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gaymer_seattle
2008-02-11, 01:23 PM
A friend of mine and I have been long debating the merits and problems of the tendency of players to optimize their characters. Stats is all the best places. The best choice of Feat combinations. The latest greatest Prestige Class.

It has ended up, in our party, and our general view of D&D vX.Y being a numbers game, not a role playing game. I see a broad trend of character power (and thus success and chances of success) being based almost entirely on equations and luck of the die roll. And if a character encounters an obstacle that is not killable or destroyable or simply has an attack or defense that doesn't match the mold of the build there is complete and utter failure and/or major player disappointment

My challenge, to all the readers, build a character based on character. Here are the specs.

THE USUALS
Name
Race
Age
Physical Description (remember if your character is "hot" you had better be willing to invest points in CHA)

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - and why
Favorite Food - feel free to use real world choices (chinese, mexican, indian)
Favorite Sport - (Chess, Fencing, etc also count)
Favorite Sport - That your character plays (be prepared to justify with skills)
Favorite Music - again, feel free to use real world equivalents (Bards, be able to say why)
Favorite Childhood Toy - Why
Childhood Career Aspiration - Smith, Apothecary, Fireman - and why
Best Friend - Who were they? Where are they now? What do they do for a living? What made them a best friend?
First Crush - was it first boy/girlfriend of unrequited? Is it still going? How do they cope with your adventuring lifestyle?
First Career - Farmhand? Smith apprentice? Librarian? (Must justify with skills)
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Was it sports? Games? Hunting? Swimming, Camping? Climbing? Reading? (Be able to support with Skills)
Parents/Family - Alive? Dead? (if so how?) Their careers. Personalities (Kind, tough, Just, Fun). What are they doing today? How did they influence your personality?
Your Personality - Outgoing? Withdrawn? Studious? Clown? Describe daily habits that justify your personality. Describe how it influences your interactions with others.

THE BUILD
If you didn't spend at least an hour on the previous sections, go back and work on it some more. Don't make me assign a minimum number of words!

STATS
Put your dice away. Here are Stat Rules
Assume that all stats start at 8.
you have 40 points to spend
Here are the costs. It's Score followed by point costs

9 - 1
10 - 2
11 - 3
12 - 4
13 - 5
14 - 6
15 - 8
16 - 10
17 - 13
18 - 16

So you have 2 18s and everything else will have to be 9s and 10s
Consider "Hot" to be a CHA of 14 or higher

RACE
Base PBH races all apply. Race Ability scores are applied after the point cost is complete.

CLASS
Build a 10th level character.
You can use core classes, but not the Complete X books.
You can have one Prestige Class from the DMG for which you have the pre-reqs


Skills and Feats can come from PBH, DMG, and the Complete Series, but no splat or magazine articles.
Spells can come from PBH, Complete Arcane and Complete Divine

Use the Weapon Feat option from the Unearth Arcana

Don't bother buying equipment and weapons.

Build away and at the end, have a quick summary of who your character is

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-11, 01:44 PM
If we're allowed PHB2 classes, I have a character I can throw in for this (Vethedar players may recognise her...).

Crow
2008-02-12, 03:48 AM
I'd really like to throw one in too, but I will need some time.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-12, 05:20 AM
Actually, just to clarify the previous: the concept could work as a Fighter but, for fluff reasons, Knight works much better- Challenge and Shield Block in particular are exactly what she'd have.

Rutee
2008-02-12, 05:25 AM
Now, forgive my squirrely ignorance, but what're you trying to prove? I might be up to a dip through DnD material regardless, just to keep it in mind in case I do play, but I am curious on what you're trying to demonstrate.

Also, is Tome of Battle fine?

Tengu
2008-02-12, 05:29 AM
I can only assume that he wants to compare how much effort will people put into creating the fluff, and how much into the crunch.

Rutee
2008-02-12, 05:33 AM
If that were true, that wouldn't seem strictly fair; These are characters who aren't going to get played, and crunch takes significantly less mental effort then their story.

Edit: I think I see what the OP's trying to do. You're.. not seriously thinking about whether DnD as a system is designed to facilitate roleplaying first, are you? 'cause, it's not. It's a thoroughly gamist-tilted system. Look at where the bulk of the rules in the PHB go. It really is glorified Nethack, going by the base rules. There's no mechanical means with which to add a spurt of extra effectiveness when dramatic appropriateness. On a character sheet, almost 90% of the space goes towards combat-wombat stuff. There's no mechanical room for more then one party face; Further on that note, there's not much to take to be a better face; Mechanically speaking, the tricky, smooth talking character is generally only slightly better then the reticent barbarian. It's.. pretty ridiculous.. if you're looking for a more narratively tilted system, I'd recommend White Wolf's WoD or Exalted setups, offhand...

SoD
2008-02-12, 05:37 AM
True, but some people like creating stuff just for the fun of creating them. Me for example, I'll be running up one later today.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-12, 05:49 AM
Actually, my intention's to bung up a character I'm already playing, with a few more details- I'm generally driven by the "Hey, cool" concept factor and pick feats and stuff to fit that, so I do tend to do this kind of thing anyway.

Mad Maudlin
2008-02-12, 08:26 AM
Okay, I think this is in the spirit of the challenge - A character who might be easier to play if her stats didn't adhere to her story/personality. So, I give you: a fallen paladin, plumbing the depths of personal redemption.

I'll put the summary first, because that's less confusing: She fast-tracked her way into paladinhood as a squire to an older paladin, and she was more Good than Lawful. Once she left her master, she began her crusade against evil, and eventually a young sorcerer joined her fight. He was Elan-sweet without being Elan-stupid, and she felt all sorts of motherly urges towards him. She promised to protect him. Then their party came up against some kind of aberration, and it became apparent that the only way to stop this evil was to sacrifice the sorcerer's life. The sorcerer went willingly to his death, but the paladin's guilt dragged her out of her alignment and she fell. She left the party soon after, and has not atoned.

Now she's taken several levels in beguiler and begun her fight against evil with some new tactics. The trick she uses most often is to join an evil adventuring party - masquerading as a Chaotic Evil lunatic with spellcasting abilities - then pick them off one by one.

Name : Ivy Leyons
Race : Human
Age : 26-27
Physical Description : She's more lithe-muscled than chunky, but she's really no fairy princess, even a couple of years after falling and becoming an arcane caster. Wheat-blonde hair, which goes nicely into a metaphor with cornflower-blue eyes. She doesn't tend to tan well, so she has quite pale skin.

Favorite Color - She's always thought white and gold were a pretty combination, but always shied away from wearing them because white makes her look like a ghost. Since she fell, though, she just doesn't care, and wears white robes with gold trim cuz she can.
Favorite Food - She's not a big fan of sweet things, except that her mother always used to make this hazelnut cake/pastry thing that she still remembers despite her years away from home. Apart from that, she prefers no-frills food, the meat-and-potatoes stuff.
Favorite Sport - She's never really seen the point of spectator sports. See next answer...
Favorite Sport (That your character plays) - Running. Or climbing. Or swimming. She's always been the active type, and she prefers her activity in solitude. As a child she would sometimes leave home in the morning, and just see how far she could travel in a straight line before turning back at midday.
Favorite Music - Her guilty pleasure (Totally not guilty after her fall - she just doesn’t care anymore) is female vocal music. She can't hold a tune herself, but she loves listening to the kind of singer who sings deep meaningful songs. Real world example, probably Vienna Teng. But she pretends to like proud ballads and the like.
Favorite Childhood Toy - The building blocks. She'd spend hours creating these elaborate structures, and come up with a function for each room and names for the people who lived there and everything. Although she didn't really need many toys... she was the kind of child whose peas would raise an organized assault against her potatoes at mealtimes (the carrots were officers steadying the skittish pea ranks).
Childhood Career Aspiration - She always knew exactly what she was going to be – an explorer. And she was going to help build a new world wherever there wasn't one already. She always liked the idea of building cities on the moon - her teacher told her it was really big and empty, so it would be perfect for sowing the seeds of utopia, right?
Best Friend - She was the archetypical 'precocious child', so she always made friends easily. And she decided that every friend of hers was her best friend, whether they'd know each other since before they could speak or they'd only met yesterday. She had a group of friends whose parents were close, so they'd known each other since birth, but they grew apart when these kids turned out to be the local rebels. Ivy was Lawful Good right from the beginning. They were still friendly, but Ivy opted out of rebelling with them.
First Crush - She was never interested in the village boys, which further alienated her from her rebellious friends who were playing doctor fairly young. Then, when she was in her early teens, a female Paladin of Ilmater came riding through town on all sorts of diplomatic missions, and found reason to stay for a while. For Ivy, it was love at first sight. After a lot of convincing, the paladin agreed to bring Ivy along as her squire. Over time the crush developed from a burning desire to please her master to an encompassing ambition to be like her.
First Career - Her mother was a baker, and encouraged Ivy to help in the bakehouse, right up until it transpired that Ivy had an uncanny talent for burning things. So she was relegated to other chores, and never had the beginnings of any real career, until she swept out of town as a paladin's squire.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - When she wasn’t making herself useful somewhere (at home or helping the neighbors), she would usually be running or swimming in the lake outside town. There were all sorts of interesting climbing rocks by the lake as well, and she could easily exercise herself into a pleasantly mindless exhaustion.
Parents/Family - Her mother's still baking, but her father had to retire from his job as a farm hand after an accident left him with a weak knee. Their second daughter, Jenny, much younger than Ivy (by about eight years), has joined her mother in the bakehouse. She is much better than Ivy was. Ivy had a good relationship with both her parents, and was really devoted to Jenny - since Jenny was old enough to speak, people were comparing her unfavorably with her older sister, and this upset Ivy no end. Years after, even after her fall, Ivy still hates to see a child being told she should be better than she is.
Your Personality - As a paladin, she was more Galahad than Lancelot. True to her god, Ilmater, she hated to see anyone in pain and would gladly place herself in pain's way to spare someone she barely knew. If she saw a moral ambiguity, her first instinct was to heal, not to destroy. However, since her fall, she's been haunted by her conscience, and believes she doesn't deserve redemption. She'll still place herself in harm's way, but she won't interact fully with the people she wants to protect. If she sees a cause worth fighting for, she'll still fight, but she's lost the will, if not the urge, to save people in spiritual turmoil. She feels it would be too hypocritical.

Stats-

Str - 16
Dex - 13
Con - 14
Int - 12
Wis - 13
Cha - 18

Race - Human

Class - Four useless levels of Paladin, six levels of Beguiler


Skills - Bluff +13, Climb +1, Diplomacy +7, Disable Device +5, Disguise +12, Forgery +5, Handle Animal +3, Heal +5, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +4, Move Silently +6, Open Lock +2, Search +3, Sense Motive +7, Swim +1 (As a paladin, she sank all her skill points into Diplomacy and Sense Motive, with some ranks in things like Heal and Handle Animal. After falling, she started training herself to infiltrate evil adventuring parties. She didn't put any more effort into her paladin skills.)

Feats - Athletic, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Blind-fight, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Deceitful.

Spells as Beguiler Spell list.

Hm... I actually really like this character now... If I ever have to start a campaign at 10th level, I may come back to her. (Maybe a DM would let me atone during the game:smallbiggrin: )

helium3
2008-02-12, 11:57 AM
Edit: I think I see what the OP's trying to do. You're.. not seriously thinking about whether DnD as a system is designed to facilitate roleplaying first, are you? 'cause, it's not. It's a thoroughly gamist-tilted system. Look at where the bulk of the rules in the PHB go. It really is glorified Nethack, going by the base rules. There's no mechanical means with which to add a spurt of extra effectiveness when dramatic appropriateness. On a character sheet, almost 90% of the space goes towards combat-wombat stuff.

So the way I play an RPG should be entirely dictated by what's contained within the rule-set and displayed on the character sheet? Funny, that's nearly the exact same argument proffered by the player Gaymer_Seattle's talking about when he and I were discussing why he's unable and unwilling to role-play.

"My character's stat-block doesn't have mechanics describing his interests and goals, so he doesn't have any other than to be good at what's described in his stat-block."

That's a near verbatim quote from my conversation with him.

Now, I get what you're saying and I actually agree. Any RPG is designed to create a specific play experience when used in accordance with its rules. Most RPG's attempt to emulate both a genre and a playstyle.

D&D's big problem is that while its genre is fairly broad (too broad some might say) it claims to have a downright expansive playstyle. Even way back in 2nd edition there was much hand wringing in the various DM oriented books about the importance of role-playing and how to prevent your game from devolving into "hack-and-slash."

In a sense, this is probably what I respect most about the new edition that's coming out. Its shed much of this false patina of "you can have any playstyle you want" garbage and is much more nakedly a mini's based skirmish game, which is what D&D started out as in the first place. Personally, I wish WotC would drop the "it can be anything to anyone" act entirely, but I suppose that would result in some loss of market share so they aren't likely to do that.

Getting back to the OP, I think the best way to accomplish what gaymer_seattle's asking for is to take a D&D character and translate it into a WoD character. That's what I would do if I had a copy of Mage : The Ascension, the only WW game I've played. Maybe I should buy a copy . . .

KoDT69
2008-02-12, 12:49 PM
Name - Colossus Hootie (name pun, like calling a huge guy "Tiny", and the last name, well Hootie and the Blowfish had just come out and the DM assigned me the name on a whim :smalleek: )
Race - Halfling
Age - 25

Physical Description - A dashing young halfling about 3'6" and of a lean athletic build is very good looking, having deep hunter green hair and crystal blue eyes that always seem to sparkle even in the darkest light. He has a few very colorful and ornate tatoos on his forearms and biceps highlighted by his sleeveless assortment of shirts :smallwink: His muscles are toned and well defined.

Favorite Color - Lime Green - While being a somewhat natural color, it still has a tendancy to be easily noticed amongst other colors.

Favorite Food - Meat and potatoes. While appearing to have more exotic tastes, you just can't beat the basics. Although he will try anything twice :smallsmile:

Favorite Sport - Gladiator Tournaments - He may be small, but he loves to show off his prowess in combat.

Favorite Music - Anything lively that he can dance to.

Favorite Childhood Toy - The throwing dagger - He was taught at a very young age that a dagger can be deadly and fun at the same time. He learned to respect the blade and make it an extension of himself.

Childhood Career Aspiration - Adventurer - His excessive wonderlust combined with his constant dagger practice led him to believe he would be able to see the worlds and hold his own in a good fight.

Best Friend - Logan the Minotaur Cleric of St. Cuthbert. They became good friends after meeting in a tavern while taking cover from a huge tropical storm. They soon found they could trust each other completely and that their talents and beliefs were quite complimentary.

First Crush - His first crush was on a you girl travelling with a nomadic barbarian tribe that passed through his village when he was only 10 years old. They played together by the pond, climbed in the trees, and traded stories of their family heritages. It was too good to last though. The tribe had only spent a couple days in the village and suprisingly enough made pleasant company to the halfling townsfolk. This tribe was a bit more civilized, but still would have benefitted from the use of proper dining utensils! He made a vow to find her tribe again someday. This was a part of his wonderlust, the urge to head north from home, in search of that barbarian girl. He still seeks her to this day...

First Career - Dance Instructor - He was a born natural and had the insight to profit from his enjoyable hobby.

Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Dancing and courting ladies - He who is good at those has little care for other hobbies :smallbiggrin:

Parents/Family - His parents died not from disease, village raiding, or any other cliche stuff, but from old age. They had 5 children, Colossus being the last, and they were already at the top end of middle-age, passing into the elder years at the time of his birth. His father was a Bard who entertained the village for many years, not often leaving home. He was a good father and spent quality time with all of the children. He was strict with punishment and taught that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. This would shape young Colossus into what he is today. His mother was a Preistess of Arvoreen and a stalwart defender of the Halfling village. Mother was actually much stronger than father in most aspects. It was also mother who taught him to dance.

Your Personality - He is very outgoing and polite, but somewhat of a showoff. He normally interacts with people in a positive way, but can be rather irritating when anything competitive arises. He also has a dark side, only evoked from intentional wrong-doing. He craves the taste of vengeance. Not his best quality, but the most defining.

Crunch - Fighter 4 / Bard 3 / Rogue 3
STR - 16 (base 18 -2 racial) =16
DEX - 16 (base 14 +2 racial) =6
CON - 10 =2
INT - 10 =2
WIS - 10 =2
CHA - 16 =10
=40 point buy

Skill ranks in
Perform (Dance)
Diplomacy
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)
Sense Motive
Spot
Listen
Tumble

Fighting Style - 2 weapon fighter, preferring daggers as a primary weapon. He carries 6 throwing daggers plus his 2 larger melee daggers. He is quick to engage in melee and using light armor, try to take advantage of any mobility granted from skill or terrain advantages. If there is an audience, he will embellish and upstage the enemy whenever possible, often using insults or mockery to entertain the spectators and unnerve the opponent.

I did play this kind of character in a real game, and regardless of his lack of optimization, still contributed meaningfully to the campaign in almost every scenario. :smallsmile:

gaymer_seattle
2008-02-12, 02:59 PM
Before I justify my purpose in all of this I'm going to give you my own back story of D & D experience to show the progression I have seen in myself and a lot of what I see in the game today.

MY BACK STORY
I started playing D&D at the end of 1st Edition Circa 1988 when I was just entering High School. I had been a hard core fan of Dragon Lance and even picked up the RPG book, not really realizing that there was a game to be had of it. I met some people who were D&D players and I got into the game struggling mightily with THAC0 (ain't that a dead term) and the disappointment that no matter what I was willing to sacrifice, my wizard only had one (yes count 'em one) first level spell to begin with.

As my group changed and we moved into 2nd Edition I watched as my "Fighter" friends started the only math they would ever enjoy. "I do a minimum damage of X and a maximum damage of Y". This campaign eventually ran its course and a few years later just out of high school we had a new DM and we started a campaign that had an unusually high emotional content. While I'm not sure I would ever want to play a game that intense again, it was a great experience, and we had almost none of the of character calculating. Granted there was less to be done in 2nd Edition, but still there were no concerns about how much damage a character could do in a single hit or a single attack round.

It would be almost 10 years before I got involved in D&D again. In the mean time I played some World of Darkness, ShadowRun, and Alternity. Video games got more into the RP part of RPG (Final Fantasy 7 is still one of my favs).

I met some people who were running a 2nd edition campaign in Fall of 2001 right as 3rd edition was coming out. I got in and proceeded to play a series of characters through 2 home brews and one Eberron campaign that each had "useless" skills and feats, from a combat stand point, but were very much in line with the character's personality. This was in part due to the fact that I was in school and didn't have hours and hours to spend reading all the options and how they might interact with one another. The other reason was, I picked skills and feats that were explained by the character's background.

NOW TO POINT OF THE EXERCISE

I completely disagree that D&D is a game-ist game. No more so than any other game. It's entirely the players and the DMs that make it so. Or not so. If a DM makes a campaign which is a series of monstrous encounters, and the players never push for anything but the next XP fix then you have a game-ist campaign. If you have a DM that has an extra X number of XP points that goto the player with the best Role Playing, or best problem solving (that doesn't involve maximum damage), if you have players who want to pursue story arcs that are relevant to their character's development then you have a role playing campaign. It's all based on how you define the rewards of the play.

Now, I have already seen in this endeavor that people have taken it somewhat seriously. Indeed it is easier to do the math than write the story, but when it comes down to it, the details I have are what it takes to create a character. If you are just rolling stats, adding a class and feats, and doing some of the other calculations you haven't created a character, you have created a stat block. You have created an something with all the color, texture and life of an equation.

Additionally, I don't see the challenge as being pointless. These characters could very well be played. They can be an NPC in a game you are running. They can be your back up character if you character buys some agricultural territory. If you want to fuss with the level (up and down) they can be a character for a new game that isn't starting at first.

The long and short of it is, you have created a playable character for any reason. I put limitations on class pure to avoid any munchinism. Outside this challenge change the class to what you need it to be. Play the character. You put in the effort, you deserve it

Rutee
2008-02-12, 03:33 PM
So the way I play an RPG should be entirely dictated by what's contained within the rule-set and displayed on the character sheet? Funny, that's nearly the exact same argument proffered by the player Gaymer_Seattle's talking about when he and I were discussing why he's unable and unwilling to role-play.
Well, you pretty much clarified what I meant on your own, so... XD


I completely disagree that D&D is a game-ist game. No more so than any other game. It's entirely the players and the DMs that make it so. Or not so. If a DM makes a campaign which is a series of monstrous encounters, and the players never push for anything but the next XP fix then you have a game-ist campaign. If you have a DM that has an extra X number of XP points that goto the player with the best Role Playing, or best problem solving (that doesn't involve maximum damage), if you have players who want to pursue story arcs that are relevant to their character's development then you have a role playing campaign. It's all based on how you define the rewards of the play.

I apologize profusely for any inconvenience this statement makes, but you're wrong; DnD as a system is entirely gamist. You /can/ job it into something else, of course, and there's nothing stopping you from doing so. You can play however you want, after all; Nobody's going to hunt you down for playing DnD as roleplay, or Exalted as Hack n' Slash, or what have you. The system, however, is very clearly meant to accommodate hack n' slash and combat first, not roleplay. The rules for advancement primarily improve you as a combatant. Basically, my point is that, in the words of an above poster, the challenges DnD is trying to create for its players are primarily combat or dungeon-crawl oriented. If you're going to argue that DnD is a thoroughly gamist system, argue against where the bulk of its rules are tilted, not that "I can do whatever I want with it", as that's a system-neutral truism.

Anyway, regardless of your challenge, I'm using ToB, come to think of it. I couldn't really care less about munchkinism, just accurately reflecting both skills and combat style (Which, given that I'm translating a character from a different RP to this, is hard; After all, that system doesn't tie one's combat style choice into one's skill selection..) I create full characters as a matter of course; I don't need your challenge to show me /that/.. Another post incoming shortly, I suppose.

gaymer_seattle
2008-02-12, 04:40 PM
I was actually fortunate enough to have taken a class on game design. The basics of the game is that form and function must work together.

Combat is integral part of almost every RPG. It is necessary component of story telling: Conflict. Man vs Man, Man vs Beast, etc. But if that was all there was to D&D why bother with most of the skills? Why bother having Feats that augment skills? Why bother with spells that do not either directly prevent damage, heal damage, or deal damage? Why bother with colorful names and historical context? Why not just have the game be an elaborate version of Pong?

Why not just box up your books and go play World of Warcraft?

D&D has created a mechanism by which you suspend a certain amount of disbelief and portray an alter ego. Just because the most complex system (combat) has the most rules doesn't mean that combat is the sole purpose. Xp is not awarded based on how many opponents you kill. XP is awarded based on CRs. CRs are best known for being assigned to monsters, but they also apply to traps. They can be applied to puzzles. They can be applied to town librarian who can't just be killed to give you what you want.

The limitations of the game are in the creativity of the players (including DM) not on a base set of numbers that are suppose to represent simplified versions of real world measurements

Rutee
2008-02-12, 05:19 PM
This is a vaguely irritating impulse to battle.. You aren't arguing my point; You're arguing that the mythical reason I play DnD (I basically /don't/, but you're thinking that if I did, it would be for pure gamism) is wrong, and that I should play something else, rather then providing a proper argument against the rules being gamist tilted.

CR, as described and enumerated in the book, /can/ be applied to anything, but the only /good/ guidelines are monsters and traps. And traps don't have that many good guidelines, to boot. Not to mention that Traps are part of dungeon crawling...

As to skills? Disable Device, Open Lock, About half the Knowledge skills as printed (All of them, if you look at the Gaming Article about how to make the other Knowledge Skills good), Tumble, Jump, Bluff, Sense Motive, etc.. almost all get used in dungeon crawling or combat. In fact, I'd say the only skill that can't be is Diplomacy, and Diplomacy isn't really a supported skill. Very simplistic rules, etc.

If DnD as a system is not based on combat and dungeon crawling, why are those the only real aspects that improve significantly with level, or with wealth, within the books? You've /played/ other systems. You /recognize/ that there are advancement and skill systems that de-emphasize combat, and more readily support a conflict that isn't a straight up fight. Why the opposition?

Chronos
2008-02-12, 07:35 PM
I don't feel like creating a whole new character, here, so I'll just insert a character I've played in the past, including everything that I did actually have fleshed out, and omitting what I didn't.

[spoiler]THE USUALS
Name: Bolfo Highburrow
Race: Hobbit (my characters never refer to themselves as "halfling", since from their perspective, they're full-sized, and humans are "Bigs").
Age: 40
Physical Description (remember if your character is "hot" you had better be willing to invest points in CHA): Although Bolfo was not blessed with particularly good looks, he's spent considerable time and effort refining himself, and presents a very distinguished, professional face to the world. Where some might be described as a "diamond in the rough", Bolfo is more of a very well-cut garnet. He's given to ostentation, but always stops short of outright gaudiness. In fact, it's this appreciation of an ostentatious lifestyle which motivates his adventures: The good things in life cost money, and adventuring is a ready source of it.

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - and why
never came up

Favorite Food - feel free to use real world choices (chinese, mexican, indian):
Liver and onions, served with plenty of sauteed mushrooms, and a mug of good stout beer

Favorite Sport - (Chess, Fencing, etc also count):
Polo, or something similarly highbrow and distinguished

Favorite Sport - That your character plays (be prepared to justify with skills)
never came up

Favorite Music - again, feel free to use real world equivalents (Bards, be able to say why)
Classical

Favorite Childhood Toy - Why
never came up, though he does buy toys for his niece and nephew (see Family, below)

Childhood Career Aspiration - Smith, Apothecary, Fireman - and why
Adventurer, because he wants the fame, fortune, and treasure

Best Friend - Who were they? Where are they now? What do they do for a living? What made them a best friend?
never came up

First Crush - was it first boy/girlfriend of unrequited? Is it still going? How do they cope with your adventuring lifestyle?
never came up, though he might settle down if he ever got a large enough stash of wealth

First Career - Farmhand? Smith apprentice? Librarian? (Must justify with skills)
Managing the family plantation

Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Was it sports? Games? Hunting? Swimming, Camping? Climbing? Reading? (Be able to support with Skills)
Homebrewing beer

Parents/Family - Alive? Dead? (if so how?) Their careers. Personalities (Kind, tough, Just, Fun). What are they doing today? How did they influence your personality?
Parents (Tollo and Ruby (nee Fairbairn) Highburrow) are both dead, and left Highburrow Farms (a small pipeweed plantation) to Bolfo and his sister Lily. Although the Highburrows generally frown on adventure, family legend on his mother's side says that they are descended from the famous Elanor Fairbairn, and hence from some rather notable adventurers, and it's likely that this connection served as an inspiration for Bolfo. The Highburrow family is rather well-to-do, and each generation is traditionally expected to expand the family's fortunes. Bolfo used the liquid portion of his inheritance to outfit himself for his first adventures, while leaving his share of the farm and homestead (the bulk of the estate) in trust with his sister. Although he nominally retains half ownership, he neither has any control of nor receives any profit from the land (beyond refilling his weed-pouch whenever he comes to visit), and Lily has a signed document to that effect (if she bothered to keep it; she's much less meticulous about such things than her brother). Lily is married to Rastin Plumpfellow, an eminently sensible hobbit who frowns on his connection to "that disgraceful adventurer", but Lily is kindly inclined to and tolerant of her brother. Lily and Rastin have two children, Thaddin, age 13, and Daffodil, age 9. His family are the most important people in the world to Bolfo, and he tries to visit regularly, generally bringing presents for his niece and nephew and a bit of gold for his sister, to which Rastin generally objects. Knowing that an adventurer's life is a dangerous one, Bolfo always carries a copy of his will on his person, which specifies (in extensive legalese) that if he should die without chance of raising, his adventuring equipment (including magical items) should be left to Thaddin, all gems, jewelry, and works of art he owns should be left to Daffodil, 10% of his liquid assets should go to whomever should execute his will, and the remainder (including his share of the farm) should revert to Lily.

Your Personality - Outgoing? Withdrawn? Studious? Clown? Describe daily habits that justify your personality. Describe how it influences your interactions with others.
Appearances are very important to Bolfo, and he takes care to always maintain an appearance of proper gentility. He lives by his sworn (and usually signed) word, and will insist upon the finest details of a contract, but once the contract is set in stone, is likely to buy a round of drinks for his business partner, and leave a generous tip. Even more than he enjoys earning money, he enjoys spending it, and even more than spending money, he enjoys making his spending publicly known and visible.

More information (didn't fit any of the above categories):
Bolfo describes himself by profession as a "Professional treasure hunter". He would never stand for the label of "thief" or "rogue", since he only ever works on behalf of the legitimate owner of a treasure, or in cases where there is no legitimate owner. He considers altruism admirable, and is free with his money, but will adventure only for fair payment. He's always willing to cooperate with authorities, but takes care to never make any organized enemies (on either side of the law), and will therefore not take any job which involves working for or against any thieves' guild. Once he takes a contract, he'll see it through, but before accepting a contract, he'll make sure that it's to his advantage.

Build: Halfling rogue 10
Stats (as I actually played him, works out to 36 point buy):
10 Str
18 Dex
12 Con
15 Int
10 Wis
16 Cha

Skill ranks:
Languages: Common, Halfling, Elvish, Goblin
13 Search
13 Disable Device
13 Open Lock
13 Hide
13 Move Silently
13 Tumble
13 Diplomacy
13 Listen
7 Use Rope
4 Profession: Brewing
4 Profession: Cooking
7 Craft: Trapmaking
4 Profession: Farming

ZekeArgo
2008-02-12, 07:53 PM
So wait... you want people to show how well they can write fluff? I mean this is essentially what your asking for, since you've said that the whole "favorite food, favorite sport, favorite whatever" portion, that can be applied to any system regardless to the amount of crunch it has, is the most important part.

I'm just kinda... I dunno what to say. Is this like some kind of junk-waving contest? "Look at all of the history I can put into characters, despite needing the crunch stuff to interact with the system."?

Everything about your post *screams* Stormwind Fallacy, at least in attitude, to tell the truth. The insistence on core with 1 DMG PrC (because you totally can't break the game if you only use core stuff... oh wait...).

So yeah, I have to echo Rutee here: what, exactly, is the point in this exercise?

Rutee
2008-02-12, 08:56 PM
Well, I found a /small/ point. I learned a little bit about my character!

A note, the character I am currently translating comes from what is effectively 190 CE China, after adding some Wuxia. This is fairly important to understand where she's coming from with some of these choices. She's a trickster at heart, and serves her Lady, Xun Ning, with elan and treachery. Treachery aimed at other people, usually, though she has innocent tricks to play on her friends too.


THE USUALS
Name - Lin Zam, a pun in Chinese on Lin Zan, or "Forest's Favor", and Zam, a meaningless phrase I happen to like.
Race - Human
Age - 17
Alignment: CG
Physical Description - She's about 4'11", with a very dark black hair, as well as a tanned asian skin tone (Regrettably, I don't know what that translates into, so I'm afraid you'll just have to imagine a tanned asian yourself). The tan has recently been fading away, a merciful blessing to Zam. She doesn't like being marked as so obviously a farmer's child. She /could/ be beautiful, if she tried ot be, as she often did with her parents, but now that she's her own woman, she doesn't usually dress herself up as a 'proper' woman (Unless her purposes are best served as such.) She most commonly dresses in a dull red peasant's tunic with a skirt, with a commoner's sandals, with more ornate leggings when she must enter battle regalia for some insane reason. Either way, she moves with a sort of fluid grace that belies the padding underneath the tunic, when not overwhelmed with some sort of emotion.

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - Red. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Favorite Food - The palace chef's variant on fried rice. Though that could change sometime.. it's not like she has a very enlightened palette. She's loved everything he's made, so her favorite food is probably "Anything he makes".

Favorite Sport - Go. Not like she has many options in what's effectively 190 CE China :P
Favorite Sport - Go, but she really only plays to indulge Zhong Li. She's too terrible at the actual strategy behind it; She mostly just watches.

Favorite Music - Those weird Sitars her boss had brought in from India. They're unusual, new, and cool. One of the few people she won't use as the butt of her joke are the palace performers. And the chefs... you don't play pranks on the people who fix your food! Everyone else is golden though, including Xun Ning.

Favorite Childhood Toy - Her doll from when she was small, because it was all she had.

Childhood Career Aspiration - None. Women, raised to believe they could have a function outside of housewifery and perhaps farming? What is this madness? Well, if she were raised in Wu Wei, that mighta happened, but.. not anywhere else!

Best Friend - Probably her boss, Xun Ning. She hasn't gotten to interact too much with the other really noteworthy people where she's at, and the only near-lasting tie from her old life was the kindly martial arts instructor, Ironheart Nan.

First Crush - The boy next door, Liu Zhen. He was cute and nice, a shopkeep's son, and really sweet on Zam. She didn't ever think she loved him, but he wouldn't be so bad to spend her life with, relatively. He even wasn't too intrusive on her hobbies, like some potential suitors.. but he wasn't really rich enough. Her parents assured him that he wasn't nearly rich enough to marry her, and that he was to never see her again. While /that/ was broken, their time spent together would never be the same again. Too worrisome and paranoid, those times were.

First Career - None, really, before enterring Xun Ning's service; She left before she was forced into really becoming a trophy wife for some noble, but she knows how to do so, at least. So I suppose, technically, her first career would be "Bodyguard and general troubleshooter for the Most August Kingdom of Wu Wei"..

Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Playing pranks on people, definitely. Especially all the setup that goes /into/ that. And the sneaking around, and the mad giggling after the fact and.. A very, very distant second might be her martial arts training from her master, because he actually taught her that she /could/ be something more then the pale reflection of her husband. While that was always something she

Parents/Family - Slaving away in Han Zhong, muttering about how one of their chances at upward mobility is gone. Very unfun and uninteresting people, who's chief concerns are serving the nobility through crop growth, and trying to get into a better position in life.

Your Personality - Very mischievous. The only real escape she had from boredom was to mess with people for a very long time, and it remained the only entertaining one even after she was taught how to read. It isn't even just tricking people; It's tricking them into lessons that they didn't see coming that's fun; Especially in these dangerous times, where there really /can/ be assassins anywhere; At least some level of caution is needed, even within one's own sanctum! At least, that's what she tells herself when someone gets stuck in her paste trap, or when there's thousands of crickets in the boss' bedroom, raising a racket..

THE BUILD
If you didn't spend at least an hour on the previous sections, go back and work on it some more. Don't make me assign a minimum number of words!

STATS
Put your dice away. Here are Stat Rules
Assume that all stats start at 8.
you have 40 points to spend
Here are the costs. It's Score followed by point costs

Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
40 points after stat advances from levels 4/8. Without those, it's Str. 14.

RACE
Human

CLASS
Swordsage 10. I laugh at your restrictions!

Skills: 117 Skillpoints
Balance: 8 ranks
Climb: 8 ranks
Bluff: 5 ranks
Disguise: 5 ranks
Gather Information: 3 ranks
Hide: 13 ranks
Jump: 8 ranks
Move Silent: 13 ranks
Tumble: 13 ranks
Sense Motive: 13 ranks
Climb: 8 ranks
Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty: 2 Ranks
Knowledge: (Local): 5 ranks

Maneuvers Known:
5th Level: 4
4th Level: 4
3rd Level: 4
2nd Level: 3

STances:
1, 1, 3, 5

2nd Level
Desert Wind:
Fiery Riposte, Flashing Sun
Shadow Hand
Cloak of Deception, Drain Vitality

3rd Level:
Death Mark
Feigned Opening
Strength Draining Strike

4th Level:
Searing Charge
Attack of the Broken Shield
Obscuring Shadow Veil
Hand of Death

5th Level
Dragon's Flame
Mirrored Pursuit
Bloodletting Strike
Shadow Stride

Stances Known: 4
Flame's Blessing
Giant Killing Style
Assassin's Stance
Step of the Dancing Moth

Feats:
Shadow Blade
Deceitful
Adaptive Style
Improved Init.
Stealthy

Weapon of Choice: Long daggers attached to the end of a chain. I guess statistically that comes down to a Spiked Chain?

Edit: WTF? The C/P didn't work. Also, forget Feats, Weapon of Choice, and that there was a Gather Information skill.

gaymer_seattle
2008-02-13, 10:02 AM
So wait... you want people to show how well they can write fluff? I mean this is essentially what your asking for, since you've said that the whole "favorite food, favorite sport, favorite whatever" portion, that can be applied to any system regardless to the amount of crunch it has, is the most important part.

I'm just kinda... I dunno what to say. Is this like some kind of junk-waving contest? "Look at all of the history I can put into characters, despite needing the crunch stuff to interact with the system."?

Everything about your post *screams* Stormwind Fallacy, at least in attitude, to tell the truth. The insistence on core with 1 DMG PrC (because you totally can't break the game if you only use core stuff... oh wait...).

So yeah, I have to echo Rutee here: what, exactly, is the point in this exercise?

I honestly have no idea what Stormwind Fallacy is. I keep hearing "you essentially want to write fluff". My only response to that is: Was Lord of the Rings fluff? I use that particular example only because so many people are familiar with it. But you can choose any really good book of any genre. Pick a character you love or you despise and chances are you will be able to answer a lot of the questions I posted either by the writer flat out telling you, or by some level of inference. I'm not asking you to write "fluff", I'm asking you to write about a character outside the game mechanics, and then using the game mechanics to support the character instead of the other way around.

Zincorium
2008-02-13, 10:21 AM
I honestly have no idea what Stormwind Fallacy is. I keep hearing "you essentially want to write fluff". My only response to that is: Was Lord of the Rings fluff? I use that particular example only because so many people are familiar with it. But you can choose any really good book of any genre. Pick a character you love or you despise and chances are you will be able to answer a lot of the questions I posted either by the writer flat out telling you, or by some level of inference. I'm not asking you to write "fluff", I'm asking you to write about a character outside the game mechanics, and then using the game mechanics to support the character instead of the other way around.

Er, that's what fluff refers to. 'Crunch' is the hard mechanical stuff, BAB, hp and so forth. Fluff is exactly what you've challenged people to write. It doesn't mean that it's somehow extraneous, it means that it's all nebulous and forms much of the character without weighting it down with hard numbers.

So yes, lord of the rings is fluff. No one is checking to see if frodo rolled high enough to succeed at a grapple check versus gollum. If you dislike the term, don't use it, but it's best to at least realize what other people mean by it.

The stormwind fallacy is best summarized as follows:

Mechanical optimization and character depth and flavor, while possibly correlated, do not have a cause and effect relationship.

I am not a bad roleplayer simply because I can build a powerful character. I am not a bad optimizer because I go in depth with my character's motivation and concept. You can be good at both, you can be bad at both, and you can favor one over the other. But as long as the group is having fun there is no wrong way to play.

Ganurath
2008-02-13, 11:08 AM
THE USUALS
Name: Bren
Race: Halfling
Age: 23
Physical Description: A well-built halfling of modest appearances, Bren keeps his hair cut short so that he doesn't need to be distracted by it when he needs to do things. Brown hair, green eyes, clean shaven, I'll get back to this if I remember to after dealing with his equipment.

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - He never actually gave it any thought, but if asked he'd favor black. Not very stimulating visually, which allows one to think easier.
Favorite Food - Trail Bars, since Bren values nutrition over taste.
Favorite Sport - Footracing.
Favorite Sport - Footracing.
Favorite Music - Any soothing, relaxing tune will do.
Favorite Childhood Toy - Skiprocks! He wasn't as good at it as his peers, but he did enjoy it.
Childhood Career Aspiration - Master Thief, of course. Family tradition, and all that. Although it could be said it was less his aspiration than his father's, and he didn't get any ideas to the contrary until later in life.
Best Friend - Ganurath, the half-orc. He's running a town somewhere. He was more of a childhood friend, really; he did an escort job for his family's caravan when some cultists of Zarus threatened it, and showed Bren how to be faster than anyone else.
First Crush - A girl from another caravan, didn't even get her name. He saw her dancing, the wind whipping on her dress... A dervish? She was from another caravan, so he didn't know anything about her. Oh, but they had a night to remember! Best not to go into details, so we'll call it a plot hook and leave it at that.
First Career - His first job was keeping an eye out for trouble for the caravan. Pretty sure that that's every halfling's first job, if you think about it.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Skiprocks was fun, but he liked winning better than losing, so he leaned toward running after meeting Ganurath.
Parents/Family - Parents are presumably alive, and with the caravan still. His father was always encouraging him toward the skillset of a thief, but his mother was more nurturing of what goals Bren wanted to pursue.
Your Personality - Extroverted in conversation but subtle in action. He has a tendency toward pragmaticism when he's adventuring, but when the party gets back to the tavern he's very mellow and eager to be involved in the group. He does what he can to help others when he can afford to, and will almost always go out of his way to help a fellow halfling. He does have stipulations against breaking the law, though: He clearly isn't a master thief of the family tradition, so he shouldn't be breaking the law.

STATS
Str 13 11 Dex 16 18 Con 13 Int 13 Wis 16+2 Cha 13

RACE
Halfling

CLASS
Monk 10

SKILLS
13 ranks in Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot. (Conversationalist, dad wanted him to be a thief, kept an eye out for dangers.)

FEATS:
Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike) "It doesn't matter how hard you hit at your size. It matters where you hit."
Improved Unarmed StrikeB "It saves me the trouble of trying to sneak weapons around."
Stunning Fist B "Why does it matter where? If you drop a foe with a tap, you've won with minimal effort."
Combat Reflexes B "You're going to be contributing by keeping an eye out for danger. That means you always have to be aware of your surroundings."
Dodge "In the end, the important part is that you aren't being hit."
Improved TripB "The best way to defend the caravan is to throw the enemy off balance. In a single act, you thwart the enemy's attack and leave them prone to a counterattack."
Defensive Throw "You may not be good at skiprocks, Bren, but eventually you'll be able to throw something."
Mobility "Running is always enjoyable, and it has the added bonus that it makes you harder to hit." (Preceeds Dodge quote.)

Rutee
2008-02-13, 03:06 PM
I honestly have no idea what Stormwind Fallacy is. I keep hearing "you essentially want to write fluff". My only response to that is: Was Lord of the Rings fluff? I use that particular example only because so many people are familiar with it. But you can choose any really good book of any genre. Pick a character you love or you despise and chances are you will be able to answer a lot of the questions I posted either by the writer flat out telling you, or by some level of inference. I'm not asking you to write "fluff", I'm asking you to write about a character outside the game mechanics, and then using the game mechanics to support the character instead of the other way around.

Except that doesn't prove DnD is a system written for purposes besides gamism. It's just gamism that pretends it can support a non-combat playstyle. In fact, let me stat the same character in nWoD. I'll post both the above character in both DnD and nWoD, with spoiler tags. Combat-related things will be in bold, /as complete character sheets/, skipping equipment. Mind, while I /do/ expect DnD Lin Zam to be more combat based, that's /also/ Wuxia Lin Zam, so there /is/ an in-genre expectation for it as well. But let's watch the difference, shall we?

Small Note: I'm not listing all the relevant dice pools under her specialities (Stealth, Subterfuge, etc), even though I probably should because they'd come up in play far more often then attacks..

nWoD Lin Zam

Strength: 00
Dexterity: 0000
Stamina: 00

Int: 00
Wits: 000
Resolve: 00

Charisma: 00
Manip: 0000
Composure: 0

Abilities:
Mental:

Academics: 0
Investigation: 00
Politics: 0

Physical: 2 BP
Archery (Replacement for Firearms skill, as it's 190 CE): 0
Athletics: 000 (+1 Acrobatics)
Brawl: 0
Larceny: 00
Stealth: 000 (+1 Crowds)
Weaponry: 000

Social: 2 BP
Persuasion: 00 (+1 With cuteness)
Socialize: 00
Streetwise: 00
Subterfuge: 000

Advantages:
Defense: 3

Health: 7

Init:5

Morality: 7

Willpower: 3

Virtue: Fortitude
Vice: Pride

Merits:

Ambidextrous: 000
Two Weapon Fighting: 0
Resources: 00
Status (Wu-Wei officer): 0

Attacks:
Knife Chucks: +1L, Acc: 7.
(When actually on a mission)
Crossbow: 3L, 40/80/160, CBP: 1, Acc: 4

DnD Lin Zam
Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

HP: 59

Class: Swordsage 10. I laugh at your restrictions!

BAB: +7/2
AC: Figuring for nakedness
Normal: 15
Flat-footed: 11
Touch: 15


Saves:
Fort: +4
Will: +8
Ref: +11

Init: +11

Skills: 117 Skillpoints
Balance: +12
Climb: +11
Bluff: +7
Disguise: +9
Forgery: +4
Gather Information: +5
Hide: +17
Jump: +11
Move Silent: +17
Tumble: +17
Sense Motive: +14
Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty: +4
Knowledge: (Local): +7

Specials:
Quick To Act: +3
AC Bonus
Evasion
Sense Magic
Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand; Weapon Focus)
Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand; Insightful Strikes)
Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand; Defensive Stance)

Attacks:
Assuming a +2 Spiked Chain to account for the Knife Chucks..
To Hit: +14, Damage: 1D10 +7 Piercing (Due to Knife Chucks)
Some sort of Crossbow:
To Hit: +11, Damage: 1d8 Piercing

Maneuvers Known:
5th Level: 4
4th Level: 4
3rd Level: 4
2nd Level: 3

STances:
1, 1, 3, 5

2nd Level
Desert Wind:
Fiery Riposte, Flashing Sun
Shadow Hand
Cloak of Deception, Drain Vitality

3rd Level:
Death Mark
Feigned Opening
Strength Draining Strike

4th Level:
Searing Charge
Attack of the Broken Shield
Obscuring Shadow Veil
Hand of Death

5th Level
Dragon's Flame
Mirrored Pursuit
Bloodletting Strike
Shadow Stride

Stances Known: 4
Flame's Blessing
Giant Killing Style
Assassin's Stance
Step of the Dancing Moth

Feats:
Shadow Blade
Deceitful
Adaptive Style
Improved Init.
Weapon Finesse (Spiked Chain)

Is DnD still not gamist, with a combat-focus?

Edit: Hm... actually, I should probably use Weapons of the Gods too, since that's /also/ got a combat-focus for conflict, and yet, still isn't as bulky.. hm..

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-13, 03:11 PM
Is DnD still not gamist, with a combat-focus?

I'd be a bit careful with the forge terminology, I'd stick to just using the term "combat focused" if I were you.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-13, 03:22 PM
I honestly have no idea what Stormwind Fallacy is. I keep hearing "you essentially want to write fluff". My only response to that is: Was Lord of the Rings fluff? I use that particular example only because so many people are familiar with it. But you can choose any really good book of any genre. Pick a character you love or you despise and chances are you will be able to answer a lot of the questions I posted either by the writer flat out telling you, or by some level of inference. I'm not asking you to write "fluff", I'm asking you to write about a character outside the game mechanics, and then using the game mechanics to support the character instead of the other way around.

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not the biggest Lord of the Rings fan, but I'm willing to give it a go:

Aragorn, from Lord of the Rings

Favorite Color: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Food: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Sport: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Sport: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Music: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Childhood Toy: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Childhood Career Aspiration: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Best Friend - Who were they? Where are they now? What do they do for a living? What made them a best friend?: No idea, never comes up in the books.
First Crush - was it first boy/girlfriend of unrequited? Is it still going? How do they cope with your adventuring lifestyle?: No idea, never comes up in the books.
First Career - Farmhand? Smith apprentice? Librarian? (Must justify with skills): No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Was it sports? Games? Hunting? Swimming, Camping? Climbing? Reading? (Be able to support with Skills): No idea, never comes up in the books.
Parents/Family - Alive? Dead? (if so how?) Their careers. Personalities (Kind, tough, Just, Fun). What are they doing today? How did they influence your personality?: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Your Personality - Outgoing? Withdrawn? Studious? Clown? Describe daily habits that justify your personality. Describe how it influences your interactions with others.: Aragorn is a mythic figure, he doesn't actually have a personality to speak of, being an archetype out of a myth cycle. He acts as a king should act, because he's a king. He's apparently in love with an elf named Arwyn, but you couldn't tell.

I get what you're trying to do here, really I do, but as I hope I've just demonstrated "pointless irrelevant detail" is not the same thing as "character". I couldn't name a single fictional character for whom I could answer more than one or two of your questions, and in most cases those answers would be to the "what about your parents" question and the answer would be "they were killed, providing me with my motivation."

Also, you're not supporting character with mechanics here, you're doing the exact opposite: by forcing people to pay for skills to represent their character's leisure activities you're making some characters *literally* impossible to represent ("I'm a half-orcish fighter, I'm not very bright, but I enjoy swimming, climbing, and playing the violin. I also learned a little Elvish from my mentor and had a bit of a troublesome childhood, so I've learned to bluff my way out of trouble. Unfortunately I only get four skill points at first level, so I am literally incapable of representing this")

Rutee
2008-02-13, 03:45 PM
I'd be a bit careful with the forge terminology, I'd stick to just using the term "combat focused" if I were you.

Eh. That'd be wisest, since I don't even really refer to the GNS 'model' when I use them, merely the intentions behind the work. But then, I think people can intuit what I mean pretty well, if they're not also people who read the Forge.

Jayabalard
2008-02-13, 03:54 PM
The system, however, is very clearly meant to accommodate hack n' slash and combat first, not roleplay. The rules for advancement primarily improve you as a combatant. Rules aren't necessary or even advantageous (imo) for roleplay, so it's natural that there are more rules for combat than for roleplaying.

Coming into a thread like this and proclaiming that "you're doing it wrong" is akin to going onto the "Simple questions by RAW" thread and arguing interpretations based on rule 0.

back on topic: I'm a bit tied up today and tomorrow but I see if I can post a character some time this weekend.

Rutee
2008-02-13, 04:01 PM
The only person arguing that a person's intentions were wrong has been the OP. However, the OP has also positted that DnD is not a combat-heavy numbers game. While I won't argue you /could/ do something else with it, it's still intended for use as a combat-heavy numbers game.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-13, 04:04 PM
The only person arguing that a person's intentions were wrong has been the OP. However, the OP has also positted that DnD is not a combat-heavy numbers game. While I won't argue you /could/ do something else with it, it's still intended for use as a combat-heavy numbers game.

I don't think he's actually said that D&D isn't combat heavy (in my experience the only people who say this are people who only play D&D - get them to elaborate and they say something like "Yeah, D&D totally isn't combat heavy. My group only has, like, one or two combats a session"). He just seems to be saying that you should use mechanics to support character, rather than vice versa. I don't agree with his definition of "character" but he's hardly doomed to failure.

Rutee
2008-02-13, 04:08 PM
He doesn't in the thread's first post, but does later on, like when he justifies its lack of combat-focus by stating one could give XP for non-combat encounters, etc. And no, you're not doomed to failure so much as "It's really hard."

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-13, 04:09 PM
Combat is integral part of almost every RPG. It is necessary component of story telling: Conflict. Man vs Man, Man vs Beast, etc.

Aaargh!

No. No no no no no no no.

No.

Combat != Conflict.

Some guy you don't care about punching some other guy you don't care about in the face isn't conflict. Conflict is when you give a crap about the outcome, and for some reason *other* than having your fantasy altar-ego on the line. Combat is only Conflict if you're fighting *for* something.

Sorry, but the "Combat is Conflict, Conflict is Essential in Storytelling" argument really annoys the hell out of me. There is nothing wrong with enjoying combat for its own sake, but pretending that it's got something to do with "storytelling" is just apologia.

Rutee
2008-02-13, 04:10 PM
To be fair, the most common form of conflict in fiction /is/ combat. But you're correct in saying that combat itself isn't necessary for conflict.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-13, 04:16 PM
To be fair, the most common form of conflict in fiction /is/ combat. But you're correct in saying that combat itself isn't necessary for conflict.

No, the most common form of conflict in fiction is not combat. The most common form of conflict in fiction, if I had to guess, is probably "the individual versus society" with "good versus evil" a close second. Combat is one way in which conflict can be expressed.

Vexxation
2008-02-13, 04:16 PM
Aaargh!

No. No no no no no no no.

No.

Combat != Conflict.

Some guy you don't care about punching some other guy you don't care about in the face isn't conflict. Conflict is when you give a crap about the outcome, and for some reason *other* than having your fantasy altar-ego on the line. Combat is only Conflict if you're fighting *for* something.

Sorry, but the "Combat is Conflict, Conflict is Essential in Storytelling" argument really annoys the hell out of me. There is nothing wrong with enjoying combat for its own sake, but pretending that it's got something to do with "storytelling" is just apologia.

Well, I think that technically there can be no combat without conflict. Because if you weren't conflicting, why would you fight? So combat = conflict. But conflict != combat. It's like the old "All Zooks are Tooks, but all Tooks are not Zooks" thing from logic tests.
Other than that, you're right. Combat is a common form of conflict, but heated dialog or challenges to contests can also be conflicts. Heck, technically, building a shelter to survive the cold is Man v. Nature.

Rutee
2008-02-13, 04:18 PM
No, the most common form of conflict in fiction is not combat. The most common form of conflict in fiction, if I had to guess, is probably "the individual versus society" with "good versus evil" a close second. Combat is one way in which conflict can be expressed.

Ah, you mean in the thematic sense, not in the more direct and overt one. Fair enough.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-13, 04:24 PM
Well, I think that technically there can be no combat without conflict. Because if you weren't conflicting, why would you fight? So combat = conflict. But conflict != combat. It's like the old "All Zooks are Tooks, but all Tooks are not Zooks" thing from logic tests.
Other than that, you're right. Combat is a common form of conflict, but heated dialog or challenges to contests can also be conflicts. Heck, technically, building a shelter to survive the cold is Man v. Nature.

Conflict can mean two things, it can mean "the opposition of two individuals or forces" in which case Combat is Conflict by definition. It can also mean "the tension providing the driving force of a narrative." That's the kind of Conflict people mean when they say "conflict is essential in storytelling". Conflating the two is just shameless handwringing by people who won't admit that they just like a good fight scene.

mabriss lethe
2008-02-13, 04:28 PM
The Most Entertaining Way to make a character...Do it backwards.

Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to pick Race, class and 1st level bonus feat at random, then build from there. I don't have time to do much before work, so I'll just leave you with the starting place I select.

So...
Race: Darn it, Human again. Oh well, nothing exotic at the moment.
Class: Ranger
1st level feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency..Looks like I got something exotic after all.

I have to hobble off to work now, but I'll be working on the results of this when I get home.

gaymer_seattle
2008-02-13, 07:41 PM
When I initially started this little endeavor, it was honestly just a challenge. A set of arbitrary rules to define a different way of getting a result. It was vastly my own little passive-aggressive way of responding to every question I see in here that resembles:

"Can anyone tell me the best Feat and PrC combination to make Whoever of Whatever from Dragonball Z?"

I really did not expect an existential debate about the true nature of D & D. It really was meant to ask people to approach character generation differently.

Dan Hemmens - I see your point about Aragorn. Now arguably, i have never read all of the Lord of the Rings or the other various supplemental books Tolkien wrote, so there may be buried in there somewhere these details. I would put good money that while they never showed up in a book or in the movie that Tolkien could have answered them though. I, of course, would put money on it because he is dead and there is no way to really prove it.

Rutee I can never resist a good argument. I can't say that, from your point of view, that you are wrong. Likewise, I can't say, from my point of view, that you are right.

Long run is though, you do have some good arguments and I will concede that in RAW mechanical purity, that D & D is built to be based on combat. I will maintain my point, that the essential truth of RPGs are that they are about Role Playing and Story. As far as games go, their strongest asset is that the terrain, the atmosphere, the cast are limited only by players and DMs. That regardless of how combat oriented the system is (based on the knowledge of RPG systems I have played) that there is always room to make the game about something more than poking non-humans with pointy metal.

Zincorium I understand that literal translation of what you are saying, but I think that by associating the word "fluff" with story you take a chance of demeaning it. The love story in LotR is technically fluff. We don't need to know about Arwen and Aragorn. It ultimately has nothing to do with any battle or the ultimate defeat of Sauron. But it makes the characters more interesting when we know what they are passionate about, what they love, what they are willing to live and die for. I think that even in D&D a character that throws themself into the "Pit" to save the lives of everyone else, even though they are doomed, is more interesting than being simply worn down countless random encounters.

To everyone else who made the effort, thank you. I'll post mine tomorrow

Zincorium
2008-02-13, 07:58 PM
Zincorium I understand that literal translation of what you are saying, but I think that by associating the word "fluff" with story you take a chance of demeaning it.

If you think so, by all means, but it is an accepted and commonly used terms, heck, it's in the official 'Acronyms, abbreviations, and terms' thread that's stickied at the top of this very forum. And we're not using it to demean, and making the assumption we are is going to make you a bitter old guy very quickly.


The love story in LotR is technically fluff. We don't need to know about Arwen and Aragorn. It ultimately has nothing to do with any battle or the ultimate defeat of Sauron.

The part I think you're missing is that all of that stuff is fluff. Every single word, whether vital to the plot or extraneous, is fluff by the definition we use.


But it makes the characters more interesting when we know what they are passionate about, what they love, what they are willing to live and die for. I think that even in D&D a character that throws themself into the "Pit" to save the lives of everyone else, even though they are doomed, is more interesting than being simply worn down countless random encounters.

Which is why most people I've played with have characters who do get to this level of depth. You don't see that on this forum is because, 95% or more of the time, the fluff someone comes up with is perfectly fine and doesn't need help.

Most of the questions on the forum are mechanical because there are better or worse choices to be made regarding number-crunching effectiveness, where there generally aren't with personality and backstory.

Rutee
2008-02-13, 08:29 PM
Long run is though, you do have some good arguments and I will concede that in RAW mechanical purity, that D & D is built to be based on combat. I will maintain my point, that the essential truth of RPGs are that they are about Role Playing and Story. As far as games go, their strongest asset is that the terrain, the atmosphere, the cast are limited only by players and DMs. That regardless of how combat oriented the system is (based on the knowledge of RPG systems I have played) that there is always room to make the game about something more than poking non-humans with pointy metal.

You are exalting your reason for them above those of others. It's one thing to say "This is what I like best". It's another to say "This is best". Your reason is actually the same as mine, it's just not right to say "This is the reason the hobby exists". Further, I haven't argued that one can conceivably take a system wherever they please. I've merely contested your claim that the system isn't, well, what it is.

horseboy
2008-02-13, 10:29 PM
Are you complaining that D&D characters are shallow? Well, Duh!
I find that your best chances of "deep" characters are either systems designed to have deep characters or if you've got a Rich Setting. A setting filled with character hooks will make it much easier for players to make deeper characters.
I know it's not D&D, but I did create it because I missed D&D paladins, so I created one, with a slight twist.

Name: Kal’tor Shevk T’etrick
Race: T’skrang, Discipline: Warrior , Circle: 1, Height: 6’, Weight: 230#, Tail 6’4” Age: 12
Physical Description: Blood red scales. His back is covered in a large black pattern. The pattern continues up his neck and top of the head. Small black “freckles” come down his eyes and along his snout. Egg tooth shaped like a heart.
Dexterity: 15/6 Defenses: Armour Damage: Karma
Strength: 15/6 Physical: 8 Physical: 8 Death Rating: 38 Current: 6
Toughness: 15/6 Spell: 7 Mystic: 1 Uncon. Rating: 30 Maximum: 25
Perception: 11/5 Social: 8 Wound Threshold: 10
Willpower: 10/5 Capacity: Carry: 140#, Lifting: 280#
Charisma: 15/6 Move: Full: 60, Combat: 30 Recovery Tests: 3

Talents Skills
Acrobatic Strike: Strain 1 2/6/8 2d6 Artisan: Dance 1/6/7 d12
Air Dance: Strain1 1/6/7 d12 Artisan: Poetry 1/6/7 d12
Karma Ritual: 1 Knowledge: Psychology 1/5/6 d10
Melee Weapons: Disc Action 1/6/7 d12 Knowledge: Passions 1/5/6 d10
Unarmed Combat: Disc Action 2/6/8 2d6 Knowledge: Legends and Heroes
Wood Skin Karma Disc Action 1/6/7 d12 2/5/7 d12
R/W Language: 2/6/8 2d6
Weapons: Speak Language: 2/6/8 2d6
Tail: 0/6/6 d10 Swimming 1/6/7 d12
Broad sword: 5/6/11 d10+d8 Flirting: 1/6/7 d12
Dagger: 1/6/7 d12

Armour: Hide 5/1
Shield: Footman’s 3/0

Gear: Traveler’s garb, Patterned Shirt, Merchant breeches, Adventure’s kit, Whetstone, 10’ rope, 1 week trail rations, “V’arlmat” the plush eel.

Silver 18
Copper 8

Personality
Surface: Sappy, Corny
Hidden: Protective, Honourable


The bishi bastard spawn of Pepe Le pew and InuYasha, raised by Silverbolt.

T’etrick’s nial is from the Tylon River. As such they are constantly in the middle of the conflicts between K’tenshin and T’kambrain Aropagois. They have been trying to keep their heads down, largely because they themselves haven’t made up their minds which way to align.

Ara’kat’cha, T’etrick’s chaida, was a troubadour. It was decided to give the young lizard to him because of its “kiss of Astendar” egg tooth. Shortly after it started speaking, though, it became painfully clear that the young thing was completely tone-deaf. It was brave, strong, nimble and healthy, but it couldn’t hold a note when it was tied into both hands. Near the end of its childhood, Ara’kat’cha spent several years on the nial’s riverboat. This left young Kal’tor in the constant bustle as well as hearing different stories and tales from all over. Soon it began to see the reoccurring pattern played out time and again. It decided it needed to be a hero. After coming to his realization, he then had to face his first “most difficult challenge”. Either he could wait until he came home one day only to find his village destroyed, or leave the small town, never to look back. Since he loves his family he took the later.
He is painfully genre savvy, and restless even by t’skrang standards. Heroes do things; supporting characters sit around and read stuff. He often refers to things and people in theatric terms. He also is a touchy feely type, fond of group hugs.

Personal View: Heroes are the chosen of Astendar. Those are the ones that are sung about and written of. As such, I must be a hero to embody Astendar’s glory. For that I will play the role of the warrior. I will be the stalwart refselenika that the great play of haropas has cast me in. I will protect my friends and never betray them. I will be heroic, as benefits the hero. I will defend love from those that seek to subvert or usurp its beauty. As benefits Astendar I will protect love and offer it any support that I’m able. I will protect the poet, the playwright, the dreamer; they are who will tell my tale.


Jik’harra: T’etrick has the t’skrang acrophobia, as well as spiders.
Kiatsu: T’etrick has yet to address his fear of spiders, as he does not recognize it as such.
P’skarrot: A Hero to the end, T’etrick will accept any challenge for any challenge set before him is a challenge created by Astendar to test his mettle.

That's what his file looks like. To answer FASA's your questions:
Favorite Color: While it's not his favorite, he tends to wear a lot of green for contrast. (Barsaive doesn't have Christmas, so it's okay.)
Favorite Food: Hmm, going to go with gumbo.
Favorite Sport: Probably the equivalent of Water Polo, maybe shuffle board.
Favorite Music: What he can dance to.
Favorite Childhood toy: Still has it.
Childhood Career aspiration: Before it realized it wanted to be a hero, probably riverboat captain.
Best Friend: It spent a lot of time around beings older than it was. As such probably never had a "best friend" but several mentors.
First crush: Since it's races doesn't have a gender until it's 10 and he's 12 now, hasn't had one. Of course, since he thinks himself a celibate hero, yet is on his way to becoming a questor of the passion of art and love, I'm sure I'll get hit with something.
First Career: By day, deck scrubber. By night, a back up dancer.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity: The only way to get it to sit still was to tell it a story.
Parents/Family: Still alive, as far as he knows. Probably has a new hatchling he's watching over.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-14, 05:10 AM
Dan Hemmens - I see your point about Aragorn. Now arguably, i have never read all of the Lord of the Rings or the other various supplemental books Tolkien wrote, so there may be buried in there somewhere these details. I would put good money that while they never showed up in a book or in the movie that Tolkien could have answered them though. I, of course, would put money on it because he is dead and there is no way to really prove it.

That's fair enough. Sorry if I came across as snippy, it's just that I genuinely feel that the "arbitrary questions" approach to characterisation has some problems. I think we're probably coming at this from different backgrounds. I can see that as an old-school D&D veteran you'd be sick of people who never think about anything other than their next feat combo. I'm a White Wolf survivor, and as a result I'm sick of people who never think about how their character's intimately detailed and tragic personal history is going to relate to something that's fun to have in a game.

There's a really interesting article somewhere on teh intarweb which draws the distinction between "character" and "characteristics". What you provide is a list of characteristics, I don't think that's the same as character. Character has to be contextualised. "What's your favourite colour" isn't an important question for a character in - say - the Lord of the Rings, but "what would tempt you to take the One Ring" most certainly is.


Rutee I can never resist a good argument. I can't say that, from your point of view, that you are wrong. Likewise, I can't say, from my point of view, that you are right.

Long run is though, you do have some good arguments and I will concede that in RAW mechanical purity, that D & D is built to be based on combat. I will maintain my point, that the essential truth of RPGs are that they are about Role Playing and Story. As far as games go, their strongest asset is that the terrain, the atmosphere, the cast are limited only by players and DMs. That regardless of how combat oriented the system is (based on the knowledge of RPG systems I have played) that there is always room to make the game about something more than poking non-humans with pointy metal.


Sorry to do the same bit of bolding as Rutee. My point is slightly different though. The problem with saying that "RPGs are about role playing and story" is that everybody defines "role playing" and "story" differently.

The Forge, for example defines "story" as whatever Ron Edwards enjoys playing "conscious engagement with an abstract theme". White Wolf games tend to define "story" as "the plot the GM makes up for the players to interact with". I tend to define "story" as "what the player characters care about and what they do when those things are threatened".

Similarly some people view "role playing" as meaning "pretending to be your character" others view it as "putting up with crap from your DM" others view it as "portraying your character in an entertaining way".

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-14, 05:18 AM
The love story in LotR is technically fluff. We don't need to know about Arwen and Aragorn. It ultimately has nothing to do with any battle or the ultimate defeat of Sauron. But it makes the characters more interesting when we know what they are passionate about, what they love, what they are willing to live and die for.

Ah, didn't notice this bit.

Yes, you're absolutely right on both counts. Yes, it makes characters more interesting to know what they are willing to live and die for. Yes, the love story in LotR is still fluff. It's not even a love story, it's just a mythic theme. Aragorn's "love" for Arwen does not motivate him in any meaningful way. He does not confront Sauron for her, he confronts Sauron because he's the Heir of Isildur.

None of your questions actually relate to "what the characters are willing to live and die for", they relate to arbitrary factoids. Furthermore, in 99% of D&D games "what you are willing to live and die for" isn't particularly relevant, since you're *still* probably going to wind up buying it killing goblins in some cave somewhere for a handful of copper pieces.

People always assume that the onus of characterisation is on the players, it isn't, it's on the GM. If players are being given arbitrary missions to complete for arbitrary rewards, then it doesn't matter how much character background you've written, you're still just a puppet. Knowing what my character is willing to live or die for is important *only* if the GM is *actually* willing to let me live or die for it.

Rutee
2008-02-14, 05:19 AM
The Forge, for example defines "story" as whatever Ron Edwards enjoys playing "conscious engagement with an abstract theme". White Wolf games tend to define "story" as "the plot the GM makes up for the players to interact with". I tend to define "story" as "what the player characters care about and what they do when those things are threatened".

If you're correct, I need to examine my reading habits sometime before I finish law school, because I have completely missed that after an ungodly number of books. I'm pretty sure what I do when reading leisure is different from what I do when reading academic or (eventually) professional, but I really need to like, make damn sure NOW >.>

Rutee
2008-02-14, 05:32 AM
People always assume that the onus of characterisation is on the players, it isn't, it's on the GM. If players are being given arbitrary missions to complete for arbitrary rewards, then it doesn't matter how much character background you've written, you're still just a puppet. Knowing what my character is willing to live or die for is important *only* if the GM is *actually* willing to let me live or die for it.

I'm going to provide a somewhat longer-winded, but I hope more eloquent (What else is the point of being long-winded?) support of this.

From: http://www.lumpley.com/hardcore.html There will be spoilers too.
A Small Thing About Character Death plus a mini-manifesto

Along the precise same lines:

When a character dies in a novel or a movie, it's a) to establish what's at stake, b) to escalate the conflict, or c) to make a final statement. Or perhaps some combination. It's never by accident or for no good reason, unlike in real life.

I've been thinking about examples. Obi-wan Kenobi in Star Wars? This, his death says, is worth fighting for. Boromir in the Fellowship of the Ring? The right death redeems betrayal. Brad and wha'sname at the beginning of Pulp Fiction? The cop in Reservoir Dogs? All those random people in Total Recall? Tara in Buffy? To escalate conflict, plain and easy. Leon and Gary Oldman's character in the Professional? Final statementville, but Matilda's family? Escalation plus some stakes.

So that seems pretty solid to me.

Before I go on (I'm sure you've already figured out what I'm going to say anyway) but before I go on, my mini-manifesto.

First: if what you get out of roleplaying is a) the accomplishment you get from rising to the challenge, not letting yourself or your friends down, learning the rules and just frickin' owning them, or else b) the satisfaction of peer-appreciated wish-fulfillment, you're off the hook. None of what I say applies to you, you're happy.

If, on the other hand, what you want out of roleplaying is suspense, resolution, story, theme, character, meaning - listen up.

Second: conventional RPGs can't give it to you. I'm sorry.

So, third: that stuff you want? You get that by approaching roleplaying as though it were a form of fiction, a form of literature. All that stuff is well known to fiction writers and they can tell us how to do it. Roleplaying isn't like writing, just like singing pub songs in a pub isn't like composing songs, so the skills themselves are different. But the same structure underlies both. You can't ignore the structure and still get consistenly good results.

So that's my mini-manifesto and here's character death in RPGs:

PCs, like protagonists in fiction, don't get to die to show what's at stake or to escalate conflict. They only get to die to make final statements.

Character death can never be a possible outcome moment-to-moment. Having your character's survival be uncertain doesn't contribute to suspense, as above, just like we don't actually ever believe that Bruce Willis' character in Die Hard will die. Instead, character death should fit into what it will cost. This thing, is it worth dying for? Obi-wan Kenobi and Leon say yes.

Here's a piece of text from Dogs in the Vineyard:

Also, occasionally, your character will get killed. The conflict resolution rules will keep it from being pointless or arbitrary: it'll happen only when you've chosen to stake your character's life on something. Staking your character's life means risking it, is all.

In fiction, You never die for something you haven't staked your life on.

Obviously, playing like that isn't the only way. But it's a way, and it never really hurts to listen to what someone's got to say on the subject, if you ask me. Though it was pretty arrogant tos ay "Conventional RPGs can't give it to you". Granted that it's Rule 0 a bit, but still, saying they /can't/ seems to supersede rule 0..

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-14, 06:16 AM
If you're correct, I need to examine my reading habits sometime before I finish law school, because I have completely missed that after an ungodly number of books. I'm pretty sure what I do when reading leisure is different from what I do when reading academic or (eventually) professional, but I really need to like, make damn sure NOW >.>

It's never made explicit, but it's strongly implied in most of the WW material I've read. Most obviously, the GM in WW games is called "the Storyteller" which immediately implies that he/she has more control over the story than anybody else.

Then the "Storytelling" advice in - say - Vampire: the Requiem contains a lot of advice on creating a *story* that will get your characters interested, which you are advised to create independently of the actual PCs. The example given in the book is "the rise of the new prince" - your story is about a new Prince coming to power in the city. The PCs are there to interact with your story, not to tell their own.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-14, 06:27 AM
I'm going to provide a somewhat longer-winded, but I hope more eloquent (What else is the point of being long-winded?) support of this.

From: http://www.lumpley.com/hardcore.html There will be spoilers too.
A Small Thing About Character Death plus a mini-manifesto

Along the precise same lines:

When a character dies in a novel or a movie, it's a) to establish what's at stake, b) to escalate the conflict, or c) to make a final statement. Or perhaps some combination. It's never by accident or for no good reason, unlike in real life.

I've been thinking about examples. Obi-wan Kenobi in Star Wars? This, his death says, is worth fighting for. Boromir in the Fellowship of the Ring? The right death redeems betrayal. Brad and wha'sname at the beginning of Pulp Fiction? The cop in Reservoir Dogs? All those random people in Total Recall? Tara in Buffy? To escalate conflict, plain and easy. Leon and Gary Oldman's character in the Professional? Final statementville, but Matilda's family? Escalation plus some stakes.

So that seems pretty solid to me.

Before I go on (I'm sure you've already figured out what I'm going to say anyway) but before I go on, my mini-manifesto.

First: if what you get out of roleplaying is a) the accomplishment you get from rising to the challenge, not letting yourself or your friends down, learning the rules and just frickin' owning them, or else b) the satisfaction of peer-appreciated wish-fulfillment, you're off the hook. None of what I say applies to you, you're happy.

If, on the other hand, what you want out of roleplaying is suspense, resolution, story, theme, character, meaning - listen up.

Second: conventional RPGs can't give it to you. I'm sorry.

So, third: that stuff you want? You get that by approaching roleplaying as though it were a form of fiction, a form of literature. All that stuff is well known to fiction writers and they can tell us how to do it. Roleplaying isn't like writing, just like singing pub songs in a pub isn't like composing songs, so the skills themselves are different. But the same structure underlies both. You can't ignore the structure and still get consistenly good results.

So that's my mini-manifesto and here's character death in RPGs:

PCs, like protagonists in fiction, don't get to die to show what's at stake or to escalate conflict. They only get to die to make final statements.

Character death can never be a possible outcome moment-to-moment. Having your character's survival be uncertain doesn't contribute to suspense, as above, just like we don't actually ever believe that Bruce Willis' character in Die Hard will die. Instead, character death should fit into what it will cost. This thing, is it worth dying for? Obi-wan Kenobi and Leon say yes.

Here's a piece of text from Dogs in the Vineyard:

Also, occasionally, your character will get killed. The conflict resolution rules will keep it from being pointless or arbitrary: it'll happen only when you've chosen to stake your character's life on something. Staking your character's life means risking it, is all.

In fiction, You never die for something you haven't staked your life on.

Obviously, playing like that isn't the only way. But it's a way, and it never really hurts to listen to what someone's got to say on the subject, if you ask me. Though it was pretty arrogant tos ay "Conventional RPGs can't give it to you". Granted that it's Rule 0 a bit, but still, saying they /can't/ seems to supersede rule 0..

Vince Baker is a prick. He's also wrong. He's does, however, kind of have a point.

I'd also point out that the "conventional RPGs" he's talking about aren't D&D, he's pretty much explicitly talking about White Wolf. The World of Darkness is the bete noir of the Forge, because it claims to be a "Storytelling" game but defines "Story" in a way that Ron Edwards doesn't agree with.

In Dogs in the Vineyard your character will only die if he gets too much "Fallout" as the result of a "Conflict". The big difference between DitV "Fallout" and traditional RPG "Damage" is that in DitV you can always choose *not* to take Fallout. Unless the GM decides that somebody shoots at you, which he is totally allowed to do. (Did I mention I really don't like Dogs in the Vineyard).

To express it in D&D terms, the way DitV works is roughly like this: when you get into a fight (or an argument, or anything else, it all uses the same system), everything goes more or less as normal, except that when your character gets hit, you get a choice. You can either take the damage, or you can say "sorry, this is too hairy for me" and not. What this basically means is that you always get the option to say "sorry, this isn't worth getting killed over". This is, in fact, a big difference from conventional RPGs, and it's not just something you can houserule into an existing RPG.

My issue with this system is that I find it disingenuous. I think it forces players to pretend that they deeply care about something if they're ever to get anything done, and that annoys me. It also has the "aah, do you see, you *chose* to do that" aspect which I always find frustrating.

Rutee
2008-02-14, 06:33 AM
That would explain why there was such a Metaplot, at least. I suppose by the time I found the WoD system I was so entrenched in my concepts of trying to tell stories as a group, with the GM as the first among equals, rather then some genuinely exalted position, that I'd never bother trying to read into their intentions.. hah! How amusing. This might explain some of the animosity people have towards WoD (Also, roll to cross the street).


I'd also point out that the "conventional RPGs" he's talking about aren't D&D, he's pretty much explicitly talking about White Wolf. The World of Darkness is the bete noir of the Forge, because it claims to be a "Storytelling" game but defines "Story" in a way that Ron Edwards doesn't agree with.
I read it as "Everything that doesn't explicitly guarantee the player's withdrawal", personally. Personally, I'm not on the Forge community at /all/. I read the articles, took them as inspiration to examine my hobby in greater depth. If they wanna be Ron Edwards groupies, whatever.


and it's not just something you can houserule into an existing RPG.
Houserule, no. But if the GM agrees that this is too worthless a place to die (THe above example you listed of the Goblin Cave), you can stabilize at negs, instead of dying. Period. Even at -10. If everyone goes down, instead of being a TPK, you can have an escape sequence.

..Of course I question what you're /doing/ there in such a system from a story standpoint, but the example had no context for a reason.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-14, 06:44 AM
That would explain why there was such a Metaplot, at least. I suppose by the time I found the WoD system I was so entrenched in my concepts of trying to tell stories as a group, with the GM as the first among equals, rather then some genuinely exalted position, that I'd never bother trying to read into their intentions.. hah! How amusing. This might explain some of the animosity people have towards WoD (Also, roll to cross the street).

The WoD gets shot by both sides. Conventional roleplayers see it as pretentious and arsey with all its blather about "epiphanies" and "roll-playing" and acting like the only other RPGs that exist are Kick-Down-the-Door D&D. On the other hand Indie-RPGers see them as teh evil because they aren't "Narrativist". Ron Edwards actually went as far as to say that White Wolf games literally cause brain damage

Basically White Wolf made a lot of enemies when they put the word "Storytelling" on the front of their games, because - as evidenced by this very thread - pretty much all roleplayers want to claim the word "Story" for themselves. For what it's worth, I think that the Forge definition of "Story" is a gigantic crock: a moral discussion isn't a story, it's just a moral discussion. But that's sort of the problem.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-14, 06:53 AM
Okay, I'll admit that I'm not the biggest Lord of the Rings fan, but I'm willing to give it a go:

Aragorn, from Lord of the Rings

Favorite Color: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Food: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Sport: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Sport: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Music: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Childhood Toy: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Childhood Career Aspiration: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Best Friend - Who were they? Where are they now? What do they do for a living? What made them a best friend?: No idea, never comes up in the books.
First Crush - was it first boy/girlfriend of unrequited? Is it still going? How do they cope with your adventuring lifestyle?: No idea, never comes up in the books.
First Career - Farmhand? Smith apprentice? Librarian? (Must justify with skills): No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Was it sports? Games? Hunting? Swimming, Camping? Climbing? Reading? (Be able to support with Skills): No idea, never comes up in the books.
Parents/Family - Alive? Dead? (if so how?) Their careers. Personalities (Kind, tough, Just, Fun). What are they doing today? How did they influence your personality?: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Your Personality - Outgoing? Withdrawn? Studious? Clown? Describe daily habits that justify your personality. Describe how it influences your interactions with others.: Aragorn is a mythic figure, he doesn't actually have a personality to speak of, being an archetype out of a myth cycle. He acts as a king should act, because he's a king. He's apparently in love with an elf named Arwyn, but you couldn't tell.

Or you could possibly say, from a reasonable LotR fan who hasn't read it for a few years:

Aragorn, from Lord of the Rings

Favorite Color: ???
Favorite Food: Probably something Elven since he was riased in Rivendell (inferred)
Favorite Sport: He's a Dunedain, so I'd imagine just going out and exploring, maybe cross-country running. (Inferred)
Favorite Sport: Why's this in twice?
Favorite Music: I'm pretty sure he's appreciative of the Elven singing that goes on.
Favorite Childhood Toy: ??? Elves?
Childhood Career Aspiration: As the son of the Chief of the Dunedain, he would have been raised to aticipate the time when he took over. (Inferred)
Best Friend - Fairly sure it's Elladan and Elrohir, or maybe one of the other rangers that turns up; also a good friend of Gandalf. (Damrod? Don't know.) (Inferred)
First Crush - Raised in Rivendell, so presumably it was Arwen.
First Career - Ranger of the North.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Rangeriness, I think he was quite a fan of reading, too.
Parents/Family - His father's dead, hence he is the Chief of the Dunedain. Much of his formative time was spent in Rivendell, so Elrond and the elves are like a foster family to him.
Your Personality - He's an archetype, but an archetype with a personality. Tends to mysteriousness, very fair but with a tendency to quite dry humour (at least that's my interpretation). Loyal to his friends, but dangerous to enemies, and prepared to put the needs of others before his own. All that's the archetype, but it's an archetypal personality.

Rutee
2008-02-14, 07:00 AM
The WoD gets shot by both sides. Conventional roleplayers see it as pretentious and arsey with all its blather about "epiphanies" and "roll-playing" and acting like the only other RPGs that exist are Kick-Down-the-Door D&D. On the other hand Indie-RPGers see them as teh evil because they aren't "Narrativist". Ron Edwards actually went as far as to say that White Wolf games literally cause brain damage
Well, isn't that special. I'm certainly glad I don't pay attention to their community now. I'm sure some of that disdain also comes from playing Indie RPGs. In my limitted experience with it, Indie culture tends to create animosity towards anything with an established label on it.


Basically White Wolf made a lot of enemies when they put the word "Storytelling" on the front of their games, because - as evidenced by this very thread - pretty much all roleplayers want to claim the word "Story" for themselves. For what it's worth, I think that the Forge definition of "Story" is a gigantic crock: a moral discussion isn't a story, it's just a moral discussion. But that's sort of the problem.
Meh. I couldn't care less what someone's specific definition is, I think. I typically try to keep people from getting too "My way is the only good way", I'd like to think. I know what I strive for, I just don't care about putting it under a quick definition (Though if you put a gun to my head I'd say Narratavist).

helium3
2008-02-14, 11:58 AM
People always assume that the onus of characterisation is on the players, it isn't, it's on the GM. If players are being given arbitrary missions to complete for arbitrary rewards, then it doesn't matter how much character background you've written, you're still just a puppet. Knowing what my character is willing to live or die for is important *only* if the GM is *actually* willing to let me live or die for it.

The genesis of the OP is that in our group (myself and gaymer_seattle's) I've been trying to run a D&D game that's heavily focused on combat (since that's what D&D is all about after all) but that also asks just that question and attempts to answer it in a meaningful way.

For the most part the players have taken to it like ducks to water, though it's obvious they still aren't sure what to do now that the DM isn't reading boxed text and telling them what "module" he'll be running beforehand. That's okay though. This early in the game (three sessions in) all they need to do is start asking that question. The answers will come later.

There's one problem player though who is having serious difficulty with the idea that his character can be more than just the sum of the stats on its sheet. It's been a very frustrating situation to deal with and if it weren't for the fact that all the other players are enjoying the change in playstyle, I'd go back to the old "now that we've finished adventure three of Age of Worms I think I'll run Eyes of the Lich Queen for a bit" style of play.

So, I think what gaymer_seattle is trying to do is create a discussion about how you get D&D players to think of their characters as more than a pile of stats when they're currently doing this because they've been TRAINED to think that way.

kamikasei
2008-02-14, 12:58 PM
So, I think what gaymer_seattle is trying to do is create a discussion about how you get D&D players to think of their characters as more than a pile of stats when they're currently doing this because they've been TRAINED to think that way.

Thing is, he didn't ask for help. He basically implied that the whole board were like your problem player, and said "hey! Learn better! Let me watch how you do it!"

Nero24200
2008-02-14, 03:24 PM
Here we go. This was a character I actually used. He is, without question, the most well developed and interesting character I ever made. By the way, eveything in his history after being freed was RP'ed IG.

Name: Kaddaz Leof
Age: 21
Race: Human
Physical Description: Kaddaz is fairly tall for humans (6’3), with a muscular build to match. He has messy hair which is a light brown colour and dark blue eyes. The most noticeable trait about his appearance (if his helm is off) is that his face is covered with tiny scars, and his back, whip scars.

Short History: Kaddaz was born as a drow slave in the underdark. Life was a constant struggle for him, and what seemed like place that couldn’t get worse eventually did. When he reached his teens, he declared his feelings for another slave, one whom shared the same slave pen as him. When one of the drow slavers, a female who was actually quite taken with Kaddaz, discovered this, she had the slave girl tortured and killed before him.
As more time passed, Kaddaz began to think about how he wanted the power to strike down the drow, and protect those he cared for, like the slave girl whom he loved. His prayers where soon answered, when a group of young Tyrians attacked the slave caravans, freeing a few of the slaves and Kaddaz in the process.
It was them that taught Kaddaz how to fight.
When he arrived in civilized society, he discovered things there weren’t as good as he had dreamed of in the slave pens. Beings with evil aura’s stalked the streets constantly, and a few even tried to kill Kaddaz.
He was still able to find happiness, and even married a young elf maiden. Their happiness was not to last, however. During their wedding night, an assassin had attempted to kill her. That was simply the first of many attempts, and they stress they caused soon pushed her to kill herself.
This had left Kaddaz heartbroken, that even with his powers as a paladin, he couldn’t save someone he cared for, and with that, he renounced his powers.

Medium Humaniod (Human)
Paladin 10 (Fallen)
Special Qualities: Extra Skill Points.
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +6
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16
Skills: Sense Motive +15, Spot +7½, Listen +7½
Feats: Luck of Heroes, Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Improved Critical
Alignment: Lawful Good
Equipment: Will stick to longswords, heavy shields and full plate armour.
Languages: Common

Favourite Colour: Black. Kaddaz prefers to stick to dark colours, this is partly due to a defence mechanism he has. Wearing dark armour usually gives off an evil impression, and he uses that impression to keep others at a distance. It also makes evil characters more likely to trust him, which makes it easier for him to kill them as a result.
Favourite Food: Rothe Sandwich. Being born and raised in the underdark, he is used to eating Rothe meat.
Favourite Sport: “Fruboball”. A game he used to spectator at, in which a friend of his, Frubo, would hurl fireballs at folk immune to its damage, and gain a number of points based on accuracy.
Favourite Music: None. Being born and raised a slave, he had little chance to enjoy music.
Favourite Childhood Toy: The Stick. Mostly because it was something he owned, and no one else.
Best Friend: Hard to say. It’s between his friend Frubbo (mentioned above) and an old cleric of Torm whom had helped him track down assassins sent after him.
Childhood Career Aspiration: To be free. He wasn’t able to dream up much else as a slave.
First Crush: A fellow slave, who was horribly tortured and killed due to their feelings for each other.
First Career: Professional Rock smasher and cart hurler.
Favourite Pre-Adventure Activity: Simply enjoying the company of his friends, or watching a game of Fruboball.
Personality: Varied a bit. To begin with, he was pleasant, charismatic, and friendly. Very slowly over time, however, he became dark and brooding. Deep down, however, he is still a good person, and will cast off his dark shell to aid an innocent in need.

horseboy
2008-02-14, 03:51 PM
There's one problem player though who is having serious difficulty with the idea that his character can be more than just the sum of the stats on its sheet. It's been a very frustrating situation to deal with and if it weren't for the fact that all the other players are enjoying the change in playstyle, I'd go back to the old "now that we've finished adventure three of Age of Worms I think I'll run Eyes of the Lich Queen for a bit" style of play.

So, I think what gaymer_seattle is trying to do is create a discussion about how you get D&D players to think of their characters as more than a pile of stats when they're currently doing this because they've been TRAINED to think that way.Well, given how hard it is to put that level of detail into a D&D character it's not surprising. The only advise I can offer is to try and get the player engaged in something other than killing stuff. Of course if he's the fighter and you try and get him to do something other than fight he'd be royally boned anyway.

Talic
2008-02-14, 04:18 PM
THE USUALS
Name: Torm Lightfoot
Race: Human
Age: 29
Physical Description: Tall, lanky, has casually good looks, though he's physically underdeveloped. His eyes are green, his hair brown. A scar running across his nose speaks of a rough scrape in the past.

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - Perhaps it's because he's colorblind... Perhaps he's spartan. Either way, he thinks the concept of an individual is based on far more important things than color. He scoffs at people who use it to start conversations in taverns.

Favorite Food - He has a firm belief that man does not struggle his way up the food chain to eat carrots. Bacon tops the list, followed by ham, steak, and other forms of beef. If he must have a vegetable, then it must be drowned liberally in cheese.

Favorite Sport - While he believes that with conflict comes development, his favorite sport is war. He spends many hours casually comparing militaries, tactics, and strategies... For all that he's never led an army or fought in a war.

Favorite Sport (played) - He doesn't really play sports, to be honest. Much more comfortable reading a good book over a bottle of wine. Oh sure, he played a couple as a child, but as his age grew, his desire for such things diminished. He was absentminded, at best, as a child, when playing those games.

Favorite Music - He listens to many things, mostly soothing music... His choice of music mostly reflects his mood, and it does vary drastically though. He prefers harsh, grating music when angry, and laid back, light music when calm.

Favorite Childhood Toy - He can't remember a single toy from his childhood that made an impact on him. Oh, sure, he can remember the toys he grew up with... But their importance has faded with time... Much as he views his childhood. To be honest, Torm doesn't really look at the past anymore. Never liked what he saw there to begin with.

Childhood Career Aspiration - For a while, he wanted to be an explorer, someone who visited places never seen before, and charted the unchartable... Then, like many children, he wanted to be a soldier... That passed quickly... He had a brief stint where he wanted to be a leader, a ruler. But quickly found that nobody was willing to follow him. He always seemed to find the wrong thing to say, no matter the situation.

Best Friend - He remembers many people from his past that he called friend. Most, if not all, drifted in, stayed for a while, and drifted away. He never really keeps track of the people from his past, though he always thinks to himself that someday, he'll track such and such down.

First Crush - Oh, when in apprenticeship, he knew someone he was interested in. She returned the favor, though he never really caught on. Eventually, she gave up on dropping casual hints, and went out with another. The last he knew of her was years ago, when he heard she dropped out of her schooling, to raise an unexpected family. Since then, women come, and women go... But none really keep a place for long.

First Career - He's done a lot. Nothing really for long. To get through schooling, he had to bus and wait tables, sell items in the local craft shops, and the like. His most enjoyed career was making things. Specifically, alchemical things. He never went for the dangerous stuff, kept his focus on flashy things, things that got attention.

Parents/Family - His parents are alive, though he'll never mention them. Ever.

Your Personality - As evidenced before, he has a nearly total misunderstanding of his fellow man. He's socially inept, to a crippling degree. His first impressions are great, until he opens his mouth. This has made him unsure of himself socially, though he speaks with authority and even arrogance on almost anything intellectual.

THE BUILD
If you didn't spend at least an hour on the previous sections... blah
This isn't homework.

STATS
Blah. Not important to the exercise. High int, low charisma, moderate con, dex str, above average wis. Feats include Jack of all trades, a couple points into a few knowledge skills, relies on natural intelligence and previous feat mentioned to be a freakin arrogant know it all. Craft alchemy is prob the only craft skill, no profession skills. 10 levels of wizard, no specialty, as he doesn't limit himself. is it really that important to flesh it out?

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-15, 05:53 AM
THE USUALS
Name- Lady Eleanor Brightfire
Race- Human
Age- 27
Physical Description- Tall and slender, with wiry (but not huge) muscles. Strong, quite beautiful facial features, with golden hair (about shoulder length, usually tied back to avoid getting caught while fighting).

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - favours reds and oranges, mainly because of an association with stories of her forebears' battles, which often included fire-breathing dragons.
Favorite Food - Roasted meats and rich gravy are her favourites- especially boar (hunting one down is good, too!)
Favorite Sport - Jousting and hunting, mainly.
Favorite Sport - Jousting and the melee.
Favorite Music - Medieval European styles- it's what she was brought up with.
Favorite Childhood Toy - When she was very young, she had a set of wooden knights and a Dragon, and she enjoyed recreating the stories she was told by her parents.
Childhood Career Aspiration - Knight, as she was inspired by all the stories of heroism she heard from her family and their peers.
Best Friend - Quite an insular child, Eleanor mostly stayed with her family. However, she formed quite a bond with some of the other young Knightly aspirants she trained with and sparred against; most have inherited their family's lands and stayed roughly where they were, but Eleanor's lust for adventure meant they lost touch.
First Crush - Was quite taken with one of the other young squires, named Michael, but etiquette and propriety meant it never went anywhere.
First Career - Knight-errant.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - She always loved to hear stories of the heroic past, so she was an avid reader and would always go to listen to any Bards that visited the area; other than that, she also loved training to do something equally heroic herself one day.
Parents/Family - Her father, Sir Robert, was an archetypal knight. Strong and noble, Eleanor worshipped him and he adored her in return. He would always tell her stories of their ancestors, going right back to Arthur, who forged the family sword, slayer of Dragons and fiends. In turn, when she pleaded with him to train her in the ways of the knight, he was only too happy- not just to instruct her in battle, but also riding, etiquette and chivalry. Her mother, Lady Jane, was glad to see her daughter become a knight- something of a feminist, she would have been horrified had her daughter simply consented to be the wife of another knight or noble and spend the rest of her days sitting round sewing and having children. Her father's health was deteriorting, though, as a result of old wounds, and when the day came, knowing that he was not far from Death's door, he asked Eleanor to bring him the ancestral sword, so he could die as he felt he should- sword in hand. Disastrously, it had been stolen, and with his dying breath, he charged Eleanor to go out and recover it, not resting 'til the family's honour was restored. It was this that sent her to a life of adventure.
Your Personality - Very trusting and honourable, and extremely dedicated to her causes. Makes friends easily and keeps them for a long time- and enemies also. Treats all people with respect unless they are being deliberately obtuse, when she can become very intimidating (politely, of course- "I recommend you rethink your actions. It would be unfortunate if I were forced to fight you, but a true Knight must make sacrifices in the name of honour" sort of thing...). She has a short temper, though, and anyone who belittles her skills is likely to be challenged to a duel. The bruises fade eventually.

THE BUILD
Knight/10
Str17 Dex13 Con14 Int14 Wis8 Cha18
Max ranks in Ride, Intimidate, Handle Animal, Knowledge (History) (cc) and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)
Feats: depends how I'm feeling, but will include Bastard Sword focus, Die Hard, and some riding stuff.

gaymer_seattle
2008-02-15, 09:44 AM
Thing is, he didn't ask for help. He basically implied that the whole board were like your problem player, and said "hey! Learn better! Let me watch how you do it!"

You are right. I didn't ask for help. I was doing as Helium suggested. I was trying to create a discussion, though admittedly I think the psychology of my approach was broken.

I didn't intend to imply that EVERYONE on this board was some how character inept, but I could spend very little time coming up with evidence that many of them are engaged solely in the numbers and equations part of the game.

In the long run, it was a challenge. It was not an exam or a test or a judgment. At least not until some posters decided to see it that way. I wanted to see how people approached character generation when they had to consider "fluff" first. Every single person who read this challenge had the option of saying "I'm not going to do that" and move on to the next "how do I build a 4th level deity" or "What book is the Death Bloom feat in?". While I have appreciated the debate from all sides, and it really has given me much to consider, I'm happiest with the people who simply did the challenge for the sake and fun of doing it.

Rutee
2008-02-15, 11:28 AM
You are right. I didn't ask for help. I was doing as Helium suggested. I was trying to create a discussion, though admittedly I think the psychology of my approach was broken.

I didn't intend to imply that EVERYONE on this board was some how character inept, but I could spend very little time coming up with evidence that many of them are engaged solely in the numbers and equations part of the game.

In the long run, it was a challenge. It was not an exam or a test or a judgment. At least not until some posters decided to see it that way. I wanted to see how people approached character generation when they had to consider "fluff" first. Every single person who read this challenge had the option of saying "I'm not going to do that" and move on to the next "how do I build a 4th level deity" or "What book is the Death Bloom feat in?". While I have appreciated the debate from all sides, and it really has given me much to consider, I'm happiest with the people who simply did the challenge for the sake and fun of doing it.

No, you /couldn't/ come up with that evidence. All you could come up with evidence about is that the player only discussed the number crunch aspects on these boards; That has nothing to do with how they play, because the simple fact is, people don't generally need that much help to represent their characters. I've made 2 new PCs in the last 2 weeks, f'rex, and haven't needed an iota of help in how to represent them as characters. But I did need help figuring out how to mix supernaturals, on a mechanical level, in my nWoD-system game. (Still do, but I'll ask for help again after I understand some mechanical issues better. AKA read the Werewolf, Vampire, Mage, etc. books for oWoD and nWoD) I didn't ask for help on how to mix them from a story perspective because the other players will provide hooks for me, and I know what I'm doing.

Rutee
2008-02-15, 11:29 AM
You are right. I didn't ask for help. I was doing as Helium suggested. I was trying to create a discussion, though admittedly I think the psychology of my approach was broken.

I didn't intend to imply that EVERYONE on this board was some how character inept, but I could spend very little time coming up with evidence that many of them are engaged solely in the numbers and equations part of the game.

In the long run, it was a challenge. It was not an exam or a test or a judgment. At least not until some posters decided to see it that way. I wanted to see how people approached character generation when they had to consider "fluff" first. Every single person who read this challenge had the option of saying "I'm not going to do that" and move on to the next "how do I build a 4th level deity" or "What book is the Death Bloom feat in?". While I have appreciated the debate from all sides, and it really has given me much to consider, I'm happiest with the people who simply did the challenge for the sake and fun of doing it.

No, you /couldn't/ come up with that evidence. All you could come up with evidence about is that the player only discussed the number crunch aspects on these boards; That has nothing to do with how they play, because the simple fact is, people don't generally need that much help to represent their characters. I've made 2 new PCs in the last 2 weeks, f'rex, and haven't needed an iota of help in how to represent them as characters. But I did need help figuring out how to mix supernaturals, on a mechanical level, in my nWoD-system game. (Still do, but I'll ask for help again after I understand some mechanical issues better. AKA read the Werewolf, Vampire, Mage, etc. books for oWoD and nWoD) I didn't ask for help on how to mix them from a story perspective because the other players will provide hooks for me, and I know what I'm doing.

And see, your tone? With comments like "Every single person who read this challenge had the option of saying "I'm not going to do that" and move on to the next "how do I build a 4th level deity" or "What book is the Death Bloom feat in?"" Makes it hard to believe you don't mean some measure of ill-will or disdain.

Rutee
2008-02-15, 11:31 AM
You are right. I didn't ask for help. I was doing as Helium suggested. I was trying to create a discussion, though admittedly I think the psychology of my approach was broken.

I didn't intend to imply that EVERYONE on this board was some how character inept, but I could spend very little time coming up with evidence that many of them are engaged solely in the numbers and equations part of the game.

In the long run, it was a challenge. It was not an exam or a test or a judgment. At least not until some posters decided to see it that way. I wanted to see how people approached character generation when they had to consider "fluff" first. Every single person who read this challenge had the option of saying "I'm not going to do that" and move on to the next "how do I build a 4th level deity" or "What book is the Death Bloom feat in?". While I have appreciated the debate from all sides, and it really has given me much to consider, I'm happiest with the people who simply did the challenge for the sake and fun of doing it.

No, you /couldn't/ come up with that evidence. All you could come up with evidence about is that the player only discussed the number crunch aspects on these boards; That has nothing to do with how they play, because the simple fact is, people don't generally need that much help to represent their characters. I've made 2 new PCs in the last 2 weeks, f'rex, and haven't needed an iota of help in how to represent them as characters. But I did need help figuring out how to mix supernaturals, on a mechanical level, in my nWoD-system game. (Still do, but I'll ask for help again after I understand some mechanical issues better. AKA read the Werewolf, Vampire, Mage, etc. books for oWoD and nWoD) I didn't ask for help on how to mix them from a story perspective because the other players will provide hooks for me, and I know what I'm doing.

And see, your tone? With comments like "Every single person who read this challenge had the option of saying "I'm not going to do that" and move on to the next "how do I build a 4th level deity" or "What book is the Death Bloom feat in?"" Makes it hard to believe you don't mean some measure of ill-will or disdain. Elitism is all well and good, but it needs to be directed to people who you KNOW are actually worse at your elite-maker, not people you dislike.

gaymer_seattle
2008-02-15, 11:54 AM
I may indeed be guilty of elitism. No.. I definitely am guilty of elitism. Most of the time I don't even realize that I am doing it. A lot of it stems from the intention of trying to make something better. I like to raise the bar. This invariably involves pointing out what makes the bar be where it is.

4th level deity and death bloom feat - these are simply me taking what I see to a logical extreme. I don't dislike the people who are going after that sort of thing. I don't even know them. I don't like the behavior. I will be honest about that.

That has not stopped me from getting involved in various discussions and talking about mechanical merit. I have in the past asked for advice on the best class or class combo for creating an Avatar style element bender, because I don't know all the rules of every class and I sometimes like to see how someone would build that type of class. I didn't do it to have the most power combination, but the most accurate representation


That all said, it's not my intention to demean people, but to get them thinking about other ways to approach the Game.

And this of course will always be interpreted in what ever way the reader wants

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-15, 12:35 PM
I may indeed be guilty of elitism. No.. I definitely am guilty of elitism. Most of the time I don't even realize that I am doing it. A lot of it stems from the intention of trying to make something better. I like to raise the bar. This invariably involves pointing out what makes the bar be where it is.

The danger of that, of course, is that you might find that you run up against fellow elitists, who will point out to you that actually the bar is *far* higher than you think it is.

I personally found the idea of presenting "Create your character before you create your stats" as a "challenge" to be rather amusing. The way D&D works, Character and Stats are practically orthogonal concepts. Look at any character on the list, and you'll find precious little in their background that actually implies their stats or vice versa.

Of course a big reason that a lot of people actually do Stats first is that they use random generation, and there's no point saying "Darian is tall, well muscled, and awkward in social situations" if you wind up rolling a 6 for Strength and an 18 for Charisma. Similarly you might not want to describe your character until you've worked out what you can *actually* make them capable of mechanically.

Iudex Fatarum
2008-02-15, 05:13 PM
THE USUALS
Name Tod Smith (As plain as this sounds it comes from tod (alternate spelling of death in german) and the fact he is a smith)
Race Human
Age 19
Physical Description (remember if your character is "hot" you had better be willing to invest points in CHA) He is short, and brooding, he does not reveal his face willingly but if you see it you understand that he is troubled constantly, unless your a lycanthrope then all you see is rage.

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - Silver (used to be white but now silver because of his hatred of lycanthropes)
Favorite Food - Anything that nourishes he hasn't eaten well in the past year. He has even had to eat goblin for food.
Favorite Sport - Fencing, He loves to watch the flicks of the wrist and the beautiful forms.
Favorite Sport - He hasn't had a chance to play in years, nor did he ever like sports
Favorite Music - He never realy listened to music but loved the sound of hammer on anvil.
Favorite Childhood Toy - He played with his younger brother in a poor village so he didn't really play with many toys but probably his wooden sword and shield.
Childhood Career Aspiration - Smith, it was his first apprenticeship and he loves making things with his hands.
Best Friend - He doesn't like to discuss this as all of them have turned him away and hate him now.
First Crush - Didn't have time for one realy.
First Career - Smith apprentice
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - He loved training with weapons, his goal was to master every weapon he could
Parents/Family - Parents are alive and well but they don't like having tod around, while they don't blame him for what happened they just don't want to be forced to remember it, he had a younger brother by 2 years killed by his own hand.
Your Personality - Withdrawn, doesn't want to hurt humans, or other "sentient" races but feels duty stronger than most. he also does not consider lycanthropes to be sentient even in human form.
Other - He worked as a town guard with his younger brother and they loved it and worked there to make extra money while they were apprentices at the local smiths. One day some werewolfs came near their town and started attacking, they figured this out only after a couple of people had died. He and his brother were assigned to go and kill the wolfs, but in the corse of the battle his younger brother was bitten. The town has no Wolfsbane near by and no cleric so to speak of. The result was they tied up his younger brother to see if he was indeed a lycan now. He was. His town commander asked him shortly after the battle what had happened and he told them precisely. He was told he must kill all the werewolfs and so he was forced to kill his brother, with his own brothers permission he cleaved off the head but then the town found out. Now he is exiled, and while his parents don't blame him they prefer he not be around to remind them of their sons death and their other son's murder.

STATS
STR 16
DEX 13
CON 16
INT 15
WIS 11
CHA 11

Class
Fighter 4
Skills

Climb 6
Craft (weapon) 7
Craft (Armour) 7
Craft (Bow) 2
Intimidate 7
Ride 6

Feats
Weapon focus (Scythe/greatsword,) weapon specialization (scythe), combat reflexes, power attack, cleave

Equipment, carries a silvered scythe with Bane Huminoid (Shapechanger)
He also wears his black cloak low over his armour which is full platemail he keeps the armour colored black and also worships death now, trying to ease his pain by killing those responsable for his brothers death, the lycanthropes.

this is a character I am currently playing, while the DM keeps killing me off and has a vendetta against my character it works ok (he keeps sending lycanthropes at us that we must work with, thank goodness for WIS of 11 i don't notice them much)

ChocolateChtulu
2008-02-15, 05:19 PM
Look what you made me do :smallbiggrin:

Name - Boffo Fairwiskers, known by the kobolds as Krak'blbl'paach, that is, "that pink maniac"
Race - Gnome
Age - 60
Physical Description - Of diminutive stature even for a gnome, but sporting a pair of impressive mustaches, Boffo usually wears a simple tunic and a pink, pointed hat.

Favorite Color - pink
Favorite Food - kobold babies
Favorite Sport - hunting and tormenting kobolds
Favorite Music - he loves to play the xylophone - but he likes the screams of kobolds, too :-)
Favorite Childhood Toy - A dress-up doll - don't you dare judge him!
Childhood Career Aspiration - Boffo wished to become a renowned musician, like his grandmother before him.
Best Friend - Boffo's main friends are the bugbear barbarian Aarghnonono the Proactively Aggressive and Aarghnonono's pet badger, who tends to be the strategic mind of the group - good thing Boffo can speak with animals, although only once per day!
First Crush - Just like many young boys of his tribe, Boffo's first crush was for Edda Trumpetquack, three times Most Attractive Gnome and two times Most Evil Practical Joker.
Nowadays, however, Boffo is happily married with the head of the Monastery of Manyhurts, the elven princess Laulelalalai.
First Career - Street musician, but it did not work out. Boffo then joined a fighting ring, and shortly thereafter he was accepted as a trainee at Manyhurts. Boffo still lives at the monastery, leaving it only for fighting kobolds together with his companion Aarghnonono and, sometimes, Laulelalalai herself.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Boffo was - and, actually, still is - a xylophone junkie: his knowledge about his instruments is unparalleled, and he personally built his own.
However, his actual playing skill is not that great: he was always disappointed by this, and even now he spends most of his free time practicing his music.
Parents/Family - Boffo's tribe, a tiny settlement encroached among kobold clans, is pretty much a big extended family - after all, it counts only fifty-something members.
Boffo's mother died in battle when Boffo was young, and his father is the Chief Kobold Torturer of the tribe.
Boffo's main parent figure is actually his grandma, who is an extremely skilled bard and likes to tell stories about the old times, "when the damned scaly rats knew their place".
Personality - Very reserved and disciplined: Boffo won't open up easily to anyone, and mostly keeps to himself and his xylophone. He just does not care about people, except for his tribe and a handful of friends. He wears his hat as a sign of gnomish pride, but won't be angered if someone makes fun of it - who gives a damn about the opinion of bloody not-gnomes, anyway?
Just like everyone in his family, Boffo hates kobolds with all his heart: everyone arguing that kobolds are not all bad would be considered a misguided fool at best, and a personal enemy at worst.

Class: Monk 10

Stats:
Str - 14 (base 16 - 2 racial) = 10
Dex - 16 = 10
Con - 16 (base 14 + 2 racial) = 6
Int - 12 = 4
Wis - 14 = 6
Cha - 12 = 4

Skill ranks in Knowledge(xylophone), Craft(xylophone), Perform(xylophone), Listen, Move silently, Tumble

Feats: I won't bother writing them, the usual ones for your average monk

Oh, I forgot: Boffo's alignment is obviously LE