Scariest Theory Ever

[BURNhollywoodBURN]

I came up with this theory on the way home from school.
Please, if you found this religiously offensive, I'm sorry, I don't mean to disprove anything. I am, in fact, a committed Jew, so please, just don't take offense to this.
Also, note that I do not fully believe that this theory exists, so ignore all verbs implying that it will.

So basically, here's what it is. Many say that we are going to wipe ourselves out. I don't fully disagree with this, in fact I'm leaning more towards the belief that something like this (http://www.endofworld.net/) will happen. Anyway, if we do, not everyone will die. There will be a group of survivors, who obviously do not have much and are close to dying. They will realize that they must save the human race, so (assuming they're male and female alike) they will reproduce. Soon, old generations will die out, giving birth to new ones. These new humans will lose all traces of what our culture and society was like. They may not even know our language. They will forget everything. They will develop a being to turn to, maybe something like God. (That's the religiously controversial part of that. I'm sorry.) They will then start growing into a huge population. They will develop new cultures and societies, invent many things vital to their survival, and then almost remake the entire Earth. Land will be developed, cities will be conquered, so on, so forth. They could even wipe themselves out after a while. This leads to a scary thought:
(spoilered for effect)
This has already happened.
Who knows? Maybe, in a thousand years, someone will post something on the internet talking about a scary thing they thought of on the way home from school.
:wink:

[JasonDoomsblade]

What the HELL made you think this up?

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

...

Nice. I like it. A psycho-theory for the ages.

"This will be the sixth time Zion has been destroyed."

[Pandaren]

It doesn't seem that scary to me. One of the issues they talked about on "Life After Humans" most human things have already rotted away after 200 years.

[BURNhollywoodBURN]

What the HELL made you think this up?
You know what? I have no idea. Just like, oh, let's say, ALL THE OTHER THINGS I MAKE UP.

[rickvoid]

I'm only gonna post this one thing, and ignore the thread thereafter.

Dumbest.
Flash.
Movie.
Ever.

:smallyuk:

[Tempest Fennac]

I've heard this theory before (it seems to have been what happened to the inhabitant of Atlantis and Mu assuming that they existed). All things considered, I can;t see why it sholdn't happen again.

[Spiryt]

I agree that certainly someone already thopught this up, long ago. Maybe it even has it's scientific name or something.

Anyway, what's so scary aboout it?

(Flash was idiotic, BTW)

[Pandaren]

Forgot a random fact to go along with this.....

If every human died on Earth at this very moment, (Thats almost 7 billion peoeple) only five people would be preserved.

[Jae]

I'm going to have to emphasize the THIS HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Therefore, that seems like the best outcome to me. As opposed to being entirely wiped out, which could happen just as easily. Honestly, there would be no guarantee that the few people who survived would feel such a strong will power to continue on without any real hope. If they were to, how would that be scary? Yes, society as we know it now may change, but society as we know it now is also a mess. And, we won't be around to see it. The least we could hope for is that humanity at least would continue on.

But, if it didn't, it wouldn't affect us anyways.

And, wasn't it this same phenomenon that eventually ended in the society we'd now be afraid to lose??

[Groundhog]

It's kind of funny you mentioned that you're a committed Jew, because there is actually a rabbinic opinion that says almost exactly what you said.

[KindaChang]

There is almost a continuous discovery of hominid fossils starting about 2,400,000 years ago. Before that, the family hominidae had not arisen. There are no past civilizations of homo sapiens that wiped themselves out. The only, only way for them to have completely eliminated all traces of themselves would have been to use so much force that there would have been mass extinctions around the globe. There is no evidence for mass extinctions (10% or more of the existing genuses dissappearing) in the last 2,400,000 years. The most recent >10% genus extinction was 50 million years ago.

I suppose you could argue that the on going Holocene extinction event (beginning approximatley 9-13kya and continuing to today) is a mass extinction, but in comparison to the events that should accompany the dissapearance of an global civilization with absolutely NO evidence for it remaining today would have a far faster rate of extinction.

Rest easy, the Earth isn't part of the Wheel of Time.

[Sean92k]

The thought is only scary because no one wants to die. If you don't care about dying them you should be fine. I'll explain. Everyone's afraid of dying, but if someone remembers you, its not that scary because you still exist in some form. But, if no one could possible remember you, then you're really dead and no one wants that. Those who don't care about dying, then you just wasted your time. :smallbiggrin:

[Jae]

@ sean.

How logical is such a fear, though?? I suppose it depends on your view of the afterlife or lackthereof. Assuming, though, that you simply cease to exist entirely after death..you won't really be aware of whom does or does not remember you. And, assuming you do exist in some form after death, you neednt worry about being remembered.

I was assuming it's simply the mystery of death in general that we fear. (When each aspect is isolated, though, it seems more unreasonable.)

[Dallas-Dakota]

I saw this documentary about something like this once.
What would happen if a meteorite of around the same size would hit around the same place?
Very simplified answer :
America = dead, the impact and some short following effects will kill everybody in America(Yes, North and South America)
Africa = some tribes would survive in a deep cave but their supplies won´t last long enough, they die. dead.
Hawai(and surrounding islands) : Shelter in a cave, have 5% chance of finding a group of people, the surviving population is just not big enough to support themselves.
Europe : A bit more detailed, check spoiler. And China and Japan(the only surviving from Asia)

Everybody would die except people living near an ocean or sea, from the climate alone. But even near the shoreline almost nobody is there, they begin to travel to seek out other people and mountains near the shoreline, where it is most bearable.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o135/legolas-maxx/Mapofeurope-survival.png
The blue line is a titanic tsunami and where it will hit(people there are dead)
Dark green dots are where people could have survived the ashrain and extreme heat.(like the sewers of Paris)
The dots in The Netherlands and Germany are there becouse there are some underground mines which are extremely wel preserved, deep enough and some people actually live there(not to deep obviously)
Mountain ranges near the shore with a probablity of deep caverns/mines. near the shoreline, are liveable.
The yellow lines are groups moving to find others and support.
Orange dots are where groups meet up and cities are founded.
The smaller yellow line is a route with later small cities
China and Japan.
Japan and China map difference : The large orange thingeys in the China Japan map are where cities will be founded, normal orange dots are meet.
Things mean the same again :
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o135/legolas-maxx/ChinaandJapan-survival.jpg

The China Japan thingey is what I think would happen there, the europe thingey is from the Documentary.
Ehm....Australia.....Dead:smallamused:

And this is way not the scariest theory ever, that one involves mindflayers,Mind flayers giving thumbs up in the background, torturing-addicted alliens and more...

[blackspeeker]

Rod Serling beat you to it, in a little place called, The Twilight Zone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probe_7,_Over_and_Out

[SurlySeraph]

As KindaChang pointed out, the fossil record says no. But it's a nice premise for fiction, anyway - Wheel of Time, a couple Isaac Asimov books, and a few other things have used it.

[ForzaFiori]

There is almost a continuous discovery of hominid fossils starting about 2,400,000 years ago. Before that, the family hominidae had not arisen. There are no past civilizations of homo sapiens that wiped themselves out. The only, only way for them to have completely eliminated all traces of themselves would have been to use so much force that there would have been mass extinctions around the globe. There is no evidence for mass extinctions (10% or more of the existing genuses dissappearing) in the last 2,400,000 years. The most recent >10% genus extinction was 50 million years ago.

I suppose you could argue that the on going Holocene extinction event (beginning approximatley 9-13kya and continuing to today) is a mass extinction, but in comparison to the events that should accompany the dissapearance of an global civilization with absolutely NO evidence for it remaining today would have a far faster rate of extinction.

Rest easy, the Earth isn't part of the Wheel of Time.

here's the thing though. an ending like the one in the flash movie would probably seriously **** the earth. for all we know, it could screw with the axis of the earth, and cause it to shift. what is now the bottom of the ocean could have, at one point, been the land that people lived on. Or the Arctic/antarctic could have once been plains people lived on. There may be fossils there that prove this theory. For all we know, when we experience this cataclysmic event, the earth shifts, the seas move, and the few remaining people set up a city at the bottom of the Pacific.

come to think of it, thats what happened in David Gemmels "Waylander" series...probably where the idea popped into my head.

[sheepofoblivion]

... I don't really see how its that scary, and I although don't like says so get scared pretty easy...

[Icewalker]

I like it, and it is, at first glance, logically correct. Kind of reminds me of the sci-fi book I'm writing.

Only one hole, which has already been brought up: it can't have already happened or we would have some evidence. We'd be able to tell something, particularly what with the evidence that we evolved from other beings.

[LightWraith]

Nah, you all are simply not thinking big enough :smallcool:

There is a Physics theory that our personal Big Bang wasn't the first... nor will it be the last.

The idea is that the universe will continue to expand to a certain point, then experience a Big Crunch, slamming everything back together. Then there would be another Big Bang, and the whole cycle would begin again.

So, there is a chance that someone like us has had this conversation before, and will again. It would just be on a MUCH longer time line than that proposed here :smallbiggrin:

Here's a link to the abstract (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/296/5572/1436?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=Steinhardt+and+Turok&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT) for those interested, you'd need an account to read the whole paper.

[KindaChang]

here's the thing though. an ending like the one in the flash movie would probably seriously **** the earth. for all we know, it could screw with the axis of the earth, and cause it to shift. what is now the bottom of the ocean could have, at one point, been the land that people lived on. Or the Arctic/antarctic could have once been plains people lived on. There may be fossils there that prove this theory. For all we know, when we experience this cataclysmic event, the earth shifts, the seas move, and the few remaining people set up a city at the bottom of the Pacific.

come to think of it, thats what happened in David Gemmels "Waylander" series...probably where the idea popped into my head.


The thing to remember is that the earth is a 5,973,600,000,000,000,000,000(yes, that's 17 0s)-tonne ball of iron. Further, any event that could significantly alter the momentum of that massive cause a 90% or more genus mass extinction event, which would be visible in the fossil record of aquatic species. Keep in mind that the asteroid/meteor that possibly killed the dinosaurs sparked off an approximately 50% genus extinction and did not impact the momentum of the earth in any significant way.
Now, the one, ONE possible way is for our measuring of earth's age to be wrong by half and the earth actually be somewhere around 9 billion or so years old and the first civilization unleashed such an incredibly powerful holocaust that it reduced the surface of the earth to molten slag. THAT would erase all possible fossil evidence.
Personally, having had experience with recovering various kinds of fossils (I spent a summer officially as a student, but unofficially as free hard labor on a site in the coast of south africa looking into early hominid sea exploitative civilizations) to very much hold the idea that any indication of this happening would be recorded indirectly in the fossil record.

[Gaelbert]

@ sean.

How logical is such a fear, though?? I suppose it depends on your view of the afterlife or lackthereof. Assuming, though, that you simply cease to exist entirely after death..you won't really be aware of whom does or does not remember you. And, assuming you do exist in some form after death, you neednt worry about being remembered.

I was assuming it's simply the mystery of death in general that we fear. (When each aspect is isolated, though, it seems more unreasonable.)

True. But the fear is in the here and now, not after we die. We are afraid right now that no oone will be able to attach our name to the changes we make on the world. We are worried tha our name will be forever lost and forgotten. We are worried that our entire life was just a waste of time. This anxiety might even be tied in with survival instincts, making sure that our genes are passed on and the species continues. And who ever said that fears were supposed to be logical?

[Jae]

haha soo "gaelburt" :smallamused:

I was expecting somebody to point out such a thing. No, fear isn't and has never been logical. But, to some extent, does that mean we can't work fear out WITH logic? At this point in time, shouldn't we be above that? Or, in the least, try to be?

And if that is the true fear I think I might just be dissapointed with society. (Shocker.) It shouldn't matter, our names, I mean. It's the ideas, the acts, that actually count toward anything. I know some people may be so pretentious to care whether their name is attached, but not the whole of the population. I think the fear is simply that life stops. Nobody wants to believe we only get one chance, because we've messed it up quite nicely.

Off-topic, though. I'd touch on my original point, but I hardly remember it anyways.

[Brickwall]

1. What does this imply? As far as I can tell, nothing. We're all gonna die. Big whoopity shiitake mushrooms. I already knew that. Actually, I think it'd be fsking sweet. Mostly because I have been collecting rudimentary skills and knowledge that could jumpstart the new civilization. It's seriously one of my goals in life to possess the ability to bring civilization back from a disaster-imposed dark age. If this happens, I want in on it. Bring it.

2. I think that, if we can unearth records of creatures that predate the dinosaurs and lived in few areas, we could find out about world-spanning species that affected everything they touched, and created all kinds of materials that would stand up to wear much more than bones. Even indirectly, there'd have to be something, unless they lived in the molten center of the planet. Or intentionally erased themselves, but that's almost as silly as lava beings. Almost.

[Fester]

its been done before

[Syka]

This...doesn't really frighten me. Why should it? We all die anyway, it's bound to happen. The only certain thing in life is death. So what if we all wipe each other out and then a new civilization arises? It'd be interesting to see, but it doesn't change the fact everyone dies anyway.

Cheers,
Syka

[Metal Head]

So wait....oh god, I think I just figured out the scariest part of this. The world has been tainted by the curse of rap more than once before.

[Syka]

So wait....oh god, I think I just figured out the scariest part of this. The world has been tainted by the curse of rap more than once before.

You, sir, win this thread. :)

Cheers,
Syka

[Volug]

So wait....oh god, I think I just figured out the scariest part of this. The world has been tainted by the curse of rap more than once before.

I would sig that if my sig had room:smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

If I'm honest, I'm that bothered about dying anyway to to the fact that I really don't like being a human (I'd be more concerned about surviving a huge disaster such as a meteor strike or pollshift due to how I would probably take a while to actually die unless I killed myself. Assuming I didn't die, I'd really hate living in a primitive society).

[GrassyGnoll]

Isn't that kind of the premise of Planet of the Apes?

Anyway as far as scary theories go I was afraid that either horrible monsters were slowly killing off everyone I knew and wearing their skin or I'd wake up and everyone'd speech Dutch except for me, and I had just kind of missed it for all these years.

Of course these theories were borne of my habit to overlook things like mannerisms and details...

Edit: Tiny ninjas, everywhere

[Shraik]

Well, could the fall of the roman empire be considered this happening at a smaller scale. I mean, the Roman Empire fell because it had grown to large and had divided into two empires. Latin had become Dead and Diverged into Italian, Spanish, French, Portugese, and Romanian. The eastern half of the empire had become the Byzantine Empire. The basic Religion of the Empire had become Chrisitianity. So In a sense, this has happened, just at a smaller scale and to less of an extent.

[Aramil Liadon]

Impossible. The current society has used up the vast majority of readily available energy. Oil, coal, and peat, primarily. It would take a new society an extremely long time to produce an industrial revolution, if it is indeed possible.
Furthermore, there is no evidence of past cities; all of the metals and other mineral resources have to be mined. If there were a previous civilization, this would not be the case.

Have I sufficiently crushed your hopes and dreams?

[Brickwall]

Impossible. The current society has used up the vast majority of readily available energy. Oil, coal, and peat, primarily. It would take a new society an extremely long time to produce an industrial revolution, if it is indeed possible.

We would BECOME the oil, coal, and peat, my friend. That much is obvious. :smallamused:

I wanna get fought over in a war!

[Zombie pixe]

haha, you selfish sod :smalltongue:

me too! fight over us :smallconfused:

[Aramil Liadon]

Well, I suppose, but how much of a timeframe are we talking about? It takes a heck of a long time to decompose like that. Any wouldn't some legends survive? Or is that what Cthulu really is?
Either way, I can't fight over you without someone to fight against. I nominate the zombie, because Brickwall is far too skilled for me.

[Telonius]

Something like this actually has already happened. Just on a local level, not on a global level. "Collapse," a book by Jared Diamond, examines various cases of human societies collapsing into oblivion, or at least into a much less powerful state than they were in. Easter Island is one example given, but there are a lot of other tribes and kingdoms that he touches on. I think the most recent demographic collapse he examines was the Vikings, when the climate changed and they lost a lot of the land they'd been using.

[sheepofoblivion]

Something like this actually has already happened. Just on a local level, not on a global level. "Collapse," a book by Jared Diamond, examines various cases of human societies collapsing into oblivion, or at least into a much less powerful state than they were in. Easter Island is one example given, but there are a lot of other tribes and kingdoms that he touches on. I think the most recent demographic collapse he examines was the Vikings, when the climate changed and they lost a lot of the land they'd been using.

Yes...yes... Soon, you shall all join my realm!!!! MWAHAHAHAHA *maniacal laughter!!!*

(sorry, just couldn't let that pass "...collapsing into oblivion, or at least into a..."

[CommodoreFluffy]

Dude, It is logical, but when that happens, there is a higher rate of technological advancement, because ruins are bound to exist, with some information, which would no doubt be used to the advantages of these new civilizations, eventually, people would find a "Rosetta Stone" in an airport with multilingual signs, and people would study past generations, because of the remnants of society. We are like cockroaches, we die, we come back...simple.

[BURNhollywoodBURN]

The thought is only scary because no one wants to die. If you don't care about dying them you should be fine. I'll explain. Everyone's afraid of dying, but if someone remembers you, its not that scary because you still exist in some form. But, if no one could possible remember you, then you're really dead and no one wants that. Those who don't care about dying, then you just wasted your time. :smallbiggrin:
No, not really. At all. This is actually scary because it gives off the feeling that we are just a remake, that we're not the first humans that were on the earth.

[CommodoreFluffy]

I think that it is likely that we are the second (or third, or fourth or so on and so forth) attempt, but if so our predecessors either had very high technology, which completely destroyed any remains, or primateve, to the point where it didn't really matter, we would eventually find remains of a technologically advanced civilization if they were before us. Don't worry, your theory will work the next time 'round.:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Also, there is another point brought up, Legends. Atlantis, the City of Gold, Mt Olympus, and so on and so forth, maybe they didn't die, they just left. Leaving us exiles on a "doomed" planet. but because of our lack of technology, nature was returned to a balanced state, but they just never came back.

[Telonius]

The Atlantis legend that was recorded in Plato didn't specify any particularly advanced technologies. It was just described as a really powerful island kingdom.

From Critias (http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/Atlantis/critias_page2.html)(Beware, huge block o'text):
I have before remarked in speaking of the allotments of the gods, that they distributed the whole earth into portions differing in extent, and made for themselves temples and instituted sacrifices. And Poseidon, receiving for his lot the island of Atlantis, begat children by a mortal woman, and settled them in a part of the island, which I will describe.

Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side. In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito.

The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.

He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory.

And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus. Of the second pair of twins he called one Ampheres, and the other Evaemon. To the elder of the third pair of twins he gave the name Mneseus, and Autochthon to the one who followed him. Of the fourth pair of twins he called the elder Elasippus, and the younger Mestor. And of the fifth pair he gave to the elder the name of Azaes, and to the younger that of Diaprepes.

All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia.

Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations; and they had such an amount of wealth as was never before possessed by kings and potentates, and is not likely ever to be again, and they were furnished with everything which they needed, both in the city and country. For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries, and the island itself provided most of what was required by them for the uses of life.

In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold.

There was an abundance of wood for carpenter's work, and sufficient maintenance for tame and wild animals.

Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all.

Also whatever fragrant things there now are in the earth, whether roots, or herbage, or woods, or essences which distil from fruit and flower, grew and thrived in that land; also the fruit which admits of cultivation, both the dry sort, which is given us for nourishment and any other which we use for food-we call them all by the common name pulse, and the fruits having a hard rind, affording drinks and meats and ointments, and good store of chestnuts and the like, which furnish pleasure and amusement, and are fruits which spoil with keeping, and the pleasant kinds of dessert, with which we console ourselves after dinner, when we are tired of eating-all these that sacred island which then beheld the light of the sun, brought forth fair and wondrous and in infinite abundance.

With such blessings the earth freely furnished them; meanwhile they went on constructing their temples and palaces and harbours and docks. And they arranged the whole country in the following manner:

First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty.

And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress.

Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water.

Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia.

All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in.

The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock. Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight.

The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.

The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise:-in the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold; this was the spot where the family of the ten princes first saw the light, and thither the people annually brought the fruits of the earth in their season from all the ten portions, to be an offering to each of the ten.

Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum.

In the temple they placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a chariot-the charioteer of six winged horses-and of such a size that he touched the roof of the building with his head; around him there were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins, for such was thought to be the number of them by the men of those days. There were also in the interior of the temple other images which had been dedicated by private persons.

And around the temple on the outside were placed statues of gold of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives, and there were many other great offerings of kings and of private persons, coming both from the city itself and from the foreign cities over which they held sway. There was an altar too, which in size and workmanship corresponded to this magnificence, and the palaces, in like manner, answered to the greatness of the kingdom and the glory of the temple.

In the next place, they had fountains, one of cold and another of hot water, in gracious plenty flowing; and they were wonderfully adapted for use by reason of the pleasantness and excellence of their waters. They constructed buildings about them and planted suitable trees, also they made cisterns, some open to the heavens, others roofed over, to be used in winter as warm baths; there were the kings' baths, and the baths of private persons, which were kept apart; and there were separate baths for women, and for horses and cattle, and to each of them they gave as much adornment as was suitable.

Of the water which ran off they carried some to the grove of Poseidon, where were growing all manner of trees of wonderful height and beauty, owing to the excellence of the soil, while the remainder was conveyed by aqueducts along the bridges to the outer circles; and there were many temples built and dedicated to many gods; also gardens and places of exercise, some for men, and others for horses in both of the two islands formed by the zones; and in the centre of the larger of the two there was set apart a race-course of a stadium in width, and in length allowed to extend all round the island, for horses to race in.

Also there were guardhouses at intervals for the guards, the more trusted of whom were appointed-to keep watch in the lesser zone, which was nearer the Acropolis while the most trusted of all had houses given them within the citadel, near the persons of the kings. The docks were full of triremes and naval stores, and all things were quite ready for use.

Enough of the plan of the royal palace. Leaving the palace and passing out across the three you came to a wall which began at the sea and went all round: this was everywhere distant fifty stadia from the largest zone or harbour, and enclosed the whole, the ends meeting at the mouth of the channel which led to the sea.

The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

I have described the city and the environs of the ancient palace nearly in the words of Solon, and now I must endeavour to represent the nature and arrangement of the rest of the land.


...

As to the population, each of the lots in the plain had to find a leader for the men who were fit for military service, and the size of a lot was a square of ten stadia each way, and the total number of all the lots was sixty thousand. And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude, which was distributed among the lots and had leaders assigned to them according to their districts and villages. The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of a war-chariot, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots; also two horses and riders for them, and a pair of chariot-horses without a seat, accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield, and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; also, he was bound to furnish two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships.

Such was the military order of the royal city-the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.

As to offices and honours, the following was the arrangement from the first. Each of the ten kings in his own division and in his own city had the absolute control of the citizens, and, in most cases, of the laws, punishing and slaying whomsoever he would. Now the order of precedence among them and their mutual relations were regulated by the commands of Poseidon which the law had handed down. These were inscribed by the first kings on a pillar of orichalcum, which was situated in the middle of the island, at the temple of Poseidon, whither the kings were gathered together every fifth and every sixth year alternately, thus giving equal honour to the odd and to the even number...

So basically, rich folks, big population; but nothing more complicated than canals, hot springs, and war chariots. Lots of gold and metals. No flying cars or spaceships.

And they were even (supposedly) defeated by the Ancient Greeks in battle before the island sank.

From Timaeus (http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/Atlantis/timaeus_page2.html):
Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars.

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

[sheepofoblivion]

The Atlantis legend that was recorded in Plato didn't specify any particularly advanced technologies. It was just described as a really powerful island kingdom.

From Critias (http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/Atlantis/critias_page2.html)(Beware, huge block o'text):
I have before remarked in speaking of the allotments of the gods, that they distributed the whole earth into portions differing in extent, and made for themselves temples and instituted sacrifices. And Poseidon, receiving for his lot the island of Atlantis, begat children by a mortal woman, and settled them in a part of the island, which I will describe.

Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side. In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito.

The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.

He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory.

And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus. Of the second pair of twins he called one Ampheres, and the other Evaemon. To the elder of the third pair of twins he gave the name Mneseus, and Autochthon to the one who followed him. Of the fourth pair of twins he called the elder Elasippus, and the younger Mestor. And of the fifth pair he gave to the elder the name of Azaes, and to the younger that of Diaprepes.

All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia.

Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations; and they had such an amount of wealth as was never before possessed by kings and potentates, and is not likely ever to be again, and they were furnished with everything which they needed, both in the city and country. For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries, and the island itself provided most of what was required by them for the uses of life.

In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold.

There was an abundance of wood for carpenter's work, and sufficient maintenance for tame and wild animals.

Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all.

Also whatever fragrant things there now are in the earth, whether roots, or herbage, or woods, or essences which distil from fruit and flower, grew and thrived in that land; also the fruit which admits of cultivation, both the dry sort, which is given us for nourishment and any other which we use for food-we call them all by the common name pulse, and the fruits having a hard rind, affording drinks and meats and ointments, and good store of chestnuts and the like, which furnish pleasure and amusement, and are fruits which spoil with keeping, and the pleasant kinds of dessert, with which we console ourselves after dinner, when we are tired of eating-all these that sacred island which then beheld the light of the sun, brought forth fair and wondrous and in infinite abundance.

With such blessings the earth freely furnished them; meanwhile they went on constructing their temples and palaces and harbours and docks. And they arranged the whole country in the following manner:

First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty.

And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress.

Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water.

Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia.

All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in.

The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock. Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight.

The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.

The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise:-in the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold; this was the spot where the family of the ten princes first saw the light, and thither the people annually brought the fruits of the earth in their season from all the ten portions, to be an offering to each of the ten.

Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum.

In the temple they placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a chariot-the charioteer of six winged horses-and of such a size that he touched the roof of the building with his head; around him there were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins, for such was thought to be the number of them by the men of those days. There were also in the interior of the temple other images which had been dedicated by private persons.

And around the temple on the outside were placed statues of gold of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives, and there were many other great offerings of kings and of private persons, coming both from the city itself and from the foreign cities over which they held sway. There was an altar too, which in size and workmanship corresponded to this magnificence, and the palaces, in like manner, answered to the greatness of the kingdom and the glory of the temple.

In the next place, they had fountains, one of cold and another of hot water, in gracious plenty flowing; and they were wonderfully adapted for use by reason of the pleasantness and excellence of their waters. They constructed buildings about them and planted suitable trees, also they made cisterns, some open to the heavens, others roofed over, to be used in winter as warm baths; there were the kings' baths, and the baths of private persons, which were kept apart; and there were separate baths for women, and for horses and cattle, and to each of them they gave as much adornment as was suitable.

Of the water which ran off they carried some to the grove of Poseidon, where were growing all manner of trees of wonderful height and beauty, owing to the excellence of the soil, while the remainder was conveyed by aqueducts along the bridges to the outer circles; and there were many temples built and dedicated to many gods; also gardens and places of exercise, some for men, and others for horses in both of the two islands formed by the zones; and in the centre of the larger of the two there was set apart a race-course of a stadium in width, and in length allowed to extend all round the island, for horses to race in.

Also there were guardhouses at intervals for the guards, the more trusted of whom were appointed-to keep watch in the lesser zone, which was nearer the Acropolis while the most trusted of all had houses given them within the citadel, near the persons of the kings. The docks were full of triremes and naval stores, and all things were quite ready for use.

Enough of the plan of the royal palace. Leaving the palace and passing out across the three you came to a wall which began at the sea and went all round: this was everywhere distant fifty stadia from the largest zone or harbour, and enclosed the whole, the ends meeting at the mouth of the channel which led to the sea.

The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

I have described the city and the environs of the ancient palace nearly in the words of Solon, and now I must endeavour to represent the nature and arrangement of the rest of the land.


...

As to the population, each of the lots in the plain had to find a leader for the men who were fit for military service, and the size of a lot was a square of ten stadia each way, and the total number of all the lots was sixty thousand. And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude, which was distributed among the lots and had leaders assigned to them according to their districts and villages. The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of a war-chariot, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots; also two horses and riders for them, and a pair of chariot-horses without a seat, accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield, and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; also, he was bound to furnish two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships.

Such was the military order of the royal city-the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.

As to offices and honours, the following was the arrangement from the first. Each of the ten kings in his own division and in his own city had the absolute control of the citizens, and, in most cases, of the laws, punishing and slaying whomsoever he would. Now the order of precedence among them and their mutual relations were regulated by the commands of Poseidon which the law had handed down. These were inscribed by the first kings on a pillar of orichalcum, which was situated in the middle of the island, at the temple of Poseidon, whither the kings were gathered together every fifth and every sixth year alternately, thus giving equal honour to the odd and to the even number...

So basically, rich folks, big population; but nothing more complicated than canals, hot springs, and war chariots. Lots of gold and metals. No flying cars or spaceships.

And they were even (supposedly) defeated by the Ancient Greeks in battle before the island sank.

From Timaeus (http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/Atlantis/timaeus_page2.html):
Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars.

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.


I think Fluffy's thinking about the tv show Stargate Atlantis right now...

[CommodoreFluffy]

It's just a popular example, and who is to say that they didn't have above average technology for the time, what if they had been outnumbered. Also, if there were advanced things, the greeks just wouldn't be able to explain what they saw well enough.

[KindaChang]

It's just a popular example, and who is to say that they didn't have above average technology for the time, what if they had been outnumbered. Also, if there were advanced things, the greeks just wouldn't be able to explain what they saw well enough.

They would have described it though, and they CERTAINLY wouldn't be worshipping a group of people they had defeated in battle.

[sheepofoblivion]

They would have described it though, and they CERTAINLY wouldn't be worshipping a group of people they had defeated in battle.

They may have looked upon them with awe, but I'm not sure worshipped is the correct word, after all, poseidon did sink their city (at least I think), and you don't want to worship your god's enemies...

Besides, if you watched Stargate Atlantis, there are plenty of examples of this kind of thing happening (people don't know how do describe something) and it even happens in history! Why does it rain? -Maybe there is a rain god! (-maybe he couldn't find a bathroom in time)

(sorry to anyone who doesn't watch SG: A because fluffy's arguement is sorta ... fluff

[Vella_Malachite]

I believe a similar theory is explored in 'The Science of the Discworld I', in that we are not the first civilisation to happen. For example, how do we tell that the dinosaurs were not an advanced civilisation? For all we know, they could have had religion, holy sites and languages, though it would have been hard to build things without opposable thumbs, which may be why we don't have fossil records, or they may have just decayed by now or been crushed flat by the assumed meteor strike. Think about that.:smallamused:

So, yes, this has been thought of before, although you have given me a good opportunity to discuss this topic with people that won't look at me strangely.:smalltongue:

So, yes, I do think that this has happened before, and will happen again.

In contribution to the whole death thing, I am so freaked out by death that I literally can't sleep sometimes for thinking about it, yes, it is about the fear that after death we may just...not exist anymore. That is way scarier than anything else it is possible for me to imagine, except perhaps the knowledge of imminent death. Even the idea of a slow, painful death does not worry me as much as the thought of the death itself. Brrrr!!

[Telonius]

The thing is, with the Greeks, they would have had terms to describe any modern technology we've come up with so far, and a few we haven't quite gotten.

Airplanes/spaceships: "They had flying chariots, like that of Helios."
Rocket packs: "Their soldiers put on wings, like Icarus and his father."
Robots: "Their slaves were automatons, like Talus, or the servants of Hephaestus."
Laser guns: "They fashioned thunderbolts for themselves."
Bombs/Napalm: "They had weapons like Greek Fire, but a thousand times as hot."

The Greeks were poets, philosophers, and the closest thing the ancient world had to scientists. If they saw something, they would have described it in the best details they could. More importantly, they would have tried to copy it. But they didn't. And in those two dialogues - incidentally the only ancient references to Atlantis - there's nothing to even suggest a level of technology very far advanced from the Greeks themselves.

[Om]

I fail to see the problem here. We die and the world changes... welcome to mortality. You are going to die anyway and the world is going to change anyway. Unless you are, for some reason, particularly invested in the survival of humanity (tip: it doesn't matter when you're dead) then there is nothing new or disturbing about this scenario. I guarantee that in a thousand years from now human society will have nothing in common with that of today regardless of any cataclysms


The thing is, with the Greeks, they would have had terms to describe any modern technology we've come up with so far, and a few we haven't quite gotten."Behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire . . . parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" :smallwink:

[Telonius]

"Behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire . . . parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" :smallwink:

Exactly. If Atlantis really did exist, and had advanced technology, the Greeks would have described it something much more like that. And that quote is from the ancient Hebrews, not even a bunch of philosophers like the Greeks.

[CommodoreFluffy]

I'm just putting something out there, and why are we talking about Atlantis, I wanted to put emphasis on Mt Olympus, they do have such descriptions for the gods, as you so expertly pointed out.

AND STOP BRINGING UP STARGATE!

[Om]

And that quote is from the ancient Hebrews, not even a bunch of philosophers like the Greeks.Why do you assume that the Greeks would have been any more accurate in their descriptions? :smallconfused:

"Philosopher" does not translate as "scientist" and the Greeks had plenty of gods/myths of their own. Not to mention the fact that the whole Atlantis legend was dreamt up by Plato... a Greek philosopher

[Captain van der Decken]

Re:the OP - I wouldn't call that theory scary. Entertaining, perhaps.

[McMindflayer]

The moral of the story kids is: History Repeats itself. Whether in the small actions of a certain people or the grand scale of the universe.

As for those who say that we would have found some sort of fossil record or sign. The Earth is big. Not as big as some things but still pretty massive. There are several layers to the Earth's crust. The farthest our drills can go into this crust isn't even halfway through the first layer. and every single day, the world is eroding and remaking itself. Not to mention that we only have certain dig sites all over the world. the evidence, for all we know, could be buried underneath the oil feild in Texas. Also, Fossils are only made when something drastically changes in the enivorment and quickly too. an Avalanche buries a person. we have a chance of digging him up. Pompeii blew, and quickly covered the town surrounding it with ash, perfectly perserving those in it. otherwise the fossilized objects degenerate to not be useable.

[Telonius]

Why do you assume that the Greeks would have been any more accurate in their descriptions? :smallconfused:

"Philosopher" does not translate as "scientist" and the Greeks had plenty of gods/myths of their own. Not to mention the fact that the whole Atlantis legend was dreamt up by Plato... a Greek philosopher

I don't assume they'd be more accurate in their descriptions. But I do assume that some sort of description would be present - even if it were in poetic terms - if they'd actually seen a higher level of technology. There's no such description in either of the two Dialogues about the Atlantis legend.

I don't think Atlantis existed in the same sense that Plato described it - but I'm giving the idea of "advanced Atlantean technology" the biggest benefits of the doubt I can give. Even assuming that Atlantis existed in the form described by Plato, it still doesn't make sense that it had advanced technology.

[sheepofoblivion]

meh, Whatever, it is still possible, anyway, as I was reading through the Amen thread, I came upon a strange theory (sort of...) that if one sesmic event could trigger a chain reaction, then the earth would be engulfed in lava and stuff, erasing all evidence of previous life... although a little bit... out there... it could have happened (even though there probably would be evidence of it...) (what gave me the idea was when a huge volcano went off under the amen base and caused a chain reaction because of the massive amounts of sesmic activity and the world was covered in molten lava and stuff (sorrry if that was really really really random...))

[CommodoreFluffy]

It was...But it is not a scary theory, so to speak, but an interesting one.

[Hell Puppi]

I had a similar thought when I was reading viking lore, and one of the ways the world could end was all but 2 of the gods dying after Ragnarok, the eternal winter.
Then I wondered, Adam and Eve?


Of course, Douglas Adams beat both of us to it (paraphrased):
"There is a theory that if anyone figures out the horrible randomness of the universe, it will implode and restart as something even more ludicrous and random. It is though that this has already happened once before."

[Malic]

Interesting theory, but by no means the scariest or strangest.

Also I like the prospect of seismic activity engulfing the world in lava. Interesting, to say the least.

[KindaChang]

The moral of the story kids is: History Repeats itself. Whether in the small actions of a certain people or the grand scale of the universe.

As for those who say that we would have found some sort of fossil record or sign. The Earth is big. Not as big as some things but still pretty massive. There are several layers to the Earth's crust. The farthest our drills can go into this crust isn't even halfway through the first layer. and every single day, the world is eroding and remaking itself. Not to mention that we only have certain dig sites all over the world. the evidence, for all we know, could be buried underneath the oil feild in Texas. Also, Fossils are only made when something drastically changes in the enivorment and quickly too. an Avalanche buries a person. we have a chance of digging him up. Pompeii blew, and quickly covered the town surrounding it with ash, perfectly perserving those in it. otherwise the fossilized objects degenerate to not be useable.

They could also die in a swamp, a desert, or really anywhere where the bones will be covered quickly and thus be preserved.

Sea beds, river beds, lake beds...

[Etheral]

There is one major problem with this theory. If this did happen before than why havent any archaelogical digs (and other stuff) found any evidence of another civilization before us with similar levels of technology?

This is a good theory... but its flawed in some places.

[sheepofoblivion]

Well, part of the theory which I brought up a bit earlier is that LAVA covered the earth, and lava solidifies... Leaving layers of rock. Big layers of rocks. A ton. So they would be buried under thousands of tons of sediment and stuff, which we can't reach or something... I have no idea... There probably would be evidence, and that is a flaw, but thats probably the biggest one...

[CommodoreFluffy]

Sheep is right, there is the possibility of geological intervention that could have damaged ruins, but we still would have to find SOMETHING!

[NikkTheTrick]

That definitely did not happen before.

First of all, a war, regardless of how destructive it was, would not push humanity far back in technology. Mostly because those who actually manage to survive it will likely do so through use of technology. especially military technology - whoever survives better be able to fight well or be enslaved by other survivors.

Second a war on such scale would have a terrible toll of wildlife. Humans understand nuclear weapons and can take measures for survival. Animals and plants do not.

Third, we would have found something somewhere. Having the whole planet covered with lave (only way everything could be hidden) would leave no survivors either. Steel frameworks of buildings can take a lot more punishments than fragile human bodies.

[CommodoreFluffy]

We aren't saying that it is true, we are merely entertaining the notion that it is possible to some degree.

[NikkTheTrick]

We aren't saying that it is true, we are merely entertaining the notion that it is possible to some degree.
And I am trying to ruin that notion, proving it is not possible :smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Nikk's post, this isn't quite the same thing, but when the Roman Empire collapsed, Europe ended up devolving a lot as far as technology and culture went, and it didn't get back up to the Roman's level of technology for about 1000 years. While there is a good chance that some of our current level of technology would survive a huge disaster, there's a possiblity that a lot of it will be wiped out, or that it could become unusable due to the disaster.

[The_Werebear]

This is possible, but would require some assumptions on our part and a few minor changes.

First, note that this would have to be quite a bit back in time. Well before anything we can even imagine, maybe even during the Hadean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadean) Eon. The Earth would have cooled, and life would have formed as we have seen, though with a jump to intelligent life much earlier than we have come about it. Second, it requires that whatever they used to wipe each other out was powerful enough to not only kill all of them, but erase every instance of them so utterly that we can not find any evidence of it. These device would have have to been powerful enough to utter annihilate not only them, but every dwelling and item they had made as well.

As for humanity, I find the theory interesting (And yes, unnerving. I hate repeating the mistakes of the past, and to think that we had forgotten them all is tragic), but very, very unlikely, simply because humanity has not been around long enough for the Earth to erase the evidence that such a civilization would have had to have left. Even if 99% of everything humanity has ever done fades away, we have still left our mark, and it will take an absurdly long time to erase every trace of evidence that we have left behind us.

Even though it isn't likely, there is still a chance they did whatever they did to themselves through time travel. Or the Matrix.

[NikkTheTrick]

Regarding Nikk's post, this isn't quite the same thing, but when the Roman Empire collapsed, Europe ended up devolving a lot as far as technology and culture went, and it didn't get back up to the Roman's level of technology for about 1000 years. While there is a good chance that some of our current level of technology would survive a huge disaster, there's a possiblity that a lot of it will be wiped out, or that it could become unusable due to the disaster.
I would disagree. While culture, some civilian technology, etc. had devolved, in many areas technology did not. For example, military organization of barbarians was better by the time of the collapse (by better I mean more suited for warfare on that scale in that area). Weapons used by barbarians were often better quality than Roman ones... Barbarians adapted to what they had to face (Roman military and society) and while Roman empire was stagnant and unwilling to change, barbarians did adapt, learned weaknesses of Roman legions (and used that knowledge like they did at Adrianople).

Mobile and well armored Goth cavalry was a more modern force than Roman infantry (Romans had few cavalry) which was just asking to get encircled and destroyed.

So while yes, a nuclear war would indeed be able to degrade our culture, destroy cities, etc. It will not destroy what humans are the best at: killing each other.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point (I was thinking more about positive things like knowledge of medicine and plumbing being lost rather then knowledge of how to cause death and destruction).

[Etheral]

If humans managed to survive then so would have traces of their old technology therefore this theory is NOT POSSIBLE as such technology has never been found.

[CommodoreFluffy]

Thing is, if we were far enough ahead, the resorces and tech would not be usable because of loss of energy, and manpower. these may be worshiped for a while as relics, and then they would be forgotten, so swords, and axes would survive, and some rudimentary knowledge, but little else.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is what I was thinking about (to be fair, there is a chance that some of our more advanced structures could survive: the Roman's weren't that advanced in regards to technology compared with today). Slightly OT, but did you know that one Greek inventor actually made a simple steam engine, but he never developed it enough for it to be useful? If he had added a piston to it, the industrial revolution could have happened almost 2000 years early.

[Solo]

I came up with this theory on the way home from school.
Please, if you found this religiously offensive, I'm sorry, I don't mean to disprove anything. I am, in fact, a committed Jew, so please, just don't take offense to this.
Also, note that I do not fully believe that this theory exists, so ignore all verbs implying that it will.

So basically, here's what it is. Many say that we are going to wipe ourselves out. I don't fully disagree with this, in fact I'm leaning more towards the belief that something like this (http://www.endofworld.net/) will happen. Anyway, if we do, not everyone will die. There will be a group of survivors, who obviously do not have much and are close to dying. They will realize that they must save the human race, so (assuming they're male and female alike) they will reproduce. Soon, old generations will die out, giving birth to new ones. These new humans will lose all traces of what our culture and society was like. They may not even know our language. They will forget everything. They will develop a being to turn to, maybe something like God. (That's the religiously controversial part of that. I'm sorry.) They will then start growing into a huge population. They will develop new cultures and societies, invent many things vital to their survival, and then almost remake the entire Earth. Land will be developed, cities will be conquered, so on, so forth. They could even wipe themselves out after a while. This leads to a scary thought:
(spoilered for effect)
This has already happened.
Who knows? Maybe, in a thousand years, someone will post something on the internet talking about a scary thing they thought of on the way home from school.
:wink:

The lack of remains of a precursor civilization leads me to believe that it has not already happened.

If it were to have happened, I'm sure at least one public library would survive, and that would be enough to remind people of our history.

[Deepblue706]

The lack of remains of a precursor civilization leads me to believe that it has not already happened.

If it were to have happened, I'm sure at least one public library would survive, and that would be enough to remind people of our history.

What if it got turned invisible?

[NikkTheTrick]

Thing is, if we were far enough ahead, the resorces and tech would not be usable because of loss of energy, and manpower. these may be worshiped for a while as relics, and then they would be forgotten, so swords, and axes would survive, and some rudimentary knowledge, but little else.
Technology is not too hard to use. In fact, technology makes a lot of things simpler.

You gave swords as an example. However, an effective use of sword is much, much harder than use of a rifle. AK-47 is a lot easier to use than a bolt-action rifle, which is much easier to use than a needle gun, which is easier to use than a flintlock musket, which is easier to use than a matchlock musket, which is much easier to use than a bow. This is one of the reasons why in 20 century wars armies were so massive - with bolt action rifle, every idiot could effectively fight with only hours of training. Teaching someone how to use a musket properly (which included bayonet combat - bayonet was more important than musket itself untill after Napoleon) would take years. Hence, conscript armies appeared only after easier to use weapons (Prussian needle gun for example) appeared.

So, no. If there was an apocalypse, people would not go to swords. They will go to semi-modern weapons (AK 47) and would do their best to provide for them (ability to make ammunition will literally mean difference between being a ruler and being a slave).

[KoboldMight]

(flash film was not very entertaining) the theory is quite interesting and i believe the above post is correct in that some confused human(oid) will stumble upon an firearm discover its superiority over most other primitive combat weapons and anything can happen from their. this of course assumes that your theory comes to pass

[sheepofoblivion]

True true, but how long until the guns jam? I agree partly with koboldmight and with nikkthetrikk... Guns would be used, and ammunition created, but what happens when a gun jams? the user is swarmed and killed, the gun is taken as a prize, but the person taking the gun would try to use it but it would be jammed, or it would have run out of ammo... Also, if there were several groups, and about half of them knew how to fix a broken (replace jam with broken...) gun... the half who didn't would do just as well, until their gun broke, and by that time, they probably would be competeing for ammo and stuff so they could continue their conquest... Once the gun broke, their now enemies with the knowledge of how to fix it would be against them, and they would fade away. The people who knew would probably target other people who knew how to make or fix guns and ammo, until there was only one group. By that time, the lesser class (people w/o guns) would be a lot more in population, and they would eventually get overrun...

But, I'm not saying their wouldn't be evidence...

[CommodoreFluffy]

Technology is not too hard to use. In fact, technology makes a lot of things simpler.

You gave swords as an example. However, an effective use of sword is much, much harder than use of a rifle. AK-47 is a lot easier to use than a bolt-action rifle, which is much easier to use than a needle gun, which is easier to use than a flintlock musket, which is easier to use than a matchlock musket, which is much easier to use than a bow. This is one of the reasons why in 20 century wars armies were so massive - with bolt action rifle, every idiot could effectively fight with only hours of training. Teaching someone how to use a musket properly (which included bayonet combat - bayonet was more important than musket itself untill after Napoleon) would take years. Hence, conscript armies appeared only after easier to use weapons (Prussian needle gun for example) appeared.

So, no. If there was an apocalypse, people would not go to swords. They will go to semi-modern weapons (AK 47) and would do their best to provide for them (ability to make ammunition will literally mean difference between being a ruler and being a slave).

Also take into account that there is limited ammunition, and no, or few factories, to produce it. People would either run out, or have some bits of technology acting as a crutch for their society.

[Sleet]

People would either run out, or have some bits of technology acting as a crutch for their society.

You don't need a factory to produce ammunition. It helps, but it isn't necessary.

[EvilElitest]

What the HELL made you think this up?

Did you read Shannara?

But really, through out history we have examples of similar things like this
from
EE

[Sleet]

This leads to a scary thought:
This has already happened.

Yup, theories like this are the basis for a variety of sci-fi and fantasy type stories. It's neat to think about, but the problem is that societies technologically advanced enough to wipe themselves out tend to leave fairly durable traces of themselves.

If we bump ourselves off tomorrow, all that concrete and plastic isn't just going to vanish, in other words. :smallwink:

[CommodoreFluffy]

All of this is true, but who is to say that it wouldn't be destroyed, or reintegrated into the land.

[Danzaver]

After several people already pointing it out, I doubt it will surprise you to hear once again that some other people have already toyed with this theory. Not to diminish your glory of course, kudos for thinking it up independently.

One such theory goes that there was a well-established coastal civilisation sprawling the globe, until a seismic shift of magnitude large enough to reshape the land and move the poles destroyed it all. The reason (so the theory says) that there are no artifacts from this civilisation is they are so deep under the sea, earth, or a glacier, that no one will ever find them. Given the scale of the earth, this is plausible, I suppose.

But then some go on to say tat perhaps there ARE artifacts of this civilisation. Ones that modern Archaeology can do little to trace to their origin because they have already been removed from their resting place when they were already ancient.

I am reminded of a story of an urn containing an interesting mix of chemicals found in a roman temple, that was basically, a primitive but functional battery. Not inconceivable - the first battery was basically a pile of copper and frogs' skins.

Also, there was a cave in India, where they found evidence (supposedly) of... well... what could conceivably be said to be a nuclear explosion. There was some minute trace radiation in the walls of the cave, and in ancient bones in the cave - the unfortunate victim of the reaction, whose shadow was still burnt to the back wall of the cave.

I have not independently verified these accounts, and could be the pseudo-archaeology that sells so many books to people looking for new ways to be 'alternative', but my point is merely this:

The discovery of an advanced artifact of a forgotten civilisation would not turn our understanding of history on its head, unless it came perfectly preserved and contained with a variety of other primary and easy-to-interpret sources.

As in, if you found a 30,000 year old iPod (for example), it would be discredited and argued over forever, and called a fake, unless it came with an instruction manual and contained uncorrupted data detailing the civilisation it came from. And even then it would be contested and called a fake.

Carbon dating is not 100% accurate, and the possibility of frauds and corrupted sites are too much of a possibility for anything but the most immaculate find to stand up to scientific scrutiny.

I could be wrong, but this is my impression.

[Smeik]

Furthermore, for all those saying that thex would find something in the layers of earth and fossil records. The chances of anything organic being turned into a fossil are so small, that you can't really hope for any. All factors that lead to a fossil have to be right. And even if you found fossils, what do you make out of them?

Second, studies have shown, that if you take a city like New York, take all humans out of the city and wait about 20000 years, you have a flourishing forest in place of it and it becomes nearly impossible to tell there even was a city. The only evidence you would have are that some elements that shouldn't be there are there in a very high concentration, like iron or other things like that. But Mother Nature is mightier in destroying cities than you might think. If you look at roads that weren't looked after for 20 years or so, you already see that the road is begnning to dissolve. Now what do you think happens if you wait long enoug, do you think you still would have any evidence there was a road?

Not saying it HAS happened, only saying it is possible it happened without us noticing it.

greetings, smeik

[The_Werebear]

However, what we would notice is things in the fossil record, and in the sedimentary layers. If there was a civilzation as expansive as ours, there would be fossils and records.

[NikkTheTrick]

Also take into account that there is limited ammunition, and no, or few factories, to produce it. People would either run out, or have some bits of technology acting as a crutch for their society.
People will produce ammunition. It is not that hard and can also be done manually. Also, guns will also likely be adapted to use lower quality ammunition.

While production of ammunition may seem like a pain in the behind, once people are actually faced with a choice "make itor die", people will produce it. With their bare hands if necessary.

True true, but how long until the guns jam? I agree partly with koboldmight and with nikkthetrikk... Guns would be used, and ammunition created, but what happens when a gun jams? the user is swarmed and killed, the gun is taken as a prize, but the person taking the gun would try to use it but it would be jammed, or it would have run out of ammo... Also, if there were several groups, and about half of them knew how to fix a broken (replace jam with broken...) gun... the half who didn't would do just as well, until their gun broke, and by that time, they probably would be competeing for ammo and stuff so they could continue their conquest... Once the gun broke, their now enemies with the knowledge of how to fix it would be against them, and they would fade away. The people who knew would probably target other people who knew how to make or fix guns and ammo, until there was only one group. By that time, the lesser class (people w/o guns) would be a lot more in population, and they would eventually get overrun...

But, I'm not saying their wouldn't be evidence...
Groups that cannot maintain their guns and that cannot stay together will be slaughtered by those who do. Most of the groups will turn on themselves, but those groups are inefficient anyway. There will be those who will stay together regardless of hardships. People will be bound by more than just a temporary military alliance: some groups will be comprised of familiy members, who care for one another. Some will be composed of people from the same military units. Society might be devastated, but marines will not turn on each other easily.

Jammed gun is not that hard to fix, especially if it is simple. And even with guns, people are not likely to venture alone into dangerous places.

The society will be destroyed, but humans won't become morons overnight. They'll take good care of their guns. Those who don't will be slaves that end up building ammunition factories with their bare hands (slaves are perfectly disposable. They are worth nothing more than it takes to get new ones).

[Tempest Fennac]

That is interesting, Smeik. (The comment about roads reminds me of the poorly maintained paths and roads where I live: there's often grass or other plants growing through them). I would have thought that the fact that NYC contains a lot of tall steel structures would have made it realtively easy to find, though. Also, where did you get that information from?

[Sleet]

Furthermore, for all those saying that thex would find something in the layers of earth and fossil records. The chances of anything organic being turned into a fossil are so small, that you can't really hope for any. All factors that lead to a fossil have to be right. And even if you found fossils, what do you make out of them?

And yet we have found fossils of all sorts of creatures, and have managed to construct a fairly good account of what they are. Not perfect, not to the last detail, but enough to get a picture.


Second, studies have shown, that if you take a city like New York, take all humans out of the city and wait about 20000 years, you have a flourishing forest in place of it and it becomes nearly impossible to tell there even was a city.

This is true. However, a major forest cannot hide everything. It doesn't wipe the entire surface clean of every last trace - it takes geologic events to do that.

Now multiply NYC by several dozen - a worldwide civilization capable of destroying itself, in other words.

We'd find something. And we haven't.

It's a nifty idea, and I'm certain that there were civilizations and cultures that we haven't yet discovered - just not world-spanning technologically advanced ones like ours.

Edit: In fact, I recall reading about a year ago that analysis of mitochondrial DNA from people across the world indicates that we all descend from members of a population group no more than 1000 individuals in size, many hundreds of thousands of years ago. This strongly indicates that something like what the OP describes actually happened - some society of early humans was nearly wpied out in some calamity, to a size too small to have arisen naturally, but survived from there. However, there is no evidence whatsoever that this culture was beyond stone-age technology, and in fact that we have discovered human fossils older than that but no remains of technological items suggests the opposite.

[sheepofoblivion]

People will produce ammunition. It is not that hard and can also be done manually. Also, guns will also likely be adapted to use lower quality ammunition.

While production of ammunition may seem like a pain in the behind, once people are actually faced with a choice "make itor die", people will produce it. With their bare hands if necessary.

Groups that cannot maintain their guns and that cannot stay together will be slaughtered by those who do. Most of the groups will turn on themselves, but those groups are inefficient anyway. There will be those who will stay together regardless of hardships. People will be bound by more than just a temporary military alliance: some groups will be comprised of familiy members, who care for one another. Some will be composed of people from the same military units. Society might be devastated, but marines will not turn on each other easily.

Jammed gun is not that hard to fix, especially if it is simple. And even with guns, people are not likely to venture alone into dangerous places.

The society will be destroyed, but humans won't become morons overnight. They'll take good care of their guns. Those who don't will be slaves that end up building ammunition factories with their bare hands (slaves are perfectly disposable. They are worth nothing more than it takes to get new ones).

wheel, first of all, I said " (replace jam with broken) " this can happen in many ways, and I'm not saying that people would become stupid and take bad care of their guns.

You seem to be thinking of this as a hmm... thing that would happen within lets say 10 years, I was talking about hm... lets say... 30-100, however long it would take, knowledge would be forgotten, people who knew what to do to fix something might be killed, forget, eventually, they would fall into disrepair... I'm not saying that the people would be *snap* and then stupid, but even the most perfectionists have slips, and it would happen...

Also, I do agree that groups (at least some) wouldn't turn on each other, but that isn't really what I was saying...

You do have good points though...