch spell in the same round would require that you held the charge of the spell and then full-attacked on the following round.

Making a touch attack is part of casting the spell, but you cannot normally make an attack with a weapon in the same round, so you would have to hold the charge. (Quickened spells and such would be an exception)

Of course, if you do not have the TWF feat the penalties to attack are steep.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-09, 03:41 AM
I understand that defending requires the wielder to use it but wouldnt you be using it to parry if you were not attacking per say rather than just kind of letting it hang from your hand

I think the idea is that if you are using your standard action or full round action for all kinds of different things that does not involve weapons combat you are not really ready to parry with your weapons.

Likewise if I am busy kicking someone in the head and is wearing a gauntlet of defending in the hand I use for balance, that gauntlet is not really ready to fly in and block an attack, since that would compromise my balance.

If I were to be ready for using the gauntlet also, I would have to change my technique a little and take the appropriate penalties for being out of balance or whatever.