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playswithfire
2008-02-12, 10:01 AM
Did they ever flesh that out beyond what's in the quick sentence announcing its existence? Because it seems interesting, but there's some information missing, like, what is the casting stat? Do they need a minimum of that casting stat to learn a spell? Do they treat schools of magic like disciplines, meaning a ninth level abjuration spell would have a prereq of knowing 4 other abjuration spells? Can they specialize? etc

So, i probably didn't need to enumerate all of them. Just wondering if anyone's seen an official version. I've seen one or two homebrews and have an idea or two of my own, but, if there's a real one, I'd like to see it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-12, 10:46 AM
Nah, that's it. And for a good reason, it's probably the most broken thing ever, since you could recover ALL YOUR SPELLS with one use of adaptive style. Infinite timestops anyone?

Thrym
2008-02-12, 10:50 AM
Timestop? That's not even worst. Imagine that guy learning Arcane Disciple: Luck. Miracle at will anyone?

Darrin
2008-02-12, 10:51 AM
Did they ever flesh that out beyond what's in the quick sentence announcing its existence?

The overwhelming consensus is that the arcane swordsage variant would be monumentally a bad idea, and should never have been mentioned as a throw-away fluff blurb.

Unlimited abjuration, evocation, and transmutation casting? Even limited it to personal and touch range spells, it's a borkenanza.

It might have made more sense to replace maneuvers with warlock invocations, but even then... six invocations at first level? A warlock doesn't get that many until 10th level.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-12, 10:57 AM
Better would probably be a stacking feat that let you replace a limited number of manuvers with spells or invocations. Still insanely powerful, but not so much as unlimited full casting.

playswithfire
2008-02-12, 11:01 AM
The overwhelming consensus is that the arcane swordsage variant would be monumentally a bad idea, and should never have been mentioned as a throw-away fluff blurb.

Unlimited abjuration, evocation, and transmutation casting? Even limited it to personal and touch range spells, it's a borkenanza.

It might have made more sense to replace maneuvers with warlock invocations, but even then... six invocations at first level? A warlock doesn't get that many until 10th level.

I realize the potential for brokenness, but it seemed like an interesting character concept, so I was wondering if they'd taken the effort to actually flesh it out and make it less broken that speculation would have it.

Probably beginning with something like 'as spells are not actually maneuvers and require greater mental effort, a spell used in a maneuver slot can not become unexpended by the use of Adaptive style, however it my be unreadied by the use of that feat and a new maneuver or unexpended spell readied in its place. A spell may become unexpended using the swordsages standard recovery mechanism'

So you can reset a maneuver you've used and unready that spell you just cast, but you'll never cast a spell more than once per encounter (unless it lasts longer than 5 minutes and that's unlikely). Still powerful, but no infinite timestops, etc

Or I could give up on the idea.

Person_Man
2008-02-12, 11:12 AM
I've seen a lot of different variants online. Basically you have to homebrew something.

I toss out what's written in the TOB, and use what I think would work. Here's my suggestion:

Wis is the caster stat.

No armor proficiency. d6 hit die.

Maneuvers: Spells must have "Personal" or "Touch" as a range and "Instantaneous" as a duration.

Stances: Spells must have "Personal" or "Touch" as a range and a duration expressed in minutes or hours (not rounds). You can only have 1 stance in effect at any given time.

Maneuvers and Stances are otherwise used and recovered in the same exact way. All spells cannot be combined with metamagic. You must pay all XP and material component costs, as normal.

Your caster level is equal to your Swordsage level. You may pick any Arcane spell, subject to DM approval. The maximum spell level you can select is equal to your Swordsage level divided by 4, rounded up. (1-4 = 1st level spells, 5-8 = 2nd, 9-12 = 3rd, 13-16 = 4th, 17-20 = 5th).

This basically allows the Swordsage to make touch attacks and use some buffs and counters. But he can't blast, summon, or use battlefield control. The most abusive buff spells (which are all 1 round per level) are out. And he only has slightly better then half-caster progression. "Subject to DM approval" is the key to this variant. If a player tries to cherry pick the most abusive and powerful spells, then the DM should feel free to toss them out.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-12, 02:47 PM
Play a Duskblade.

playswithfire
2008-02-12, 03:40 PM
I could do that. I just liked the mental image of the caster/martial artist hybrid, though I guess I could do that with Duskblade.

The arcane variant also had me thinking a divine variant (swordsaint?) might also be fun, though it, too, could get broken unless the infinite spells thing got resolved.

Darrin
2008-02-13, 08:51 AM
Here's another idea on how to make this work:

1. Build a standard SwordSage.
2. Give him a bunch of maneuvers from the various disciplines.
3. Whenever he executes a maneuver, call it a "spell".
4. Profit!

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 09:57 AM
Here's another idea on how to make this work:

1. Build a standard SwordSage.
2. Give him a bunch of maneuvers from the various disciplines.
3. Whenever he executes a maneuver, call it a "spell".
4. Profit!BARBARIAN: Yeah, I'm a wizard, I kill things with fireball. *draws greatsword* Here, meet "fireball".

Also, scream "Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!" whenever you make a full attack.

...actually, that could be a fun character to play in a silly-themed campaign. You're a 6-int barbarian who is convinced that he is actually a magic user, even though you have all the magical abilities of a turnip.

"Stand back! I open door! I cast spell!" *bash with greatsword, smashing door completely* "SPELL!"

Miles Invictus
2008-02-13, 10:39 AM
If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level. In general, spells from the schools of abjuration, evocation, and transmutation are most appropriate for a swordsage of this type, especially spells with a range of personal or touch. The arcane spell is "cast" as if it were a martial maneuver.

It doesn't say that spells are recovered like martial maneuvers; it says that they're learned the same way and cast the same way. It's still pretty bad, but I don't think it leads to infinite Wish spam RAW.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-13, 10:43 AM
Play a Duskblade.

That's actually not a bad idea. Instead of allowing an arcane Swordsage unlimited access to Sor/Wiz spellcasting, grant them spell-manuevers as a Duskblade. The spells are more martial flavored already, and never quite rise to the heights of powers wizards and sorcerers do. It would still be brokenly powerful, but less powerful than a full wizard.