PDA

View Full Version : Spells known vs spells I can use



raistlin807
2008-02-10, 08:55 PM
Ok, I recently had a conflict of views with my DM; I'm building a Wizard toward the Incantrix PrC and In doing so I plan to focus in Divination and drop Evocation. However, there are some good higher level spells that I don't want to loose by banning too early. My question; can I buy a scroll of a spell I'm not high enough level to use, scribe it into my spell book and just keep it till I am high enough level to cast it?

seedjar
2008-02-10, 09:02 PM
If you ban a school, I'm pretty sure it means that it's banned, as in you can no longer cast from it. Having it in your spellbook doesn't do you any good. Although I may not understand your question.
~Joe

BRC
2008-02-10, 09:09 PM
Banning a school means you cannot cast it, a mages book is theoretically no different from, say a cookbook. The difference is that one tells you how to make soup, and one tells you how to manipulate the universe with your mind and some funny hand gestures. There is nothing physically special about what is written in a spell book, it's just marks on paper with ink. It's the casting that becomes special, and since youve banned some schools, you can't cast from them.

sikyon
2008-02-10, 09:24 PM
Ok, I recently had a conflict of views with my DM; I'm building a Wizard toward the Incantrix PrC and In doing so I plan to focus in Divination and drop Evocation. However, there are some good higher level spells that I don't want to loose by banning too early. My question; can I buy a scroll of a spell I'm not high enough level to use, scribe it into my spell book and just keep it till I am high enough level to cast it?

Nope. You're going to need Shadow Evocation for the most part, and anything higher... well, there's always UMD.

Citizen Jenkins
2008-02-10, 09:25 PM
First,
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803

Note the section in School Specialization where it says:
"She can still use the prohibited spells she knew prior to becoming an incantatrix, including using items that are activated by spell completion or spell trigger."

I'm presuming this is what you're referring to.

Without getting into RAW, I'd say you're completely violating RAI and the obvious intent of the writers. Extending your idea, one could simply scribe every worthwhile Evocation spell into their book before specializing and therefore avoid the cost of specializing while keeping all the Incantatrixes already impressive bonuses. Sure, it would cost a lot of money to get all those scrolls but in the long run those spells would be more than worth it, especially spells like Contingency. So no matter what it says RAW, I would say your DM is being entirely reasonable to say that you couldn't.

RTGoodman
2008-02-10, 09:28 PM
As far as scribing into a spellbook, it doesn't mention that you have to be high enough level to cast it - you just sort of have it written out in your spellbook, but can't use it. (Rules on copying into a spellbook found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook). )

Seems sort of cheesy to me, though.

EDIT: Didn't know about Incantatrix and banning schools - I'm not sure if that affects anything though.

valadil
2008-02-10, 09:57 PM
By RAW, yes you can do that. If I were DM I'd impose a limit on how many spells could be kept in such a manner. No, there's no reason for it in the rules, but you shouldn't be able to negate the class's disadvantage with your gold.

raistlin807
2008-02-10, 10:36 PM
With regard to the cheese...I know its dodgy but I really don't want to give up contingency. And it's not posible to scribe spells into your spell book before specializing, as you aren't even a wizard untill after you start at 1st level. I know all about the mechanics of the game and how specialization works, this is not my first wizard, but it is my first batman. So as far as we know there is no rule directly prohibiting me from 'learning' spells I can't cast yet?

Khanderas
2008-02-11, 10:21 AM
Seeing how banning a school prevents you from casting, not scribing / learning it, it should not matter weather you got it scribed in your spellbook or not. Once you ban Evocation spells of that school is no longer available to you.

Perhaps there are fancy words in the deciption of Incantrix or somewhere else that lets you interpret it as you can, but the point of banning is that it is a limiting factor, that you get some bonus elsewhere for picking up.

sikyon
2008-02-11, 10:36 AM
By RAW, yes you can do that. If I were DM I'd impose a limit on how many spells could be kept in such a manner. No, there's no reason for it in the rules, but you shouldn't be able to negate the class's disadvantage with your gold.


With regard to the cheese...I know its dodgy but I really don't want to give up contingency. And it's not posible to scribe spells into your spell book before specializing, as you aren't even a wizard untill after you start at 1st level. I know all about the mechanics of the game and how specialization works, this is not my first wizard, but it is my first batman. So as far as we know there is no rule directly prohibiting me from 'learning' spells I can't cast yet?




Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

Doesn't matter if you know the spells, you cannot cast them, or even use items with them. You can learn them, but you still can't cast them.

If you ban Evocation don't ban Illusion, because Illusion gives you greater shadow evocation which you can use for the good Evocation spells like Contingency and forcecage.

kamikasei
2008-02-11, 10:38 AM
Doesn't matter if you know the spells, you cannot cast them, or even use items with them. You can learn them, but you still can't cast them.

It seems to be something slightly different to normal wizard specialization:


First,
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803

Note the section in School Specialization where it says:
"She can still use the prohibited spells she knew prior to becoming an incantatrix, including using items that are activated by spell completion or spell trigger."

sikyon
2008-02-11, 11:46 AM
It seems to be something slightly different to normal wizard specialization:


I'm building a Wizard toward the Incantrix PrC and In doing so I plan to focus in Divination and drop Evocation.

If had a nonspecilized wizard who dropped evocation and specilized in Abjuration when he took incantrix, he could do this. However, he is planning on starting off by specilizing divination and dropping evocation. The Incantrix allowance on being able to use prohibited school spells only applies to the school dropped as a result of taking Incantrix, not one that you dropped when you became a wizard.

Edit: I'm also not sure what "learning" a spell for a wizard means. You can't "learn" a spell unless you have int - 10 = spell level, but other than that it doesn't specify much. It also says that you can know any number of spells. It also says that you cannot prepare a spell unless it is in your spellbook.

Does not give a definition of "learn".

Neek
2008-02-11, 12:03 PM
I believe "learn" is implied when you a). gain two spells to add to your spell book each level, b). copy them into your spell book from a scroll or another spell book. I would take it then that learning a spell is incorporating it into your spell book and being able to cast it once it's in there.

The Incantrix class states that you cannot "learn" spells of that school anymore, but it does not cause you to "unlearn" spells that you had before you took the PrC.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-11, 12:18 PM
There's always Diversified Casting (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Diversified_Casting,all) or Spell Reprieve (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Spell_Reprieve,all)/Item Reprieve (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Item_Reprieve,all).

kamikasei
2008-02-11, 12:18 PM
If had a nonspecilized wizard who dropped evocation and specilized in Abjuration when he took incantrix, he could do this. However, he is planning on starting off by specilizing divination and dropping evocation. The Incantrix allowance on being able to use prohibited school spells only applies to the school dropped as a result of taking Incantrix, not one that you dropped when you became a wizard.

Based on his later post, and the fact that he's talking about scribing these spells into his spellbook at some point before dropping the school, I gather he is in fact referring to dropping Evocation on entering Incantrix. Perhaps he can settle the question himself.

sikyon
2008-02-11, 01:14 PM
Based on his later post, and the fact that he's talking about scribing these spells into his spellbook at some point before dropping the school, I gather he is in fact referring to dropping Evocation on entering Incantrix. Perhaps he can settle the question himself.

Yes, but that conflicts with his idea of specializing divination and dropping evocation, which he can only do at level 1, and can only specialize abjuration on Incantrix.


I believe "learn" is implied when you a). gain two spells to add to your spell book each level, b). copy them into your spell book from a scroll or another spell book. I would take it then that learning a spell is incorporating it into your spell book and being able to cast it once it's in there.

The Incantrix class states that you cannot "learn" spells of that school anymore, but it does not cause you to "unlearn" spells that you had before you took the PrC.

So what happens, if, say, you get a new spellbook with spells already in it?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-11, 01:55 PM
So what happens, if, say, you get a new spellbook with spells already in it?

Wizards do not learn spells just from getting a book with these spells.
You have to go through the same motions of learning and copying the new spells to your own spellbook.
You can only prepare spells you already know directly from another spellbook.

sikyon
2008-02-11, 02:11 PM
Wizards do not learn spells just from getting a book with these spells.
You have to go through the same motions of learning and copying the new spells to your own spellbook.
You can only prepare spells you already know directly from another spellbook.

Source please?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-11, 02:18 PM
Source please?

Page 177-179 in the PHB or under the Magic Overview section of the SRD, Arcane Spells.


Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks

A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured.

sikyon
2008-02-11, 02:50 PM
Page 177-179 in the PHB or under the Magic Overview section of the SRD, Arcane Spells.

Ah, thanks.

raistlin807
2008-02-11, 03:46 PM
Sorry for adding all the confusion. I do intend to drop Evocation when specializing in Abjuration for the Incantrix. The wording of the class in Magic of Faerun leaves some doubt as to how many schools of magic one actually has to drop to take the class. I started out as an Grey Elf Generalist with Spellcasting Prodigy, effective Int 22 (20 natural due to 18 + 2 for elf) The rules are unclear if I can know a spell but not cast it....as well as if Greater Shadow Evocation will even let me use Contingency and Force Cage, which is why I want to buy the scrolls at a lower level, scribe them in my spell book and gaurantee access to them once I ban Evocation, as per the rules of the Incantrix class (that still lets me cast spells I knew before adding the PrC restrictions)

sikyon
2008-02-11, 04:09 PM
Sorry for adding all the confusion. I do intend to drop Evocation when specializing in Abjuration for the Incantrix. The wording of the class in Magic of Faerun leaves some doubt as to how many schools of magic one actually has to drop to take the class. I started out as an Grey Elf Generalist with Spellcasting Prodigy, effective Int 22 (20 natural due to 18 + 2 for elf) The rules are unclear if I can know a spell but not cast it....as well as if Greater Shadow Evocation will even let me use Contingency and Force Cage, which is why I want to buy the scrolls at a lower level, scribe them in my spell book and gaurantee access to them once I ban Evocation, as per the rules of the Incantrix class (that still lets me cast spells I knew before adding the PrC restrictions)

I think by RAW you can do this. DM might not be so happy, though.

Greater Shadow Evocation will let you use contingency and force cage. You can choose to fail your will save for contingency as long as it only affects you, and a forcecage target gets a will save for disbelief. However, notice that using Greater Shadow Evocation does not require a material cost, so you get around the 1.5k GP per casting of forcecage.

Jacob Orlove
2008-02-11, 04:14 PM
Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

There's no requirement anywhere that you be high enough level to cast the spell in question, so you should be able to add higher level spells to your book in advance of barring the school. That's completely fair, actually, as adding a high level spell is really expensive, especially if the DM makes you purchase a scroll, instead of having a convenient NPC spellbook on hand. That'd be 2,250 gp just to add Contingency to your spellbook, which is a substantial fraction of your wealth at the levels before you have actual access to 6th level spells. There's absolutely no way to add more than 1-2 such spells to your spellbook without giving up magic items that you need.

raistlin807
2008-02-11, 04:33 PM
True, but my DM is notorious for giving low gold and few magical items. Our charachters survive based solely on how efficient we can make them.

Worira
2008-02-11, 06:59 PM
I don't think, RAW, wizards have spells known, or at least what counts as a known spell is never defined. The only time it's mentioned for wizards is "Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. ". The method of "knowing" spells is never specified, only of adding them to spellbooks, preparing them, and casting them. Otherwise, spells known only refers to spontaneous casters.

So, I don't think you actually get to keep any spells from the school you drop when you go incantatrix as a wizard. Now stop arguing with your DM, he's doing you a favour letting you keep any.

sikyon
2008-02-11, 07:35 PM
I don't think, RAW, wizards have spells known, or at least what counts as a known spell is never defined. The only time it's mentioned for wizards is "Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. ". The method of "knowing" spells is never specified, only of adding them to spellbooks, preparing them, and casting them. Otherwise, spells known only refers to spontaneous casters.

So, I don't think you actually get to keep any spells from the school you drop when you go incantatrix as a wizard. Now stop arguing with your DM, he's doing you a favour letting you keep any.

Actually, it does give evidence to what "knowing" them is under arcane magic, which Silvanos helped us out with. Known spells are the spells you've learned, and the spells you've learned are the ones that you've scribed into a spellbook.

raistlin807
2008-02-11, 09:45 PM
Actually the Incantrix class specifically states that you retain the ability to cast all spells you knew before you specialized for the PrC. I'm not arguing with my DM, I just wanted to know what the actual rules were.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-11, 10:44 PM
With regard to the cheese...I know its dodgy but I really don't want to give up contingency. And it's not posible to scribe spells into your spell book before specializing, as you aren't even a wizard untill after you start at 1st level. I know all about the mechanics of the game and how specialization works, this is not my first wizard, but it is my first batman. So as far as we know there is no rule directly prohibiting me from 'learning' spells I can't cast yet?

Can the PC cast the spell before entering the PRC? No so he really doesn't "know" the spell if he is incapable of casting it although he may comprehend it enough to transcribe it correctly from one medium to another.

Of course with Transparency there is always the option of using Limited Wish to emulate Psychic Reformation which might do the trick.

raistlin807
2008-02-11, 11:57 PM
That sounds odd enough to be munchkin worthy. What exactly does that power do?

sikyon
2008-02-12, 10:27 AM
Can the PC cast the spell before entering the PRC? No so he really doesn't "know" the spell if he is incapable of casting it although he may comprehend it enough to transcribe it correctly from one medium to another.

Of course with Transparency there is always the option of using Limited Wish to emulate Psychic Reformation which might do the trick.

Actually that is specifically "preparing" the spell. Knowing it is just having learned it. Learning it is having made all the checks required to begin transcribing it in your own textbook, but you don't actually have to do that to know it.

Kesnit
2008-02-12, 11:51 AM
Here's another way to avoid all issues...

Wait to take the PrC until you can cast 6th level spells (LVL 11). Learn Contingency as a Wizard. Take Incantrix at LVL 12.

raistlin807
2008-02-12, 02:07 PM
Well yeah, that's obvious. The idea here was find out how I could do it earlier.

spotmarkedx
2008-02-13, 09:47 AM
Of course with Transparency there is always the option of using Limited Wish to emulate Psychic Reformation which might do the trick.Here is the text from the d20srd:Psychic Reformation
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psion/wilder 4
Display: Auditory, mental, and visual
Manifesting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 7, XP; see text

When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level.

The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones.

The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below). The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills.

XP Cost
This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly.
So even if the OP uses limited wish to emulate this power, we're still looking at the OP being banned in Evocation at the time they first get access to 6th level spells and therefore unable to learn Contingency. Unless you use this to backtrack to when you started Incantatrix, change what schools you chose to be banned in, learn the two or three spells you want, then cast the limited wish/reformation spell again and re-ban yourself in evocation. Assuming psionics is in your campaign. And magic/psy transparancy exists in your campaign. And also the text of the power only talks about: skills, feats, and "powers it acquired when advancing to its current level", which I would read as being the equivalent of spells, myself. You would have to have a DM that assumes the "powers" isn't talking about psychic powers (i.e. spells), and is instead talking about class powers and restrictions.

And 95% of DMs will still find some way to either smack you down for doing this or just say "No. Rule zero." Including myself, if I were running this game. Seeing as you are in one of the most, if not the most, powerful class in the game, and you are choosing one of the more powerful prestige class (made for 3.0 as well, mind you), which has a minor disadvantage of losing two schools of magic due to forced specialization in abjuration (note that you must specialize in abjuration).... Also seeing that you are looking to lose what is considered the weakest school of magic that can have most of its spells emulated by an illusion spell, and a fair number others emulated by limited wish/wish if you don't mind the XP cost... I'm pretty sure I, as a DM here, would step on any method of open-to-interpretation rules that get the spells (such as contingency, say) into your spell grimoire.

Keep in mind that all of the methods listed in this thread, aside from the idea of waiting until you are 12th level to start the PrC, all require a permissive DM, or one that you can successfully fast-talk. You run a major risk of causing friction with your DM if you try to use these methods, especially if they later come to realize exactly how shaky these rules interpretations are. Is having contingency as a 6th level spell instead of an 8th (as shadow evocation, naturally) really worth that friction?