PDA

View Full Version : Most Broken Spells - Sound off!



Lord_Gareth
2008-02-12, 09:53 AM
This isn't some thread to make fighter players feel better or a put-down on the magic system, I actually need this information.

I'm constructing a magic system replacement in the Homebrew forum (the Paradigm Project) and I need to know what current spells are absolutely broken so that I can avoid or fix them.

So, sound off! I wanna hear YOU!

kamikasei
2008-02-12, 09:56 AM
Ye olde Shivering Touch.

Time Stop. Celerity.

(Just want to try and beat the experts to the best ones.)

Green Bean
2008-02-12, 10:00 AM
The Polymorph line has serious problems.

Funkyodor
2008-02-12, 10:01 AM
Contingency

Talic
2008-02-12, 10:03 AM
Power Word: Pain. Level 1, if the target has less than 50 hp at casting he takes 1d6 damage a round for 4d4 rounds. It'll kill anything a level 1-3 wiz would face. With a sudden maximize, that's 96 damage.

even if you have 50-75 hp, you take 1d6 a round for 2d4 rounds. (48 max damage)
76-100 is 1d4 rounds, and 101+ is no effect. (24 damage max)

Compare to Magic Missile, one of the stronger spells, because, like Power word pain, there's no attack roll, and no save. it has a max, at caster level 9, of 25 damage.

This spell does an AVERAGE of 35 damage at level 1.

Indon
2008-02-12, 10:07 AM
Most spells that deal ability damage, or do level drain (Enervate counts, though it's borderline considering its' high spell level).

Note that ability penalty (example: Ray of Enfeeblement) isn't that bad.

Solo
2008-02-12, 10:08 AM
Astral Projection.

"Oh look, free copies of my magic lwets."

Talic
2008-02-12, 10:09 AM
Most spells that deal ability damage, or do level drain (Enervate counts, though it's borderline considering its' high spell level).

Note that ability penalty (example: Ray of Enfeeblement) isn't that bad.

No, what makes those spells bad is when they're sudden maximize, sudden empowered, split ray, twin spelled. It's the feats that make neg level spells nasty.

leperkhaun
2008-02-12, 10:12 AM
ray of enfeblement. shapechange, the various polymorphs. celerity, time stop, gate


hmmm at low levels, glitterdust and sleep are pretty uber at low levels.

the dominate spells are pretty nice

Indon
2008-02-12, 10:27 AM
No, what makes those spells bad is when they're sudden maximize, sudden empowered, split ray, twin spelled. It's the feats that make neg level spells nasty.

And a proliferation of options to transform into is what make the Polymorph spells extremely breakable.

Most spells can be used in a non-broken sense. But some spells are much easier to break than others - ability damage and level drain spells are in that category.

Telonius
2008-02-12, 11:09 AM
Broken. These spells are vastly overpowered, or completely replace classes/builds.
Celerity
Timestop
Contingency
The whole Polymorph line
Righteous Might
Wind Wall
Knock
Detect Secret Doors
Detect Traps and Snares

Kind of broken. These make things much easier than they should be:
Magnificent Mansion
Rope Trick
Lesser Vigor

Right on the line. These can be terrible, when some people have access but others don't. Or, they are kind of iconic D&D, so you might not want to get rid of them:
Freedom of Movement
Black Tentacles
Fly
Glitterdust

Lord_Gareth
2008-02-12, 11:09 AM
Please ignore metamagic - I'm eliminating that ^_^

Douglas
2008-02-12, 11:29 AM
Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange (other spells in the new Polymorph subschool are fine, it's just the four core originals that are broken)
Shivering Touch

Ganurath
2008-02-12, 11:52 AM
Wall of Iron: Fly overhead, and drop it on somebody! One of the few spells worth casting after you go epic, since it's the best source of precision damage.

valadil
2008-02-12, 12:26 PM
Wraith Strike, Assay Resistance, Wings of Flurry.

Just Alex
2008-02-12, 12:40 PM
I think I may be missing something. What's so broken about Wraith Strike. It's nice when you Polymorph into a hydra or something, but on it's own, a wizard swinging his dagger isn't all that scary.

Indon
2008-02-12, 12:47 PM
Wall of Iron: Fly overhead, and drop it on somebody! One of the few spells worth casting after you go epic, since it's the best source of precision damage.

I thought you needed to conjure things onto stable surfaces?

Solo
2008-02-12, 12:48 PM
You can't cast Conjuration [Creation] spells unless you cast them on a surface capable of sustaining the conjured stuff.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-12, 01:51 PM
As Telonius said, most spells that force effects on characters that can't be overcome in anyway, even by epic level characters, or the gods themselves, without the help of some specific exact spell, has great chance of being broken.

Wind Wall: Say bybye to ranged attacks. No, the ranger40/cleric40/fighter40 avatar of Corellion can't hit you with an arrow, unless it is considered an impossible to block weapon, like a boulder or balestra's arrow.

Freedom of Movement: Blocks many many spells and special abilities. If you are a grappler, even if you spill sovereign glue on your hands, you won't be able to hold the guy.

Grease: Reflex to avoid fall, but you may be the nimbled rogue of the world, with a reflex 100. If you forgot to put points into Balance, you can't walk over it.

Rays of Exaustion: Kill 3/4 the attack modes of any creature, without chance of a save.

When a immunity is caused by an obvious effect (fly allows you to float over traps, dificult terrain, stay away from a meleer's reach), then it's alright. When it's an articial bonus (like Freedom of Movement, or Wind Wall), it's stupid to make it absolute.

As for metamagic, I'd allow it, but you need to be careful with which spells it can be used.
Energy drains type, for example, should be a static bonus, not a 1d4 something. Penalties to stats are not bad, but damage is.
Twin rays should be higher level.
Make all metamagic be "slow", like the sorcerer uses it (effectively removing only Quicken), and you can have metamagic without much problem.

Ganurath
2008-02-12, 02:04 PM
You can't cast Conjuration [Creation] spells unless you cast them on a surface capable of sustaining the conjured stuff.Actually, you only need a solid surface with sufficient area... like a blanket.

The_Snark
2008-02-12, 03:20 PM
Telonius- Did you mean Divine Power rather than Righteous Might? Because of the three basic clericzilla spells, Divine Power is by far the worst offender. Righteous Might gives static bonuses- +4 Str, +2 Con, increased damage, reach, a bit of DR and natural armor, and size penalties and bonuses. Good, but as a 5th-level spell, it's hardly totally broken. Divine Power, on the other hand, gives a cleric +5 to attack, +3 damage, and temporary HP as soon as a cleric can cast it and only ever gets better; that's the spell that really allows the cleric to replace melee classes.

Might add in Mind Blank, which renders you completely immune to all enchantments and targeted divinations, as well as a few illusion and necromancy spells... plus a lot of monster abilities.

valadil
2008-02-12, 03:29 PM
I think I may be missing something. What's so broken about Wraith Strike. It's nice when you Polymorph into a hydra or something, but on it's own, a wizard swinging his dagger isn't all that scary.

It's no biggie for a wizard, but gish or assassins with it are downright frightening.

AslanCross
2008-02-12, 05:49 PM
Avasculate. Half of your HP, gone. No save.

Cruiser1
2008-02-12, 05:59 PM
The Orb spells. No save and no spell resistance damage, and since the damage is coming from a non-magic source, they can even be tossed into an antimagic field. All this in a Conjuration spell, making Conjuration better for direct damage than Evocation in many respects.

Chronos
2008-02-12, 06:38 PM
It's worth noting that some broken spells could be very easily fixed. For instance, all of the calling spells (Planar Ally/Binding, Gate) are broken, because you can call up a creature, and make it do things that would otherwise require a higher-level spell of your own (Gating in Solars for no-XP wishes, or ordering a called creature to call other creatures). But there's already a rule in place that summoned creatures can't use any summoning abilities, and will refuse to use any spell with an XP or expensive material component, or spell-like abilities which duplicate such spells. I personally think it was a mere oversight that this rule does not also apply to calling, and in any event, it's simple enough to extend the rule. Or, maybe you might still allow spells which cost XP, but the caster who called the creature still has to pay the XP himself (in the stories, whenever someone calls up a creature to demand wishes from it, it always ends up costing the caller).

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-12, 07:17 PM
Another vote for "the Polymorph line" with a bit more specific commentary.

The problem with Polymorph (and with some summoning effects) is that it's only possible to balance it if you actually balance every single published monster for PC use. Essentially any ability a monster has, a polymorphing Wizard can get eventually (although they may need Shapechange at some point). Worse, it seriously rewards anal-retentive analysis of the Monster Manuals by players.

MeklorIlavator
2008-02-12, 07:36 PM
I would like to add in this regarding Polymorph:

The Alter self spell wouldn't be as bad if it was a couple levels higher, in my opinion. Also, the Baleful Polymorph spell is just a save or die, and though it is somewhat powerful, I would not include it among the broken category(becoming a squirrel, possible with the mind of a squirrel, just doesn't seem that threatening). finally, I believe that the new polymorph line in the PHB2 is considered decently balanced, as you may only take the form of a specific creature, and they seem to have been though out more level wise(there is a troll-form and an unicorn form, to my knowledge.)

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-12, 07:38 PM
I think I may be missing something. What's so broken about Wraith Strike. It's nice when you Polymorph into a hydra or something, but on it's own, a wizard swinging his dagger isn't all that scary.

Because those wizards who use that spell don't use their dagger. Polymorph, as you've mentioned, is but one of many arsenals a wizard can employ. There are many classes that progress spellcasting and full BAB (Abjurant Champion, for example) which enables the 'Gish' build, a build in which the said spell demonstrate its full potential especially if Power Attack feat is used (obtained through Heroics spell or just as a normal feat etc).

shadowdemon_lord
2008-02-12, 07:45 PM
I'm surprised the rope trick/mages mansion line hasn't gotten mentioned more here. Free rests in the middle of anywhere is pretty damn broken.

Squash Monster
2008-02-12, 08:00 PM
Broken: spells that destroy basic assumptions about the game
Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, ect - destroys the primary balancing factor of casters. Fix: remove.
Teleport, Dimension Door, ect - same as Rope Trick, plus you can skip challenges. Fix: remove, replace with shorter range ones, promote spells like Baleful Transposition
Fly, Overland Flight, ect - allows casters to ignore melee characters. Fix: raise level of such spells, encourage spells like Swift Flight (swift action Fly that gives 60' fly speed for one round)
Scry - auto-ambush. Fix: lower accuracy and raise difficulty
Locate Object - destroys many quests. Fix: raise level substantially


Hideously Unbalanced:spells that completely negate an entire class of characters or challenges
Polymorph, Shapechange, ect - allows Wizards to fight better than the people who dedicate themselves to fighting. Fix: make specific forms require specific spells, and balance forms with intelligently chosen spell level.
Divine Power - allows Clerics to fight better than the people who dedicate themselves to fighting. Fix: look at sane buffs like Bull's Strength and imagine what a level 4 version might look like
Righteous Might - like Divine Power, but it stacks with nearly everything. Fix: same as Divine Power
Black Tentacles - only grapple-specialized characters can escape. Fix: remove
Speak With Dead - easy gathering of information. Fix: remove, raise level, or raise difficulty
Freedom of Movement - negates an entire class of spells, entire class of characters. Fix: short duration, possibly in a swift version
Mind Blank - negates an entire class of spells. Fix: make less of a blanket immunity


Very Unbalanced: spells that need to be toned down just a little
Silent Image - as good as Wall of Stone and similar spells - nobody actually pokes the wall to see if its there. Fix: raise level of it and similar spells
Cloud of Bewilderment, Solid Fog, Grease, Web, Entangle, and so on - battlefield control spells are amazingly good. Fix: have less of them or make them less stackable. Solid Fog is vaguely balanced; Grease is vaguely balanced. Casting both on the same area? Kills everything.
Summon Monster, Nature's Ally, Planar Ally, ect - some choices have abilities very out of sync with their level. Fix: summon lists need to be looked at carefully.


Suspiciously Strong: spells that are extremely good but might be allowable without fixes
Color Spray, Prismatic Spray - ends fights
Sleep - ends fights
Glitterdust - ends fights
Haste - insane amount of buffs



Finally: while I don't believe that save or die spells are unbalanced, I do believe they are unfun. What I recommend is removing the save system entirely. Off the top of my head, this seems like a good fix:

Remove saves, give characters HP-like Fortitude Will, and Reflex points (equal to something like 2 + the character's score in that save). Spells that target these saves do damage to these points, and if a character reaches 0 or lower, they succumb to the spell. For a rough rule, make spells do Will or Fort damage equal to their spell level, and add a few spells with weak or no effect that do extra damage. These points recover at the rate of nonlethal damage.

Flavor-wise, losing Fortitude points is equivalent to feeling your physical defenses wear down, losing Will points is equivalent to feeling your mind cloud, and losing Reflex points is equivalent to feeling your reflexes slow.

Squash Monster
2008-02-12, 08:05 PM
Broken: spells that destroy basic assumptions about the game
Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, ect - destroys the primary balancing factor of casters. Fix: remove.
Teleport, Dimension Door, ect - same as Rope Trick, plus you can skip challenges. Fix: remove, replace with shorter range ones, promote spells like Baleful Transposition
Fly, Overland Flight, ect - allows casters to ignore melee characters. Fix: raise level of such spells, encourage spells like Swift Flight (swift action Fly that gives 60' fly speed for one round)
Scry - auto-ambush. Fix: lower accuracy and raise difficulty
Locate Object - destroys many quests. Fix: raise level substantially


Hideously Unbalanced:spells that completely negate an entire class of characters or challenges
Polymorph, Shapechange, ect - allows Wizards to fight better than the people who dedicate themselves to fighting. Fix: make specific forms require specific spells, and balance forms with intelligently chosen spell level.
Divine Power - allows Clerics to fight better than the people who dedicate themselves to fighting. Fix: look at sane buffs like Bull's Strength and imagine what a level 4 version might look like
Righteous Might - like Divine Power, but it stacks with nearly everything. Fix: same as Divine Power
Black Tentacles - only grapple-specialized characters can escape. Fix: remove
Speak With Dead - easy gathering of information. Fix: remove, raise level, or raise difficulty
Freedom of Movement - negates an entire class of spells, entire class of characters. Fix: short duration, possibly in a swift version
Mind Blank - negates an entire class of spells. Fix: make less of a blanket immunity


Very Unbalanced: spells that need to be toned down just a little
Silent Image - as good as Wall of Stone and similar spells - nobody actually pokes the wall to see if its there. Fix: raise level of it and similar spells
Cloud of Bewilderment, Solid Fog, Grease, Web, Entangle, and so on - battlefield control spells are amazingly good. Fix: have less of them or make them less stackable. Solid Fog is vaguely balanced; Grease is vaguely balanced. Casting both on the same area? Kills everything.
Summon Monster, Nature's Ally, Planar Ally, ect - some choices have abilities very out of sync with their level. Fix: summon lists need to be looked at carefully.


Suspiciously Strong: spells that are extremely good but might be allowable without fixes
Color Spray, Prismatic Spray - ends fights
Sleep - ends fights
Glitterdust - ends fights
Haste - insane amount of buffs



Finally: while I don't believe that save or die spells are unbalanced, I do believe they are unfun. What I recommend is removing the save system entirely. Off the top of my head, this seems like a good fix:

Remove saves, give characters HP-like Fortitude Will, and Reflex points (equal to something like 2 + the character's score in that save). Spells that target these saves do damage to these points, and if a character reaches 0 or lower, they succumb to the spell. For a rough rule, make spells do Will or Fort damage equal to their spell level, and add a few spells with weak or no effect that do extra damage. These points recover at the rate of nonlethal damage.

Flavor-wise, losing Fortitude points is equivalent to feeling your physical defenses wear down, losing Will points is equivalent to feeling your mind cloud, and losing Reflex points is equivalent to feeling your reflexes slow.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-12, 09:07 PM
Broken: spells that destroy basic assumptions about the game
Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, ect - destroys the primary balancing factor of casters. Fix: remove.
Only when abused. You are better off actually following the rules that say you can only renew spells once per day. If the character is willing to wit around all day well then they are free to. But taking 4 days to clear a 5 room dungeon means that the characters take a very long time to level up (and you should enforce it). It's also not possible to rest after every fight if you are on a time sensitive mission.

So broken? Not inherently. Only when really abused (like lots of other spells).


Teleport, Dimension Door, ect - same as Rope Trick, plus you can skip challenges. Fix: remove, replace with shorter range ones, promote spells like Baleful Transposition
Again, not really broken. So what that the party doesn't face random encounters any more. It's not like they matter. The whole party is carried along (at least with teleport) so it's not a spell making another class worthless. DD is nice but its a tactical teleport and make sure you enforce the "no actions after using DD" rule.

Fly, Overland Flight, ect - allows casters to ignore melee characters. Fix: raise level of such spells, encourage spells like Swift Flight (swift action Fly that gives 60' fly speed for one round)
Fly should be a bit higher level and items of flight should be cheaper but its not that broken in practice. In PvP it can be but in regular game play its not broken, powerful? Sure. But broken? Not really.

Scry - auto-ambush. Fix: lower accuracy and raise difficulty
The actual scry spell really isn't that great. I mean its nice but in regular game play its not broken. You get more brokenness out of Contact Other Planes ("Will I be facing anything immune to fire tomorrow? To level drain? To death effects? Will I face any constructs tomorrow?" etc.)

Locate Object - destroys many quests. Fix: raise level substantially
All you do is make the object immune to scrying. It's not broken.


Hideously Unbalanced:spells that completely negate an entire class of characters or challenges
Polymorph, Shapechange, ect - allows Wizards to fight better than the people who dedicate themselves to fighting. Fix: make specific forms require specific spells, and balance forms with intelligently chosen spell level.
Actually polymorph/shapechange doesn't allow a caster to fight as well as a fighter (and any wizard trying it is an idiot). Shapechange is broken because some published monster has any given ability as an SU or EX ablity, meaning that with enough splat books the wizard can pretty much cast anything for free. The real problem with these is the ability to turn into anything. If each caster had to choose 5 or so forms (and stuff like the Zodar was barred) they wouldn't be that bad.

Divine Power - allows Clerics to fight better than the people who dedicate themselves to fighting. Fix: look at sane buffs like Bull's Strength and imagine what a level 4 version might look like
Righteous Might - like Divine Power, but it stacks with nearly everything. Fix: same as Divine Power
Mildly broken.

Black Tentacles - only grapple-specialized characters can escape. Fix: remove
Boo-Hoo. And very few casters can survive a full attack from an equal level fighter. Black Tentacles is nice and can even win fights on its own but its not broken.

Speak With Dead - easy gathering of information. Fix: remove, raise level, or raise difficulty
Again with spells being broken because the player can get information. If you are really finding the divinations to be broken maybe you should make quests that take their existence/availability into account instead of just removing them because they make your job as a DM slightly more difficult.

Freedom of Movement - negates an entire class of spells, entire class of characters. Fix: short duration, possibly in a swift version
FoM the spell isn't broken or even a real problem. It's the ring thats broken. Continuous FoM for 40K.

Mind Blank - negates an entire class of spells. Fix: make less of a blanket immunity
Do non casters have any abilities that are blocked by Mind Blank? No. Mind Blank is a defense against other casters. It isn't broken, just nice. And with a rod of chaining the whole party should have it anyways.


Very Unbalanced: spells that need to be toned down just a little
Silent Image - as good as Wall of Stone and similar spells - nobody actually pokes the wall to see if its there. Fix: raise level of it and similar spells
Cloud of Bewilderment, Solid Fog, Grease, Web, Entangle, and so on - battlefield control spells are amazingly good. Fix: have less of them or make them less stackable. Solid Fog is vaguely balanced; Grease is vaguely balanced. Casting both on the same area? Kills everything.
Summon Monster, Nature's Ally, Planar Ally, ect - some choices have abilities very out of sync with their level. Fix: summon lists need to be looked at carefully.

Again, none of these are particuarly powerful. I mean they are nice but not unbalanced.


Suspiciously Strong: spells that are extremely good but might be allowable without fixes[list]
Color Spray, Prismatic Spray - ends fights
Sleep - ends fights
Glitterdust - ends fights
Haste - insane amount of buffs


Haste doesn't allow any extra buffs. Again. These are all nice but not really overpowered or broken.

----------
If you are going to go on about broken spells you should at least hit the actually broken ones.
Celerity/Greater Celerity (and Foresight when combined with these)
Superior Invisibility
Mind Rape
Programmed Amnesia
Gate (if you allow abuse, its not inherently broken)
Shapechange (as gate)
Time Stop
Shadow Evocation/Conjuration

and a few others.

Most of the commonly considered broken spells in core aren't that broken unless abused. Gate and Shapechange for instance. If gate isn't used for unlimited Titan chains or for Wish abuse its fairly well balanced for a 9th level spell. If you have a few regular forms for Shapcehange and don't try to fine one for every occasion its nice but not broken.


And the real brokenness isn't from any spell in particular, its from spell combinations and/or metamagic abuse.

Decoy69
2008-02-12, 09:47 PM
Tenser's Transformation anyone?

It's the Arcane version of Divine Power and in my eyes it's a hell of a lot better.
Benefits:
+4 to all physical stats
+4 Natural armour
+5 to Fort saves
Proficiency with all martial and simple weapons
BAB = to your character level.

Drawbacks, You lose the ability to cast for the length of the spell. Expensive material component.


Ok, maybe losing spellcasting for 15 or so rounds is a pretty nasty drawback.
And it is 6th level.

huyneo
2008-02-12, 10:04 PM
Meh not really. but my 2 cents is
Hunter's Mercy
Ranger 1 Standard Action
Pretty much auto criticals with a bow
If it hits, it crits.

Chronos
2008-02-12, 10:15 PM
The Alter self spell wouldn't be as bad if it was a couple levels higher, in my opinion.A humorous quote, if you're familiar with the evolution of the Polymorph line of spells. What Alter Self is now, is almost exactly what Polymorph used to be, and what Polymorph is now, is almost exactly what Shapechange used to be. Alter Self, as it used to be, was only slightly better than the Changeling's disguising ability. The only thing it did, besides changing your appearance, was to grant you the movement mode of the form you turned into (so you could fly clumsily, or swim), and no matter what your type was, you were still limited to the same basic body plan (so no Aasimars turning into Ravids).

Since someone mentioned Mind Blank, keep in mind that it's the end result of a long arms race between divinations and the things which protect against divinations. There are similar spells at lower levels, which differ from Mind Blank primarily in being less absolute. And the top of the tree, whatever it is, is inevitably going to end up being absolute: If Mind Blank weren't absolute, then Discern Location would be, since the only thing that stops Discern Location from being absolute now is the fact that Mind Blank is proof against it. It's not too overpowered, for an 8th level spell. And for that matter, once you bring in psionics, it's not even absolute any more, since Metafaculty (a 9th-level power) defeats it.

tyckspoon
2008-02-12, 10:26 PM
Tenser's Transformation anyone?

It's the Arcane version of Divine Power and in my eyes it's a hell of a lot better.
Benefits:
+4 to all physical stats
+4 Natural armour
+5 to Fort saves
Proficiency with all martial and simple weapons
BAB = to your character level.

Drawbacks, You lose the ability to cast for the length of the spell. Expensive material component.


Ok, maybe losing spellcasting for 15 or so rounds is a pretty nasty drawback.
And it is 6th level.

See also: The above mentioned expensive component. Going into melee with a d4 HD. Not wearing armor (4 Natural armor? Yay, that's worth as much as a non-magical chain shirt. You're gonna get smushed.) Tenser's Transformation sucks. If you're intended to be a meleeing mage, you should already be better than this spell. If you're not, and you want to get a little melee power boost, you do it with Polymorph instead. It lasts longer, it's more useful, and it's only a 4th level slot.

valadil
2008-02-12, 10:27 PM
The problem with Polymorph (and with some summoning effects) is that it's only possible to balance it if you actually balance every single published monster for PC use. Essentially any ability a monster has, a polymorphing Wizard can get eventually (although they may need Shapechange at some point). Worse, it seriously rewards anal-retentive analysis of the Monster Manuals by players.

We've always run polymorph where you have to turn into something you have reason to know about. Just because MM6 gets published doesn't mean the wizard suddenly gets more shapes - he has to know about them first. This cuts down a lot of the potential cheese it brings. Same goes for alter self.

Superglucose
2008-02-12, 10:36 PM
Hmm... spells that I think are pretty broken...

Freedom of Movement as an ability is poorly done. Whoops! Can't grapple me!

I think the fix is rather simple though, make it give a +10 to grapple checks to avoid being grappled/pinned or something similar, rather than just a flat 'cant grapple!'


I don't like flat-out "you can't" effects. I just don't.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-12, 10:49 PM
Tenser's Transformation anyone?

It's the Arcane version of Divine Power and in my eyes it's a hell of a lot better.
Benefits:
+4 to all physical stats
+4 Natural armour
+5 to Fort saves
Proficiency with all martial and simple weapons
BAB = to your character level.

Drawbacks, You lose the ability to cast for the length of the spell. Expensive material component.


Ok, maybe losing spellcasting for 15 or so rounds is a pretty nasty drawback.
And it is 6th level.Again, not broken on it's own. It's only bad with a ring of spell storing, or Polymorph and a Familiar. (you can throw it onto the familiar and not hit yourself at all):smallbiggrin:

Squash Monster
2008-02-13, 01:43 AM
Only when abused. You are better off actually following the rules that say you can only renew spells once per day.The rules specifically say that spells per day really refers to spells per rest period. Additionally, what's the point of saying a spell is only broken if abused? If it's easily possible to abuse a spell into being broken, it's broken. Finally, setting up camp and doing a scouting order is an interesting part of the game, skipping it using one spell is a shame.


Again, not really broken. So what that the party doesn't face random encounters any more. It's not like they matter. The whole party is carried along (at least with teleport) so it's not a spell making another class worthless. DD is nice but its a tactical teleport and make sure you enforce the "no actions after using DD" rule.I put these on the list for the same reason as the above spells. The "no actions after DD" rule doesn't matter if you're just using it to leave and take a nap.


Fly should be a bit higher level and items of flight should be cheaper but its not that broken in practice. In PvP it can be but in regular game play its not broken, powerful? Sure. But broken? Not really.I only think fly is broken in the ease of its accessibility. If you concede that it should be higher level, it's good enough for me.


The actual scry spell really isn't that great. I mean its nice but in regular game play its not broken. You get more brokenness out of Contact Other Planes ("Will I be facing anything immune to fire tomorrow? To level drain? To death effects? Will I face any constructs tomorrow?" etc.)Point taken, Contact is way better. And yeah... I should've been more clear here: I meant scry as a general marker for certain divination spells. The problem isn't the information, the problem is the preparation: a wizard who starts his day knowing exactly what he's going to face is a bad thing.


Actually polymorph/shapechange doesn't allow a caster to fight as well as a fighter (and any wizard trying it is an idiot). Shapechange is broken because some published monster has any given ability as an SU or EX ablity, meaning that with enough splat books the wizard can pretty much cast anything for free. The real problem with these is the ability to turn into anything. If each caster had to choose 5 or so forms (and stuff like the Zodar was barred) they wouldn't be that bad.The proposed fix is roughly equivalent to what you ask. And I think a buffed caster in the level-appropriate hydra form is plenty of a challenge for most fighters.


Boo-Hoo. And very few casters can survive a full attack from an equal level fighter. Black Tentacles is nice and can even win fights on its own but its not broken.No. It's fine that a caster can't survive a full attack from an equal level fighter (though if a caster is subjected to a full attack from a fighter he's a horrible caster). That's one class vs one class in optimal conditions. Black Tentacles is good against almost everybody, in almost every situation.

To give an idea of how good this spell is: at the WotC Character Optimization boards, the writer of a Wizard handbook that says your goal should be "to line up your enemies flanked, single file, backwards, and on their head for good measure" said that he personally boycots using this spell with his characters.


Again with spells being broken because the player can get information. If you are really finding the divinations to be broken maybe you should make quests that take their existence/availability into account instead of just removing them because they make your job as a DM slightly more difficult.The problem with Locate Object is that at an extremely low level it can destroy dozens of situations. Room looks suspicious? Locate trap. Puzzle room? Locate switch. Ogres looking for you? Locate hide armor. Generic fetch quest? Locate foozle. Yes, it's easy to render an object immune. But if everything is immune, there's no point to the spell. And furthermore, if you have to go to the effort of making everything immune to a certain spell, isn't that spell too powerful?


FoM the spell isn't broken or even a real problem. It's the ring thats broken. Continuous FoM for 40K.It completely negates a type of attack, grappling monsters, and grappling characters. But yes, I agree that the ring is worse.


Do non casters have any abilities that are blocked by Mind Blank? No. Mind Blank is a defense against other casters. It isn't broken, just nice. And with a rod of chaining the whole party should have it anyways.Mind blank makes an entire school of magic (enchantment) useless, and makes monsters that use mind effecting spells useless. How does only being useful against other casters somehow make it not overpowered? The question isn't "why are casters better than everyone else", the question is "what spells are too good?".


Again, none of these are particuarly powerful. I mean they are nice but not unbalanced.Section headers exist for a reason.


Haste doesn't allow any extra buffs.The way you use the word buff and the way everyone I know use the word buff seems to be different. I use the word buff to mean each individual thing it does. Haste buffs reflex saves, ac, speed, attack, and, of course, number of attacks.


Celerity/Greater Celerity (and Foresight when combined with these)Agreed. If I'd thought of these when putting them on my list, they would've been in the second group.


Superior InvisibilityNot that powerful at a level where everything has true seeing.


Mind Rape
Programmed Amnesia
Gate (if you allow abuse, its not inherently broken)
Shapechange (as gate)
Time StopThese are all ninth level spells. Although I'll grant that these are all probably too strong, at this point the game balance has been irrelevant for two levels, and the game has been largely unbalanced for the last ten. Spells that don't come into play until the last few levels have nowhere near as much effect on the game as spells that have been hurting the game since level 7. Also, I mentioned shapechange.



Shadow Evocation/Conjuration
Not actually that powerful, outside of the hands of a shadowcraft mage.

Voyager_I
2008-02-13, 02:16 AM
Holy Word and its derivations. Combine them with a few buffs to your oh-so-mutable Caster Level, and everything that hears you and isn't your alignment dies with no save. The end.


Also, Tenser's Transformation really sucks. Think about what your Wizard will be fighting at 11th level. Having 14 Strength and a few extra hit points on top of your d4 do not make you a melee character. The fact that it also costs your class's sole reason for existence shunts it from merely granting underwhelming bonuses that aren't worth it to actively making you really, really, bad.

If the Fighter gets his hands on it, it'll probably do nothing. He's already got proficiencies, he's already got full BAB, and he's probably already got better stat bonuses from magic items. In the end, he might be getting some of the Dexterity bonus and that Natural Armor...at the cost of a 6th Level Spell, and having gone through the trouble of accessing it.

...now, let a Rogue UMD that, and it might actually be useful. Nothing that far out of line for an expensive and difficult strategy (considering he should already know how to use his weapons and have gloves of Dexterity, with items for Strength and Constitution not being out of the question), but at least we've finally found someone who could potentially have a reason to cast this.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-02-13, 02:30 AM
Personally, I'd be in favor of just dropping all save or die effects from the face of D&D. I don't like save or die effects, D&D becomes to arbitrary at high levels at least in part because everything and it's dog can force at least one save or die effect a round, if not more. Seriously, I'm in the camp that says a seventeenth level character shouldn't go down more easily to an ECL appropriate challenge then a first level character.

That said, I'd toss slow onto the list. Yes it's low level, and a very common spell does counter it, but if you throw this spell at someone that doesn't have easy access to haste, you win if it sticks. It is basically a low level mass save or die effect, because restricting actions even at 5th level is really powerful. If you heighten the damn thing it only gets better at higher levels.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-13, 02:39 AM
Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos is probably too much fun to be a recommendable spell. But it's effect isn't too large: It's just like a fast Feat retraining option for wizards. It gets broken when you have an Elven wizard that sacrifices their unneeded racial feats, which they have a boatload of. 6 extra feats from an LA +0 race? Sign me up!

Talic
2008-02-13, 03:08 AM
Broken: spells that destroy basic assumptions about the game
Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, ect - destroys the primary balancing factor of casters. Fix: remove.

Agreed.


Teleport, Dimension Door, ect - same as Rope Trick, plus you can skip challenges. Fix: remove, replace with shorter range ones, promote spells like Baleful Transposition

Not at all. Range won't fix what you're trying to fix. Casting time will. If teleport takes 5 rounds to cast, it has no combat applications. D door stuns you effectively when you cast it, preventing further action. Makes me personally skittish of warping somewhere that's not safe.


Fly, Overland Flight, ect - allows casters to ignore melee characters. Fix: raise level of such spells, encourage spells like Swift Flight (swift action Fly that gives 60' fly speed for one round)

Balanced against CL 5-7. CR 5 to 7 is when monsters begin gaining abilities to deal with flight.


Scry - auto-ambush. Fix: lower accuracy and raise difficulty
Locate Object - destroys many quests. Fix: raise level substantially

Agreed.


Hideously Unbalanced:spells that completely negate an entire class of characters or challenges
Polymorph, Shapechange, ect - allows Wizards to fight better than the people who dedicate themselves to fighting. Fix: make specific forms require specific spells, and balance forms with intelligently chosen spell level.

I agree flexibility needs to be removed from the line. I don't know if that's the exact way to go though.


Divine Power - allows Clerics to fight better than the people who dedicate themselves to fighting. Fix: look at sane buffs like Bull's Strength and imagine what a level 4 version might look like

A spell that mimics BAB and a few buffs for 1 round per level? Really, it's DMM cheese that breaks this, not the spell itself.


Righteous Might - like Divine Power, but it stacks with nearly everything. Fix: same as Divine Power

Again, if it can't be on all day, then there's only so much buff that can be done in combat.


Black Tentacles - only grapple-specialized characters can escape. Fix: remove

Or ones with freedom of movement, or a good BAB, or escape artist check... Which is every class in the game.


Speak With Dead - easy gathering of information. Fix: remove, raise level, or raise difficulty

Ah, because divination, the weakest of schools is SO borken. I could see raise diff, but information is restricted to what the dead character KNEW. Hardly broken.


Freedom of Movement - negates an entire class of spells, entire class of characters. Fix: short duration, possibly in a swift version

Wholeheartedly agreed. Perhaps 1 round/level at level 5. Or 1 round at level 3, as a swift action.


Mind Blank - negates an entire class of spells. Fix: make less of a blanket immunity

Spells like this are the reason wizards must be versatile. If you want to keep magic in check, spells like this help. This doesn't negate a class. It negates a tactic. Very different.


Very Unbalanced: spells that need to be toned down just a little

Silent Image - as good as Wall of Stone and similar spells - nobody actually pokes the wall to see if its there. Fix: raise level of it and similar spells

Hah! anyone familiar with the area would have a check on LOOKING at the changed dimensions for the room. No audio, no cover, just concealment, as long as the creatures behind it don't fail any move silent checks. Cause hearing sound clearly coming through a solid wall would qualify as a clue for interaction. Interact does not equal touch.


Cloud of Bewilderment, Solid Fog, Grease, Web, Entangle, and so on - battlefield control spells are amazingly good. Fix: have less of them or make them less stackable. Solid Fog is vaguely balanced; Grease is vaguely balanced. Casting both on the same area? Kills everything.

And it's a 2 round combo. Things that stay in the area deserve death. Without quicken effects, it requires too much setup. Control is strong, yes. Overly? Not really. I do agree with LESS control, but not less stackable.


Summon Monster, Nature's Ally, Planar Ally, ect - some choices have abilities very out of sync with their level. Fix: summon lists need to be looked at carefully.

Durations are remarkably low, but agreed, lists should be looked at.


Suspiciously Strong: spells that are extremely good but might be allowable without fixes
Color Spray, Prismatic Spray - ends fights
Sleep - ends fights
Glitterdust - ends fights
Haste - insane amount of buffs


Most Save or Lose spells do. Haste doesn't really help so much since 3.5, most of the others allow a mage with 2-3 level one spells to have a chance of making a difference. Ask yourself this. How often can a level 1 fighter swing a sword? 1-2 times a round, as a standard or full round action. (including TWF possibility). How many spells can a wizard cast between rests? 1-3 total. Maybe 4 or 5 if HIGHLY optimized. At low levels, they keep a wizard alive, about as well as shield or mage armor. At high levels, all of the above except glitterdust are mostly pointless.


Finally: while I don't believe that save or die spells are unbalanced, I do believe they are unfun. What I recommend is removing the save system entirely. Off the top of my head, this seems like a good fix:

Yes, you do. Or more precisely, you find the following unbalanced:
Save or lose
illusion
control
status effect changes
conjuration
divination

Question... What don't you find unbalanced?


Remove saves, give characters HP-like Fortitude Will, and Reflex points (equal to something like 2 + the character's score in that save). Spells that target these saves do damage to these points, and if a character reaches 0 or lower, they succumb to the spell. For a rough rule, make spells do Will or Fort damage equal to their spell level, and add a few spells with weak or no effect that do extra damage. These points recover at the rate of nonlethal damage.

I have a better suggestion for you, that accomplishes the same effect:
Add 3 more numbers to track for each monster, that scale downward like HP.
Make the first 2 spells low level wizards cast automatically have no mechanical effect on monsters (Translation: Wizard die)
Have all your players never play a wizard again.



Flavor-wise, losing Fortitude points is equivalent to feeling your physical defenses wear down, losing Will points is equivalent to feeling your mind cloud, and losing Reflex points is equivalent to feeling your reflexes slow.
And the only way to balance THAT is to allow wizards to as they progress, cast more spells per round (similar to fighters and attacks).

I mean, really.

Bob the Mage: I landed that charm person spell. It did 1 point to his will points, which is exactly the same as every other enchantment spell in my arsenal. Two more castings and I can actually...
*Splurk*
Orc: Loot the corpse.

Squash Monster
2008-02-13, 03:47 AM
Not at all. Range won't fix what you're trying to fix. Casting time will. If teleport takes 5 rounds to cast, it has no combat applications.Not trying to fix combat applications: trying to fix the fact that teleport does functionally the same thing as Rope Trick: lets you leave and take a nap.



A spell that mimics BAB and a few buffs for 1 round per level? Really, it's DMM cheese that breaks this, not the spell itself.One round per level is an entire combat, frequently multiple combats with an extend. Even if the Cleric wastes his first action casting this spell at the beginning of each fight, it still makes the Cleric better than the Fighter. (Contrary to what seems assumed: there's no reason the Cleric needs to start with 10 strength before buffs.)


Or ones with freedom of movement, or a good BAB, or escape artist check... Which is every class in the game.Wrong. Black Tentacles has a grapple check of 8 + caster level. The highest escape artist check for a character not specializing in it is 3 + modifier + class level, requiring 20 Dex and one skillpoint per level just for a 50/50 chance of getting out. For a medium-sized character relying on grapple to get out, its even worse: they need a +8 strength modifier. And yes, of course freedom of movement gets you out of it.




Ah, because divination, the weakest of schools is SO borken. I could see raise diff, but information is restricted to what the dead character KNEW. Hardly broken.This is a bad example on my part. However, it should be noted that this spell removes any need to take or interrogate prisoners. It should also be noted that it's a great way to skip research, as you can ask somebody who was alive at the time.


Spells like this are the reason wizards must be versatile. If you want to keep magic in check, spells like this help. This doesn't negate a class. It negates a tactic. Very different.Negates the entire Enchantment school, negates any mind-effect using monsters, negates a large number of Psionic abilities. And assuming something like this is needed to keep casters in check when the goal of the thread is to rebalance spells at large is silly.


Hah! anyone familiar with the area would have a check on LOOKING at the changed dimensions for the room. No audio, no cover, just concealment, as long as the creatures behind it don't fail any move silent checks. Cause hearing sound clearly coming through a solid wall would qualify as a clue for interaction. Interact does not equal touch.Read. I'm not talking about using the spell to sneak around. Most people know that wizards can say a bunch of goofy words and make a wall appear out of nowhere. How are they supposed to know which times the wall isn't real? And once you've already cast a Cloudkill, how are they supposed to know not to run away the second time you cast one?


And it's a 2 round combo. Things that stay in the area deserve death. Without quicken effects, it requires too much setup. Control is strong, yes. Overly? Not really. I do agree with LESS control, but not less stackable.Didn't say control was too strong, said it was too stackable. Making less control spells is one way of fixing that, as there are less ways to stack dozens of them up at once. And your argument about it being a two round combo is silly: how exactly do you propose that most characters leave a Solid Fog in one round?


Most Save or Lose spells do. These are AOE or multi-purpose save or lose spells that are well beyond the power level of other spells of their level.


How many spells can a wizard cast between rests? 1-3 total. Maybe 4 or 5 if HIGHLY optimized.Are you arguing that because a level one wizard can cast three spells per day, it's okay that those three spells each end an encounter in a single action?


Yes, you do. Or more precisely, you find the following unbalanced:
Save or lose
illusion
control
status effect changes
conjuration
divinationI argued against a few specific AOE save or lose spells, the lowest-level illusion spell's ability to effectively mimic many conjuration spells, the complete lack of limitation on the stacking of control spells, and divination spells that are capable of skipping large portions of a campaign's challenge. I'm also not sure what I did to you personally that was so offensive that you decided it was okay to be so rude as to correct me on my own words.


Question... What don't you find unbalanced?Reading comprehension. I think the fact that so few people have it is a perfectly legitimate way to balance what would otherwise be a game-breaking effect.


rantExcuse me for making a suggestion for the beginnings of an alternative system without examining the way said system would work at all levels and thoroughly play-testing it beforehand. I was wrong to think that I could suggest something new and expect people to run with it, rather than mock an incomplete system ruthlessly. Next time I have a new idea, I'll be sure to fill out every last detail of it so that it is bulletproof and flawless, as imperfect ideas defile the internet you post on.

Also, you completely missed the portion about there being spells that soften up targets for future spells. And the rough idea I gave for how many will points a creature had? Yeah, that gives the orcs from your example 0. Don't know how they survived so many color sprays. Yes, the first version of the system I suggested doesn't actually work: but you're paying so much attention to telling me how wrong I am that you haven't actually figured out why I'm wrong. I'm wrong because it makes early-game AOE save or dies even more powerful, not less.

Talic
2008-02-13, 05:05 AM
Not trying to fix combat applications: trying to fix the fact that teleport does functionally the same thing as Rope Trick: lets you leave and take a nap.

Or get anywhere you need to be. There are ways to prevent people from LEAVING certain places. That's no need to limit them from being able to get from A to B.


One round per level is an entire combat, frequently multiple combats with an extend. Even if the Cleric wastes his first action casting this spell at the beginning of each fight, it still makes the Cleric better than the Fighter. (Contrary to what seems assumed: there's no reason the Cleric needs to start with 10 strength before buffs.)

Provided he casts 2-3 buff spells in rounds 1-3 of the combat, he'll be better than the fighter in rounds 3-4, which is usually the last round. Without the duration, it costs a combat action. That's a HUGE cost, over a spell that's cast prior to combat, with duration enough to make it likely to be useful.


Wrong. Black Tentacles has a grapple check of 8 + caster level. The highest escape artist check for a character not specializing in it is 3 + modifier + class level, requiring 20 Dex and one skillpoint per level just for a 50/50 chance of getting out. For a medium-sized character relying on grapple to get out, its even worse: they need a +8 strength modifier. And yes, of course freedom of movement gets you out of it.

Skill focus drops that Dex requirement to 14. Improved grapple means an 18 strength has a 50/50. There are other ways, though at levels that see Tentacles, it's not too uncommon to see characters who max escape artist have a 20 dex, and damage cows with a 26 strength.


This is a bad example on my part. However, it should be noted that this spell removes any need to take or interrogate prisoners. It should also be noted that it's a great way to skip research, as you can ask somebody who was alive at the time.

There is a limit on how long the person can be dead... Though directing my character to spend 3 weeks poring over musty tomes is hardly what I call a rip-roarin' good time. :smallamused:
While you can still get answers from dead people... So? Is there something that makes the game less fun by allowing people to do this? I mean, people who want to keep 'em alive can still do that, right? This isn't a balance issue, rather a playstyle issue. Keep personal preferences out of it. Your arguement isn't based on BALANCE. It's based on wanting to force the players who'd rather kill first and ask questions later to do it your way.


Negates the entire Enchantment school, negates any mind-effect using monsters, negates a large number of Psionic abilities. And assuming something like this is needed to keep casters in check when the goal of the thread is to rebalance spells at large is silly.

And Dispel Magic nullifies it. Also, it's a very high level spell. Not something that comes up in day-to-day adventuring. If players reach level 15, they should have some resistances to some tactics. Monsters have abilities that negate classes, such as immunity to sneak damage, immunity to spells, incorporeal nullifies most physical combat. It's not unreasonable to have some parties immune to that. CR 15, there's not many listed monsters in that range mindblank will really help against. Perhaps lower level creatures, but really, a 15th level ability that makes CR9 encounters easier is HARDLY game-breaking.
Also note, there are still 7 valid schools of magic, and MANY psionic abilities that still work. If a character doesn't include them, it doesn't mean the game is unbalanced... It means the character is.


Read. I'm not talking about using the spell to sneak around. Most people know that wizards can say a bunch of goofy words and make a wall appear out of nowhere. How are they supposed to know which times the wall isn't real? And once you've already cast a Cloudkill, how are they supposed to know not to run away the second time you cast one?

Ah, well that's easy. Spellcraft. If they don't have it? TEST. Throw a rock at the wall that just appeared. Rogues bluff with feints. Mages do it with illusion. Don't think that the weakest of illusions is too strong because, *gasp*, some creatures may sometimes fall for it. That's the point.


Didn't say control was too strong, said it was too stackable. Making less control spells is one way of fixing that, as there are less ways to stack dozens of them up at once. And your argument about it being a two round combo is silly: how exactly do you propose that most characters leave a Solid Fog in one round?

Hmm, Dim door, high movement, etc. Also, you don't need to leave it, just get 10 feet. Total cover keeps the mage from knowing exactly where you are, and grease doesn't cover a huge area. Heck, moving 5 feet gives you a 50/50 of leaving the area grease will land in.


These are AOE or multi-purpose save or lose spells that are well beyond the power level of other spells of their level.

Debatable.


Are you arguing that because a level one wizard can cast three spells per day, it's okay that those three spells each end an encounter in a single action?

If they do, than the person who set up the encounter is a moron. I'm saying that the spells should be USEFUL. How long does is take a level 1 fighter with power attack and cleave to kill 2 AC 13 goblins? 1 round, assuming two decent rolls, and close spacing.
How long does it take a level 1 wizard to do it with a sleep spell? 1 round, assuming 2 bad rolls, and close spacing.
See where I'm going with that?


I argued against a few specific AOE save or lose spells, the lowest-level illusion spell's ability to effectively mimic many conjuration spells, the complete lack of limitation on the stacking of control spells, and divination spells that are capable of skipping large portions of a campaign's challenge. I'm also not sure what I did to you personally that was so offensive that you decided it was okay to be so rude as to correct me on my own words.

Mimic, yes. Because Silent image really does provide total cover, or save or die rolls, or con damage... Oh wait, no it doesn't. It grants concealment, and... well, that's about it. As for spell stacking, it's no different than feat stacking, except that the wizard needs to spend half a combat to do it, and the fighter doesn't.
Oh, and I wouldn't correct them if they were correct to begin with. Don't assume insult when none was intended.


Reading comprehension. I think the fact that so few people have it is a perfectly legitimate way to balance what would otherwise be a game-breaking effect.

Not sure if that's a subtle dig or not, so I'll leave it alone.


Excuse me for making a suggestion for the beginnings of an alternative system without examining the way said system would work at all levels and thoroughly play-testing it beforehand. I was wrong to think that I could suggest something new and expect people to run with it, rather than mock an incomplete system ruthlessly. Next time I have a new idea, I'll be sure to fill out every last detail of it so that it is bulletproof and flawless, as imperfect ideas defile the internet you post on.

But to present a system that provides creature X with complete immunity to 2 castings, and complete vulnerability to 3... Or complete vulnerability to 1, without even a chance of success, is inherently unbalanced.


Also, you completely missed the portion about there being spells that soften up targets for future spells. And the rough idea I gave for how many will points a creature had? Yeah, that gives the orcs from your example 0. Don't know how they survived so many color sprays. Yes, the first version of the system I suggested doesn't actually work: but you're paying so much attention to telling me how wrong I am that you haven't actually figured out why I'm wrong. I'm wrong because it makes early-game AOE save or dies even more powerful, not less.
So the orcs have a complete vulnerability to it, without any chance of resisting? See above comment.
As for late game, it makes them completely ineffective at doing what they're intended to do. Remove something from a combat.
Now, I have a thorough grasp on WHY you're wrong. It's explaining it to you that may prove to be a challenge.

Lord_Gareth
2008-02-13, 09:24 AM
Try to keep it civil - you're not flaming YET, but I'd for hate this thread to get locked - I'm learning a lot.

Can ya'll do me a favor and explain a few of these effects? For example, Celerity. No clue what it does. Actually, just assume if it's not in the PhB, I've got no clue T_T

It seems the issues that seem to be coming up are -

- Combinations of spells

- Specific, powerful effects

- Casting time (especially when combined with specific, powerful effects)

So, here's what I want to ask of you guys - I want you to look at the Paradigm Project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71041), since I sorely need help in balancing it. When you look at it, keep the following in mind -

No Ritual (the only system up) is made without specific DM consent, approval, and view. Players can't just write something on their sheet - it is, by necessity, a collaboration between DM and player.

Metamagic doesn't work on Rituals. At all.

I have not yet put in all wordings. I've missed a few obvious things (like making Scream do sonic damage) and some things I just don't know how to word (meaning I end up using some spells as, "this functions as [spell name]").

Thank'ee kindly, and keep the debate up! I need to know this stuff!

*continues taking notes*

Voyager_I
2008-02-13, 10:14 AM
Excuse me for making a suggestion for the beginnings of an alternative system without examining the way said system would work at all levels and thoroughly play-testing it beforehand. I was wrong to think that I could suggest something new and expect people to run with it, rather than mock an incomplete system ruthlessly. Next time I have a new idea, I'll be sure to fill out every last detail of it so that it is bulletproof and flawless, as imperfect ideas defile the internet you post on.

Also, you completely missed the portion about there being spells that soften up targets for future spells. And the rough idea I gave for how many will points a creature had? Yeah, that gives the orcs from your example 0. Don't know how they survived so many color sprays. Yes, the first version of the system I suggested doesn't actually work: but you're paying so much attention to telling me how wrong I am that you haven't actually figured out why I'm wrong. I'm wrong because it makes early-game AOE save or dies even more powerful, not less.

Sorry, but I'm gonna go with Talic and call "Bad Idea From the Start" on this one as well. Aside from making things much more complex than they have any reason to be...it just isn't a good mechanic. It basically turns everything into blasting, except nominally different and even less effective, because damaging it's "Will Points" doesn't help the Fighter kill it. Really, I'd say just cut your losses with that one; we wont' hold it against you.


Also, one spell doesn't make the Cleric better than the Fighter at fighting, they make him a "Fighter Without Bonus Feats" who also happens to be a Full Caster. This has essentially done nothing for him, since Holy Word isn't going to benefit from him temporarily having a full BAB, and his FWBF powers aren't exactly going to rock the house if he decides to play tough guy. He has to cast one or two other spells, which will cost him more actions. Simply taking two rounds to buff misses him half the fight. Add in that he might have to do this every encounter, and we have something distinctly less borked.

Telonius
2008-02-13, 10:26 AM
I think the only non-core spell I listed was Lesser Vigor. It gives you Fast Healing 1 for 11 rounds, so 11 damage healed. Put it in a Wand, and you have more powerful healing gizmo than a Wand of Cure Light wounds, at exactly the same cost.

Talanic
2008-02-13, 10:59 AM
In my games, Save or Die spells don't KILL, per se. A target hit by one of those spells who fails the saves is at -1, and will not stabilize naturally (even if possessing fast healing or regeneration) or wake up for at least ten rounds. Medical attention can save a life, but they're out of any current fight.

Squash Monster
2008-02-13, 11:29 AM
In my games, Save or Die spells don't KILL, per se. A target hit by one of those spells who fails the saves is at -1, and will not stabilize naturally (even if possessing fast healing or regeneration) or wake up for at least ten rounds. Medical attention can save a life, but they're out of any current fight.That's a good rule. Personally I've given my players an action point system to deal with it: you can go to -9 HP and stable using an action point, instead of dying.

Darzil
2008-02-13, 11:32 AM
I think the only non-core spell I listed was Lesser Vigor. It gives you Fast Healing 1 for 11 rounds, so 11 damage healed. Put it in a Wand, and you have more powerful healing gizmo than a Wand of Cure Light wounds, at exactly the same cost.

It's more powerful in overall healing, but less powerful in healing / round.

So good for recovery, not for in combat healing.

Probably therefore balanced.

Darzil

Telonius
2008-02-13, 11:54 AM
It's more powerful in overall healing, but less powerful in healing / round.

So good for recovery, not for in combat healing.

Probably therefore balanced.

Darzil

It's balanced only at low levels, when a Cure Light will really come in handy within a combat. By the time you get to mid-levels, you're usually using higher-level healing in combat when necessary. But you still have the same downtime between combats. Cure Light doesn't get used, ever; but Lesser Vigor becomes the default downtime heal.

Leon
2008-02-13, 06:05 PM
Blinding Spittle

LotharBot
2008-02-13, 06:30 PM
It seems the issues that seem to be coming up are -

- Combinations of spells

- Specific, powerful effects

- Casting time (especially when combined with specific, powerful effects)

That's pretty accurate, though I would categorize things differently. I think everything is about specific powerful effects, broken down into several categories:

- "absolute" effects such as freedom of movement, immunity to X, etc. that nullify entire segments of the game. These need to have level-appropriate counters, turn into bonuses rather than absolutes, or both.

- effects where the numbers are just too big (healing more hitpoints, dealing more damage, or gaining better benefits than others at that level.) Here, the numbers just need toned down. I'd include spells that are too quick in this category -- the effect is too much for the number of actions it takes to produce.

- effects that don't scale well with their counters (some ray spells will hit on any roll other than a 1 at high levels, and don't allow saves or SR. They're supposed to be countered by touch AC, but touch AC just doesn't go up as fast as attack bonuses.) They either need more counters or better scaling.

- effects that allow you access to too many possibilities (polymorph and the like -- any broken effect in any splatbook is at your fingertips.) Giving a list of possibilities (like for the Summon Monster spells) would go a long way toward fixing these.

- similar to the above, effects that stack with others in poorly thought out ways and therefore introduce unexpected possibilities. Adding statements like "this does not stack with blah blah blah or similar effects" can solve some of these, but the only real solution is cognitive unity of the entire magic system.

- effects that allow you to always fight battles on your own terms (fully rested, fully buffed, detailed knowledge of the enemy, guaranteed surprise rounds, etc.) IMO, divinations should give you helpful information, and proper use should let you gain an edge, but it should be difficult to use them to determine future actions against you, and you shouldn't be particularly more capable of using them than your enemies are.


In terms of time: a number of spells become less game-breaking if they take longer to cast or have some sort of delay built in. For example, in my wife's campaign, teleport is still a standard action cast, but you "materialize" on the other end like in Star Trek, giving anything standing there 1 round to prepare before initiative is rolled (this means they can't ready actions to whack you, but they can cast buffs, position to full attack the casters, get the heck out of there, etc.) You can also teleport anywhere as long as you have approximate distance and direction or could otherwise locate it on a map, but can't teleport to an area you've "seen" if you don't know approximately where it is. In this context, teleport is useful for travel and escape, but "scry and die" becomes much more difficult.

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-13, 07:06 PM
That's pretty accurate, though I would categorize things differently. I think everything is about specific powerful effects, broken down into several categories:

- "absolute" effects such as freedom of movement, immunity to X, etc. that nullify entire segments of the game. These need to have level-appropriate counters, turn into bonuses rather than absolutes, or both.
Again, it depends on the effect. Mind Blank is an absolute and it isn't broken. Why? Because the things it protects against can only be done by other casters. Superior Invisibility is broken. Why? Because without True Seeing you can't be targeted with anything at all ever by anyone. Freedom of Movement isn't broken until it becomes continuous through use of the ring, and even then its only overpowered really.


- effects where the numbers are just too big (healing more hitpoints, dealing more damage, or gaining better benefits than others at that level.) Here, the numbers just need toned down. I'd include spells that are too quick in this category -- the effect is too much for the number of actions it takes to produce.
I'll agree with the numbers being to big for the level being broken.


- effects that don't scale well with their counters (some ray spells will hit on any roll other than a 1 at high levels, and don't allow saves or SR. They're supposed to be countered by touch AC, but touch AC just doesn't go up as fast as attack bonuses.) They either need more counters or better scaling.
Agreed with this as well.


- effects that allow you access to too many possibilities (polymorph and the like -- any broken effect in any splatbook is at your fingertips.) Giving a list of possibilities (like for the Summon Monster spells) would go a long way toward fixing these.
Agreed again, although I would just have the caster pick 1 form per 4 caster levels or so that they can change into and gain the benefits from (you can still look like a dragon if you want but you don't gain the bonuses unless that type of dragon was one of your chosen forms).


- similar to the above, effects that stack with others in poorly thought out ways and therefore introduce unexpected possibilities. Adding statements like "this does not stack with blah blah blah or similar effects" can solve some of these, but the only real solution is cognitive unity of the entire magic system.
Yeah. Foresight+Celerity comes to mind.


- effects that allow you to always fight battles on your own terms (fully rested, fully buffed, detailed knowledge of the enemy, guaranteed surprise rounds, etc.) IMO, divinations should give you helpful information, and proper use should let you gain an edge, but it should be difficult to use them to determine future actions against you, and you shouldn't be particularly more capable of using them than your enemies are.
These really aren't broken. It's the CR system thats broken. More precisely the expectation that an equal CR fight should take a 4th of your resources. The fights/challenges per day mechanic should be taken outside and shot. It is possible the single stupidest and illogical, intentionally done, thing in D&D. Who was the idiot who thought that people who spend their lives risking their lives for treasure would ever enter a fight they didn't absolutely have to when at less than 100%? Really.
/end rant


In terms of time: a number of spells become less game-breaking if they take longer to cast or have some sort of delay built in. For example, in my wife's campaign, teleport is still a standard action cast, but you "materialize" on the other end like in Star Trek, giving anything standing there 1 round to prepare before initiative is rolled (this means they can't ready actions to whack you, but they can cast buffs, position to full attack the casters, get the heck out of there, etc.) You can also teleport anywhere as long as you have approximate distance and direction or could otherwise locate it on a map, but can't teleport to an area you've "seen" if you don't know approximately where it is. In this context, teleport is useful for travel and escape, but "scry and die" becomes much more difficult.

This is why any caster worth their salt has Anticipate Teleport/ Greater Anticipate Teleport up.

LotharBot
2008-02-13, 10:56 PM
Mind Blank is an absolute and it isn't broken. Why? Because the things it protects against can only be done by other casters.

... and because it can be dispelled by exactly the same people as it protects against. In other words, it has a level-appropriate counter, which superior invisibility doesn't.


Who was the idiot who thought that people who spend their lives risking their lives for treasure would ever enter a fight they didn't absolutely have to when at less than 100%?

There I agree. If I'm going to enter a fight, I'm going to enter it as ready as I can be. Anybody who walks into the room with a CR 20+ enemy and doesn't have all of their buffs active and their tactics planned out deserves to die. But there should be times when enemies choose to fight me when they're 100% ready and I'm not. As it stands, certain divinations allow me to completely negate any possibility of that happening. I don't think that's reasonable, particularly when you consider that my enemies have access to divinations as well.


This is why any caster worth their salt has Anticipate Teleport/ Greater Anticipate Teleport up.

Consider it a built-in mechanic in this world. I'm not really a fan of tactics that every X worth its salt will counter while every non-X is automatically susceptible. In the aforementioned world, if you're going to 'port in to the enemy base, it doesn't matter whether you come in on top of casters or fighters, they get a chance to react. I like this because it forces the players to do something more creative than "Scry, Teleport, Kill." But it's not for everyone.

Lord_Gareth
2008-02-14, 09:20 AM
I included time as a factor for a reason - casting times ARE a cost paid for the spell. If Fireball took four rounds to cast, don't you think it could be a second level spell?

I see casting a spell - or doing anything in D&D - as a tradeoff. You're doing this instead of that. It's just, in the case of a lot of spells, you're getting back a lot more than you paid.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-14, 10:57 AM
I included time as a factor for a reason - casting times ARE a cost paid for the spell. If Fireball took four rounds to cast, don't you think it could be a second level spell?

I see casting a spell - or doing anything in D&D - as a tradeoff. You're doing this instead of that. It's just, in the case of a lot of spells, you're getting back a lot more than you paid.

I'd say Fireball becomes worst than 2ndt level spells with that time delay in csting. I'd say a Fireball that has casting 4 rounds is 1st level.

Eorran
2008-02-14, 11:55 AM
A number of "broken" spells depend implicitly on a short duration for balance - Greater Invis, Freedom of Movement, Divine Power, as examples (don't have the books in front of me, so I may have picked bad examples).
Making these spells fixed duration, and detemining any fixed duration spell can't be persisted, permanencied, etc. could go a long ways.
Of course, you also have to deal with the player who uses divination to plan the whole day's actions before he moves...

Ashandrea
2008-02-17, 12:07 AM
I truly think the spells only become broken in the right situation. Time stop against a chronomancer would be useless. where as a wound to a wizard is always bad.
The hit points to a wizard are always always going to be a determing factor in deciding a broken spell for any campaign. The campaign setting being the first. If a wizard goes to plant world and casts a fireball then i would say that would be the most broken spell
But that same wizard with that same fireball in Water world is just about as effective as As a monkey writting a litterary opinion on Robert Jordan's eye of the world or a fish on dry land.

Most of the universally usable spells( i.e. True Strike, Prestidigitation, Master's touch,and Explosive Runes ) are all spells that any player who has had them used against them in a way that they did not think of is going to be offeneded by. Spells are a wizards weapons and armour. If a barbarian gets a blade of entropy(+5) and has it enhanced to be as well vorple is it his fault that he has it? Any spell can be broken in the wrong context. Wizards are limited to their spell slots, their memorization and their componets. A wizard without his componets is useless. A dm who does not think about the spells he or she allows is attempting to make it more challaging to himself. There is no way to make a universal spell list that does not in some way or other gift a wise individual with the ability to break the game. I applaud your attempt at it but the reall determining factors you should look at for this spell list are not the spells
1: Campaign(fire spells in water campaings vs nature campaings0
2: class(wizard, sorcerer, Whatever) for spell slots
3: Character age( ie an older wizard gains more slots and a younger one is only good for roleplaying)
4:hit dice levels and hit points(a bonus to ac is broken if you can take the hits and be fine but if you cant well then that is a problem)
5: Libraries and research. How common who controls them and what spells are they likely to give out.
6:Specialist or not. A mage is far more diverse but a specialist diviner is a dangerous first level character if built right.
7: Player. If you have a player who is good at breaking the game with a simple spell then use the same spells against him in more creaive ways.(an explosive runes spell book is a good way to do that)
8: your creativity. If a player out thinks you what are you going to do about it.
And last but not least What would a spell caster have to do to get that spell.

Lord_Gareth
2008-02-18, 09:04 AM
You make some points that are good for individual games, but play-balancing has to keep a lot of situations in mind. We need to balance the spells for a lot of situations - that's what I'm working on, y'know?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-18, 09:28 AM
We've always run polymorph where you have to turn into something you have reason to know about. Just because MM6 gets published doesn't mean the wizard suddenly gets more shapes - he has to know about them first. This cuts down a lot of the potential cheese it brings. Same goes for alter self.

Doesn't solve the problem. Now the DM, every time he introduces a new creature into the campaign, has to think not only "will this creature do what I want it to do" but also "will it be a problem if the wizard polymorphs into one of these".

The point is that Polymorph is problematic because what's perfectly fine for an NPC is not perfectly fine for a PC.

valadil
2008-02-18, 10:25 AM
Doesn't solve the problem. Now the DM, every time he introduces a new creature into the campaign, has to think not only "will this creature do what I want it to do" but also "will it be a problem if the wizard polymorphs into one of these".

The point is that Polymorph is problematic because what's perfectly fine for an NPC is not perfectly fine for a PC.

That's potentially true in a long game. I think polymorph is broken because it gives you a huge swiss army knife of stuff to turn into. You can pick something for just the occasion. Over the long term you made introduce enough enemies into the game that the player gains power eventually, but I have yet to see that happen with polymorph played this way.

Thrawn183
2008-02-18, 01:18 PM
I'm going to have to throw the combination of Maw of Chaos + Forcecage into the mix.

At high level when you can get both of these off in the same round, the only way your opponent can survive is through: a rod of cancellation, a contingency (that happens to work in this situation), a non- spell or spell-like ability to teleport (like an item), or a disintegrate effect that is non-spell or spell-like.

Granted it doesn't work on targets with the chaotic subtype, but really... not all THAT many things have the chaotic subtype.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-18, 01:45 PM
I've been thinking about the Poly line and how about this as a fix, you pick what you turn into at the time of memorization. This would preserve the feel of the "can turn into anything" poly spell while actually changing it to a fixed buff spell, ok it still doesn't fix PAO or Shapechange but Alterself and Polymorph become a lot less swiss army knife at a moments notice, you can fix a combat form or a burrowing form or a flying/hiding form but each takes up a slot each. What does the forum think of it as a work around?

Chronos
2008-02-18, 03:13 PM
I've been thinking about the Poly line and how about this as a fix, you pick what you turn into at the time of memorization.Hmm... Mechanically, that'd be much the same as having a separate spell for every form (the current "official" solution), since by that level, a wizard probably won't have difficulty getting every spell allowed by the DM into his book. But it'd be a lot less to keep track of, having only one spell do all of them, so that's a bonus. The big drawback, though, is how it would work for sorcerers, who don't have to prepare spells. If a sorcerer has to spend a separate "spells known" slot for every form, then it isn't any different from having a separate spell for each. And the separate-spell-for-each solution also provides an easy way to exclude forms which are inherently broken by themselves, like the hydra, or things that get abilities equivalent to higher-level spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-18, 05:04 PM
The only way I can see polymorph being fixed is by setting it up the same way as Summon Monster is. A list of transformable forms, separated by power level, with new monsters only added when someone has decided it's balanced.

But that's never going to happen, WotC isn't that logical.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-18, 05:16 PM
The only way I can see polymorph being fixed is by setting it up the same way as Summon Monster is. A list of transformable forms, separated by power level, with new monsters only added when someone has decided it's balanced.

But that's never going to happen, WotC isn't that logical.

This would also decrease the fun of the spell imho.