The Sauron compedium

[GoC]

This is supposed to be a place where we finaly nail down exactly what Sauron's powers and capabilities are.

A list of things Sauron has accomplished:
-Ignored one or more lightning bolts fired from the clouds sent by the Valar of sky, Manwe.
The Silmarillion, Akallabeth
But all this was now changed; for the sky itself was darkened, and there were storms of rain and hail in those days, and violent winds; and ever and anon a great ship of the Númenórëans would founder and return not to haven, though such a grief had not till then befallen them since the rising of the Star. And out of the west there would come at times a great cloud in the evening, shaped as it were an eagle, with pinions spread to the north and the south; and slowly it would loom up, blotting out the sunset, and then uttermost night would fall upon Númenor. And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud.
Then men grew afraid. “Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!” they cried. “The Eagles of Manwë are come upon Númenor!” And they fell upon their faces.
Then some few would repent for a season, but others hardened their hearts, and they shook their fists at heaven, saying: “The Lords of the West have plotted against us. They strike first. The next blow shall be ours!” These words the King himself spoke, but they were devised by Sauron.
Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would. When therefore the last portent came they heeded it little. For the land shook under them, and a groaning as of thunder underground was mingled with the roaring of the sea, and smoke issued from the peak of the Meneltarma. But all the more did Ar-Pharazôn press on with his armament.
-Shapeshift into: A huge were-wolf (the largest in history), a vampire (stats unkown), a beautiful human form
Were-wolf:The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 19, Of Beren and Luthien
Now Sauron knew well, as did all in that land, the fate that was decreed for the hound of Valinor, and it came into his thought that he himself would accomplish it. Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge.
Note: The strength of this form could be related to his status as lord of the were-wolves.
Vampire:The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 19, Of Beren and Luthien
Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Tar-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror.
Beautiful form:
[citation needed]
-Sang the song with the other Maia and Valar that Iluvatar used to create the earth.
The Silmarillion, Ainulindale
Then Ilúvatar said to them: “Of the them e that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.”
...
But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: “Behold your Music!” And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew.
...
Iluvatar said, “I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it." And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.
-Attracts evil creatures
Lord of the Rings, Book 1, chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past
“Yes, to Mordor,” said Gandalf, “Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to the summons. And all folk were whispering then of the new Shadow in the South, and its hatred of the West. There were his fine new friends, who would help him in his revenge! Wretched fool! In that land he would learn much, too much for his comfort. And sooner or later as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught, and taken, for examination. That was the way of it, I fear. When he was found he had already been there long, and was on his way back. On some errand of mischief. But that does not matter much now. His worst mischief was done.”
Note: "Controls evil creatures" has been debunked.
-Charismatic enough to convince most of the men of Numenor to worship Morgoth
[choice citations needed]
-Corruption
[citation needed]
[citations related to it's strength needed]
-Immune to heat
[citation needed]
-Fear aura
[citation needed]
[citations related to it's strength needed]
{I've looked up this one and it looks more like a spell then an innate trait}
-Ressurection from the dead
The Silmarillion, Akallabeth
But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.
-Can control the weather
[citaton needed]
Note: Weather control extends to dark clouds and rain and may not be able to create tornados or other extreme weather.
-Has a sense of humour
And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss.
-Can bleed
The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 19, Of Beren and Luthien
Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Tar-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror.

Things Sauron isn't:
-Immune to fear
The Silmarillion, Akallabeth
For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru[Iluvatar] laid upon sea and land.
-Capable of defeating an army and it's heroic leaders
But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

This is a work in progress but I hope that it'll soon be complete enough to satisfy everyone. Help is of course appreciated as the books are huge!
Could anyone help me find page numbers for these? My copy lacks them.

[GoC]

Gandalf:

Grey:
Aura of menace:
Lord of the Rings, Book 1, chapter 16, A Journey in the Dark
In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow; he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill.
Lord of the Rings, Book 1, chapter 1, A Long Expected Party
He[Gandalf] took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room.

Unnatural flame:
Lord of the Rings, Book 1, chapter 16, A Journey in the Dark
High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.
“Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!” he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree top to tree top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light.
He gathered the huge pinecones from the branches of his tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly.
...
Wolves are afraid of fire at all times, but this was a most horrible and uncanny fire. If a spark got in their coats it stuck and burned into them, and unless they rolled over quick they were soon all in flames.
Note: This is a fire-based power and could stem from his possession of Narya, the Ring of Fire.

-Brilliant flash of light:
[citation needed but kills several of the orcs it's aimed at]
Note:This is the most destructive bit of "combat magic" (iow: magic with a low enough casting time to be used in combat) ever used in the middle earth universe.

White only:
-Command spell:
Lord of the Rings, Book 2, chapter 5, The White Rider
“And you, Master Dwarf, pray take your hand from your axe haft, till I am up! You will not need such arguments.” Gimli started and then stood still as stone, staring, while the old man sprang up the rough steps as nimbly as a goat.
...
Immediately, as if a spell had been removed, the others relaxed and stirred. Gimli’s hand went at once to his axe haft. Aragorn drew his sword. Legolas picked up his bow.
Note:May be the same as the disarm spell.

-Disarming spell:
Lord of the Rings, Book 2, chapter 5, The White Rider
He[Gandalf] lifted up his staff, and Gimli’s axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground.The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire.[it may be that Aragon resisted the spell or that Gandalf only cast it at Gimli]

-Immune to certain weapons:
Lord of the Rings, Book 2, chapter 5, The White Rider
[Gandalf said] "No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."
Note:Is probably immune to most non-magical weapons

-Sundering spell
"You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.”
He[Gandalf] raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. “Saruman, your staff is broken” There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman’s hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf’s feet.
Note: Could be related to his casting out of Saruman, in which case it wouldn't work on anyone else.

Things Gandalf can't do:
Fly:
[citation needed]
Kill a Warg army:
[citation needed]
Be immune to fear:
The Hobbit, chapter 6, Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire
Now you can understand why Gandalf, listening to their growling and yelping, began to be dreadfully afraid, wizard though he was, and to feel that they were in a very bad place, and had not yet escaped at all.
Note: This passage is from The Hobbit and may not be fully canon.
Cast powerful spells rapidly:
At the battle against the wolves he cast one spell in the time it took Legolas to empty his quiver of arrows despite having plenty of burning brands to use.

The One Ring
Things the ring can do:
-Augment the natural power of the wearer
[citation needed]
-The ring cannot be destroyed willingly
Tolkien's Letters, #246
I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist...
Note: Destroy willingly does not include: aiding someone trying to destroy the ring, sending someone to destroy the ring or taking someone whom you think is going to destroy the ring to Mount Doom.
-Stretches the lives of the person using it
[citation needed]
-Grants the user control over all the other rings of power
[citation needed]

I'm too lazy to add the citations right now. I'll do it later.:smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

Is this even nessary? We already have a "Concerning vs. Sauron thread." Can't we just let Sauron threads die please and move on
from
EE

[GoC]

Is this even nessary? We already have a "Concerning vs. Sauron thread." Can't we just let Sauron threads die please and move on
from
EE

Indeed we do and it contained statements as inacurate as:
"Sauron had a continent dropped on him by the valar and survived so a nuke isn't going to hurt him."

Note: There are two errors in that statement.
The Valar didn't drop the continent, Eru did.
It doesn't follow that just because he managed to reform after being destroyed by falling continents a nuke wouldn't also destroy his body.

[Lizardfolk Lich]

I personally believe that a nuke is at least 2 falling continents:smallamused:

Anyway, this seems like a good idea and a good resource for all the people who no nothing about LOTR.

[EvilElitest]

Indeed we do and it contained statements as inacurate as:
"Sauron had a continent dropped on him by the valar and survived so a nuke isn't going to hurt him."

Note: There are two errors in that statement.
The Valar didn't drop the continent, Eru did.
It doesn't follow that just because he managed to reform after being destroyed doesn't mean a nuke wouldn't also destroy his body.

1. Technically Sauron has a continent crumble underneath him and was crushed under the earth's titanic plates. However a nuke would most likely destroy him
2. I still don't see the point of this thread? I mean aren't vs. Sauron threads kinda dead in terms of enjoyment
from
EE

[GoC]

2. I still don't see the point of this thread? I mean aren't vs. Sauron threads kinda dead in terms of enjoyment
from
EE
They are indeed. So instead of ten, poorly organized, 20-60 page threads clogging up the boards we can have just one. Certainly seems like an improvement to me.

[Lizardfolk Lich]

Not all of them are dead of enjoyment, it really helps if you pick someone who nobody has heard of to fight Sauron. That's why I chose Randall Flagg.

[GoC]

I personally believe that a nuke is at least 2 falling continents:smallamused:

Anyway, this seems like a good idea and a good resource for all the people who no nothing about LOTR.

Can you help me find citations, abilities and examples to illustrate them?
I wanted three seperate posts but EE posted too soon.
One for Sauron, one for supporting characters (Valar, Witch King ect.) and one for theories regarding Sauron.

[EvilElitest]

On second thought, i love Tolkien, so i forgive you GoC and will partake for now


A list of things Sauron has accomplished:
-Ignored one or more lightning bolts fired from the clouds sent by the sky Valar Manwe.
The Silmarillion, Akallabeth
But all this was now changed; for the sky itself was darkened, and there were storms of rain and hail in those days, and violent winds; and ever and anon a great ship of the Númenórëans would founder and return not to haven, though such a grief had not till then befallen them since the rising of the Star. And out of the west there would come at times a great cloud in the evening, shaped as it were an eagle, with pinions spread to the north and the south; and slowly it would loom up, blotting out the sunset, and then uttermost night would fall upon Númenor. And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud.
Then men grew afraid. “Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!” they cried. “The Eagles of Manwë are come upon Númenor!” And they fell upon their faces.
Then some few would repent for a season, but others hardened their hearts, and they shook their fists at heaven, saying: “The Lords of the West have plotted against us. They strike first. The next blow shall be ours!” These words the King himself spoke, but they were devised by Sauron.
Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would. When therefore the last portent came they heeded it little. For the land shook under them, and a groaning as of thunder underground was mingled with the roaring of the sea, and smoke issued from the peak of the Meneltarma. But all the more did Ar-Pharazôn press on with his armament.

Worth noting that the attack cease after this, and thus he won that battle of wills


-Shapeshift into: A huge were-wolf (the largest in history), a vampire (stats unkown), a beautiful human form
Were-wolf:The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 19, Of Beren and Luthien
Now Sauron knew well, as did all in that land, the fate that was decreed for the hound of Valinor, and it came into his thought that he himself would accomplish it. Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge.
Vampire:The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 19, Of Beren and Luthien
Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Tar-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror.

Worth noting
1. He also turns into a giant bat at the end of hte war of the wrath
2. No limits of his shape shifting are established. Shouldn't we look at other shapeshifters
3. doesn't he also turn into some other things while attempting to escape from Huan?


Beautiful form:
[citation needed]
In this form he was able to fool the entire Elven nation for years, and take over Numenor in three years (after being taken back as a prisoner)


-Sang the song with the other Maia and Valar that Iluvatar used to create the earth.
The Silmarillion, Ainulindale
Then Ilúvatar said to them: “Of the them e that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.”
...
But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: “Behold your Music!” And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew.
...
Iluvatar said, “I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it." And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.

Normally in vs. threads his powers over creation aren't taken into account, as he is at his greatest power but the world doesn't exist yet


-Charismatic enough to convince most of the men of Numenor to worship Morgoth
[choice citations needed]
Also to trick the elves and dominate the other human nations


-Corruption
[citation needed]
"Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them their" Book 1 p. 68
It is worth noting Sauron is at one of his weakest states here


[citations related to it's strength needed]
He does take on six super warriors

-
Immune to heat
[citation needed]

Hangs out in a volcano, burns Gil-ad up with a touch


-Fear aura
[citation needed]
Worth noting that the WK's fear aura was enough to keep an entire city that he was attacking from even defending themselves until Gandalf inspired them



-Ressurection from the dead
The Silmarillion, Akallabeth
But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.
So basically, in most vs. threads, you need to kill him twice, once in his more powerful true form, and then in his self created form, before destroying the ring becomes an option

-
Has a sense of humour
And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss.

the Mouth of Sauron is kinda funny as well


Things Sauron can't do:
-Can be afraid
The Silmarillion, Akallabeth
For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru[Iluvatar] laid upon sea and land.
your grammar is a little off, you should say "Things Sauron can't do" and put "Immune to fear" But he has a very good reason to be afraid it is worth noting as the Valar out rank him in terms of strength if they wished to go all out (but would destroy most of the world



-Can't defeat an army and it's heroic leaders
But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.
However it was a damn hard fight against the Greatest Human and Elven nations at the time

I'll cover his massive army later
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

"Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them their" Book 1 p. 68


Isn't the drawing of all wicked things unto someone the act of bring them to serve you and not actually corrupting them? (Nitpick)

[EvilElitest]

"Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them their" Book 1 p. 68


Isn't the drawing of all wicked things unto someone the act of bring them to serve you and not actually corrupting them? (Nitpick)

1. well some of them aren't willingly being drawn so that is at least domination
2. Ok, fine how about the ring? The ring is a manifestation of Sauron's powers, so its corruption powers must be similar to Sauron's own
3. Saurman's corruption? Denethor? The humans in the east or south
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

Both had access to a Palantir, so it's not a good argument.

Um, dude they Palantir is used as a way to come into contact with Sauron, it is like a strange telephone. The reason they were corrupted was because they came into contact with his will. Aragorn was the rightful owner of the Stones and even he had trouble
from
EE

[GoC]

Worth noting
1. He also turns into a giant bat at the end of hte war of the wrath
I've searched that entire chapter and sauron isn't even mentioned. Where else could this be?


3. doesn't he also turn into some other things while attempting to escape from Huan?
Afraid not.


Hangs out in a volcano, burns Gil-ad up with a touch
I need a chapter (or at least a time) otherwise I can't find a quote.


Worth noting that the WK's fear aura was enough to keep an entire city that he was attacking from even defending themselves until Gandalf inspired them
I'll wait until I've got a quote of his aura in action.

By citations I mean a chapter number so I can search through and find a quote.

Obrysii: Don't worry. Only things that can be backed up will be included.

[EvilElitest]

Through the palantir!

If they hadn't had access to the Seeing Stones, they would not have been so easily corrupted.

They would also have been corrupted if they had met him personally, but as that was impossible at the time, the Seeing Stones only allowed access to Sauron, it didn't make their corruption anything less
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

Right. You need contact with Sauron to be corrupted.

However, his existence alone does not cause corruption.

Um, i never claimed that. Sauron can use his will to create corruption, and can channel to good people via the seeing stone, and can dominate evil ones via his own powers. His simply being their however, might blow your mind, as even friendly contact with Pippin (who Sauron didn't think was a foe but a prisoner being showed to him by Saurman and had a tough will) almost drove him mad, but that is another story
from
EE

[GoC]

Now that's cleared up can you guys delete your posts to keep this thread tidy?

[EvilElitest]

Now that's cleared up can you guys delete your posts to keep this thread tidy?

couldn't you put the other ones into spoilers?
from
EE

[Obrysii]

Now that's cleared up can you guys delete your posts to keep this thread tidy?

Yes, I will.

[Mr. Scaly]

1. well some of them aren't willingly being drawn so that is at least domination
2. Ok, fine how about the ring? The ring is a manifestation of Sauron's powers, so its corruption powers must be similar to Sauron's own
3. Saurman's corruption? Denethor? The humans in the east or south
from
EE

I wasn't intending to start a whole other debate, but...

1) Fair enough.
2) The Ring may have Sauron's cruelty, malice et all but it's not him, technically.
3) Saruman was a jerk by nature. Denethor was old, paranoid and self-obsessed. Also a jerk. The Easterlings were violent by inclination and didn't need any corrupting (jerks), and the Haradrim teamed up with Sauron to stick it to Gondor. And were jerks.

And...yeah, that's all I'm saying on that. Sorry GoC for hijacking your thread. :smallsmile:

[GoC]

couldn't you put the other ones into spoilers?
from
EE

Not sure what you mean...

I couldn't find this quote anywhere near page 68 nor in the entire council of elrond chapter. Thoughts?

"Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them their" Book 1 p. 68

[EvilElitest]

I wasn't intending to start a whole other debate, but...

1) Fair enough.
2) The Ring may have Sauron's cruelty, malice et all but it's not him, technically.
3) Saruman was a jerk by nature. Denethor was old, paranoid and self-obsessed. Also a jerk. The Easterlings were violent by inclination and didn't need any corrupting (jerks), and the Haradrim teamed up with Sauron to stick it to Gondor. And were jerks.

And...yeah, that's all I'm saying on that. Sorry GoC for hijacking your thread. :smallsmile:

1. Thank you
2. No, the Ring is made up by Sauron's spirt, don't take the movie for granted (though "will to dominate all life is worth noting")
3. Saurman wasn't always a jerk, he was the most justice loving at first, Denethor wasn't like that in the book, he was extremely strong willed and the evil men weren't always like that, they still needed to be corrupted

And GOC, it is p. 68 book 1, Shadows of the past
from
EE

[dehro]

2. I still don't see the point of this thread? I mean aren't vs. Sauron threads kinda dead in terms of enjoyment
from
EE

just because you (and I) have already participated in one uber-detailed topic on sauron's powers and are by now annoyed by the subject (though it seems that your interest has been caugh anew), doesn't mean others should not have the chance to have a go at it.
also, it can hardly be said that the other topic has resolved all those issues on which scores of tolkienites have been debating for decades

[EvilElitest]

just because you (and I) have already participated in one uber-detailed topic on sauron's powers and are by now annoyed by the subject (though it seems that your interest has been caugh anew), doesn't mean others should not have the chance to have a go at it.
also, it can hardly be said that the other topic has resolved all those issues on which scores of tolkienites have been debating for decades

I already conceded that point
from
EE

[dehro]

owww... I've missed that...

[GoC]

I'm going to be without internet for a few days but post away and I'll update everything when I get back.

Doesn't anyone else have a copy of the books?

[Rowanomicon]

I wasn't intending to start a whole other debate, but...

1) Fair enough.
2) The Ring may have Sauron's cruelty, malice et all but it's not him, technically.
3) Saruman was a jerk by nature. Denethor was old, paranoid and self-obsessed. Also a jerk. The Easterlings were violent by inclination and didn't need any corrupting (jerks), and the Haradrim teamed up with Sauron to stick it to Gondor. And were jerks.

And...yeah, that's all I'm saying on that. Sorry GoC for hijacking your thread. :smallsmile:

"They are one, The Ring and The Dark Lord" is, I believe, a quote (or close) of Gandalf. Sorry I don't have my books so no page number.

If you wish to claim that those corrupted and manipulated by Sauron were already on the path to evil then it behooves you to provide evidence. Saruman as proportedly wise and just, but had certainly changed by the time we saw him. It was studying Ringlore and using the Palantir that got him. Even knowing of The Ring puts you a under it´s power somewhat. The longer you think on it the mor eobsessed you become. Saruman´s desire for The Ring was probably only behind Sauron and Gollum's. Denethor had ruled Gondor well in previous years, but came to despair, paranoia, greed, and madness when using the seeing stone and being manipulated and corrupted by Sauron through it.

[Rutee]

If you wish to claim that those corrupted and manipulated by Sauron were already on the path to evil then it behooves you to provide evidence. Saruman as proportedly wise and just, but had certainly changed by the time we saw him. It was studying Ringlore and using the Palantir that got him. Even knowing of The Ring puts you a under it´s power somewhat. The longer you think on it the mor eobsessed you become. Saruman´s desire for The Ring was probably only behind Sauron and Gollum's. Denethor had ruled Gondor well in previous years, but came to despair, paranoia, greed, and madness when using the seeing stone and being manipulated and corrupted by Sauron through it.

The burden of proof lies on you for this claim, if only to back it up with quotes. Was it the Ring that created that influence, or was it simply powerlust?

[EvilElitest]

The burden of proof lies on you for this claim, if only to back it up with quotes. Was it the Ring that created that influence, or was it simply powerlust?

In Boromir's case it was the ring i know that, and a few people who weren't even aware of the ring still desired it. Gollum anyone?
from
EE

[GoC]

Internet death has been postponed... Wierd.


In Boromir's case it was the ring i know that, and a few people who weren't even aware of the ring still desired it. Gollum anyone?
from
EE
Boromir wanted to defend Minus Tirith. He didn't believe the council when they told him he'd become evil if he used it in such a way. The ring does corrupt but the person's desires also play a big part in it. Boromir was a highly principled individual and would normaly put loyalty to his companions above the safety of his city. But when pushed to the extreme by the circustances and given the tantalizing prospect of being able to save his people he snapped.
Notably most other people didn't show any uncontrolable desire to possess it.
The 13 dwarves, Frodo (until he actualy started walking around with it), the other three hobbits, the council of the wise, Galandriel, Aragon, Gimli and Legolas. Boromir was the exception rather then the rule.

Note: The above is just a theory made by the CEO and is in no way endorsed by The Sauron Compedium organization.

[EvilElitest]

Internet death has been postponed... Wierd.


Boromir wanted to defend Minus Tirith. He didn't believe the council when they told him he'd become evil if he used it in such a way. The ring does corrupt but the person's desires also play a big part in it. Boromir was a highly principled individual and would normaly put loyalty to his companions above the safety of his city. But when pushed to the extreme by the circustances and given the tantalizing prospect of being able to save his people he snapped.
Notably most other people didn't show any uncontrolable desire to possess it.
The 13 dwarves, Frodo (until he actualy started walking around with it), the other three hobbits, the council of the wise, Galandriel, Aragon, Gimli and Legolas. Boromir was the exception rather then the rule.

Note: The above is just a theory made by the CEO and is in no way endorsed by The Sauron Compedium organization.

1. But the temptation for the ring was what possese Borimir through
2. During the hobbit the ring wasn't doing the whole corruption thing i think because Sauron wasn't desperately searching for it and it was staying quite. Even then it effected Bilbo
3. Um it did tempt all of those people, they just resisted it
4. Wait we are an organization now? Sweet, i call spokesmen
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

Tolkien himself said "no one" can willingly harm The Ring. This means that if an action will harm The Ring (or if you think it will) and you know that then you cannot bring yourself to do it.

This shows that one does not need to come into contact with The Ring, but simply know of it. The Ring builds upon a person's power lust and enhances it to bend them to it's will (ie make them do what it wants, not direct mind control). Gandalf, the wisest of the Maiar, considered Saruman to be very wise and worthy of seeking counsil from. Wise people are not generally power hungry and yet Saruman, when studying Ringlore was drawn to use the Palantir and corrupted by Sauron.

Why do people insist on arguing against the Word of God? Yes, I'm sure you know Middle Earth better than Tolkien did. Really?

Also the burden of proving things no longer falls on my shoulders after I've proven them to you in multiple threads. Now the burden of paying attention falls on your shoulders. The debate tactic of "prove it prove it prove it proveitproveitproveitproveit!" doesn't work so well when everyhting from past debates is still written down. Almost everything has already been proven. It behooves you to admit when you are wrong or at least cease to demand proof of things that have already been proven to death with cannon and Word of God (whew, it was hard not to put that in caps). Seriously, I'm starting to get annoyed, can you tell?

GoC, please respond to me in the Randall Flagg thread, thanks.

[EvilElitest]

I second everything Rowan says, as he is god
from
EE

[Rutee]

Why do people insist on arguing against the Word of God?
Almost as ironic as Warlock Tears, considerring you contested Tolkien's statement that the WK wasn't that powerful.

Have you considerred that the statement doesn't carry over to other universes? That is, while it's impossible to contest that a ME character could do it, characters not from that setting could?

Not as a matter of course, of course..

[EvilElitest]

Almost as ironic as Warlock Tears, considerring you contested Tolkien's statement that the WK wasn't that powerful.

Have you considerred that the statement doesn't carry over to other universes? That is, while it's impossible to contest that a ME character could do it, characters not from that setting could?

Not as a matter of course, of course..

1. The WK power statement was power in comparison to other beings in his world, however in direct power the WK isn't that great. He just has a really annoying shield
2. the beings in the other setting should not share any traits with the beings in ME. Cthulu could resist the call of the ring for example but Arthas could not
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

Rutee, using your broken logic everyhting that has ever been called indestructable could easily br broken by things form another word.

Frostmourne? Indestructable in WC, but hit is with a small rock from Earthsea and it shatters.

The Sword in the Stone. It is part of the myth that it cannot be drawn from the stone by anyone except the true king, but you say that any super strong character from a different universe could pull it out. Now you're not just insulting Tolkien's work and fans, your straight up trying to ruin fiction.

Also WK is not that powerful fi you compare him to Sauron and the Valar. WK is not one of the most powerful characters of that setting. He is roughly as powerful as Gandalf (a nerfed Maia) which is way more than it takes to utterly destroy the average man without question, but he cannot meaningfully contribute to divine warfare (though he probably would not be utterly useless). At any rate "not very powerful" is subjective where as "no one" is absolute.

Please.

EDIT: Rutee, it might help your personal image if you had the good grace to say "OK, you're right, but what about the time you said..." as opposed to "you started it"

[Rutee]

Rutee, using your broken logic everyhting that has ever been called indestructable could easily br broken by things form another word.
Provided a reason to think so? In general, yeah. There's one exception I can think of where I will draw an unequivocal line, but that's literally it. Someone broke Mjolnir in the Marvel Universe, f'rex. Can't recall who, offhand, but I'd give some actual thought to /that/ guy breaking an otherwise indestructible item. Ditto anyone who breaks Adamantium in Marvel. I would, however, need a /reason/ to believe this.

I mean, take the universe-breaking powers that exist in various fiction. Do I think Frostmourne will be broken by those? Uh, duh. Why should I believe Frostmourne is more indestructible then a universe.


The Sword in the Stone. It is part of the myth that it cannot be drawn from the stone by anyone except the true king, but you say that any super strong character from a different universe could pull it out. Now you're not just insulting Tolkien's work and fans, your straight up trying to ruin fiction.
Hm, the Sword and the Stone being pulled by someone besides Arthur? I'm not sure if mundane strength would do it. It might be possible to subvert the magic though.

And ruin fiction? VeisuItaThyjys put this best; I don't see any conceivable way for me to damage the narrative credibility of these settings in any better way then to warp their laws of reality and cosmology to create a Vs. Thread.


Also WK is not that powerful fi you compare him to Sauron and the Valar. WK is not one of the most powerful characters of that setting. He is roughly as powerful as Gandalf (a nerfed Maia) which is way more than it takes to utterly destroy the average man without question, but he cannot meaningfully contribute to divine warfare (though he probably would not be utterly useless). At any rate "not very powerful" is subjective where as "no one" is absolute.
I just found the irony overwhelmingly delicious, given that you contest the word of God yet complain when others do so. I have no doubts that the WK is far and away above an average human, but this doesn't really mean he's powerful enough to participate meaningfully against everything short of divine warfare.


EDIT: Rutee, it might help your personal image if you had the good grace to say "OK, you're right, but what about the time you said..." as opposed to "you started it"
The extent of my saying "You started it" was when somebody, can't recall who, pointed out that Sauron Fans weren't responsible for the creation of the huge number of Sauron vs. threads. When in fact they are chiefly responsible.

[Rowanomicon]

I find it really annoying that you continue to insist upon my hypocracy when I, in fact, have not argued against the word of god, but you still will not admit that you were wrong when you did.

I merely pointed out that "not very powerful" is a completely subjective and, while WK is not terribly powerful when compared to divine being, he could be put in from of a squadren of the best human melee fighters and destroy them almsot effortlessly. Against certain foes he is extremely effective. Tolkien never says otherwise. He says WK's not very powerful and that is true when you look at the beings that are "very powerful." Obviously Tolkien knew his own work and knew who was more powerful than whom. Saying that WK is, over all, not "very powerful" doe snot mean that the avergae warrior (or even army in some cases) could even stand up to him.

The orcs under his direct comand are describes as being utterly subservient to his will. (WG said it, I can't provide a quote) and he took out the two greatest fighters of Rohan without effort. He's clearly no pushover despite being "not very powerful."

Whe that was brought up it was suppsoed to be used as a counter to posts about WK's effectiveness in a Vs thread. However, being completely subjective and reletive does nto counter anyth specifically unless anyone was saying that WK could solo Sauron, Rasitlin, LK, and Q together.

[EvilElitest]

I just found the irony overwhelmingly delicious, given that you contest the word of God yet complain when others do so. I have no doubts that the WK is far and away above an average human, but this doesn't really mean he's powerful enough to participate meaningfully against everything short of divine warfare.

As i said your misunderstanding the quote, the WK isn't that great in raw power he does have a nasty spell protecting him however.



The extent of my saying "You started it" was when somebody, can't recall who, pointed out that Sauron Fans weren't responsible for the creation of the huge number of Sauron vs. threads. When in fact they are chiefly responsible.

Um, rutee, started what? How many sauorn threads has Rowan started? Executor started some and that seems to be about it. I haven't started any, WG hasn't Rowan did the LK vs. the WK does that count?

from
EE

[Rutee]

I find it really annoying that you continue to insist upon my hypocracy when I, in fact, have not argued against the word of god, but you still will not admit that you were wrong when you did.
I'm not arguing word of god; Word of God doesn't account for other settings. You contradicted Word of God by saying the WK /did/ have great physical power; This, as a comparison, would be true when compared to the Harry-Potter-verse, or Real Life, but not within its own setting, compared to its own enemies. THAT is a true contradiction of the Word of God. I'm pointing out that the Word of God literally never accounted for situations or characters from other settings, and thus, is more suspect there.


I merely pointed out that "not very powerful" is a completely subjective and, while WK is not terribly powerful when compared to divine being, he could be put in from of a squadren of the best human melee fighters and destroy them almsot effortlessly. Against certain foes he is extremely effective. Tolkien never says otherwise. He says WK's not very powerful and that is true when you look at the beings that are "very powerful." Obviously Tolkien knew his own work and knew who was more powerful than whom. Saying that WK is, over all, not "very powerful" doe snot mean that the avergae warrior (or even army in some cases) could even stand up to him.
As I said, compared to his own setting, he's not that hot; I will not question that he can drop a great many peons, but it was either you or perhaps EE who was stating that he was an excellent combatant in his own right, just as worthwhile as some of the greatest of LotR's heroes.


The orcs under his direct comand are describes as being utterly subservient to his will. (WG said it, I can't provide a quote) and he took out the two greatest fighters of Rohan without effort. He's clearly no pushover despite being "not very powerful."
So this handwaves him into being a warrior as good as someone with greater significant deeds who doesn't have the Word of God saying "He's really not that great"?


Whe that was brought up it was suppsoed to be used as a counter to posts about WK's effectiveness in a Vs thread. However, being completely subjective and reletive does nto counter anyth specifically unless anyone was saying that WK could solo Sauron, Rasitlin, LK, and Q together.
Actually, if he's not that great compared to Sauron or some other benchmark, and you have reason to believe that what he's being compared to is superior to that benchmark, that tends to mean something.

[Rowanomicon]

Tolkien says "no one" that is absolute. The only way I would consider someone form another universe capable of hurting The Ring would be if they do not have what we generally call a will or some other special circumstance. One such example was a robot programmed to go around destroying Rings. Now this would generally not be a real threat because it would probably never get to The One Ring itself, but whatever. Also one's ability to program said robot comes into question if the know about The Ring and thus would be willingly trying to bring harm to it by creating said robot.

You cannot simply say that everyone form other universes ar eimmune though. That is rediculous. That's like saying that magic form one universe never effects people form another. In specific cases this may be true, but it's not a general truth of cross universe discussions. For an exception to be made agaisnt an absolute statement made by the author there needs to be truely exceptional circumstances. You have not provided any examples. Also the possible existence of such circumstances does not discount The Rings powers as a whole. Just because you think Frostmourne can be destroyed universe destroying powers does not mean that Frostmourne can be destroyed through most normal means from other universes.

Again, power is subjective. Compared to Eowyn WK was powerful because he cast her aside effortlessly and could have ended her life easily, but decided to threaten her with something greater, or worse, (a dinner date with Sauron).

Saying that WK is better than some doe snot contradict Tolkien saying that he's not very powerful as "not very powerful" doe snot mean bottom of the heap. It simply means not the top, or even the top 10. All the Valar and Maiar are more powerful than him. Other than that, he's doing pretty good in the Third Age. Galadriel, Elrond, reincarnated Gil-Galad are all in the same league as him, probably Aragorn too, especially sinc ehe has destiny magic going for him, but he's pretty near the top in the Third Age as far a mortals and once'mortals are concered.

I am not going against word of god.

Also your point about people who don't have word of god saying they're "not that great" is flat out rediculous. Random orc peon 17 (from any orc inclusive universe) doesn't have word of god saying he's "not that great" so clearly he's better than WK.

Are you kidding me?

P.S. Sorry about typos I'm using a terrible keyboard and computer. Such is Central America.

[EvilElitest]

Out of interest Rowan, are you from Central american or just on vacation there?
from
EE

[Rutee]

Sigh. Intersetting (And occasionally intra-setting) absolutes are generally meaningless, or else we get into the most classic example; A sword that cleaves everything that attempts to stop it, and a shield that is indestructible. That's all the last I have to say on that; You're clearly choosing to not grasp why these statements are meaningless for whatever reason, just as you failed to address my examples: Should I believe that Frostmourne will not be broken when confronted with a power that can destroy all existence?

[EvilElitest]

Sigh. Intersetting (And occasionally intra-setting) absolutes are generally meaningless, or else we get into the most classic example; A sword that cleaves everything that attempts to stop it, and a shield that is indestructible. That's all the last I have to say on that; You're clearly choosing to not grasp why these statements are meaningless for whatever reason, just as you failed to address my examples: Should I believe that Frostmourne will not be broken when confronted with a power that can destroy all existence?

Normally you look into more details on the world in that case or resort to compromise

Rowan isn't being stubborn, he is being logical and defending himself from an accusation
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

OK so Rutee is officially unconvicable of anything, even when directly contradicted by Word of God. Yes, exceptional circumstances (such as unstoppable force an dimovable objects) occur, but that doesn't mean we should ignore rules all together. Just because there may be such a shield in some storry does not mean that such a sword fails to break anything that tries stop it.

Any yeah, go ahead and tell me I can't grasp things because I'm a fanboy of terrible literature...

EE, just vacation.

[EvilElitest]

OK so Rutee is officially unconvicable of anything, even when directly contradicted by Word of God. Yes, exceptional circumstances (such as unstoppable force an dimovable objects) occur, but that doesn't mean we should ignore rules all together. Just because there may be such a shield in some storry does not mean that such a sword fails to break anything that tries stop it.

Any yeah, go ahead and tell me I can't grasp things because I'm a fanboy of terrible literature...

EE, just vacation.

1. I've found that to be the case sadly it gets on the nerves after a while
2. Of course your a fanboy, you are also a hypocrite, a flamer, a fool, a loser, a cheater, and a liar. Oh and Tolkien stuff is < to fluff of any other world. Don't you know anything Rowan
3. Cool, sadly i've never been on mainland Central america
from
EE

[Rutee]

OK so Rutee is officially unconvicable of anything, even when directly contradicted by Word of God. Yes, exceptional circumstances (such as unstoppable force an dimovable objects) occur, but that doesn't mean we should ignore rules all together. Just because there may be such a shield in some storry does not mean that such a sword fails to break anything that tries stop it
No, I was taking absolutes to their most grinding test possible; A contradiction of absolutes. You're also forgetting that y'all convinced me that Sauron could beat Voldemort, so "Utterly unconvincable" is a silly attempt to justify a lack of response.

I will ask again: Should I support what is absolute within one setting when it is contradicted by an absolute (or somethign that beat an 'absolute') from another setting? If Ideon were teleported into Warcraft and broke the universe with it's Wave Motion Gun, would Frostmourne Survive? I'm using absolutes you couldn't possibly care less about for a reason. When the Immovable Object meets the Irresistible Force, what happens, in your mind?

[EvilElitest]

No, I was taking absolutes to their most grinding test possible; A contradiction of absolutes. You're also forgetting that y'all convinced me that Sauron could beat Voldemort, so "Utterly unconvincable" is a silly attempt to justify a lack of response.

I will ask again: Should I support what is absolute within one setting when it is contradicted by an absolute (or somethign that beat an 'absolute') from another setting? If Ideon were teleported into Warcraft and broke the universe with it's Wave Motion Gun, would Frostmourne Survive?

Well magical weapons can be destoryed in Warcraft so yeah........can the Wave Motion gun effect everything?
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

GoC will be evry sad when he find that his clean Sauron compendium has become a place for me to simply post:

Central Americal Rocks Ass! Or was it "rules ass"? The thing Tordek said in PHB PSAs. Anyway, it's fun.

[Rutee]

Well magical weapons can be destoryed in Warcraft so yeah........can the Wave Motion gun effect everything?
from
EE
I'm being quite literal when I say the Ideon Wave Motion Gun can end the Universe, as that's the ending. But Frostmourne is Indestructible. I figure you'll say "Ideon's Gun wins", and that's a perfectly valid reasoning. It's mine too, after all, I'm not gonig to say it's illogical. I'm asking Rowan what happens to him, because he's saying an Absolute is an Absolute; Hence, I'm demonstrating a case of inter-setting absolutes clashing.

[EvilElitest]

I'm being quite literal when I say the Ideon Wave Motion Gun can end the Universe, as that's the ending. But Frostmourne is Indestructible. I figure you'll say "Ideon's Gun wins", and that's a perfectly valid reasoning. It's mine too, after all, I'm not gonig to say it's illogical. I'm asking Rowan what happens to him, because he's saying an Absolute is an Absolute; Hence, I'm demonstrating a case of inter-setting absolutes clashing.

However some of the examples he responded to aren't in fact absolutes. No being can destroy the ring for example, well a being who could destroy the ring must not have any of the qualities taht prevent the people of ME from destroying the ring. So Cthulu would have no problem
from
EE

[Rutee]

That does nothing to address my central point; An absolute is, at best, absolute within its own universe. I mean, these universes are going to be full of unstated, taken for granted Absolutes. For instance, here's one that I'm sure is true in LotR, and while it's not stated as such by Tolkien, I'm sure if you asked, he would say: "There are no Giant Robots in Middle Earth, and there never will be." Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Tolkien did claim this as an absolute. Then we pit ME against.. I don't know, Xenogears or something that /does/ have Giant Robots in a versus thread. If you were to ask the creators of this work "Are there Giant Robots in this universe?", they would, assuming they didn't laugh, answer "Yes." Another absolute (Albeit a simple one, on par with True/False). Would this mean we disintegrate all Giant Robots in a vs. thread against Middle Earth? "What do we do when Absolutes clash?" is the question that Rowan has refused to address.. though it's reasonable to think he's ignoring me, which'd almost definitely cause me to have to take him for some sort of incurable Sauron fanboy, given that he refuses to even acknowledge how absolutes can possibly clash..

[EvilElitest]

That does nothing to address my central point; An absolute is, at best, absolute within its own universe. I mean, these universes are going to be full of unstated, taken for granted Absolutes. For instance, here's one that I'm sure is true in LotR, and while it's not stated as such by Tolkien, I'm sure if you asked, he would say: "There are no Giant Robots in Middle Earth, and there never will be." Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Tolkien did claim this as an absolute. Then we pit ME against.. I don't know, Xenogears or something that /does/ have Giant Robots in a versus thread. If you were to ask the creators of this work "Are there Giant Robots in this universe?", they would, assuming they didn't laugh, answer "Yes." Another absolute (Albeit a simple one, on par with True/False). Would this mean we disintegrate all Giant Robots in a vs. thread against Middle Earth? "What do we do when Absolutes clash?" is the question that Rowan has refused to address.

We would look at the specific giant robots in question If the robots have the
human traits that make you exposed to the ring then yes they would be effected. However if not, then no. Am i understanding the question here?
from
EE

[Rutee]

No, you are completely misunderstanding the question. You believe I'm discussing the absolute "No one would harm the Ring". Let us try, instead, a related example, since you are trying to relate things to this absolute. Let's say we have a character who possesses "Immunity to all forms of mental manipulation", which the compulsion to not harm the Ring definitely qualifies as. And let's say this character was made by Justin Achili, since that's a name on my mind. Justin Achili says that his character isn't subject to any form of mental manipulation. JRR Tolkien says that his ring always creates a compulsion to not harm it. Who wins, and why?

[Rowanomicon]

I didn't see one of your post Rutee, but your insults are totally warrented (ug!). I'd ask that you grow up a little, but only time can do that, if anything.

What happens when absolutes clash?

Frostmourne and a gun that destroys planets? I'd say Frostmourne survives. However this depends on the nature of the gun and I am unfamiliar with the one you speak of.

Frostmourne against a Q thinking it from existence? Frostmourne is gone as it was not destroyed, but has was removed form existance. I think Frostmourna cannot be broken, that is it's nature. It can, however, be un-exist'd.

Now, against a gun that is stated to destroy everything, then we have a problem. Or with WK where it says that all blades perish when they strike him. That was, I recall and you may too, a big issue in the Sauron vs LK and WK vs LK threads. I still have not reached a conclusion that is totally uncounterable. In the WK v LK thread I said that I thought the blade would remain intact, bu not hurt WK. WG said he thought the blade might remain intact while the magic or the sword "perished."

What do you think?

EDIT: Characters not subject to mental manipulation at all are not subject to the mental compulsion to not harm The Ring. Obviously. This does not protect anyone else though.

"does not" almost always comes up as "doe snot" when I type on this keyboard, haha.

[EvilElitest]

No, you are completely misunderstanding the question. You believe I'm discussing the absolute "No one would harm the Ring". Let us try, instead, a related example, since you are trying to relate things to this absolute. Let's say we have a character who possesses "Immunity to all forms of mental manipulation", which the compulsion to not harm the Ring definitely qualifies as. And let's say this character was made by Justin Achili, since that's a name on my mind. Justin Achili says that his character isn't subject to any form of mental manipulation. JRR Tolkien says that his ring always creates a compulsion to not harm it. Who wins, and why?

well without any details i'd say that that the Justin Achili person is ok, but we'd need to know the details of the protection. However with only that information, we just use our knowlage of the one Ring to find a conclusion

from
EE

[Rutee]

Frostmourne against a Q thinking it from existence? Frostmourne is gone as it was not destroyed, but has was removed form existance. I think Frostmourna cannot be broken, that is it's nature. It can, however, be un-exist'd.
So to you, if a Q were to attempt to think it /destroyed/, the Q would fail? Because that would explain an awful lot on why this feels so futile.


Now, against a gun that is stated to destroy everything, then we have a problem. Or with WK where it says that all blades perish when they strike him. That was, I recall and you may too, a big issue in the Sauron vs LK and WK vs LK threads. I still have not reached a conclusion that is totally uncounterable. In the WK v LK thread I said that I thought the blade would remain intact, bu not hurt WK. WG said he thought the blade might remain intact while the magic or the sword "perished."
The gun destroys the entirety of the universe, in the ending, hence why I compared it to Frostmourne.


What do you think?
I generally disregard an absolute, in an inter-setting comparison. Even if it is Word of God. Tolkien wasn't thinking about Wolverine when he wrote Lord of the Rings, Yoshiyuki Tomino wasn't thinking about Sauron or The One Ring when he created ZZ Gundam, etc. Absolute becomes "Really darn powerful". The absolute /is/ liable to hold, until I'm given a reason to think otherwise. Like my above examples; An absolute or no, if you break Adamantium or Mjolnir in the Marvel-verse, f'rex,, I'm going to give you some serious consideration in breaking another 'indestructible' object. I will not give this consideration to someone else within the same setting unless they possess a contradicting absolute.

I end up trying to compare things against each other. For instance, what effect does X bring to the table, and do I have any reason to believe Y can withstand this? In the case of Ideon's Gun vs. Frostmourne, I'd rule in favor of Ideon; While Frostmourne is damn mighty, I have no reason to believe it was intended to contend against that level of power. Against the Witch King sunder-power, what we have to work with is the general power of the beings in question, and the general power of the objects the Witch King broke.


EDIT: Characters not subject to mental manipulation at all are not subject to the mental compulsion to not harm The Ring. Obviously. This does not protect anyone else though.
It isn't obvious though; You're assuming the defense renders the attack inapplicable. I would instead look at what they were 'used' to, and even if the influence /can/ overcome the defense, it wouldn't necessarily create an absolute effect, in all probability. For instance, Achili's character /can/ perhaps bring himself to harm Tolkien's ring, but it's difficult for him to do so, as a possibility. Without expending that extra effort, Achili's character can not; One Absolute may defeat the other, but it isn't easy. At least, in my mind.

[Rowanomicon]

Yes, flat out immunity to mind affecting effects protects you. Simple resitance probably wont, though may help you fight off other effects of The Ring to a certain extent. If the immunity is against psionics or psychic mutants or aliens then it probably wouldn't protect you as The Ring is magical.

As I said, with specific circumstances you look at the details.

However, the possible existence of circumstances does not discount The Ring's powers over all others.

Yeah, I had already stated my opinion, you just didn't understand it Rutee so thatnks for calling me a fanboy and trying to suggest that I was ignoring you because I had no good answer.

EDIT: Posted at the same time as you. A gun that destroys an entire universe seems to me to be on the level of removing existance so would probably win out over Frostmourne.

[EvilElitest]

Rutee, in all due respect, what makes Rowan a fanboy? he is arguing very vague point, one that personally i think need specific examples to work. That doesn't make him a fanboy any more than a person who thinks taht the third assassin from Macbeth his in fact Macbeth himself is a fanboy, they are critics. One of hte importance of debates is the discussion of absolutes and such theories
from
EE

[Rutee]

Yes, flat out immunity to mind affecting effects protects you. Simple resitance probably wont, though may help you fight off other effects of The Ring to a certain extent. If the immunity is against psionics or psychic mutants or aliens then it probably wouldn't protect you as The Ring is magical.
Probably won't? Fair enough, that's acknowledging that the absolute from one universe is overcomable.


EDIT: Posted at the same time as you. A gun that destroys an entire universe seems to me to be on the level of removing existance so would probably win out over Frostmourne.

What if a Q tried to destroy Frostmourne? 'cause, I'd say the Q wins, personally.

Maybe if Sargeras made Frostmourne.. nah, he wasn't an Abrahamic God.. hm...

[Rowanomicon]

If Q said "Frostmourne is broken" well, yeah I'd give it to Q because he's not actually physically breaking Frostmourne; he's simply altering reality so that Frostmourne is in more than one piece.

Also I think Q has the ability to alter reality so that Frostmourne could be broken normally. Qs are pretty damn powerful.

[Rutee]

Yes, Qs are very darn powerful. That's why I figure they'd overcome Frostmourne's indestructability. I suppose with as few words as possible, I tend to just look at those differences in base power. I can hardly say my view on things is absolute, but if there's no reason to believe the two powers in question are anywhere near each other, well.. whoever seems stronger wins. As far as a writer is concerned, they /were/ only talking about currently existing things in their own universe, is my reasoning.

[Rowanomicon]

Writers almost never consider their characters fighting characters from other universes.

My reasoning is while there may be circumstances that the "no one can willingly harm The Ring" is overcome or at least challenged it generally applies. So everyone form other universes who is not specifically protected is subject to it.
Would you agree?

It seems like we are slowly, but surely, coming to agree on my original stance. Perhaps it was unclear in the beginning.

[Rutee]

By "Is subject to", do you mean, in DnD terms, that everyone has to make a Will Save, or that everyone pretty much auto-fails it?

In DnD terms, I agree that pretty much everyone needs to make a Will Save. What I don't agree with is that people would generally auto-fail. You need to check what people can throw off in their home universe.

[EvilElitest]

By "Is subject to", do you mean, in DnD terms, that everyone has to make a Will Save, or that everyone pretty much auto-fails it?

In DnD terms, I agree that pretty much everyone needs to make a Will Save. What I don't agree with is that people would generally auto-fail. You need to check what people can throw off in their home universe.

well the nature of the ring means that if you have to make a will save you've kinda already exposed yourself it it
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

The way I see it is that most would auto-fail.
Even Sauron could not bring harm to it if he wanted to (stated by Tolkien)... Unless tolkien used a capital H when he said "his own" in which case he would have been referring to Eru (since he's th eonly one that get's to be capital H He... I never thought to look when WT posted that quote).
Anyway I can't remember, but I think Tolkien was referring to Sauron.

Anyway one's will or mental defences need to be above anything from Middle Earth for them to even have a chance on that will save and I already stated my position on immunity and resistance.

Most would auto-fail though based on the word of Tolkien himself. I assume an auto-fail until i see someone with a truely great will or mental defences.

[Rutee]

Then the part we disagree with is, likely, the strength of the compulsion the Ring exudes.

Not that any idiot is going to roll enough sux, of course, but..

[Tola]

I'll see if I can't get an actual reference(No book to hand at present), but Volcano Manipulation: The sky ends up darkened sufficiently through Mount Doom going off at full tilt that the Orcs can march on Minas Tirith, and most everyone believes the Dark Lord's behind it. I tend to agree with them.

Trivia: It's odd that both major efforts at The Lord of the Rings have Sauron doing really rather well against the Last Alliance, till Isildur gets his thing on(In the Ralph Bakshi version, Isildur is a 'Heroic Shadow' sneaking in....yeah, a sneak attack. Makes SENSE from a reality standpoint, but...).

[EvilElitest]

I'll see if I can't get an actual reference(No book to hand at present), but Volcano Manipulation: The sky ends up darkened sufficiently through Mount Doom going off at full tilt that the Orcs can march on Minas Tirith, and most everyone believes the Dark Lord's behind it. I tend to agree with them.

Trivia: It's odd that both major efforts at The Lord of the Rings have Sauron doing really rather well against the Last Alliance, till Isildur gets his thing on(In the Ralph Bakshi version, Isildur is a 'Heroic Shadow' sneaking in....yeah, a sneak attack. Makes SENSE from a reality standpoint, but...).

Brave Sir Robin Isildur shanked Sauron, he bravely shanked Sauron
When Sauron came to face cut his force some slack, he bravely stabbed him in the back
He pulled a rouge, he he cut him down, he bravely waited until he turned around,
He waited until his chums were dead, and then bravely went on ahead and cut down the boss and bravely looted his stuff


from
EE

[dehro]

dunno...there is only so much space around someone... it takes cutting down of the people in front of you before you can have a swing, doesn't it? (I can't remember but I doubt that tolkien went to the point of explaining directly from what direction isildur attacked sauron...)

[GoC]

Aargh!
Who wrecked my beautiful thread?:smallmad:
*glares at Rowan, Rutee and EvilElitest*

Info on one ring added.

Still got internet access... guess they decided against the upgrade.

[Rowanomicon]

Re: The One Ring

Walking Target has the book of letter, you can get the citation form him.

I believe the quote is that "no will, not even his own, can bring harm to The Ring" or something along those lines. So you can walk to Mt. Doom, but you cannot throw it intot he magma. You can say "I want to destroy The Ring," but when the time comes you will not be able.

[WalkingTarget]

From Letter #131:

"The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made - and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger."

And from Letter #246:

"I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist..."

I take these two lines and extrapolate this rough graph (sorry, bit of a science/math/computer nerd here, bear with me).

http://a284.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/19/l_5ac866db4dd21f2253c2f7961f79fabb.png

Now, I imagine this to represent the ability to have in one's mind a willful intention to cast the Ring into the Cracks of Doom at Orodruin. Implied in the first quote is that somebody with greater abilities as a smith than Sauron (Aulë, possibly Fëanor) might be able to do something to it without going to Mount Doom, but we'll ignore that for now. Since the only in-canon way to destroy the Ring is to take it to Sauron's home forge, where his influence is strongest of all locations in M-E, the closer one gets to that spot, the harder it is to actually intend to harm it.

A question of interpretation comes up at this point. While Sauron's will is insufficient to melt the Ring, would any greater being be able to do so. Taken absolutely literally, the answer would be "no" (see the line with "impossible" from the second letter above). A more subjective reading would be that it's impossible for anybody in Middle-earth, but that beings residing elsewhere who are more "powerful" than Sauron (the Valar in Aman are not, strickly speaking, in Middle-earth). That is, we don't know if the curve on the graph ever crosses the line indicating the Sammath Naur (is there an asymptote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptote) at that point). Take your pick (I know I think one way, but that others in these discussions disagree, and that's fine as it's not really resolvable using in-canon evidence that I'm aware of).

[Rowanomicon]

Thank you very much.
That gives me a bit more information than I had before.

[GoC]

So Rowan do you still think programming a robot to destroy the ring is impossible?:smallwink:

[EvilElitest]

So Rowan do you still think programming a robot to destroy the ring is impossible?:smallwink:

wouldn't that require the knowlage of the ring's destruction and thus making it impossible
Remember, Frodo who was very far away from Mt. Doom couldn't even throw the ring into a harmless fire or hit it with a simple hammer
from
EE

[tyckspoon]

wouldn't that require the knowlage of the ring's destruction and thus making it impossible
Remember, Frodo who was very far away from Mt. Doom couldn't even throw the ring into a harmless fire or hit it with a simple hammer
from
EE

Frodo was right there *with* the ring. Even without the additional influence of being on the slopes of Mt. Doom he was directly interacting with the source of the 'do no harm' compulsion. I asked in another thread if the compulsion would go so far as to be absolute through only word of mouth- say the hypothetical robot maker has never personally seen, touched, or even been within several miles of the Ring. All he knows of it is that it's the tool of a great evil and the procedure his robot should follow to get rid of it. Can he make that robot? Rowan said he can't, which is approaching Silver Age Superman's worldwide hypnosis by way of brainwave-amplifying eyeglasses for stretching suspension of disbelief.

[Rutee]

Frodo was right there *with* the ring. Even without the additional influence of being on the slopes of Mt. Doom he was directly interacting with the source of the 'do no harm' compulsion. I asked in another thread if the compulsion would go so far as to be absolute through only word of mouth- say the hypothetical robot maker has never personally seen, touched, or even been within several miles of the Ring. All he knows of it is that it's the tool of a great evil and the procedure his robot should follow to get rid of it. Can he make that robot? Rowan said he can't, which is approaching Silver Age Superman's worldwide hypnosis by way of brainwave-amplifying eyeglasses for stretching suspension of disbelief.
Isn't it also something of a contradiction? By that logic, the Fellowship /could not/ set out in the first place, unless they had 0 confidence in their ability to succeed.

Edit: Looking at WT's quotes in particular, it would seem that when the Ring exerted its maximum power, at which point it was impossible. We can surmise that this is basically not something it can do whenever the hell it wants, or else it would have influenced them in a more useful way (Such as forcing GAndalf to take it and use it). Potentially, one could construct some form of really, really good catapult, and hurl the ring into Mordor, /over/ Sauron's defenses.

And into Mt. Doom, I mean..

[EvilElitest]

Frodo was right there *with* the ring. Even without the additional influence of being on the slopes of Mt. Doom he was directly interacting with the source of the 'do no harm' compulsion. I asked in another thread if the compulsion would go so far as to be absolute through only word of mouth- say the hypothetical robot maker has never personally seen, touched, or even been within several miles of the Ring. All he knows of it is that it's the tool of a great evil and the procedure his robot should follow to get rid of it. Can he make that robot? Rowan said he can't, which is approaching Silver Age Superman's worldwide hypnosis by way of brainwave-amplifying eyeglasses for stretching suspension of disbelief.

In knowing the existence of the ring, you naturally wish too obtain it or not hurt it. Sure it 'could' happen, but then the programing wouldn't work as the person in question hadn't seen the ring and couldn't program the robot. Also if the robot had any remote sense of free will it could break off

And rutee
1. They didn't really have any hope of success anyways
2. A giant catapult? Yeah......
from
EE

[Rutee]

In knowing the existence of the ring, you naturally wish too obtain it or not hurt it. Sure it 'could' happen, but then the programing wouldn't work as the person in question hadn't seen the ring and couldn't program the robot. Also if the robot had any remote sense of free will it could break off
Notwithstanidng that this seems to contradict the setting-off in the first place, that is /exactly/ as believable as Silver Age Superman's Super-hypnosis.



And rutee
1. They didn't really have any hope of success anyways
2. A giant catapult? Yeah......
from
EE

1. Provide a quote taht directly says they held 0 hope. Not them saying their endeavor was pointless; An inner monologue or something that stated they /believed/ it.
2. No no, the next line is "...That's retarded, Boromir."

[EvilElitest]

Notwithstanidng that this seems to contradict the setting-off in the first place, that is /exactly/ as believable as Silver Age Superman's Super-hypnosis.


Eh?


1. Provide a quote taht directly says they held 0 hope. Not them saying their endeavor was pointless; An inner monologue or something that stated they /believed/ it.
2. No no, the next line is "...That's retarded, Boromir."

"Our only hope is a fool's hope" or something like that. I mean their plan was so freaking stupid that Sauron never expected it (i mean i wouldn't think that my smart foes would send away the greatest weapon in the world in the hands of a hobbit into the center of my power
2. "Their is a reason why your the only fellowship member who dies"
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

What does Gandalf say "Do not trust a hope"?
He basically spells it out that their options are
A) Do nothing and lose to the Dark Lord
or
B) Do something and still lose to the Dark Lord, but hey, at least we tried to do something

tyckspoon, I believe your're putting words in my mouth.
I said that somone who knows of The Ring would not program such a robot.
The question was then brought up of how much knowldge would that person have to have of The Ring to not be able to program that robot.

If you've seen it you can't, and that doesn't require any knowledge really.

However, speculating on what puts you under The Ring's power is perfectly valid.

If someone came up and said "There's a gloden ring that needs to be destroyed. Create a robot that destroys golden rings by throwing them into Mt. Doom" then I think that person would be able to create a robot that destroys golden rings by throwing them into Mt. Doom (assuming they know the volcanoe's location).

Any speculation on exactly how much knowledge it takes is perfectly valid, but just that: speculation. Cannonically if you think that what you are doing will bring harm to The One Ring then you cannon do it. Obviously if you look at earlier post in this thread you will see that some cases of resistance may occur.

[GoC]

In knowing the existence of the ring, you naturally wish too obtain it or not hurt it.
Evidence? When has someone known of the ring (but never seen it) and desired it beyond what a normal person would desire a powerful ring?


Sure it 'could' happen, but then the programing wouldn't work as the person in question hadn't seen the ring and couldn't program the robot.
"Destroy the corrupting ring known as 'the one ring'. It can only be destroyed in Mt. Doom and resides in the hands of Bilbo Baggins, the hobbit."


They didn't really have any hope of success anyways
So as Sam helped Frodo up the last 10ft of mountain he had no hope whatsoever of getting there? Right.

Why don't you just stop debating this as niether of you are convincing anyone and if a debate isn't to convince or have fun then what's it for?

Anyway isn't anyone going to help me fill in the blanks in the first and second posts?

[Rowanomicon]

Evidence? When has someone known of the ring (but never seen it) and desired it beyond what a normal person would desire a powerful ring?
Saruman


Why don't you just stop debating this as niether of you are convincing anyone and if a debate isn't to convince or have fun then what's it for?

Anyway isn't anyone going to help me fill in the blanks in the first and second posts?

You bring up a good point. Why should we continue to help you figure out the powers of Sauron and The Ring if you're not going to engage in reasonable dialogue?

[GoC]

Saruman
I said "beyond what a normal person would desire a powerful ring". And wasn't the reason he became corrupted related to his use of the palantir?


You bring up a good point. Why should we continue to help you figure out the powers of Sauron and The Ring if you're not going to engage in reasonable dialogue?
How about we talk about something else? Sauron's melee skill for example. Or you could help provide citations. That's less controversial.If you still want to leave then feel free. I won't mind.

[Rowanomicon]

Well Saruman's desire of The RIng drove him to do things that somsone as wise as him would never do (ie. Use the Palantir).

Yes, Sauron communicated with Saruman via the Palantir and thus exerted his will over him and manipulated him more fully, but Saruman's desire for The Ring originated in his studies of Ringlore. He became obsessed.
I would say that driving one as wise as the leader of the Istari to obsession and illogical activities is beyond normal "I would like power." I would like power (I think pretty much everyone would), but I'm not going to do something that I know will be bad for myself and the world to do it and I am certainly not inhumanly wise (or am I?).

Anyway, on to Sauron's melee skill.
The Witch King takes down Theodin and Eowyn (Rohan's greatest fighter) with little to no effort. Sauron must be above this as he has the means to create superior bodies for himself and has had longer to practice. Also, having been around since before creation and served under Aule the smith Valar, he would have a deep understanding of the laws of reality (physics etc) as well as more than intimate knowledge of armor and weaponry. Again, he has also had a long time to study fighting, how people think and react in a fight, etc etc.

Sauron solos Gil'Galad and Elendil in his post-Numenor state so we should look at them to see what their limits are.

[WalkingTarget]

Well Saruman's desire of The RIng drove him to do things that somsone as wise as him would never do (ie. Use the Palantir).

Yes, Sauron communicated with Saruman via the Palantir and thus exerted his will over him and manipulated him more fully, but Saruman's desire for The Ring originated in his studies of Ringlore. He became obsessed.
I would say that driving one as wise as the leader of the Istari to obsession and illogical activities is beyond normal "I would like power." I would like power (I think pretty much everyone would), but I'm not going to do something that I know will be bad for myself and the world to do it and I am certainly not inhumanly wise (or am I?).

I don't have any books handy, but this is more or less my impression as well.

However:

The Witch King takes down Theodin and Eowyn (Rohan's greatest fighter) with little to no effort.

I don't think that these two are the greatest of Rohan's fighters. Theoden, while not as frail as Grima's whispers had made him believe, was still over 70 years old at the time of his death (and his "defeat" in the battle was due more to his horse being spooked by the Fell Beast + Nazgul more than anything, there wasn't even a fight there).

Eowyn, while not exactly a weakling herself, is unlikely to have been the "greatest" either when it comes to sheer martial prowess. I'd say (of named characters) it'd be more likely that Eomer, Grimbold, Elfhelm, or Erkenbrand would have better claims to that title.

[Rowanomicon]

I don't have any of my books with me traveling, but I believe it was said that Eowyn was better than even Eomer.

[EvilElitest]

I said "beyond what a normal person would desire a powerful ring". And wasn't the reason he became corrupted related to his use of the palantir?
[QUOTE]

No his desire for the ring drove him to search for it secretly and to use the Palantir
[QUOTE]
How about we talk about something else? Sauron's melee skill for example. Or you could help provide citations. That's less controversial.If you still want to leave then feel free. I won't mind.

And GoC evades the point completely, amazing evasion that

Eowyn, while not exactly a weakling herself, is unlikely to have been the "greatest" either when it comes to sheer martial prowess. I'd say (of named characters) it'd be more likely that Eomer, Grimbold, Elfhelm, or Erkenbrand would have better claims to that title
Read the houses of healing, or maybe the exchange between Faramir and Eowyen, the narration says that she is the greatest warrior of Rohan

from
EE

[GoC]

No his desire for the ring drove him to search for it secretly and to use the Palantir
As we cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that it wasn't just a desire to end the great evil of Sauron this cannot be included. If you manage to convince one of the 7-8 people who said that LK won in the LK vs. Sauron thread then I will reconsider. But currently "reasonable doubt" applies as they are all reasonable people.


And GoC evades the point completely, amazing evasion that
He accused me of not engaging in reasonable dialog so I courteously ignored it. What would he (and you) have me say?


Read the houses of healing, or maybe the exchange between Faramir and Eowyen, the narration says that she is the greatest warrior of Rohan
I just skimmed houses of healing, couldn't find it. I'll look for the Faramr/Eowyn chat later.

Everyone: Where is Sauron on this scale?
Bear in mind it's from Mutants and Masterminds and is designed for a superhero universe like the one Bullseye, Taskmaster and Batman come from.
Combat ability:
Untrained (+0)

No ability
(Civilian)

Some Training (+1 to +2)
A little talent or training.
(Police Officer, Gang Member, evening classes in self-defense)

Regular Training (+3 to +4)
Some talent or professional training.
(Police Officers marksmanship, experienced soldiers)

Highly Trained (+5 to +6)
Excellent natural talent or training.
(typical Ninja)

Highly Experienced (+7 to +8)
Great natural talent or intensive training.
(superb martial artist)

Expert Skills (+9 to +10)
Long combat experience or incredibly trained, included amongst the best around

Mastery (+11 to +12)
Peerless skill, amongst an elite of the world’s greatest combatants.

Legendary (+13 to +14)
Far greater than human. The greatest combatants ever.

Superhuman (+15 to +16)
Combat prowess beyond mundane human ability.

Powerful Superhuman (+17 to +18)
Great natural superhuman talent or intensive training.

Unbelievably Powerful Superhuman (+19 to +20)
Long superhuman combat experience or unbelievably trained, included amongst the best around the cosmos. You may be a demi-god.

Overwhelmingly Powerful Meta-Human (+21 to +25)
Peerless skill amongst an elite of the cosmos’ greatest combatants. A legendary fighter amongst demi-gods.

Otherworldly (+26 to +30)
The greatest combatants in the cosmos bow to your fighting prowess. A legend amongst demi-gods.

Near-Cosmic (+31 to +35)
You have no equals throughout many realms.

Cosmic (+36 to +40)
You have no equals anywhere.

Godlike (+41 to +50)
A god. You are victorious over all.

[WalkingTarget]

Read the houses of healing, or maybe the exchange between Faramir and Eowyen, the narration says that she is the greatest warrior of Rohan

Houses of Healing, all I can find is "but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours" which says nothing about her skill as a warrior, just her mentality.

The later chapter, The Steward and the King, has this line "...here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle" but this is a line where Eowyn is observing Faramir, not the other way around (but may be what you're remembering).

All other references in these chapters seem to be about how she has won high renown for her deeds and is worthy of praise, but do not indicate superlative combat ability.

Also, from Letter 244:

"Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis."

Which, again, doesn't really paint her as the greatest warrior amongst the Eorlingas.

GoC: about Sauron's fighting ability, those ratings are (unfortunately) very subjective. If pressed, I'd say he's in the 17-20 range (while he is superhuman, he's not the most combat-ready of the Maiar), but there's really no way to prove where he'd go on that scale. Other people can have other opinions which would be just as valid due to lack of a reasonable metric to measure against.

[Matar]

The fact that Sauron had no more then seven Balrogs. At most. That's a nice thing to add.

In one of Tolkien's early Middle-earth writings, Lay of the Children of Húrin, "Lungothrin, Lord of Balrogs" is mentioned. It is not, however, certain if it was another name for Gothmog, or it simply meant "a Balrog lord". According to Christopher Tolkien, the latter is more probable, as the name Gothmog was mentioned in the earliest Middle-earth writings, as well as the final version of Tolkien's mythology.

The Balrogs were originally envisioned as being immense in number:

"The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in 'hundreds' (p. 170), and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers: "thus five fell before Tuor's great axe Dramborleg, three before Ecthelion's sword, and two score were slain by the warriors of the king's house." The Book of Lost Tales 2, commentary by Christopher Tolkien on The Fall of Gondolin.

"There came wolves and serpents and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glomund the Father of Dragons." The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion chapter 16, §15.

As the legendarium became more formidable and internally consistent, and the Balrogs more terrible, this number was much reduced. In the end Tolkien stated that there were "at most" seven Balrogs:

"In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'" Morgoth's Ring, Section 2 (AAm*): note 50 (just before section 3).

The amount of Balrogs changed to at most 7 at the same time they 'became' Maiar in Tolkien's mind. So this note is the only applicable indication of Balrog numbers that Tolkien wrote.

[EvilElitest]

Matar, anything in Tolkien's letters that appears to be altered in later works is subjective. Balrogs appear to gather in larger numbers in the other writings

from
EE

[Matar]

I honestly don't know how to say it any better then this.

I don't care what you say. Compared to the word Tolkien, what you say/think about LOTR is entirely worthless.

Unless you bring up quotes from the books, dates, and somehow prove that the above spoiler thingy is completly wrong.

Well... your wrong. It's that simple. Tolkiens word is far above your own when it comes to his own work.

It's that simple. Complain, whine, do whatever you want. It won't change the simple fact that the God of LOTR wrote it, and said it was true.

Don't like it? No ones cares.

[Matar]

I honestly don't know how to say it any better then this.

I don't care what you say. Compared to the word Tolkien, what you say/think about LOTR is entirely worthless.

Unless you bring up quotes from the books, dates, and somehow prove that the above spoiler thingy is completly wrong.

Well... your wrong. It's that simple. Tolkiens word is far above your own when it comes to his own work.

It's that simple. Complain, whine, do whatever you want. It won't change the simple fact that the God of LOTR wrote it, and said it was true.

Don't like it? No ones cares.

[WalkingTarget]

Matar, if you have those books handy, do they supply approximate dates for when the individual notes were written so that order of precedence can be established (I agree with you that the final version of Balrogs were low in number).

I don't recall anything in the Silmarillion or Children of Hurin that states how many Balrogs there were, so the notes in the History of Middle-earth series would be definitive.

None of those points are addressed within the Letters. They're only mentioned three times (according to the index at least, I don't remember anything else and it probably would have stuck out to me if it had been mentioned) and no mention is made of their numbers. One refers to their nature as spirits of destroying fire and that they all were to have been destroyed at the end of the First Age, but no mention is made of how many that would have been. Another is about how the Balrog in Moria doesn't speak or laugh (in a critique by Tolkien of a film treatment he'd been sent). And the third is a passing reference in response to somebody's attempt at translating Legolas' name (the person had come up with "firey locks" somehow).

[EvilElitest]

Malar, I already responded to this, and you apparently didn't check what i said


in certain sections of the book it seems like there are more than than seven Balrogs, because they are gathering in a large force.

1) their creation
2) the capture of Morgoth when they fight against hte valar
3) saving Morgoth from the giant spider
4) the slaying of Feanor
5) The Battle of Sudden Flame
6) Battle of Unnumbered Tears
7) Siege of Gondalion
8)The siege of Angband (not sure about this one)
9) the war of the wrath

Also they are weaker than dragons and why would dragons be more numerous. It seems like they are a more, though Sauorn personally would only control some

from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

Also they are weaker than dragons and why would dragons be more numerous. It seems like they are a more, though Sauorn personally would only control some


History of Middle-earth, Vol. II, p.85. In Turambar and the Foalókë a comparison between dragon and Balrog of power is made, "yet of all are they (dragons) the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."

Balrogs (later versions) -> Maiar, so fixed in number
Dragons (later version) -> a "race" or species (or whatever), so they can breed and be very numerous

If you have evidence that would incontrovertibly prove that there have to be a large number of Balrogs, please provide a quotation instead of just mentioning places where they are discussed at all. If Balrogs are more dangerous than dragons, having a handful of them at a battle is significant in itself.

[Matar]

Malar, I already responded to this, and you apparently didn't check what i said


in certain sections of the book it seems like there are more than than seven Balrogs, because they are gathering in a large force.

1) their creation
2) the capture of Morgoth when they fight against hte valar
3) saving Morgoth from the giant spider
4) the slaying of Feanor
5) The Battle of Sudden Flame
6) Battle of Unnumbered Tears
7) Siege of Gondalion
8)The siege of Angband (not sure about this one)
9) the war of the wrath

Also they are weaker than dragons and why would dragons be more numerous. It seems like they are a more, though Sauorn personally would only control some

from
EE

Tolkins word is above the book.

What part of that don't you understand?

[EvilElitest]

Tolkins word is above the book.

What part of that don't you understand?

have you read what i said? Published work goes above letters that were never published. Tolkien never wished to publish his notes or his letters. We take them as cannon, but published work is more important. For example in his notes, published as the lost tales


The Book of Lost Tales 2, commentary by Christopher Tolkien on The Fall of Gondolin.
There came wolves and serpents and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glaurung the Father of Dragons
eh?

When regarding a writer's notes you need to be extremely careful, doubly so when he never intended to publish them.

from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

have you read what i said? Published work goes above letters that were never published. Tolkien never wished to publish his notes or his letters. We take them as cannon, but published work is more important. For example in his notes, published as the lost tales


The Book of Lost Tales 2, commentary by Christopher Tolkien on The Fall of Gondolin.
There came wolves and serpents and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glaurung the Father of Dragons
eh?

When regarding a writer's notes you need to be extremely careful, doubly so when he never intended to publish them.

from
EE

Yes, EE, but the point he's been making is that the notes are contradictory, but the later notes, from when he's trying to make things internally consistent in order to publish (because he'd been trying to get the Silmarillion published in one form or another since the late 30s), are the ones that specifies the lower number of Balrogs.

That is, there are small numbers listed and large numbers listed, but the later version, when he's working things into their final forms, are the ones that list smaller numbers. He changed his mind before publication. It's like how the character that became Aragorn was initially a hobbit named "Trotter". He changed his mind before publication. None of the "published" material specifies the number of Balrogs, and the author was still working on things when he died, but the latest, most well-developed-in-his-mind version of them was a small number of highly dangerous beings. I can quote Wikipedia as well as the next guy.

"As the legendarium became more formidable and internally consistent, and the Balrogs more terrible, this number was much reduced. In the end Tolkien stated that there were "at most" seven Balrogs:

In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.

Morgoth's Ring, Section 2 (AAm*): note 50 (just before section 3). "

The published Silmarillion has no mention of their numbers (just got done checking every reference to them listed in the index), so the notes are all we have (and given that the Silmarillion wasn't even a "final" form from J.R.R. Tolkien's point of view, even it is suspect, really). Since he had continued to work on it and try to get it into a consistent form right up until his death, I'd say that the later notes have precedence. Either that, or none of the notes have any meaning in this context and it becomes a completely unanswerable question as The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings also don't address it.

[Tola]

On the skill of Sauron in Melee:

I'd put him at AT LEAST Super Human, if only due to his inherant strength as a Maia.

However, the Elves and Humans at their height, in the Last Alliance, I'd put at Powerful Superhuman at least-they were very powerful in the old days, enough so that in the early days, there was little real difference between Men and Elves.(The Silmarillion notes this early on.)

It's hard to judge, though-we rarely, if ever, hear of Sauron directly fighting, so we've little to nothing to GO on. The closest thing I can think of are the magic song-duels in(of course) The Silmarillion. Of which we have one victory, and one loss.

Something that isn't noted in 'the list' is that he can be massively persuasive when he wishes to be. He goes to Numenor as a PRISONER(No trust at all), ends up becoming, effectively, a Grand Vizier-type(completely trusted), and leads them all straight to hell. All this with few 'tricks' or 'magic' mentioned. Sure, he went there deliberately, but even so...he's one hell of a charmer. That or he 'abused the system', but what else do you expect from The Dark Lord?

[EvilElitest]

Walking Target, before i respond, answer me this, when did Tolkien published that note on the Balrogs? Before or after the current version of the Simeralion? Because in that book it is strongly implied that there are more then seven balrogs


Three are slain before the war of the wraith. In the war of the wraith "many" balrogs are killed, and and yet a few were able to escape (including Durin's bane). They also came in great force during those parts of the book i mentioned.


It is worth noting that Glorfindal slew a balrog and then came back from the dead (or something to that effect, in a manner much like Gandalf) and he was weaker than Gil-ad
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

That's the problem with any of it, EE. J.R.R. Tolkien didn't publish any of it so using that to trump notes is inapplicable. The version of the Silmarillion that we have today was his son's best effort at putting together a coherent version of the stories out of notes and fragmentary stories written over most of his father's lifetime (and the published Silmarillion doesn't mention their numbers anyway). His son has even said that complete consistency with this version of the Silmarillion is impossible (see the introduction to the book) and that in various ways he probably got things wrong (a specific example is the genealogy of Gil-Galad). Christopher Tolkien published the "at most 7" line later than the others, but as his father hadn't finalized any of it, the order of publication is largely irrelevant. The only mention of Balrogs that was published in the lifetime of the author is what is present in LotR.

There are 2 balrogs slain before the WoW (Ecthelion and Glorfindel). Here's the only mention of Balrogs during the WoW - Silmarillion, page 251 (The Voyage of Earendil): "The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth..." so there's no mention of "many". I agree that "some few" is troublesome, but I point again to the consistency problem that Christopher admits to. Unfortunately, I don't own any of the History of Middle-Earth series, so I don't know if any of the notes we've been discussing have exact dates. All I have to go on is every place I can find that mentions the marginal note limiting them to 7 indicates that this is a later development. Since none of this is final I'd say you can have things one of two ways: either you take the early version of the Balrogs in which there are hundreds or thousands of them, but individual warriors can take on several at once, or you take the later version where there's a very small number, but they're of the "yeah you might kill one if you're really awesome, but you're probably going to die doing so" variety.

Glorfindel coming back is very different than the return of Gandalf. Gandalf's "human" body died and he was "sent back" (and it's not stated outright, but this was an act of divine intervention by Eru, not a native return by Olorin himself, nor an act by the Valar... Tolkien pointed to the line "strayed out of thought or time" as being outside of time would mean he'd left the circles of the world). When elves "die" their soul (or "fea") ends up in the halls of Mandos in Valinor (Luthien is the only exception). Usually, if they wish they can acquire bodies again (I want to say that Feanor's mother didn't want to return, and I think that Feanor isn't allowed to leave the halls... but I might be remembering that wrong, it's a minor point anyway). Glorfindel seems to have made a return journey to Middle-Earth after this process, which was abnormal (Tolkien wrote about Glorfindel and the balrog, then later wrote his scene in the Lord of the Rings, then eventually noticed that he'd reused the name and decided he'd rather come up with an explanation as to why he was still around rather than change one of them into a different character).

As for comparisons with Gil-Galad, I see no basis for saying that one was greater than the other. We know that Glorfindel and Ecthelion were the chosen warriors to guard the flanks from attack during the retreat to the Pass of Sirion after the Fifth Battle (Silmarillion p 194). This and the mention of him during his fight with the Balrog are the only mentions of Glorfindel in the book. Gil-Galad is mostly simply referenced as he was king (only spoken of as a warrior during the Last Alliance and, specifically, during the fight with Sauron, well after Glorfindel was slain).

[EvilElitest]

1. the lost tales are Tolkien's notes, are they generally less cannon than Tolkien's letters?
2. Even in the Simeralion, there is no mentioned of the exact size of the balrogs, and from all of there appearances, it seems to me like they are a good deal. We can't know for sure
3. On the issue with Gil-ad, i believe in some of those second age poems he was described as the greatest elf of his time. He was the high king and did use the super special awesome glaive of awesomeness so that gotta count for something
4. Glorfindel was one of the six dudes to fight sauron during the Second age, along with Isildur, Elendil, Ciron, Elrond and Gil-ad, but he didn't do as much as Gil-ad or Elendil.
5. Wait as second here, this is important
I was under the impression that Gandalf was > to Glorifindal
Glorfindal> Balrog (barely)
Gandal > Balrog (barely)


Now i was generally under the impression that Balrog > The Nazgul, but wait a second

The nine Nazgul at extremly weak power > Glorfindal at full power plus Aragorn, plus three hobbits

Now the WK along is at least = to Gandalf in power, this is very interesting
6. Why haven't any other elves come back from the dead? was glorfindal a special case, or do only Elf lords come back

from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

Sorry, EE, but I gotta go with the other guys on this. There were only ever 7 or so Balrogs. Now he said "should" so if we have solid evidence or 8 or 9 reasonable fitting in with the newer version (Maiar) of Balrogs then I'd accept that, but the earlier version of there being hundreds no are specifically stated by Tolkien as not the final version.

Balrogs are possibly the most inconsistant/argued about thing from Tolkien (At least before Sauron Vs threads came along).

Now lets not get started on if they have wings or nor and whether those wings (if they have thme) allow them to fly. Gods, a Vs thread with a Balrog would be the worst thing ever. Too bad Balrogs weren't better defined, they sound badass "Shadow and Flame"..."Dark Fire"... man, I wants me some o' that.

GoC, at first glance I'd put Sauron at about a 19 to 25 on that scale...it depends who you're comparing him to.
It doesn't seem like a great scale for Middle Earth though.

Also it says that "You have no equals anywhere." and then there's one step higher. What gives?

Is "Godlike" supposed to be like Q basically?

Also it is unclear how "superhuman" some levels are. Elendil/GilGalad could be anywhere from 13 to 18 based on just looking at that scale.

However I'll take other character's into account and try to figure things out from top to bottom and bottom to top and hopefully get a good match for Sauron.

If Faramir is greater than any fighter from Rohan, but still basically a normal man and not superhuman at all, then he'd be at "Mastery" level.
The Aragorn, with his running for days straight and having a divine being in his bloodline etc, would be "Legendary."
That would put Elves and Numenorians at "Superhuman" with Elendil and Gil-Galad being "Powerful Superhuman" along with others that are near the peak of elven and (Numenorian) humand kind.
That means that by the bottom up comparison our minimum rating for Sauron is "Unbelievably Powerful Superhuman."

If Eru is "Godlike," and I think he is, the Melkor would be "Cosmic" considering he is the most powerful of the Valar and it seems like there was a decent margin there. Then the other Valar could be "Near-Cosmic" and that would leave out maximum rating for Sauron at "Otherworldly."

That's not bad, we only have three possible slots for Sauron... We could just put him in the middle one and call it a day... Or...

I think it is stated that he is the most powerful of the Maiar (citation please).
Gandalf seems to think that even with his full power unleashed he couldn't take Sauron alone, and certainly not if Sauron had The Ring (we are trying to figure out Sauron's power with The Ring, right?)

So if most of the Maiar fall into "Unbelievably Powerful Superhuman" it isn't much of a stretch to put Sauron into "Overwhelmingly Powerful Meta-Human" is it?

Now that's two possible categories we're down to.

So the question is: Do the Maiar span from 19-25 for the most part and put Sauron in the 26-30 range or do the Valar span from 26-35 for the most part and leave Sauron in the 21-25 range?

We know that the Valar are not so much more powerful than Sauron that he is helpless to their magic. In fact he went unharmed by the lightning and it seemed to me from the story that he halted the attack, if only temporarily. From what the Numenorians say that attack could have been from only Manwe himself or form all of the "Lords of the West" so there really is no way to tell exactly how much power form how many fo the Valar was behind it. Safe to say they weren't just pretending though. I'd say it's at least Manwe's power and possibly a combined, but not pushed tot he limit, will behind that attack.
The way I see it is that either the Valar were individually doing their thing (Manwe sending the eagles, the Valar of the sea sinking ships, etc) or they were all working together to do those things and the eagle were the biggest and mot direct attack. I think it's th elatter since the eagles were more intense and direct than anything else and I see no reasonf or Manwe to be the most angry and vengeful of the Valar in that situation.

So, speculate as you will. I'd say that, by that scale, Sauron is a 21-30. However, that's just using characters and beings form Middle Earth and interpreting a vague scale as best I can.

EDIT: EE, WK is roughly equal to Gandalf's nerfed state of being in a mortal body. If Gandalf decided to unleash his full power then WK would be screwed, no questions asked.

Also, part of the reason Aragorn and them were running from the Nazgul was that they were pressed for time to get Frodo to a cleric stat. He needed healing bad. Also, they were outnumbered and melee would have been messy.

[EvilElitest]

Sorry, EE, but I gotta go with the other guys on this. There were only ever 7 or so Balrogs. Now he said "should" so if we have solid evidence or 8 or 9 reasonable fitting in with the newer version (Maiar) of Balrogs then I'd accept that, but the earlier version of there being hundreds no are specifically stated by Tolkien as not the final version.

Balrogs are possibly the most inconsistant/argued about thing from Tolkien (At least before Sauron Vs threads came along).

Now lets not get started on if they have wings or nor and whether those wings (if they have thme) allow them to fly. Gods, a Vs thread with a Balrog would be the worst thing ever. Too bad Balrogs weren't better defined, they sound badass "Shadow and Flame"..."Dark Fire"... man, I wants me some o' that.

OK, but the point remains, there are a few Balrogs, they are extremely badass and powerful, and led by Gothmog the Lord of the Balrogs.



If Faramir is greater than any fighter from Rohan, but still basically a normal man and not superhuman at all, then he'd be at "Mastery" level.
The Aragorn, with his running for days straight and having a divine being in his bloodline etc, would be "Legendary."
It is worth noting that Boromir is greater than Faramir for the record



That would put Elves and Numenorians at "Superhuman" with Elendil and Gil-Galad being "Powerful Superhuman" along with others that are near the peak of elven and (Numenorian) humand kind.
That means that by the bottom up comparison our minimum rating for Sauron is "Unbelievably Powerful Superhuman."


See my Glorfindal post




I think it is stated that he is the most powerful of the Maiar (citation please).
Gandalf seems to think that even with his full power unleashed he couldn't take Sauron alone, and certainly not if Sauron had The Ring (we are trying to figure out Sauron's power with The Ring, right?)

I think the Five wizards at full power couldn't stand against ringless Sauron.



Now that's two possible categories we're down to.

So the question is: Do the Maiar span from 19-25 for the most part and put Sauron in the 26-30 range or do the Valar span from 26-35 for the most part and leave Sauron in the 21-25 range?

We know that the Valar are not so much more powerful than Sauron that he is helpless to their magic. In fact he went unharmed by the lightning and it seemed to me from the story that he halted the attack, if only temporarily. From what the Numenorians say that attack could have been from only Manwe himself or form all of the "Lords of the West" so there really is no way to tell exactly how much power form how many fo the Valar was behind it. Safe to say they weren't just pretending though. I'd say it's at least Manwe's power and possibly a combined, but not pushed tot he limit, will behind that attack.
Well it was the most powerful attack they were willing to do that wouldn't blow up the entire island, so...




EDIT: EE, WK is roughly equal to Gandalf's nerfed state of being in a mortal body. If Gandalf decided to unleash his full power then WK would be screwed, no questions asked.
Ok, but the point remains, it seems like Glorfindal is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, and The Wk is more powerful than Glorfindal. Remember this is the WK at his weakest (as Sauron does not have the ring)


Also, part of the reason Aragorn and them were running from the Nazgul was that they were pressed for time to get Frodo to a cleric stat. He needed healing bad. Also, they were outnumbered and melee would have been messy.
No, when Gandalf talks about Glorfindal he says the reason why they didn't fight the nine as Frodo fled is because they were no match for the nine
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

The reason Glorfindel seems greater than Gandalf is because Gandalf doesn't ever use even a fraction of his power except when he fights the Balrog and we don't get to see any of the specifics of that. Of course I think Tolkien did that on purpose. He wanted the divine characters to be aknowledged as very powerful, but did not want to set known limit and powers on them. He was also going for a more Merlin type wizard feel as opposed to wizards that knew a set number of certain spells.
He din't want to "These guys are power level 9000 and can cast a fireball that does 19 kerbgillion damage in a 30 foot radius or a hydoken that does 83 kergillion damage to one person" because that's not his style. And because that style probably hadn't even eben invented yet. Oh for a simpler time... but I digress.
I think that Gandalf true power is greater than pretty much any elf's. The greatest elves of all time would rank on the same scale as a Maia, but even Elrond would not be quite up there.

Also, yes, the Nine would have stomped them at that point. Even Gandalf, Aragorn, and Glorfindel combined could not safely fight six of the lesser Nazgul or the WK and four of the lesser. Perhaps less than that, but even then it's no cake walk. Especially while Gandalf is not using his actual power. I believe it says somewhere that he is only alowed to use the arts of mortals which means that can only use magic that a human could, given the time and will, learn. He is, of course, greater in will power (casting stat) than any humans, save maybe Aragorn, but he's a special case...

Anyway, Boromir is greater than Faramir? Where does it say that? I got the impression that Boromir was favoured by his father, but, if anything Faramir was actually greater. I liked Faramir more at any rate, not that Boromir wasn't fun...

[EvilElitest]

The reason Glorfindel seems greater than Gandalf is because Gandalf doesn't ever use even a fraction of his power except when he fights the Balrog and we don't get to see any of the specifics of that. Of course I think Tolkien did that on purpose. He wanted the divine characters to be aknowledged as very powerful, but did not want to set known limit and powers on them. He was also going for a more Merlin type wizard feel as opposed to wizards that knew a set number of certain spells.
He din't want to "These guys are power level 9000 and can cast a fireball that does 19 kerbgillion damage in a 30 foot radius or a hydoken that does 83 kergillion damage to one person" because that's not his style. And because that style probably hadn't even eben invented yet. Oh for a simpler time... but I digress.

I was talking about Gandalf's 'mortal' power through it is worth noting that the five wizards combined weren't as powerful as Sauron without the ring.




Also, yes, the Nine would have stomped them at that point. Even Gandalf, Aragorn, and Glorfindel combined could not safely fight six of the lesser Nazgul or the WK and four of the lesser. Perhaps less than that, but even then it's no cake walk. Especially while Gandalf is not using his actual power. I believe it says somewhere that he is only alowed to use the arts of mortals which means that can only use magic that a human could, given the time and will, learn. He is, of course, greater in will power (casting stat) than any humans, save maybe Aragorn, but he's a special case...

So that means the Nine combined at their weaker third age status are more powerful than a balrog




Anyway, Boromir is greater than Faramir? Where does it say that? I got the impression that Boromir was favoured by his father, but, if anything Faramir was actually greater. I liked Faramir more at any rate, not that Boromir wasn't fun...

Boromir was a better fighter but less smart
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

Yes, even in Sauron's non-Ring state they definitely seemed concerned that straigh godly combat would take either take too much energy from the Maiar and Valar or cause too much collateral damage...

I'm interested in knowing where it says that Boromir was actually superior to Faramir in combat prowess. I don't think Bormomir was less smart than Faramir (maybe a bit, but not much). He was just more ambitous. They also had different pressures on them. Neither of their roles were easy...


So that means the Nine combined at their weaker third age status are more powerful than a balrog

You bring up a good point. One possability is that, being alone and far from civilization, Gandalf unleashed his true power against the Balrog in that fight. I think this is the case as Balrogs ae meant to be in the upper regions of power for Maiar. Granted I seem to remember something about Gandalf being the most powerful exceptin Sauron, but I'm not sur eof the source.

Anyway, I'd sya that Gandalf's full power could handle the Nine. While he stays with his mortal nerfin he's about equal to the WK and Glorfindel is about that same level (so could take two of lesser Nazgul, maybe three) and Aragorn is the love child of Superman and Jesus so he can also take two or three of the Lesser Nazgul. Numbers also count for a lot in melee (unless you're Spartan) so Nine vs three would be unfair.

As for The Nine Vs a Balrog, I don't know. IN raw power a Balrog is definitely above even the WK, but then again they outnumber him Nine to one so...

[EvilElitest]

It is worth pointing out that Glorfindal can defeat a Balrog, but can't defeat the Nine in their third age forms
from
EE

[GoC]

I'm sorry but I'm without internet access at the moment. I'll try and include all this into the first post once my internet's working again, ok?

[Rowanomicon]

Hmm,
So two Balrog killers and the greates man since Elendil can't take the Nazgul in melee. That implies a certain amount of prowess on the Nazgul's part.

However, their combined magic (did Elrond help too?) was able to destroy the Nazgul's bodies. We know that Gandalf or Glorfindel cannot just magic a Balrog dead, they must also enter into combat with it.

As I said numbers do come into play. Nine Nazgul may be harder to face than one Balrog even though a Balrog is significantly more powerful than a Nazgul. besides. Even in killing a Balrog both of them died so even if the Nine together equal about the same CR encounter as a single Balrog then that is a lose lose situation for both sides...which is a win for team evil in that case.

I'd really like to know if people (especially GoC) think my placement of Sauron on that scale is accurate.

I understand internet troubles. I've had planty since only being able to use Central American internet cafes.

Hmm, homebrewing a Balrog would be kinda fun. Of course you'd just have to interpret a lot of stuf since they are ven more vague than Sauron. I think a couple divine ranks since they're Maiar and then some shadow and flame stuff. Maybe that fire lash ability from Pyrokineticists... woah! Tolkien casters could be Pionic in a D&D setting. Oh my gods, I think I'll do that if/when I homebrew any Tolkien characters/monsters.

[GoC]

Rowan: Well as the scale is designed for a superhero universe where virtualy everyone is at the bleeding edge of human ability I'd put Gil-Galad at +13 and Fingolfin (the guy who beat Melkor?) at +14. Sauron is not really a fighter in the books and is probably as good as the other Maia +16.
Now that I look at it that scale is very badly designed. It has "intense training" above "limits of human ability". Wierd.

I can't work on citations because I've got the book on my HD and only have internet at a internet cafe. Needless to say my ancient computer lacks a USB port.:smallannoyed:

[EvilElitest]

However, their combined magic (did Elrond help too?) was able to destroy the Nazgul's bodies. We know that Gandalf or Glorfindel cannot just magic a Balrog dead, they must also enter into combat with it.

yeah elrond and the natrual super powerful defensive magic of Riven Dale helped. in the book Glorfindal helped as well, and the WK didn't die, just his horse and all of his men


And GoC, he didn't defeat Melkor, i already said that
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

GoC, yeah. It depends on who you compare him to.

I was sticking with just the Tolkien universe.

It's like on a scale of one to ten where a commoner is 1 and Aragorn is 5 then Sauron is likely an 8 but on a scale of one to ten where a commoner is 1 and Aragorn is 3 then Sauron is likely a 6.

It all depends on the power difference in each notch.

I agree, it is a flawed scale. I mean, it's pretty much impossible to make a perfect scale to measure the power levels of all fictional characters ever, but they could have at least made the scale no contradict itself directly.