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Starbuck_II
2008-02-12, 04:31 PM
Hey, um, we started a new campaign.
We are starting level 6 ECL (so I was deciding what to play), I think 34 point Buy.

I wanted to do Duskblade. But he thinks they are broken. He joked, " Only if I played a -12 Point Buy: all stats at 6.
I was totally willing to take him up on challenge, but he said no they too broken.

By this, he means overpowered (not underpowered as broken has two contexts).

It is possible, he think they deal too much damage or maybe the casting in armor with good bab,... really I'm not sure.

Any ideas?

I'm settling for a 1/2 Dragon Warlock (because I never played either), but I'd like to get Duskblade a possibility.

Captain Bananas
2008-02-12, 04:42 PM
Well, you could play a Wizard, Cleric or Druid and show him the hard way.

But seriously, he should understand that in the grand scheme of things Duskblades are far more interesting than they are overpowered. They're not incredibly powerful like the aforementioned classes for spellcasting (or melee for the Cleric and Druid), and they're not half as cheesy as anything with Lion Totem Barbarian in it for pure melee.

I think his balance meter needs an adjustment.

Captain Bananas
2008-02-12, 04:47 PM
edit, because two posts are in fact not better than one.

Kioran
2008-02-12, 05:03 PM
Depending on the rest of the characters, your DM is either:

- right: most players play uncheesed Melee or spellcasting
- wrong: Lion Totem barbarian, Batman and CoDzilla hold a party woth massive twinkage and you ainīt invited

The Duskblade is a rather powerful class that, without much optimization can face most non-fullcaster builds that do not contain heavy cheese. Itīs not as powerful as the Beguiler (who suffers from the same problem as the druid: not the most powerful thing ever, but already obscenely powerful out of the box), but nothing to sneeze at either.

Iīd think long and hard about the amount of optimization you guys use. Chances are itīs rather low, and if it is, the man might just have a point

TheThan
2008-02-12, 05:06 PM
What exactly is his beef with the duskblade? Really we need to know what his argument is before we dismantle it.

Or you could just play a codzilla or Batman and show him what overpowered is.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-12, 05:12 PM
While duskblades aren't really broken, they are at a somewhat higher power level than your average group of non-optimizers. Particularly at low level, a duskblade can do obscene amounts of damage by nova striking, essentially taking out big monsters in a single round.

So your DM has a point. Perhaps not the greatest of points, but a point nevertheless.

One of my DMs thinks warlocks are overpowered because they can cast their spells as often as they want. Never mind the fact that, in the average session, nobody casts more than a dozen spells ever, as that game is not big on combat.

ChaosDefender24
2008-02-12, 05:45 PM
Just play a build that's actually powerful and show him that in the grand scheme of things the duskblade really isn't that powerful. It's flashy however

Hal
2008-02-12, 05:50 PM
While duskblades aren't really broken, they are at a somewhat higher power level than your average group of non-optimizers. Particularly at low level, a duskblade can do obscene amounts of damage by nova striking, essentially taking out big monsters in a single round.


As I'm building a Duskblade for my own game, I'm curious what this "nova strike" is. Perhaps you could explain?

As for being broken, I would point out that Duskblades are rather fragile for a melee class. You're going to be fairly limited in AC for a while, as Medium armor is the heaviest you can wear without the spell failure chance. Plus, you can either use a two-handed weapon or spend a feat on Somatic Weaponry and carry a shield.

FWIW.

AslanCross
2008-02-12, 05:54 PM
As has been mentioned earlier, it would be better to ask your DM exactly what about the Duskblade he thinks is broken. Duskblades only get their powerful nova spells at very high levels (disintegrate, polar ray). The full BAB and casting in light armor (medium at higher levels) is nothing---clerics have heavy armor and only need to cast divine power to rival that. And they get to cast all nine levels.

Given that the Duskblade has a very limited and almost purely offensive spell list, I really don't think they're broken. Better than a fighter, definitely, but nowhere as powerful as a cleric.


As I'm building a Duskblade for my own game, I'm curious what this "nova strike" is. Perhaps you could explain?

A nova strike is expending your resources (in this case, spells) faster than the "ideal" (1/4 of spells consumed per encounter) in order to swiftly and violently dispatch your enemy. Duskblades can do this very well by using their buffs (the crown spells, for example, are nova buffs since you dismiss them to gain a big bonus for one round) and combining those with channeling a powerful touch spell.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-12, 05:55 PM
As I'm building a Duskblade for my own game, I'm curious what this "nova strike" is. Perhaps you could explain?
"Nova-ing" is burning as many resources as you can in as short a span of time as possible without care for what happens later. Duskblades usually do it by quick-casting a spell modified by Smiting Spell, channeling another spell, burning one or two more into Arcane Strike, and charging.

Squash Monster
2008-02-12, 06:04 PM
Grab the Duskblade spell list and go through it with him level by level. At each level, compare it to the following list of Core Wizard spells:
1 - Grease, Color Spray, Sleep
2 - Web, Glitterdust, Alter Self (Troglodyte)
3 - Stinking Cloud, Displacement, Haste
4 - Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Polymorph
5 - Cloudkill, Teleport, Wall of Force

Then point out that wizards get all spell levels except level 1 earlier than Duskblades get their spells.

Explain to him that, although Duskblades get a whole bunch of stuff other than casting, they get nothing that even comes close to a Wizard's ability to effectively end a fight in his favor in the course of a single spell.


If that doesn't convince him, see if he'll let you play the following build (or however far along it you are):
Fighter 2 / Wizard 5 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 7
You get roughly the same thing as Duskblade, minus the nifty channeling ability, plus a few dozen times more power.


And finally, if that seems cheesy to him, play a Cleric. You're looking for the spells Divine Power and Righteous Might, and make sure to get the Travel domain. Buy a wand of cure light wounds so your party doesn't harass you to waste spells on curing. If that doesn't float your boat, Druid is even scarier.

Lolth
2008-02-12, 06:06 PM
In my experience, Duskblades are not overpowered but they can seem so, especially depending on circumstances.

They are excellent thwackers, of course, but they can't keep it up indefinitely. If your DM is the 1-2 fights a day sort, they generally make it through at the levels you're discussing.

Closer to "standard" encounter frequency, and you'll trade off on your fun by gasping for breath (spells) eventually.

Another issue is that Levels 5-7 are pretty much the Duskblade's "sweet spot." It doesn't get any better for them, comparatively. If he's only seen that, and not one at higher levels where the new goodies they get are progressively less impressive, compared to many other classes', I can see why your DM might fear them, or have an inaccurate (IMO) idea of their power.

valadil
2008-02-12, 06:14 PM
How Do I convince my DM Duskblades aren't broken?

You lie to him.

Actually I'm not entirely convinced that they're all that broken. I'd have to see one in action before deciding for sure. For some odd reason all my DMs have banned them though, so I haven't gotten to see one in action.

Anyway they get two good saves and full BAB. They get some spells on top of that. Usually split classes get more stuff to do, but can only do one thing per turn. A gish can usually be a caster or be a tank, but not both in the same turn. Duskblades get to cast touch spells and channel them during their full attack. That particular ability is where my DMs take issue with duskblade and end up banning the class.

krossbow
2008-02-12, 06:19 PM
I once made a radiant servant of Pelor in a undead focused campaign when my DM barred my Dual wand wielding bard.


Good times, good times... I make enemies go boom!

mabriss lethe
2008-02-12, 06:19 PM
You could play a hexblade instead. They don't seem quite so impressive as a Duskblade, but they can wreak havoc with the proper selection of spells and feats.

They don't have quite as many goodies as the duskblade does, but the toys they do have are truly nasty. Take a look at spells like Hound of Doom, whirling blade and cursed blade.

Just don't try to tank with one...

Miles Invictus
2008-02-12, 06:26 PM
Sorcerers and Wizards get access to every spell the Duskblade gets access to, can cast higher level spells that are harder to defend against, and have no dependency on Strength. Fighters and Barbarians have better hit die and no dependency on Intelligence -- they will always have more hit points, a higher attack bonus, and consistently higher damage.

You might also try showing him some of the cheese he actually allows. I don't mean "ruin his campaign by rolling up a crazy Wizard/Cleric/Druid", but point out some of the things he does allow, and explain how absurdly powerful those things are when used by a savvy player.

That said, the duskblade is very powerful at low levels. They've got access to some of the wizard's cheesier spells (sleep, color spray), and they've got a melee presence only slightly behind the fighter. I'm playing a duskblade in one of the Pathfinder modules and won two major battles by color spraying bosses after they KO'd a party member. In an unoptimized party, the duskblade will be very strong.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-12, 06:40 PM
If that doesn't convince him, see if he'll let you play the following build (or however far along it you are):
Fighter 2 / Wizard 5 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 7
The problem is that, unlike the duskblade, that build doesn't do all that much at low levels.

Whereas a duskblade can nova strike at low levels by comboing, say, Shocking Grasp + Blade of Blood + Power Attack for something like +6d6 damage, and that's only because Arcane Strike has higher prereqs.

Frosty
2008-02-12, 06:58 PM
duskblade is a great damage dealer at low levels. but then, so is a barbarian.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-12, 08:04 PM
In my experience, Duskblades are not overpowered but they can seem so, especially depending on circumstances.

They are excellent thwackers, of course, but they can't keep it up indefinitely. If your DM is the 1-2 fights a day sort, they generally make it through at the levels you're discussing.

Closer to "standard" encounter frequency, and you'll trade off on your fun by gasping for breath (spells) eventually.

Yeah, my DM usually only has 2 fights/day. I've seen multiple once (that was 5). 3 can happen, but the average is 2.





Another issue is that Levels 5-7 are pretty much the Duskblade's "sweet spot." It doesn't get any better for them, comparatively. If he's only seen that, and not one at higher levels where the new goodies they get are progressively less impressive, compared to many other classes', I can see why your DM might fear them, or have an inaccurate (IMO) idea of their power.

Yeah, he played one in a low campaign (with a person I knew): Low money so casters ruled. And he was level 5, so he was at sweet spot.




You might also try showing him some of the cheese he actually allows. I don't mean "ruin his campaign by rolling up a crazy Wizard/Cleric/Druid", but point out some of the things he does allow, and explain how absurdly powerful those things are when used by a savvy player.

Last campaign before stopped, party:
Wizard X/IoSV X
Wu Jen 7/Fatespinner 4/ Loremaster 1(was me)
Dragon Shaman 13
Beguiler 10/Mindbender (one that has telepathy) 2, I think that was build
CW Samurai X/Ronin X
Fighter X/Tempest
Scout X/Dervish X
Favored Soul 6 (she dropped out though due to school)
Fighter/Dwarven Defender
Druid (with PHB shifter exchange for wildshape), he dropped though due to school

New campaign:
My dude
a 1/2 Celestial Fighter 2
human Rogue 6
a 1/2 Elf Warmage 6: (note DM let him trade elven skill stuff for a feat)
Halfing Cleric
Human Cleric of Pelor

Soon to be joining:
Druid/MoMF (he won't be able to join right away due to school stuff)

We are having a few sessions at level 6, than we are playing 15 years later when level 15 (more or less). He hasn't explained what exactly he means.

Yami
2008-02-13, 05:47 AM
My suggestion would be to play a cleric, and grab the magic domain. Then use Any-Spell to turn your divine spells into lower leveled arcane ones. Not the most optimal work around, and you'll be tempted with persist spell and DMM cheese, which can be devastating with such spells as swift fly and wraith strike.

But as long as you stay off the cheese, your cleric should function like a duskblade.

Saph
2008-02-13, 07:32 AM
I've had the same problem. I played my by-the-book Duskblade in a 5th-level one-off, and the the DM was shocked (no pun intended) by the nova strikes.

Quick-cast True Strike + Full Power Attack + Arcane Channelled Shocking Grasp + normal weapon damage gave an average hit of 35-40 points of damage or so. It looks impressive . . . if you don't take into account that the Duskblade can only do it once per day, while the raging Barbarian can only do half that much, but can do it over and over again.

Unfortunately, once a DM decides that something's overpowered, it's quite hard to shake the belief. It usually takes a while.

Duskblades at level 15 aren't overpowered at all - multiclass gishes are a good bit stronger by then, due to the Duskblade's weak spell progression.

- Saph

Starbuck_II
2008-02-13, 09:19 AM
I've had the same problem. I played my by-the-book Duskblade in a 5th-level one-off, and the the DM was shocked (no pun intended) by the nova strikes.

Quick-cast True Strike + Full Power Attack + Arcane Channelled Shocking Grasp + normal weapon damage gave an average hit of 35-40 points of damage or so. It looks impressive . . . if you don't take into account that the Duskblade can only do it once per day, while the raging Barbarian can only do half that much, but can do it over and over again.

Unfortunately, once a DM decides that something's overpowered, it's quite hard to shake the belief. It usually takes a while.

I was afraid of that.

Worst, he would even ban it if I accepted all 8's across the board. Unless, I boosted my stats by level/magic items, I couldn't even cast spells.

He still thought it too strong.


Duskblades at level 15 aren't overpowered at all - multiclass gishes are a good bit stronger by then, due to the Duskblade's weak spell progression.

- Saph
I'd assume so, but what ya going to do...

Well, I'll try to find out if the Nova/damage is main issue.
For now I'll try Warlock. At level 15, Chilling Tentacles and all those battle field control spells will be cool.

Wraith
2008-02-13, 09:29 AM
How Do I convince my DM Duskblades aren't broken?


Just play a build that's actually powerful and show him that in the grand scheme of things the duskblade really isn't that powerful. It's flashy however

Seconded.

For this purpose, I recommend playing as a 5 Druid/X Planar Shepherd (Faiths of Eberron) of either Dal Quor the Plane of Dreams, Syrania the Plane of Good or Xoriat the Plane of Madness (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=709233) for a couple of weeks, and then ask for your Duskblade back.

He'll be grateful.

Seriously, no sensible GM in the world would prefer you to legally be able to shapechange into a Titan and use Meteor Swarm/Firestorm/Chain Lightning at will, or into an Efreeti and use Wish at will, or into a Solar and cast as a level 20 Cleric AS WELL as full Druid progression, compared to a mere Full BAB and a few Arcane spells. :smalltongue:

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 09:34 AM
Itīs not as powerful as the Beguiler (who suffers from the same problem as the druid: not the most powerful thing ever, but already obscenely powerful out of the box), but nothing to sneeze at either.The beguiler isn't really as powerful as the druid. While good at what it does, it has clear weaknesses... one of the problems with druids is, well, what are they bad at?

kamikasei
2008-02-13, 09:39 AM
Worst, he would even ban it if I accepted all 8's across the board. Unless, I boosted my stats by level/magic items, I couldn't even cast spells.

He still thought it too strong.

That seems completely unsupportable. What is it he's afraid you'll do, hit things with your swords?

Person_Man
2008-02-13, 10:23 AM
It's almost impossible to break a game by building a powerful PC. The DM can always just throw more powerful enemies at you.

The only real way to break a game is to build a PC that's relatively much more powerful then the other PCs. Even then, if a weak PC has an interesting niche which other PCs ignore (party face, scout, meat shield, etc) you can still have a very fun game.

Duskblades excel at one thing. Hitting stuff in melee combat. In D&D, that generally ranks below battlefield control and Save or Lose builds. And it almost entirely ignores useful Skills. So even if they were very powerful (which they're not), it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Another option is that you could build a virtual Duskblade. An Enlightened Fist or an Arcane Fist can do similar things. Or you could just buy spell storing weapons (or take 2 levels of Kensai).

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-13, 11:03 AM
I never really understood how "going nova" was something to get all that concerned about. Are there really that many campaigns out there that are built on only one combat encounter that can easily be overcome with a nova per day?

Yeah, going nova is a powerful option that can make a number of BBEG fights difficult. But I don't think it's that hard to overcome, especially when the DM knows that a character is capable of going nova.

Yakk
2008-02-13, 11:22 AM
The character's nova burst can be a problem, in that it means you have to coordinate "which fights to you go nova on".

As the power of the character varies wildly from one fight to the next, it is harder to push the "these fights are scary, but not deadly" edge-of-the-curve at the players.

Either the DM has to rapidly retailor every fight to take into account the current resources of the party, or the player has to rapidly figure out how "nova" they should go in each and every fight. If the DM misses or the Player misses, you end up with a yawn-fest or a TPK.

Ie: even barring player power, "nova" classes are a problem.

Squash Monster
2008-02-13, 11:23 AM
I don't particularly understand the problem with the whole nova issue either. In my campaign, for a long time half the players were Swordsages. Every last one of them could unleash hell once per combat. Eventually I just decided that if I wanted to really challenge them, I'd have to send pairs of big scary monsters at them, so they could obliterate the first in one round and the second could cause lots of damage while they try to regroup. And that worked quite well.

Ganurath
2008-02-13, 11:29 AM
He won't let you play a Duskblade for reasoning we don't have. I suggest conceding the point, and fill a relatively empty roll in your party by playing a Batman Wizard.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-13, 11:48 AM
The character's nova burst can be a problem, in that it means you have to coordinate "which fights to you go nova on".
That should all really be considered the player's problem, then. It's the player's responsibility to manage his or her own resources. Sure, it's up to the DM to offer challenging fights and, when necessary, be gentle and forgiving. But past a certain point, it becomse plain coddling to bend over backwards because a player isn't making the appropriate efforts in resource management.

EDIT:

More to the point: Difficulty in predicting when it's safe to go nova is the primary balancing factor in the very concept. When the technique can frequently and safely be used with abandon, you lose the very sense of drama the concept is supposed to create. Additionally, it begins to overshadow the classes that have limited or no capacity to go nova themselves. The technique should be used rarely and in most cases restricted to last resorts.

Draco18s
2008-02-20, 12:40 AM
I'm going to jump in here, having read about half of the first page.

(Rant on Duskblades, skip to bottom if you want it consise)
Duskblades aren't broken (overpowered). They're broken UNDERPOWERED.
I currently play one (level....7) and despite having an item (not a relic as per Magic Item Compendium, but something similar I think my DM made up--the entire group has seriously never heard of items like these) that allows me to add metamagic feats without increasing casting time (I have Split Ray and convinced my DM to allow the Easy Metamagic feat from Dragon Magazine (reduce the spell level "cost" of (a specific?) metamagic by 1)), so I'm not burdened by the normal effects of metamagic on spont-casters.

My issue:

Duskblades are good at (possibly) two things:
Touch spells though melee attacks
Ray spells and making them better (weapon focus ray, split ray...)

What kinds of spells do duskblades get?

Lets see...
A total combined seven ray spells of varying levels (currently I know all four I can know: ray of frost, ray of enfeeblement, seeking ray, and scorching ray). Two of which kinda suck (ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion) except in certain circumstances. Two of the better ones you'd never be able to split (and without easy metamagic you'd NEVER EVER want to split them, as you'd use up a spell slot 2 levels higher. Hmm...disintigrate or two rays of exhaustion?).
A total combined eight touch spells. Almost none of which do damage, and the rest are of use no more than once in a combat, and half of them are useful in any given combat at all (look mom! dispelling touch! I wonder how often I'll get to use this in the real world!).

Total number of spells (non-0th) known: 1 + Class Level, and never above 5th level.

The other retard thing: a duskblade should have a 16 or higher intelligence score (you need a 15 to cast your highest level spells). Lets see how many 0th level spells known that gives us...Five. How many are on the spell list? Four. What the crap? I can know more 0th level spells than I can learn (the character I have has a 18 intelligence: that's 6 0th level spells).

Duskblades can't "nova strike" until they have access to third level spells. Preferably two third level spells known. Or 10th level. Otherwise known as the point at which PCs become rediculously powerful and are "nova stiking" every combat anyway--sometimes for fun (world's largest dungeon: we used a 9000 gp spell in a fight against three harpies, the notable effect was 0, I believe they ran away and we had to fight them again later. Typical fights included a black dragon breathing acid on us while we slept and still kicking it's tail (a second time); the next two hours revolved around wheather or not to spend 5000 gp to summon a bhargest to feast on its soul so it didn't get resurected again).

=============

Ok, so enough ranting, I guess.
Things I think need to be fixed:
Better alotment of spells that make the duskblade do what they were designed to do: cast touch spells as part of a melee attack. They were a great idea, just poor execution.

1) Give them more touch spells
2) Give them more damaging touch spells (duskblades suck in melee combat despite the combat casting, the armored mage, and the full BAB)
3) Give them more rays. They get Seeking Ray which makes other rays awesome (+2 to hit!)
4) Open them up to more metamagic feats somehow. Either make new ones for +0 that are good for spont-casters or something. Duskblades aren't fighters and shouldn't be taking feats as if they were: they can hit well enough as it is, they just need to hit harder.

Miles Invictus
2008-02-20, 02:12 AM
the next two hours revolved around whether or not to spend 5000 gp to summon a bhargest to feast on its soul so it didn't get resurrected again).

I like your group's style. :smallamused:

Draco18s
2008-02-20, 02:25 AM
...the Cleric of Peleor was the one suggesting it.
The teifling, the artificer-warforged, the half-silver dragon (me), and the ranger were against it. For different reasons, but against it. One of the reasons (and the best) was that we'd killed his pet cleric.

Jon--whatever he was at the time (man to have most character deaths in one campaign) didn't care one way or the other, so long as he got to keep it's (second) head. Along side the first one.

Yakk
2008-02-20, 09:47 AM
That should all really be considered the player's problem, then. It's the player's responsibility to manage his or her own resources. Sure, it's up to the DM to offer challenging fights and, when necessary, be gentle and forgiving. But past a certain point, it becomse plain coddling to bend over backwards because a player isn't making the appropriate efforts in resource management.

Your point would be strong if D&D was about DMs vs PCs.

Having a class who can generate X power per game day is, in a sense, balanced. But if that player can concentrate that power into any given round at will, then this generates a lack of balance even if they are no more powerful, per game day, than anyone else in the party.

D&D has a problem with novas -- lots of classes can do it. You can see it happen in adventures when the mooks leading up to a boss are longer, more involved fights than the boss fight.

We did a throw-down adventure the other day -- the room full of shadows was a longer fight, because burning nova to take them out wasn't worth the bother. When we reached the boss fight, it was worth it to go nova: the fight was over in half the time of a mook fight, because the power level of the group went way up from burning excess resources.

Due to this ability to "go nova", balancing encounters gets harder: every encounter has to be just hard enough to force the players to burn "nova resources", but not to hard that when they reach the later hard fights the players won't have the resources to deal with it.

And if you arrive at the hard fight with too much resources, after burning through the resources required to defeat the encounter and you have lots of power in researve, it feels ... sort of cheap. The fight, in a sense, wasn't "hard" because you still have a bunch of nova resources left.

On the other hand, if the players miscalculate and through half of the resources you planned for them to have at the boss fight, when they meet the boss they could be utterly screwed.

Now, the DM could dynamically change the challenge of the encounters based on how much resources the players have, but that's serious coddling. "If you are weaker because you screw up, magically the bosses you fight are weaker!"

The exact same power level with less nova has less problems. You can budget their power easier, because the nova factor has less impact on play.


More to the point: Difficulty in predicting when it's safe to go nova is the primary balancing factor in the very concept. When the technique can frequently and safely be used with abandon, you lose the very sense of drama the concept is supposed to create. Additionally, it begins to overshadow the classes that have limited or no capacity to go nova themselves. The technique should be used rarely and in most cases restricted to last resorts.

Look: I want boss fights to be dramatic and difficult. That means I have to either make novas not work on boss fights, or make them so much tougher than anything else that you have to go nova in order to stand a chance.

And novas are one-off things. If I miscalculate how strong the nova is, either way, the boss fight either slaughters the players or it is instantly poofed half way through the nova.

Neither of these are good things, dramatically.

Having a character be able to go "nova" to a limited extent -- ie, be 25% to 100% more effective on a single round of combat than the average one, for a limited number of rounds per day -- isn't that bad. But a character able to seriously go nova surpasses that, and generally is 200% to 500%+ more powerful.

These balance problems aren't insurmountable, but they are problems.

Saph
2008-02-20, 10:09 AM
Duskblades can't "nova strike" until they have access to third level spells.

Yes they can. They can start to nova at 3rd-level, and can do it reliably from 5th-level.

5th-level duskblade:

1st-level spells: True Strike, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shocking Grasp, Resist Energy, whatever you like for the fifth one.

2nd-level spells: Bull's Strength

Use a two-handed weapon like a +1 greatsword, along with Power Attack. We'll say you have a 16 Strength.

First round of combat: Cast Bull's Strength and get into attack position.

Second round of combat: Move into melee. Use your Quick Cast ability to do a quickened True Strike. Use your Arcane Channelling ability with a Shocking Grasp spell. Your attack bonus is +26, so you can only miss on a 1.

Total damage: 2d6 (weapon) + 5d6 (spell) + 8 (strength and weapon enhancement) + 10 (full Power Attack) = average of 42.5 damage.

Along with the rest of the party, that's quite capable of killing a CR 5 enemy in one round.

Duskblades are pretty well balanced, really. They're one of the only classes that's neither awesome nor underpowered at every level from 1 to 20.

- Saph

Starbuck_II
2008-02-20, 12:01 PM
He won't let you play a Duskblade for reasoning we don't have. I suggest conceding the point, and fill a relatively empty roll in your party by playing a Batman Wizard.

Nah, we have 2 clerics for the utility/save or lose spells (Hold Person is only 2nd level Cleric spell).
The Warmage can cover some battlefield control with my help.

Now we finally did *10 yearsw later* part.


Basically, Epic Level people attacked our town and castle we lived at. We survived (they were just playing with us). Apparently, the superiors did'nt inform us that they had some special crystal that could be used for something really big.
We read all the book in everyones room for clues and discovered this (after everyone was dead).

I assume they were Epic (unless lv 17 or something) because they used 9th level spells.

Anyway so we followed them to a portal taking us to another plane with a city (high powered city like Sigil, you can buy anything there).

After some clue searching, we decided to split up for a while and return 10 years later.
So basically, we did some things inbetween: I mastered a few levels in Wild Mage).

I've decided on between Chilling Tentacles or Wall of Fire (thats acts like Flame Strike as 1/2 is not elemental). That way I can help in Battlefield control.

I've built a really good 2nd Tank too. AC 37 (being 1/2 Dragon helps).
Since we have a 1/2 Celestial in light armor Fighter (who I somehow doubt he has enough AC to Tank really well); we might need it.
I have 137 hps so my hp isn't that bad (it helps that 1/2 Dragon boosts con, I increase con by level and have +4 con Item).

Using scrolls of Mirror Image/Displacement, I think I can make a decent one.

valadil
2008-02-20, 12:13 PM
Things I think need to be fixed:
Better alotment of spells that make the duskblade do what they were designed to do: cast touch spells as part of a melee attack. They were a great idea, just poor execution.


I haven't actually played a duskblade yet, but I'd think that a well picked bloodline feat would help their casting out tremendously. They are spontaneous casters, right?

Adumbration
2008-02-20, 01:25 PM
Oh dear... I just found a feat that would break Duskblade for good at lower levels. I wasn't looking for it, I just found it while looking through Crystalkeep.

Complete Arcane. Precocious Apprentice - feat. Requirement is Arcane spellcaster level 1, spellcasting ability 15+ and First level only. Gives you +2 on spellcraft checks, and once a day, you can cast a second level spell if you succeed on a Caster level check vs DC 8.

2nd level spell with a Duskblade on the first level...

I am so not going to take that feat when I play Duskblade.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-02-20, 01:39 PM
Oh dear... I just found a feat that would break Duskblade for good at lower levels. I wasn't looking for it, I just found it while looking through Crystalkeep.

Complete Arcane. Precocious Apprentice - feat. Requirement is Arcane spellcaster level 1, spellcasting ability 15+ and First level only. Gives you +2 on spellcraft checks, and once a day, you can cast a second level spell if you succeed on a Caster level check vs DC 8.

2nd level spell with a Duskblade on the first level...

I am so not going to take that feat when I play Duskblade.

Sure, but don't they loose it's effect(except the +@ on spellcraft) when they learn to cast 2nd level spells themselves? If so it just burns long term power in favour for short term power. And how unbalancing is being able to cast one level 2 spell per day anyway?

Yakk
2008-02-20, 02:01 PM
No, you keep a bonus 2nd level spell slot.

tyrion
2008-02-20, 02:19 PM
the precoious apprentice feat is pretty handy, and if your using phb2 you can always retrain it for something else later, there are alot of feats that this kind of retraining helps out with, if you've got a DM who's not afraid to let you do a bit of "settling in" when a party's only been at it for a level or two

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-20, 02:19 PM
Oh dear... I just found a feat that would break Duskblade for good at lower levels. I wasn't looking for it, I just found it while looking through Crystalkeep.

Complete Arcane. Precocious Apprentice - feat. Requirement is Arcane spellcaster level 1, spellcasting ability 15+ and First level only. Gives you +2 on spellcraft checks, and once a day, you can cast a second level spell if you succeed on a Caster level check vs DC 8.

2nd level spell with a Duskblade on the first level...

I am so not going to take that feat when I play Duskblade.
Oh noes, Ghoul Touch or Scorching Ray (at lowered Caster Level) at level 1. Duskblades' level 2 spells suck. At best they're on par with every other arcane caster, and it's a really poor level for damage spells.

Actually, Dimension Hop has abuse potential, but then, I just love the idea of stabbing someone and teleporting them over a cliff.

Draco18s
2008-02-20, 03:14 PM
I haven't actually played a duskblade yet, but I'd think that a well picked bloodline feat would help their casting out tremendously. They are spontaneous casters, right?

The game I'm in doesn't have access to those. As far as Google has been able to tell me either:
Bloodline feats are from Dragon Magazine, and thus not legal in our group (I made the argument for the one feat, it's the first DrMag thing to have ever been allowed).
Bloodline feats are from Forgotten Realms, and thus not legal in our group. With knowledge of Pun-Pun I don't think FR will be legal unless someone runs a FR game.

For my duskblade I'll be attempting to get one of those runestaves from Magic Item Compendium (basically, it adds spells to your spells known list if your a spont caster, for prepared it acts as a small list of spont-castables as long as you burn a spell ah la Cleric sponting). Tomorrow I get my first chance at convincing the DM to let me get one with Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, Greater Magic Weapon. I've also got Truestrike written down for it, as it's not on my spells known list (having had no guides I made a large number of "bad choices").

jgmaurer
2008-02-24, 05:14 AM
It's almost impossible to break a game by building a powerful PC. The DM can always just throw more powerful enemies at you.

The only real way to break a game is to build a PC that's relatively much more powerful then the other PCs. Even then, if a weak PC has an interesting niche which other PCs ignore (party face, scout, meat shield, etc) you can still have a very fun game.




This is the EXACT problem a campaign I'm part of right now has.

skywalker
2008-02-25, 01:06 AM
Draco, have you somehow missed shocking grasp and vampiric touch? What about seeking ray?

Also, what have you got against ray of exhaustion or enfeeblement?


To starbuck, does the DM know that you learn very limited spells?

Draco18s
2008-02-25, 01:11 AM
Draco, have you somehow missed shocking grasp and vampiric touch?

My duskblade currently only has 2nd level spells.


What about seeking ray?

I love Seeking Ray. Too bad there are so few Rays the duskblade gets to make the kinkyness of Seeking Ray good. And because it's a Ray spell you can't use it with Arcane Channeling.


Also, what have you got against ray of exhaustion or enfeeblement?

They can be good in situations. Depends on what you're fighting. Great first-round cast if it works (or second if you start with seeking ray), after that it's better to go in swinging, blasting things to bits with Arcane Channeling.

My gripe with the duskblade is the lack of options. There's one way to make a good duskblade and many many pitfalls.

skywalker
2008-02-25, 01:45 AM
Shocking grasp is first level, I think.

I always thought the best part about seeking ray was that it added to your subsequent seeking ray attacks.

Draco18s
2008-02-25, 01:47 AM
Shocking grasp is first level, I think.

It is. Don't know why it isn't on my spell list then. Hmm.


I always thought the best part about seeking ray was that it added to your subsequent seeking ray attacks.

Totally is. :)
The downside is the lack of other Ray spells. ;)

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 06:44 AM
Draco, have you somehow missed shocking grasp and vampiric touch? What about seeking ray?

Also, what have you got against ray of exhaustion or enfeeblement?


To starbuck, does the DM know that you learn very limited spells?

He played one, but only up to leve 6 in a campaign (Duskblade's sweet spot) so he probably has a skewed view of them.

Draco18s
2008-02-25, 11:10 AM
He played one, but only up to leve 6 in a campaign

If you mean me, I'll be honest here. Not up to level 7 (I'm 7th *prod's your 6*). I started here. Campaign is far older than the character (they started at....2nd I think, and are up to 8th), only reason I'm actually in the game is one of the older players quit (being all three deaths the party has had....you kinda lose interest, but to be fair the first one was a critted arrow to a wizard). And I'm not saying the Duskblade is underpowered, they get some good stuff and are capable of being broken (Enlightened fist + Whirlwind), but they lack options.

Fighters have a billion options to design with, though typically in combat do one thing (and I wanted to play something that did more that beat face). I hate managing spells as a wizard or cleric (too many options that can change at least once a session) and the massive spell list available to a sorcerer is hard to pick "the new spell" quickly. Duskblade had a small spell list and was a fighter-type, so I thought I'd try it out. Know how many of the "it's a trap!" spells I have? Three. (By "it's a trap" I'm reffering to the Handbook guide on Gleemax and their description of why to get or not get a spell). Because of this Duskblades have severly limited options in combat, falling back to a very boring "I hit it."

Adumbration
2008-02-25, 11:16 AM
I was playing the Duskblade the other day at level one, and I enjoyed it. I think - at least at the level I was playing - Duskblade had far more options when compared to other classes. I used Color Spray on clusters of enemies for battlefield control (and once against a monster that almost killed me. The only reason I got away was becouse it was afraid of light. Yay for Arcane Attunement!), True Strike on those high AC enemies and Ray of Frost when it seemed that enemies were getting away.

Draco18s
2008-02-25, 02:48 PM
Color spray is nice. Until you reach things that have more than 5 hit dice.

Reminds me of another World's Largest Dungeon fight. First (Region A) boss was a giant rat of somekind who had Fly, Invisibility, and Color Spray and had a higher AC than most of us could hit. My half-dragon (and his 2-3 hit dice) didn't stand a chance to color spray.

Best part: the fight went so long I got actions! I grappled that f-ing rat, four more people held down limbs, and the rogue started cuop de gracing.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 02:56 PM
If you mean me...


I meant my DM, but you too if it fits.

Draco18s
2008-02-25, 02:58 PM
I meant my DM, but you too if it fits.

The "he" was a little ambiguous with all the quote text (one referring to me, one referring to the DM). Trim those quotes!

stainboy
2008-02-25, 03:30 PM
If you want to prove duskblades aren't overpowered, stat up two characters:

1) the duskblade you actually want to play, and...

2) a straight-RAW optimized melee cleric.

Then ask him which character is more powerful. (Warning: May result in the cleric class being house-ruled out of the game.)