Arena Tournament, Round 24: BlueMoon vs Kaldar

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 24: BlueMoon vs. Kaldar

Map:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/Kyeudo/GlassArena.jpg


XP Award: 600 XP
GP Award: 600 GP

Bronz - BlueMoon (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=27302)
Bigmac - Kaldar (http://www.3edb.com/viewCharacter.asp?cid=16948)

All Combatants, please roll initiative.

[Bigmac]

Rolling Init. Also buying a scroll of hold person and a punching dagger

[roll0]

[Bronz]

Hold person? Nice. Surprised the match with Buell is over already.
I'll have to think about my equipment. I'll roll initiative but I don't expect you to go (or you can buy in response) if you win initiative.

[roll0]

[Bronz]

Just for the hell of it I bought a potion of invisibility.

Let's get it on!

[Bigmac]

<sigh> I guess I'll buy a scroll of blindsight then.

[Bigmac]

Kaldar Round 1

I decided that I should probably buy another scroll of hold person as well (in case one doesn't work for some reason). :smalltongue:

Kaldar starts off holding a scroll in one hand and nothing in the other. He starts in Y (13 or 14, whichever side BlueMoon is on) and moves to R (13/14). He then readies an action.

Stats:

Kaldar will also activate his travel devotion as a swift action. He's carryin a scroll of hold person

HP: 14
AC: 17
Effects: Travel Devotion 1/10, Readied Action
Location: R13 (or 14 depending on BlueMoons starting loc).

Ready Action

Cast Hold Person on BlueMoon if I get LoE and he's in range of the spell.


Readied Spells

0: Guidance, Virtue, Create Water x2
1: Command x2, Sanctuary, (Rhino's Rush)

[Bronz]

BlueMoon - round 1


Start: B13, Guirasame and script in hand
Swift: Use script
Free: Shift and Rage
Move: Move to M12

Standard:

Ready an action to move if Kaldar gains LoE or moves more than 30'


Stats!:

HP: 27
AC: 17
Active Buffs: Shift 1/8, Rage 1/8, Punishing Stance */*
Current Speed: 70
Current Location: M12

[Bigmac]

Sorry,your move was a little unexpected so I had to take some time to think about what i was going to do.

Kaldar round 2

Kaldar wil draw his shield (but it is still loosed and not active yet so to speak)as a move action and then ready an action

Stats:

HP: 14
AC: 17
Effects: Travel Devotion /10, Readied Action
Location: R13

Ready Action

take a 5ft step and cast Cast Hold Person on BlueMoon if 1) he attacks me, 2) if he gets 5ft from me and doesn't attack (i.e readies an action which we have been treating as an observable evant) 3) he stops moving and I have LoE and he's in range of the spell


Readied Spells

0: Guidance, Virtue, Create Water x2
1: Command x2, Sanctuary, (Rhino's Rush)

[Bronz]

BlueMoon - round 2

Move: Move to M11 (turn not done!)

I need to know if anything happens when I move here (ie LoE from you)


Stats!:

HP: 27
AC: 17
Active Buffs: Shift 1/8, Rage 1/8, Punishing Stance */*
Current Speed: 70
Current Location: M12

[Bigmac]

nothing happens

[Bronz]

BlueMoon - round 2 (cont'd)

In that case, I continue on.


Move (cont'd): Continue move to Q13
Standard:

Ready an action to Steely Strike if he acts in anyway.



Ah, I love the quick ones. Either way this will be over soon.



Stats!:

HP: 27
AC: 17
Active Buffs: Shift 2/8, Rage 2/8, Punishing Stance */*
Current Speed: 70
Current Location: Q13

[Bronz]

Sorry. End turn.

[Bigmac]

I need to know, did you ready an action when you got to Q13? We've been treating readied actions as observable events, so that's why I'm asking.

[Bronz]

Oh? Didn't know that. Must have missed the match with that ruling.

In any case, yup, there is indeed a readied action ready. If that makes sense.

Edit: So wait, you can ready an action in response to the readying of an action by another?

It just dawned on me, but that can be substantial in tactics, and should definitely be on the front page as such.

[Bigmac]

Well, I was assuming that was the case. I mean, we've been posting So and so moves and readies an action so that's why I figured I could react to it. But now that I think about it, there hasn't been ruleing on it, so not sure which way to go. The specific wording of (one of) my ready action triggers was

if he gets 5ft from me and doesn't attack (i.e readies an action which we have been treating as an observable evant)

So either way my action should trigger before your ready action, weither I could observe it or not.

Kaldar takes a 5ft step to Q14 and casts hold person defensivly
[roll0] vs DC 17
[roll1] vs DC4

Edit: Looks like it worked. Make a will save.

Stats:

Coming soon

[Bronz]

Alright. But here's my question now. Does my ready action go off in response to your action? Honestly I've never had something like that trigger before.

Would you want me to ask for a ref or you just want to self ref?

If Self Ref:
Check my readied action and see if it triggers due to your actions just taken.


I'll roll the save after that. Don't want to know the result of something that may not pass and influence my actions.

[Bigmac]

Well, my action was set to trigger if you got 5ft from me and didn't attack. Which happened when you started to ready an action. Since readying is a standard action and not a swift or immedeate one, it takes a some amount of time, and during that time I moved and casted in response to your not attacking (readying). Ready action rules state that my action would happen just before the trigger that caused it (i.e. you readying the action) so I move and cast just before you ready, and then after I've cast you finish readying your action.

That's how I see it, but I might be biased. At least that's how the scenario played out in my head when I came up with the trigger. Feel free to get another ref to look at it if you think there's something wrong in my arguement.

[Bronz]

Honestly I think I see it that way too. The more I think about it, the more the way you stated works in my head.

So, no trigger.

I will use my moment of perfect mind maneuver.

[roll0] vs. DC13

Edit: Looks like I saved. Your turn.

[Bigmac]

I will use my moment of perfect mind maneuver.


I was hopeing for that honestly. I think I found a flaw in your character build and it's my only hope for this match.

From the SRD class descriptions:


Rage (Ex):
<snip>
While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function.
<snip>


Now, activating the maneuver does not require concentration. From ToB pg. 39:

Unlike with spells or powers, you need not concentrate to initiate a maneuver or stance.

So, you are able to initiate the moment of perfect mind maneuver, but you can't use the concentration skill. So, in my opnion, your will save then becomes your concentartion check which is either a 0 or a 9. Either way I think it would cause you to fail your save.

I'll go ask a high ref to come in and give their opnion.

[Paladin Latham]

I think he's got you there Bronz. You can't use Concentration at all while raging, even for a manuever. Roll a regular old will save.

Edit: unless the issue is whether or not he auto-fails for attempting it. I'd say just reroll a regular will save. Its not like his character wouldn't know that he couldn't do that.

[theterran]

Ref Terran

Interesting...

I will agree that BlueMoon cannot use his concentration skill while raging, which is spelled out quite plainly...

Let me look around ToB and see if he could actually use that maneuver...

In the meantime...if any other ref would like to jump in and make a ruling, go for it...

I'll post back here when I've taken a look at ToB.

(Edit)@ Paladin.

What BM is saying is that BlueMoon has used his maneuver and should therefore, take his concentration roll, which he cannot make....

This is just plain confusing...

[Bronz]

Whoa, Mavianesque nitpicking right there my friend. Nicely done. Obviously I disagree, as maneuver itself is called, and happens to call on the concentration skill as a check.

It mentions specifically anytime you need to make a will save.

And the question remains also. If indeed I am not able to make a check, if I cannot do so am I allowed a Will save? As the concentration check replaces the will save, if the check is impossible the will save should be doable no?

But of course I'm bias so we'll see what happens.

[Bronz]

Ninja'd by two refs, which is a good thing.

I will forgo the use of the maneuver and make a will save as per Paladin.

[roll0] vs. DC13 (+2 from rage)


Edit: Seems like I missed by one. I initiate Mad Foam Rager. Your go.
Edit2: The point is moot anyway since I failed the save. I have one round to live heh

[Bigmac]

Edit: NINJAS EVERYWHER!

the following is still valid, and it deserves some thought, even if the question is irrelivent.

I learned from the best (Mavian). I still suggest that you would fail the concentration check and that since that REPLACES your will save (for better or worse) then you would be unable to concentrate. The initiation of the maneuver is a swift action, and clearly not concentrating itself. Thus the maneuver is activated and your concentration check replaces your will save. How you make a concentration check while raging is the real question that a high ref needs to sort out. If you fail you concentration check (which you should since you're raging), it wouldn't revert back to a will save. Rather you tried to rely on your clarity of mind to help you when you were being controlled by your emotions and thus it fails.

As far as what Paladin says about the character knowing better, I refer you back to where my cleric was unable to cast a spell because he didn't have a free hand. He would have known better too, but was still held to the posted action.

[Bronz]

Right, the question is if it reverts or not automatically. If the check just doesn't happen I would essentially autofail, as player choice trumps "what the character would do" everytime here. If it reverts since a concentration check is literally impossible, not expending the maneuver, then there is a will save. A conundrum to be sure.

But, just to clarify, the maneuver is an immediate action. Just to be nit picky :smallcool:

However, we can iron this out later. Let's get on with the match!

[Bigmac]

Kaldar round 3

Drop the scroll as a free action. Move to Q17 and then back to Q14 as a swift action. Draw a punching dagger during the move as a free action. Deliver a Cue-da-grace with punching dagger as a full round action.

[roll0]
[roll1]

DC 26 fort save to survive.

[Paladin Latham]

Mechanically, Bigmac is right. This has happened many times in the past. Now its noted for future matches. It should be ruled as such. I think Mad Foam still takes place then.

Edit: Slow, Paladin. Too slow...

[Bronz]

Ok. We have a tactical error here that definitely needs resolved. I just looked up Mad Foam Rager, and as I thought it was a no action, it is an immediate action, and therefore we must figure out if my immediate action is spent (as the concentration check is literally impossible).

If it is spent, I need to save. If it is not, I am not paralyzed due to Mad Foam Rager delaying the spell effect for a round.

[Bigmac]

Well, you declared you were using the maneuver. It doesn't require concentration to use, so there is NO reason why you shouldn't be held to using it.

Weither it fails and reverts or auto fails is up to the high ref, but essentially a moot point right now.

Since you already declared your use of the maneuver, then you can't really use Mad Foam Rager to delay it's effects since it too is an immedeate action and you can only have one of those per round.

[Bronz]

Alright, I'll go along with that, though I still think if the Concentration check is impossible the maneuver reverts and is also impossible.

I will go along with things for now though:
Let's see if I get lucky. I get held, then on your turn you move. I get a new will save (due to hold person)

[roll0] DC13

Edit: I failed that save, and you attack me. As I am not technically flat footed, and can take purely mental actions, I use Mad Foam Rager to delay your coup de grace til the end of my next turn.

Probably a formality but I need to delay death as much as possible.

[Bronz]

I might as well just do my saves to get this over with. The damage is probably going to be enough to kill me anyway.

[roll0] DC13

[roll1] 1st coup de grace
[roll2] incoming 2nd coup de grace

[Bronz]

So I lose by a technicality. Ready for the next one.

Edit: Fort saves were supposed to be at +9. Failed anyway heh.
Edit2: I'm an idiot. For two reasons. GAH!

[Bigmac]

Well, you're are held at least until your turn to act in round 3 when you get your next chance to make will save.

I act first in round 3, so I move and make my attack. IF you survive that, then you can make another save.

Since you used your rager ability to delay the effects of the coup de grace, you make it to the middle of round 3, and then you can make your will save, which you failed. Hold person lasts 2 rounds, so you will be held till your turn to act in the middle of round 4.

You are delaying the effects of the coup de grace till round 4, when it will become active at the exact same time you become unheld.

Since you aren't down yet, Kaldar will deliver another coup de grace for good measure.

[roll0]
[roll1]

[Bigmac]

Well, I was hope to be able to cheese that match from you. I wasn't sure it would work, and I'm positive you're not going to fall for it a second time. Guess I'll have to think of something else to use to destory a mad foam raging barbarian that can obliterate your in one touch. I'll work on getting a new match thread set up if you're sure you don't want to wait for Kyeudo to come in and give it the once over before we start again.

[Paladin Latham]

High Ref Paladin Latham

One of you can set up the rematch. For gods sake back this match and that one up in the archives!

Kaldar is declared the winner and recieves 600xp and 600gp.

[Bronz]

Eh I'd rather just get on with it. Blue is level three anyway and some gold isn't going to change anything in the long run.

[Paladin Latham]

Just a thought: Its going to get harder to find 8 players for level 3 and up matches. Should we just have 4 gladiators at double elimination for those kinds of rounds?

Edit: If you're serious about forfeiting the next match, you get second place gold and Kaldar gets another 600xp and 1st place gold.

[Bronz]

WHOA! Who said I was forfeiting the next match? I said to move forward with the next match and not wait for Kyeudo to verify the rulings we have here.

No forfeit for me!

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Bigmac asked me to make a final ruling here to clear up the manuver monkey buisness in case it happens in later rounds.

Every ruling followed seems A OK.

The manuver does not require you to be able to make a Concentration check to be activated, and so you can activate it while unable to Concentrate.

Once an action is declared, so long as the initial action was legal, the action continues, even if the legal action would immediately fail due to other circumstances.

The manuver specificly replaces your Will save with a Concentration check. It does not give you an either/or choice. Since you can't Concentrate while raging, all Concentration checks while raging automaticly fail. Therefore the Will save was replaced by a failed Concentration check.

EDIT: We should probably add "Mavianesque" to the terminology section. :smallwink: