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View Full Version : "Locate city bomb" I'm a noob, what is it



Kazuel
2008-02-11, 09:27 PM
pretty much what the title says. I've heard it thrown around, but I must have missed it being explained. What is it? Thank in advance.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-11, 09:30 PM
A series of feats that makes any spell do sonic and electric damage, followed by a feat that pushes anyone hit by a spell that does sonic damage to the edge of the spell's radius, then does damage based on the distance they were pushed.

And then Locate City, a spell with a radius measured in miles.

PirateMonk
2008-02-11, 09:34 PM
1: Take Locate City, a spell with a range of ten miles per level
2: Apply Snowcasting (Frostburn) to it, making it a [Cold] spell
3: Apply Flash Frost (PHBII) to it, making it deal 2 cold damage to everything in the area
4:Apply Energy Substitution (CArc) to it, making it an electric spell
5: Apply Born of the Three Thunders to it, allowing a reflex save to avoid the damage and changing the damage type
6: Apply Explosive Spell to it, forcing a second Reflex save to avoid being blasted to the edge of the area and 1d6(?) per ten feet traveled

I probably got something there wrong, though.

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-11, 09:36 PM
locate city (RoD) - 10 mile/level radius, finds a city

1. apply snowcasting (FB) - spell now has the cold descriptor
2. apply flash frost feat (PHB2) - spell now deals 2 points of cold damage to all in area (and makes area slippery but we don't care about that)
3. apply energy substitution (electricity) (CArc) - spell now deals electricity damge
4. apply born of three thunders (CArc) - spell deals half electric, half sonic, but what is important is that it now requires a reflex save, allowing us to...
5. apply explosive spell (CArc) - all creatures/things in area that fail their reflex saves are shunted to the outside of the area of effect (10 miles/level) and take 1d6 damage per 10' moved!

voila, you have just nuked an entire kingdom with a 4th level spell slot, a handful of snow and a silly combination of feats. Of course you have to be creative as well to not get shunted 200 miles yourself, or end up with a thousand tons of debris and bodies on top of you.

A BUNCH OF STUFF

expirement10K14
2008-02-11, 09:38 PM
All I say is, wow. Level 20, so it has a 20 mile radius.

20*5280=105600

Divided by ten means, 10560d6. No one lives, even if it offers a save.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-11, 09:38 PM
I think Explosive Spell is reflex for half, otherwise that's basically right from what I remember of the pertinent feats.

For those following along, at level 20 thats reflex for half of 100,560d6. Monks and Rogues are the only ones that can survive that, and I think it ends up being a 4th level spell.

BRC
2008-02-11, 09:39 PM
All I say is, wow. Level 20, so it has a 20 mile radius.

20*5280=105600

Divided by ten means, 10560d6. No one lives, even if it offers a save.

look again, it's a 10 miles/level radius
200 mile radius.

expirement10K14
2008-02-11, 09:40 PM
look again, it's a 10 miles/level radius
200 mile radius.

Okay so 105600d6, still, no one lives.

BRC
2008-02-11, 09:41 PM
Okay so 105600d6, still, no one lives.
except rouges and monks who have evasion and do really well on their reflex saves!

tyckspoon
2008-02-11, 09:41 PM
For those following along, at level 20 thats reflex for half of 10,560d6. Monks and Rogues are the only ones that can survive that, and I think it ends up being a 4th level spell.

And Rangers. Everybody always forgets they get Evasion, probably because you can't dip for it.

Shraik
2008-02-11, 09:46 PM
If thats a ten mile radius spell, that 5280d6 damage... That could epic creatures even

Shades of Gray
2008-02-11, 09:49 PM
Couldn't you add nonlethal substitution to kill the tarrasque? The tarrasque can only be killed if it's nonlethal damage exceeds his max hp.

tyckspoon
2008-02-11, 09:53 PM
Couldn't you add nonlethal substitution to kill the tarrasque? The tarrasque can only be killed if it's nonlethal damage exceeds his max hp.

Not necessary; the tarrasque's regeneration means *everything* is nonlethal damage to it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-11, 09:55 PM
You still need a Wish, though.

Ganurath
2008-02-11, 09:56 PM
I still prefer flying over the target, pulling a sheet of rock out of a portable hole, and using it as the foundation for a Sculpted Wall of Stone. About the same damage, and a lot more precise.

Reinboom
2008-02-11, 09:57 PM
Arcane Thesis makes the spell an even lower slot, increases caster level by 2, and lets you put up a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability.

Also, note this trick can't be accomplished with a Wizard easily (/easier accomplished with a Sorcerer), since, snowcasting is applied at the time the spell is cast, and thus, you can't apply Flash Frost until that time.

FlyMolo
2008-02-11, 10:04 PM
If thats a ten mile radius spell, that 5280d6 damage... That could epic creatures even

5280 d6 PER LEVEL. At least 8 or so, cuz it's a 4th level spell.

The only thing I've seen that's more powerful than this is the Anti-Osmium bomb.

And what do you mean, "Could"? Epic critters are tough, but that's an average of 15 thousand damage. lots have evasion, and good saves, though.

On the other hand, this is one of the more interesting bombs I've ever seen. Leaves a bunch of rogues in the positions they were in before the bomb went off, minus the table they were sitting at, the toothbrush they were using, etc etc. Which is now 200 miles away and smashed into powder. The ranger is suddenly confused as to where the woods went.

I would rule that this scours the land of the topsoil too, leaving a smooth granite surface, surrounded by a huge pile of debris and dirt. The inside would be glassed by the electric damage, and held together with ice. It would be a giant gray-black, perfectly smooth, sphere, which would, admittedly, stop a few hundred feet up. Those rogues would probably still kick the bucket in the end, however. Fall 5-50 feet depending on depth of soil, then stuck in a 200 mile wide blot on the landscape. Nothing to eat.

KoDT69
2008-02-11, 10:13 PM
One thing to consider is that the Explosive Spell only ejects the poor souls that fail the Reflex Save vs the electric/sonic damage from the spell. The other thing is that if any creature being ejected hits any kind of barrier they only take 1d6 per 10 feet to that barrier +1d6 more for hitting it. All of those commoners in their small homes will luck out and take 2 from the spell and 1d6 for the wall impact (most likely the rooms are small enough that there isn't 10 whole feet to travel). Other than that it's all good :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-11, 10:15 PM
Then quick question, could it work on buildings? I mean, it would have to overcome DR/hardness fairly easily.

tyckspoon
2008-02-11, 10:22 PM
On the other hand, this is one of the more interesting bombs I've ever seen. Leaves a bunch of rogues in the positions they were in before the bomb went off, minus the table they were sitting at, the toothbrush they were using, etc etc. Which is now 200 miles away and smashed into powder. The ranger is suddenly confused as to where the woods went.


Explosive Spell only specifies creatures as affected. Objects would only take the 2 points from the Electric Flash Frost(affects 'all targets'), which is going to be 0 damage for most things after halving and then applying hardness.

Edit :

Then quick question, could it work on buildings? I mean, it would have to overcome DR/hardness fairly easily.

See above. Explosive spell doesn't do anything to objects.

Kazuel
2008-02-11, 10:33 PM
what book is "locate city" found in. It's not on the list here

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells

Ganurath
2008-02-11, 10:35 PM
what book is "locate city" found in. It's not on the list here

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spellsRaces of Destiny, home of the Illumians, the Scars, and Half-Orc Culture.

FlyMolo
2008-02-11, 10:38 PM
Explosive Spell only specifies creatures as affected. Objects would only take the 2 points from the Electric Flash Frost(affects 'all targets'), which is going to be 0 damage for most things after halving and then applying hardness.

Edit :


See above. Explosive spell doesn't do anything to objects.
Pity. I like my way better. :smallbiggrin:

Mark Hall
2008-02-11, 10:38 PM
And, as I've seen it explained, you actually can't do it with energy substitution, because that stops making it a Cold Spell, and thus ineligible for Flash Frost. You instead need Energy Admixture, which drives the cost of the spell up.

Icewalker
2008-02-11, 10:42 PM
One thing to consider is that the Explosive Spell only ejects the poor souls that fail the Reflex Save vs the electric/sonic damage from the spell. The other thing is that if any creature being ejected hits any kind of barrier they only take 1d6 per 10 feet to that barrier +1d6 more for hitting it. All of those commoners in their small homes will luck out and take 2 from the spell and 1d6 for the wall impact (most likely the rooms are small enough that there isn't 10 whole feet to travel). Other than that it's all good :smallbiggrin:

1. I thought it was 1d6 per 10' you would have traveled, leaving it the same? Also, reflex save or no, the entire building they are in would be shunted to the edge of the radius, so that'd hit them pretty hard.

2. Oh, only 2 damage +1d6 from hitting a wall...which is enough to knock out a commoner. :smalltongue:

Ganurath
2008-02-11, 10:45 PM
Pity. I like my way better. :smallbiggrin:...Why? If objects are undamaged, the LCB essentially lets you take over fortresses without damaging the fortress itself.

FlyMolo
2008-02-11, 10:49 PM
...Why? If objects are undamaged, the LCB essentially lets you take over fortresses without damaging the fortress itself.
Not really. I'm not sure whether the building code for fortresses covers having commoners and the inhabitants thrown extremely violently against the interior walls. I'm pretty sure it's 1d6 per 10ft you would have traveled.

And who doesn't want a spell that scours an area the size of Ohio to the bedrock? and piles all that up in a giant glassed mound on the edges?

Okay plot hook, I guess. "A giant roar was heard, and rocks fell upon the land. Go find out what happened."

And if you skip the energy admixture steps, you can just coat all of Ohio in ice. And how cool is that, really?

Miles Invictus
2008-02-11, 10:52 PM
...wouldn't you need line-of-effect to the targets affected by the blast?

Ganurath
2008-02-11, 10:52 PM
Okay plot hook, I guess. "A giant roar was heard, and rocks fell upon the land. Go find out what happened."Player1: ...How much land?
DM: How big is Ohio?
Player2: THAT much land?
DM: As the rumors tell it.
Player3: You want us to go toward it?
DM: Er...
Player4: All in favor of going the other way?
Player1: Aye!
Player2: Aye!
Player3: Aye!

shaddy_24
2008-02-11, 11:16 PM
I've seen this done with appocalypse from the sky, which has the same radius, but does 10d6 damage to everyone. So it does damage base, which means that it can wipe out buildings on top of everything else. There was also a way to prevent the square the caster was in from being hit, so everything in a 200 mile radius around you is toast, but you're fine. Of course, people looked at it and realized it could also dig a crater about 3 miles deep, so that little piller you're standing on won't be standing for long...

KoDT69
2008-02-11, 11:19 PM
@FlyMolo - Dude, no. It specifically states in the Complete Arcane that they take only 1d6 per 10 feet travelled plus 1d6 when they hit something if not going the whole distance. It doesn't work that way. In fact, since using multiple metamagic feats on the same spell must meet all prerequisite conditions, this combo probably works this way. Let's look.

SNOWCASTING - Changes descriptor to [cold]

FLASH FROST - May only be applied to a [cold] spell.
1. +2 hp Cold damage per Spell level.
2. The area-of-effect is coated with frost for 1 round. Any creature moving through the area must make a Balance check or fall Prone (DC 20 if Running or Charging, otherwise DC 10).

ENERGY ADMIXTURE - changes spell to be 2 energy types [cold][sonic]
or
ENERGY SUBSTITUTION - changes the descriptor to the new energy type - which overrides the requisite [cold] so it doesn't work with this

BORN OF THREE THUNDERS
At cast time, you may declare a spell whose type is [electricity] or [sonic] to be a spell of ‘three thunders’, which does the following:
1. The spell’s type changes to [electricity][sonic].
2. Damage done by the spell is ˝ Electricity and ˝ Sonic;
3. Any creature damaged by the spell is Stunned for 1 round (FortNeg);
4. Any creature Stunned by the spell is knocked Prone (RefNeg);
5. The caster of the spell is Dazed for 1 round (no save).

EXPLOSIVE SPELL - A spell that has a Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Burst that allows a Reflex save will now push any creature that fails its Reflex save out of the area of effect. For every full 10’ a target is moved, he/she takes an additional 1d6 damage, plus an extra 1d6 if he/she strikes a barrier. In addition, the target is knocked Prone. If some obstacle prevents a blasted creature from being moved to the edge of the effect, the creature is stopped and takes 1d6 points of damage from striking the barrier (in addition to any damage taken from the distance moved before then).

So it does not make them take the damage from the entire area of effect once they hit something. It's not even clear as to how sturdy the barrier has to be, just that you hit it. :smallsigh:

Talya
2008-02-11, 11:21 PM
Neat idea in theory. It takes something for granted though... that either you don't have a DM or he's not inclined to stop people from abusively breaking the game by use of a clue-by-four.

Corolinth
2008-02-11, 11:24 PM
Lawrence, where you work, does anybody ever say, "Looks like somebody's got a case of the Mondays?"

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-12, 06:27 AM
This is such a neat bending of the rules and I would absolutely love to use it in a game at some point...just for kicks...but I don't think it actually works logically.

For starters, I don't think that the spell qualifies as a 'burst' radius spell...just that it covers the area...niether is it a line, cone, or cylinder. Therefore, it fails to qualify for the explosive spell.

Also, energy substitution will change the spell from 'cold' to whatever...if it isn't a cold spell, there will be no additional cold damage...which is no fun...without that base damage, there will be no use of three thunders since there is no damage to be delt.

Similarly, if the spell is used with energy admixture then the 'cold' part of the spell is cloned as 'sonic/elec', but the cloned part of the spell does not have any base damage...so three thunders doesn't effect it either.

What does work though, is to highten the spell and then add flashfrost. at 2 hp per spell level, it can be hightened and then wreak havoc. then you can twin spell, or some other funny stuff with it...hightened to 5th level it would deal 10 damage to everything in the range...cast once would pretty much killl any 1 hd creature...cast twice would make that a certianty and eliminate many 2 and a few 3 hd creatures as well.

Wanna take out an army of 'normal' troops...there ya go. No rule bending, just a very bad bad use of the 'normal' stuff. Hmmm...next time I play an evil mage I will remmeber this combo and use it to lay waste to a kingdom or two

KoDT69
2008-02-12, 08:06 AM
Technically Energy Admixture changes it from just [cold] to [cold][sonic] the Born of Three Thunders only changes the [sonic] descriptor to [sonic][electricity] and leaves the [cold] as is, making it a [cold][sonic][electricity] spell in the end.

But that is a valid point on the Explosive Spell. Flash Frost adds damage to the area of effect, but does not grant a spell shape (cone, line, burst, column) so it probably does not work. Can anybody validate this combo? I must have overlooked that, since I was focussed on making sure the descriptors were keeping it qualified through the process.

Doomsy
2008-02-12, 04:10 PM
I really don't think evasion or reflex should save you from what amounts to a hydrogen fusion bomb.

There is no place to dodge *to*. It's all terrible magicky death for miles around! Then again, those feats were not designed with MWMDs in mind.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-12, 05:04 PM
1: Take Locate City, a spell with a range of ten miles per level
2: Apply Snowcasting (Frostburn) to it, making it a [Cold] spell
3: Apply Flash Frost (PHBII) to it, making it deal 2 cold damage to everything in the area
4:Apply Energy Substitution (CArc) to it, making it an electric spell
5: Apply Born of the Three Thunders to it, allowing a reflex save to avoid the damage and changing the damage type
6: Apply Explosive Spell to it, forcing a second Reflex save to avoid being blasted to the edge of the area and 1d6(?) per ten feet traveled

I probably got something there wrong, though.

Don't forget to add Enlarge to double the radius.


Technically Energy Admixture changes it from just [cold] to [cold][sonic] the Born of Three Thunders only changes the [sonic] descriptor to [sonic][electricity] and leaves the [cold] as is, making it a [cold][sonic][electricity] spell in the end.

But that is a valid point on the Explosive Spell. Flash Frost adds damage to the area of effect, but does not grant a spell shape (cone, line, burst, column) so it probably does not work. Can anybody validate this combo? I must have overlooked that, since I was focussed on making sure the descriptors were keeping it qualified through the process.

A radius of effect counts as a spell shape.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-12, 06:25 PM
What he means is, that the 'shape' the spell does posess...'radius' does not qualify for explosive spell as it is not a burst,line,cone, or cylinder.

good calll on the enlarge spell...hmmm...if you can tack on an empowered spell too that would be something 1.5x damage would be nice...probably not worth the effort though.

I need to check out the eldritch theurge and see if they can include an eldritch essence into the spell as well...now that would be overkill *lol*

Lupy
2008-02-12, 07:16 PM
I've seen this done with appocalypse from the sky, which has the same radius, but does 10d6 damage to everyone. So it does damage base, which means that it can wipe out buildings on top of everything else. There was also a way to prevent the square the caster was in from being hit, so everything in a 200 mile radius around you is toast, but you're fine. Of course, people looked at it and realized it could also dig a crater about 3 miles deep, so that little piller you're standing on won't be standing for long...

Teleport maybe?

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-12, 09:04 PM
I really don't think evasion or reflex should save you from what amounts to a hydrogen fusion bomb.

There is no place to dodge *to*. It's all terrible magicky death for miles around! Then again, those feats were not designed with MWMDs in mind.

Pretty much. If you were to rule you can't dodge an atom bomb based n reason, you also likely wouldn't have allowed this chain to work in the first place.


But it's still hilarious.

KoDT69
2008-02-12, 11:00 PM
I really don't think evasion or reflex should save you from what amounts to a hydrogen fusion bomb.

There is no place to dodge *to*. It's all terrible magicky death for miles around! Then again, those feats were not designed with MWMDs in mind.

Umm, yes you should be able to make a save against it. Explosive Spell specifically states that they are not blasted away unless they fail a Reflex Save. On top of that, Evasion has "Roguespace" to hide in for that moment of time. It doesn't have to be logical when magic is included.

And no, Locate City's radius is not one of the acceptable spell shapes as described in the text of Explosive Spell. It does not work per RAW unless there is a way to give that radius a "blast shape". Regardless that you envision this as a blasting bomb, the spell lacks the standard spell shape by game definition, therefore is an illegal target by RAW. Perhaps we have a resident Arcane Master that can make it happen? Emperor Tippy? Fax? My mom? Oh definitely not her, she still thinks that D&D is evil :smalleek:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-12, 11:35 PM
Technically Energy Admixture changes it from just [cold] to [cold][sonic] the Born of Three Thunders only changes the [sonic] descriptor to [sonic][electricity] and leaves the [cold] as is, making it a [cold][sonic][electricity] spell in the end.

But that is a valid point on the Explosive Spell. Flash Frost adds damage to the area of effect, but does not grant a spell shape (cone, line, burst, column) so it probably does not work. Can anybody validate this combo? I must have overlooked that, since I was focussed on making sure the descriptors were keeping it qualified through the process.

I just did a quick perusal which spell or meta effect is applying the Reflex save mechanic needed for the Explosive Spell feat? Certainly not the Locate City spell (Area 10 miles a level radius circle centered on you the caster (Probably good for killing familiars) with a range of 10 miles a level)

Explosive Spell +2 Metamagic: You can cast spells that blast creatures off their feet. Benefit: On a failed Reflex save, an explosive spell ejects any creature caught its area, sending it to a location outside the nearest edge of that area, dealing additional damage and further knocking creatures prone.


Explosive Spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area (a cone, cylinder, line, or burst). An explosive spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.


Flash Frost Spell your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost. Benefit: This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area.

A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area. When you cast such a spell, the area of the spell is covered with a slippery layer of ice for 1 round. Anyone attempting to move through this icy area must make a DC 10 Balance check or fall prone. A creature that runs or charges through the area must make a DC 20 Balance check to avoid falling. A flash frost spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

I don't believe this qualifies for the failed Reflex save requirement for the Explosive Spell meta.

Beren One-Hand
2008-02-13, 12:52 AM
Neat idea, but there seems to be a few problems with it woking RAW.

Flash Frost states that it deals an extra 2 cold damage per spell level to all targets in the area.
Quite appart from the fact that Flash Frost is poorly worded...

I mean it could be read that it doesn't do anything if the spell doesn't deal cold damage already or that the cold damage is added no matter what. Also there is the issue of what happens if its applied to a non-instaneous spell. Does it deal the damage and freeze the ground each round, or just the first round cast. It says the the targets of the spell take this damage, but area spells do not have targets, you target the area itself.

... it looks to me like the Explosive feature couldn't be applied to the spell. While I don't have the spell text (or the snowcasting text) available, from looking at the other "locate" spells, the area is defined as an X-distance-radius circle. If it was a blast, spread, or emanation it would say so.
If you decide that it is a blast

Other equally questionable uses would be...
Use this with the Diminish Plants spell. Use it to strip the half mile radius around you of all plant-life. You don't even have to be concerned that you're in the area of effect for that one.

Use this with a permancied Symbol spell. It generates a 60 foot blast radius, so that it is definately legal to use this combo, the questionable part is pulling Xykon's trick. Not only is everybody going crazy, but their being flung 60 feet from the bal, dealing them the 6d6 damage each time it passes them.

At ^, the Reflex save comes from the Born of Three Thunder's feat.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-13, 01:50 AM
does it say an extra 2 damage per level of spell, or 2 damage per level of spell...if it says extra, then typically those effects do not function if the spell does no base damage...if that is the case...no amount of feats will work on it.

Apocalypse from the sky though....hmmm....well...as long as you are being evil...why not? wipe out people the legitamite way...:smallbiggrin:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 01:52 AM
Neat idea, but there seems to be a few problems with it woking RAW.


At ^, the Reflex save comes from the Born of Three Thunder's feat.

Thanks for pointing that out.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 01:57 AM
does it say an extra 2 damage per level of spell, or 2 damage per level of spell...if it says extra, then typically those effects do not function if the spell does no base damage...if that is the case...no amount of feats will work on it.


It says extra:

Flash Frost Spell, your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.

Benefit: This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area. A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area.......

Starbuck_II
2008-02-13, 07:27 AM
does it say an extra 2 damage per level of spell, or 2 damage per level of spell...if it says extra, then typically those effects do not function if the spell does no base damage...if that is the case...no amount of feats will work on it.


But, basic math says 0 +2 is greater than 1. Extra doesn't have restriction written anywhere that clarifies must deal damage first.

Heck, you could bless with Freeze on it. Just need to add Cold discriptor.

KoDT69
2008-02-13, 08:45 AM
Flash Frost does work because adding extra damage is just a wording. It could also just as easily say +2 damage per spell level since in D&D all terms are either defined by the game engine, or not really relevant to the real world. 0 + 2 is still 2 no matter how you say it. It does not specifically state that the base spell must be damaging, just that it requires the [cold] descriptor, which Flash Frost grants.

The Reflex Save is being imposed from the Born of Three Thunders feat I pointed out earlier. It makes them save or be prone, which then qualified Explosive Spell on that count. The problem is still that a basic "radius" area of effect is not covered by Explosive Spell's cone, line, or blast area of effect spell shape requirement. That is the only broken link here. I'm suprised so many of you missed my last post where I outlined the process to get to this broken link...

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-13, 09:14 AM
Well, you could look at it as Explosive Spell merely giving examples of what an Area spell should be.:smalltongue:

Anyways, AFtS with this trick and giving yourself a space to stand in doesn't work, because as the CO boards point out, you are likely to be the "nearest available space" and thus get pi*400*400 square miles(502654 sq. miles) of bodies flying towards you at 33 miles a second(120000 mph!).:smalleek:

Hmm, Colour Spray or Burning Hands for low level "Begone!" effect?

Funkyodor
2008-02-13, 09:38 AM
The other broken part of this combo is that if someone makes their fortitude save they are not stunned and don't make a reflex save for prone, if they don't fail a reflex save they are not ejected from the spells radius. So if you gloss over the "not a burst, line, cone, cyllander" thing... More people will be left standing than previously indicated, some will take 1 or 2 Sonic/Electricity damage, some will be stunned, some will be knocked down and smacked into objects (possibly killed), and the caster (if he forgets to protect himself via various means) could be knocked down and around too.

Voyager_I
2008-02-13, 09:54 AM
To be fair, given a radius that large, there will be a whole lot of ordinary commoners rolling twenties and wondering where their families went and why it was suddenly very cold.

Heck, one out of every 400 couples will even survive the catastrophe intact. What joy! After all, it's not like they can't have more kids or something.

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-13, 10:10 AM
Forgot to add. Do bodies flying against objects do damage to said objects?

Rigon
2008-02-13, 10:14 AM
an idea popped to my head.
"In the name of the Goddess of Drops I hereby limit the maximum ammount of metamagic feats applied per spell to be 2."

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 10:16 AM
except rouges and monks who have evasion and do really well on their reflex saves!They don't need to do really well; Locate City is a first-level spell, and none of the metamagic changes that for the purpose of saves. So it's an easy save to make, given the insane damage you take if you fail.

Also note that since damage is based on how far you're thrown, and explosive spell throws you towards the nearest edge, only things at ground zero take full damage. People near the edges take much, much less. (Which is, bizarrely, actually the way you would expect a massive explosion to work... unlike most D&D spells.)

Oh. And locate city is centered on you. You might want to protect yourself, somehow.

Hey, wait a moment. If someone is immune to a spell's damage, do they still have to roll saves against it? That could be problematic, since it would mean nothing immune to cold, sonic, or electricity is affected.

Worira
2008-02-13, 10:38 AM
You don't need Evasion, it's not save for half. It's two saves for all, and you only need to make one.

Jayabalard
2008-02-13, 10:54 AM
But, basic math says 0 +2 is greater than 1. Extra doesn't have restriction written anywhere that clarifies must deal damage first.

Heck, you could bless with Freeze on it. Just need to add Cold discriptor.yes, but that spell doesn't do 0 damage... it deals null damage.

and null + 2 = NullPointerException

ColdBrew
2008-02-13, 11:05 AM
yes, but that spell doesn't do 0 damage... it deals null damage.

and null + 2 = NullPointerException

You could make a comparison to casting Bear's Endurance on a creature with no Con score. You can't increase what it doesn't have. However, I believe Flash Frost works regardless. It's certainly thematically acceptable. For instance, there's a druid spell that makes it snow in a wide area. How much cooler would it be if the unnatural snowfall was heralded by a sudden crash in temperature, coating everything in frost and freezing people's extremities?

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-13, 11:24 AM
I've seen this done with appocalypse from the sky, which has the same radius, but does 10d6 damage to everyone. So it does damage base, which means that it can wipe out buildings on top of everything else. There was also a way to prevent the square the caster was in from being hit, so everything in a 200 mile radius around you is toast, but you're fine. Of course, people looked at it and realized it could also dig a crater about 3 miles deep, so that little piller you're standing on won't be standing for long...

Hole in the Middle

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-13, 11:59 AM
Flash Frost does work because adding extra damage is just a wording. It could also just as easily say +2 damage per spell level since in D&D all terms are either defined by the game engine, or not really relevant to the real world. 0 + 2 is still 2 no matter how you say it. It does not specifically state that the base spell must be damaging, just that it requires the [cold] descriptor, which Flash Frost grants.

The Reflex Save is being imposed from the Born of Three Thunders feat I pointed out earlier. It makes them save or be prone, which then qualified Explosive Spell on that count. The problem is still that a basic "radius" area of effect is not covered by Explosive Spell's cone, line, or blast area of effect spell shape requirement. That is the only broken link here. I'm suprised so many of you missed my last post where I outlined the process to get to this broken link...

So you're saying explosive spell shouldn't work on a fireball?

ColdBrew
2008-02-13, 12:05 PM
So you're saying explosive spell shouldn't work on a fireball?

Pear: I am laughing out loud and saying, "Wut?"

Fireball has a Burst shape. It thus qualifies for Explosive Spell.

Signmaker
2008-02-13, 12:20 PM
What is the purpose of Flash Frost?

I'm not quite sure how that fits in to the abuse.

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 12:29 PM
What is the purpose of Flash Frost?

I'm not quite sure how that fits in to the abuse.You need to use Frost Flash so you can use Born of Three Thunders (after fiddling with the types) to give the spell a save so you can use Explosive Spell.

Born of Three Thunders requires that the spell do damage. If you could figure out another way to give Locate City a save, then the combo would be a lot shorter.

ColdBrew
2008-02-13, 12:38 PM
What is the purpose of Flash Frost?

I'm not quite sure how that fits in to the abuse.
Flash Frost makes it a damaging spell.

Signmaker
2008-02-13, 12:43 PM
You need to use Frost Flash so you can use Born of Three Thunders (after fiddling with the types) to give the spell a save so you can use Explosive Spell.

Born of Three Thunders requires that the spell do damage. If you could figure out another way to give Locate City a save, then the combo would be a lot shorter.

Well, now the issue is either:

A. Give Locate City a 'shape' to qualify for Explosive Spell.

or

B. Find a similarly large Burst Spell that won't also blow up the caster. (No Bless)

KoDT69
2008-02-13, 12:52 PM
Well, now the issue is either:

A. Give Locate City a 'shape' to qualify for Explosive Spell.

or

B. Find a similarly large Burst Spell that won't also blow up the caster. (No Bless)

Point A is the thing I've been posting about. A radius is not a spell shape by definition. in D&D, each term needs a game definition because Webster's Dictionary wasn't good enough for WotC :smalleek:

You could probably cast Forcecage on yourself (windowless cell) which keeps everything else out. It also keeps you from going more than 10 feet so you take 2 damage from your own cell and smack the wall for 1d6 more. Locate City does not require line of sight so it should work fine. Teleport out after the dust settles :smallcool:

kentma57
2008-02-13, 01:05 PM
I was talking to my DM and he feels this should not work, his complaint was that "Locate city" was divination and divination targets you only....

Though after reading through the "Locate city" spell it just seems badly designed; giving it an area of effect and a range...

ps: "Locate city" is divination right...

Signmaker
2008-02-13, 01:10 PM
Point A is the thing I've been posting about. A radius is not a spell shape by definition. in D&D, each term needs a game definition because Webster's Dictionary wasn't good enough for WotC :smalleek:

You could probably cast Forcecage on yourself (windowless cell) which keeps everything else out. It also keeps you from going more than 10 feet so you take 2 damage from your own cell and smack the wall for 1d6 more. Locate City does not require line of sight so it should work fine. Teleport out after the dust settles :smallcool:

Forcecage costs quite the bit of money.

Preferably, the burst spell should be castable away from the caster. That, or design a way to render the caster immobile during the spell's duration.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-13, 01:37 PM
Pear: I am laughing out loud and saying, "Wut?"

Fireball has a Burst shape. It thus qualifies for Explosive Spell.

Actually, it has a 20-ft.-radius spread. But it still qualifies.

Signmaker
2008-02-13, 01:40 PM
Actually, it has a 20-ft.-radius spread. But it still qualifies.

Does it?

I thought ES required Line, Cone, Burst, or Cylinder.

Edit: Never mind, fireball's a specific example. >>

That being said, would Explosive spells then include three-dimensional spreads?

Obscuring Mist, perhaps?

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-13, 02:02 PM
Does it?

I thought ES required Line, Cone, Burst, or Cylinder.

Edit: Never mind, fireball's a specific example. >>

That being said, would Explosive spells then include three-dimensional spreads?

Obscuring Mist, perhaps?

I think so! This was my point. Fireball has a spread and does not have the specific wording that the feat requires. Yet it is used in the feat description as an example.

The wording says that it
...can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area (a cone, cylinder, line, or burst)'

It doesn't actually say 'a spell with an area of...', but says a spell with an area may be affected and has parenthetical examples. Because of this and the fact that it uses an example that does not fall into the parenthetical examples, I really can't find any reason why the locate city bomb won't work by the RAW. Unless you accept the examples as a restrictive set, in which case the example listed in the feat is actually impossible, which is equally silly as allowing it to work on locate city, but less game-breaking.


Edit: I like how the 'locate city bomb' once again shows that divination is the only school to specialize in :smallbiggrin:

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-13, 02:47 PM
The tragic thing about this is that many of its elements are actually kind of cool - as in flavourful rather than killy.

I kinda like the idea of a scrying spell that causes a deathly chill over the area scryed upon.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-13, 02:48 PM
It occurs to me that the damage gets incrementally smaller the further away from the caster you are. Huh.

Lapak
2008-02-13, 03:09 PM
The tragic thing about this is that many of its elements are actually kind of cool - as in flavourful rather than killy.

I kinda like the idea of a scrying spell that causes a deathly chill over the area scryed upon.True. Minus the explosive spell bit, I actually like it when you look at it that way.

'The Dread Lord is in the area! I feel his deadly touch in the air!' as the old and infirm die for miles around and the young and hale stagger in their tracks, weakened for a day or two by the passage of an awful power.

Signmaker
2008-02-13, 03:47 PM
It occurs to me that the damage gets incrementally smaller the further away from the caster you are. Huh.


Yeah, it does. Don't forget obstacles. If you're in a forest, you're going to hit a tree before you reach the edge of the effect.

I personally like Diminish Plants + Flash Frost. Good way to get your fellow druid pissed.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 04:00 PM
Energy Substitution doesn't seem to work:

Energy Substitution, You can modify an energy-based spell to use another type of energy instead. Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. The spell's descriptor changes to the new energy type - for example, a fireball composed of cold energy is an evocation [cold] spell.

Since the PC needs Energy Admixture with the Locate City Level 1 spell +1 (for Snowcasting), +1 (for Flash Frost), +4 (for Energy Admixture), +2 (for Explosive Blast), +0 (Born of the Three Thunders) equals a base level 9 spell before any other feats or class specials are used to lower the meta. What percentage of DMs will have NPC wizards with just the right feats so the PC can purchase the spell as a level 9 spell or lower without needing to take the feats?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-13, 04:02 PM
Energy Substitution doesn't seem to work:

Energy Substitution, You can modify an energy-based spell to use another type of energy instead. Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. The spell's descriptor changes to the new energy type - for example, a fireball composed of cold energy is an evocation [cold] spell.

Since the PC needs Energy Admixture with the Locate City Level 1 spell +1 (for Snowcasting), +1 (for Flash Frost), +4 (for Energy Admixture), +2 (for Explosive Blast), +0 (Born of the Three Thunders) equals a level 9 spell.Or level 5 with Arcane Thesis.

Signmaker
2008-02-13, 04:03 PM
That's one of the issues so far. The combination may have to stop at Flash Frost.

Or, a wide-ranging damage spell needs to be found.

Douglas
2008-02-13, 04:06 PM
One piece of advice for anyone trying to use this: do not use the Archmage Mastery of Shaping ability to protect yourself from the effect. The 5' square you leave open will be the nearest border of the spell's area for everyone within half the radius of you, and you will be instantly buried under a gigantic pile consisting of everyone within the inner quarter of the spell's area who failed the reflex save. :smalleek:

Not that I recommend actually trying to use the Locate City bomb in a serious game, but that's an amusing way it could backfire on you. :smallbiggrin:

YPU
2008-02-13, 04:19 PM
if it ends up being lvl9 it still is a hell a lot of damage. if it indeed is the distance the target WOULD have moved before hitting the inescapable obstacle.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 04:22 PM
Or level 5 with Arcane Thesis.

Thanks I knew there was a feat I was forgetting.

Arcane Thesis, you have studied a single spell in-depth. When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal.

Since the PC needs Energy Admixture with the Locate City Level 1 spell +0 (for Snowcasting), +0 (for Flash Frost), +3 (for Energy Admixture), +1 (for Explosive Blast), +0 (Born of the Three Thunders) equals a base level 5 spell before any other feats or class specials are used to lower the meta.

We are talking 6 feats now to make it a level 5 spell using the Arcane Thesis feat.

Theoretically it could be dropped lower via a PRC like the Halruan Elder with the Adroit Casting special from Level 5 to level 3 but this becomes very feat intensive because the PRC needs the Halruaan Elder feat, Spell Thematics feat and an Item Creation feat in addition to any metamagic feat. I'm sure there is a better PRC in game to do it but that was the first that sprung to mind.

What percentage of DMs will have NPC wizards (Or Artificers in an ECS camapaign) with just the right feats so the PC can purchase the spell as a level 5 spell or lower without needing to take the feats so that he can learn it from a scroll?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-13, 04:30 PM
Who cares what percentage, it's still awesome.

The other thing? If I Sudden Maximize it, does that maximize all the damage dice?

Lochar
2008-02-13, 04:34 PM
No, the real fun is having a BBEG with that spell setup, having him scribe it to a scroll, teach of bunch of his mooks the basics in scroll reading (1 rank UMD), and then telling them to go forth and read until they get the spell off.

That'd be interesting.

Fighteer
2008-02-13, 04:34 PM
What percentage of DMs will have NPC wizards (Or Artificers in an ECS camapaign) with just the right feats so the PC can purchase the spell as a level 5 spell or lower without needing to take the feats so that he can learn it from a scroll?
I recall a discussion a while back where it was concluded that when you research a metamagicked spell from a scroll, you only learn the base spell. The converse makes no sense and is not supported anywhere in the rules.

Chronos
2008-02-13, 04:35 PM
What percentage of DMs will have NPC wizards (Or Artificers in an ECS camapaign) with just the right feats so the PC can purchase the spell as a level 5 spell or lower without needing to take the feats so that he can learn it from a scroll?You can't learn the Locate City bomb from a scroll. You could cast it from a scroll, but if you learn a spell from a scroll, you just learn the base spell, without any attached metamagic. So you're basically taking a scroll that you could use to lay waste to a small country, and instead using it to gain the ability to find a city somewhere.

On the matter of protecting yourself, you just need to make sure that you're surrounded on all sides by barriers. It doesn't need to be Forcecage; you could just cast it in your room at the inn. You'll still take a couple points of damage from the flash frost, and maybe a single d6 from hitting a (very nearby) wall or ceiling, but that's nothing your cleric can't take care of.

KoDT69
2008-02-13, 04:40 PM
Energy Substitution doesn't seem to work: *snip*

Yes, a couple people pointed that out already and I showed the exact same proof as to why we need Energy Admixture :smallsigh:


One piece of advice for anyone trying to use this: do not use the Archmage Mastery of Shaping ability to protect yourself from the effect. The 5' square you leave open will be the nearest border of the spell's area for everyone within half the radius of you, and you will be instantly buried under a gigantic pile consisting of everyone within the inner quarter of the spell's area who failed the reflex save. :smalleek:

Also mentioned multiple times already, hence my suggestion for casting Forcecage on yourself. All the debris that flies your way will be stopped by the Forcecage and not get to you.


if it ends up being lvl9 it still is a hell a lot of damage. if it indeed is the distance the target WOULD have moved before hitting the inescapable obstacle.

It most certainly is not "what you would have travelled". I've already stated according to the Explosive Spell feat description, it says 1d6 per 10ft you DID travel +1d6 for hitting something. If you went 25ft into a wall that would only be 3d6 damage.


We are talking 6 feats now to make it a level 5 spell using the Arcane Thesis feat.

Actually a 9th level human Wizard will have 2 feats at 1st level, 3 from 9 character levels, and a bonus feat at 5th. That's all 6 required. And if you consider this is a blasty type combo, the Wizard is more than likely going to be blasty focussed. Most of these feats are great for blaster Wizards. So yes, it could be possible.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 04:48 PM
You can't learn the Locate City bomb from a scroll. You could cast it from a scroll, but if you learn a spell from a scroll, you just learn the base spell, without any attached metamagic. So you're basically taking a scroll that you could use to lay waste to a small country, and instead using it to gain the ability to find a city somewhere.



Sorry I disagree. If a PC finds or buys this spell at level 5 or lower and the spell was scribed as a level 5 or lower spell (with the appropiate feats) and the PC acquires it in game he can make a successful scribe scroll check to write it in his spell book or learn it as a new "original" known spell for spontaneous casters like the sorcerer. Time to go spell scroll shopping in Sigil.

KoDT69
2008-02-13, 05:03 PM
I do not see a ruling in the SRD at all one way or the other. The section that says you can learn a spell from a scroll does not specifically state that you can learn anything but the base spell. Do you have a source that states it would work that way? It looks to me as if you only learn the base spell.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 05:08 PM
Yes, a couple people pointed that out already and I showed the exact same proof as to why we need Energy Admixture :smallsigh:

Actually a 9th level human Wizard will have 2 feats at 1st level, 3 from 9 character levels, and a bonus feat at 5th. That's all 6 required. And if you consider this is a blasty type combo, the Wizard is more than likely going to be blasty focussed. Most of these feats are great for blaster Wizards. So yes, it could be possible.

It was a nice proof but it is a convoluted spell. We are on page 3 now I simply clarified by including the Energy Substituion feat disqualifier so it wouldn't derail.

I believe Sstoopidtallkid was the first to mention applying the Arcane Thesis feat in this thread.

Never said it was impossible I asked two questions:

What percentage of DMs will have NPC wizards with just the right feats so the PC can purchase the spell as a level 9 spell or lower without needing to take the feats?

What percentage of DMs will have NPC wizards (Or Artificers in an ECS camapaign) with just the right feats so the PC can purchase the spell as a level 5 spell or lower without needing to take the feats so that he can learn it from a scroll?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-13, 05:10 PM
You can't. In fact, even if it was scribed with meta-magic, the metamagic still wouldn't go off. It's a specific artificer class feature that you can apply metamagic to spell completion items.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 05:15 PM
I do not see a ruling in the SRD at all one way or the other. The section that says you can learn a spell from a scroll does not specifically state that you can learn anything but the base spell. Do you have a source that states it would work that way? It looks to me as if you only learn the base spell.

Page 179 PHB spells copied from another's spellbook or a scroll.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 05:38 PM
You can't. In fact, even if it was scribed with meta-magic, the metamagic still wouldn't go off. It's a specific artificer class feature that you can apply metamagic to spell completion items.

I disagree. In most games a PC probably can't not because the rules clearly prohibit it but because a DM won't allow the PC to acquire the scroll in game from a NPC similar to Candles of Invocation or Wish scrolls but not in all games.

Fireball is a level 3 spell normally and a level 3 spell scroll has a market price of 375 gp. Empower is a +2 meta feat normally. An Empowered Fireball normally takes up a level 5 spell slot and if inscribed as a spell is a level 5 scroll costing 700 gp market. If the spell is cast from the scroll it will be Empowered even if the caster does not have the feat. If the PC can make a successful spellcraft check he could learn it as an unusual known spell as a sorcerer or as a unusual level 5 spell as a wizard.

I mentioned the ECS Artificer class because they can Scribe Scrolls as a class special and benefit from taking lots of meta feats because of what they can do with wands.

WrstDmEvr
2008-02-13, 05:58 PM
T
Since the PC needs Energy Admixture with the Locate City Level 1 spell +0 (for Snowcasting), +0 (for Flash Frost), +3 (for Energy Admixture), +1 (for Explosive Blast), +0 (Born of the Three Thunders) equals a base level 5 spell before any other feats or class specials are used to lower the meta.

How about a Wizard 5/Incantrix 10? Thats 6 feats from regular class levels and four bonus feats. Pile on Sudden Maximize, Sudden Enlarge, Heighten Spell with one feat left over.

+0 for Snowcasting, + 0 for Flash Frost, +2 for Energy Admixture, + 0 for Explosive spell, and + 0 for Three Thunders. Thats base 3.

This character will get 18 casts per day, with 14 being upgraded by Heighten Spell. Casting the 8th level slot first, with Int 22, you get DC 22. Most commoners will fail that. The radius is now 20 miles/level, so you get 20x15 or 300 mile radius. Explosive Spell deals 1d6 per 10 feet, right? So 158,400d6 and since its maximized, you get 950,400 damage. Heck, you could add the regular Maximize and Enlarge feats in for base spell level 5, for 10 casts of it per day, all dealing identical damage. Admittedly, that would kill you, but investing in a Permanent Greater Spell Immunity would negate that.

ColdBrew
2008-02-13, 06:00 PM
An Empowered Fireball normally takes up a level 5 spell slot and if inscribed as a spell is a level 5 scroll costing 700 gp market. If the spell is cast from the scroll it will be Empowered even if the caster does not have the feat. If the PC can make a successful spellcraft check he could learn it as an unusual known spell as a sorcerer or as a unusual level 5 spell as a wizard.
No. Empowered Fireball is not a spell. Fireball is a spell. The spell on the scroll is Fireball, and it has the Empower Spell metamagic feat applied to it. Because of this metamagic, it took up a level 5 spell slot in the scriber's head, and is as difficult to scribe (and priced accordingly) as a level 5 spell. It is not actually a level 5 spell. If you wish to learn the spell, you may learn Fireball. It will be a third level spell and function as Fireball should in your campaign.

I compare it to learning to paint a happy little tree. You're a better painter than me, and use a variety of brushes, a wide pallette, and a quality canvas to paint a vivid depiction of a tree. I study your example, and learn to paint trees as well. Unfortunately, I didn't take a feat to give me the ability to use nice brushes, so I'm stuck with the roller my dad gave me when I was 10. I can make something that's obviously a tree, but it's not a 50% happier tree like the example I learned from. On the other hand, it only takes me 3 hours to paint as opposed to the 5 you spent on yours.

edit: To complete the analogy: I could have simply shown someone your painting, and it would have made them 50% happier than a tree I could paint myself. Instead, I chose to learn Happy Tree from it, but all I could get was the basics, since being painted with nice brushes that make it 50% happier is not an intrinsic quality of the subject Happy Tree.

illathid
2008-02-13, 06:17 PM
Thanks I knew there was a feat I was forgetting.

Arcane Thesis, you have studied a single spell in-depth. When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal.

Since the PC needs Energy Admixture with the Locate City Level 1 spell +0 (for Snowcasting), +0 (for Flash Frost), +3 (for Energy Admixture), +1 (for Explosive Blast), +0 (Born of the Three Thunders) equals a base level 5 spell before any other feats or class specials are used to lower the meta.

We are talking 6 feats now to make it a level 5 spell using the Arcane Thesis feat.


Actually when using Arcane Thesis, it would be a a lvl 4 spell. This is because you have +0 (for Snowcasting, which is a general feat and doesn't use a higher slot anyways), +0 (for Flash Frost), +3 (For Energy Admixture), -1 (for Born of Three Thunders), +1 (for explosive spell).

There are other ways to reduce metamagic cost out there (like the Incantrix) that could be used in this combo as well.

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 06:19 PM
Don't forget, an artificer can also do this with a wand of locate city using metamagic spell trigger, if they have the right metamagic feats.

Here's an interesting question: Suppose you cast this spell near a small city that is promptly and utterly destroyed by all the people being flung around. Do you detect it, or not?


One piece of advice for anyone trying to use this: do not use the Archmage Mastery of Shaping ability to protect yourself from the effect. The 5' square you leave open will be the nearest border of the spell's area for everyone within half the radius of you, and you will be instantly buried under a gigantic pile consisting of everyone within the inner quarter of the spell's area who failed the reflex save. :smalleek:

Not that I recommend actually trying to use the Locate City bomb in a serious game, but that's an amusing way it could backfire on you. :smallbiggrin:Note that Born of the Three Thunders only forces a save if you take damage. The damage is is ˝ Electricity and ˝ Sonic, which means one point of each; if you can get 1 point of sonic resistance and 1 point of electricity resistance, or resistance that applies to both, you'll be fine.

This also means that the Locate City Bomb will deal no damage to anyone immune to both electricity and sonic (but you gotta be immune to both, and not many things are.)

Oh... also. Countersong works on it because of the [Sonic] descriptor. This is actually a good thing, since all countersong does is improve the saves of anyone within 30 feet of the bard. Get a bard with maxed perform to play countersong within 30 feet of you, and there's no way either you or them will fail your saves... you can protect the whole party easily like that. Anyone not within 30 feet of the bard is still screwed.

You'll still take 2 damage, though. Be careful about that.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 06:27 PM
No. Empowered Fireball is not a spell. Fireball is a spell. The spell on the scroll is Fireball, and it has the Empower Spell metamagic feat applied to it. Because of this metamagic, it took up a level 5 spell slot in the scriber's head, and is as difficult to scribe (and priced accordingly) as a level 5 spell. It is not actually a level 5 spell. If you wish to learn the spell, you may learn Fireball. It will be a third level spell and function as Fireball should in your campaign.

I compare it to learning to paint a happy little tree. You're a better painter than me, and use a variety of brushes, a wide pallette, and a quality canvas to paint a vivid depiction of a tree. I study your example, and learn to paint trees as well. Unfortunately, I didn't take a feat to give me the ability to use nice brushes, so I'm stuck with the roller my dad gave me when I was 10. I can make something that's obviously a tree, but it's not a 50% happier tree like the example I learned from. On the other hand, it only takes me 3 hours to paint as opposed to the 5 you spent on yours.


[/I]

Yes it is if it is discovered as a standard level 5 scribed spell scroll of Empower Fireball unless you can show where the rules specifically prohibit this. (Realistically in game how many DMs are going to do this more than a few times if any? Usually benefits a party with a wizard and a generalist sorcerer or only a sorcerer the most).

Regarding your painting analogy someone with the Empower meta is a master "Empower" spells painter who paints a Empower Tree (Fireball).

The master can apply the feat to any of his spells the meta could benefit plus he can still cast Fireball and Empowered Fireball.

The student can only apply it to a single tree (the level 5 Empowered Fireball spell). The student cannot cast the level 3 Fireball spell just because he knows an unusual level 5 spell Empowered Fireball just like a PC who knows Teleport doesn't automatically get to cast the Dimension Door spell for simply knowing the Teleport spell.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 06:29 PM
Actually when using Arcane Thesis, it would be a a lvl 4 spell. This is because you have +0 (for Snowcasting, which is a general feat and doesn't use a higher slot anyways), +0 (for Flash Frost), +3 (For Energy Admixture), -1 (for Born of Three Thunders), +1 (for explosive spell).

There are other ways to reduce metamagic cost out there (like the Incantrix) that could be used in this combo as well.

What rules are you using to apply negative meta to the spell to lower it to level 4?

Chronos
2008-02-13, 06:43 PM
Here's a question, CASTLEMIKE... If a wizard (let's say he has a 15 Int) scribes Empowered Fireball into his spellbook, as you claim he can, and then casts it, what's the save DC? If it's a 5th-level spell, then the DC would be 10 + 5 (level) + 2 (Int modifier) = 17. But if that same character had applied the Empower feat to a normal fireball, then the DC would be 10 + 3 + 2 = 15. So not only is he getting the benefits of the Empower feat on his special fireball, but he's also getting a free Heighten on it, too? Where did that come from?

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 06:46 PM
Looking back over this thread and reading the feats involved, I can see a few people (including me) have misunderstood parts of how this works.

First. The spell is always centered on you, that's how Locate City is worded. You can't just name a city and blow it up, more's the pity.

Second. The way saves work in this is somewhat confusing. There are two of them, a fort save and a ref save, and you have to fail both of them to take more than 2 damage. Neither save is for half damage, as some people seem to think, so evasion is never a factor (and isn't necessary -- if you make either save, you take only 2 damage from the frost flash.)

It works like this. Born of the Three Thunders calls for two saves: A fort save to avoid being stunned, and a ref save, which occurs only if you are actually stunned, to avoid being knocked prone.

Explosive Spell only triggers on creatures that fail the ref save. At that point, you're screwed -- there's no third save to reduce the damage from Explosive Spell or anything like that, so Evasion won't help you.

Also note that the Locate City Bomb has (almost) no effect on creatures immune to stunning... and there are a lot of things immune to stunning. Constructs, undead, plants, oozes, and elementals are all totally unaffected. If you don't get stunned, you don't roll a reflex save, and if you don't roll and fail the reflex save then the Locate City Bomb only does 2 damage to you.

On the other hand, if the caster is immune to stunning, they're safe, at least.

illathid
2008-02-13, 06:47 PM
What rules are you using to apply negative meta to the spell to lower it to level 4?

Arcane Thesis. A metamagic feat that has a +0 to the spell slot used turns into -1 when used on a spell that one has Arcane Thesis for. The only requirement is that the spell slot used can't be lower than the original spell slot used by the spell. Check the Errata for the PHBII.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-13, 06:48 PM
Explosive Spell only triggers on creatures that fail the ref save. At that point, you're screwed -- there's no third save to reduce the damage from Explosive Spell or anything like that, so Evasion won't help you.

Evasion won't, but Slow Fall, high ranks in Tumble, and feather fall will!

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 06:51 PM
Arcane Thesis. A metamagic feat that has a +0 to the spell slot used turns into -1 when used on a spell that one has Arcane Thesis for. The only requirement is that the spell slot used can't be lower than the original spell slot used by the spell. Check the Errata for the PHBII.

Thanks I have the PHB II but wasn't aware negative meta had been made official. Then it could useful with a PRC like Halruaan Elder which could be used to further reduce the other meta and lower the spell even lower (theoretically as it would require more feats).

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 06:52 PM
Evasion won't, but Slow Fall, high ranks in Tumble, and feather fall will!Well, technically, it won't (explosive spell just says it deals 1d6 damage for each 10 feet you're moved, regardless of whether you land lightly or slow yourself down or are thrown into a pile of feathers or whatever.) Most DMs would probably let you reduce the damage like that, of course, since the intent is plainly for it to be impact damage from extreme velocity... but most DMs aren't going to be using the Locate City Bomb in their campaigns in the first place anyway.


Thanks I have the PHB II but wasn't aware negative meta had been made official.
It was sort of by accident. Someone at WotC heard about it reducing a spell's overall level, I think, so they said "OMYGOD" and released an errata that said you can't do that.

The problem is, the errata just says that the final spell can't be below it's original level, and there's not really any way to read that but as a confirmation that, yes, individual metamagic modifiers can be reduced below 0 (otherwise, why make a specific rule for a situation that can only arise using individual metamagic modifiers below 0?)

Kurald Galain
2008-02-13, 06:54 PM
Fireball is a level 3 spell normally and a level 3 spell scroll has a market price of 375 gp. Empower is a +2 meta feat normally. An Empowered Fireball normally takes up a level 5 spell slot and if inscribed as a spell is a level 5 scroll costing 700 gp market. If the spell is cast from the scroll it will be Empowered even if the caster does not have the feat.

The problem with this reasoning is that it makes all the metamagic feats obsolete. Rather than taking, say, Enlarge Spell, the wizard could simply spend a bunch of coins to get enlarged versions of any or all of his spells. I don't believe that's what the rules are intended to be, and I have yet to meet a DM who would allow this.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 07:05 PM
Here's a question, CASTLEMIKE... If a wizard (let's say he has a 15 Int) scribes Empowered Fireball into his spellbook, as you claim he can, and then casts it, what's the save DC? If it's a 5th-level spell, then the DC would be 10 + 5 (level) + 2 (Int modifier) = 17. But if that same character had applied the Empower feat to a normal fireball, then the DC would be 10 + 3 + 2 = 15. So not only is he getting the benefits of the Empower feat on his special fireball, but he's also getting a free Heighten on it, too? Where did that come from?

Great post. IMO it's the second feat Scribe Scroll that adds the Heighten Spell effect scribing a level 5 scroll.

Frosty
2008-02-13, 07:23 PM
As far as I'm concerned, people who try to use 0-adjust metamagic feats to balance out other meta-adjustments can burn in hell.

A energy-substitutioned, Lord of the Uttercold, Empowered fireball will take up a level 4 spell slot in my games, assuming the Fireball was the choice for Arcane Thesis.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 07:25 PM
The problem with this reasoning is that it makes all the metamagic feats obsolete. Rather than taking, say, Enlarge Spell, the wizard could simply spend a bunch of coins to get enlarged versions of any or all of his spells. I don't believe that's what the rules are intended to be, and I have yet to meet a DM who would allow this.

I disagree that it makes all the meta magic feats obsolete although I concede it makes some less useful. I like it for generalist sorcerers with their limited feats and limited known spell lists and for using the meta effect for researching original spell effects of the appropiate level.

I've never played in a game where a DM would let me go to the old scroll store (even just visiting Sigil) and buy any PHB scroll I wanted at market price much less the other source book spells or as many spells as I wanted. Of course now I know the PC just needs to go to ECS and find an Artificer with the right feat (Of course that would be theoretically with player knowledge versus PC knowledge since not all campaigns use ECS and the DMs might have those Artificers busy cranking out Elemental Vessels and other magic items for House Cannith).

Never had a PC obtain (craft or purchase) a copy of the Tome of Ancient Lore 22,000 gp market and a feat at L9+ for every spell in the game to write into my Boccob's Blessed Spell Books.

This was always nice for side trek adventures and bartering for an unusual spell in game and actually gives the DM a bit more control of his game with an optimizer like myself willing to play a sorcerer instead of a wizard.

Maerok
2008-02-13, 07:34 PM
Well, you could look at it as Explosive Spell merely giving examples of what an Area spell should be.:smalltongue:

Anyways, AFtS with this trick and giving yourself a space to stand in doesn't work, because as the CO boards point out, you are likely to be the "nearest available space" and thus get pi*400*400 square miles(502654 sq. miles) of bodies flying towards you at 33 miles a second(120000 mph!).:smalleek:

Hmm, Colour Spray or Burning Hands for low level "Begone!" effect?

Not to kill catgirls or anything, but would someone flying at 120000 mph through the atmosphere burn up?

Foeofthelance
2008-02-13, 07:57 PM
Actually, my only question on this, do people who are caught flatfooted get reflex saves? I can't honestly remember, and if not, this might be a good way to get rid of a thieves guild/monastary...

"We can dodge anything!" FOOOOM

TheMeanDM
2008-02-13, 08:07 PM
It says extra:

Flash Frost Spell, your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.

Benefit: This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area. A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area.......

A spell *must* deal damage first before being able to add +2 damage.

Otherwise, all I would need to do is...as someone pointed out...cast "Bless" or "Aid" or "Mass, Aid" or some other non-offensive spell that doesn't deal damage.

I must say that anyone arguing that a spell that deals 0 damage to begin with, but gets to add +2 damage / level to non-existent damage to begin with...is:

a) delusional
b) munchkin gaming

:smallbiggrin:

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-13, 08:12 PM
Here's a question, CASTLEMIKE... If a wizard (let's say he has a 15 Int) scribes Empowered Fireball into his spellbook, as you claim he can, and then casts it, what's the save DC? If it's a 5th-level spell, then the DC would be 10 + 5 (level) + 2 (Int modifier) = 17. But if that same character had applied the Empower feat to a normal fireball, then the DC would be 10 + 3 + 2 = 15. So not only is he getting the benefits of the Empower feat on his special fireball, but he's also getting a free Heighten on it, too? Where did that come from?

And remember...chain lightning cannot be learned from a scroll with the metamagic feat attached either...and it doesn't count as a 6th level spell when cast...

wait...

it does...

now I am confused...

It was addressed when they added the feat 'chain spell' to the list of metamagic that some spells have developed such a knack for being used with certian metamagic feats that they become their own spell over time. Supposidly, chain lightning is such a spell...however, if chain lightning is just a metamagiced lightning spell...why does it count as a 6th level spell? Why can any wizard/sorc learn it and doesn't need to worry about the chain spell feat?

did the writers get caught in a logical oops...possibly...the end result is a core example of a metamagiced spell being a new 'permanent' spell that exists at the higher level.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-13, 08:14 PM
A spell *must* deal damage first before being able to add +2 damage.

According to what?

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-13, 08:16 PM
A spell *must* deal damage first before being able to add +2 damage.

Otherwise, all I would need to do is...as someone pointed out...cast "Bless" or "Aid" or "Mass, Aid" or some other non-offensive spell that doesn't deal damage.

I must say that anyone arguing that a spell that deals 0 damage to begin with, but gets to add +2 damage / level to non-existent damage to begin with...is:

a) delusional
b) munchkin gaming

:smallbiggrin:

the back up of this is found many places, I don't remmeber which example specifically, but for effects that added damage to spells or abilities it would only add damage to an ability that did damage. If there was no base damage, there would be no addition. It was saying that there was no adding damage effects to spells like bane, or fly, or any other non-damage dealing spell.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-13, 08:19 PM
according to this:



FLASH FROST SPELL
Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.


Locate City does NOT deal damage. Sorry.

If it said that Locate City even did 0.0001d0.0000001 damage, then you could apply the +2 damage.

Otherwise, there is no damage being dealt by Locate City.

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-13, 08:24 PM
On the other hand, if the caster is immune to stunning, they're safe, at least.

Nope. Immunity to Stun =/= Immunity to Daze.

I also reviewed after a night of sleep, and realised that the speed should be halved(to 60k mph), because only those creatures within the inner half will fly towards you(and only those at the extreme edge of that half will reach that velocity). Those in the outer half fly out. Of course, if you're in the middle and you don't make your square the "no effect here" one, they still hit 120k.

Zeal
2008-02-13, 08:30 PM
the back up of this is found many places, I don't remmeber which example specifically, but for effects that added damage to spells or abilities it would only add damage to an ability that did damage. If there was no base damage, there would be no addition. It was saying that there was no adding damage effects to spells like bane, or fly, or any other non-damage dealing spell.

I'd really like to see a link or page number on this, keep the munchkins at bay in my game.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 09:04 PM
according to this:



Locate City does NOT deal damage. Sorry.

If it said that Locate City even did 0.0001d0.0000001 damage, then you could apply the +2 damage.

Otherwise, there is no damage being dealt by Locate City.

Great catch. I overlooked that first sentence in the Flash Frost Spell feat which immediately precedes the Benefit text myself.


The Locate City spell is a level 1 divination spell that does not deal damage.

The Snowcasting feat makes it a "Cold" Locate City divination spell that does not deal damage.

Since the "Cold" Locate City divination spell does not deal damage it cannot have the Flash Frost Feat applied to it as per the feat description itself.

The City Bomb is based around a feat that cannot be applied to the Locate City spell so it can't work in game by RAW.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Flash_Frost_Spell,all

Flash Frost Spell
Type: Metamagic
Source: Player's Handbook II

Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.

Benefit: This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area. A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area .......

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Snowcasting,all

Snowcasting
Type: General
Source: Frostburn

You add ice or snow to your spell's components to make them more powerful.

Prerequisite: Con 13.
Benefit: If you add a handful of snow or ice as an additional material component to a spell when you cast it, the spell gains the cold descriptor. This does not actually change the nature of the spell you cast; a fireball cast with this feat still deals fire damage, but since it also carries the cold descriptor, it can be augmented by a number of feats listed in this chapter, such as Cold Focus and Frozen Magic.

Draco Ignifer
2008-02-13, 09:08 PM
Y'know, you can have a similar effect with a diviner who takes Heighten Spell, Flash Frost, and Snowcasting. The spell does 2 points per level, so over the course of four minutes, you can deal 360 damage to everything in that massive radius by expending all your spells... not as impressive, but zero save. Not a lot is going to live through this.

If you use Arcane Thesis, Incanatrix, Twin Spell, Energy Admixture, and Repeat Spell, assuming Heighten Spell can't be reduced (I forget, so this makes a good baseline) and that Incanatrix's metamagic reduction is added second (Just to be unfavorable - makes sure Flash Frost is only +0), you get 880 damage, with 410 of that as the element of your choice... fire or acid, perhaps, to get all of those nasty regenerating creatures? Regardless, you still kill everything, and this time it's actually mostly everything... everyone in enclosed spaces, everyone who has a decent fortitude or reflex save, everyone who isn't resistant to both of those elements or resistant to one with a lot of HP.

As a plus, the majority of damage pierces globe of invulnerability.

Also, if you want to adapt this to more generally destructive ends, just go with Arcane Thesis, Incanatrix, Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, and Admixture (Acid). This will deal 60 damage to everything made of metal, 100 to everything made of stone, 245 to everything made of wood, and 680 to everything made of meat. This, for the reference, is enough to annihilate foot thick masonry walls, two inch thick iron doors, and any unattended, nonmagical items not made out of mithril or stronger.

Yeah, the giant dice of damage make people go "ooh!", but sometimes you should be waiting to say "ahh..." instead.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-13, 09:09 PM
I'd really like to see a link or page number on this, keep the munchkins at bay in my game.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is an entry in the Complete Mage, page 54 and 57, for the ability 'Eldritch Spellweave' available to Eldritch Theurge and Disciples. It follows the same established mechanic that if you have an effect that adds damage, then you must apply it to a spell that deals damage, otherwise, no dice. (no hellrime blast to charm monster is one example, and no to dimensional anchor either).

I am sure there are a few other examples of it in other books but I can't remember where. The ability Eldritch Spellweave is just the one I remember.

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 09:18 PM
Nope. Immunity to Stun =/= Immunity to Daze.That's not what I meant. It protects them from being blown to smithereens if they fail their saves. Being dazed for one round is minor compared to that.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-13, 09:18 PM
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is an entry in the Complete Mage, page 54 and 57, for the ability 'Eldritch Spellweave' available to Eldritch Theurge and Disciples. It follows the same established mechanic that if you have an effect that adds damage, then you must apply it to a spell that deals damage, otherwise, no dice. (no hellrime blast to charm monster is one example, and no to dimensional anchor either).

I am sure there are a few other examples of it in other books but I can't remember where. The ability Eldritch Spellweave is just the one I remember.

But that is not a general rule. That only applies to Warlocks.
There are no other examples.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-13, 10:22 PM
Flash Frost Spell
Type: Metamagic
Source: Player's Handbook II

Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.

Benefit: This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area. A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area

The 'benefit' is the only part of the feat description that has any mechanical effect and is the only part that is applicable. You may note that the SRD only includes the section of metamagic feats that is listed under the 'benefit'. Thus, this 'fluff' may be stripped away and disregarded as merely colorful description.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 10:32 PM
The 'benefit' is the only part of the feat description that has any mechanical effect and is the only part that is applicable. You may note that the SRD only includes the section of metamagic feats that is listed under the 'benefit'. Thus, this 'fluff' may be stripped away and disregarded as merely colorful description.

I disagree in the feat description it clearly stipulates:

Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.

Since this "fluff" prohibits the use of the feat in the City Bomb manner it is actually crunch. Although a Snow Cast Locate City spell may be a "Cold" Divination spell it doesn't damage your foes so by RAW the Flash Frost Spell feat may not be applied as per the complete wording of the feat. In fact both of the feats Snowcasting and Flash Frost Spell reference damage done by the base spell which the Locate City divination spell does not do. The benefit is only applied to a spell that does cold damage.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-13, 10:58 PM
I disagree in the feat description it clearly stipulates:

Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.

Since this "fluff" prohibits the use of the feat in the City Bomb manner it is actually crunch. Although a Snow Cast Locate City spell may be a "Cold" Divination spell it doesn't damage your foes so by RAW the Flash Frost Spell feat may not be applied as per the complete wording of the feat. In fact both of the feats Snowcasting and Flash Frost Spell reference damage done by the base spell which the Locate City divination spell does not do. The benefit is only applied to a spell that does cold damage.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that anyone should let this ever happen.

I still feel that I'm correct in my interpretation. Consider what the SRD says about feat descriptions:



Feat Descriptions

Here is the format for feat descriptions.
Feat Name [Type Of Feat]

Prerequisite
A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or a class level that a character must have in order to acquire this feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.

Benefit
What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

The PHB says the same thing, but adds this line before the 'prerequisites':


Description of what the feat does or represents in plain language.

This indicates that the text preceding the 'prerequisites' and 'benefit' sections is nothing more than a dumbed-down description in layman's terms and has no actual bearing on function.

As an example, if you asked me what dog food is for and I say 'it's for feeding the dogs,' a literal interpretation would mean that the dog food is in some way used in the process of feeding the dogs, but is not actually the thing that is fed to the dogs. But what I was actually doing was giving a general description of what it's for. If someone wanted an in-depth description of the use of dog food, I would describe the full method of using it and how exactly it is fed to the dogs. [/smartass] :smallwink:

Zeful
2008-02-13, 11:15 PM
I disagree in the feat description it clearly stipulates:

Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.

Since this "fluff" prohibits the use of the feat in the City Bomb manner it is actually crunch. Although a Snow Cast Locate City spell may be a "Cold" Divination spell it doesn't damage your foes so by RAW the Flash Frost Spell feat may not be applied as per the complete wording of the feat. In fact both of the feats Snowcasting and Flash Frost Spell reference damage done by the base spell which the Locate City divination spell does not do. The benefit is only applied to a spell that does cold damage.

Except, in D&D the fluff has no meaning save to give a frame of reference to make everything understandable to the reader. If it said somewhere in the Benefit section of the feat that this feat can only be applied to "spells with the [Cold] descriptor that affect an area and deal damage," then you might be right. However nowhere do the excerpts of the feats posted does it say that, so the interpenetration is valid.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 11:33 PM
I initially favored the spell in game despite Mystra the Greater Power of Magic being unable to cast it in game except via Anyspell Greater or duplication (Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish (In core plus a few more in source books) according to her stats in Faiths and Pantheons without creating an original spell equal to the meta versions via one of her divine rank feats.

The Description of what the feat does or represents in plain language and the empahsis the individual game places on it (We are arguing a point of RAW in the feat description referencing using Cold to Damage your foes):

"Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost."

That pretty much nails it for me in RAW "laymen's" terms the "Cold" spell had to do "Damage" is the best reason for a DM to keep it out of his game (Better than the No! Not in my game). Since a "Cold" Locate City spell doesn't do damage it can't have the Flash Frost Spell meta feat applied to it. The Snow Casting feat referenced damage and a "Cold" Fireball spell.

Would it be a fun spell to play with in game? Sure. Instant wealth generator cast it a few times and go loot the town or metropolis (Like Sharn or Waterdeep). Despite Mindblanks Communes would still identify the culprits which could make for an interesting game. BBEGs who want the spell, some who had relatives or associates..... and the same for other good organizations.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-14, 12:11 AM
Well, since we can't agree on whether or not the fluff counts or not I think we have to agree to disagree here, Mike. I'm sure you're right as far as RAI goes, but I'm pretty sure I'm right as far as RAW goes. I don't think we'll get anything further without consulting custserv or something.

SyrkthTheGreedy
2008-02-14, 12:38 AM
I've been reading the thread and the spell has interesting if "different" potential :smallamused:
But as I read it, the Explosive Spell feat can't apply to the combination, since
Explosive Spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area (a cone, cylinder, line, or burst).
Which, unless I missed something, Locate City doesn't allow a reflex save.
Thus, everyone stands around and takes 2 points of cold damage from the Flash Frost Spell feat (which doesn't trigger a reflex save either).
The only objection I can see to the Reflex save problem is that Born of the Three Thunders feat does force a reflex save, though since it's the effect of the feat forcing the save rather than the spell, I'd say it's still a no-go.

Anyhoo, that's my two-bits. Agree? Disagree?

Mark Hall
2008-02-14, 12:42 AM
The only objection I can see to the Reflex save problem is that Born of the Three Thunders feat does force a reflex save, though since it's the effect of the feat forcing the save rather than the spell, I'd say it's still a no-go.

Anyhoo, that's my two-bits. Agree? Disagree?

I would say that, as a metamagic feat, BoTT alters the spell so the spell forces the save, rather than the feat itself forcing one. Without a spell, it doesn't do anything.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-14, 03:05 AM
I've been reading the thread and the spell has interesting if "different" potential :smallamused:
But as I read it, the Explosive Spell feat can't apply to the combination, since
Which, unless I missed something, Locate City doesn't allow a reflex save.
Thus, everyone stands around and takes 2 points of cold damage from the Flash Frost Spell feat (which doesn't trigger a reflex save either).
The only objection I can see to the Reflex save problem is that Born of the Three Thunders feat does force a reflex save, though since it's the effect of the feat forcing the save rather than the spell, I'd say it's still a no-go.

Anyhoo, that's my two-bits. Agree? Disagree?
I disagree. A metamagic feat, when used, simply adds to a spell's normal affects, it doesn't do something apart from the spell entirely.

Edit: Darn ninjas.

KoDT69
2008-02-14, 07:37 AM
Well, since we can't agree on whether or not the fluff counts or not I think we have to agree to disagree here, Mike. I'm sure you're right as far as RAI goes, but I'm pretty sure I'm right as far as RAW goes. I don't think we'll get anything further without consulting custserv or something.

I agree with you IF. The SRD only includes the benefit and excludes the fluff. It should be clear that the fluff states WotC's RAI in plain english, while they state the mechanical crunch in the Beneit section. So yes they may have intended it to add to a damaging spell then they failed their Craft: Rational Game Mechanic skill check when applying crunch to Flash Frost. A lot of those little oversights in crunch are why the Theoretical Optomization boards are so fun. Find and exploit the writer's oversights (or lack of cohesive thought processes). Just look at a lot of the Epic Feats in that other thread. Some break the game, and some are worthless even as a non-epic feat. WotC is not infallible. They wrote it wrong, so we theoretically abuse it.

I would allow it in my games. I don't care if my players think they're slick like that, because there are always countless NPC's that know similar tactics. The real question is, do they want me to use the same tacticas on them? Yeah, I don't think so. :smallbiggrin:

Mooch
2008-02-14, 12:35 PM
I've seen this done with appocalypse from the sky, which has the same radius, but does 10d6 damage to everyone. So it does damage base, which means that it can wipe out buildings on top of everything else. There was also a way to prevent the square the caster was in from being hit, so everything in a 200 mile radius around you is toast, but you're fine. Of course, people looked at it and realized it could also dig a crater about 3 miles deep, so that little piller you're standing on won't be standing for long...

what is the apocalypse from the sky spell? I have never heard of it, what does it do

lord_khaine
2008-02-14, 12:51 PM
its a spell from BoVD that does some 10d6 points of damage to everything within some 18 miles, and requires a artifact as spell focus.

and since you can block the damage to yourself with a simple protection from elements, then avoiding the damage is hardly a major issue.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-14, 02:21 PM
its a spell from BoVD that does some 10d6 points of damage to everything within some 18 miles, and requires a artifact as spell focus.

and since you can block the damage to yourself with a simple protection from elements, then avoiding the damage is hardly a major issue.

About protecting yourself from the effects of your own locate city bomb. Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) would get the job done, wouldn't it?

Edit: Double-post. :p I prefer the idea of getting a spell immunity (locate city) cast by a cleric though.

Wizard: Cast a spell immunity on me.
Cleric: All right, which spell do you need immunity to.
Wizard: Locate city. Here's the relevant page in my spellbook.
Cleric: Okay. In the name of Thor-- wait... locate city?
Wizard: Oh, and after you cast it, you might want to get very, very far away.

Aquillion
2008-02-14, 02:43 PM
About protecting yourself from the effects of your own locate city bomb. Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) would get the job done, wouldn't it?

Edit: Double-post. :p I prefer the idea of getting a spell immunity (locate city) cast by a cleric though.

Wizard: Cast a spell immunity on me.
Cleric: All right, which spell do you need immunity to.
Wizard: Locate city. Here's the relevant page in my spellbook.
Cleric: Okay. In the name of Thor-- wait... locate city?
Wizard: Oh, and after you cast it, you might want to get very, very far away.Yes, but (as noted) so will a simple 'protection from elements'. Anything that blocks the 1 sonic, 1 thunder damage will also prevent the rest of the effects from hurting you.

Or you could just make either one of two saves against a level 1 spell. Not hard. Especially if you have a bard using countersong (with a decent-level bard, it's probably impossible to fail except on a 1 -- which you'd have to roll twice.) Or be immune to stunning.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-14, 02:47 PM
Yes, but (as noted) so will a simple 'protection from elements'. Anything that blocks the 1 sonic, 1 thunder damage will also prevent the rest of the effects from hurting you.

Or you could just make either one of two saves against a level 1 spell. Not hard. Especially if you have a bard using countersong (with a decent-level bard, it's probably impossible to fail except on a 1 -- which you'd have to roll twice.) Or be immune to stunning.

You can't have 2 Protection spells up. You'll need Protection E (A or B) and Resist E (B or A, which you didn't protect).
That or have resist from class or magic item.

Rift_Wolf
2008-02-14, 07:56 PM
Couldn't you use the feat string with Discern Location to undo Creation?
...Except for a bunch of rogues, monks and rangers, floating in the aether....

Chronos
2008-02-14, 08:54 PM
No, because Discern Location very sensibly has a range (as Locate City should have) instead of an area.

On the question of protecting oneself, I again point out that you don't even need magic. Just stand in a small room when you cast the spell, and you'll only lose a handful of HP.

Keld Denar
2008-02-14, 11:36 PM
I would say that, as a metamagic feat, BoTT alters the spell so the spell forces the save, rather than the feat itself forcing one. Without a spell, it doesn't do anything.

This is the same logic that I've heard used in the case against combining reach spell (or archmage reach) and chain spell. Since each feat checks the base text for applicablility (see the maximize + empower examples) even though reach spell allows the spell to be cast at close range, it doesn't actually change the spell to say close range before chain spell checks the range anymore than maximize spell sets the d6 roll to 6 before empower multiplies the damage by 1.5.

Therefore, since the base Locate City spell DOESN'T have a save, explosive can't check that as an applicable prereq even though Born of 3 Thunders gives the spell a save.

Beren One-Hand
2008-02-15, 12:00 AM
This is the same logic that I've heard used in the case against combining reach spell (or archmage reach) and chain spell. Since each feat checks the base text for applicablility (see the maximize + empower examples) even though reach spell allows the spell to be cast at close range, it doesn't actually change the spell to say close range before chain spell checks the range anymore than maximize spell sets the d6 roll to 6 before empower multiplies the damage by 1.5.

Therefore, since the base Locate City spell DOESN'T have a save, explosive can't check that as an applicable prereq even though Born of 3 Thunders gives the spell a save.

By this reasoning the Snowcasting enhancement would be useless.
As I've seen it listed here the only thing it does is give the spell a [Cold] descriptor for the cost of +1 spell level. The whole purpose of that is so the spell can now be enhanced by various feats that work on spells with a [Cold] descriptor.

If what you're arguing is true, it would raise the spell level and get nothing in return because the other feats check the original spell, which doesn't have the [Cold] descriptor.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-02-15, 12:09 AM
If metamagic feats and abilities only checked the original spell instead of also including previous metamagics, then Snowcasting would be utterly useless, as it does nothing but tack on that [cold] descriptor... So I don't think that's the case.

Mark Hall
2008-02-15, 12:35 AM
This is the same logic that I've heard used in the case against combining reach spell (or archmage reach) and chain spell. Since each feat checks the base text for applicablility (see the maximize + empower examples) even though reach spell allows the spell to be cast at close range, it doesn't actually change the spell to say close range before chain spell checks the range anymore than maximize spell sets the d6 roll to 6 before empower multiplies the damage by 1.5.

See, this is something I disagree with. I'd say that it doesn't check against the base spell, but against the newly altered spell... reach spell checks against the base, and chain spell checks against the altered spell. That's why the modifiers stack, instead of overlapping... it gets progressively more complex, instead of just moderately so.

Funkyodor
2008-02-15, 02:56 AM
If that is the case then Energy Substitution will work, and Admixture is not required, because it changes the [cold] to [sonic] after the previous metamagic has checked for [cold] to do damage... and that sounds super munchkin'ny. What I believe is that all metamagic feats must be applicable after all metamagic feats are applied. So if one feat changes the spell in a way that violates a previous feat, then the whole thing collapses. Like, if one feat changed a spell to a short range, but another could only be applied touch spells then the whole spell falls apart.

Also I don't know the exact wording of Born of Three Thunders, because if it says it changes the energy type to [electrical][sonic] then it removes the [cold] descriptor and that flash freeze thingy falls off and no damage is dealt.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-15, 03:59 AM
If that is the case then Energy Substitution will work, and Admixture is not required, because it changes the [cold] to [sonic] after the previous metamagic has checked for [cold] to do damage... and that sounds super munchkin'ny. What I believe is that all metamagic feats must be applicable after all metamagic feats are applied. So if one feat changes the spell in a way that violates a previous feat, then the whole thing collapses. Like, if one feat changed a spell to a short range, but another could only be applied touch spells then the whole spell falls apart.

Also I don't know the exact wording of Born of Three Thunders, because if it says it changes the energy type to [electrical][sonic] then it removes the [cold] descriptor and that flash freeze thingy falls off and no damage is dealt.

Born of three Thunders doesn't change the descriptors of the spell, so that's not an issue. Energy Substitution (electricity) does remove the [cold] descriptor though.

This seems like a problem. It depends on how stacking metamagics works out. I hope someone else can address this, because I really want the bomb to work!

It may work out that the requirements only care at the time of applying the feat and continue to grant the benefits.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-15, 08:58 AM
anymore than maximize spell sets the d6 roll to 6 before empower multiplies the damage by 1.5.


Empower and maximize are exceptions. THey specifically say so.

KoDT69
2008-02-15, 09:16 AM
If that is the case then Energy Substitution will work, and Admixture is not required, because it changes the [cold] to [sonic] after the previous metamagic has checked for [cold] to do damage... and that sounds super munchkin'ny. What I believe is that all metamagic feats must be applicable after all metamagic feats are applied. So if one feat changes the spell in a way that violates a previous feat, then the whole thing collapses. Like, if one feat changed a spell to a short range, but another could only be applied touch spells then the whole spell falls apart.

Also I don't know the exact wording of Born of Three Thunders, because if it says it changes the energy type to [electrical][sonic] then it removes the [cold] descriptor and that flash freeze thingy falls off and no damage is dealt.

It doesn't work that way. Energy Substitution changes it from [cold] to [sonic] which would disqualify the combo... So as I stated before, use Energy admixture and the spell ADDS sonic damage and the [sonic] descriptor making it [cold][sonic]. Born of Three Thunders changes the [sonic] portion only making it into [sonic][electricity] so the total spell has 3 energy descriptors.

I don't see a hard fast rule on stacking metamagics, but I see it this way:

A spell takes a standard action (the greater part of 6 seconds) and starting the spell includes saying the words, making the gestures, and applying metamagics all at the same time to make one uniform spell effect on spell completion. The feats being used all together maintain the prerequisites for all other feats during this process. Admixture adds to the cold leaving Snowcasting valid. BoTT adds the Reflex Save keeping Explosive Spell valid, etc.

When you make chocolate chip cookies, you don't bake the flour, then add eggs and bake again, try to turn that stuff into dough and bake again, then drop the chips on and bake AGAIN. To get a good cookie you mix all of the ingedients together, then bake the final mix. Same concept. You don't cast the base spell, then audit the effect with metamagic, audit again, audit again... You apply everything at one time to make a single modified result or effect. Sure you might have to do them in a certain order, but the preparation takes time before the big finish in both cases.

FireSpark
2008-02-15, 09:30 AM
Okay, I know I only skimmed through the first three pages, but I'm ready to sound off on this subject:

Won't work.

Fuzzy Juan already touched on it, but the issue here is that along the line someone glaze dover one key point. All the damage being dealt, and the effect of an Explosive Spell, affect a spell's area of effect. Locate City has a range of 10 miles/level. Note the key difference there. A Fireball's range (Long) and area of effect (20-ft-radius burst) are not the same thing. And since Locate City doesn't have an area of effect, it doesn't actually do anything. Asides of course pointing the way to a city.

In summary: RANGE does not equal AREA.

Kioran
2008-02-15, 10:16 AM
Except, in D&D the fluff has no meaning save to give a frame of reference to make everything understandable to the reader. If it said somewhere in the Benefit section of the feat that this feat can only be applied to "spells with the [Cold] descriptor that affect an area and deal damage," then you might be right. However nowhere do the excerpts of the feats posted does it say that, so the interpenetration is valid.

Oh, the unholy separation of "fluff" and "crunch" rears it´s head again. Those two are, to a certain extent, aspects of one and the same, the game. The game is meant to be played and enjoyed as a representation of a certain background. Unless one has a universal System (GURPS, Savage Worlds etc.), both background and mechanics are mutually influental, since the system is geared towards a specific genre, the background.

"Fluff" is a derogative. It belittles the background, making it sound less important and thus easier to ignore. If something visibly violates the background, verisimilitude and probably RAI, there shouldn´t be any debate. If there´s two interpretations, one should choose the less broken one, and most importantly the one that meshes with the games world.

*headshake*

Chronicled
2008-02-15, 10:29 AM
I saw (Greater) Spell Immunity and Forcecage mentioned as ways to escape the spell's effects, but I'm surprised no-one's mentioned a Contingencied Teleport (when I cast Locate City).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-15, 11:04 AM
So say the Locate City Bomb spell "works" in a game (IMO it doesn't after reading and participating in the thread) but say I could play in a game where it would it would be a neat spell to have.

Theoretically with the right feats and class specials using Arcane Thesis (negative meta modifiers) the spell could be theoretically dropped down to a level one by a specialized spellcaster like a high level Halruaan Elder (feat intensive) who could then scribe it as a level 1 spell scroll.

So if a sorcerer found or acquired this level 1 spell scroll Locate City Bomb (requires a willing DM for the theoretical NPC spellcrafter to scribe the scroll) how many people would have a problem with the PC learning the Locate City Bomb spell as a level 1 "Unusual" spell as per page 54 PHB?

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-15, 12:09 PM
Okay, I know I only skimmed through the first three pages...In summary: RANGE does not equal AREA.

Please read the whole thread as well as the relevant spells/feats before trying to punch non-existant holes in the theory. I believe Chronos mentioned that Locate City should have a range not an area, yes. But it in fact has both.

The current issue seems to be whether or not the spell will work when it's changed away from a [cold] spell, which flash frost requires.


It doesn't work that way. Energy Substitution changes it from [cold] to [sonic] which would disqualify the combo... So as I stated before, use Energy admixture and the spell ADDS sonic damage and the [sonic] descriptor making it [cold][sonic]. Born of Three Thunders changes the [sonic] portion only making it into [sonic][electricity] so the total spell has 3 energy descriptors.

Just to be clear, we're using Energy Substitution [electricity] since it isn't clear whether [sonic] is a valid choice. I think your solution will work, but the spell level is going to be much higher, which is a shame.

For those who need a recap (Thanks to PirateMonk):

1. Locate City, a 1st-level spell (Races of Destiny) has an AREA that is very large (10 miles per level radius circle) and is centered on the caster.

2. Apply the Snowcasting feat (Frostburn), which adds the [cold] desriptor to the spell.

3. Apply the Flash Frost feat (PHBII), which causes a [cold] spell to do 2 cold damage to everything in the area. (Whether or not we can do this to a non-damaging spell has already been addressed)

4. Apply the Energy Substitution [electricity] feat (Complete Arcane), which replaces the spell's [cold] descriptor with [electricity].

5. Apply the Born of Three Thunders feat (Complete Arcane) to make half the spell's damage electric and the other half sonic. The important bit of this is not the damage type, but the fact that this particular feat forces those hit by the spell to make a fort save or be deafened and a reflex save or be knocked prone. Whether or not they make the Fortitude save is irrelevant. What is important here is that the spell now allows a reflex save which makes it a candidate for...

6. Apply the Explosive Spell feat (Complete Arcane), which causes those who fail a spell's reflex save to be ejected to the nearest edge of that area, causing 1d6 damage per 10 feet moved.


KoTD's suggestion (with a small edit regarding sonic):

1. Locate City

2. Snowcasting, making it [cold]

3. Flash Frost, making it deal 2 damage (+1)

4. Energy Admixture, making it [cold][electricity] and making it deal twice as much damage to boot. (+3)

5. Born of Three Thunders, making it [sonic][cold][electricity] and forcing a reflex save to allow...

6. Explosive Spell (+2)

With Arcane Thesis: 3rd-level spell slot
Without: 7th-level spell slot

Personally, I'd Heighten Spell it to make the save a little more threatening, but this looks fine.

Interestingly enough, this spell is not best used on a city, where barriers will keep those failing saves from going very far and thus prevent them from taking ridiculous amounts of damage. It is useful for dispersing large armies, however.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-15, 12:19 PM
Sorry about the double-post.

if a sorcerer found or acquired this level 1 spell scroll Locate City Bomb ... how many people would have a problem with the PC learning the Locate City Bomb spell as a level 1 "Unusual" spell as per page 54 PHB?

You can't apply metamagic feats when writing a spell onto a scroll or apply a metamagic feat when reading a scroll. Metamagics apply only to spells cast by the person with the metamagic feat.

From the SRD:
The modifications made by these feats only apply to spells cast directly by the feat user. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm)

From the SRD:
With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

WHAAAAT?

Well, apparently I've been wrong about that for a long time. Mike, there's another thread discussing whether you learn the 'metamagicked' version of the spell from a 'metamagicked' scroll or whether you get the base spell.

I'm pretty sure you just get the base spell, but they may have more to say in that other thread. The main reason I think this is because otherwise everyone would have heavily-metamagicked versions of all their spells that are memorized in the usual spell-slots. IE: Why cast fireball when I can cast a fireball I learned from a specialist mage that has X feats applied to it but is still a level-3 spell?

KoDT69
2008-02-15, 12:40 PM
Just to be clear, we're using Energy Substitution [electricity] since it isn't clear whether [sonic] is a valid choice.

Please read the relevant spells/feats as well as the thread before contributing so we can avoid addressing the same issues over and over. The current issue seems to be whether or not Flash Frost is going to work after one applies the Energy Substitution. I like your cookie analogy though.

No that's wrong dude. Energy Admixture adds a [sonic] descriptor and damage to the snowcasted-flashfrosted-locate city chain. Energy substitution would change from cold to sonic and disqualify it for flash frost, so it has to be Energy Admixture. And BoTT does work exactly as I said so many times before. It edits the [sonic] descriptor only, which has no effect on the [cold] descriptor.


Born Of The Three Thunders
Type: Metamagic
Source: Complete Arcane

You have learned to marry the power of lightning and thunder in your electricity and sonic spells.

Prerequisite: Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks, Energy Substitution (electricity).
Benefit: When you cast a spell with either the electricity descriptor or the sonic descriptor that deals hit point damage, you can declare that spell to be a spell of the three thunders, with half its damage dealt as electricity damage and half dealt as sonic damage. In addition, the spell concludes with a mighty thunderclap that stuns all creatures that take damage from the spell for I round unless they succeed on a Fortitude save, then knocks stunned creatures prone unless they succeed on a Reflex save (both saves at the same DC as the base spell). Channeling the three thunders is costly, though, and you are automatically dazed for 1 round after doing so.
A three thunders spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. In addition, its descriptor changes to include both energy types - for example, a lightning bolt of the three thunders is an evocation [electricity, sonic] spell.

Emphasis mine. It says it adds the extra descriptor right in the Benefit section. Sorry dude, just had to correct that again. People keep forgetting that each feat is getting validated as we go. I'd like to see this break down and not work, but I'm being fair to the other side too. I'd love to disprove a lot of stuff like this but that's for another thread (candle of invocation is going down).

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-15, 12:53 PM
*points out how wrong IrreverentFool is*

Sorry about that. I caught on right after posting, but the site's sluggish nature kept me from editing until just now. My only real issue with what you were saying was that you said we were using Energy Substitution [sonic] when we were using [electricity] since there have been huge arguments in the past as to whether sonic is a valid choice for the feat. It's not relevant to your argument though, because the problem is the same either way.

Energy Admixture works fine to fix the problem.

KoDT69
2008-02-15, 01:04 PM
Oh yeah, you can just Admixture in Electricity. Either way, 2 choices for BoTT so it's good. I did notice that BoTT requires the feat Energy Substitution (Electricity) which is odd. I would say Substitution or Admixture would be roughly the same to qualify, but by RAW, we now need a 10th level Wizard instead of 9th to cover that extra feat. Still though...

And CASTLEMIKE, I would not have a problem letting the 1st level Wizard find a scroll like this to learn the spell. First point, he's 1st level! The range is the minimum, plus the fact that he has severely limited options of protecting himself. A couple d6's could put him down for good, and if not, the commoners would just sick their housecats on the lowly Wizard. I don't have an issue allowing mega-cheese like this as long as it works by RAW, but the consequences on the PC is deterrant enough that I don't have to worry about it. Why impose a limitation on my players when I don't have to? They limit themselves :smallbiggrin:

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-15, 01:36 PM
Actually, you need to have Energy Substitution to learn Energy Admixture as well. Specifically, you have to have Energy Substitution matching the energy type you want to use Admixture for. This is going to make this trick require a higher-level caster.

Feat selection for a human wizard attempting this:

Bonus feats in bold
1 - Snowcasting (-1)
1 - Flash Frost (+1) (+0)
3 - Energy Substitution [electricity]
5 - Born of the Three Thunders (-1)
6 - Explosive Spell (+2) (+1)
9 - Arcane Thesis - Locate City
10 - Energy Admixture [electricity] (+3) (+2)

So a 10th-level human wizard will be able to cast this as a 1st-level spell 2nd-level spell (if Arcane Thesis allows individual metamagics to be reduced below 0. If not, it'll be a 4th-level spell slot.) You'll have to be 14th-level in order to cast the bomb without Arcane Thesis because it's going to take up a 7th-level spell slot.

Let's not forget that Arcane Thesis has the added bonus of tacking +2 to your caster level onto the chosen spell, which means we're adding an extra 20 miles to the radius. And of course note that we're not applying Energy Substitution, it's only there as a prereq to Energy Admixture.

Edit: I accidentally applied Energy Substitution. We're not actually applying that to the spell any more, so it ends up taking a 2nd-level slot with Arcane Thesis cheese.

MrScary
2008-02-15, 04:52 PM
i think meandm had a valid point that people are overlooking and not discussing because there is no way to disprove what he has said.

logically, a spell that deals 0 damage cannot be augmented to deal additional damage

it deals 0 damage to begin with because it's a non-offensive spell

it flies completely in the face of all logic that any spell (effectively, if all the supporters had their way) can be changed to deal damage

that not only breaks the spirit of the spell, but breaks the rules of spellcasting as well

otherwise, you could have a 'bless bomb'

bless
-snowcasting
-flash freeze
---etc. etc ad nauseum

it is utter foolishness to try and argue the merits of this kind of 'offensive' spell

i suppose, though, that in essence is an 'offensive' spell...offensive to people who subscribe to logic, reason, and playing within the spirit and rules of the game and who do not attempt to power/meta game by twisting every nuance of the written word to suit their goals

Chronos
2008-02-15, 05:05 PM
And CASTLEMIKE, I would not have a problem letting the 1st level Wizard find a scroll like this to learn the spell. First point, he's 1st level! The range is the minimum, plus the fact that he has severely limited options of protecting himself.So you have no problems with letting a 1st-level character kill everything within 10 miles, in return for taking four points of damage himself?

I'm glad I don't play in any of your games.

Rift_Wolf
2008-02-15, 05:46 PM
Am I completely insane for wanting to add a version of this spell cheese into a home brew under the heading 'Supervillain forbidden knowledge'?
I thought it'd be cool to have someone be able to demolish entire islands and no-one be entirely sure how they did it (Your spellcraft tells you it was a strong divination spell)
Obviously, only one person would know how it was done, and the secret would die with him.

Phae Nymna
2008-02-15, 06:23 PM
Crazy. REALLY crazy.

WrstDmEvr
2008-02-15, 06:25 PM
Actually, I think that this does work, regardless that Locate City doesn't deal damage. Take Born of Three Thunders. It specifies that the spell must deal hit point damage to apply the feat. We can now assume Flash Frost must have a restriction that specifically says the spell must deal hit point damage. It does not.

KoDT69
2008-02-15, 10:21 PM
So you have no problems with letting a 1st-level character kill everything within 10 miles, in return for taking four points of damage himself?

I'm glad I don't play in any of your games.

Well first off, I don't have a problem with it. Due to the nature of the combo if the scroll existed at all, it would be because I put it there myself, for plot reasons. It's not like that can come up in random loot rolled from the DMG. That would also depend on the particular game style we're playing. As I said, even if a player built a Wizard character for this combo, that would be fine too. The given feat selection turn the almighty Batman into a One-Trick Pony. And the commoners will only take being blown up in a negative way. Yes I will let my players do as they please, but the NPC's are always capable of using superior tactics. Given my openness to all published content, I doubt my players would ever try to do stuff like this. I'm just saying that it's a game and all about fun. The best player I have right now at optomization is a big fan of Monks and Rangers, and it's not even Giacomo!

As for if you would play in my games is a choice. I always manage a semi-serious plotline with a nice mix of challenges both lethal and comic at times. I put a group of 6 PC's from level 10-14 up against The Super Mario Brothers one night. Psionic Warriors dressed in red and green overalls that were a Fire Giant and a Storm Giant. It was pretty fun. They entered combat with a mighty charge and massive leap, targetting PC's at random. Weighing in at 7,000 and 12,000 lbs it was funny but lethal.

On the same note, the next encounter was in a dungeon setting (maybe a 30x40ft room with a 30ft height. I put that high level group against 5 goblins each only 6th level. 2 Rogues, 2 Barbarian Frenzied Berserker uberchargers, and a Sorcerer. The Rogues were up the wall hidden over the tunnel coming in, and a Grease spell was dropped right inside (unknown to the charging players). The Sorcerer got the party Barbarian with a max rolled Ray of Enfeeblement in the opening round and the Rogues both sneak-attacked diving from 20ft, and both rolled crits! A few cheap alchemical items, awesome rolls, and terraine advantages later, the party finally killed the 4 melee goblins while the Sorcerer escaped. That was the optimization type challenge. I never get complaints either way.

FlyMolo
2008-02-15, 10:55 PM
[snip]
Interestingly enough, this spell is not best used on a city, where barriers will keep those failing saves from going very far and thus prevent them from taking ridiculous amounts of damage. It is useful for dispersing large armies, however.

Actually, that's interesting. Bullrush rules say take 1d6 per 10 feet you would have traveled. Seems reasonable for calculating the damage people stopped by structures would have taken. BUT, on the other hand, explosive spell says 1d6 per 10 feet traveled. Makes you wonder which one applies here. Perhaps both, thereby making sure you take however many d6 damage you would have taken anyway. 12*5280 d6, assuming our minimum level caster outlined above, and that you're at the epicenter.

Chronos
2008-02-16, 12:55 AM
Makes you wonder which one applies here.What metamagic feat are you applying to get Bull Rush? The Bull Rush rules apply to Bull Rush, and the Explosive Spell rules apply to Explosive Spell.

Aquillion
2008-02-16, 12:59 AM
And CASTLEMIKE, I would not have a problem letting the 1st level Wizard find a scroll like this to learn the spell.A better explaination for why you can't learn a metamagicked spell (although you might be able to scribe it):

To learn a spell, it must be on your class list. Not just 'a spell of the same name', or a 'very similar spell', but that exact spell, with that exact effect. For instance, the Magic Missile that wizards have on their class list is first level and does 1d4+1 damage per bolt; a magic missile that is higher level and does 5 damage per bolt cannot be learned.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-16, 07:17 AM
A better explaination for why you can't learn a metamagicked spell (although you might be able to scribe it):

To learn a spell, it must be on your class list. Not just 'a spell of the same name', or a 'very similar spell', but that exact spell, with that exact effect. For instance, the Magic Missile that wizards have on their class list is first level and does 1d4+1 damage per bolt; a magic missile that is higher level and does 5 damage per bolt cannot be learned.


I disagree as per learning "Unusual" spells from a scroll page 54 PHB in the middle of the Spells: text which makes it DM dependent. Going to be travelling for a few days.

Keld Denar
2008-02-16, 11:40 AM
AHA!

So....Make your wizard a Spellscale (Races of the Dragon)
In the morning, perform the ritual of Bahamut (or Tiamat)
Benefits.....choose a creature in the area of a spell you cast that is evil (or good). That creature takes 2d6 damage in addition to the spells normal effects or damage.

So, now Locate City does damage, which gets around the arguement that Flash Frost can only be applied to spells that do damage. Since you can now apply Flash Frost (and FF would affect all creatures in the area, not just the evil (or good) creature) you can apply Energy Admixture (electricity) and BoTT and Explosive Spell.

Just gotta make sure that there is at least 1 evil (or good) creature within 10 miles per spell level....shouldn't be that hard.

KoDT69
2008-02-16, 12:43 PM
To learn a spell, it must be on your class list. Not just 'a spell of the same name', or a 'very similar spell', but that exact spell, with that exact effect. For instance, the Magic Missile that wizards have on their class list is first level and does 1d4+1 damage per bolt; a magic missile that is higher level and does 5 damage per bolt cannot be learned.

Sure, I checked by RAW every class does have a Spell List. I was under the impression that Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer just had access to any divine/arcane spell, most likely because I never looked into it that closely. I'm liberal with spell access as long as it's not abused. It's about fun for my group, not WotC RAW.

So we have a RAW exclusion on learning it from a Scroll. Either way, if it is in any campaign, it's because the DM put it there. Like I said, I would allow it because I don't have players that abuse things like that. It would only be in a non-serious evil based campaign anyway.

Oh and good call lussmanj! See there's always more than one way to smite a troglodyte!

deathbyhokie
2008-02-16, 02:12 PM
AHA!

So....Make your wizard a Spellscale (Races of the Dragon)
In the morning, perform the ritual of Bahamut (or Tiamat)
Benefits.....choose a creature in the area of a spell you cast that is evil (or good). That creature takes 2d6 damage in addition to the spells normal effects or damage.

So, now Locate City does damage, which gets around the arguement that Flash Frost can only be applied to spells that do damage. Since you can now apply Flash Frost (and FF would affect all creatures in the area, not just the evil (or good) creature) you can apply Energy Admixture (electricity) and BoTT and Explosive Spell.

Just gotta make sure that there is at least 1 evil (or good) creature within 10 miles per spell level....shouldn't be that hard.

The only problem is Three Thunders only forces a save for those that take damage. And explosive spell only ejects those who fail the save.

So this route just turns it into a complicated, highly amusing Save or Die spell.

WrstDmEvr
2008-02-16, 02:43 PM
The only problem is Three Thunders only forces a save for those that take damage. And explosive spell only ejects those who fail the save.

So this route just turns it into a complicated, highly amusing Save or Die spell.

No, Flash Frost deals 2 damage to everything in the area. Everything must make a save: Everybody who fails gets booted.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-16, 02:50 PM
The only problem is Three Thunders only forces a save for those that take damage. And explosive spell only ejects those who fail the save.

So this route just turns it into a complicated, highly amusing Save or Die spell.

... that affects everyone in a CL x 10 +20 mile radius.

@MrScary:
So you're saying that logically 0+2 does not = 2? 'Additional' can't apply to a value of 0?

Also, a 'bless' bomb would work, too. But bless only has an area of a 50' burst. Locate city has an area of miles.

Beren One-Hand
2008-02-16, 03:04 PM
@MrScary:
So you're saying that logically 0+2 does not = 2? 'Additional' can't apply to a value of 0?

Also, a 'bless' bomb would work, too. But bless only has an area of a 50' burst. Locate city has an area of miles.

It's a semantics issue. The phrases "an additional" and "an extra" have the connotation of only applying to something that is already present. Like you wouldn't say "I went to the bank branch in that supermarket and withdrew twenty dollars, and since I was hungry I withdrew an additional apple."

In mathmatics the prase "additional" can be applied to zero, but often times in English it can't be applied. The problem comes when you are using English to describe mathmatic terms... which is basically what the so-called "crunch" of DnD is.

deathbyhokie
2008-02-16, 03:14 PM
No, Flash Frost deals 2 damage to everything in the area. Everything must make a save: Everybody who fails gets booted.

I missed the part where he applies Flash Frost. That's what I get for skimming.

Ninjalitude
2008-02-16, 03:37 PM
5280 d6 PER LEVEL. At least 8 or so, cuz it's a 4th level spell.

The only thing I've seen that's more powerful than this is the Anti-Osmium bomb.



I think your wrong, its the same kind of cheese but the anti osmium nuke goes 1/3 of the way To The SUN with no save. So i think, while this is still a large amount of cheese, comparing this to the anti osmium nuke is like comparing a blowgun-dart to a greatsword. :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-16, 03:44 PM
I think your wrong, its the same kind of cheese but the anti osmium nuke goes 1/3 of the way To The SUN with no save. So i think, while this is still a large amount of cheese, comparing this to the anti osmium nuke is like comparing a blowgun-dart to a greatsword. :smallamused:Actually, because it was explosive, the anti-osmium did allow a reflex save for half. Granted, the blast would destroy the world so all of those monks and rogues would be left floating in space, but it did allow a save.

Aquillion
2008-02-16, 04:23 PM
No, Flash Frost deals 2 damage to everything in the area. Everything must make a save: Everybody who fails gets booted.No, two saves, and passing either will save you. Anyone damaged by Flash Frost (which is everyone without some sort of resistance or special protection, since the 2 damage has no save) first makes a fort save to avoid being stunned, then (if they are stunned by this) a ref save to avoid being thrown prone. If they fail the ref save, that triggers the conditions for Explosive Spell to throw them to their death. Remember, it's a level 1 spell, and only has the saves of a level 1 spell... there's going to be a lot of people making their saves. Actually... let's say we have the lowest-level wizard possible to use this trick, so the save is, what, DC 15? DC 16? Maybe a bit higher with int-raising items and DC-increasing abilities? Still, anyone and anything with class levels and stats that raise either ref or fort saves is probably going to survive, and even commoners will save on a 20 (and probably better.)

Note that about half the level 1 commoners out there will be killed by the initial two damage anyway (you don't get a save against that), as will a large amount of small, tiny, and fine wildlife. If you wanted, you could use Energy Admixture and Searing spell to raise this to 4 damage... there's another metamagic feat that increases damage to 150% against living targets, so you could do 6 total. Doesn't sound like much, but remember, something like 80% of the world is level 1 commoners, so this would probably actually be better at depopulating a city than the Locate City Bomb itself. (Since even commoners have decent chance of saving against a level 1 spell.)

Zeful
2008-02-16, 05:52 PM
Oh, the unholy separation of "fluff" and "crunch" rears it´s head again. Those two are, to a certain extent, aspects of one and the same, the game. The game is meant to be played and enjoyed as a representation of a certain background. Unless one has a universal System (GURPS, Savage Worlds etc.), both background and mechanics are mutually influental, since the system is geared towards a specific genre, the background.

"Fluff" is a derogative. It belittles the background, making it sound less important and thus easier to ignore. If something visibly violates the background, verisimilitude and probably RAI, there shouldn´t be any debate. If there´s two interpretations, one should choose the less broken one, and most importantly the one that meshes with the games world.

*headshake*

Except when the creator of the game (WoTC) removes the background or layman's explanation than the explanation must not be part of the mechanics. As such the line "Uses cold and ice to damage your opponents etc." can be removed because it doesn't actually have any bearing on the mechanical action.

Now another thing to look at the layman's description does not preclude the use of it on non-damaging spells because "uses cold and ice to damage..." implies that the feat uses what ever cold a spell produces to deal damage even if it doesn't do damage normally. So the Snowcasting/Flash Frost combo works.

WrstDmEvr
2008-02-16, 10:21 PM
No, two saves, and passing either will save you.

[snip]



The example given in the description of a fireball says,


All creatures... that fail their saves not only take full damage but are pushed to the closest square outside the perimeter of the spell's radius

If there was a second save, it would say something along the lines of whatever creature(s) fails the second save gets pushed to the closest square outside the range of the spell.

Aquillion
2008-02-16, 10:55 PM
If there was a second save, it would say something along the lines of whatever creature(s) fails the second save gets pushed to the closest square outside the range of the spell.That's not where the second save comes from; it's Born of the Three Thunders that calls for two saves, not Explosive Spell.

Explosive Spell, while it doesn't require a save itself, will triggers when you fail a reflex save against the spell it's attached to. And Born of Three Thunders says that anyone damaged by the spell first rolls a fort save against stunning; then, if (and only if) they fail that fort save and are stunned, they roll a reflex save to avoid being prone:


EXPLOSIVE SPELL - A spell that has a Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Burst that allows a Reflex save will now push any creature that fails its Reflex save out of the area of effect.

If they make the fort save, they never have to roll the reflex save; and if they fail the fort save but make the reflex save, Explosive spell doesn't trigger. Hence, two saves, and passing either will save you (although, granted, if you fail the fort save and pass the reflex save you'll still be stunned.) Technically, I guess, you only roll one save if you pass the fort save, but the overall effect is the same... for the Locate City Bomb to work on someone, they have to fail two saves against a level 1 spell in a row, one fort, one reflex. And they have to be vulnerable to stunning, and they can't be immune to both lightning and sonic. It isn't particularly useful against high-level creatures unless you spam it over and over until they fail both saves (which, granted, you can do from safely outside the range of just about anything.) And a lot of broad classes of opponents are immune to stunning, too.

Hey... I have a question. Assuming it works, what happens if the Snowcasting/Flash Frost combo is used on a spell with a duration? What happens if I use it with Haste or Alarm or Zone of Truth or whatever?

Yami
2008-02-16, 11:10 PM
You create a pulsing energy shield that your players must slog through, making saves every round to aviod being stunned and thrown out of the room with whatever important artifact you are protecting.

Edit: Now that would be something to permanacy.

Aquillion
2008-02-16, 11:16 PM
You create a pulsing energy shield that your players must slog through, making saves every round to aviod being stunned and thrown out of the room with whatever important artifact you are protecting.

Edit: Now that would be something to permanacy.I wasn't even really talking about adding in Energy Admixture and Born of the Three Thunders and all that (although it was what first got me thinking about it -- Aerial Alarm has a respectable 100-ft.-radius cylinder, 500 ft. high, which lasts for 2 hours/level).

But what about, say, Snowcasting + Flash Frost + Sending? Can you send a message that does 2 ice damage? That seems a little silly.

D Knight
2008-02-17, 12:37 AM
hey i had this thought and was wondering if it would work for locate city bomb. if you take archmage and use its abilty to shape spells would that qualify it for the feat Explosive Spell. if not than why would it not work.

Aquillion
2008-02-17, 01:47 AM
Nah. The archmage ability, while awesome, just lets you cut out parts of the spell's area. This doesn't change a radius to a cylinder, say...

Well, hrm, maybe you could argue that if you cut it into the shape of a cylinder, it's a cylinder.

Come to think of it, it definitely isn't a Burst. Burst spells don't affect things with total cover from the point of emination, while locate city does. And it obviously isn't a cone or line. So if you want to argue that it fits already, you'd have to argue it's already a cylinder... which seems unlikely.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-17, 05:29 PM
Nah. The archmage ability, while awesome, just lets you cut out parts of the spell's area. This doesn't change a radius to a cylinder, say...

Well, hrm, maybe you could argue that if you cut it into the shape of a cylinder, it's a cylinder.

Come to think of it, it definitely isn't a Burst. Burst spells don't affect things with total cover from the point of emination, while locate city does. And it obviously isn't a cone or line. So if you want to argue that it fits already, you'd have to argue it's already a cylinder... which seems unlikely.

It's a circle. Says right in the spell's 'area'. It's not a sphere, cylinder, burst, etc..

A circle is a 2-dimensional figure, which means that it's not throwing anyone anywhere except to just outside that flat plane. Darn.

On another interesting note, there's the 'Spellslinging Commander' commander aura in Heroes of Battle which says that all area spells cast by allies within 30 feet of you do an extra 1d6 points of damage.

I think I'll just get a contingent of NPC spellcasters and have them cast Locate City for me.

FlyMolo
2008-02-17, 05:34 PM
It's a circle. Says right in the spell's 'area'. It's not a sphere, cylinder, burst, etc..

A circle is a 2-dimensional figure, which means that it's not throwing anyone anywhere except to just outside that flat plane. Darn.

On another interesting note, there's the 'Spellslinging Commander' commander aura in Heroes of Battle which says that all area spells cast by allies within 30 feet of you do an extra 1d6 points of damage.

I think I'll just get a contingent of NPC spellcasters and have them cast Locate City for me.

Remember to get snowcasting+flash frost for all of them. I haven't read spellslinging commander, but there might be a clause that the spell has to deal damage before you can commanderize it.

KoDT69
2008-02-17, 09:55 PM
I don't think that any spell being monkeyed with to qualify that has a duration will pulse the damage like that. Flash Frost adds 2 cold damage at the time of casting. It does not say that it deals 2 damage per round, just that it does 2 points. You can ask for a RAW backing of that, but in all seriousness in this silly scenario, we were obviously not intended to use it that way and will not get a RAW clarification in any of the books currently in print. Common sense tells me 2 damage is just that, 2 damage on spell resolution. On that note, you could always create a custom item of unlimited use-activated <insert large area of effect spell><modify with whatever metamagics> item and just activate it every round while concealed somehow.

As for that one with a circle instead for a sphere, it could possibly qualify depending on the DM's view. I would think it qualifies, but would be pointless. Since it is 2-D, the shortest route out is straight up about 1/16th of an inch which is pointless. :smallsigh: Oh well, I'm still interested in any other mass destruction ideas. My campaign's group is currently all 9th level, and they are taking on a slave-trading band of cultists. You know, your basic cookie-cutter "they're obviously evil so it's OK to slaughter them" type of opponents. They need any tricks they can get, because the evil 0 level commoners keep living long enough to call for help to the real threats :smallbiggrin:

Aquillion
2008-02-17, 10:28 PM
I don't think that any spell being monkeyed with to qualify that has a duration will pulse the damage like that. Flash Frost adds 2 cold damage at the time of casting. It does not say that it deals 2 damage per round, just that it does 2 points. You can ask for a RAW backing of that, but in all seriousness in this silly scenario, we were obviously not intended to use it that way and will not get a RAW clarification in any of the books currently in print. Common sense tells me 2 damage is just that, 2 damage on spell resolution. On that note, you could always create a custom item of unlimited use-activated <insert large area of effect spell><modify with whatever metamagics> item and just activate it every round while concealed somehow.Ok. What if you apply Flash Frost to a cold spell that already does damage/round? I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work, and I can't see anything in the description that would give a valid reason for it not to add damage every single time the metamagicked spell deals damage.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-17, 11:34 PM
Ok. What if you apply Flash Frost to a cold spell that already does damage/round? I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work, and I can't see anything in the description that would give a valid reason for it not to add damage every single time the metamagicked spell deals damage.

There is something in the description that is a valid reason for it not to add damage every single time the spell does damage. It says it does 'an additional 2 points of cold damage'. If it did this extra damage every round, that would add up to more than 2, wouldn't it? While I'm all for making it work this way, there's no way you can make 'an additional 2 points of damage' into any more than 2. 2=2.


Remember to get snowcasting+flash frost for all of them. I haven't read spellslinging commander, but there might be a clause that the spell has to deal damage before you can commanderize it.

It looks like you're right. I guess I'll be making simularca for awhile then.

"Any area spell cast by an ally within 30 feet of you deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. Only spells that deal damage gain this bonus. This benefit is considered a morale bonus."

KoDT69
2008-02-18, 09:11 AM
Who else can see a group of like 15 Sorcerers with that Spellslinging Commander feat making a custom spell resembling fireball but 1st level, limited to 5d6 damage, and using various energy types? 20d6 without metamagics! Use the Spell Point variant and you got some major firepower. Even blasters can be viable again! You could really cheese it up by getting about 60 casters, shoulder to shoulder and some kneeling down to keep line of sight. 65d6 for a 1st level spell is kinda hard to beat without multi-class/feat combos. I think I deserve a cookie :smallbiggrin:

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-18, 12:20 PM
It looks like you're right. I guess I'll be making simularca for awhile then.

"Any area spell cast by an ally within 30 feet of you deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. Only spells that deal damage gain this bonus. This benefit is considered a morale bonus."

Hmm. Half your HD. You could try Body Outside Body, but if memory serves, that one doesn't get your spells. :smallfrown: Maybe the Psionic equivalent of BOB.

JosephHeller
2008-03-01, 01:05 PM
I've seen this done with appocalypse from the sky, which has the same radius, but does 10d6 damage to everyone. So it does damage base, which means that it can wipe out buildings on top of everything else. There was also a way to prevent the square the caster was in from being hit, so everything in a 200 mile radius around you is toast, but you're fine. Of course, people looked at it and realized it could also dig a crater about 3 miles deep, so that little piller you're standing on won't be standing for long...

Cleric with the Apocalypse(?) Domain (BoVD) (Apocalypse From The Sky) + Divine Metamagic + Fell Ascension + Hide From Undead = 20-mile radius of free-roaming undead. Use a Horn of Building (or whatever it's called), and you have a palace inside a wastleland of undead. Bring a Darkskull.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-01, 01:07 PM
Why would you use Necromancy? Necromancy is evil.

Decoy Lockbox
2008-03-04, 02:44 AM
A friend of mine turned me on to another great way to deal massive damage with loopy combos in D&D -- rat bagging.

Take the feat destructive retribution from Libris mortis, which causes a small explosion whenever an undead you animate or create is destroyed - 1d6 of negative energy damage to everything in a 10 foot spread, with a DC 15 reflex save for half. Get a bunch of dead rats (1/4 HD per rat), animate them with animate dead, put them all in a sack and then drop them from a decent height (enough to ensure that the falling damage kills them). Everything that is in the blast radius is going to be taking serious damage. The lowest level you can do this is 5th (animate dead is a lvl 3 cleric spell), giving you 10 hit dice of rat, 40 rats in total. This in turn becomes 40d6 of negative energy damage when the bag detonates. Every caster level after that will add 8d6 more to the damage total, giving a level 20 caster a massive 160d6 nuke for the low cost of a level 3 spell and 4,000 hp material component (25 gp per hit die animated). Or you could just do it with a warlock for free, provided you detonate the bag in 1 minute per caster level after the spell is cast :smallbiggrin:

Roderick_BR
2008-03-04, 07:17 AM
And Rangers. Everybody always forgets they get Evasion, probably because you can't dip for it.
Even Belkar himself forgot that... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html

FelixZ
2008-06-25, 07:59 AM
Not to necro a thread, but... Any way to do this with psionics? I know over ath the WotC boards we came up with a way to create a fusion bomb using both psionics and arcane magic.

Ninjalitude
2008-06-25, 09:55 AM
except rouges and monks who have evasion and do really well on their reflex saves!

even those would be lucky not to die when the bodies start falling :smallamused:

Vexxation
2008-06-25, 02:51 PM
Hm..

I have an idea. Assuming that you, like I, feel that the current "accepted" setup actually works, I have two thoughts.

First: The impact of several bodies hitting one thing with the force to throw them even 1 mile would break it. But that's using physics, which I realize isn't used in D&D. Sorry, catgirls, for what I've done.

Second: Could you not, if you wanted to *really* annihilate people, set up a square around a center point, such that the center point is a wizard, and the corners of the square are wizards each centering another locate city on themselves? This would be done so that the radius of the spells overlap exactly.

See pic:http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g15/mmmoreos/squareofdeath.jpg

The white dots represent the wizards involved. As shown, no wizard is hit by more than one spell, but the same cannot be said for the victims. In this example, if all five were to fire their locate city at the same time, some people would be torn in half, others shredded by the force, and almost assuredly, everyone killed. Everyone in the main radius, that is.

Granted, this would require massive coordination, but man... if it was done, even the rogues and monks and such might not make it out.

Irreverent Fool
2008-07-25, 10:37 PM
Who else can see a group of like 15 Sorcerers with that Spellslinging Commander feat making a custom spell resembling fireball but 1st level, limited to 5d6 damage, and using various energy types? 20d6 without metamagics! Use the Spell Point variant and you got some major firepower. Even blasters can be viable again! You could really cheese it up by getting about 60 casters, shoulder to shoulder and some kneeling down to keep line of sight. 65d6 for a 1st level spell is kinda hard to beat without multi-class/feat combos. I think I deserve a cookie :smallbiggrin:

It's a morale bonus. Morale bonuses don't stack.

olelia
2008-07-25, 11:29 PM
CAT GIRL DEATH
The problem with your theory is it is D&D impossible because they wouldn't act at the same time and once one goes off that clears a majority of the pattern out so you wouldn't get the focused center. At best you would hit them twice as they fly out in the other circles from the middle.

Vexxation
2008-07-25, 11:33 PM
The problem with your theory is it is D&D impossible because they wouldn't act at the same time and once one goes off that clears a majority of the pattern out so you wouldn't get the focused center. At best you would hit them twice as they fly out in the other circles from the middle.

Aw, there's gotta be a spell or effect somewhere that lets multiple people synchronize their actions. Some sort of mind link or something.

And if there isn't, Epic Spells for the win!

Deth Muncher
2008-07-25, 11:59 PM
Aw, there's gotta be a spell or effect somewhere that lets multiple people synchronize their actions. Some sort of mind link or something.

And if there isn't, Epic Spells for the win!

There sure is! It's a feat, although I can't recall where it's from or the exact name. It's basically a ritual-cast kinda thing, where a bunch of people with that feat (come to think of it, I think it's Cooperative Spell) cast the same spell at the same time. Increases DC or something.