Undead Question

[Rune Katashima]

Currently I have made a Vampire Cleric. I have some pretty awesome stats, but because of the level adjustment I am starting at level 1. I don't really mind it, since I am decently powerful and I'm looking forward to the Roleplaying. My biggest problem is the incredibly low HP. We are currently ECL 7 in a *Drow* Campaign, which also causes a problem, because my teammates may decide to kill me at any time.
An Acquaintance of mine told me of a Feat that turns your HP bonus from CON to come from CHA. (Being that as an Undead, I lose my CON entirely)
So, any helpful tips to gain more HP would be helpful, or any defensive tricks would be nice too.
(I'm aware of the feats Toughness and Improved Toughness)

Edit: I realized I should add my stats to help you guys help me.
19STR, 19DEX, -CON, 18INT, 20WIS, 20CHA

[Talic]

Currently I have made a Vampire Cleric. I have some pretty awesome stats, but because of the level adjustment I am starting at level 1. I don't really mind it, since I am decently powerful and I'm looking forward to the Roleplaying. My biggest problem is the incredibly low HP. We are currently ECL 7 in a *Drow* Campaign, which also causes a problem, because my teammates may decide to kill me at any time.
An Acquaintance of mine told me of a Feat that turns your HP bonus from CON to come from CHA. (Being that as an Undead, I lose my CON entirely)
So, any helpful tips to gain more HP would be helpful, or any defensive tricks would be nice too.
(I'm aware of the feats Toughness and Improved Toughness)

Bear in mind, you can hide your coffin somewhere that requires Gaseous Form to get to. You have DR and fast healing.

Also, technically, if a creature with less than 5hd is turned, if becomes a less powerful vampire spawn. Thus, the level of the game should be high enough to allow you be a level 5 vampire before the template is allowed. Check Libris mortis for a vampire level add chart, and start as a 5hd with levels of the vampire racial class, it should work out better.

[Rune Katashima]

I'm aware of all the Vampiric Benefits, but I don't have a lot of Books or Knowledge base. I'm not entirely a newb though.
The books I have are, PHB, DMG, Complete Adventurer, Race of Dragons, Draconomicon, Drow of the Underdark, PHBII, Magic Item Compendium.

[Nebo_]

Playing with that kind of level adjustment is crippling. There is no feat that lets you use Charisma for HP, that's an ability that only some specific undead get called Unholy Toughness. The only way to easily get it as a PC is the Walker in the Waste PrC from Sandstorm.

[Rune Katashima]

I really just want to get back at them and turn them all into my vampire army for killing off my first character relatively fast. They actually have a history of killing off my characters. My worst threat is the Necromancer (Not sure if he is the class or a Wiz specializing in Necromancy).

[Rune Katashima]

Also, I start off with 24,000 Gold. Since I can't take leadership, (but I can make spawn anyway, yey!) I might hire an underling, like a rogue for trapfinding or something, not even sure about that. I am sure that I'm going to buy Adamantine Vestment though, that thing is pretty smexy for what I'm going for.
Any opinions?

[Chronos]

Actually, there is a feat that lets you use Cha for (first-level) HP, but it's only available to fey: Beauty's Bounty (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a).

[BRC]

Remember, as a vampire you will be really hard to kill anyway, especially if you don't tell your party where your coffin is hidden, that said, approach each member individually, saying you suspect some other member of wanting to kill you, and offering them gold for help in case the other member tries to backstab you. Do this with every member in the party, until each one is watching your back for you and keeping an eye on the others.

[FlyMolo]

Take a level of Dread Necromancer, for various undead-y abilities and charnel touch to heal yourself. I don't know if that's best for your character concept though.

[BRC]

Statistically it makes no sense, but it Is awsome, get yourself a spell-storeing dagger with Inflict Critical Wounds in it.
Then, if you need some emergency healing, stab yourself with it.

[Rune Katashima]

Someone already did the Gold thing. That's how they killed me the first time. I decided to scrap Cleric because I realized it wasn't absolutely necessary for me to be a Priestess (Priestesses are higher up on the Food Chain, so they are in a leadership position, with more command, etc.)
Now I'm a Monk, switched two stats which gave me 22STR, 18DEX, -CON, 16INT, 20WIS, 20CHA. I have Improved Grapple with a high STR so it'll be easier for me to drain people, and now they should win less Grapples against me. (They usually have been using grapples to cripple my characters). I actually haven't applied any base creature stats.

Edit: I have also decided to place my coffin in a cave in the cavern ceiling. The ceiling is HIGH, Darkvision only reaches 120 ft, no one should be able to find it or follow me without the ability of Flight, which I will develop counter-measures against as quickly as possible: By making the entrance subject to anti-magic, so those with "Fly" spells can't reach, making the tunnel to get to the cave only allow space for 1 medium creature at a time, and placing traps for all creatures that have a physical body, which root out medium-sized spiders and Wildshapers, as me and my Spawn should be able to enter and leave the place via Gaseous Form. I was thinking of having another anti-magic field in the actual coffin room so no one could "guess" and try to teleport there. Also, once I get enough spawn, I'm hoping to always have a few stationed there just in case.

Whaddaya guys think?

[Ganurath]

Now I'm a Monk, Whaddaya guys think?You've made a horrible mistake.

[BRC]

You've made a horrible mistake.
Not really, when it comes to worrying about backstabbing party members, a monk is the best class there is! Your hard to kill, and don't have any expensive magic items that may factor into your teammates wanting to kill you and sell.
And you wouldn't win in a stand-up fight against the entire party no matter what class you are.

[Collin152]

and don't have any expensive magic items that may factor into your teammates wanting to kill you and sell.


Snip.
This is just plain wrong. Monks have just as many magic items as others, just not weapons and armors. If anything, that makes you a bigger target.

[BRC]

Snip.
This is just plain wrong. Monks have just as many magic items as others, just not weapons and armors. If anything, that makes you a bigger target.
He won't because his teammates will already have stolen them all from him.

[Rune Katashima]

Well, also being a Vampire, I don't need much to augment my attacks. I deal 1d8+6 that also gives two Negative Levels. I know the damage isn't much, but considering I'm 1st lvl, I think I'm fine. Most of my power will probably come from the minions I plan on creating. Currently I have a Monk's Belt and am hoping to get an Impervious Vestment, but the Internet seems to have different Impervious Vestments than the Magic Item Compendium does, which I seem to have misplaced...

[Collin152]

He won't because his teammates will already have stolen them all from him.

Presumably while in his coffin.
So, do Vampires sleep in their coffins, or are they perfectly able to fend off people trying to take their stuff?
Either way, you shouldn't be lettign other people get in there in the first place.

[Parvum]

Edit: I have also decided to place my coffin in a cave in the cavern ceiling. The ceiling is HIGH, Darkvision only reaches 120 ft, no one should be able to find it or follow me without the ability of Flight, which I will develop counter-measures against as quickly as possible: By making the entrance subject to anti-magic, so those with "Fly" spells can't reach, making the tunnel to get to the cave only allow space for 1 medium creature at a time, and placing traps for all creatures that have a physical body, which root out medium-sized spiders and Wildshapers, as me and my Spawn should be able to enter and leave the place via Gaseous Form. I was thinking of having another anti-magic field in the actual coffin room so no one could "guess" and try to teleport there. Also, once I get enough spawn, I'm hoping to always have a few stationed there just in case.

If it's anti-magic, then you won't be able to reach it either, as gaseous form and alternate shape will end when you get there. And the coffin in itself is a HEAVY weakness. Unless you are very confident that you'll never be reduced to 0 hit points, you and your two spawn will spend every night dragging the coffin farther and farther so that it's always within 9 miles (the maximum distance you can reach when you're near death). But the spawn should discourage people from turning on you. Treat them nicely and they may even be freindly when you have to release them because you have turned that backstabber into a spawn and have had to go over your limit...

[Collin152]

Why don't people just bury their coffins? Gaseous form can pass through soil, right?

[Parvum]

Why don't people just bury their coffins? Gaseous form can pass through soil, right?

Hm... Let's see.


A gaseous creature can’t run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet (maneuverability perfect). It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can’t enter water or other liquid. It also can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.

So, technically, no (damn). Not unless the soil is just above a hollow chamber, then it you could say that the soil constitutes 'cracks'.

[Collin152]

Cracks in the soil, cracks in the wood, Coffin forms an Empty Chamber to rematerialize in.
I'd allow it if I were DM.

[Rune Katashima]

The Gaseous Form and Alternate Form are supernatural, but hmmm, that is subject to anti-magic too, huh? Still, there are ways to get around it, and I don't have to worry about distance, the entire campaign is taking place in one city, having the coffin reside in the ceiling above the city is fine enough.

Also, of course I will lvl up (Next session too, from the looks of it) so as I lvl up I can gain more spawn, in addition my spawn can have spawn of their own, and I can control them that way. The article on Vampires sort of goes out of its way to say so.
Hum, I'll have to rethink of ways to defend my coffin...

[Talic]

Here's what I suggest.

You're a cleric. Charisma helps your turn attempts. Make that your primary stat...

It also boosts save DC's for your vampy abilities. Meeting someone's eyes is all it takes for a mental dominate, and you can use that to keep party members divided. Keep a couple dominated, with orders to act normal, except that they resist any spells cast on them without your approval, and report anything anyone says that shows an intent to deprive you of life, freedom, or property.

[kenjigoku]

Just because I am curious, could you not use the Acid Test from Savage Species to help reduce the LA on Vampires. When I did the test I found they are more or less a +5 LA than a +7, meaning you could sneak in some more class levels.

[Rune Katashima]

I am no longer a Cleric, but a Monk. Though My Charisma remains at a 20(+5)
Also, I can only Dominate one person at a time, and I planned to use Dominate to help me get some Spawn easily early on. After which I can release them from Dominate so I can use it on someone else.
Also, it is only a Sense Motive 15 to detect if someone is dominated, I don't think that skill would be uncommon to rank up in a Campaign with potential backstabbers. My skill in it alone will win auto-win.

I have not heard of this Acid Test, can you fill me in more? ^^;

[kenjigoku]

The idea behind the Acid Test in savage species that you take a creature with the same base stats as you, the same class as you, and ect and compare you to it.

If you are weaker than a character of the same level, IE an 8th level monk, then you reduce the LA by one and test again. It still is up to your DM what is strong enough, but my group found that at ECL +5 Vampire work well.

[Solo]

Statistically it makes no sense, but it Is awsome, get yourself a spell-storeing dagger with Inflict Critical Wounds in it.
Then, if you need some emergency healing, stab yourself with it.

You mean like a healing shiv?

[DrizztFan24]

I'd hide the coffin in the rothe fields, or in a cavern; who would bother to look their even if they did care.

[Prometheus]

The vampire's best defense against outsiders is if they keep their identity secret. If you masquerade as human, grey elf, grey dwarf or a disguise, than anyone who attempts to turn against you will do so making the false assumption that you are human.

Of course, this does somewhat limit you when taking advantage of your benefits and countering your weaknesses, but if the DM were concerned on your behalf, he could simply assert that vampire lore is not widely known, so even if they know you are "strange", they won't know to find and destroy your coffin, stake you, or behead you. Also if your DM is favorable, ask about the mechanics of staking or beheading you, and what you an do to counteract them. Unless your DM gets his kicks from PvP, he'll probably prefer conditions that prevent the party from fighting itself (in so much as it doesn't apply to other encounters that is, and maybe even then, if he perceives you weak)Also spend money towards safeguarding (trapping, hiding, blocking) your coffin.

[mabriss lethe]

Libris Mortis is your friend. Get access to a copy immediately.

Some feats you'll want to take. (all from L M)

Improved toughness: You gain a bonus to your HP based upon your hit dice.

Improved Energy Drain: Gives you additional bonuses when you deal negative levels.

Necrotic reserve:when you use your energy drain attack, you gain a reserve of life force that can sustain you if you drop below 0 HP. Must have.

Life sense is amazing, but not absolutely necessary. (living creatures appear to give off light to your eyes.)

Get a necrotic focus weapon ASAP, It allows you to channel your drain attack through a melee weapon. It's a +3 or 4 enhancement, but well worth it when you start to flurry.

There's a Master Vampire template that only requires a vampire to have a certain number of HD to take...10 HD I think. It boosts your abilities tremendously (and is either a +0 or +1 LA template...I can't remember.)

LM also has an evolved undead template that might be nice for you. LA +1 template, gives a boost to Natural armor, a random 1/day spell like ability, Fast Healing 3, +2 str and cha. It can also be taken multiple times.

[ChaosDefender24]

Unfortunately, you can't rely too much on your energy drain, since it's only once per round :( The best way to get energy drain is to go soul eater, but you as an undead cannot do this.

Seriously though, it's a rough pick. Full casters are out of the question due to your ridiculous LA, I'm actually almost thinking that you could do a grappler due to your whole blood drain thing (immunity to Polymorph is a real pain, however). A class that I'd look into if I wanted to make an army is Master Vampire, which lets you get uber with your spawn capacity.

[mabriss lethe]

Unfortunately, you can't rely too much on your energy drain, since it's only once per round :( The best way to get energy drain is to go soul eater, but you as an undead cannot do this.

There are other ways to stack on multiple negative levels per turn. Necrotic focus weapons (as mentioned earlier) allow you to apply an energy drain attack through the weapon. In the vampire's description in the SRD, it also says that it may use the drain attack with any natural weapon the base creature posesses.

A monk with flurry of blows can rack up with a necrotic focus weapon. The souldrinking weapon ability from BoVD will get you an additional negative level with that weapon. Death Devotion from complete Champion allows for even more negative levels.

You can drop three aberant feats to get access to two additional tentacle attacks via deepspawn. You can use Abberant blood to get a tail, combined with EWP for one of the savage species tail weapons w/necrotic focus just feeds back into the loop.

it's nigh impossible to fit all of these options into a single build, but it's enough to pick and choose.

[Rune Katashima]

I've done the Improved Toughness thing. Luckily I still get feats with an LA, 3 Feats. I have until this Saturday to make all adjustments to my character.
This Master Vampire thing sounds appealing. I plan on trying to basically turn the entire city into an Undead Vampire Swarm. There is a much more elaborate plan behind this, but telling all of it would be like telling my life story, also, 'tis not as fun :o
That Negative Levels stacking thing looks interesting too, especially early on when things are low lvl.

[mabriss lethe]

I've been toying around with a wight build that, by 20th level, can dish out something like 14 negative levels to a single creature in one turn. I think using a vampire would probably increase that tremendously.

[Rune Katashima]

But a Wight doesn't have the same LA as a Vamp, does it?
Also, I'm not clear on what the Rothe Fields are. Finally, what would define "weaker" to an 8th lvl character? Aside from the Gold:Level Ratio and the items that would accompany that, I'm actually quite certain I could clean the clock of an 8th lvl Monk, items aside. It might take awhile though.

Edit: I take it back, it shouldn't take too long.

[mabriss lethe]

The LA for a wight is +4 with 4 racial HD for a total of +8 You snag some modest stat boosts, a slam attack, energy drain +4 natural armor, and spawning for that.

Going monk 12 will net you enough of a combined BAB to flurry with 5 attacks. You can slam on top of that for 6 attacks per round. It actually works out better to go for Tattooed monk ASAP so that you can qualify for SR and other goodies too

Wights only do 1 negative level per attack (unlike a master vamp who gets 3 negs) Your base wight will only dish out 1 negative level per turn.

Now, take a Kama or some other monk weapon and make it (eventually) a +1 necrotic focus souldrinking weapon. Now with necrotic focus, our wight will deal his one negative level on all his flurry attacks (5/round) + 1 with his slam. Souldrinking adds an additional negative level per strike in a flurry (5 more) for a total of 11.

The Death Devotion feat, allows you to imbue a weapon with magic for one minute that allows it to deal 1 negative level per hit. You can only bestow one negative level to a target using DD per 5 character levels. I'm a little iffy on how the level adjustment affects this so I err on the side of caution and say that you can bestow a total of 3 (4 if LA counts for determining total character level in this instance) negative levels in this fashion for a total of 14(or even 15). It jumps to a total of 16 (17) negative levels when split between 2 or more targets.

Apply whatever will work to your vampire and go have a blast

[Rune Katashima]

What would stop me from having a +1 Necrotic Focus weapon immediately? Also, does that require a Feat?
My current Feats are pretty basic. Improved Grapple (Because I regularly die through grapples and it makes Blood Drain easier). I took Stunning Fist for my Monk Feat. Weapon Focus (Unarmed), to hit things easier, basically. Improved Toughness for more HP. Weapon Focus is replaceable by some measure, and Improved Toughness can wait 'til I get my next Feat since I won't be getting much of a Benefit on my first HD.
Are there some downsides about the Tattoed Monk? Because I had been considering that.

[Talic]

How does a Necrotic focus weapon override the following:


Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

Bolded for emphasis.

[mabriss lethe]

How does a Necrotic focus weapon override the following:

/snip/

You know, I'm honestly not sure. I've only skimmed the vampire entry. I missed that part.

Nothing in the entry for Necrotic Focus, that I remember, seems to countermand the Vampire entry though. I may have to defer to someone who actually has a copy of LM on hand though. I'm loaning my copy out to another player right now, so all I have is my recollections. Looks like it won't fly so well with the vampire as it will the wight.

I'm more familiar with the wight than the vampire right now, And since the original creature really wasn't meant for PC play,unlike the vampire, I think they never got around to dealing with some of the more practical ramifications when they made a monster race out of it in LM. (ie that it lacks a cap on the number of spawn you can directly control and that there is no expressed limit on the number of energy drain attacks a wight can make per round in either the SRD or LM...In this case the LM web excerpt...)


What would stop me from having a +1 Necrotic Focus weapon immediately?

Wealth by level, possibly. N. focus is a +3 enhancement. It really gets expensive when you drop souldrinking on top of that for another +4. That's why I only suggested a +1 weapon in this regard. (and added in the "eventually") The total enhancement bonus for it would be +8 for both enhancements. Pricey by anyone's standards. And no, you don't need a feat to use a necrotic focus weapon, you just need the ability to use an energy drain attack or I think, an ability drain attack.


Are there some downsides about the Tattoed Monk? Because I had been considering that.

Well, you lose out on a lot of the special abilities that would be absolutely pointless to have since being undead covers most of them. In its place, you get to pick and choose your abilities via the tattoos. Your main monk abilities stack with levels of tattooed monk, though. (flurry, ac, and speed I think.)the things you can pick up, if you can wedge enough levels in, are Damage Reduction, SR (which you normally couldn't qualify for at all due to ECL )Haste as an SLA, an unarmed damage bonus, a smite feature...some self healing.

[Rune Katashima]

Nice, I'll have to go look that up. Right now since we're all ECL7, it doesn't matter much, but our DM told us he's made the story able to go past 20th level, so we can expect Epic levels.
+8 is probably too much even with our starting wealth, which is pretty nice. SR will probably be nice in a Drow Campaign where everything has SR, hehe. (Which is half the reason I decided to scrap Cleric.)
Anyway, d'you think I should change my Feats?