PDA

View Full Version : Settle an argument?



Admiral Squish
2008-02-08, 10:18 PM
I think I may have asked once before, but I can't find it anymore, and it's come up again.

My buddy came up with an idea. He's a wizard, and I am a meatshield. He's decided I would do better as a meatshield with eight arms. However, you can't exactly find a creature with eight arms, and so he's planning to use flesh to stone to turn me into rock, then stone shape to make me into a eight-armed thing, and finally stone to flesh to turn me back. I argue that thirty percent chance for moving structures would involve a large portion of my internal organs, and that if he really wants something with eight arms, I'll grapple a bugbear for him next battle to dominate.

Would his plan work? Is it potentially lethal? Will I keep the rest of my valuable organs? Would it be justifiable to hit him if I die?

de-trick
2008-02-08, 10:22 PM
Im not touching this with a 10ft pole

Solo
2008-02-08, 10:27 PM
DO NOT WANT!

Don't do it. Magic doesn't work that way.

UglyPanda
2008-02-08, 10:33 PM
I think the moving parts thing only applies to clockwork, but I wouldn't try it. If you can't find a monster with eight arms, then how do you plan to represent your stats? Giving yourself eight arms suddenly transforms you into a homebrewed monstrosity with however much LA your DM decides you to have.

Your friend is using you to keep himself from being squishy. Is it possible he only suggested this because he knows it'll be your character that dies and not his if it all goes wrong?

Also, are there even rules for grapple modifiers for multi-armed characters?

Jayngfet
2008-02-08, 11:12 PM
Dear squish


true resurection, cure serious wounds, bam 8 arms, now use the stuff listed in the DMG to dual wield revolvers and take a level in badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TookALevelInBadass)

Gralamin
2008-02-08, 11:17 PM
Insectoid Thri-kreen.

streakster
2008-02-08, 11:21 PM
Agree to do it if he'll permanently swap characters with you. That'll tell you if he really beleives it will work or not.

SilentNight
2008-02-08, 11:26 PM
Seems very risky. I wouldn't do it. If he insists though give yourself a +3 LA and call it done. I.E.two-armed sahuagin is LA +2, four armed sahuagin is LA +3. So two extra arms = +1 LA.

TheOOB
2008-02-08, 11:29 PM
The spell affects a creatures, or an area of stone. You are not an 8-armed creatures, you are a two armed creature, thus it would only animate you and your two arms. If you used the spell to turn to stone pieces of flesh, they would just be a set of gross fleshy things attached to you.

Nebo_
2008-02-08, 11:36 PM
Morbo says: "STONE TO FLESH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!"

Fax Celestis
2008-02-08, 11:45 PM
Seems very risky. I wouldn't do it. If he insists though give yourself a +3 LA and call it done. I.E.two-armed sahuagin is LA +2, four armed sahuagin is LA +3. So two extra arms = +1 LA.

According to Sahuagin, which also have racial features that play into that overall LA. A better judge is the "multiarmed" template from the DMG-II. It gives an extra set of arms a +4, but says that the adjustments are intentionally inflated on it and some other similar templates to prevent player abuse.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-08, 11:46 PM
Use the spell Girallon's Blessing from Spell Compendium to magically gain more arms, and call it a day.
There's a magic item that works like that in Races of the Wild, Arms of Naga, but they count as medium armor, keeping you from using a better armor.

Changing the shape of your body with that trick will only result in a horrible deformity.

Jayngfet
2008-02-09, 12:33 AM
Morbo says: "STONE TO FLESH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!"

sigged and double sigged

Quellian-dyrae
2008-02-09, 01:17 AM
Let's see, Flesh to Stone indicates that any major change to the new statue's structure counts as damage if the character is returned to flesh. Regenerate cures 4d8 + 1/level, so if you figure that the change of gaining a limb is essentially equal to the change of losing a limb then the addition of six limbs should cause you roughly 24d8 + 6/level of your mage friend. This should be sufficient to kill your character so you can replace it with something that has eight arms. So yes, it's a perfectly viable tactic.

Person_Man
2008-02-09, 02:05 PM
Fang of Lolth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207)
Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3)
Girillion's Blessing
Thri-Kreen
Anything that adds natural weapons.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-09, 02:06 PM
Fang of Lolth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207)
Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3)
Girillion's Blessing
Thri-Kreen
Anything that adds natural weapons.

Insectoid template, two-level Totemist dip...

Everyman
2008-02-09, 02:45 PM
As a DM, I would never allow this. However, I also believe that D&D is all about making creative uses of any materials and skills you have to solve a problem...and I guess this qualifies as a "problem".

If (and that's a big IF) a DM were to allow you to try this, I would suggest the following requirements to pull this off...

1) Flesh to Stone, Stone Shape, Stone to Flesh spells
2) Ranks in Craft (sculpture) and Heal
3) Non-lawful good alignment for participant or "creator"

1) Research, research, research: Have wizard go out and research the effects of manipulating the body in this way. Have him succeed on a DC 15 Heal check to figure out what steps need to be taken to preserve participant's life.

2) Get buff...sorta: Have the participant get as large as possible prior to attempting this. Magical augmentation may or may not be allowed by the DM (such as any growth spell). You are going to want to have as much "stone" to work with when shaping your participants body, lest you run out of material during creation.

3) Flesh to Stone: No explaination needed here.

4) Stone Shape: With a DC 30 Craft (sculpture) check, start shaping the statue into the form you need. Remember that your participant only has so much stone to work with, so you just can't add arms without making the rest of his body frailer.

5) Stone to Flesh: No explaination needed here.

Even with these homebrewed steps, I would still rule that the participant takes a -2 Penalty to Strength and Constitution and a -1 penalty to Fortitude saves, from having their body manipulated and moved about, as well as gains a +2 LA from the whole ordeal.

Of course, this is an off the top of my head, so not everyone might agree with it (including me, in about five or ten minutes).

Hal
2008-02-09, 02:55 PM
I wouldn't recommend it, just because Stone to Flesh is a "Save or Die" kind of spell.

Granted, you might have the cash for True Resurrection, but why gamble with your gold like that?

seedjar
2008-02-09, 02:58 PM
I agree with the others on Girallon's Blessing. Much simpler; no risk of the DM saying, "Oh yeah, that just kills you. Sorry dude."
Otherwise, I believe Tarkhan has the right idea. Cover your bases and really roll out something that represents your wizard actually sculpting functional arms into your anatomy. I think a DC 15 Heal check is very, very low if you expect the arms to actually function (neurosurgery, anyone?) and you might even include some time after the procedure to learn to use your six new limbs and thirty new digits. Maybe Int or Wis checks? I don't really like the Fort check penalty though - just do -4 to Con instead of -2 and it functions the same while being less complicated.
Props, Nebo.
~Joe

PS - Come to think of it, there should perhaps be some Dex or even Str penalty for use of the extra arms; some have got to see less use than others, unless you take to walking around on all ten limbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapoda) like some sort of lobster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hzBh0J1YFU) man. Come to think of it, why don't you just polymorph into a lobster man?

kemmotar
2008-02-09, 03:02 PM
Insectoid Thri-kreen.

That would:
a) give you six arms(thrikreen has 4 arms and insectoid adds a paid)
b) make a half insect thing into what? a 3/4 insecti thing?

Also, i would agree with Tarkahn on the whole view of the thing and was about to suggest research prior to that...But then again think of three things.
a) what would this do for you except the ability to wield 8 weapons
b) what would the penalty for it be
c) how long does it take for you to actually learn to manage the 6 new limbs

So it goes strictly into homebrew and i would dare to say that you would need to spend a feat to represent training to be actually able to use a non natural form...an invented form in fact...It would be safer to dabble magically into crossbreeding to create an 8 arm humanoid creature(kinda humanoid) and then polymorph you into it...

Ganurath
2008-02-09, 03:08 PM
Ah, your friend must have read up on my Stone Facial combo. Yeah, that thing is meant for cosmetic alterations, not attaching new limbs. Of course, one could Stone to Flesh a rock, Polymorph Any Object the flesh into the material needed for a graft...

Of course, it'd be easier to use the trick to give your character extra muscle mass, maybe natural armor from scales. Does he want a meatshield, or a guinea pig? This fellow may well be the wizard who did it. Do you want to be the next owlbear?

Devils_Advocate
2008-02-09, 04:25 PM
Stone to flesh "restores a petrified creature to its normal state". Having 8 arms is not part of your character's normal state. If your character still counts as a "petrified creature" after being stone shaped, then the spell just changes him back to normal. If he doesn't, the spell just doesn't work.

Reshaping a statue is not the same as "breaking or damaging" it, so that clause does not apply.

In any case, if your friend insists on doing this, you should demand that he try it out on a goblin or something before using it on you. Only mad scientists (or mad wizards, I suppose) use their own friends as guinea pigs.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-09, 04:28 PM
I'd say your friend could research a permanenceable level 8 or 9 spell that'd give you 6 extra arms.

But, if I were a DM, I'd allow it, but force the permanencer to take a HEAVY XP penalty. Like -100k XP.

EagleWiz
2008-02-09, 07:11 PM
Just Say NO
To Wizards who want to experiment on you.

This message brought to you by the council for a ridiculous monster based off of "A wizard did it" free D&D

:smallwink:

seedjar
2008-02-09, 10:37 PM
Just for the record, I totally want to be the next owlbear.
~Joe

Grug
2008-02-10, 12:40 PM
As you've written it, the rules say it would never work. Stone to flesh says that if the stone you're transforming was never an actual creature, it just becomes a rubbery mess of tissue. Similarly, you would be turned bac into your normal self, plus six non-functioning arm shaped GROWTHS sticking out of you, good for nothing more than flopping around and looking creepy.

seedjar
2008-02-10, 01:48 PM
Similarly, you would be turned bac into your normal self, plus six non-functioning arm shaped GROWTHS sticking out of you, good for nothing more than flopping around and looking creepy.

I would argue the new arms are also good for rotting. And attracting wild animals.
~Joe

SoD
2008-02-10, 01:55 PM
Just adressing the bit about grapple checks-there are no rules for extra arms...chitines (small sized spider things with four arms) have a +4 bonus, however, the thri-keen (medium sized insect thing) has no bonus.

Thrawn183
2008-02-10, 08:30 PM
Why not dominate a Girallon and permanency Girallon's Blessing on it?

sikyon
2008-02-10, 08:42 PM
I believe RAW stone to flesh actually allows it.


The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available.(For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.)

There is a life force avaliable, that would be the creature.

Notice how it says that a statue becomes a corpse. This would include all organs, circulatory system, nervous system, etc. Therefore, flesh to stone doesn't actually just turn stone to a mass of flesh, it actually differentiates.



EASY WAY TO FIND OUT:

Capture a goblin or some evil creature

Experiment on it, and release it either way.

If you hadn't experimented on it, it would be dead, so not totally evil act. More neutral.

ta-da find out if it works (and if your DM thinks it will work)



Otherwise, I suggest:

Flesh to stone

Craft check

Limited Wish to provide magical energy, similar to flesh golem construction.

Leon
2008-02-11, 05:27 AM
It will cost a pretty penny but, get a hold of a couple of anti magic manacles sets, a Anti magic field of some sort, a portable hole, a bag of holding, soverign glue and a deep pit (a really deep pit)

Anti magic field allows you to get the Wiz while he is sleeping and nulify any back up protections - clap the manacles on his wrists and ankles (and possibly link those)

while he is now bound, helpless and watching you drop is spell book into the bag of holding and then drop that into a portable hole

carefuly apply the glue to choice locations on the wizard and the drop him in the pit - fill the pit back in and live a stress free life

Talic
2008-02-11, 05:30 AM
More arms will not make you a better meatshield.

Only two things make effective shields. High AC and mobility, or be a cleric.

Draco Ignifer
2008-02-11, 07:26 PM
Permit me to add my voice to those saying "hideous fleshy growths." Assume that the life force permits the arms to become a permanent part of your body, rather than lumps of meat hanging from you. That's a pretty reasonable assumption, given that it somehow knows how to return your normal meats to life. Assume, also, that him stone-shaping your body and then returning it doesn't make the spell "remember" that those arms used to contain your spleen and intestines, distorting your guts to all hell and killing you rapidly. This is a less reasonable assumption. It doesn't mean that the spell will actually make bones, tendons, ligaments, and everything that you need to make those things anything more than arm-shaped lumps of flesh, vein, and nerve tissue.

Even if it does, though? You'd need three new pairs of shoulders, set inside of your body in a method that pretty much covers your rib cage, or to have them all set from the same original shoulders. This would cause your muscular system to basically go all to hell strange new bones and muscles conflict with the movements of existing ones. Dislocation and amazing stiffness rendering these arms useless would be a kind interpretation of what would happen.

Just a very, very bad idea all around.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-11, 08:40 PM
Ooh! I know!

Multiple Creatures!

1) Petrify target (you want test subjects that won't make another player angry at you....).
2) Petrify appropriate animals.
3) Play mix and Match with Stone Shape.
4) (Chained, if needed) Stone to Flesh the whole lot.

Presto! You now either have a very angry test monkey, or a very bizarre rotting corpse.

Demented
2008-02-11, 09:10 PM
Stone shape doesn't work that way! They can't do fine detail. At best, you'll have 6 extra arms that look they're a congenital defect. And, if the shape involves "moving parts" (and, while they may be on a statue at the moment, you do intend for them to be moving eventually) there's a 30% failure rate.

Though, without Spellcraft ranks, your character may need to justify his fear of this doctor's appointment in a less rational manner.

FlyMolo
2008-02-11, 09:45 PM
Stone shape doesn't work that way! They can't do fine detail. At best, you'll have 6 extra arms that look they're a congenital defect. And, if the shape involves "moving parts" (and, while they may be on a statue at the moment, you do intend for them to be moving eventually) there's a 30% failure rate.

Though, without Spellcraft ranks, your character may need to justify his fear of this doctor's appointment in a less rational manner.
Justifying your character's fear of having 6 extra arms grafted onto him? NOT a problem. Would you sign up for something like this?

As a DM, Flesh to Stone, Stone Shape, Fabricate, Stone to Flesh, and then Limited Wish should do it. Or Girallon's Blessing and then Permanency.

Inyssius Tor
2008-02-24, 04:04 PM
Permit me to add my voice to those saying "hideous fleshy growths." Assume that the life force permits the arms to become a permanent part of your body, rather than lumps of meat hanging from you. That's a pretty reasonable assumption, given that it somehow knows how to return your normal meats to life. Assume, also, that him stone-shaping your body and then returning it doesn't make the spell "remember" that those arms used to contain your spleen and intestines, distorting your guts to all hell and killing you rapidly. This is a less reasonable assumption. It doesn't mean that the spell will actually make bones, tendons, ligaments, and everything that you need to make those things anything more than arm-shaped lumps of flesh, vein, and nerve tissue.

Even if it does, though? You'd need three new pairs of shoulders, set inside of your body in a method that pretty much covers your rib cage, or to have them all set from the same original shoulders. This would cause your muscular system to basically go all to hell strange new bones and muscles conflict with the movements of existing ones. Dislocation and amazing stiffness rendering these arms useless would be a kind interpretation of what would happen.

Just a very, very bad idea all around.

I know I'm skirting the edges of the Fifth Law (if dinosaurs don't count, do threads?)--cookie for the reference, by the way--but Draco's post wins.