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Tempest Fennac
2008-02-09, 04:37 AM
I'm quite new to D&D, but I've been tinking about multi-classing for a few weeks due to some recommendations on a thread about Beguiller feats which I'd started, and I was wondering if anyone thought it was ever worthwhile (eg: I can see how a melee class taking a couple of Fighter levels for the bonus feats would be useful sometimes, but I fail to see how taking classes which cost you spellcasting lelvels in exchange for other abilities (or low level spells if you're taking levels in another magic-using class) would really be helpful due to how you're basically taking away from your initial classes best feature (I can see why some players would want to play as a Mystic Theurge, but a lot of other classes like that, such as Ultimate Magus, don't seem to be worthwhile at all).

Hecore
2008-02-09, 04:55 AM
It's generally a very bad idea to trade spell levels away. The only time it's really considered an acceptable loss is if there is a really good ability front-loaded on a PRC, or if you lose one or two casting levels over the course of a ten level PRC that gives you a ton of good abilities in exchange.

Zincorium
2008-02-09, 04:56 AM
Depends.

For melee and skill based classes, as long as the classes you're taking have a certain amount of whatever it is you're looking for, whether BAB or skill list, then you're golden. Paladins and fighters are actually notorious for being bad classes not to multiclass or PrC out of.

For casters and classes with unique features (soulknife, for example) going into any other class is going to reduce your main class features. As an example, take a wizard 8/fighter 1 and a wizard 9.

Both get the same xp, both are supposed to defeat the same challenges, but the first character is demonstratably weaker. Base attack bonus and a few extra hit points do not do much for the wizard, spells are their livelihood.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-09, 05:18 AM
I fail to see how taking classes which cost you spellcasting lelvels in exchange for other abilities (or low level spells if you're taking levels in another magic-using class) would really be helpful
Precisely. There are only very few (prestige) class levels that don't give "+1 level of spellcasting" and are nevertheless worth taking for a caster.

Interestingly, Mystic Theurge is a notably weak class because you need three levels in both sides to qualify (ok, there are some tricks around this, if your DM allows them), meaning you lose three levels from each side's casting. A wizard 3 / cleric 3 / MT 4 casts 4th-level spells on both sides, whereas a straight wiz or cleric would have 5th-level spells by then, and get 6th the next level. This difference hurts, and the MT doesn't get any class abilities to compensate.

On the other hand, Ultimate Magus and Eldritch Disciple are pretty good, since they only require one level of one of the sides to qualify. They're not as powerful as the "straight" class, but they don't hurt like the MT, and they actually get some nifty class abilities.

Saph
2008-02-09, 06:14 AM
As Zinc says, multiclassing is generally a bad idea for full casters, and a good idea for meleers and skillmonkeys.

You can make a pretty good melee character by taking one or two levels of every melee class out there, and in the case of classes like the Fighter, there's no reason not to multiclass with it. This is because most melee classes don't get very good class features, so all that really matters is feats and BAB (which you can get just as easily by multiclassing).

- Saph

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-09, 07:20 AM
Thanks for the feedback. If I'm honest, I was mainly classing the Ultimate Magus as being worse then MTs due to how MTs end up with a lot of differnt spells (eventually) rather then needing levels in 2 classes with identical spell lists.

Uthug
2008-02-09, 08:19 AM
It also matters whether your DM wants to keep track of multi-classing penalties; if he does, it wouldn't be really advisable to multi-class alot if that would mean you took xp penalties.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-09, 08:48 AM
Thanks for the feedback. If I'm honest, I was mainly classing the Ultimate Magus as being worse then MTs due to how MTs end up with a lot of differnt spells (eventually) rather then needing levels in 2 classes with identical spell lists.

Combine Beguiler with a specialist wizard banning illusion and enchantment. All bases covered :)

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-09, 09:19 AM
The problem with that is that I'd then just have tons of weak spells which probably couldn't be relied on in situations which are designed for my CR. Also, I'd lose a lot of skill points and class skills (and I fail to see who the Ultmate Magus' special features would really be worth it if I don't die before I can get the class).

Kurald Galain
2008-02-09, 09:46 AM
UM gives you essentially free metamagic. That is awesome.

Beguiler 1 / Wizard 4 / UM 10 should be seen as a wizard who is one level behind, and gets a bunch of extra skills (nice at level 1) and uses Beguiler slots for metamagic.

Note how Practiced Spellcaster (beguiler) allows you to put most of the "+1 to lowest" levels from the UM into wizard. Combine with kobold or illumian to put all of those levels into wizard, where you probably want them.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-09, 09:49 AM
How does Practiced Spellcaster convert the Beguiller level into a Wizard level? (OT, but that wouldn't work for me either because it wouldn't have anything to do with my character concept).

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-02-09, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the feedback. If I'm honest, I was mainly classing the Ultimate Magus as being worse then MTs due to how MTs end up with a lot of differnt spells (eventually) rather then needing levels in 2 classes with identical spell lists.

Besides that you only need one level of the spontaneous caster to enter ultimate magus, which means you can get in one level sooner and you'll only be behind one level on the final level before you can take ultimate magus.
A level of beguiler also nets you some extra skills so you can get useful skills like balance and tumble.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-09, 09:56 AM
I wanted to play as a Beguiller because I wanted to play a skill monkey/arcane caster, which is the main reason why I have no interest in taking other classes or PrCs unless they would allow me to progress as a skill monkey/arcanist.

Kioran
2008-02-09, 10:11 AM
I wanted to play as a Beguiller because I wanted to play a skill monkey/arcane caster, which is the main reason why I have no interest in taking other classes or PrCs unless they would allow me to progress as a skill monkey/arcanist.

All PHB2 classes, with the possible exception of the Dragon shaman, are quite strong, and very well playable solo classed as Duskblade 20 or Beguiler 20. In Core, classes have much weaker class Features or lose little, if anything, by mutliclassing unless it costs Spellcaster lvls.
In your case, playing straight Beguiler isnīt weak. Iīd take my chances.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-09, 10:17 AM
Thanks (this is a solo game, which is the main reason why I picked that class).

Chronos
2008-02-09, 03:22 PM
For Beguiler in particular, I wouldn't recommend multiclassing to anything, not even to a prestige class which advances spellcasting. So far as I know, all of the spell-advancing PrCs give only 2 or 4 skill points per level, and most of them have a completely different skill list than Beguiler, so you'd have a hard time progressing the skills which were presumably the reason you chose Beguiler over some other caster class.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-09, 07:12 PM
Beguiler is great with the Precocious Apprentice feat and going Ultimate Magus with a Specialist Mage for fueling meta magic in a game allowing a Ultimate Magus to cast higher meta spells than a comparable straight wizard normally which in itself more than makes up the losing the single spell casting level before picking up lots of utility with a large spontaneous casting spell list allowing the Specialist spells to be tweaked.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-09, 08:58 PM
How does Practiced Spellcaster convert the Beguiller level into a Wizard level?

Because the 1st, 4th and 7nd level of Ultimate Magus raise not both your spontaneous and prepared spellcasting levels, but only the one that has the lowest total caster level (and in case of a tie, your pick).

Practiced Spellcaster raises the caster level of your Beguiler side, so that it's at least as high as your Wizard side. This allows you, ideally, to use UM to take +10 levels in your best class, +7 in your worst, rather than the other way around.

Zincorium
2008-02-09, 09:03 PM
The above beguiler/wizard combo is indeed legal by RAW, but I can't help but think that it's an oversight on the designer's part, most likely stemming from the use of 'caster level' where 'levels in spellcasting class' might be more apt.

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-10, 03:08 AM
Thanks for explaining (I still agree with what Chronos said, though).

turkishproverb
2008-02-10, 03:30 AM
It's generally a very bad idea to trade spell levels away. The only time it's really considered an acceptable loss is if there is a really good ability front-loaded on a PRC, or if you lose one or two casting levels over the course of a ten level PRC that gives you a ton of good abilities in exchange.

The spell Addict Prestige class (Can't remember book) can help counteract the loss of spellcaster levels alot.

Squash Monster
2008-02-10, 04:23 AM
Generally, you never want to lose more than two levels of spellcasting ever, and each level you lose is going to have to be made up for by a lot. In most cases, the only reason why multiclassing as a caster is worth it is if it lets you qualify for a prestige class that lets you advance your casting along with the relevant abilities for the class.

If you're looking to make an arcane skillmonkey, there's two prestige classes that do it well for you. The Arcane Trickster (DMG) and the Unseen Seer (Complete Mage). I personally like AT better, but US is easier to qualify for. This leads to a build like Rogue 1 / Wizard 3 / Rogue 1 / Unseen Seer x / Arcane Trickster y. After the first level of Unseen Seer, you can pick whatever order of US and AT that you like. And yes, this works just as well, if not better, with Beguiler.

You end up losing two caster levels, which is as much as you should ever accept. In exchange, you get a bunch of interesting abilities, good skills, and lots of sneak attack dice. Sneak attack, to me, is what makes this kind of build worth it: being a caster means you can make things flatfooted very easily (Grease or Greater Invisibility) and you can sneak attack with ray spells. And almost nothing has a good flatfooted touch AC.

Chronos
2008-02-10, 02:31 PM
Sneak attack has nothing to do with skillmonkeyness, and Arcane Trickster has very little to do with skillmonkeyness. 6+int skill points a level is manageable, but 4 just isn't enough to do the job. You'd get a much better skill-monkey by just going straight Beguiler or Spellthief.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-10, 03:08 PM
in the specific case of the beguiler i would not multiclass at all.
as stated above there is little out there that will be worth your while dipping into at all.