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Rutee
2008-02-09, 10:30 PM
I'm running a game with an extremely wide variety of supernaturals in a setting where All Myths are True, and it's kinda set up like the WoD cranked up to 11; So far for PCs I have a technomancer (Not Technocrat; Not running the game in the WoD per se), a werewolf, another magus with less concretely defined powers (Though I think a lot of them are falling under Life/Fate, in WoD terms), and a mind-manipulating demon. Got two more PCs on the way as well, but here's my need for help: I need someone with much more crunch experience with the WoD then I to let me know about balance problems I may or may not have to worry about, chiefly. Also, if there are ideas for some sort of different system that may work better, I'm takin' suggestions.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-10, 03:30 AM
It's difficult since you seem to be using house rules. Since you're talking about Life and Fate rather than Life and Entropy, I assume you're using nWoD rather than oWoD.

The basic issue is that mages can still do anything, and that luxury is not extended to any other race.

The best way to balance this kind of system is just to make sure that everybody gets equal time in the spotlight. Don't try and balance the powers, you can't. Give your werewolf stuff that they need to actually understand the culture and mythology of werewolf to solve, instead of something they can just solve with their powers (because any problem they can solve the mages can also solve). Basically talk to your players, see what they want, and make sure they aren't all going to fight horribly and that'll work.

Rutee
2008-02-10, 03:41 AM
No, I just got my proper Mage introduction in nWoD, so I keep calling it Fate. I'm using oWoD at the moment.

What if I can count on my Mages deliberately not giving themselves the ability to do everything?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-10, 03:55 AM
No, I just got my proper Mage introduction in nWoD, so I keep calling it Fate. I'm using oWoD at the moment.

What if I can count on my Mages deliberately not giving themselves the ability to do everything?

The problem is that they get it automatically. If you *can* count on your players not trying to break the game, though, then it seems reasonable to assume that they won't give you any problems either way.

Rutee
2008-02-10, 03:57 AM
Well, I was looking at stuff like Celerity's Extra Action per Dot, and wonderring if there was other stuff to watch out for. Also, how do Mages get it automatically? I thought you could only manipulate spheres you spent XP training in?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-10, 04:22 AM
Well, I was looking at stuff like Celerity's Extra Action per Dot, and wonderring if there was other stuff to watch out for. Also, how do Mages get it automatically? I thought you could only manipulate spheres you spent XP training in?

The problem is that you can do most things with most spheres at comparatively low levels.

With Celerity 5 you get to take six actions in a round, which is admittedly pretty cool, but that's all you get.

With Life 5 you get to manipulate living beings in any way imaginable.

It wouldn't be so bad, except that the way the Spheres are handled, every level you get one part of the world to which you can do anything imaginable. With Life 2, for example, you can manipulate plants and insects in any way imaginable.

The famous example is of course "vampire into lawn chair", which requires something like Matter 3.

Rutee
2008-02-10, 05:03 AM
Hm, I suppose I'm used to nWoD mage then... I might houserule stuff to work more akin to Patterns and the like, where the first dot is sensing the sphere, second dot is enhancing it, third dot is taking it apart, etc. Hm..

Any idea on a different system that can handle that? Or somehow converting Demon: The Fallen in to nWoD? XD

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-10, 05:23 AM
Hm, I suppose I'm used to nWoD mage then... I might houserule stuff to work more akin to Patterns and the like, where the first dot is sensing the sphere, second dot is enhancing it, third dot is taking it apart, etc. Hm..

Any idea on a different system that can handle that? Or somehow converting Demon: The Fallen in to nWoD? XD

It should convert fairly easily tbh. I gave up on WW before Demon came out (and I found the whole "aaah do you see, they're *demons* but they're really the *good* guys" thing deeply frustrating).

If you can trust your players not to be idiots, you shouldn't have a problem, although if you're familiar with nWoD you could just use the nWoD mage rules with little trouble.

Feralgeist
2008-02-10, 07:02 AM
I've been converting Demon into nWoD for awhile, and it's not that hard. It'd be easier to use, because nWoD is more balanced. For the demon player i'd place heavy emphasis on difficulty in gaining faith points, because it makes them much more powerful than other beings, and their lore effects can be insane.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-10, 07:18 AM
The problem is that you can do most things with most spheres at comparatively low levels.
Yes. However, you don't actually get all that many spheres (or, for that matter, Arete) and they're horrendously expensive to raise. If you use the normal char gen rules, I think the one that might be overpowered is the werewolf (since Crinos form kicks major ass, and they get umbral travel from the beginning).


The famous example is of course "vampire into lawn chair", which requires something like Matter 3.
But, doing anything at all with vampires also requires entropy. Likewise, doing anything at all with werewolves also requires spirit.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-10, 07:31 AM
Yes. However, you don't actually get all that many spheres (or, for that matter, Arete) and they're horrendously expensive to raise. If you use the normal char gen rules, I think the one that might be overpowered is the werewolf (since Crinos form kicks major ass, and they get umbral travel from the beginning).

True, I'd been forgetting about Werewolves because I was thinking in terms of nWoD where they're significantly weaker. A starting level Werewolf *can* kick some serious ass.


But, doing anything at all with vampires also requires entropy. Likewise, doing anything at all with werewolves also requires spirit.

That's a common house rule, but it's not actually stated outright anywhere. Certainly "affect vampire" isn't anywhere in the Entropy effects list. Ditto werewolves and Spirit.

Either way the big strength of mages is their subjectivity. Sure, a werewolf in Crinos can deal out masses of aggravated damage, but a mage with Life 2 can turn the New Forest into a ten mile wide plague of locusts, or engineer the Ebola virus in his bathtub.

Werewolves can do a whole lot, but mages can do literally anything. The weird thing about the mage power scale is that they're simultaneously totally overpowered and totally underpowered. Each level in a sphere gives them a new level of reality which they can manipulate at will. You wind up with this weird thing where your character can't turn into a cat, but they can turn every blade of grass in Manhattan into a pile of maggots.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-10, 08:32 AM
That's a common house rule, but it's not actually stated outright anywhere. Certainly "affect vampire" isn't anywhere in the Entropy effects list. Ditto werewolves and Spirit.
Incorrect. Mage: the Ascension third edition rulebook, page 280 and 282, respectively.



Either way the big strength of mages is their subjectivity.
No argument there. But the examples you give (e.g. creating a ten-mile wide plague of locusts) are quite the overstatement. Nearly everything requires a combination of spheres (in this case, Prime 3 / Life 3), as well as hours or days of ritual, and a hazardous check against Paradox. Power hath its peril.

Rutee
2008-02-10, 02:02 PM
Given the setting, I'm liable to restrict how high a Mage can raise a sphere, come to think of it.. hm. Never mind, it's perfectly in-setting for people to grow exponentially in power over really short periods of time XD

Anyway, given the probable pace of the game, what's a mage who *can't* spend hours and hours on rituals at will start to look like? About the same?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-10, 04:36 PM
Either way the big strength of mages is their subjectivity. Sure, a werewolf in Crinos can deal out masses of aggravated damage...You say that like vampires can't do it too.

Nosferatu. Blunt Teeth flaw, Oversized Fangs merit. Buy lots of Potence. 3+Potence extra levels of agg. Oh, and remember: vampire bites are aggravated against everybody.


Werewolves can do a whole lot, but mages can do literally anything. The weird thing about the mage power scale is that they're simultaneously totally overpowered and totally underpowered. Each level in a sphere gives them a new level of reality which they can manipulate at will. You wind up with this weird thing where your character can't turn into a cat, but they can turn every blade of grass in Manhattan into a pile of maggots.Honestly, that's why I never really got into Mage: it was just too easy to break the game.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-10, 05:48 PM
Honestly, that's why I never really got into Mage: it was just too easy to break the game.

You should definitely read into the Amber RPG, then :smallbiggrin:

Rutee
2008-02-10, 05:52 PM
You say that like vampires can't do it too.

Nosferatu. Blunt Teeth flaw, Oversized Fangs merit. Buy lots of Potence. 3+Potence extra levels of agg. Oh, and remember: vampire bites are aggravated against everybody.
IIRC, Crinos claws are Agg Damage to everyone (Not that Agg vs. Lethal is a big deal on a lot of supernatural types) without any extra jobbing..

Anyway! Vampires are liable to be the game's antagonists, so I don't need to worry about breaking them into something that deals oodles of Agg damage, I should think. Agg damage takes too long to heal by RAW for it to be good for a faster paced game. Hm, I'm sure I'm forgetting something.. I know there's not going to be any Hunters so no worrying about their Insta-kill Supernatural thing.. If a Demon were guaranteed 1 Faith per day, would that be terribly breaking?

Kurald Galain
2008-02-10, 06:02 PM
IIRC, Crinos claws are Agg Damage to everyone
Yep, they are. So are Feral Claws (Protean 2) and pretty much anything involving Prime magic. Of course, healing agg sucks for anyone who's not a garou.

Hunters have an insta-kill now? I thought the whole point of hunter was to fight the supernaturals, not becoming supernatural themselves...

WRT demons - isn't that what their pacts are for? No, having an ally that believes in you doesn't seem all that breaking, iirc that is even available for a background point.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-10, 06:02 PM
Yeah, Crinos claws and bites are, as are Glabro bites and Hispos bites I believe. Vampires with Protean also get claws that deal agg, but they take a blood point to get.

PS: are you running this IRL or on the fora?

mostlyharmful
2008-02-10, 06:08 PM
The problem with mixing the old WoD games is they're all intended to focus on diffferent things, combat and spirituallity for Werewolf, ingeniousness and philosophy for mage and politics for vampire. The problem is that the system of Kewl Powrz each gets means that some of them outshine anything from anouther system, they were never intended to crossover without serious homebrewing.

Hence Vampire becomes pointless when the Garou can step into and out of anouther dimension at will that the vampires have no knowledge of let alone access to, they then proceed to unleash more whupass than a thousand year old elder and they come in teams. Oh and that's just if they can't be bothered to summon a God by spending a while on the rite. Likewise Mage owns at anything they have time to think about and sucks if a DM is overharsh with the paradoc rules. Hunters just suck and everything but pitiful normals can laugh at them in complete safety.

If you want to crossover then probably the best idea is to pick the setting/game/system that you're most familiar with, import all the fluff of the others and write up rules for the supernatural stuff within the boundaries of the choosen system, ie if vampire's your thing make all awakened and changlings and Shifters use a reworked system of disciplines instead of spheres/gifts/???? to fit them into the power dynamic at least a little bit at lower levels.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-10, 06:09 PM
The problem with mixing the old WoD games is they're all intended to focus on diffferent things, combat and spirituallity for Werewolf, ingeniousness and philosophy for mage and politics for vampire. The problem is that the system of Kewl Powrz each gets means that some of them outshine anything from anouther system, they were never intended to crossover without serious homebrewing.

Hence Vampire becomes pointless when the Garou can step into and out of anouther dimension at will that the vampires have no knowledge of let alone access to, they then proceed to unleash more whupass than a thousand year old elder and they come in teams. Oh and that's just if they can't be bothered to summon a God by spending a while on the rite. Likewise Mage owns at anything they have time to think about and sucks if a DM is overharsh with the paradoc rules. Hunters just suck and everything but pitiful normals can laugh at them in complete safety.

If you want to crossover then probably the best idea is to pick the setting/game/system that you're most familiar with, import all the fluff of the others and write up rules for the supernatural stuff within the boundaries of the choosen system, ie if vampire's your thing make all awakened and changlings and Shifters use a reworked system of disciplines instead of spheres/gifts/???? to fit them into the power dynamic at least a little bit at lower levels.

From my experience, the nWoD games are much better about this.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-10, 06:13 PM
From my experience, the nWoD games are much better about this.

Cool. I'm not sure it's even a real problem to be honest, just so long as the DM is aware of it when they ctick in new and interesting npcs. I haven't played WoD since before Demon but it's nice to know they're on the way to syncing up their products for simplicities sake if nothing else

Kurald Galain
2008-02-10, 06:16 PM
Hence Vampire becomes pointless when the Garou can step into and out of anouther dimension at will that the vampires have no knowledge of let alone access to,

Well, except that you're now comparing neonate vampires to elder Garou, and aside from that you're exaggerating a lot. Sure, the problem is there, but it's not nearly as bad as that. You are correct, though, that the systems weren't written to be combined like that.

For instance, while Garou will kick vampire butt in combat, they lack a counter to most vampire abilities. Such as Obfuscate, or Dominate. Oops. Actually there is a major combat in the official storyline involving an Antediluvian and a pack of elder Garou, and the vamp won. And won against the mages as well, until the technocracy got smart and employed their orbital solar lens...

Fax Celestis
2008-02-10, 06:18 PM
For instance, while Garou will kick vampire butt in combat, they lack a counter to most vampire abilities. Such as Obfuscate, or Dominate. Oops. Actually there is a major combat in the official storyline involving an Antediluvian and a pack of elder Garou, and the vamp won. And won against the mages as well, until the technocracy got smart and employed their orbital solar lens...

You mean Ravnos? Weren't the Cathayans involved too?

Rutee
2008-02-10, 06:19 PM
Do metaplot victories really count as a symbol of mechanical anything? It's not like they rolled the battle out.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-10, 06:22 PM
You mean Ravnos? Weren't the Cathayans involved too?
Yes. Well, I'm reasonably sure everyone was involved. I'm rather fond of those broad overarching sweeps in the oWOD, like the fall of the Horizon Chantry, or the Shadow Curtain, or the Avatar Storm.


Do metaplot victories really count as a symbol of mechanical anything? It's not like they rolled the battle out.
Maybe not - but then, a high enough Fortitude (plus using your blood to boost stamina, if need be) can make you immune to pretty much everything.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-10, 06:23 PM
Do metaplot victories really count as a symbol of mechanical anything? It's not like they rolled the battle out.

Somewhat. The point is, a vampire with high dots in Disciplines (say, three or four at four dots or higher) is a force to be reckoned with, particularly if they have access to some of the more powerful Disciplines (Chimerstry, Thaumaturgy, Valeren, Obeah, and Temporus, I'm lookin' at you...).

EDIT: For a humorous look at what one can do with high level Disciplines:


What happens when the Antediluvians start fighting?



TREMERE: "Awright, Haqim! I have HAD it with you! You're gonna die!"

HAQIM: "Says you. Phbbbt!"

TREMERE: "Oh, yeah? Thaumaturgy 10, Lure of Flames! I blow up Asia!"

HAQIM: "Celerity 10. I dodge. I'm now standing in the middle of the ocean."

TREMERE: "Thaumaturgy 10, Neptune's Might. I boil the oceans."

HAQIM: "Obfuscate 10. What ocean?"

TREMERE: "Thaumaturgy 10, Movement of the Mind. I hit the remaining ocean with the moon."

LASOMBRA: "Tag in! Obtenebration 9. What moon?"

TREMERE: "Auspex 10. *That* moon."

LASOMBRA: "Tag out!"

HAQIM: "Oh crap. Umm... Quietus 10."

TREMERE: "Here comes the big ball of rock, baby!"

[HAQIM is squished]

BRUJAH: "Didn't Haqim just activate Quietus 10?"

NOSFERATU: "And it was a surprisingly quiet squishing. Stupid discipline."

TREMERE: "Lasombra..."

LASOMBRA: "Tag, um, Tzimisce!"

TZIMISCE: "Vicissitude 10. Try that moon trick now, spellboy."

TREMERE: "Tag Ventrue!"

VENTRUE: "Dominate 10. Who's your daddy?"

TZIMISCE: "You're my daddy."

LASOMBRA: "Tag in! Potence 10. Feel the pain!"

VENTRUE: "Fortitude 10! What pain?"

LASOMBRA: "Obtenebration 10! I hope you like small, dark, places."

VENTRUE: "****."

[VENTRUE vanishes]

LASOMBRA: "I have ALWAYS wanted to do that."

TZIMISCE: "Vicissitude 10. Lasombra, you're now a small ball of cheese."

SMALL BALL OF CHEESE: "WHY?"

TZIMISCE: "Ventrue still calls the shots. Read Dominate 10."

SMALL BALL OF CHEESE: "Damn, he's right."

TZIMISCE: "Animalism 10. Horde of cheese-eating mice."

SMALL BALL OF CHEESE: "Obtenebration 10. I am a shadow of a small ball of cheese."

TZIMISCE: "Tag Tremere!"

TREMERE: "Thaumaturgy 10, Lure of Flames. Shadow of fondue, you mean."

SMALL BALL OF CHEESE: *fwoosh*

NOSFERATU: "Animalism 10. They're MY horde of mice."

TZIMISCE: "Animalism 10. Mine."

NOSFERATU: "Mine!"

TZIMISCE: "Gimme!"

BRUJAH: "Celerity 10 AND Potence 10. I crush Tzimisce and Nosferatu while they're still arguing about the mice."

NOSFERATU: "Urk." [dies]

TZIMISCE: "Urk." [reforms] "Love that Vicissitude 10."

BRUJAH: "Oh, dearie."

TZIMISCE: "Now the mice are MINE!"

[MASKED AVENGER #1 appears from nowhere]

MASKED AVENGER #1: "All of you shall die for consorting with our enemies! Or, in some cases, actually being our enemies."

ENNOIA: "Who the heck are *you*?"

MASKED AVENGER #1: "Oh, sorry. I'm early."

[MASKED AVENGER #1 vanishes]

TZIMISCE: "Not even the first Masked Avenger, whoever he was, can stop me!"

ARIKEL: "Auspex 10. What *can* stop someone with Vicissitude 10? Oh,
diablerie."

TREMERE: "Thaumaturgy something or other. I weaken Arikel a generation."

ARIKEL: "You just made that up!"

TREMERE: "Trust me, you'll like it."

BRUJAH: "Potence 10. I expend a barrage of fisticuffs upon Tzimisce."

TZIMISCE: "Vicissitude 10. I can ignore them."

ENNOIA: "Animalism 10. My mice."

TZIMISCE: "Mine!"

TREMERE: "Quick, Arikel! Diablerize Tzimisce while he's distracted!"

AUGUSTUS: "Necromancy 10, Bone Path! The dead have risen- and they're voting Republican!"

TREMERE: "Don't you guys *ever* stop worrying about temporal power?"

AUGUSTUS: "Umm. No."

MALKAV: "Dementation 10! Everyone goes absolutely crazy!"

[there is a pause]

[the pause lengthens]

BRUJAH: "You feel any different, Ennoia?"

ENNOIA: "Nope. You?"

BRUJAH: "Nope. Tremere?"

TREMERE: "Nope."

AUGUSTUS: "Me neither."

BRUJAH: "Nobody asked you."

MALKAV: "Well, THAT was a non-starter."

TZIMISCE: "Well, I *gurgle*..."

ARIKEL (dropping diablerized corpse of Tzimisce): "*I* sure feel different!"

ENNOIA: "Well, that settles it. My mice."

ARIKEL: "I now have Animalism 10. Mine!"

MALKAV: "CATFIGHT!"

BRUJAH: "Mousefight, actually."

AUGUSTUS: "How droll."

TREMERE: "Thaumaturgy 10, Hands of Destruction. I kill the freakin' mice, already."

ARIKEL: "Waaahhh!"

AUGUSTUS: "Zombie mice!"

ENNOIA: "Bastards."

[MASKED AVENGERS #1, #2, and #3 appear]

MASKED AVENGER #2: "Prepare to meet final death at the hands of the Masked
Avengers!"

MASKED AVENGER #3: "Especially you, Tremere!"

MASKED AVENGER #2: "No, especially *you*, Augustus!"

MASKED AVENGER #3: "Tremere!"

MASKED AVENGER #2: "Augustus!"

ENNOIA: "Who *are* you guys, anyway?"

MASKED AVENGER #3: "It's a secret. That's why we're wearing masks."

BRUJAH: "Speaking of which, why does your mask have three eyeholes?"

MASKED AVENGER #3: "To be distinctive."

BRUJAH: "Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of wearing a mask?"

MASKED AVENGER #1: "You always were a smartass."

BRUJAH: "Potence 10. I punch the first Masked Avenger."

MASKED AVENGER #1: "Ow." [dies]

MASKED AVENGER #2: "We other Masked Avengers are not so easily thwarted! We shall have our revenge! Especially on you, Augustus!"

MASKED AVENGER #3: "Tremere!"

MASKED AVENGER #2: "Augustus!"

AUGUSTUS: "Can we get rid of these guys?"

TREMERE: "Sure you take care of the guy with the three eyeholes in his mask, and I'll take the guy who says he's my archenemy."

MASKED AVENGER #3: "I, with the three eyes, am your archenemy, Tremere."

TREMERE: "Whatever."

AUGUSTUS: "Potence 10. I crush the guy with the three eyes."

MASKED AVENGER #3: "Fortitude 10. I soak."

TREMERE: "Thaumaturgy 10, Lure of Flames. I obliterate Masked Avenger #2."

MASKED AVENGER #2: "Fortitude 10. I soak."

BRUJAH: "Like the guest that won't leave, aren't they?"

AUGUSTUS: "I can handle this. Necromancy 10, Ash Path. I summon the spirits of those who have died tragically."

SPIRITS OF THOSE WHO HAVE DIED TRAGICALLY: "We are here."

AUGUSTUS: "Explain your tragedies to the Masked Avengers."

[The SPIRITS OF THOSE WHO HAVE DIED TRAGICALLY do so]

MASKED AVENGER #3: "Oh, the Angst! I cannot *bear* it!"

[MASKED AVENGER #3 commits suicide]

MASKED AVENGER #2: "How fascinating. I wish to learn more."

AUGUSTUS: "Spirits of those who have died tragically, return to the Shadowlands."

[The SPIRITS OF THOSE WHO HAVE DIED TRAGICALLY do so]

MASKED AVENGER #2: "I must follow them to learn more."

[MASKED AVENGER #2 commits suicide]

ARIKEL: "Well, *that* took forever. But now it's done. Now what?"

TREMERE: "Auspex 10 and Thaumaturgy 10, Lure of Flames. I incinerate Set in that corner he's been hiding."

[SET turns to ashes]

AUGUSTUS: "Letting everyone else do the fighting and taking out the winners? I am shocked, SHOCKED."

BRUJAH: "Shocked that you didn't think of it first."

AUGUSTUS: "And I *deeply* deplore that."

[MASKED AVENGER #1 appears]

MASKED AVENGER #1: "Prepare to meet final death at the hands of the Masked Avenger!"

BRUJAH: "You ever have the feeling of deja vu?"

MASKED AVENGER #1: "Constantly."

ENNOIA: "Enough of this. Protean 10. Welcome to the sun, boys!"

TREMERE: "Hah! Thaumaturgy 10, Invulnerable Weakness!"

[MASKED AVENGER #1 goes *fwoosh*]

[BRUJAH goes *fwoosh*]

[MALKAV goes *fwoosh*]

[ARIKEL goes *fwoosh*]

AUGUSTUS: "Hah! You've played perfectly into my master plan! No, wait."

[AUGUSTUS goes *fwoosh*]

TREMERE: "Thaumaturgy 10, Neptune's Might. I extinguish Ennoia."

[ENNOIA goes *fwoosh*]

TREMERE: "Woo hoo, I won!"

RAVNOS: "Forgot me."

TREMERE: "You? Where the heck have you been?"

RAVNOS: "Keeping a low profile."

TREMERE: "And you didn't burn up in the sun?"

RAVNOS: "Fortitude 10, baby. And I'll thank you not to kill off my mice."

TREMERE: "PREPARE TO DIE!"

RAVNOS: "Not so fast! Chimeristry 10!"

TREMERE: "Chimeristry 10? You mean..."

RAVNOS: "Yup. ''Reality.'' I'll turn us all into a roleplaying game."

TREMERE: "You wouldn't!"

RAVNOS: "I just did."

TREMERE: "NOOOOOOOO!!!"

[RAVNOS, TREMERE, and the corpses of the other antediluvians are replaced by a series of hardback and paperback game supplements]

THE END
-from here (http://www.duke.edu/web/DRAGO/humor/antes.html).

Rutee
2008-02-10, 06:29 PM
Yeah, I know. Higher level Disciplines are like Exalted. I'm used to that level of power though.

The trick, I suppose, is getting everyone to be capable of competing with each other. Incidentally, there is no Umbra in this setting, if that helps matters.