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Aquillion
2008-02-10, 05:12 PM
I was looking over the epic feat listing on d20srd, and, well. Some of these seem a bit... pathetic? Especially when compared with what casters get? Let's see, now...

Augmented Alchemy? So you can deal 2d6 damage with alchemist's fire, and cover a 20-foot radius with a thunderstone? Gee.

Blinding Speed? Yeah, sure, haste is good, but giving up an epic feat to be able to cast a (very short duration) 3rd-level spell as a free action doesn't strike me as that hot.

Damage Reduction? Gee, 3 whole points of damage reduction? And I just have to spend an epic feat on it? I'm sold!

Deafening Song. Deafening opponents just isn't that great.

Extended Life Span is just flavor, mostly...

Improved Aura Of Courage. An extra +4 against fear effects?

Improved Darkvision / Improved Low-Light Vision: Nothing to say. Utterly worthless epic feats. Wouldn't even be worth it as regular feats.

Improved Favored Enemy. +1 to a bunch of rolls against favored enemies. Pathetic.

Legendary Climber. Is it possible to make a build based around climbing?

Overwhelming Critical. 1d6 extra damage on a critical? At level 21+? Really? And they call it 'overwhelming?' This is another one that wouldn't even be worth it as a regular feat, except at fairly low levels.

Penetrate Damage Reduction. This would be marginally worth it if it let you penetrate all damage reduction, or at least all material-based damage reduction. But just one material? Just buy a weapon of that material, already.

Perfect Health. For people who really, really envy Paladins, I guess. Bonus points for making you immune to poisons with a save DC of 25 or less... at level 21+, with requirements of 25 con and great fortitude, so it's hard to picture you failing those saves very often anyway.

Polyglot. For people who just have to spend an epic feat to mimic a 2nd-4th level spell (which can be made permanent with a permanency spell!)

There are many others, but those in particular stuck out. Geez.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-10, 05:52 PM
This should show you just how much thought went into the ELH.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-10, 05:54 PM
Yep. Furthermore,

Additional Magic Item Space - apart from this feat simply not making sense, reslotting items (or making items with multiple functions) isn't all that expensive for an epic WBL.

Armor Skin - woo, a whole +1 to armor class.

Bane of Enemies - if you want a bane weapon, buy one; you have more cash than epic feats.

Bonus Domain - rather underwhelming, you already have a huge spell list by then, and the domain ability is mostly for low-level anyway.

Bulwark of Defense - defensive stance sucks to begin with

Chaotic Rage - see Bane of Enemies

Combat Archery - you're not supposed to fire a bow within melee range, and there are several better ways of avoiding AoOs.

Dire Charge - now available at level 1 for lion totem barbarians.

Energy resistance - also easily duplicated with magical items.

Et cetera. It would seem that the vast majority of epic feats are completely sucky.

FlyMolo
2008-02-10, 05:55 PM
On the other hand, some classes simply have epic feats coming out of the wazoo. DR isn't so bad, really, and it stacks with itself. And the trouble is, epic levels compress. The difference between a level 5 and 10? or 1 and 10? Large difference. The difference between a level 30 and 35? minimal. The difference is basically epic feats. That little bit extra FH, etcetera.

But yes. Polyglot does suck. It's fun for flavor, though.

valadil
2008-02-10, 06:09 PM
Just out of curiosity, are any of those epic feats prereqs to better feats? Dodge is a terrible feat, but gets taken a lot in order to hit prereqs.

Also, I think some of the epic feats aren't that great as you're progressing. Nobody at level 21 is going to take epic DR. But a level 30 fighter who put all his epic fighter feats into it is gonna have DR 15. Not the best, but not bad either. I see things like that as DM options for making a single encounter interesting rather than optimal.

Parvum
2008-02-10, 06:16 PM
Just out of curiosity, are any of those epic feats prereqs to better feats? Dodge is a terrible feat, but gets taken a lot in order to hit prereqs.

The Bane of Enemies feat is basically there to get another feat that forces favored enemies you hit to save or die. Whenever you hit them, if I recall corrrectly.

BRC
2008-02-10, 06:19 PM
I just checked, and provided you have enough ranks in UMD (which you can take try again on), Polyglot can be emulated by any character for a total cost of 10,850 gp, 10,150 for a scroll of permanancy (Which comes with 2000xp for the use of the spell), and 700 for a scroll of tounges. That money is barely anything for an epic-level character. The only reason to take polyglot is to take the Epic Infiltrator PRC.

tyckspoon
2008-02-10, 06:22 PM
The Bane of Enemies feat is basically there to get another feat that forces favored enemies you hit to save or die. Whenever you hit them, if I recall corrrectly.

Just when you crit them, unfortunately. It'd be worth it if you could force the save every time you hit.. as it is, it's just a reasonably decent choice in the middle of a big pool of suck.

Balkash
2008-02-10, 06:23 PM
One epic feat I really hate is Spell Opportunity. So now instead of only being able to use melee attacks as an AoO, you can use a touch spell as an AoO, but that still gives your opponent an AoO because you just used a spell in close quarters. AN EPIC FEAT? If you're an EPIC CASTER, NOTHING!!!! should be anywhere near you. If they are, you deserve to die.

Chronos
2008-02-10, 06:25 PM
One I just noticed the other day:
Epic combat expertise (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Epic_Combat_Expertise,all): Just like regular Combat Expertise, except you can move up to half of your BAB onto your AC, instead of being limited to 5 points. All for the low, low price of an epic feat, another epic feat as a prerequisite, a 21 BAB, and a 19 Int.
Superior Expertise (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Superior_Expertise,all): Just like regular, except you can move all of your BAB to AC, and it only requires a BAB of +6. But wait, this is a 3.0 feat... Maybe they decided that that was too overpowered in 3.5? Which brings us to
Improved Combat Expertise (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Improved_Combat_Expertise,all), which is exactly the same thing as Superior Expertise, except 3.5.

So we have here non-epic feats, in both editions, both of which are unquestionably superior to the epic feat.

Indon
2008-02-10, 06:32 PM
Overwhelming Critical. 1d6 extra damage on a critical? At level 21+? Really? And they call it 'overwhelming?' This is another one that wouldn't even be worth it as a regular feat, except at fairly low levels.

There are strength - oriented builds which would find this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#devastatingCritical) feat to be a nice perk, since you can have some pretty insane strength with them.

Weiser_Cain
2008-02-10, 06:32 PM
Epic Prowess - Gain a +1 bonus on all attacks
Did I win anything?

BRC
2008-02-10, 06:33 PM
Epic Prowess - Gain a +1 bonus on all attacks
Did I win anything?
Yes, a taco, don't you feel special.

Indon
2008-02-10, 06:34 PM
Epic Prowess - Gain a +1 bonus on all attacks
Did I win anything?

Not so long as Diminutive Wild Shape exists.

The_Snark
2008-02-10, 06:35 PM
One epic feat I really hate is Spell Opportunity. So now instead of only being able to use melee attacks as an AoO, you can use a touch spell as an AoO, but that still gives your opponent an AoO because you just used a spell in close quarters. AN EPIC FEAT? If you're an EPIC CASTER, NOTHING!!!! should be anywhere near you. If they are, you deserve to die.

Not really. Clerics with Combat Reflexes, maybe Robilar's Gambit, and Harm can make melee opponents unbelievably unhappy with this feat. By the time you have 25 ranks in Concentration, you're autosucceeding your rolls to cast defensively anyway.

Wizards shouldn't be using this feat, naturally. But clerics (or gish classes) can make great use of it.

Overwhelming Critical, by the way, is the prerequisite for Devastating Critical, which forces anything you score a crit on to roll a save against death. With a Strength-based DC. One of the few decent epic feats for a nonspellcasting character, really.

Saph
2008-02-10, 06:35 PM
Dire Charge is okay for dragons (who qualify for epic feats easily due to their enormous HD totals). And Extended Life Span at least does something interesting, although it's never going to come up unless for some bizarre reason you're playing a campaign that continues for centuries.

But other than that, yes, most of the above epic feats are spectacularly bad. They wouldn't even be worth it as regular feats. In fact, most Epic feats are awful, especially when you compare them to the ones that aren't awful, like Multispell and Improved Spell Capacity.

- Saph

Chronos
2008-02-10, 06:40 PM
Not so long as Diminutive Wild Shape exists.That actually has its uses... Diminutive forms can be good for scouting, or sneaking.

But it's kind of pathetic that it's epic. I mean, the image of the nature-dude who turns into a raven is pretty iconic, and you can't even do that until you're rivalling the gods themselves?

weenie
2008-02-10, 06:42 PM
One epic feat I really hate is Spell Opportunity. So now instead of only being able to use melee attacks as an AoO, you can use a touch spell as an AoO, but that still gives your opponent an AoO because you just used a spell in close quarters. AN EPIC FEAT? If you're an EPIC CASTER, NOTHING!!!! should be anywhere near you. If they are, you deserve to die.

This feat would actually be great for an epic level Duskblade with the Mage Slayer feat. Casting a spell, huh? Ok, but could you just make a DC 70 Concentration check first? No? I tought so. *stab*

Otherwise it could be used to cast on the defensive, but it still sucks bad.

puppyavenger
2008-02-10, 07:18 PM
Epic reputation, an example of a good one is epic leadership, big suprise there.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-10, 08:49 PM
\Casting a spell, huh? Ok, but could you just make a DC 70 Concentration check first? No? I tought so. *stab*

Actually, for an epic wizard, the answer is almost certainly yes.

ChaosDefender24
2008-02-10, 09:00 PM
I'm surprised that Epic Toughness hasn't been mentioned yet. Eventually, the non-epic feat Improved Toughness becomes superior to it.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-10, 09:01 PM
That's the reason some books has been stealthily getting epic feats and making them regular feats.
Get Epic Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Specialization, for example. They made a non-epic version (Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization, although it could just have been taken away from the Weapon Master). Or the MageSlayer, originally Spellcaster Harrier in the epic handbook.

GoC
2008-02-10, 09:08 PM
Then there's the overpowered ones: Infinite Deflection+Exceptional Deflection, Multispell, Improved Combat casting, Devastating critical, permanent emanation ect.
And the wierd ones: Dexterous Will, Dexterous Fortitude, Instant Reload
Now those previously powerful spells that have effects even on a failed save are less useful than those that don't!

The_Snark
2008-02-10, 09:25 PM
Improved Combat Casting isn't overpowered; it's all but useless. By the time you can take it, you autosucceed on defensively casting everything up to... 16th-level spells, which you most certainly don't have yet, and by the time you could have them it'll have moved up to 30th-level spells. The sole way that feat could possibly be useful is in circumventing Mage Slayer and Spellcasting Harrier. A lot of the others you mentioned aren't that great for that power level, either; Devastating Critical and Exceptional Deflection are probably about right for epic feats.

Improved Metamagic is, behind Epic Spellcasting, possibly the most overpowered of the lot. Funny how all the overpowered ones involve spellcasting...

GoC
2008-02-10, 09:37 PM
Improved Combat Casting isn't overpowered; it's all but useless. By the time you can take it, you autosucceed on defensively casting everything up to... 16th-level spells, which you most certainly don't have yet, and by the time you could have them it'll have moved up to 30th-level spells. The sole way that feat could possibly be useful is in circumventing Mage Slayer and Spellcasting Harrier. A lot of the others you mentioned aren't that great for that power level, either; Devastating Critical and Exceptional Deflection are probably about right for epic feats.

Improved Metamagic is, behind Epic Spellcasting, possibly the most overpowered of the lot. Funny how all the overpowered ones involve spellcasting...

Countering mage Slayer is countering the only way a non-caster can harm a caster. That's pretty good I think.

Exceptional Deflection+Infinite Deflection makes you immune to spells and armies respectively. As by epic levels you're already immune to spell that allow saves with immunity to rays and such you're able to ignore 99% of spells.

Devastating Critical is murder! A Falchion with some crit enhancing stuff crits 1/3 of the time and with the str+power attack+enhancement noone is going to make the save required. Grab pounce and you can now kill anything in range that isn't protected by a contingency.

I'd say Multispell is the worst... 10 meteor swarms in one turn is very nasty.

mroozee
2008-02-10, 09:53 PM
Yep. Furthermore,

Bane of Enemies - if you want a bane weapon, buy one; you have more cash than epic feats.



Bane of Enemies is not particularly strong, but it's not entirely worthless. Epic level combat types will find themselves pushing the +10 limit on their weapons and this lets you get around that. Using only the SRD, you could take it after you take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical, and follow it up with Death of Enemies (and Great Cleave).

Using two +3 Brilliant Energy Kukris of Speed, these become +5 Brilliant Energy Kukris of Speed +2d6 Damage, Critical Threat on a 15 (Save or Die) and you get 10 Attacks per Round. An extra 90 or so melee damage per round isn't that terrible for an Epic Level Feat.

This is especially nice if your favored enemies tend to be powerful but heavily armored (read: pick 5 humanoids).

Indon
2008-02-10, 10:00 PM
That actually has its uses... Diminutive forms can be good for scouting, or sneaking.

But it's kind of pathetic that it's epic. I mean, the image of the nature-dude who turns into a raven is pretty iconic, and you can't even do that until you're rivalling the gods themselves?

Ravens are Tiny. As are cats, rats, and owls. Core has no snake smaller than tiny. Druids don't need a feat to turn into Tiny animals, they just need a decent level.

Using core, this feat lets you turn into a bat.


This is especially nice if your favored enemies tend to be powerful but heavily armored (read: pick 5 humanoids).

What? Pick Dragons at least, they have crazy armor.

Aquillion
2008-02-10, 10:07 PM
One epic feat I really hate is Spell Opportunity. So now instead of only being able to use melee attacks as an AoO, you can use a touch spell as an AoO, but that still gives your opponent an AoO because you just used a spell in close quarters. AN EPIC FEAT? If you're an EPIC CASTER, NOTHING!!!! should be anywhere near you. If they are, you deserve to die.Also, you could combine it with things that increase your reach and things that give your touch spells longer range. All you have to do is carry a spiked chain and be an archmage with Arcane Reach; you don't even have to be proficient with it, since you're never going to attack with it. Presto, if anyone walks up to you, you can hit them with Irresistible Dance, Imprisonment, Plane Shift, Ghoul Touch or whatever as an attack of opportunity... you shouldn't have to rely on it, but it's another layer of defense.

Still not that great, since anything that just walks up to you isn't going to be much of a threat to a wizard... I'd want to have a way to increase my reach all the way to 30 feet, preferably, so I could cast a touch spell on anyone who does anything nearby.

Oh, wait, one other thing... if you read Spell Opportunity carefully, it doesn't say anything about the normal casting time of the spell involved. Hmm, what touch spells are there with excessive casting time?

The_Snark
2008-02-10, 10:13 PM
Countering mage Slayer is countering the only way a non-caster can harm a caster. That's pretty good I think.

Exceptional Deflection+Infinite Deflection makes you immune to spells and armies respectively. As by epic levels you're already immune to spell that allow saves with immunity to rays and such you're able to ignore 99% of spells.

Devastating Critical is murder! A Scimiter with some crit enhancing stuff crits 1/3 of the time and with the str+power attack+enhancement noone is going to make the save required. Grab pounce and you can now kill anything in range that isn't protected by a contingency.

I'd say Multispell is the worst... 10 meteor swarms in one turn is very nasty.

A quickened Teleport spell counters Mage Slayer/Spellcasting Harrier, too, without a waste of two feats.

A third of the time? Not really- you've got to roll a 15 or over, then confirm, and it's useless against anything that's immune to criticals (anybody with heavy fortification armor, plus a third of the creature types). And epic monsters frequently have very, very high Fortitude saves. Power Attack and enhancement bonuses to your sword don't actually affect the save DC, so assuming you're human, it'll end up as about... DC 33 at level 22? High, but a lot of enemies can certainly make it, and the ones that can't tend to be spellcasters. This one's pretty balanced as epic goes, especially since it requires a lot of (not very good) feats as prerequisites.

Multispell is very powerful too, no question about it, but I'd say Improved Metamagic is worse; anybody hit with a maximized, empowered, twinned, split-ray Enervation will probably agree. (Average of 19 to 25 negative levels, depending on how your DM rules Split Ray and Twin Spell to interact.) And that's using 1 11th-level spell slot, rather than 10 13th-level spell slots.

Finally, Exceptional Deflection combined with Infinite Deflection is a pretty good defense, but there's a 4th-level spell that renders you immune to all rays and a 3rd-level spell that makes you immune to arrows, plus both feats all but require you to be a monk, so... meh.

GoC
2008-02-10, 10:28 PM
A third of the time? Not really- you've got to roll a 15 or over, then confirm, and it's useless against anything that's immune to criticals (anybody with heavy fortification armor, plus a third of the creature types). And epic monsters frequently have very, very high Fortitude saves. Power Attack and enhancement bonuses to your sword don't actually affect the save DC, so assuming you're human, it'll end up as about... DC 33 at level 22? High, but a lot of enemies can certainly make it, and the ones that can't tend to be spellcasters. This one's pretty balanced as epic goes, especially since it requires a lot of (not very good) feats as prerequisites.
Ah, I misread it as being 10+damage. No idea how...
Still, 5 fort saves is better than most wizards at that level and the DCs will be slightly higher.

sonofzeal
2008-02-10, 10:34 PM
Finally, Exceptional Deflection combined with Infinite Deflection is a pretty good defense, but there's a 4th-level spell that renders you immune to all rays and a 3rd-level spell that makes you immune to arrows, plus both feats all but require you to be a monk, so... meh.
What's the 4th level spell?

The_Snark
2008-02-10, 10:38 PM
Ray Deflection, Spell Compendium. Deflects everything from eldritch blasts to divine wrath (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineBlast).

And yeah, Devastating Critical is still good. But you've got to be able to get that crit in, as opposed to the wizard simply casting a spell at range.

GoC
2008-02-10, 10:53 PM
Ray Deflection, Spell Compendium. Deflects everything from eldritch blasts to divine wrath (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineBlast).

Most non-sensical spell ever...

Salient Divine Abilities also vary massively in power.
I mean if it's a choice between Commandl Plants and Alter Reality which would you pick?
Or Arcane mastery and Annihilating Strike? Thor has Annihilating Strike and can one-shot any deity of rank 19 or lower with 100% certainty. Why on earth is he worried about Lok when the only person who can challenge him and live over six seconds is Odin?:smallconfused:

Or he could use supreme cleave to wipe out the ice giants and prevent Ragnorak!

the_tick_rules
2008-02-10, 10:53 PM
the feat that allows you to wear one extra ring or cloak or whatever. That feat is in no way absolutely awesome to the max.

SofS
2008-02-10, 11:10 PM
One thing to remember is that these feats and the entire epic level system were designed in 3.0, when the abilities they granted were rather better. Casting Haste on oneself was potentially more worthwhile due to the spell being more powerful than it is now. The bit about the additional item slots is significantly more powerful when one has to deal with items made available by the DM rather than getting custom items or having access to some sort of "magic shop", though there are better feats available pre-epic now anyway. Anyone who would run an epic game would be well-advised to work from scratch at this point, I think.

Chronos
2008-02-10, 11:20 PM
Ravens are Tiny. As are cats, rats, and owls. Core has no snake smaller than tiny. Druids don't need a feat to turn into Tiny animals, they just need a decent level.

Using core, this feat lets you turn into a bat.Wait, cats and rats are the same size category? Those are either some awfully big rats, or awfully small cats. And rats are only one size category smaller than gnomes and halflings?

Collin152
2008-02-10, 11:24 PM
Most non-sensical spell ever...

Salient Divine Abilities also vary massively in power.
I mean if it's a choice between Commandl Plants and Alter Reality which would you pick?
Or Arcane mastery and Annihilating Strike? Thor has Annihilating Strike and can one-shot any deity of rank 19 or lower with 100% certainty. Why on earth is he worried about Lok when the only person who can challenge him and live over six seconds is Odin?:smallconfused:

Or he could use supreme cleave to wipe out the ice giants and prevent Ragnorak!

Preventing Ragnarok is not what the gods were about. They knew it was coming, and it was within their power to stop it. Or is? I forget.

the_tick_rules
2008-02-10, 11:26 PM
One thing to remember is that these feats and the entire epic level system were designed in 3.0, when the abilities they granted were rather better. Casting Haste on oneself was potentially more worthwhile due to the spell being more powerful than it is now. The bit about the additional item slots is significantly more powerful when one has to deal with items made available by the DM rather than getting custom items or having access to some sort of "magic shop", though there are better feats available pre-epic now anyway. Anyone who would run an epic game would be well-advised to work from scratch at this point, I think.

i was being sarcastic, the additional item feat rocks.

Indon
2008-02-10, 11:39 PM
Wait, cats and rats are the same size category? Those are either some awfully big rats, or awfully small cats. And rats are only one size category smaller than gnomes and halflings?

Presumably, mice would be diminutive. But mice aren't in core.

And dogs are the same category as gnomes and halflings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm).

It's the problem of quantifying everything smaller than a human into four categories (Small, Tiny, Diminutive, Fine). There are obviously more than four sizes for things - given dogs, cats, rats, bats, and dust particles, two of these objects will need to share a size category. Of course, it's the same problem for all sizing, really.

Also, rats have a swim and climb speed. Interesting.

Aquillion
2008-02-10, 11:40 PM
Most non-sensical spell ever...

Salient Divine Abilities also vary massively in power.
I mean if it's a choice between Commandl Plants and Alter Reality which would you pick?Deities aren't supposed to get to pick their salient divine abilities.

Indon
2008-02-10, 11:41 PM
i was being sarcastic, the additional item feat rocks.

Eh, I dunno. I don't think it's bad, certainly, and it has some pretty wild possibilities for Incarnum characters (I can so bind two different heart chakras!), but it's not that powerful outside of that.

Collin152
2008-02-10, 11:54 PM
Deities aren't supposed to get to pick their salient divine abilities.

So what happens when they gain enough divine ranks? And don't tell me they don't, Vecna diddn't just suddenly get that powerful.

SofS
2008-02-11, 12:07 AM
The problem with the pretty-good additional item feat now is that there's a pre-epic feat in Eberron that lets one use four rings instead of two, which sort of deflates how special it feels to be the person wearing two ugly cloaks instead of one. It's still a worthwhile choice, though, to the right character concept (I like to imagine a tough-as-nails epic fighter blowing feat after feat on additional item slots and acting like some sort of mage-king clotheshorse with his plethora of magical trinkets).

Talic
2008-02-11, 01:13 AM
Still not that great, since anything that just walks up to you isn't going to be much of a threat to a wizard... I'd want to have a way to increase my reach all the way to 30 feet, preferably, so I could cast a touch spell on anyone who does anything nearby.


Spiked Chain + Enlarge (Can be permanencied) = 20 feet reach.
Follow up with either: Willing Deformity + Deformity (Tall) OR
Aberrant Heritage + Inhuman reach.

Now you have 30 ft reach.

Alternately, Psionic Expansion can get you up 2 size categories to Huge, where you would have 30 ft reach. But then you'll have to take the Psion/Mage Theurge. Cerebromancer, I think.

Alternately, design a 5th level enlarge spell that makes you huge (and enlarges anything, not just humanoid), or use shapechange to change into a very very big critter, such as a titan or a giant.

The_Snark
2008-02-11, 01:41 AM
Touch spells can't be channeled through a weapon unless you have some sort of special ability to do so. But a Giant Size spell will work nicely, especially for a cleric, who can imitate it experience-free with Miracle.

And yeah, salient divine abilities are even less balanced than epic feats, if such is possible. Deities are not meant to be balanced; for that matter, they're not really meant to be used in play. Those abilities certainly aren't meant for player characters.

Deities are supposed to gain what's appropriate for their portfolios- presumably, when they gain more divine rank, their new abilities have something to do with why they got it. If they stole it from a fire deity, they're getting fire-related abilities. If they got more worshippers, they get abilities relating to... whatever their worshippers believe they're the patron of.

mroozee
2008-02-11, 05:36 AM
What? Pick Dragons at least, they have crazy armor.

I wouldn't recommend trying to melee with creatures that fly faster than you and have breath weapons. If you can get a full melee attack on a Favored Enemy Dragon, use Full Power Attack with Scimitars rather than Kukri's and replace Death of Enemies (they're Fort saves are just too good) with Dire Charge or even Two-Weapon Rend. Topping 500 damage in a round should be no problem.

Aquillion
2008-02-11, 06:32 PM
Touch spells can't be channeled through a weapon unless you have some sort of special ability to do so. But a Giant Size spell will work nicely, especially for a cleric, who can imitate it experience-free with Miracle.You don't have to channel them through a weapon. The way it works is like this:

* You take something like Archmage's arcane reach that lets you cast touch spells within a 30-foot range. This is a nice ability anyway, so it's not a big deal.

* You carry reach weapon (+whatever else you use to increase reach.)

* Now, using Spell Opportunity, whenever anything in your reach provokes an attack of opportunity, you may 'cast (and attack) with a touch spell as your attack of opportunity'.

Since you're using Arcane Reach, you can do it at anyone within 30 feet anyway... you don't need to channel it through your weapon, you just need to hold the weapon in your hands to increase your threatened area so they provoke the attack of opportunity to begin with. At no point do you actually make an attack roll with your spiked chain (or whatever). Yes, it's stupid, but there you have it.

(Also note that you'll need a hand free for somatic components, and all reach weapons are two-handed normally... but that's no problem, since you're going to be increasing your size to get extra reach, and the increased size will let you hold the weapon one-handed.)

And I don't think the deity rules are meant to be used for 'advancement' like that... sure, you can improve deities, but they're supposed to be designed by DM fiat, aren't they? It's like asking why anyone would be a Wyrm when they can be a Great wyrm.

Orzel
2008-02-11, 07:38 PM
Bane of Enemies is not particularly strong, but it's not entirely worthless. Epic level combat types will find themselves pushing the +10 limit on their weapons and this lets you get around that. Using only the SRD, you could take it after you take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical, and follow it up with Death of Enemies (and Great Cleave).

Using two +3 Brilliant Energy Kukris of Speed, these become +5 Brilliant Energy Kukris of Speed +2d6 Damage, Critical Threat on a 15 (Save or Die) and you get 10 Attacks per Round. An extra 90 or so melee damage per round isn't that terrible for an Epic Level Feat.

This is especially nice if your favored enemies tend to be powerful but heavily armored (read: pick 5 humanoids).


What you're supposed to do is shoot +1 brilliant energy arrows from your +4 seeking, keen, frost bow of speed and save money not putting 5 different "banes" on your arrows.

Or chuck TWF throwing kukris with +8 worth of other enhancements and save 80,000 not getting bane on them.

Bane of Enemies is a ranger's biggest discount. Plus is maked a bar stool into a +5 worth weapon.

LotharBot
2008-02-11, 08:04 PM
Part of the problem with epic feats is that so many of them have been superseded by newer (and possibly broken) material. They weren't written to balance with the builds you can make with 35 splatbooks, but the builds you could make with three 3.0 core books (though, granted, they don't even do that very well.)

Consider, for example, dire charge. It's actually weaker than taking level 1 of lion totem barbarian because pounce applies any round of combat, while dire charge works only in the first round. Now, since I didn't allow my players to take pounce as a pre-epic ability, all four epic melee types in the party* actually DO have dire charge, but if pounce had been available, we'd have all picked it up sooner and saved our epic feats for something more interesting.

Some feats usefulness depends a lot on the exact splatbooks in play. Additional Magic Item Slot becomes nearly worthless if you use the MIC stacking rules (ability and AC modifiers can stack on top of other items, such as a ring of invisibility-and-protection+5) or your DM allows you to create or buy unslotted items. It's more useful if your DM is strict about what items exist in the world and what slots they belong in.

A lot of feats can be underpowered, but used right, can be very effective. Consider Bane of Enemies. Among other things, bane adds +2 to enhancement bonus, making your +5 swords act as +7 against those enemies -- which goes right over the top of DR x/epic. If your DM is the sort who sends you to fight the things you've pissed off throughout your campaign, and you chose those things as favored enemies, it's a fairly powerful feat. Sure, you could have bane (5 different types) on your weapons, but instead, now you can make them holy, wounding, etc. A ranger with a level of paladin can pick up Bane of Enemies and Holy Strike, and have effectively +13 weapons against all favored enemies for 200k instead of 3.4 million. (3.4 million is slightly more than the total WBL for a level 28 character.)

Overall, epic feats are much like any other type of feat. Some of them are utterly useless. Some are OK in some games and worthless in others, due to treasure distribution, enemy distribution, or just DM style. Some can be combined in very broken ways, either with each other or with feats, spells, and abilities from elsewhere. As with anything, choose them wisely.



* I know casters are supposed to "win" at epic. If the point of the game was to win, we'd all play IotSV/CoDzilla/Beguiler/[insert broken classes here]. But our goal is to have fun, and we have fun with our barbarian, fighter, ranger, melee rogue, and non-cheesed cleric. We've done just fine taking down the EL 30+ encounters our DM has thrown our way in the past 4 sessions, even without an arcane caster (he's the DM, and his death was our plot hook.) That just goes to show, the game is what you make it, not what the book or the optimizers say it has to be.

Roland St. Jude
2008-02-11, 08:17 PM
Legendary Leaper. Epic? Or half as good as Leap of the Heavens? :smallsmile:

Fawsto
2008-02-11, 08:46 PM
The "epic" version of combat expertise makes sense.

In fact after lvl 20 you receive Epic Attack Bonus, not Base Attack Bonus. If you did receive BAB you'd get more and more useless attacks while you increase your levels.

Well, Combat Expertise talks about BAB not EAB. So you can't use CE to decrease any number of the EAB pool. Thus there is the epic version taht allows you to use the EAB pool to increase the armor class.

Now... That feat from CWar that lets you use Bigger weapons at no penalty. This is the only feat that seems to be worth for more damage in a easy way. Like, take Monkey Grip at level 21 and the feat at lvl 24. Go creazy.

Now we know that every fighter can keep it up with the casters after level 20 due to this AMAZING feat selection... Wow!

Chronos
2008-02-12, 02:48 AM
The "epic" version of combat expertise makes sense.

In fact after lvl 20 you receive Epic Attack Bonus, not Base Attack Bonus. If you did receive BAB you'd get more and more useless attacks while you increase your levels.So in other words, Epic Combat Expertise is not only worthless, it's also impossible to take it, since it has a requirement of BAB +21. If BAB doesn't continue in Epic, then it's impossible to get BAB +21.

namo
2008-02-12, 07:02 AM
Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
(emphasis mine)

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-12, 07:36 AM
What you're supposed to do is shoot +1 brilliant energy arrows from your +4 seeking, keen, frost bow of speed and save money not putting 5 different "banes" on your arrows.

Then swear as the Brilliant Energy Arrows bounce off the dragon, since Brilliant Energy doesn't ignore natural armour.

KoDT69
2008-02-12, 07:54 AM
If this tells you anything, I have a 40th level Gish style Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster and of his fat stack of feats only a couple are Epic even though like 8 should be Epic. I took Epic Spellcasting, Devastating Critical, and Multispell x2. I would have also taken Intensify Spell, but the multiclassing left him spread too thin to make it worth doing. Yah, only 21 caster levels on a 40th level character! I have broken so many rules of optimization it's not funny. On the other habd he does have Wand Expertise or whatever from Dragon Magazine. Between wands and his Quicken/Multispell/Multispell feats it seems possible to drain even an Epic Monster of around 72 points of STR or DEX or about 48 points of INT, WIS, & CHA! That's the power of metamagic! Combine that with buttloads of cheap damage spells like Acid Splash with my +18d6 Sneak Attack! But yah, most of the Epic feats are useless if all splatbooks are in play.

Telonius
2008-02-12, 01:12 PM
Legendary Climber. Is it possible to make a build based around climbing?


That sounds like a challenge to me. Johan, Epic-level Climber of Doom! Coming soon to Faerun. :smallbiggrin:

Weiser_Cain
2008-02-13, 03:39 AM
Couldn't you bluff/taunt you enemies into trying to follow only to watch them fall to their doom?

Orzel
2008-02-13, 05:53 AM
Then swear as the Brilliant Energy Arrows bounce off the dragon, since Brilliant Energy doesn't ignore natural armour.

You use +1 fiery shock collision arrows on non-humaniod/fey/outsider/giants. Didn't you go to ranger school?

Accuracy for thumbs
Damage for nonthumbs

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-13, 09:59 AM
Overwhelming Critical is actually a solid pre-Epic feat. It's not just 1d6 more damage on a critical, it's 1d6 per multiplier(-1).

Swords and other thin blades: +1d6, or about another multiplier.
Axes, hammers and heavier weapons: +2d6, again, about another multiplier, for the bigger ones.
Pick, Scythe: +3d6, again, another double.

The only thing that does suck about this Feat(if it was not Epic) is how the damage won't be further multiplied(but that only really matters if your original damage was already being superceded by enormous Strength).

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-13, 04:01 PM
In fact after lvl 20 you receive Epic Attack Bonus, not Base Attack Bonus. If you did receive BAB you'd get more and more useless attacks while you increase your levels.
No. They had to add a clause that says BAB cannot grant more than 4 iterative attacks on account of racial hit dice not using epic rules. This clause alone is simply enough to stop the progression at a semi-reasonable point.

All the "Epic Attack Bonus does not grant additional attacks" rule does is screw over the Epic Barbarian that got to 6th level as a wizard before deciding magic was evil and totally switching career paths. Never'll be able to make up that lost iterative attack.

Douglas
2008-02-13, 04:09 PM
You mean 9th level wizard, right? A wizard 6/barbarian 14 has a BAB of 3+14 = 17, more than enough for the fourth iterative attack.

Zincorium
2008-02-13, 04:14 PM
In any case a wizard/barbarian is quite possibly the most screwed-over character I can imagine someone actually making.

Think about it- at low levels you're easily taken out of the fight and you don't have good spells or many of them. When you start in on barbarian, you probably don't have the stats set up for that and you've got a big deficiency in hit points and BAB regardless. You also can't cast spells and rage at the same time so one of your class features is going to be inaccessible in combat. AT high levels you're a gimped melee character in the mage's universe.

I think it can safely be said that a wizard 6/barbarian 14 does not have to worry about going epic. The party can only carry around so much worth of diamonds.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-13, 04:20 PM
You mean 9th level wizard, right? A wizard 6/barbarian 14 has a BAB of 3+14 = 17, more than enough for the fourth iterative attack.
Yeah. That. Sure.

I usually go ahead and do the actual math when I come up with an example, but...

Ah, heck. There's no good "but" for this one.


In any case a wizard/barbarian is quite possibly the most screwed-over character I can imagine someone actually making.
Yeah, the character only makes sense as a concept rather than a build.

I hear some people actually go in for that kind of thing. :smalltongue:

Rutee
2008-02-13, 04:22 PM
A concept doesn't help you if it dies before it can tell its story.

Of course, I see no reason why it would, if the DM had the courtesy to treat your character with kid gloves, in terms of the amount of danger he tosses at you, at least for a while.

Zincorium
2008-02-13, 04:26 PM
Yeah, the character only makes sense as a concept rather than a build.

I hear some people actually go in for that kind of thing. :smalltongue:

Like I said, that I can imagine someone making. I'm surprised someone hasn't brewed up some sort of homebrew PrC for that situation (kind of like how a blackguard gets benefits for having been a paladin previously)

I would, however, state that the correct term for those people is 'masochists'. D&D isn't so good at enabling diverse character ideas, Spirit of the Century or some other more malleable game would be so much more fun.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-13, 04:43 PM
Underpowered PCs aren't bad at all. They just have to shlep through lower CRed opponents, honestly its a bajillion times easier to handle short-bus groups than trying to handle Batman x3 and Cleric McSmachy-Stomper

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 04:47 PM
Like I said, that I can imagine someone making. I'm surprised someone hasn't brewed up some sort of homebrew PrC for that situation (kind of like how a blackguard gets benefits for having been a paladin previously)Rage Mage. It sucks, though (and has an awful name.) It only gets half spell advancement and doesn't have full BAB. When are they going to realize that every gith class needs either full casting or full BAB at a bare minimum?

It's a pity, since the idea a barbarian-sorcerer who is surrounded by destructive magic when they rage is sort of interesting.

Zincorium
2008-02-13, 04:49 PM
Underpowered PCs aren't bad at all. They just have to shlep through lower CRed opponents, honestly its a bajillion times easier to handle short-bus groups than trying to handle Batman x3 and Cleric McSmachy-Stomper

Underpowered PCs in a group of people of the same aren't bad, although I dislike DMing for a really horribly constructed groups. Mixed groups suck.

I've never had a problem with high powered games, mostly because the really cool monsters always seem to be at least 3 CR above what the group's average is.

Edit:

Rage Mage. It sucks, though (and has an awful name.) It only gets half spell advancement and doesn't have full BAB. When are they going to realize that every gith class needs either full casting or full BAB at a bare minimum?

It's a pity, since the idea a barbarian-sorcerer who is surrounded by destructive magic when they rage is sort of interesting.

Rage mage is both horrible and not really what I was thinking of. Especially in this case, since it was postulated the character became a barbarian because they hate magic. I agree with you fully that it needs one of those two and instead of the poorly worded and implemented 'spell rage' should just be able to cast spells, possibly of a certain level per class level, in all types of rage.

What I was thinking was a PrC that disabled previously gained spellcasting but gave you massive bonuses for each level that got disabled. Sort of a 'now I sacrifice all my tomes and secrets, and I will be purified and redeemed in the eyes of Kord' type of character.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-13, 04:59 PM
Underpowered PCs in a group of people of the same aren't bad, although I dislike DMing for a really horribly constructed groups. Mixed groups suck.

Yes. Enormously yes. I once had a group of a tooled up Barb, a full preperation Batman and a commoner basketweaver :smallfrown:

Frosty
2008-02-13, 05:27 PM
What was the basketweaver doing? Being a cohort? Being a follower? Being a follower of the cohort?

Starbuck_II
2008-02-13, 05:32 PM
Yes. Enormously yes. I once had a group of a tooled up Barb, a full preperation Batman and a commoner basketweaver :smallfrown:

Was it a underwater basketweaver?
Was te commoner going into a Bard Prc, one requires basket weaving.

Ninja Chocobo
2008-02-13, 05:36 PM
Now... That feat from CWar that lets you use Bigger weapons at no penalty. This is the only feat that seems to be worth for more damage in a easy way. Like, take Monkey Grip at level 21 and the feat at lvl 24. Go creazy.

Wield Oversized Weapon. It's pretty handy if you want to dual-wield, say, boats.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-13, 05:38 PM
What was the basketweaver doing? Being a cohort? Being a follower? Being a follower of the cohort?

No unfortunately. If they were I could have just tuned it out. No, they were the wisecraker at the back. most ridiculous three sessions I ever ran and that's saying something given the Red Dwarf I've mauled into a cheap laugh.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-13, 06:38 PM
A concept doesn't help you if it dies before it can tell its story.
Well, that's assuming you aren't starting the campaign at the sufficiently epic level where even nine or ten wasted levels isn't a big problem, missing iterative attack notwithstanding.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-13, 06:57 PM
Rage Mage. It sucks, though (and has an awful name.)

No, see, it is a great name, because it rhymes!

(/sarcasm)

What's next, a Stage Sage? The Cage Umbrage? How about a Spell Well?

Collin152
2008-02-13, 07:04 PM
No, see, it is a great name, because it rhymes!

(/sarcasm)

What's next, a Stage Sage? The Cage Umbrage? How about a Spell Well?

What about one for rangers? Like the Ford Lord?

Chronos
2008-02-13, 07:04 PM
Sort of a 'now I sacrifice all my tomes and secrets, and I will be purified and redeemed in the eyes of Kord' type of character."But this rough magic
I here abjure, and, when I have required
some heavenly music, which even now I do,
to work mine end upon their senses that
this airy charm is for, I'll break my staff
And deeper than did ever plummet sound,
I'll drown my book."

--Prospero, The Tempest, V, i, 50-56

Collin152
2008-02-13, 07:07 PM
"But this rough magic
I here abjure, and, when I have required
some heavenly music, which even now I do,
to work mine end upon their senses that
this airy charm is for, I'll break my staff
And deeper than did ever plummet sound,
I'll drown my book."

--Prospero, The Tempest, V, i, 50-56

Who are you, so wise in the words of Shakespeare?

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-13, 08:30 PM
Well, if the Commoner had gone towards Justiciar, they could Hogtie opponents within baskets.:smallbiggrin: See Basketweaver's Handbook on the Wizards board.

Not a joke, it does exist, although the whole concept of the thread might be.

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 08:33 PM
Well, I did once make a Master Basketweaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49561) PRC in the homebrew forum...

Chronos
2008-02-13, 10:15 PM
Who are you, so wise in the words of Shakespeare?I just collect snippets of Shakespeare the same way I collect other fragments of useless information. I'm just glad when I get the opportunity to apply it.

Collin152
2008-02-13, 10:42 PM
I just collect snippets of Shakespeare the same way I collect other fragments of useless information. I'm just glad when I get the opportunity to apply it.

Y'know, I used to have a calender with a new Shakespeare quote each day, along with a little snippet of info about the Bard. What a year!

Weiser_Cain
2008-02-14, 01:39 AM
Is that a feat? if so I'd like to rag on it

SurlySeraph
2008-02-14, 02:01 AM
Well, if the Commoner had gone towards Justiciar, they could Hogtie opponents within baskets.:smallbiggrin: See Basketweaver's Handbook on the Wizards board.

Not a joke, it does exist, although the whole concept of the thread might be.

Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=873736), yes, precious.

You know what's even worse than a Basketweaver's Handbook? Optimized basket-wielding monks. (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-593140) Who, if you scroll down, may be driving basket-tanks.