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CockroachTeaParty
2008-02-10, 07:55 PM
Hello everyone. I have a rather silly problem, and I wonder if anybody else shares my dilemma, and has perhaps discovered a solution for it.

My problem is this: Every time I make a character above, say, 4th level using the rules for the classes presented in the Book of Nine Swords, everything goes swimmingly until it comes time to select their maneuvers known.

The problem comes from the fact that at level 4, and every even level thereafter, a maneuver can be replaced by a newer one of any level. I'm not the most mathematically inclined person, so in order to avoid confusion I often times have to hand pick every maneuver the character knows, switching them out as the opportunity arises, until they've reached the appropriate level.

This is a rather time-consuming process. Is there a faster method of determining the best, highest level maneuvers a character should know at a level higher than 4?

Does this make any sense at all? Or am I really missing a simple solution?

Sucrose
2008-02-10, 08:26 PM
Best thing that I can think of is to act as though you can't switch them out, then do the switching afterward.

For instance, a warblade under this system would pick four first level maneuvers, then one of each level over it until it reached the level that it's supposed to be at. Then, he would do all the switching that he wanted.

FinalJustice
2008-02-10, 08:41 PM
That's really my only issue with ToB characters, when you do a high-level one, this effort is a little annoying and time consuming. I can easily ignore the stupid names and overlook the parts I don't like in the fluff easily in favor of the great mechanics and fun, but I can't work around this.

Usually, I know a few maneuvers I really want and are part of the build, and I work my way on the mechanic to get those, them I play with the others so they aren't useless or redundant. Takes some time, but it's worth it.

Zincorium
2008-02-10, 08:45 PM
There are two levels between each new granting of maneuvers.

So find out what level you're making a character, I'll use 8, and work backwards. I'm going to assume you always swap out the lowest level maneuvers you have (you may wish to adjust this).

At 7th and 8th level, you have access to 4th level maneuvers. So at each level, swap out a lower level maneuver. At 5th and 6th level, you have access to 3rd and would have swapped out more.

Below a certain point you may wish to just gloss it over, as you've already replaced all the low level maneuvers you have.

So let's actually work through this with a warblade.

Just going off chart, taking the highest level possible each time you gain new ones, you would have:
4 1st level
1 2nd level
1 3rd
1 4th

Swap out two of the 1st level ones for 4th level maneuvers.
Swap out the other two 1st level for 3rd level maneuvers.
Since there are no more 1st level maneuvers and we've taken all the high level ones we can, leave the 2nd level one alone.
We end up with:

0 1st level
1 2nd level
3 3rd level
3 4th level


In actual practice, you'd have swapped a 1st for a 2nd at 3rd and 4th, then a 1st for a 3rd at 5th and 6th, then your 2nd level maneuvers for 4th level maneuvers at 7th and 8th. This way just skips some steps.

FinalJustice
2008-02-10, 08:57 PM
I'm not sure if this covers the interdependencies for learning high level maneuvers. Another issue that enforces the level by level construction.

Zincorium
2008-02-10, 08:59 PM
I'm not sure if this covers the interdependencies for learning high level maneuvers. Another issue that enforces the level by level construction.

You have to be somewhat careful, but..

The prerequisites do not have to be lower level. If you switch from a 2nd level diamond mind maneuver to a 5th level diamond mind maneuver, it makes no difference as far as the prerequisites go.

ChaosDefender24
2008-02-10, 09:15 PM
I like planning out the entire maneuver progression on a table beforehand, much like I do with feats. That way your character build has focus and won't be bad. It's a little time-consuming, but more than worth it.

Townopolis
2008-02-10, 09:31 PM
Ok, I've wondered about this, so just to be clear.

Say I learn a... Tiger Claw maneuver, it's level 1 so it has no prereqs, and then I learn a level 3 TC maneuver that requires 1 other TC maneuver.

can I swap out my level 1 maneuver for another level 3 maneuver, using the two level 3 maneuvers to satisfy each others' prereqs?

Or...

I get a level 1 TC maneuver, and two level 3 TC maneuvers, can I swap out my level 1 for a level 5 using the two level 3's to support the level 5, and have the level 3's support each other for prereqs?

that always confused the heck out of me.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-10, 10:01 PM
can I swap out my level 1 maneuver for another level 3 maneuver, using the two level 3 maneuvers to satisfy each others' prereqs?

Yup. Hell, you can even have the TC maneuver qualify itself. Note how it doesn't say "One other Tiger Claw maneuver", but instead says, "One Tiger Claw maneuver"?

sonofzeal
2008-02-10, 10:45 PM
I use a method similar to Zincorium's. I take my highest level that grants a maneuver, figure out what maneuver level it qualifies for, and write that number down. Then, I start working backwards from there, writing down another number of the highest I can learn at each even level and each one that actually grants one, until my total recorded is equal to the total number that I can learn. Easy.

Now, you do have to gloss over some "x-qualifies-for-y" things, but as long as your ending state is legal then you're probably okay, given that you can swap out a prereq just fine.

Proven_Paradox
2008-02-10, 11:12 PM
Zincorium, your method is good but it looks like your calculations are incorrect. With all three of the martial adept classes, you swap maneuvers on even levels except for level 2, not every level, as you seem to be swapping.

Using your method... An 8th level warblade, before swapping, has

4 1st level
1 2nd level
1 3rd level
1 4th level

as you said before. At 8th level, you don't gain a new maneuver, but you can swap an old one out. Swapping a level 1 for a level 4 is probably the way to go, as you said.

3 1st level
1 2nd level
1 3rd level
2 4th level

At 7th level, you can't swap out. At 6th level, you can swap, but you only have 3rd level maneuvers. So, swap a 1st level for a 3rd.

2 1st level
1 2nd level
2 3rd level
2 4th level

5th level means no swapping, but 4th level you can; you don't have 3rd level maneuvers yet, so swap out a 1st level maneuver for a second.

1 1st level
2 2nd level
2 3rd level
2 4th level

Myatar_Panwar
2008-02-10, 11:23 PM
This is a rather time-consuming process.

Try making a Cleric 3/ wizard 3/ Mystic Thurge 10, then we'll talk. :smalltongue:

CockroachTeaParty
2008-02-12, 06:39 PM
Try making a Cleric 3/ wizard 3/ Mystic Thurge 10, then we'll talk. :smalltongue:

I'll see that and raise you a wizard 20 // archivist 20 gestalt.

At any rate, thanks for the suggestions. I'm just glad to see I'm not the only one with frustrations.

BadJuJu
2008-02-13, 12:31 PM
Try making a Cleric 3/ wizard 3/ Mystic Thurge 10, then we'll talk. :smalltongue:

Try a cerebromystictheurgeomancer. Psi, Wiz AND Cleric...pain.