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RTGoodman
2008-02-11, 02:09 AM
In the last couple of months, I've gotten into the Dragonlance campaign setting, and I want to run a campaign in the setting at some point soon. I picked up the Campaign Setting book (I think it's 3.5, but it might be 3.0 - either way, that's fine), but I've run into one problem - it doesn't really seem to talk a lot about the time immediately before and during the War of the Lance, which is the era I'd like to play in.

For instance - the top two orders of the Knights of Solamnia require divine spellcasting (if I remember correctly), and I'm relatively sure that the head Knights during the War and before weren't able to cast spells (what with the gods being gone and whatnot). Is there someway around this? Or do I need to redo the PrCs as non-casters (since I'd like to keep them as PrCs instead of just titles)?

Furthermore, most of the information on the world, deities, and stuff like that is based on a much later time period, especially since it mentions that Takhisis and Paladine are both dead (something I haven't even gotten to in the novels yet). Is there some sort of sourcebook about just the War of the Lance era that isn't a module? Preferably 3.x, since I don't know anything about previous editions.

Also, the Campaign Setting puts some pretty harsh restrictions on Wizards of High Sorcery as far as in which schools you must specialize in order to be a member (and not being a member is pretty dangerous anyway, right?). Would there be anything unbalancing about just removing the set schools (though White Robes probably couldn't specialize in Necromancy)? If not, I guess I'll just eliminate that PrC and make it a fluff-based description, but they still have to (either through roleplaying or in the background) take the Test.

Finally, a couple of questions about Kender. *Disregards groans from the anti-Kender camp.* I had a DM a while back that said there were rules in 2E for the stuff that might "fall into" a Kender PC's pouches. Something like, each session the DM took everyone's character sheet, picked a couple of items, and those were what has "fallen in." Then, if anyone needed them that session, they had to figure out where the items were (i.e., with the Kender), and get them back. Does anyone know if this is official, or if it was a homebrew thing? Seems pretty cool, if only to cement the flavor of Kender for my possible players that aren't as familiar with the setting.

Also, I seem to remember a while ago someone mentioning a Kender "Handler," and they made it sound like a PrC. Is that correct, or is that just a word for Kender Rogues as the DCS seems to indicate? If it's not, I may homebrew a Master Handler PrC, but I'd like to find one before making my own.


As an aside, what else should I look for to run a good game set during the War of the Lance era (other than the actual War of the Lance module, since I don't want to run that)? I've read throught the Chronicles and Legends trilogies, The Second Generation, and most of Dragons of Summer Flame (I'll probably finish it this week), as well as a couple of short stories from some compilations I picked up at a used bookstore. Any other ideas?

Thanks for any help!

de-trick
2008-02-11, 02:24 AM
1)I belive during that time there were no new knights in the order, and order was corupted so it was sort of disbanded

2)I am pretty sure paladine is in the back somewhere

3)Its a homebrew class the handler and that was a house rule

the class is right here
http://www.kencyclopedia.com/kender/classes/TavinsHandler.cfm

crimson77
2008-02-11, 02:29 AM
I would suggest picking up the 2e boxed set (tales of the lance) because if memory serves me right it answered some of your questions. You can get it for $4 from Pazio (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/aDAndD2/dragonlance)

Check your used bookstore for the 1st edition dragonlance book. I would recommend it but it is fairly rare and you will not be able to find it in a pdf.

I would also just play with the information that you have and ad lib the rest. Your players will not know the difference and even if they are dragonlance fans and you make a mistake they (hopefully) will forgive you. One cannot know everything about the War of the Lance.

Corolinth
2008-02-11, 03:38 AM
I don't think any of the second generation stuff, or Dragons of Summer Flame will help much with running a game during the War of the Lance.

The school restrictions on the Wizard of High Sorcery classes are in place for a reason. The different orders teach different spells. That's just part of the world. Each different order's spellcasting is tied to one of the three moons (and you'll need to keep track of the phases of each). That's just how magic works on Kryn. If you do away with the school restrictions, you really aren't running a Dragonlance game anymore. Dragonlance is a very good setting for controlling the power of clerics and wizards, though.

The Knights of Solamnia can be done, but it requires some tweaking. The third edition rules for Dragonlance were written with later era campaigns in mind. There were new knights throughout the post-Cataclysm era, there had to have been because the Cataclysm was three hundred years prior to the War of the Lance and there were still Knights of Solamnia. Originally, the Knight of the Crown replaced the paladin. There were no paladins in Dragonlance, and Knights of the Crown did not get spells. I think the Knight of the Sword did, but only very late in its progression (and only after Paladine returned). I'm not sure how earlier editions handled advancing through the ranks without prestige classes, as I don't have any of the books. Simply put, though, if you want to run a Knight of Solamnia prior to the return of Paladine you simply drop their spells, any other abilities that stem from the gods. They're going to be a lot like fighters until the people of Krynn rediscover the true gods. Bear in mind, though, that over the course of the campaign, the gods should come back.

RTGoodman
2008-02-11, 08:11 AM
I don't think any of the second generation stuff, or Dragons of Summer Flame will help much with running a game during the War of the Lance.

Yeah, but I'm a bit of a literary completist, and I figured I'd at least read the major novels by Weis and Hickman. I'm a little more dubious of the stuff by other authors, but if I'm interested I might check out some other stuff, if it's about the time I'm interested in.


The school restrictions on the Wizard of High Sorcery classes are in place for a reason. The different orders teach different spells. That's just part of the world. Each different order's spellcasting is tied to one of the three moons (and you'll need to keep track of the phases of each). That's just how magic works on Kryn. If you do away with the school restrictions, you really aren't running a Dragonlance game anymore. Dragonlance is a very good setting for controlling the power of clerics and wizards, though.

I figured so, but I wasn't sure. From what I've read, I haven't gotten much about the arcane magic in Krynn (though I do have an old book published back in the TSR days called "Magic of Krynn" that I haven't read yet), and most of what I have is more along the lines of 'There are three schools that are philosophically different, you should belong to one so you're not a renegade, the magic is tied to moons, and you all get together in your tower to administer tests and run all the arcane magic in the world.' I guess I'll try to read up more on the magic; the PrC for Wizards of High Sorcery isn't that bad, it just seemed weird from what (little) I know about the arcane magic.


The Knights of Solamnia can be done, but it requires some tweaking. The third edition rules for Dragonlance were written with later era campaigns in mind. There were new knights throughout the post-Cataclysm era, there had to have been because the Cataclysm was three hundred years prior to the War of the Lance and there were still Knights of Solamnia. Originally, the Knight of the Crown replaced the paladin. There were no paladins in Dragonlance, and Knights of the Crown did not get spells. I think the Knight of the Sword did, but only very late in its progression (and only after Paladine returned). I'm not sure how earlier editions handled advancing through the ranks without prestige classes, as I don't have any of the books. Simply put, though, if you want to run a Knight of Solamnia prior to the return of Paladine you simply drop their spells, any other abilities that stem from the gods. They're going to be a lot like fighters until the people of Krynn rediscover the true gods.

Yeah, that's what I thought - I knew there were new knights, but they couldn't cast spells, so according to the 3.x rules, they couldn't even join their own order! I was thinking of just using one of the various spell-less Paladin variants (probably the CCh one that gives Fighter bonus feats), but I thought there might be a better way. Actually, I thought the Knight class (PHB2) could work, and then as the gods come back the player can grab a level or two of Cleric if they want and take the Prestige Paladin from UA.


Bear in mind, though, that over the course of the campaign, the gods should come back.

That was the plan. I'm probably going to have them start adventuring a little before the War in order to "seek out the true gods" or something like that. Eventually they're gonna run into some draconians or something, and probably pick up a Blue Crystal Staff-esque artifact to handle the healing of the party until the gods do come back (i.e., after a few levels). Then they'll probably be doing stuff to aid in the war effort, but not on the scale of the actual Heroes of the Lance.

Oh, and thanks for that link, de-trick. It seems a little weak (a Rogue, but with no sneak attack and only a decent-but-not-game-breaking ability!), but I might allow it. If not, I was thinking of making a 3- or 5-level PrC that just got the Handling mechanic and maybe a bonus to Sleight of Hand and such, and I may just be able to steal that mechanic.


Here's another question - I know in some places there are mentions of Druids. Is this the standard wildshape/animal companion/spellcasting Druid, or is it just a word for "nature healer guy?" I don't think I'll have a player who wants to play one, but just in case, do they actually exist and/or get spells in the WotL era?

ErrantX
2008-02-11, 09:27 AM
There are several other books you may wish to look for in the situations you're presenting.

Sovereign books released a War of the Lance supplement, as well as a Knightly Orders of Krynn and Towers of High Sorcery books.

The ToHS book basically had an option rule for those not enjoying the idea of specialist wizards that you could enter the WoHS PrC as a generalist wizard, you just wouldn't get the (questionable) benefit of the Enhanced Specialization class feature. Knightly Orders also had spell-less Knights of Solamnia PrCs as well.

War of the Lance should provide you with all the additional information you need, as well as the Dragon Highlord PrC.

Also look into the Bestiary of Krynn as it will have a bunch of setting specific monsters.

Go go eBay for the win! :P
-X

P.S. Druids in Krynn have like, almost never been detailed. I'd say go with standard 3.5 after the return of the gods, before then, druids are spell-less Rangers.

Kesnit
2008-02-11, 09:35 AM
Druids: Until the return of the gods, they were just natural healers.

Kender and their packs: Amusing. I've done similar things with my Kender Rogue (with the DM's permission). The DM doesn't take things. Instead, I just pick them up as I feel like it. :smallbiggrin: The players all know I'm doing it (and what I've taken) and if they have a problem with it, I retro it OOC so that it never actually happened. (So far that has never happened, although the guy playing the Druid rolled his eyes when I "borrowed" his scroll of lost Druid lore.)

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-11, 10:26 AM
There are several other books you may wish to look for in the situations you're presenting.

Sovereign books released a War of the Lance supplement, as well as a Knightly Orders of Krynn and Towers of High Sorcery books.

The ToHS book basically had an option rule for those not enjoying the idea of specialist wizards that you could enter the WoHS PrC as a generalist wizard, you just wouldn't get the (questionable) benefit of the Enhanced Specialization class feature. Knightly Orders also had spell-less Knights of Solamnia PrCs as well.

War of the Lance should provide you with all the additional information you need, as well as the Dragon Highlord PrC.

Also look into the Bestiary of Krynn as it will have a bunch of setting specific monsters.

Go go eBay for the win! :P
-X

Well, that's what I was going to say. I love the WotL setting book, it has awesome stuff like the Master class, and the Gnomish Tinkerer PrC as well as the Kender PrC.

hamlet
2008-02-11, 10:48 AM
If you want to run a good, cogent campaign, then I suggest the following guidlines:

1) Ignore all source material post Test of the Twins. You don't need it and it almost invariably sank out loud. In fact, most everything that wasn't strictly about the War of the Lance and the War of the Twins (what came out of the Legends books) really was terrible. In fact, ignore entirely the third edition setting material and get yourself a copy of the Dragonlance Adventures hadback from NobleKnight Games or some similar place.

In fact, there's a copy of the DragonLance Adventures book on sale for under $15 from NobleKnight right here: http://www.nobleknight.com/ProductDetail.asp_Q_ProductID_E_290_A_InventoryID_ E_2147457228_A_ProductLineID_E_2137419061_A_Manufa cturerID_E_1_A_CategoryID_E_12_A_GenreID_E_

2) Though it goes against the grain for most 3.x players, and I can't stress this highly enough, IGNORE all class and prestige class info in the 3.0 setting book. You don't need it. Furthermore, it's cruddy.

You don't need a special prestige class to be a Wizard of the Tower of High Sorcery. That's a role playing distinction, and NOT a mechanical one. You don't need a prestige class to be a Knight of X. In fact, you don't need the sorcerer, so just cross that off right there. You can probably cross of the "barbarian" class too since it doesn't really fit with the setting.

If you feel the need to give out crunchy bits for belonging to an in game order, go ahead and do so (I've done it), but don't make it a unique class.

3) Wizards of the Towers of High Sorcery are wizards. In order to attain true entry in the orders, they must first live till third level, then they must pass the test. I see no reason at all not to actually play out the test in game since it makes for a fabulous character building couple of sessions that the rest of the players can be involved in too.

The only mechanical difference between a wizard of the order and a renegade is that the wizard of the order has a support structure that he can draw upon in terms of shelter, training, and magic items. That should be more than enough. That, and the fact that he won't be shot on sight as a matter of course by those members in good standing.

4) Knights of Solamnia: these are a bit tricky since all of your gamer instincts tell you that the separate orders with unique abilities. There are two solutions to removing the prestige classes.

a) There are no class requirements to join the Knighthood as it is a martial and social organization rather than a class organization. Any idiot can join the order (and in fact, there are cannonical instances of Wizards and Rougues having been inducted into the order) and will serve as their own abilities dictate.

The Knights of the Crown are a primarily martial order and most attractive to fighters, but also to any character that focuses their abilities on battle field applications. Knights of the Sword are a semi-contemplitive, religious order and are thus most attractive to clerics, paladins, and (oddly enough) wizards. They still thump skulls with the best of them, but their work is focused more on theological and theoretical matters. Knights of the Rose are the leaders of the Solamnic Knights. Paladins and fighters gravitate towards this order, but not always.

b) Each order is not actually a prestige class, but membership is open to a separate class, with some modification.

Knights of the Rose are either Fighters or Paladins (or clerics on their way to Sword Knight status).

Knights of the Sword are Clerics (or fighters or Paladins on their way to Rose Knight status) who, as part of initiation into the order, "trade in" their "turn undead" abilities for a fighter's attack progression (don't even really need to do this, but it does fit the flavor a little closer).

Knights of the Rose are fighters or paladins that have advanced through the orders to this level of leadership and prestige. If they don't already have it as a class feature, members of this order gain immunity to fear (within reason) and (for third edition) the "leadership" feat. I'd also say that they will gain, if not their own stronghold, at least stewardship of a semi-important stronghold somewhere in Solamnia. Most definately NOT the High Clerist's Tower or anything comparable, but a commonly frequented outpost or waypoint used by knights in their business throughout the realm.

5) Again, though it goes against the grain, assign restrictions by race on certain classes. Dwarves don't become Knights, wizards, or Paladins. It just isn't in their culture. Kender, 99% of the time, don't become Clerics. They just don't have it in them with their little ADHD minds. Draconians, in this time period, most certainly cannot belong to the Knights of Solamnia (and I'd say they never would be able to since they are inherently evil in their creation).

This is not some strange throwback to AD&D, but reflective of cultural realities within the Dragonlance world. Some races just don't do certain things, end of discussion.

RTGoodman
2008-02-11, 02:56 PM
Thanks for the info on the Sovereign Press Dragonlance books - now that I think about it, I actually remember seeing their War of the Lance sourcebook a couple of years back, but I just assumed it was some adventure module and never looked at it. (This, of course, was way before I knew anything about Dragonlance anyway.) I haven't seen the Knights or Wizards book you mentioned, but I'll poke around the internet and see about procuring them.

Hamlet, you make some good suggestions, but I don't think most of it would go over well with my gaming group. They don't get that you can call yourself something without having levels in it - if you're a Paladin, you call yourself a Paladin, and no one else is allowed to unless they take a level in the class. So, leaving the PrCs out completely probably wouldn't work that well with them, and thus I'll probably leave those in. Racial restrictions, though, are something I'd thought of before, and I'm sure no one will mind that.

For the Wizards of High Sorcery versus the renegades, I had a bigger roleplaying distinction than you mentioned - specifically, the common folk may grudgingly accept a White Robe or maybe ever Red Robe, and they might fear a Black Robe enough to leave him alone, but a renegade, one who dabbles in the arcane with no semblance of order or discipline might be seen as worse than a Black Robe and as someone who needs to be run out of a town immediately.

Wagadodo
2008-02-11, 03:19 PM
http://www.dragonlance.com/

There is your best your best bet to find out all things dragonlance. I would suggest the War of the Lance supplement if that is the era you want to play. It has some interesting base classes and allows some identification of what to do for the Spell Less Knights. And remember the Prc is optional to be a Knight, not required. I would also look at the Knightly Orders Source book. The Prc's in those books trump the one in the campaign setting.

You might also consider looking at the adventure they have out, called the Key of Destiny. I think of the best adventures I have ever run.

hamlet
2008-02-12, 08:35 AM
Hamlet, you make some good suggestions, but I don't think most of it would go over well with my gaming group. They don't get that you can call yourself something without having levels in it - if you're a Paladin, you call yourself a Paladin, and no one else is allowed to unless they take a level in the class. So, leaving the PrCs out completely probably wouldn't work that well with them, and thus I'll probably leave those in. Racial restrictions, though, are something I'd thought of before, and I'm sure no one will mind that.



Which is kind of a shame in a way IMO, but something that I've grown to expect with current system think. Call me nostalgic, but I yearn for the days when an assassin was just somebody that killed others for cash. It didn't need to be a separate class in first edition either.


For the Wizards of High Sorcery versus the renegades, I had a bigger roleplaying distinction than you mentioned - specifically, the common folk may grudgingly accept a White Robe or maybe ever Red Robe, and they might fear a Black Robe enough to leave him alone, but a renegade, one who dabbles in the arcane with no semblance of order or discipline might be seen as worse than a Black Robe and as someone who needs to be run out of a town immediately

You've cited the exact issue I was trying to encourage, that there's a big in game roleplaying difference between all four groups you mentioned, but that mechanically, they are essentially identical. No need for separate classes.

BadJuJu
2008-02-12, 09:35 AM
In the last couple of months, I've gotten into the Dragonlance campaign setting, and I want to run a campaign in the setting at some point soon. I picked up the Campaign Setting book (I think it's 3.5, but it might be 3.0 - either way, that's fine), but I've run into one problem - it doesn't really seem to talk a lot about the time immediately before and during the War of the Lance, which is the era I'd like to play in.

For instance - the top two orders of the Knights of Solamnia require divine spellcasting (if I remember correctly), and I'm relatively sure that the head Knights during the War and before weren't able to cast spells (what with the gods being gone and whatnot). Is there someway around this? Or do I need to redo the PrCs as non-casters (since I'd like to keep them as PrCs instead of just titles)?
Furthermore, most of the information on the world, deities, and stuff like that is based on a much later time period, especially since it mentions that Takhisis and Paladine are both dead (something I haven't even gotten to in the novels yet). Is there some sort of sourcebook about just the War of the Lance era that isn't a module? Preferably 3.x, since I don't know anything about previous editions.

Also, the Campaign Setting puts some pretty harsh restrictions on Wizards of High Sorcery as far as in which schools you must specialize in order to be a member (and not being a member is pretty dangerous anyway, right?). Would there be anything unbalancing about just removing the set schools (though White Robes probably couldn't specialize in Necromancy)? If not, I guess I'll just eliminate that PrC and make it a fluff-based description, but they still have to (either through roleplaying or in the background) take the Test.

Finally, a couple of questions about Kender. *Disregards groans from the anti-Kender camp.* I had a DM a while back that said there were rules in 2E for the stuff that might "fall into" a Kender PC's pouches. Something like, each session the DM took everyone's character sheet, picked a couple of items, and those were what has "fallen in." Then, if anyone needed them that session, they had to figure out where the items were (i.e., with the Kender), and get them back. Does anyone know if this is official, or if it was a homebrew thing? Seems pretty cool, if only to cement the flavor of Kender for my possible players that aren't as familiar with the setting.

Also, I seem to remember a while ago someone mentioning a Kender "Handler," and they made it sound like a PrC. Is that correct, or is that just a word for Kender Rogues as the DCS seems to indicate? If it's not, I may homebrew a Master Handler PrC, but I'd like to find one before making my own.


As an aside, what else should I look for to run a good game set during the War of the Lance era (other than the actual War of the Lance module, since I don't want to run that)? I've read throught the Chronicles and Legends trilogies, The Second Generation, and most of Dragons of Summer Flame (I'll probably finish it this week), as well as a couple of short stories from some compilations I picked up at a used bookstore. Any other ideas?

Thanks for any help!

They released a book called War of the Lance. It has alternatives to spellcasting Knights.

Kurobara
2008-02-12, 06:06 PM
3)Its a homebrew class the handler and that was a house rule

Actually, a couple of the things in this thread got me looking at some Dragonlance stuff, and I happened to stumble across an official Handler PrC and a pouch contents table in Races of Ansalon. (PrC is pgs. 156-159, pouch contents are a series of tables (y'know, the sort of "00 means you re-roll on the next, more awesome table" series of tables) is pgs. 159-161.

Sleet
2008-02-17, 02:16 PM
In the last couple of months, I've gotten into the Dragonlance campaign setting, and I want to run a campaign in the setting at some point soon. I picked up the Campaign Setting book (I think it's 3.5, but it might be 3.0 - either way, that's fine), but I've run into one problem - it doesn't really seem to talk a lot about the time immediately before and during the War of the Lance, which is the era I'd like to play in.

Looks like you want this: War of the Lance (http://www.dragonlance.com/products/SVP-4002.aspx).


Or do I need to redo the (Knights of Solamnia) PrCs as non-casters (since I'd like to keep them as PrCs instead of just titles)?

Not at all. Here's one option: the War of the Lance supplement (linked above) has a revision of the classes to work better in that era. A second option is to simply ignore the spellcasting requirements/components of the class - the Rose Knight PrC is pretty darn powerful even without it.


Furthermore, most of the information on the world, deities, and stuff like that is based on a much later time period, especially since it mentions that Takhisis and Paladine are both dead (something I haven't even gotten to in the novels yet). Is there some sort of sourcebook about just the War of the Lance era that isn't a module? Preferably 3.x, since I don't know anything about previous editions.

This (War of the Lance (http://www.dragonlance.com/products/SVP-4002.aspx)) is exactly what you want. You can order it straight from Margaret Weis Productions or from any of a bunch of other online retailers.


Would there be anything unbalancing about just removing the set schools (though White Robes probably couldn't specialize in Necromancy)?

Not at all, in fact a later supplement that revises the class does exactly that. (They allow you to more deeply specialize in certain schools - abjuration and divination for white robes, illusion and transmutation for red robes, and necromancy and enchantment for black robes) but it's not required - by the rules, you can in fact have a white robe necromancer. You'll just get strange looks from your comrades. :smallsmile:

Note that Wizards of High Sorcery are NOT required to take that class - if a wizard takes and passes the test, that's enough.


Finally, a couple of questions about Kender. *Disregards groans from the anti-Kender camp.* I had a DM a while back that said there were rules in 2E for the stuff that might "fall into" a Kender PC's pouches.

The Handler PrC is in the War of the Lance supplement mentioned above, and both that and a "Kender Pouch Grab" are part of Races of Ansalon (http://www.dragonlance.com/products/SVP-4404.aspx).

All these supplements are for D&D 3.5.

Sleet
2008-02-17, 02:28 PM
And remember the Prc is optional to be a Knight, not required.

That's an extremely important point. The official stats for Derek Crownguard (famous Knight of Solamnia from the Chronicles trilogy), for instance, has no ranks of any Knight PrC.


I would also look at the Knightly Orders Source book. The Prc's in those books trump the one in the campaign setting.

I'd certainly recommend using those rather than the ones in the DLCS, but any set of PrCs will work just fine.

RTGoodman
2008-02-17, 02:44 PM
Wow - I had completely forgotten about this thread... :smallredface:


I managed to get a copy of the War of the Lance sourcebook, and it is indeed all I could have asked for. I'll have to check on this Races of Ansalon book that Kurobara mentioned (if I can find it cheap) since the Pouch Contents table sounds neat. The WotL book has a Handler PrC, and it seems good enough for me, but if I get Races I'll see if it's different.

@Sleet: Yeah, I'm not going to force players to take the Knight PrCs if they want to join - basically, it's just so there's a Paladin-esque class for those that want to play something like that. About the Wizards, I assume the later supplement is the Wizards of High Sorcery book (or whatever it's called). I feel like I could probably just homebrew the changes (not requiring specialization, etc.), but I might thumb through it if I see it somewhere.

Sleet
2008-02-17, 05:54 PM
The WotL book has a Handler PrC, and it seems good enough for me, but if I get Races I'll see if it's different.

I haven't compared them, but I think it's the same.


About the Wizards, I assume the later supplement is the Wizards of High Sorcery book (or whatever it's called). I feel like I could probably just homebrew the changes (not requiring specialization, etc.), but I might thumb through it if I see it somewhere.

Yeah, you can probably fake the revisions. The big one is it that it doesn't require specialization (thus making conjurors and evokers playable).

It looks like you have things squared away - have fun with the game! I really love the Dragonlance setting, and I think the 3.5 supplements have been, on the whole, pretty darn good. I'm glad to see other people making good use of them too!