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Bosaxon
2008-02-09, 11:07 PM
I'm currently in a gestalt campaign and feel like my current character is a bit "over the top" (read: Dread Necro6//Fighter 6 who uses his spells to shame his challengers. The more people who see the better) for the plot. We're employed by a theives guild to rob, ransom, and rough up targets while following our own little storylines, mine of which includes hunting a noble I defeated in a joust the noble started. A Metropolis is our base of operations, and I have a feeling when I reach 8th level, my zombies will draw a lot of unnecessary attention.

Instead, I think I'd like to address a flaw or two in our party: ranged attacks and knowledge (local) and (nobility and royalty). This is the build I'm considering

Human Factotum5/Order of the Bow Initiate1//Ranger6

Str 16, Dex 17 (+1 at lvl 4), Con 16, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 12

1. Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
H. Point Blank Shot
R2: Archery Combat Style
3:Precise Shot
R4: ACF: Distracting Attack
6: Greater Rapid Shot

I'm planning on progressing the OofBI until level nine (+5d8 precise damage) and staying constant with the ranger. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome. I'm sorta iffy about the Greater Rapid Shot feat, mostly because it was just a filler that kinda worked.

Akisa
2008-02-09, 11:56 PM
Here a hint, cleric makes the best archers. Become an Elf with the Elf Domain (for point blank shot) and then take precise shot. There also the Divine Meta Magic route...

Eldmor
2008-02-10, 12:11 AM
Then pick up Zen Archery and see if your DM will let you use WIS to qualify for archery feats. If not, that's still fine. Just now your Wisdom is definitely the dominant stat in your build. Might want to also consider Psychic Warrior, manifests using Wisdom and has some nice self-buffs.

Annarrkkii
2008-02-10, 12:19 AM
Order of the Bow Initiate is not that good, really, as far as archery classes go. Cose Combat shot, while a nice idea, is really not that great, all things considered, and multiple attacks beat out a single Precision Shot, anyway—even when you tack on Spring Shot. Almost all of WotC's attempts at creating archery-PCs have failed miserably. Arcane Archer is a flop, and Order of the Bow Initiate beats out Fighter levels, but not much else. If you want a PrC for your Archer. Even grabbing two levels of Exotic Weapon Master for the Greatbow and picking up Close-Quarters Combat and Ranged Disarm is no good because of the burned proficiency and Focus feats that are otherwise worthless. That Factotum is a decent idea to advance on one side, but Cleric // Ranger would be more effective, if all you're going for is archery power. Maybe multiclassing into something like Kensai if you're really looking for a useful prestige class. But not OotB—it makes you take Weapon Focus, and all it grants are two bonus feats and one marginally useful ability. I will grant you that Shot On the Run with a ranged precision attack can be pretty, but you're still a one-trick pony without some Cleric levels, or another way to diversify.

As character design CAN be based on more than optimization, if you really want Order of the Bow Initiate and don't want to infringe on the party cleric, then Scout levels will help you build your Shot On the Run/ranged precision combo by tacking on some extra d6s of damage and pumping your AC.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-10, 05:57 AM
actually arcane archer is good in gestalt.
6 levels fighter for the feats and 6 levels wizard, then exchange fighter levels for arcane archer and keep wizard maxed.
however you wanted to play an archer specifically so i'm assuming wizard is not what you want?

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-02-10, 09:32 AM
That is why the Marksman from Untapped Potential is the best Archery related class. It is a full base class; also happens to be the the only Psionic base class with a full BAB. Book is available from Malhavoc Press; and is compatible with 3.5 rules. It's "sister" book, Hyperconsious, is also very impressive. It does have some dead levels, but is wicked fun to play. In a Gestalt, though, I would pair it with Warblade (Stone Dragon,White Raven), take the EWP, and have an Elvencraft Greatbow (can be used as a Greatsword in melee).

Bosaxon
2008-02-10, 12:10 PM
Maybe this is just me, but I fail to see how the Cleric is a best archer class as opposed to any other given class. Sure, you get the spells and the divine chesse, but really, it's not even full BAB (It doesn't matter in Gestalt, I know. I'm just saying). However, the cleric class itself would fit well within the fluff of the character.

@Annarrkkii: The whole point is to be a one trick pony, but I admit that I'd be somewhat limited in what needs to be a slightly versitile game. Especially to play along with the warlock/human paragon//transmuter.

Here's the revision:
Elf Cleric6//Ranger6 of Solonar Thelandira

STR 16, Dex 19 (+1 at level 4), Con 14, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 12

Domains: Elf, War
Favored Enemy: Human +4, Undead +2

1. Precise Shot
3. Plunging Shot
6. Woodland Archer


The cleric aspect will be more for utility spells than offensive or defensive capabilities(other than the War domain. Keep reading). He's an archer first and foremost, and I plan on playing him as a hide-snipe-hide. I plan on taking the Holy Warrior reserve feat at 9th.

Neftren
2008-02-10, 02:05 PM
I dunno, I'm thinking...

Scout//Fighter
Highland Stalker//Rogue
Order of the Bow Initiate//Scout

Then pick up that feat that lets you stack rogue and scout levels for skirmish and sneak attack. Mix it up even more by adding Marshal levels, so you can do a ranged full attack. If you can flank your opponent or if you get a ring of blinking, your opponent is pretty much screwed.

Full BAB + Full Skirmish + Full Sneak Attack Progressions = Machine Gun.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-10, 02:29 PM
Bosaxon:
Long-run, in Gestalt, you want a full caster on one side so that you don't get left behind at high levels.

Might I suggest something Simple?

Cloistered Cleric (UA variant - same book as the Gestalt rules)//Fighter.

Fighter gives you full BAB, martial weapon proficiency, HP, and all the feats you need.

Cloistered Cleric gives you skill points, all knoweledge skills as class skills, and full casting.

If you want, make that a Cloistered Cleric-6//Fighter-5/Order of the Bow Initiate-1.

You might also sub Fighter with Ranger, if you don't have that high a Dex, as the Ranger doesn't need to qualify for the class bonus feats.

Bosaxon
2008-02-10, 02:58 PM
Bosaxon:
Long-run, in Gestalt, you want a full caster on one side so that you don't get left behind at high levels.

Might I suggest something Simple?

Cloistered Cleric (UA variant - same book as the Gestalt rules)//Fighter.

Fighter gives you full BAB, martial weapon proficiency, HP, and all the feats you need.

Cloistered Cleric gives you skill points, all knoweledge skills as class skills, and full casting.

If you want, make that a Cloistered Cleric-6//Fighter-5/Order of the Bow Initiate-1.

You might also sub Fighter with Ranger, if you don't have that high a Dex, as the Ranger doesn't need to qualify for the class bonus feats.

Probably the closested to what I was intending whille planning for upper levels. Thanks a lot

Akisa
2008-02-10, 03:46 PM
Maybe this is just me, but I fail to see how the Cleric is a best archer class as opposed to any other given class. Sure, you get the spells and the divine chesse, but really, it's not even full BAB (It doesn't matter in Gestalt, I know. I'm just saying). However, the cleric class itself would fit well within the fluff of the character.

@Annarrkkii: The whole point is to be a one trick pony, but I admit that I'd be somewhat limited in what needs to be a slightly versitile game. Especially to play along with the warlock/human paragon//transmuter.

Here's the revision:
Elf Cleric6//Ranger6 of Solonar Thelandira

STR 16, Dex 19 (+1 at level 4), Con 14, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 12

Domains: Elf, War
Favored Enemy: Human +4, Undead +2

1. Precise Shot
3. Plunging Shot
6. Woodland Archer


The cleric aspect will be more for utility spells than offensive or defensive capabilities(other than the War domain. Keep reading). He's an archer first and foremost, and I plan on playing him as a hide-snipe-hide. I plan on taking the Holy Warrior reserve feat at 9th.

With Divine Meta Magic Persistent Spell Divine power gives you full BAB and plus 6 strength so you could get a bow with 3 extra mighty. Divine Favor gives you an extra 1-3 damage. You can cast Greater magic weapon and Magic vestment, this would allow you allow you add other enchantments on your weapons like fire or holy without sacrificing to hit and/or save money. With bead of Karma your spells are 20% less likely to be dispelled and if you can befriend a bard you could even get another +2 caster level to your divine spells.

Edit oh wait you're level 6... So your divine favor would +2 but I could look at Spell Compendium so for 1-3 spells that would work wonders for you.

Bosaxon
2008-02-10, 09:31 PM
After tonight's session, and my DN/fighter being declared a terrorist by the army after a seemingly one man raid on a military base outside of town, I think I want to keep Lefty. Besides, he's just starting to pen a manifesto.

Thanks for the advice though.

Ted_Stryker
2008-02-10, 10:32 PM
This advice then becomes for future reference, but another thing about Cleric for a Gestalt archery build is that the Cleric version of Bestow Curse is a 3rd level spell, and thus can be cast into Spell-Storing arrows. BC is a 4th level arcane spell (at least for Sor/Wiz, there could be other classes I'm not aware of that have it arcane and 3rd level). You can become reasonably menacing at mid-levels using a curse-shooting archer.

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-11, 12:13 PM
Soul Bow//Ranger is a great gestalt archer combination. The WIS synergy and ranger spells (spell compedium is your friend) plus the special abillities of the soul bow make you very potent. With the right spells and a phase arrow you can hit virtually anyone in the world with an arrow at any time, no matter where they are.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-11, 12:30 PM
I see a lot of Arcane Archer-bashing, but I don't see what the problem is. +5 Holy Dragonbane Icy Burst Bow of Distance and Speed, anyone (that being +5 Enchant Arrow and a +1 Bow of MSCE)

Draz74
2008-02-11, 02:14 PM
I see a lot of Arcane Archer-bashing, but I don't see what the problem is. +5 Holy Dragonbane Icy Burst Bow of Distance and Speed, anyone (that being +5 Enchant Arrow and a +1 Bow of MSCE)

Problems with Arcane Archer:
- the +5 enhancement bonus to their bow is much better to get via Greater Magic Weapon spell, anyway.
- Phase Arrow, Death Arrow, and all those others (except Imbue Arrow) are really weak, especially for how rarely you can use them.
- You have to gimp your archery abilities by dipping a caster class before you get into the PrC, and the PrC doesn't even reward you by progressing those casting abilities at all.

Telonius
2008-02-11, 02:35 PM
Cloistered Cleric6 // Rogue5 Ranger(or Fighter)1, perhaps? Sneak Attack is probably going to be the best source of extra damage you can get to bump up your archery. With all those skill points, you'll have Knowledge(everything), and still be able to sneak around pretty well.

Another (possibly insane) idea: CC6// Rogue5 Monk1. Go unarmored, bump up your Wis, take Zen Archery. It'll benefit your AC, give you a bit better Reflex save, and give you a feat. (Stunning Fist, if you happen to get close to someone).

Draz74
2008-02-11, 02:53 PM
Cloistered Cleric6 // Rogue5 Ranger(or Fighter)1, perhaps? Sneak Attack is probably going to be the best source of extra damage you can get to bump up your archery.

Or Skirmish ... Cloistered Cleric 6//Scout 4/Ranger 2, going into more Ranger levels, going for Swift Hunter and Greater Manyshot.

Fishy
2008-02-12, 03:16 AM
Soul Bow//Ranger is a great gestalt archer combination. The WIS synergy and ranger spells (spell compedium is your friend) plus the special abillities of the soul bow make you very potent. With the right spells and a phase arrow you can hit virtually anyone in the world with an arrow at any time, no matter where they are.

Mmm, Soulbow. I'm certain it's disgustingly sub-optimal, but I'd love to try a Soulknife/Soulbow//Duskblade/Arcane Archer someday.

For the greedy, there's also Scout//Soulknife/Psychic Warrior/Soulbow/Elocater. Among other levitate-y and teleport-y goodness, Elocater 7 gives you the ability to take two five-foot-steps in a round: every single one of your full attacks has your Scout's Skirmish damage on top- with Psychic Strike and Psionic Shot on top of that. You have to set some feats on fire to get Spring Attack, but PsiWar, Soulbow and Scout will help make up the difference.

EDIT: Of course, neither of those builds really do their thing at level 6. Nevermind.

Person_Man
2008-02-12, 10:30 AM
Order of the Bow Initiate is a horrible prestige class. Their primary class ability, Precision Shot, is a Standard Action. That means you fire 1 arrow. Any class with the archery feat tree should be firing several arrows per turn. You can increase the effectiveness of these arrows in a wide variety of ways:

1) Spells: Be a cleric, archivist, or something similar. In gestalt games, you can also pull off arcane casters, since you won't have a BAB problem. Buff yourself and your weapons. Use Divine Power if necessary for full BAB. Fly. Use battlefield control. Summon some monsters. Rain death down on your enemies.

2) Stacking effects: If you have a +1 Flaming Composite Longbow and a +1 Frost Arrow and a 12th level caster who uses Greater Magic Weapon, you can fire +3 Flaming Frost attacks. This scales very well, and the only real limit to this is how much money you have. The Kensai PrC and the Ancestral Relic feat are good ways to get powerful weapons, giving you plenty of left over gp for special ammo (Bane, Holy, special materials, Wounding, Exploding, etc).

3) Cunning Surge: Greater Manyshot is a standard action. Most spells are a standard action. Cunning Surge gives you an extra Standard Action once every combat.

4) Precision Damage: Buy a Ring of Blinking or Wand of Greater Invisibility. Get Greater Manyshot. I would argue that this isn't very effective for some campaigns, because so many enemies are immune to precision damage.

Bosaxon
2008-02-12, 11:26 AM
EDIT: Of course, neither of those builds really do their thing at level 6. Nevermind.

Like I said, my restrictions on the thread are moot as a raid on a military base reaffirmed my love of Kenesaw "Lefty" Landis. Dungeoncrasher ACF FTW!

Feel free to discuss any level gestalt archery builds.