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JellyPooga
2008-02-09, 01:07 PM
Following up on my previous thread on whether to play a Githzerai or Githyanki (which I decided on a 'zerai, by the way), I now need some advice on ideas, thoughts, suggestions and such about what Class/PrC's to give this character.

The general theme of the character is to be a sword-master (specialising in Elven Courtblade to be specific), of the "lightning fast agility fighter" kind (as opposed to the "brute force hack'n'slasher" kind).

The problem I'm having is deciding which of the many options to choose from that fit the general theme, without entering Epic Levels.

I want the character to have Uncanny Dodge (Improved is optional), Evasion and (as would probably be expected from playing a 'zerai) Weapon Finesse. Given that Monk is the Favoured Class, getting Evasion from Monk level 2 seems appropriate (given fluff) and also has the benefit of granting Wis to AC ('cos he's going unarmoured) and Combat Reflexes (amongst other stuff). Weapon Finesse can easily be gained from Swashbuckler, which along with 4+Int skills/level and Full BAB, I thought I might as well take it up to 3rd level for Insightful Strike. That's put me at level 5 already but still without Uncanny Dodge. Now I could take Barbarian or Rogue for this, but neither really fits with the image I have for this character, so I thought Scout. Only 2 levels grants me Uncanny Dodge, but 3rd level Scout nets some pretty nifty bonuses (at least they're nifty at lower levels).

So far then, before hitting PrC's, I've got a Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Scout 3, which leaves 12 pre-Epic levels to play with...not a convenient number when it come to PrC's.

As far as PrC's are concerned, Exotic Weapon Master is easy to qualify for and appropriate to the character, but given the weapon of choice, only 2 of the weapon tricks are worth having...Stunning Blow (handy given the Monk levels) and Trip Attack...this made things a little easier in that I now have 10 PrC levels to fill.

Here's the problem then...given the above 10 level class build (Feats are interchangeable for those levels and as yet undecided), I need PrC's for the other 10 levels (using LA-Buyback rules btw). All of the following are ones I have considered, but can't decide which to take and in what quantity:

Thief Acrobat - 'cos it's easy to qualify for and fits the "agile fighter" theme well.
Occult Slayer - 'cos it makes a good extension of the whole "bonded to his weapon" idea.
Kensai - goes without saying really...it's a PrC that's practically designed for a Githzerai Weapon Master (IMO).
Duellist - though not an optimal PrC, it does grant Int to AC and extension of the "Finesse" side of the character.

That's 20 levels of PrC's altogether and I only have half that to play with, not to mention the requirements for them. I also have the nagging feeling that I have missed some that also may be appropriate.

So, if you have any suggestions (along with reasons, obviously) as to what blend to make this coffee, or any other beans to add, I would appreciate it.

Cheers,
JP

Starsinger
2008-02-09, 01:19 PM
There's a feat in Tome of Battle that lets you add your dexterity modifier to melee damage instead of strength while in a Shadow Hand Stance.. so you might wanna look into Swordsage, plus this would give you wisdom to armor instead of having to take monk levels. But Tome of Battle's not for everyone.

JellyPooga
2008-02-09, 01:23 PM
...But Tome of Battle's not for everyone.

Hmm, no indeed...perhaps I should've mentioned that ToB is a no-no in my camp. I don't own it and nor do I want to (from what I've heard of it). Cheers for the suggestion though :smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2008-02-09, 01:30 PM
I'd actually recommend going Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 3 and grabbing yourself the Daring Outlaw feat before continuing up Swashbuckler. Maybe hit Kensai or Invisible Blade.

Alternatively, you could go straight monk-into-kensai and take the Unorthodox Flurry feat. Or hell, you could do the one I've found interesting: Monk 3/Paladin 3/Sun Soul Monk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050601a&page=4) 9/$Whatever_You_Want 5 (maybe Psionic Fist? Kensai?) with Serenity (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Serenity,all), Ascetic Knight (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ascetic_Knight,all), and Unorothodox Flurry (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Unorthodox_Flurry,all). Wis-to-AC, Wis-to-Saves, stack your paladin and monk levels for unarmed strike damage and smite evil abilities, in addition to all the neat burninating Sun Soul Monk stuff.

Justyn
2008-02-09, 01:33 PM
If you have the levels to spare, add a couple of Fighter; extra feats have never hurt anyone... that had them.


Hmm, no indeed...perhaps I should've mentioned that ToB is a no-no in my camp. I don't own it and nor do I want to (from what I've heard of it). Cheers for the suggestion though :smallwink:

From my experience, ToB is a very balaced book: likewise, he same people that say that ToB is unbalancing are the same kind of people that say "ZOMG psionics are sooooo broken!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!1oneoneoneeleven".

Tweekinator
2008-02-09, 01:43 PM
Maybe hit Kensai or Invisible Blade.

Noooooooooooooooo! Invisible Blade is bad! The prereqs for joining involve nonsensical feats, the class is built around two-weapon fighting with daggers, and the int to Ac bonus is capped by Invisible Blade class levels. This, along with the fact that WOTC errated the only really good thing out of the class(every attack can be with a feint) makes it a disgustingly horrible choice for any build.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-09, 01:48 PM
Noooooooooooooooo! Invisible Blade is bad! The prereqs for joining involve nonsensical feats, the class is built around two-weapon fighting with daggers, and the int to Ac bonus is capped by Invisible Blade class levels. This, along with the fact that WOTC errated the only really good thing out of the class(every attack can be with a feint) makes it a disgustingly horrible choice for any build.

It occurs to me that Invisible Blade wasn't the class I was thinking of. Shadow Blade was, from Tome of Magic.

Zincorium
2008-02-09, 02:01 PM
Noooooooooooooooo! Invisible Blade is bad! The prereqs for joining involve nonsensical feats, the class is built around two-weapon fighting with daggers, and the int to Ac bonus is capped by Invisible Blade class levels. This, along with the fact that WOTC errated the only really good thing out of the class(every attack can be with a feint) makes it a disgustingly horrible choice for any build.

1. Full BAB
2. 3D6 sneak attack dice (admittedly restricted)
3. If you have a +5 intelligence bonus, it plus some bracers of armor are excellent for a mobility based character.
4. Feinting as a free action once per round is still better than the alternative.
5. Yes, you need some throwing feats. No, it's not hurting you. Sneak attack and insightful strike still apply to ranged attacks, and making them with weapons you already have in hand is superior to drawing and putting away a different weapon.

The ideal combo with invisible blade is Whisperknife, from races of the wild.

Tweekinator
2008-02-09, 02:07 PM
1. Full BAB
2. 3D6 sneak attack dice (admittedly restricted)
3. If you have a +5 intelligence bonus, it plus some bracers of armor are excellent for a mobility based character.
4. Feinting as a free action once per round is still better than the alternative.
5. Yes, you need some throwing feats. No, it's not hurting you. Sneak attack and insightful strike still apply to ranged attacks, and making them with weapons you already have in hand is superior to drawing and putting away a different weapon.

The ideal combo with invisible blade is Whisperknife, from races of the wild.

Rogue can approximate most of those for less feats and more armor.

Zincorium
2008-02-09, 02:27 PM
Rogue can approximate most of those for less feats and more armor.

Right, because, y'know, 2 points of BAB are just a skill point away. Oh wait, no, no they're not.

Improved feint, which is the approximation you're talking about, has combat expertise as a prerequisite. So that's two of the three you'd have for invisible blade. And you're still only partially making up for it.

Bleeding wound is an ambush-style feat all on it's own. So it's worth the third feat spent, even if you weren't getting anything worthwhile with the prerequisite feats (and they're hardlythat useless).

And more armor?
If you've got four points of intelligence, you break even. If you've got five, you're ahead of a rogue who spent as much money on a magical chain shirt as you did on bracers of armor.


So I think you're not doing the work to actually back up your claim.

Tweekinator
2008-02-09, 04:03 PM
Right, because, y'know, 2 points of BAB are just a skill point away. Oh wait, no, no they're not.

Well, that sarcasm was hardly needed.


Improved feint, which is the approximation you're talking about, has combat expertise as a prerequisite. So that's two of the three you'd have for invisible blade. And you're still only partially making up for it.

Bleeding wound is an ambush-style feat all on it's own. So it's worth the third feat spent, even if you weren't getting anything worthwhile with the prerequisite feats (and they're hardlythat useless).

They both are indeed that useless as are Improved Feint, Combat Expertise, and Bleeding Wound.


And more armor?
If you've got four points of intelligence, you break even. If you've got five, you're ahead of a rogue who spent as much money on a magical chain shirt as you did on bracers of armor.

So, if I ensure I have an 18 in Int and spend oodles on Bracers of Armor, then once I have 4-5 levels in a horrible prestige class I can break even with a base, generic rogue who is not(unlike this character) specialized in improving his AC and taking every crappy feat he can. And let's not forget, in your example, the rogue can get ahead using his Combat Expertise.



So I think you're not doing the work to actually back up your claim.

No, you. :smallsmile:

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind the class, I just think that the designers/editors over at WOTC gave it the shaft a few too many times and the internal bleeding started; unable to get the Invisible Blade to a healer in time, WOTC just left the still-warm corpse in the gutter for others to look at.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-09, 04:19 PM
Can't sugest much, but I have to give all of my approval for Kensai. A KARACH blade will give POWER.

Zincorium
2008-02-09, 04:26 PM
Well, that sarcasm was hardly needed.

I'm not getting through to you, but the sarcasm helps to vent without getting mod-whacked.



They both are indeed that useless as are Improved Feint, Combat Expertise, and Bleeding Wound.

By what standards? Which feats are you comparing them to? Does the theoretical character have enough for both the prerequisites and whatever feats we're looking at?

You claim they're useless, show why. Assertion without evidence isn't worth reading.


So, if I ensure I have an 18 in Int and spend oodles on Bracers of Armor, then once I have 4-5 levels in a horrible prestige class I can break even with a base, generic rogue who is not(unlike this character) specialized in improving his AC and taking every crappy feat he can. And let's not forget, in your example, the rogue can get ahead using his Combat Expertise.

If you spend the EXACT SAME AMOUNT on a magical (not even mithril) chain shirt as you do on bracers of armor, your rogue has the same armor class. The same. And no penalty on skills. Combat expertise requires you to take a penalty on attack, in addition to the loss of 2 points of base attack.

If you can't be bothered to compare prices with the DMG, why are you even arguing this?


No, you. :smallsmile:

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind the class, I just think that the designers/editors over at WOTC gave it the shaft a few too many times and the internal bleeding started; unable to get the Invisible Blade to a healer in time, WOTC just left the still-warm corpse in the gutter for others to look at.

You haven't actually demonstrated any verification of your claims, DO SO if you want me to take you seriously (I've pretty much given up on you taking me seriously, you don't appear to actually be processing what I've posted).

+1 to hit with a weapon you WILL be using?
+1 to hit and damage within the likely range of your weapons?
Cutting the penalty to hit from range by half?

Oh yes, these are terrible, terrible things.

sonofzeal
2008-02-09, 04:30 PM
I'll just chime in and say that my one Invisible Blade experiment was a rousing success, even though I made several concessions in the interest of flavour (Nevada-tan (http://www.djskyler.com/pics/Nevada-Tan.jpg)), including leaving the offhand completely empty. Still, at lvl 20 she could solo a Titan without much trouble. The only concession is reversing that stupid nerf and letting Feint apply to all attacks in a full-attack. With that ruling in place, the class becomes solidly decent, and synergizes well with a number of others including Swashbuckler, Rogue, Swordsage, Monk, and others. I even had four or five levels of Duelist on my build (although the AC stacking is questionable; post ToB I'm going to rebuild her with Swordsage instead).

All in all, I think it's an unfairly maligned PrC. My in-game experience with it is solidly positive. Tweekinator, have YOU ever played one?

Oh, and since daggers can be thrown, and being able to throw your signature weapon well is a good thing, I totally don't mind the entry feats.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-09, 07:04 PM
So far then, before hitting PrC's, I've got a Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Scout 3, which leaves 12 pre-Epic levels to play with...not a convenient number when it come to PrC's.
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Psionic Fist or War Mind -10 could be nice for some Psionics with 2 levels capped with a dip into Sword Sage for some foundation maneuvers with an Initiator level -10 which could form the basic for a dip into Warblade-1 for some high level maneuvers with Rapid Recovery with an Initiator level - 10.

3 level dip into Factotum could be pretty strong with a few Font of Inspiration feats.

Possibly Rogue - 3, Ninja -1, Assassin -1+ X-5 for some Sneak Attack.

AslanCross
2008-02-09, 09:45 PM
Hmm, no indeed...perhaps I should've mentioned that ToB is a no-no in my camp. I don't own it and nor do I want to (from what I've heard of it). Cheers for the suggestion though :smallwink:

That's seriously too bad, I'd think that taking Swordsage is the easiest way to meet your character concept. It's worth a try.

Tweekinator
2008-02-10, 01:25 PM
By what standards? Which feats are you comparing them to? Does the theoretical character have enough for both the prerequisites and whatever feats we're looking at?

You claim they're useless, show why. Assertion without evidence isn't worth reading.

Alright, then. Oooo, Improved Feint, too bad I have a friend who can flank for me. And he doesn't even need a single feat to be there!

You yourself implied Combat Expertise was worthless, I don't need to bother with that.

And Bleeding Wound. Looks pretty nice, doesn't it? Too bad it would be better to deal all that sneak attack and help end the fight early, maybe saving your buddies from dying.


If you spend the EXACT SAME AMOUNT on a magical (not even mithril) chain shirt as you do on bracers of armor, your rogue has the same armor class. The same. And no penalty on skills. Combat expertise requires you to take a penalty on attack, in addition to the loss of 2 points of base attack.

If you can't be bothered to compare prices with the DMG, why are you even arguing this?

Because stats are priceless. If you can assume an 18-20 Int in addition to a decent/good Dex, then I can assume a 30+ Dex score. Isn't assuming high stats everywhere fun?




You haven't actually demonstrated any verification of your claims, DO SO if you want me to take you seriously (I've pretty much given up on you taking me seriously, you don't appear to actually be processing what I've posted).

+1 to hit with a weapon you WILL be using?
+1 to hit and damage within the likely range of your weapons?
Cutting the penalty to hit from range by half?

Oh yes, these are terrible, terrible things.

I never complained about the Weapon Focus requirement; just the retarded ranged ones.

+1 to hit and damage and cutting the range penalty in half and all I have to do is throw away the weapon my entire class mechanics are based on, leaving me unarmed? OMG! How could I have thought throwing my weapon(which by now is probably magical) to the guy/thing I'm fighting would be a bad thing? That is awesome; thank you so much for opening my eyes to this wondrous new way of disarming myself! I get +1 to hit and damage! Totally worth it! The prestige class will even progress this unique and effective method, making me even better at it! Oh wait, it won't? You mean I just lost my weapon because I wanted +1 to hit and damage? And now he's using my magic dagger against me? And he's keeping a hold on it as he's stabbing me?

The ranged feat prereqs make no sense for the class. Just because they are "useful" or "neat" does not make them in any way appropriate. How about Toughness? Everyone needs hitpoints, right? It's useful, right? Oh no, it's not and would make a retarded monkey weep if it was a prereq for the Invisible Blade class.

You should calm down Z; we are talking about different opinions on a D&D class, no reason to get angry. :smallbiggrin:


And sonofzeal: Yes, I have played one, before the errata came out. I loved the character and had a blast playing him. That doesn't mean the class is great. It doesn't mean its greatest strength wasn't errata'd away while keeping nonsensical yet "nice to have" feats as prereqs. You yourself said you had to alter the class to make it good. The errata counts as the RAW once it's out. If you need to houserule a class to make it playable, something's wrong with it.

sonofzeal
2008-02-10, 02:01 PM
And sonofzeal: Yes, I have played one, before the errata came out. I loved the character and had a blast playing him. That doesn't mean the class is great. It doesn't mean its greatest strength wasn't errata'd away while keeping nonsensical yet "nice to have" feats as prereqs. You yourself said you had to alter the class to make it good. The errata counts as the RAW once it's out. If you need to houserule a class to make it playable, something's wrong with it.
I'd propose that the flaw is in the ruling, not the class. The class was obviously intended to use TWF and to fight in arenas or similar areas where you can't count of flanking for your Sneak Attack. I think it's obvious that the class was intended to have feint apply for its full attack. The ruling on the other hand, seems intended to prevent Rogue+Marshal abuses. Hence, I see adding the Invisible Blade as an exception to the rule as totally legit via RAI. Yes, yes, I know RAI is inherantly unknowable, but the class's flavour text and mechanic all seem to suggest it was intended to be used that way.

As to the feats - yeah, it was originally a 10 level PrC, which I happen to have the text for. Far Shot is a bonus feat at lvl4, and there's a lvl7 ability that increases throwing distance even further. Instead, there's a requirement for Weapon Finesse on the class. There's also some nice AoO stuff, including the ability to take an AoO every time an adjacent enemy is hit by an ally, and to feint as a free action on an AoO once per turn. Oh, and Bleeding tiers up. Anyway, point is that Invisible Blades are supposed to be throwers as well as stabbers. The fact that throwing skills are now relegated to the requirements is a shame, but hardly "nonsensical". Frustrating, I'll grant.

Tweekinator
2008-02-10, 02:07 PM
I'd propose that the flaw is in the ruling, not the class. The class was obviously intended to use TWF and to fight in arenas or similar areas where you can't count of flanking for your Sneak Attack. I think it's obvious that the class was intended to have feint apply for its full attack. The ruling on the other hand, seems intended to prevent Rogue+Marshal abuses. Hence, I see adding the Invisible Blade as an exception to the rule as totally legit via RAI. Yes, yes, I know RAI is inherantly unknowable, but the class's flavour text and mechanic all seem to suggest it was intended to be used that way.

As to the feats - yeah, it was originally a 10 level PrC, which I happen to have the text for. Far Shot is a bonus feat at lvl4, and there's a lvl7 ability that increases throwing distance even further. Instead, there's a requirement for Weapon Finesse on the class. There's also some nice AoO stuff, including the ability to take an AoO every time an adjacent enemy is hit by an ally, and to feint as a free action on an AoO once per turn. Oh, and Bleeding tiers up. Anyway, point is that Invisible Blades are supposed to be throwers as well as stabbers. The fact that throwing skills are now relegated to the requirements is a shame, but hardly "nonsensical". Frustrating, I'll grant.

Yeah, I've seen the original class proposed as well. If I remember correctly, WOTC split it up to make the Master Thrower and Invisible Blade.

I too, am in total favor of excepting the Invisible Blade from that feinting ruling, and agree wholeheartedly that it was designed as a double dagger wielding arena combatant. However, since they did away with the throwing abilities, they should have also done away with the throwing/ranged prereqs as they now(in the context of the class) make no sense.

Innis Cabal
2008-02-10, 02:34 PM
Alright, then. Oooo, Improved Feint, too bad I have a friend who can flank for me. And he doesn't even need a single feat to be there!

I feel i should commment on this first......
You know...sometimes your friend might just not be there....What then? Guess you could have used that feat huh, its to bad your alone as a rogue agaist an oppoent without your flank bonus and no sneak attack.

Next

+1 to hit and damage and cutting the range penalty in half and all I have to do is throw away the weapon my entire class mechanics are based on, leaving me unarmed? OMG! How could I have thought throwing my weapon(which by now is probably magical) to the guy/thing I'm fighting would be a bad thing? That is awesome; thank you so much for opening my eyes to this wondrous new way of disarming myself! I get +1 to hit and damage! Totally worth it! The prestige class will even progress this unique and effective method, making me even better at it! Oh wait, it won't? You mean I just lost my weapon because I wanted +1 to hit and damage? And now he's using my magic dagger against me? And he's keeping a hold on it as he's stabbing me?
A simple returning ability makes your whole argument moot. If your going to keep on the throw route with magical daggers.....you'd buy it, or you have a right to get stabbed by your own weapon and die. Second, to use your weapon agaist you, the enemy must forgo his own, and in alot of cases thats a much better option, and many of them wont have the same abilities or even proficancies with your weapon you do.....argument 2 is now void.


You should calm down Z; we are talking about different opinions on a D&D class, no reason to get angry.
Really just poking at him because your getting angry, bad show

On the topic at hand....Most things i'd say have been mentioned but id say Kensai would be the best option

Tweekinator
2008-02-10, 03:04 PM
I feel i should commment on this first......
You know...sometimes your friend might just not be there....What then? Guess you could have used that feat huh, its to bad your alone as a rogue agaist an oppoent without your flank bonus and no sneak attack.

So....I should take a feat, as a rogue, "just in case"? That's a poor argument for a feat's usefulness.


Next

A simple returning ability makes your whole argument moot. If your going to keep on the throw route with magical daggers.....you'd buy it, or you have a right to get stabbed by your own weapon and die. Second, to use your weapon agaist you, the enemy must forgo his own, and in alot of cases thats a much better option, and many of them wont have the same abilities or even proficancies with your weapon you do.....argument 2 is now void.

Yes, because we will spend our hard-earned killing money on a returning enchantment(or two) when we took a class that is based around two-weapon melee.

Really? You thought that the suggestion of an opponent using the dagger you threw at him instead of his own weapon was anything but a facetious exaggeration? And then you used it in your counterpoint? Really?


Really just poking at him because your getting angry, bad show

To be fair, I was not the one who resorted to insults and venting "to avoid getting mod-whacked" when someone disagreed with my opinion of a class. I just use sarcasm liberally.:smallwink:

And I meant it about not getting angry; it's an internet argument about a D&D character class, not anything real.

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-10, 03:43 PM
I would like to second the Rogue/Swash buckler -daring outlaw.

A PrC you might find interesting, albeit pre req intensive is the Psychic Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d). You can use the ardent and Practiced manifestor to help with the pre reqs.

Another thought: Consider using Iaijutsu, more stylish than sneak attack, albeit from OA and would need some homebrew to be used with a court blade I bet.

On the invisible blade note:
Pre Reqs: there are a lot of them, dips in fighter are needed, and some pre reqs don't make sense unless you take some Master Thrower.

Int to AC: Kind of Meh to me, since you give up enhancing light armor, which is useful beyond measure. Sword Sage Wisdom to AC is a better pick. But this ability is useful, unlike some of the others.

Sneak Attack with only daggers: Cool for the twf knife fighters out there, and surly what the class is based on, but restricting it to knives hurts a bit.

Improved Feint: Not a good feat. Feinting in combat is difficult: Bluff vs BAB + Sense Motive... warrior types will have the BAB to match up your skill points without even thinking about it and casters will probably have ranks in sense motive. Penalty to feint non humanoids... >.<

Bleeding Wounds: A horrible class ability. The rogue, and subsequently invisible blades are ambusher, deals damage quick and drops the enemy. They are fragile, combat for them should not last more than 2 rounds without considering retreat (if you are still alive). You should never opt to reduce your sneak attack damage to its lowest possible damage for damage over time. Not to mention one cure minor wounds and you did absolutely nothing. Now if you had the AC to beat someone in 1v1 and you are just showing off, then yes bleeding wounds is fun... but in real combat roll the dice.

Feint as a free action: This was the purpose of taking the class, free actions woo, every attack has a possibility of sneak attack... that is pre errata. I don't know why they changed it, but bumping this down to 1 per round really killed the class. Surprising riposte fixes this (thank the gods)... but you need to spend more feats, and the degree of success is not that great.

So what is better:
Lion Totem Barbarian 1(Complete Champion) and Neraph's Charge (Planar Handbook). What this nets you an auto flat footing charge in which you can pounce. You can use this once per enemy per encounter. You drop the foe and move on.

Greater invisibility... UMD it if you have to, for the enemies that won't drop after a single charge.

Innis Cabal
2008-02-10, 03:54 PM
So....I should take a feat, as a rogue, "just in case"? That's a poor argument for a feat's usefulness.

Wonder why the feat was even made in the first place.....? Huh.....options are neat.


[/quote]Yes, because we will spend our hard-earned killing money on a returning enchantment(or two) when we took a class that is based around two-weapon melee.[/quote]

Its clearly not built just for two handed melee if it gives you the option to throw your daggers and reward you for it. As for spending your hard earned money on returning propertie, well you dont have to, and thus have to pick them up. Its your choice....again...options are neat.


Really? You thought that the suggestion of an opponent using the dagger you threw at him instead of his own weapon was anything but a facetious exaggeration? And then you used it in your counterpoint? Really?

Actually, since sarcasm is hard to read, and the fact you seemed to use it in your argument against the validity of the abilty as a whole. Yes, yes i did. Since saying that without any indication in the break of your seriousness would seem to point out untill mentioned as a poor idea, you really did mean it as you wrote it. But thats me assuming things, and you know what they say about that.


To be fair, I was not the one who resorted to insults and venting "to avoid getting mod-whacked" when someone disagreed with my opinion of a class. I just use sarcasm liberally. And I meant it about not getting angry; it's an internet argument about a D&D character class, not anything real.

Never he said was in the right on that, but replying in kind is hardly the way to get "venting to avoid god modding to stop" Plus, yes its nothing real, making me wonder why you are getting defensive. Being a bit of a hypocrit repsonding to your respose, i cant say im in the right either /shrug

Also

A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
I hope thats not what your throwing around....that would simply be rude, and would make people responding to you less then kindly a little more acceptable.

Tweekinator
2008-02-10, 05:46 PM
Wonder why the feat was even made in the first place.....? Huh.....options are neat.

Its clearly not built just for two handed melee if it gives you the option to throw your daggers and reward you for it. As for spending your hard earned money on returning propertie, well you dont have to, and thus have to pick them up. Its your choice....again...options are neat.


Actually, since sarcasm is hard to read, and the fact you seemed to use it in your argument against the validity of the abilty as a whole. Yes, yes i did. Since saying that without any indication in the break of your seriousness would seem to point out untill mentioned as a poor idea, you really did mean it as you wrote it. But thats me assuming things, and you know what they say about that.


Alright then, sorry about the stealth sarcasm, it was obvious to me.

My point about Improved Feint was that it seems to have very limited usefulness, so much so that when choosing feats as a rogue, I would never even consider it. But then, there will be that rare game/character that uses it, validating its existence.

And my point about the ranged feat prereqs is that while they are nice to have if that rare situation ever arises, they should not be requirements for what is, based on the class's abilities, a melee class.

Bam! Sarcasm free. :smallbiggrin:

ChaosDefender24
2008-02-10, 09:07 PM
ToB for Shadow Blade won't work because the feat only works with Shadow Blade weapons, which the Courtblade isn't.